Brown Girls Do It Too - Mummy's Boys with Wajeeh West

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

Poppy is joined by content creator and podcaster Wajeeh West to talk all about mummy's boys - do they still exist, what defines a mummy's boy and who is responsible for creating them. It's a fiery one!Have a message for Poppy? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822.Or email us at [e-mail]. If you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

This is the part where we tell you that this podcast contains strong language and themes of an adult nature. Or, if you're a brown boy, you could just get your mum to do it for you. Lol! Of course you had to say that, but for all the mums out there, we apologise in advance. Why are you apologising on behalf of the mums? Why not? But we gotta look out for the mums. We gotta look out for the mums? We always gotta look out for the mums.

Oh, we're already starting? Okay. We gotta look out for the moms. We always gotta look out for the moms. Oh, we already started. Okay. We're already starting. Okay, you know what? Okay, you know what? Let's talk about this. Brown Girls Do It Too presents Big Boy Energy. Since the beginning of time,

women have been treated as the more mysterious sex. But can anyone really claim to understand the hearts, minds and other parts of men? This is Big Boy Energy, a podcast where I'm on a mission to delve deep into the recesses of what men want, what they really think and find the answers we all want to know. Big Boy Energy. I'm Poppy J and you might have heard me on the award-winning podcast Brown Girls Do It Too, which I present with my beloved other half, Rubina Pabani. We speak about everything from our sex lives to female rage and from Excel spreadsheets that our tax-dodging uncles would be proud of to the complicated relationships we have with our families. Today, I want to learn

all about mummy's boys. Joining me is someone who has a hugely successful podcast with his mum called Chai Talk, in which they rarely see eye to eye. Content creator, entertainer and podcaster. It's Waji West. Thank you. Welcome. I'm glad to talk about Mama's Boys. We've got a lot to get into.

We do. Let's get right into it. Before we get into this conversation, which I know is going to get heated, the ultimate boy mum, Rubina, has sent us her take on mummy's boys. All right, Miss G, I got another question for you. Why is being a mummy's boy seen as a negative quality, if in fact it is? As a mother of boys, I love a mummy's boy. Men who are good to their mums. What's wrong with that? What do you think? Yeah, what's wrong with that, Poppy? Please tell us. What is wrong with having a What do you think? Yeah, what's wrong with that, Poppy? Please tell us.

What is wrong with having a mum as well? Tell us, please tell us. I feel like I'm in the hot seat. You're in the hot seat right now. I'm so ready for it. Go, let's do it. Firstly, Rubina, that accent was all over the shop. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with loving your mother in a healthy way and supporting your mother.

In fact, it's a massive, it's not even an ick. If a guy is horrible and mean and cruel to his mother and talks down to his mother and it's very derogatory unless she was a psychopath and abused him I'm like yuck yeah because that is very telling of how you treat women in general and how you see women are you a mommy's boy oh you see well first of all how much time do we have to get we have probably 30 to 40 minutes I don't know 30 40 was enough time but I think first off that starts with what is a momless boy? Okay.

I don't think you can give an answer until you figure out the definition. By definition, a momless boy is someone that relies on their mom a bit too much in the sense of, see, I think there will be different definitions from what a woman thinks. I mean, so far I'm agreeing with you. Okay, great, great. I think it's someone that relies on their mom too much in the sense of they need to cook for them, they need to do the laundry for them, they need to clean for them. They basically can't function independently without their mom. I think the sense of they need to cook for them, they need to do the laundry for them, they need to clean for them. They basically can't function independently

without their mom. I think that's what a mommy's boy is. I think there's a fine distinction between loving your mom and then also relying on your mom. And I think loving your mom is completely different from what a mama's boy is.

Whereas relying on your mom, I think that is what defines. I totally agree. That's what defines a mama's boy. That's my definition. Oh, great. So now that we've established the definition,

are you a mama's boy? No, I don't think so. I do not think I'm a mama's boy. I my definition Oh great So now that we've established The definition Are you a mom's boy? No I don't think so I do not think I'm a mom's boy I don't think so Do you think your mom would say that? She wants me to be Me personally I'm very independent

I love to do my own things I don't even like it When they touch my stuff Or anything like that I can cook I can do everything independently But do I have a strong admiration For my mom

And do I always want to Make her happy and please her Which we can kind of get into How that kind of creates A lot of difficulties within balancing life and relationships and whatnot. But yeah, I don't think that's a mom's fault. I just think that just comes inherent in loving your mom. My experience of mommy's boys has universally been negative. So actually, maybe it's people like you that need to reclaim the mama's boy stereotype and, you know, paint it in a much more positive light. Because it's been hijacked by these men in my life, not necessarily guys I date, but like cousins, just brown men in my life, who rely on their mothers.

