Brown Girls Do It Too - It's Getting Hairy

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

FYI: It's an Indian braid, not a French braid! Poppy and Rubina dissect the hair on their head... and everywhere else! Why is there an expectation to remove it, how can brown girls embrace their hair and why can hair be political?Have a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail] you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. I love your hair today, babes. Oh yeah? I brushed it. I was talking about your sideburns, mate. Actually, you know what? No one talks about the postpartum sideburns. I've got this curly little bit right here. I've got a curly little bit that I can't show you right now.

Dear listener, as you guessed, this podcast contains strong language and adult content. It also contains lots and lots of hair. When was the last time you had sex? Because when brown girls get down, the world tends to have a little something to say. And we've got something to say right back. This is a podcast about sex. Why we can't stop thinking about it, talking about it, and doing it.

Brown girls do it too. I'm Poppy and to me my hair is everything. I'm Rubina and to me my hair is dead skin. Is it actually dead skin? Yeah, it's dead skin. Dead skin? Yeah. Well, I think so.

No, no, because there's keratin in hair and nails. You know your hair grows when you dine. The keratin is a protein. The hair you see on every part of your body contains dead cells. Dead skin cells. It's dead skin cells. So yeah, I'm right. Dead skin.

Okay, fine. We have a question. Will our hair be always on our mind even if it's not on our legs? Or fanny or chin or nipple or underarm? Bum? Knee? Bumhole. Knee.

I did have to say when we were, obviously we would be half naked when we were doing the show. Yeah. And you talk about your partner not liking your hairy knees or he's not being, as in he's not that fond of your knees, hairy knees. And I was like, that's an odd, it's like someone, you know when you meet someone you see like a hairy elbow,

you never see a hairy elbow. No, you never see a hairy elbow. I've got hairy knees, they're quite special. And when I go for a wax, they do tell me that. They're like, this is special, you're like a hairy elbow. You never see a hairy elbow. No, you never see a hairy elbow. I've got hairy knees. They're quite special. And when I go for a wax, they do tell me that. They're like, this is special. You're a special human being. Do the aunties insist on like waxing it off? Yeah, of course. They're not just going to leave me with hairy knees, are they, Pops?

Of course. Well, you might be a feminine. Well, exactly. What does it mean to be a feminist? Even if you can be a feminist, you take hair off. But like, you might be like, no, I really want to keep my hair. What? You want me to wax all of my legs and just leave the hair on my knees? No no no what I mean is you might not choose to do your legs at all. I do it sometimes yeah if I can have them bothered. I'm really glad we're talking about this because I spend on average on average 75 to 80 pounds not once a month once every two months getting everything so let me start from the top.

That's cheap 75 to 80 that's cheap. 75 to 80. That's cheap. Okay. Well to me it's not. And I'll tell you why. What do you get done for that? Okay. So eyebrows threaded. That's about six pounds. Well I go to the one in Clapham and she's got white customers so she fucking raises the prices. Yeah. So it's not like a, you know when you go to like an Asian place and it's all Asian, the price is down. Gentrification price up. Eyebrows. Mustache. Threaded mustache? Wax mustache. I a hot wax now and then because my hair is so fine, she has to thread it, she has to thread it on top of the hot wax.

Yeah, then a friend of mine gave me a complex about my sideburns. I used to wear a head scarf so they would come out. So now I get these done. That's a hot wax, they fucking kill. Have you had a wax recently? You look very hairless today. Yeah, I look hairless. So I did this these done. That's a hot wax. They fucking kill. Have you had a wax recently? You look very hairless. Yeah, I look hairless. So I did this BAFTA thing quite recently and I couldn't afford

£75 or £80 to get everything done. So I just did face. Just face. Good. So I just did face. If you had the money, that's the way to go. That's the way to go. And then going down the body, I used to get my nips done, but I don't really. Did you? Yeah, but I stopped now.