It's exactly like you said in your definition, who just have very, very unhealthy relationships with their mothers. And there are no, and I hate to use this word because I know it's very triggering for your mother, boundaries. I know Asian people in general don't understand boundaries, but mothers and sons, I have a really dark theory that if mothers could have sex with their sons, they would. Oh my God, yeah. I'm not joking.

No, if they could, they would, but they can't. And that's why they do everything else. That is why they do everything else because they know that is the one thing the wife will have over them the wife can do the cooking in the field the wife can do everything the mom can do and then some right so that's why the mom has a 20-year lead in time 25 30 year lead in time whenever the guy gets married anyway that's my dad i think it goes a bit further back i think it even goes to to the to the dad in the relationship or the husband in the relationship because I feel like a lot of times women and brown women are often neglected within our community

because I feel like back then the brown dad just didn't know how to, Asian dads did not know how to show emotions, right? So as soon as they have a son, they kind of start to place them into that husband role, into that husband figure wanting to have that love for their children

because they just didn't have it properly that they wanted to. So I think it kind of goes back into that. But what would you say in answer to her question? Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a mama's boy if it's defined the way that I had defined it. I think it's that love aspect. But I do think that there's a fine line and it's hard to navigate.

You know what? I can go back to you. I think it's hard for us men. It's definitely hard for us men to navigate that fine line of, okay, how do we show and love and respect our mom? While at the same time, we know we might have to get introduced and introduce another woman into our lives, our wife, for example, or a partner relationship. So I think it's hard for men. And how do we do that? And the stereotype that we have, it's like, we don't want to be a mama's boy, but at the same time, we have to love and respect our mom. And we have to, we

want to please our mom, but at the same time, then another woman comes into our life same time we have to love and respect our mom and we have to we want to please our mom but at the same time then another woman comes into our life now we have to cater towards her so i feel like it's not talked about enough on the challenges of us men and how we need to navigate that that's why you're in big boy energy because exactly about that because how do women women don't necessarily i mean yeah you guys have to navigate in your own way we have to navigate pleasing both women in our life right we have to navigate pleasing our mom and also pleasing the wife when you say you find it hard what do you find hard about that say for example let's get in a hypothetical right say if your mom likes something a certain way or if she doesn't like something but at the same time you love this other person in your life and just those two things did not agree how do you go about that which side do you choose I mean I

personally even my mama said this was just probably surprising and shocking it's like yeah you would have to prioritize your wife you do prioritize your wife because I didn't need that as your wife but it's easier said than done yeah I did see that clip with your mom saying you have to prioritize your wife but she did also say make the mom happy yeah exactly so she's very they contradicted themselves because they were once a wife too and they understand being a wife but at the same time once you become a mom it's like a whole different thing my head is bursting at the moment because there are so many things so many things we can get into okay so firstly we're both agreeing on the definition of a mama's boy correct right okay let's just establish a few things we're saying that there are two different kinds of mama's boy a son that loves his mom and supports

his mom but appreciates boundaries and appreciates and acknowledges a healthy relationship but are we also saying that definition of a mama's boy is not something that we are accustomed to? It's not something that we're used to seeing. Where are those men, frankly? Of course, yeah, of course. I get that. So really, when one says mum as boy or mummy's boys, we are thinking of definition one. Do you see a lot of those definition ones? All I see are those definition ones.

So you're telling me that all these boys, like they can't do anything on their own? Yes. Is that what you're trying to say? Yes. Really? I'm yet to meet a brown man. I don't think so.

You might be the first brown man. Really? No. Because I feel like... Where are they? I think women kind of just put them into that category just to begin with, from the jump. No. Because say, for example, if they were like,

oh, if they call their mom or whatever the case may be, or like their mom had probably cooked them dinner or food and they're eating, whatever, right? That's a massive trigger. Why the fuck is your mom cooking you food? Well, see, wait, what's wrong with that? No, okay. You just picked a really bad example, though, because that's going to trigger us. But do you get what I'm saying?

How can you just already label them just because your mom cooks? Okay, what if your mom cooked food for you? No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not labeling them. You are. No, I'm messing with you. You are.

But no, but you asked me a question And I said Big boy energy All the men All the men that I know Are mommy's boys Okay how Tell me how Let's get into We're talking about the definition

But tell me how Exactly the definition you said Because I feel like What if you're just labeling them From the jump What if women need to Actually start framing it differently Do you think that most women

Are labeling them from the jump Possibly I know there's a lot of men And boys out there Who are That act like that Okay What about those

that probably act like maybe they've done it in an instance here or there or one there and then automatically they put a tag on their label. I understand what you're saying. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah, of course I do. I would never, ever jump to a conclusion about any person. Okay. Number one. Number two, I would need to get

to know that person before I make said conclusion or said judgment. Say if I was on a date with you and... That would be a great date. Huh? That would be a great date,

just saying. Oh my God. We might be arguing. We might be arguing the whole time. I mean, it would be a very, very, very... It would be fiery. It would be passionate. It would be a great date.

So if you, on this date, said, excuse me, I need to go call my mum in the middle of the date, I'm like, I'm the flag.

Yeah, that is a flag. Okay, sure. You could be white, you could be black, you could be any. Of course, of course. You just have to be a brown. So I'll be like, okay, this is not great. But if, say, for instance, your mum called in the middle of the day and she'd come out of a hospital appointment or something

and you're just like, give me two mins, I just want to check. That necessarily, within the context of that, that's not going to make my brain go, I'm the flag. I'm like, he just wants to make sure his mum's okay. There's a reason behind it, right? I don't meet a brown guy and think, mummy's boy. I need to see evidence and receipts. Can you give us more evidence and examples of what that is?

Because I feel like we, as men, we should know. What is it that is making women claim us as mama's boy? I mean, us, I don't know if I'm considered one, but I'm just saying generally. What is it? Give us examples. It's literally your definition. Okay, okay. The definition that you said earlier. So you're seeing them what?

You're seeing their mom do their laundry? Their mom does everything for them. Like what? Cooking, cleaning. Cooking, cleaning. Short of wiping their ass, everything. Everything. How do you know that?

How do I know that? How do you know that? Do they tell you? Like, oh, mom, what do they say? I see it. I'm in they say? I see it. I'm in the house and I see it. Really? It's there.

I'm not making this shit up, bro. I get it. Yeah, I used to go to my auntie's house. My sassy, my chachi. Yes, yes. They're not my family. I have to go to the kitchen and serve myself. Okay.

Okay. My cousin brother. Cousin brother is so fucking Asian, aren't we? My cousin. Cousin brother. When I said that to my white friends and my black friends, they're like, what? My cousin brother, cousin brother is so fucking Asian, aren't we? My cousin. Cousin brother. When I said that to my white friends and my black friends, they're like, what?

They're like, what's a cousin brother? And they're like, you mean your cousin? And he's like, no, no, no, cousin brother. And it's like, anyway, my cousin, my male cousin, he sits at the dining room table and he gets served. And then he gets served seconds. And then the plate is on the fucking table and he doesn't have to take it to the kitchen

no that's messed up you gotta take the plate to the kitchen oh you stopped at plate I'm up for all these other things because look what if

my mom or my sister whatever they'll set the plate not that I can't say I can't do it on my own and I do do it on my own did you not do it for your sisters as well yeah I shoot it for my sister

but kind of it's not probably to the same level it's not so you've just but what no i get that but what i'm trying to say now is do you not think your sister seeing that there's going to be an element of not resentment yeah because it sounds like your mom does it a bit more than she does it i think so but i think it's a bit different in my specific because i've

like lived on my own and i've done all those things on my own so it's different for me it's just convenient if food is cooked and my mom put on the table that's great but let me tell you talked about those guys that you're referring to that are living with their parents 24 7 all the time let me defend them for a second what if they are capable of doing it on their own right but they're just it's just being done for them now tell me that is that like what what about that what about that example really really this is a really really good point yeah so i blame the men and i blame the mothers who enable that kind of behavior. So I absolutely do. You get what I'm saying?

So what if like, it's just convenient. Like, hey, look, they cook food. So they're putting it on the table. Cool, let me just eat it. It's a very unhealthy symbiotic relationship. Okay, they feed each other. Okay, but what's wrong with a mom feeding their son? Let's get to that point.

Why don't we get back to that point? What's wrong with that? That sentence in itself is problematic. Not feeding, I'm not saying like there's... No, no, no, no, no. I know you're literally not saying feeding. I know that. Plain devil's advocate, you know?

Like I want to... Again, this is... I don't feel like a disclaimer. Like this is not all saying that this is all like me and I relate to all this type of stuff. I'm just saying for those men out there and the stereotype that you're putting out there, what's wrong with that?