Nipple hair is like quite like strong hair it's like pub hair. It can be like pub hair. Oh yeah yeah yeah there was like one straight you just plucked that shit out. No but I was there anyway. Oh fine. I was there anyway and I was like auntie do you mind. So you're already holding the wax. Yeah just drop some on the nipples. You know what I mean. So from about 15, 16 when I got my period and brought pubes, I basically used my dad's razor. Classic orange bit one, everyone does it. I shaved and I shaved using the same blunt razor and I didn't have an older sister or

exactly or someone just now. I'm like, I hate it. I wish I could go back. I've got like not bumps, the bumps have gone to like dark patches. And then I started shaving my vagina. Now something about vagina hair. How old are you when you shaved your vagina? I was probably like 16, 17, 18. I got my period quite late. So my body developed quite later. And so I was shaving. And why were you doing that? Who were you shagging when you were 16, 17?

Why were you doing that? Because I thought it's just something you did. It's all the images that I saw about being skinny and then being hairless. And I was like, exactly, really good question. My sisters didn't even see me naked. And also my family are quite traditional. So even in the house, you weren't expected to wear a scarf on your head,

obviously, but you'd have to wear something covering your chest. So like I wore a silo chemise. No one was seeing that shit. I went to school, I wore a silo chemise, I wore a head scarf. No one was seeing it. And yet I did it. And then I was shaving my hair down there.

Now the hair down there, the way it grows, it's really angry with you. And I noticed it was much thicker down there than it was everywhere, anywhere else. I actually started waxing really late. I started waxing when I was 25. My hair history, 16, 17 to 25, there's an auntie in Bromley Bible. She's got a little waxing

salon. I go, she does all my bits, but I'm still shaving down there. And then she's like, why are you shaving? You shouldn't be shaving. I'll wax it for you. And because I'm like, oh, shut up, shame. Oh, auntie, you can't see my vagina. She's like, okay, don't worry. If you're too embarrassed to be naked. She's a Bengali lady. So she literally was an auntie. As in she wasn't an auntie, but was an auntie. She said, I'll get my assistant to do it. This assistant hated my guts. Let me explain to you what she did. Yeah. For those of, for those people who don't understand how waxing works, I had a bush down there. I shaved and shaved and shaved and got to the point where it was really long, really

long rug. Cause it always comes back stronger. It always comes back so much stronger and it was a rug and I just left it. I was like, I can't do this anymore. I left it. Down there, this bitch on my thick hair uses massive, massive. She can do a strip wax on the, on the pooch. Everyone knows that. And then she took it off really slowly. And then to, you know, you know when like Asian women, when they immediately put the finger down and press the pain. I, to this day, to this day, Rubina Pabani have not experienced that much pain in my life. She actually gave me PTSD. I thought if this is something that women do, she obviously was doing it wrong and she was going, going against the hair growth and whatever. I was crying, I was in so much pain.

It was unreal. And I think to this day, you know, I say that I'm a feminist, but the thing that I do that I hate myself for, and I hate myself for, is the fact that I get these waxes, because men never have to get these waxes. I go on dates with guys and I'm like, you've got a chest of hair,

you've got a rug underneath here. And yet I, I have to spend 75 pounds, which you know, you said it was cheap, but like 75 pounds every two months. And I know girls spend more money. And I'm trying to get laser, trying to save for laser, which I say every year, I know. But I say every year because it's over a thousand pounds.

It's the price of a mortgage to get my hair removed. Yeah, the mortgage. And it's insane. And it's like, how are we still doing this? How are we still doing this? Yeah, I remember. So I was, I'm quite hairy kid. I got hairy legs. I think I've got hair growing on every bit of my body. I don't know a hairless part of my body. I'm trying to think of one now for you right now, but I got nothing. Maybe my cheeks are hairless.

I'm trying to think of other bits of my body that are hairless. It's like not really that many. There's probably like a small fuzz on the cheeks too. But I remember it was, I went on holiday to Florida when I was 11 and my mom, so I was 11. And my mom was like, if you want, we can go to Jenny auntie's house and she can wax your legs. And I was like, why?

Did you have a period? Because I was starting school. I had my period about 12, but I had hairy legs. Like I had hairy legs. Oh, okay. And my mom pointed them out to me and said, we can get to Jenny auntie's. I was like, okay, yeah, I'll do that.