I'm not putting out a stereotype. Oh, the stereotype that you've seen. The stereotype that... This is a stereotype. This is my lived experience as me. Your lived experience. As me, as Poppy, right? So what is wrong with that i'm not putting out a stereotype oh the stereotype that you've seen the stereotype that this is a this is a stereotype this is my lived experience okay your lived experience as me as poppy right so what is wrong with that so what's wrong with that is the sentence itself okay because if you had said what's wrong with a mom feeding her son and daughter i would have no problem what's wrong with a mom feeding her son so what's wrong with a father taking and bringing lunch to her daughter doesn't happen often often, but great. I mean, no, no, no. I've seen examples where that happened.

Yeah, that's great. And what's different from a father driving and dropping her daughter off somewhere? You know what the fundamental... Dropping them off somewhere. Do you know what the fundamental difference is? What's the difference? Because one happens way more than the other.

Oh, okay. Yeah, you can say that. One happens way more. We don't live in an equal... So then isn't that also the responsibility of the mom? Are we just born and then we're like instantly like, hey, mom, do these things for us. No, no, no, of course, Wadji, I'm not saying that.

And I just said, I think moms enable. So then how are the men at fault? Let's talk about that. How are the men at fault? Because then they perpetuate. No man stands up to their mom and says, don't cook for me, cook for my sister. Or you know what?

Don't wash my clothes because it serves them. Why would they stop? I get what you're saying okay so I totally understand your point of a guy why

if I was a guy I'd have the same upbringing as you right my mum would do fucking everything for me right the difference is

this generation of men and the men before them and the men before them no one has said hey mum stop washing my clothes and followed it through wash Sajida's clothes wash my sister said hey mom stop washing my clothes and followed it through wash sajidah's clothes wash my sister's clothes don't wash my clothes of course okay mom when i

come back from work don't feed me i know where the microwave is i can feed i can feed mom when we've got relatives over i'll go to the kitchen and i'll help my sister no man has ever fucking said that which is why brown women are triggered and we have massive problems. I've said those things to my mom. But I want you to understand why brown women get so het up about this. And I agree with you. I'm not saying all brown guys. I would have to see proof, right?

Of course. I'm not going to be hanging out with a guy and then it'd be like, oh, you're a mummy's boy. I never do that. I feel like we keep throwing these disclaimers out. So we're not like saying, we're just talking generally for the audience. Same with me, same with you. It's not like I go, I see a brown guy in the street. Same with me, same with you. It's not like I go, I see a brown guy in the street,

I'm like, mommy's boy. I'm not thinking it. I'm joking. I'm joking. But of course I don't think that. And I think something else that we don't talk about is that mothers create

these mommy's boy monsters. Definitely. They do. Definitely. And then what happens is these mommy's boys, when they come of a certain age, maybe not when they're 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, but you know when they're like 16 17 18 yeah maybe probably certainly a bit older

they don't push back of course because why would they yeah and i hate using the p word because i hate this word it's like the patriarchy it serves men it is and this is a really searingly honest comment from me yeah i like to think of myself as a feminist, but if I was a guy, why would I stop these things? It serves me. Even the nicest guys, it serves them. Why would you stop?

So where do we go from here, right? Like this is why brown women, and in all honesty, to go much deeper, this is why I find it really difficult to date brown guys because the brown guys I date, first of all, I have a sex podcast, so that's not going to fucking go down well.

So let's put that. Even if I had a podcast about accounting yeah yeah it's still yeah like I'm too much for them and their mothers of course of course you know the the mother-in-law would say make thee and I'd be like well there's a fucking kitchen go make it yourself so that's just not gonna work for me exactly and that's not gonna work for a lot of women you know we have careers and it's like male identity, not just for brown guys in general, is changing because women are doing a lot more themselves. Men are, at the same time, right, men are expected to provide and care and provide for the family and do all those things, right?

So if we are expected to do all those things, right, and like you're saying, enabling mothers, right? I feel like mothers are enabling the men by doing all this stuff, but I just think it's like a men and women type situation where it's like women are not taught it's in a way we're instilled or taught to be like though especially our moms right our moms are taught to be instilled to be hey look you care for the husband and the and the children as you grow up you provide for them you care for them you show them love you cook for them you clean for them all these certain things so isn't that naturally what a woman is taught and now a woman is growing up into that and now they are

like in today's generation now women are also kind of taught that and persuaded to do those things whereas men are taught completely opposite are you saying that we're taught traditional gender roles traditional gender roles yeah supposed to go work exactly and provide yeah i'm not saying i'm not saying that that's how it should be right now no no no no no not not at all but what i'm saying is like that's kind of how we we started we grew up is it wrong okay one for example right now that's not how women are it's not no right so i feel like a lot of women still are girl like growing up and no no not in the sense of like they still doing their own things but i'm saying but still like they're seeing like you're saying you're seeing the men being serviced you're seeing

the men being serviced whereas the women are the ones go get your own food go make your own tea right that's still happening I agree with you to a point But like today's generation We're working We're doing Oh for sure Our mother's generation

Yes But even It's even harder for women now Because even while you guys are working You guys are still expected To do those things You have to be caregivers And caretakers

And mothers Yeah you're still expected To do those things So I think it's only gotten tougher Is it wrong For women to Want to provide And care

For the husband And for the kids And is it wrong for the men to be more of that provider mentality? Absolutely not. It's not wrong for that, right? Okay. It's not wrong. But it's choice. If they both choose to do that, then it's choice. But if she is having to do the mother load of cooking, caring, packed lunches, and she's working 40 hours a week as well as her husband. I don't know how they would do that.

That's not something I'm down with that. No, no, of course not. I don't know that either. But it's choice. I guess it goes back to expectations, right? You shouldn't expect those things, right? Do you think that within the brown community, we have an epidemic, and I use a very big word here,

like a systematic problem of brown men who are raised to be mommy's boys and when i use the word mommy's boys i mean the negative stereotype i think so i think that is a case and i myself don't want to be that way and i feel like i am not that way and i think that is a case a lot of probably brown men don't want to be that way but it's that's just how things are raised and that's just how it's raised the men out there it's like how do we go about that do we just no mom don't cook me food or don't cook food or don't do this or don't do that why would we do that if that's what the mom wants to do that's how she sees herself of being a good mother a good mom a loving mom who cares for their

loves and not just their like sons but also the daughters but i get it they're gonna have more of a connection and bond you've brought me very neatly onto my reply to that, which is think about your sisters. Of course. Put yourself in your sister's shoes, right? The love, the nurturing, the caregiving, and frankly, the things that your mums do for men, for boys. Let's be honest.

They're a PA, they're a maid, they're a cleaner. What about your sisters? Yeah. The females in your family. Yeah. Like, they might be calling out for help. They might need a bit of support. They might need a bit of chicken and rice on a plate.

Of course. They might need their laundry done. 1,000%. But, you know, we don't get that. Yeah. You don't. It's less. You don't get that.

100%. And I think that is... Do you have a sister? I do have a sister. I do have a sister. I have a little sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old is she? I think she's like 21, 22.

But I think the dynamics. How old are you? I'm 29. I think it's a bit different. The dynamics are a bit different in our household. I mean, she does do a lot of like that caregiving stuff. But at the same time, my dad provides a lot. Like he does a lot for my sister at the same time.

Like whether it be laundry, like that's the difference. I feel like it's a different dynamic. But if we're speaking generally, I think that is wrong. I think that is. I think women, if they do need help, if they're stressed with school or work or whatever, I think there are situations where the mom will do all those things for her. They shouldn't be expected to do that on their own. And I think that does happen in the household.

I just think because of the stereotype that men have, don't you naturally just feel like it's automatically ingrained and assumed that, oh, it's not beingrained and assume that, oh, it's not being done to me. You're telling me that your mom never cooked for you or for your friends or your mom never cleaned your stuff or done your laundry? I cannot tell you. I'm the elder.

I'm one of six. Okay. I'm the eldest. Okay. The way my brother was raised, my youngest brother. Yeah, different. Yeah. Night and day difference to the way we were raised.

Of course she had to feed us. We'd be starving and dead. That's what I'm saying. Of course she did. It's the difference between like a stroke on a head and a plate and feed to go help yourself. It's the little things. It's the little things, right? Of course my mum fed me.

Of course she raised me. Of course she, it's the way it's done. The affection that's shown. It's the affection. Okay. And it's over affection. Yeah. But it's something that resonates with so many brown women in our community.

Of course. It does. Because of course they did the same things they did with you. Yeah. But just differently. It's just the way it's done. How much. It's all the extra shit that we never got.

Right? It's all the bonus benefits. So you want that. I think that we're getting even deeper. So you're trying to tell me that women wanted that affection? Is that what it is? They want it to be done to the same level that the moms show the men? We just want to be treated as the same as our brothers.