Why not? I'm going to start secondary school and I'm going to wear a skirt. So I might as well get my legs waxed. And Jenny auntie's is just a house. And so I lay on Jenny auntie's bed and she waxed my legs. And I remember being like, Whoa, my legs look amazing. And I was, I was that, like, I was that age where I was like suddenly had seen

a switch flip on my body. Cause I was like, wow, I just kind of thought like the fuzzy hair thing was my body. And then I was actually, you can transform your body really quickly. And that to this day, to this day, as you like to say, remains like quite cool. When I go for a wax of any sort, when I look in the mirror, I'm like, wow, I look completely different. But right now I'm not rocking a six o'clock shadow, because obviously I don't shave my face,

but I have hair on my upper lip, right? It's coming through. It's just coming through. I let it come through so that I can wax it myself, so that I can catch it myself. Do you wax, do you wax stuff here? I wax my upper lip, yeah. I wax my own upper lip and I wax here, this little goatee. This goatee grows strong for me, man. Oh yes, so I keep the goate I wax my upper lip and I wax here this little goatee.

This goatee grows strong for me. Oh yeah, so I keep the goatee. Do you keep this? Yeah, because anything below here it's just like starts to get all here and here and here. I mean, if it was here, I'd probably remove it. So my sisters who I love, they are brutal with me sometimes. They gave me these little shavy things to get rid of the fuzz on my face. Oh God. And I'm like, aren't you worried if you start that shit, you're just going to carry on? Well, this is the thing. How do I stop this? And then I'm like, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll do laser. And I'm like, it's still feeding into this system. I'm just really fucking lazy. Like I don't have the money, the time or the willing to

do this. I just don't. And while I respect it and do it sometimes, like I'll randomly do it if I'm going on holiday or do it if I feel like it or do it if I think someone can take care of the kids for like two hours, it does cost me 120 quid to get the kind of- Oh, wow. I used to do the like the Hollywood getting rid of everything. I get the Hollywood. I used to get rid of everything. And then I'm like, I'm not fucking doing that.

There's just nothing more demeaning than having to like lie on your front, open your butt cheeks and let somebody wax your asshole. Like I just don't want to do that anymore. I'm done. I'm done with that. So not doing that. And also I think it's because I've given birth quite recently. I don't want someone to touch my body like that. I'm like, no, I've got over touched. But what you see

in there sometimes being like, wow, man, humans, we've evolved to do all this cool shit. And this is what I have chosen and paid to do with my time. What the fuck? That's why I'm stopping doing it. I'm not going to get Hollywood ever again. I'm like, no, I can just trim my pubes. My pubes fine. It's fine. Sometimes they say to you afterwards, they're like, oh, you must feel so fresh now. And I'm like, I didn't not feel fresh. It's like a difference between dirty, which is like hairy, to clean. I'm like, fuck you, man. I was clean when I turned up. Is she white? Is she a white lady saying that to you? Oh, I go to all different places. It's never really bad when they're like

doing your eyebrows and you've gone in for eyebrows and then they join me to do a mustache. And you're like, I didn't just come here to feel bad about myself. Yeah. No, they don't. Did anyone you point out to you when you're a teenager, like, do you think some of that insecurity comes from, cause I had an older brother who would rinse the fuck out of me. He'd be like, your bidder is bigger than mine. You're fucking unibrow from Sesame Street. That one from unibrow, Elmo, whatever. He would like cast the shit out of me. And so I was just like really self-conscious of it. Like always. Like, I I mean he still kind of does it now. The other day he said to me

that he was like you know you've got blackheads. You know there's stuff that can help you with your blackheads. What's a blackhead? You don't know what a blackhead is? No. It's a clogged pore around your nose. You know you sometimes get like blackheads there. I can't see a single blackhead. That's because I got the clogged pure strips.

And you're a munch. And I did the clogged pure strips. I like, it's so fucking painful though. You put the strip and then you peel off and it pulls out the dirt from your pores. Oh wow. I can't see anything but clearly it's worked. Am I encouraging it? But I, it's funny because when I was growing up, my cousins, male and female, we never gave each other complexes about our hair on our bodies. I learned to do all the hair shit kind of later on in life, like not even uni, but like when I was like 25,

that's when I started waxing things. That's when I started like, also the other thing controversially, as an Asian girl, I'm not that hairy. I have hair, but like, this is all my natural, this is not waxed. And even the hair on my head, like my mom's not a hairy woman, right?

All the hair is concentrated on my vulva from years and years of shaving. But I get really, Asian men, Turkish men, they're allowed to be hairy. When you think about like certain nationalities, you know, Iraqi, Kurdish, Turkish, Asian, Arab, they are hairy and hairy scene is sexy. Right? Virile. Virile. Women, and this is so bad that I'm admitting this to you. Do you remember the whole hair positivity? You'd be on the tube and then there'd be a woman like-

Underarm. Underarm. That repulsed me because I was so used to internalizing this patriarchy. This like, oh my God, this is just, what's going on here. And I'm trying to get better at it, but it's like bad habits. It's like, this does not look good because I've got hair under here. So I need to get rid of it. And it comes from a place of clearly insecurity.

It comes from a place of really believing that the way to be beautiful is to be hairless. When actually this hair is on our body for scientific, evolutionary, biological reasons. It is to keep us warm. It's good for sweating. You know having a hair... Protect us from bacteria. Having a hairy vulva, it prevents infection. Why are we getting rid of it? And it's interesting. It's basically the pornification of the world, especially when you think about it. So I always

get what's the one that you get rid of all the way? Hollywood. So I get a Hollywood. Why am I getting a Hollywood? Why do I want my vagina to look like a 12 year old vagina? Sorry, what's happening in Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen? What is happening in Hollywood? Also, I can't think of anything more lame than a British person walking into a British sign and be like, I would like a Hollywood. What's it called here?

Why isn't it a I would like an Oxford Street or something? I don't know. What would it be? What would it even be? I'd like a London. I would like a BAFTA. I'd like a Milton Keynes. Just lines. A roundabout. Lots of roundabouts. Why is hair so political?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think, obviously, the black community have a big thing about black hair and that being kind of a big identifier of their culture and of their pride, of their self-love. We have not achieved any self-love with the way that we think about our hair, but we also have very similar, distinct hair. And people don't think that, right? They just think Asian people and white people same hair. They kind of don't really differentiate between them because they think that our hair is the same. It's not. It's not. Our hair is very, very thick and sometimes can be very fine. It's very strong. I heard that like, you know, the global hair industry is like all owned by Asian people.

So we know that it's like a big part of who we are. Also, Asian women love long haired other Asian women. They love long haired other Asian women. If you cut off your hair as an Asian woman, it's seen as like a rejection of your beauty and your culture. Like it's seen that. I'm going to be real. Like there is something about like. It's the Chotli. Do you know Chotli? The word Chotli. No. It's a braid like the Indian braid. The one, the single Chotli or the two Chotlis if you're young. Yeah. Which is like,

that is the symbol of like being a proper Asian girl. Like the great. We call it the suti. So my cousin, who was like, we were the same age and she was like my partner, she had like long hair because long hair was coveted. It was seen as beautiful. Your beauty is in your hair. Actually, when you're the first Asian girl I met and you're going to laugh that I thought had like punk hair.

That's how basic bitch I am. Because you had a fringe. No, but you didn't have a fringe. You had like a high fringe. You had like a fringe. No, but you didn't have a fringe. You had a super short fringe. I had a high fringe. I had a Spanish fringe. And I was like, wow.