That's it. Okay, so I would like to counter with that. I would like my dad to show me the same amount of emotions and love and affection the way he shows the daughters. Okay. But naturally, that's not going to happen because even with me, I feel like I would naturally show more affection to my daughter one day, inshallah, 1,000%. I would love a daughter, and I would show so I would naturally show more affection to my daughter one day inshallah 1000% I would love a daughter and I would show so much more affection

to her than to my son I totally agree so now you're telling me I want that too and you want it from the mom but I completely agree so what do we do I think father and son relationships not just in the South Asian community men don't tell their sons they love them Asians generally don't say I love you anyway right at all At all. Father-son relationships, and not just in the South Asian community, cuts across all races, is very typical of men not being able to open up, especially in men of a certain age with sort of Gen Z, millennials, etc. I wouldn't say they're both as bad as each other. They're not as bad. You're right. It's moms. Naturally, I think it's worse because moms show more affection than a dad would or a father would.

Moms will naturally almost always, because that is just the instinct in a mom right they always say i carried you for nine months or there's my mom this but my question is like you want it to be equal right yeah i do want to be cool exactly but but what if it's just naturally that's just that's just not how it is the mom's going to show more affection to the son and the dad is going to show more affection to the daughter and that's how do you go about changing about changing that? You don't always get family situations where the dad shows more affection to the daughter. You don't, but you also don't always get a situation, or you get it more often than not,

but you also don't get the same effect. You get it more often than not. Like you said, you agreed with me. There is an epidemic of mommy sports. What do you brown women want? Just to be treated fairly and equally. So let's get deep. Fairly and equally, that's it.

In order to understand a brown man An Asian man Right Big boy energy We have to understand What do you guys want Well you guys don't know What you guys want I know exactly what I want

Yes you guys want Equality from the mother This and that But okay by the same time What do you guys want from us Men are very capable Of being We adapt

We can adapt to what If you tell us What we would cater And we would try to do Those things for you That's what men do What I want from a brown man What I want from any man Is is I want to be valued.

I want to be loved. I want to be listened to. I want to be respected. Okay. And I want all those things. Okay. But I want it to be equal. It's just not going to be equal.

And again, same with fathers and daughters. It's not going to be equal. My dad does not love me the same way he does my daughter. Firstly, I want us to park fathers and daughters for one second. Okay, we'll put that to the side. This episode is about mommy's boy, but it's good that we're bringing it up. We've got to bring it all up. We absolutely can stop it, right? The reason why my mom and dad continue to have five girls,

and they probably would have had another girl, is because sons in our communities are more precious. They are valued and they are more precious. So immediately I am born into a sexist world because my brother, you are more precious and valued as a member of society than any of the women in this room. So I'm at the battle already losing, number one. OK, so if an entire society has this mindset, this philosophy of men are more valuable and it's not just in our communities, Arab culture, Eastern Asian culture. It's in the fabric of society. Men are more valuable. And it's not just in our communities, Arab culture, Eastern Asian culture. It's in the fabric of society. Men are more valuable, right? So you're telling me, my mom and dad have raised me. Say my mom and dad just had five girls, yeah? They raised us, cooked us, fed us, paid for our university, all for us to then get married and then fuck off to another guy's house. And then all of my earnings, all of my love, all of my time goes to that other family. So number one, we value men because they bring

home a wife, i.e. a, you know, for want of a better word, a maid, right? She will take, my mom was a maid. She took care of my dad, her four children and all of his fucking siblings. That was the role of women back in those days. But right now, we don't live our mom's lives anymore. We don't. Yeah, you don't. Okay. Things are changing. Your 21 year old sister is not going to have the same life that your mom had.

Definitely. Right. So in those days, my mom had to shut the fuck up and not say anything. That's not going to fly anymore. Us brown women are not all women, but we're speaking out. We're like, we're not going to fucking accept this. It's so part of the fabric of our society. And I'm not saying it's going to change overnight,

but I'm saying you're going to get pushed back. And it's now up to this new generation of men to stand up to their mothers and say, I love you, but you need to think about my sister. Okay. And if you're going to treat me this way, you need to treat my sister this way. Then it's fine. Then it's calm. It's cool. You're right right it's not changing because men are not standing up and what is going to happen and i guarantee you this whilst that doesn't happen with the men women are going