And even Roya had long, sort of flowing locks. All Asian girls do. If you meet an Asian girl with different hair, you're always like, what's wrong with you? Since we have started this, you look at every BBC Sounds clip, your hair has gone through a bit of a new revolution. Oh my god. I change my hair style all the time, specifically to rebel against this idea that Asian women have this hair attachment that is unbelievably stupid. I'm sorry, it just is. And it makes

all the other women feel really bad. The other thing I think is really interesting, sorry, just to go back to the Chotli thing, right? You know, the braid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was paying attention. For me, that was like a really Indian thing. And I went into school one day with a, you know, my mom braided my hair and I had the Chotli and I went in and some girl came up to me, she was like, oh my God, I love your French braid. And I was like, French braid. The French did not do this. Mama Pavani did this actually. And it was always in my head though. Anyone says like, I've got a French plait. I'm like, fuck you, it's not a French plait. What do you mean French plait?

These white cultural appropriators. Have you seen on TikTok the other day, the clean girl aesthetic? Oh yeah. You know, these girls that are just like, fucking slicking it back. And I was like, bitch, my mom has been gramming me by the Chotli and putting fucking double amla all over my hair and going to school with like just like just greased up and then Vaseline all over my face because that was the only moisturising cream we owned. It was unbelievable. And teenagers, like I know a lot of teenagers who shaved their eyebrows. Like Asian girls to teenagers shaved their eyebrows and then drew them in with pencil because they were so ashamed of having these thick eyebrows.

And now look at them. I know. I did my work experience. You know in year 10 you do work experience. I did it in a maternity ward and there was this receptionist that shaved her eyebrows and then drew the eyebrows here. Oh hiya. Because apparently it makes you look...

So she was in shock. Apparently it makes you look young. I think it comes from... You might not like this, but the hair on our heads is beautiful. In fact, you've got the most compliments from me and the team. I loved your hair before. Like I love the punk cuts you came with. But like when I go to a party, it's always Asian girls, Arab girls, Iranian, Iraqi, that's that region of girls where I'm looking at hair and I'm like, Oh my God, her hair.

Can I just say I really just I'm the complete opposite of you. Like when I've been out with you and you've complimented a girl's hair, it's because she's had it long. She's had it tussled in these really weird curls. For me, quite fake. Yeah, I love it. And really like manufactured and not natural in any way, but like has that aesthetic that looks good.

And I'm like, I don't like that shit. Like that's not what I'm into. That's not how I'd wear my hair. It's not what I like. It's what your auntie's in your mouth. Like longer hair was given respect, right? So if you have long hair, then you're pretty. I basically had-

You're also much more vulnerable. What do you mean? Well, there's that whole thing of like, you know, someone could like pull your hair, pull you out, pull you away. That's why the Chotli is also like a really interesting Indian thing. Because like a lot of Bollywood films would be like pulled from the from the hair and your mother in law would pull you from the hair, pull you around. What's that? Yes, my mother did plenty of that.

What's that film with them Cardinal and Shahrukh Khan where she's a tomboy and has short hair. She cuts her hair. And then she starts with short hair. And then when she has her transformation, it's long hair. So like a lot of it is the fact that look, we might not lie the hair on our fannies, but like the hair that we were given, we show off with it. I do think hair is everything from Fleabag. It is.

Whether you like it short, whether you like the short girl aesthetic or the punk aesthetic, sorry I'm trying to say I made you laugh at myself. Whatever it is, hair is a lot. I mean, you definitely have said multiple times in this podcast that if you were to cut your hair, you said you do feel like there'd be nothing left of you. That's like, it's really, which is obviously bullshit because I've got loads of personality, but I attached a lot. I attached a lot to my hair. When I was maybe 20, I was living abroad and a friend said, oh, you can get your hair cut free at this like fashion salon thing. Just go and get it done for When I was maybe 20, I was living abroad and a friend said, oh, you can get your hair cut free at this like fashion salon thing.

Just go and get it done for free. And I was like, yeah, great. And then I was like, yeah, I'll do it. And I went in and he was like, how would you feel if I took it all off? And I was like, well, go bold. I'm on my year abroad. No, like just super short buzz cut number one. And I was on my year abroad, like, fuck it, I'll just do it. And so I had a like a buzz one cut that he then died ginger. That's what I love about you though, because you're so adventurous.