to get more and more fucked off yeah right and there's going to be a chasm you're growing up with two genders not really understanding each other and then becoming more and more disparate. And then you just end up going with white guys. So you are losing good brown women to white men and black men is all I'm saying. Listen, so there's a lot that was said, right? And I think that inherently it is unfair for women. I'm not denying that. Neither should men deny that. Automatically, men are seen as more valuable, right? I think what's wrong is when men do not admit that. That is inherently wrong. Women, naturally, within our cultures, women are always seen as less, they're seen inferior. And that's just the reality of it. And I think it would be wrong for men to deny that and not accept that we do have privileges. So let's get that out of the

way. Now going on to your point about wanting it to be equal. My thing that I'm having with that is that when you're saying stand up, how do you change that natural motherly instinct? So then how is it up to the men? That's what I'm trying to understand. I get what you're saying about the whole dichotomy and how they'll be going further and further apart because that equal nature is not

there and i guess a man has to stand up to his mom and tell her boundaries which i think is i think boundaries in a different even in different contexts boundaries are always needed but my thing is and shouldn't it be on the moms and the women and for them to stop that nature instead of putting it on the men the men can stand up But a mother's instinct naturally will always be to show more affection to the son. And let's just admit that. Why do you think she does that? I can't say because I'm not a mom. I'm not a, I don't know.

I think it's because that's how they were taught. So then shouldn't it be women of today's generation to change that, right? And we should change that. I get it. Everybody has a part and I'm not saying we don't, but just putting it on the men,

I can't disagree with. I didn't say that. Really good question. I think it's something that women have been taught. I think women, it's in their DNA to show affection to their children, girl or boy. And I think you raise a really good point. I do not think it is just the son's responsibility or the men's responsibility to say to their mom, stop. But I do think it is the men that need to start that conversation first for sure and they need to repeat and repeat and repeat and do it in a way

that's kind to their mothers and obviously not shouting at them but like if mom is giving them something on a plate they give that plate to their sister it's little acts yeah it's little acts of kindness so the mom can see i'm doing this stuff all these little things I'm doing for my son he's doing it for my daughter he's telling me something it's not enough to be like mum stop like this is a this is a behavioral change yeah that doesn't just it's not on just on your shoulders brother it's on everyone's shoulders there's there was a really I thought beautiful clip that I saw on your Instagram page

and it made me really sad because it made me think of my mum and it was like what do you do when your son gets old I have nothing left to do I have no hobbies

and it broke my heart they live for their kids and they aren't just living for their sons they're also living for their daughters they care for their daughters as well

and it's like it takes so many men and the strength of so many men to change that. And that's why it takes a big man, hence big boy energy. It takes a big man to say, and you're not just saying it with words, you're showing her. Like, I love that you're doing this, but like, let me do it for you

or let me do it for my sister. But it's what they were taught and it's what they know. But I think like any behavior, things can change. It just takes a very massive shift in the side. Do you understand what I'm saying? I 100% agree with so much you said and everything that you said. And I'm like, and I agree with that. And I think it's so beautiful that men should care more for women and do it for their sisters.

They're shooting themselves in the foot. Get rid that get rid of that expectation of like your sister is supposed to be inferior you know like they're supposed to do things for you i do all the times i would do my stuff for my sister and vice versa she does stuff for me but i'm saying like men need to do that more and i cannot agree with that even more i have been challenging oh i know and i have and i love that about you so i'm standing up and i'm doing that i'm challenging i'm like stop like i need boundaries we do that like i've been standing up and I'm doing it. I'm challenging. I'm like, stop. I need boundaries. We do that. I've been standing up.

It's difficult, right? So I'm just telling you from a lived experience. A lot of men probably not even doing this step. When I do try to do this step and I try to create boundaries, I tell my mom, stop. Give me space. I need to do this. I need to do that.

I need to be on my own. Let me live. Stop getting on me. This and that, right? Then the relationship with your mom starts to, I wouldn't say deteriorate, but it starts to become a bit like There's friction

There's friction Does that mean We shouldn't do it? No it's not We shouldn't do it But now it's like I don't know It's just hard to navigate

In the sense of like You see Then you upset your mom Then you upset her Then you It comes down to the mom Are you fucking serious? No it comes down to the

Yeah dude Oh my god No listen Are you actually serious listen listen it comes down because i'm i'm i'm telling you from my personal space i'm telling her to leave me like stop leave me alone i don't i don't need to you don't need to be telling me where i'm going what i'm doing doing this doing that i don't need you to be calling me i don't need you to be doing this i don't need you to be calling me. I don't need you to be doing this. I don't need you to be doing that. Stop doing those things, right?