And it was mental. I did this and I did it and at the time I was like, wow, this is so punk. And someone posted a picture of me on Facebook after it. And then a guy, random guy who I didn't know that well, but was a Facebook friend underneath wrote, oh, that's such a shame you got rid of all your hair. Actually under that picture, I was like, Whoa, what did your mom say? Did she see that haircut? She did. Yeah. That was what that was also the summer I came home with like short hair and a lip piercing. She was like, what has happened to my child? What has happened to my child? But I felt really free actually, because I think that I'd try not to attach too much value to my hair. I actually tried to not attach too much value to beauty, clothes, fashion, skin, anything. And also maybe because I think

I have kids, you know, I also want them to not think that hair is everything. And also I don't want them to only fancy girls with long hair. If that's right. I don't want them to only fancy girls with long hair. I want them to see that you could be all, being a woman and being beautiful comes in many shapes and sizes. And unfortunately being a British Asian woman and the ideas of beauty that we all still project on each other is one thing. Yeah, it's very true. Especially with the hair. It's very 1997 and I completely agree with you. I completely agree with everything you said but. I'm a feminist but. I'm not cutting my hair. I'm not cutting my hair.

Yeah. But you like having long hair because long hair is a faff because I'm growing my hair just as an experiment and also because all the Asian girls love me now. You're finally in! Love it. Brown girls do it too. Do you see a world where to you, hair is everything? So you do what those Asian girls do. You tong, you straighten, you mask it. You know, you, you, you.

I'm so glad tong is a verb by the way, cause I didn't know if I got it right. No, no, no, you did. You really did. Um, you got rid of your split ends. You went to the hairdressers every six weeks. Like you went the whole nine yards. Do you see a world that you do that? I think if I'm honest, if I did all of that, I still don't think I'd be able to achieve this, like the high standards. I don't think I'll ever be able to be like the archetypal pretty British Asian girl. So I don't even try. What is the Asian girl aesthetic to you? You.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You're way cooler than what I imagine the Asian girl aesthetic is. But what is it to you? It's kind of like kind of this like perfect, you know, everything manicured eyebrows. Everything is just perfect. You know, sometimes you meet girls, they smell like the nice handbag, they smell nice. Their eyelashes are like perfect. Their eyebrows are perfect. The way they carry themselves perfect. They're just like this feminine kind of walking, ethereal being. Sometimes you meet them. Sometimes you meet these women. And they have their little, it's a handbag. Like I just, I'm not going to be a handbag

woman. I've never been a handbag woman. I'm a backpack woman. But like they walk into those spaces and sometimes when I meet a British Asian woman and I look at them and they have all of that shit and I just think, oh, my mom would love you. My mom would love, my mom would have loved for me to end up like you. And then I feel bad that I never already was that. So do you think that? Although she's having a long hair too now, so I'm just... Do you think on a deeper level it's like a rejection of that girl? A rejection of that

girl that maybe secretly that your mom wants? And that's why you rebel with the blank hair style? Yeah, I think so. Maybe. But I also think, I don't know, I think the way that you carry yourself in public is a real message to everybody else. And I think if all of these women are aspiring to be this other thing, I should try and carry something else. Because I think it's not really fair, like being a woman now. So I think I'm always like, well, how do we make everyone else feel good about themselves? It's like, maybe just don't, don't do that. Like, this is what I love about you, though, when I first met you and your punk hairstyles. I had a fringe from you.

I know. But that's what I'm trying to say to you. Like my Asian girl aesthetic, in fact, my world, in terms of what I deemed to be conventionally pretty and beautiful, was predominantly from Asian girls. And even from white models who tended to have very long hair. You know, Alexa Chung probably got the lob the other day, but do you know what I mean? So when I met you, you were different to me in

what I thought was the conventional hot girl look. And you challenged that notion. And as I got to know you, I realized how fucking cool you are, how funny you are, how beautiful you are. So in a way, over a long period of time, you've shaken that idea of what it is to be Asian, right? Because we grew up with that girl, that girl who wore the contacts, who did the lip liner, who could afford, well ironing her hair, and then, well, I was ironing my hair, who could afford the straighteners, who could afford the tongs, who had that fucking handbag,

I know exactly what handbag you're talking about, who had the shoes, and like, she looked like a dancer. I was never gonna be that girl. Like, I got five pounds a month for pocket money, and I saved that for the Woolworths Pick & Mix. You say this all the time, being British Asian is a very specific, unique thing. Our experiences of being brown woman growing up in this country is very different to what you always call the Indian Indian or the Bangladesh Indian or the Pakistani Indian. They have a very

different experience. You said something to me, not the other day, you said something to me a few years ago, which was an off the cuff remark for you, but I felt it was a compliment for me. But you said something like, you just get ready quickly. Like sometimes if you care, you can, if you don't, you just don't. Like I know I look like I care. I often don't. I often turn up to Zooms in bathrobes and my pajamas, which is very unprofessional. Yes. And that's a whole other thing. But no, I love how casual you are about it, but that's why the hair thing's interesting. The hair thing's interesting because it's the last thing I hold on to. It's the last thing I hold on to because I genuinely think, and this is lame, but I like my hair. I love

my hair. And yeah, maybe deep down, I think if I got a lob, I wouldn't look as good. Of course, I've got personality and it'd be fine, but it's a security blanket and I hold on to it and I get validation from other people around me, from my family, from the guys I date, from other women, from Instagram, that this hair is part of you. It's who you are. Doing things differently when you're black or white is hard enough. Doing things when you're Asian, when we all want to be homogeneous and be collectivists and be set the same.

It's a whole other different thing. I told you like, Manushe kita kubah, what will people say? That is the mantra that my parents live with, right? So I guess it's like having that variety. You could be the brown girl with the long hair and if it's your security blanket, then that's fine. Yeah, of course. But I guess for me, when I said it was lame, I wish I was exposed to other looks and other options. Yeah. And big up to the Asian girl with the perfect hair and the perfect handbag and the perfect lip liner. It just was never gonna be me.

And I looked up to you for ages and I still think your whole style should be yours and you should own it and you can look like that and be a brown girl, of course. And if you're an Asian girl listening to this and you love your hair and your hair is a really important part of your life, good. I'm glad for you.

That's like a good thing as well. Like just knowing where you stand with that, I guess. I guess also it's like, I was never an emo, obviously, but like those, those brown kids who were emo's or who like rock or who had that different, like imagine growing up when they were growing up, you did just see that one aesthetic. But it's interesting, again, it's like you use the phrase punk like a few times because it's like, it's not, it's alternate. It's an alternate way to be and it's just it's kind of crazy that in 2025 it's still it's like an alternate look like that's weird. And it's just not. But isn't that interesting that sometimes

you feel like all those choices you're making your own. They're absolutely not my own. They're all affected by everything around you that you're not even making a choice anymore. It's absolutely not my own. And that's why I think sometimes it's good to just go and cut off all your hair because then you've done this choice and you can challenge yourself. You can look in the mirror and also guys your hair is going to grow back. We're Asian. It's going to grow back. It'll grow back thick. It'll be nice. for? Like, how do you ask for what you want in bed? Not sure which hole is a goal? Where do anal beads really go? Have you been faking orgasms your whole adult life? Accidentally called your boss daddy? Is your long time love not going down south? For more than just the tip, we're here foraggyney aunties.

Please remember to ask the bill payers permission before calling us Shaggyney aunties not medical professionals and bear no responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. Right, Robina, you ready? Ready. Hi, Shaggyney aunties. Hey, Shaggyney aunties. I have a philosophical question for you both. I think my overwhelming observation is that

there is such an epidemic of avoidant men and I'm realizing a lot of issues are stemming in all cultures and backgrounds. Is this something you think has existed throughout time? Is it a recent modern problem? In my view, it's a huge contributor to the problems we're seeing in dating, relationships and marriage. Why is it we're living in this generation of particularly avoidant men? Or has this always been a problem and women are becoming more aware? Ooh, it is a philosophical question. Define avoidant for me. Basically, they just avoid is the thing is that they avoid talking about their problems.

Yeah, their avoidant attachment style causes a low tolerance for emotional or physical intimacy. Oh, emotional and physical. Okay. Do you have any male single friends? Are they avoidant? I actually don't think that all men are avoidant. I think this is like, obviously, obviously, like it's a, it's a common trait amongst men. They're less likely to talk about their feelings. Maybe they're less interested in like talking intimately. You know, I've talked about like, I'm not me and my partner didn't stay up all night talking about like, you do, you don't feature. We don't know. We don't. that's like a, but I don't always think

it's about them avoiding, avoiding intimacy or avoiding talking about problems. And I don't think it's all men personally. So Well, I think, God, I think avoidant men, it's funny, because I don't really see anyone more than once. So I don't really know. But I think you're quite avoidant. Maybe you're avoiding it's really funny that you say maybe this is another I think I'm avoiding in my life about problems. But that's another podcast for another time. Okay. So my advice to this listener is I can't actually say there's no survey says that men are avoidant because I actually don't know them long enough to discover this. But I do think, okay, let's go, let's strip it back ghosting, which

you know, I fucking a poor, I think that's avoiding confrontation. That's not avoiding confrontation. And I think it's something I learned from my Gen Z sister. Like whenever she would do something that would annoy me or she'd be upset that I'd be upset or angry, she just not pick up the phone. It was incredible. She just wouldn't pick up the phone. So I think because men now can hide under these apps, and it's not just one app, there's like five different apps. So taking it, building on from like the whole ghosting thing, men don't feel the need to owe you an explanation

or justify their behavior. They can just disappear into the ether and just hope for the best, right? I also think, hashtag not all men, but some men. And if you think about male mental health, male suicide, male depression, there is something and I see and I hear this from most of my male friends. There is something about men not really talking to each other. Like, and we did this in Big Boy Energy, like you and I will constantly talk, right? Something about men, it's easier for them to avoid things.

It could be something as simple as like making a plan with another male friend, or it could be something much deeper like actually talking about feelings. I think men do bury their head in the sand. But again, I don't want to generalise. In modern culture, there are a lot of other burdens that men have to carry. And I think as part of that, the pressures on

them to look a certain way to like, a lot of men talk about money, being able to support their partner, stressing about other things that they've that perhaps the kind of real emotional work is always done by women. Yes. And because the men are thinking about something else. And actually, as we kind of have more equality in society, then the burden starts to be shared. Now I'm thinking about the financial issues as well. And you're thinking about the emotional issues as much as me. And we're still very new into that bit of equal relationships. Like it's still not been, it's not been many years since like, women weren't allowed to work, since women weren't allowed to vote. Like it's actually, we're still in that newness

of equality with men and women. So I think sometimes we should give men a little bit of a break. Maybe that's because I've had two sons and I feel like I can see, I can see where this is going for them. I think we should give men a break, but I would just tell this listener,

if they are avoidant, how does she get them talking? Like, what do you do? Do you, it might be that some men, the moment you say, how do you feel, that it made me feel good, they start running, right? They avoid the conversation, they avoid the topic. Or maybe because we've got... It's the paradox of choice, right?

If you don't like this girl or she's asking you about your feelings too much, well, you've got four other girls in your fucking DMs that you can talk to. All the women I love to speak to are really articulate and they love words and they love language. And all the men in my life have other ways to communicate, you know, like doing shit together or like listening to music together and like there's other ways you can connect with somebody that's not just talking. Acts throwing.

Exactly. Talk about your feelings. Talk about your feelings doing something else. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing. I think it's really hard to talk about men in 2025. But I'd be really interested to see where men are going to be in 2050. I want to see where your boys are in 2050. Yeah, that'd be fucking cool. That'd be really interesting. They'll probably just be avoidant again then. It'll just carry on. That's all for now. Thank you very much and thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts,

questions or dilemmas for the Shagny aunties, you can email us at browngirlsdoit2 at bbc.co.uk. Or you can send us a WhatsApp or a voice note to 07968 100 822. Goodbye. Brown Girls Do It Too.