I understand your point. Your point is this. Men are not really stepping up or challenging their mothers. But the ones that do, i.e. you, when they do, they are met with resistance. They are met with pushback. They are met with shouting and the relationship deteriorates, etc., etc. I agree with you, right? And put yourself in your mother's shoes.

You have asked a woman who only knows one thing, who has only behaved in one way for 50 something years of her life. All she knows is one thing. Of course. You suddenly tell her to do something that pretty much goes against

the fundamental DNA of who she is as a human, as a mother. Exactly. Okay? You've asked to do something. And I'm doing that because why? Women of today's generation, the stereotype of mama's boys.

Let me finish. I actually have so much respect for you. Yeah, thank you. I really do. Yeah, thank you. I think you're the first public brown boy I've seen to challenge your mom and have these conversations with your mom.

And I'm genuinely envious of you because you are saying things to your mom I wish I could say to my mom. But I understand brown boys are raised to be like, you've got to bring home the bacon, the proverbial bacon. You've got to take care of the family. And I understand the pressures that men face, of course. But I'm also trying to help you understand that, yes, you need to challenge your mum, but it's the way you do it and you need to be patient. It's a very, very big thing that women are asking of men. And then it's, very big thing that women are asking of men.

Yes. And then it's a very big thing that men are asking of their mothers. Exactly. I think we can find a common ground here. Like you said, it takes patience, right? Putting these labels on men, mama's boys, this and that. I think it takes patience to allow them. I'm not saying to give them so much time, but I'm saying it's like have a conversation and let them step up to their mom, whatever case may be but then you're going to realize it's not just about stepping up because then that comes with

them having to deal with their mom their relationship with their mom so there's going to be so much back and forth not just that's what I'm trying to tell you I'm telling you

what's in the head of my mind of course I'm telling you what the man is presented with and the child is presented with we're on one side we're trying to please what this new partner coming into our lives

which we want to prioritize we want to love and show so much respect and prioritize by the same time now while doing that we have to step up to our moms i'm glad you said that if he'd started yeah at 15 or 19 and by the time he got married he's had 10 years yeah to train mom yeah so when wifey comes along yeah he's done the majority of the work right he's laid the groundwork I'm not saying it's perfect and mum is still

going to get jealous and mum's going to be like who this bitch on the scene but do you see why a man see look let me tell you a man's not going to do that until another woman comes into his life

you're absolutely right yeah these conversations between mothers and sons often happen when there's a wife on the scene because now suddenly there was one woman

in his life and now there's two men have to stop caring as much of disappointing their mum that's what it is but let me tell you something your mom yeah 15 years ago to now to this moment yeah do you think she's shown some change of course i think i think with the conversation we had yes and that and that's all i needed but they but it's never gonna change no no i am not Okay. And I do not think for a second these moms are going to change. They're not exactly good. They're not.

Yeah, okay. But can we get them a little bit better? Can we get them a little bit better? My mom, like I'm going to be 40 next year, right? Yeah. So my mom, 20 years ago to this moment has changed. Yeah, of course. Has she changed at the same rate as a fossil fuel, fossilized dinosaur?

Yeah, exactly. But I will take that over no change at all of course right and that's what i wanted to say like yes they will go back but i think you're right and i think as long as i'm kind to her yeah i am still going to do what i need to do because i can't live for her yeah and i think ultimately we have to live for ourselves i think that's what's difficult because we want to make our parents happy we want to make our parents happy. We want to make our mom happy. We try so much to make them happy, but it's difficult to live for yourself. So that's why we need to work on ourselves

and help our internal peace and find internal happiness and stop caring so much about what that person's going to think, what that person's going to feel, even though it is our mom. But that's why we need to work on ourselves. And that's where I think we can come to an agreement. I think that you and I have been low-key agreeing with each other yeah but we were just arguing for like you know i'm i'm gonna stand up for my men out there you're gonna stand up for the woman i'm gonna i'm gonna stand up for men too

i have a brother you know same here i love i same here and i agree with so many points that you said about women i think there were so many good men uh but like but i think fundamentally you said this yourself we have a problem definitely and men why would they admit they have a problem? Yeah. Hopefully with this episode, we were able to kind of understand what men kind of have to deal with and what women have to deal with. This is a gargantuan task you have ahead of you. Yeah, I think it's going to end with us.

It's going to start with us. The change is going to start with us. This whole patriarchy and all this is going to end with us. And I would say that the onus and the responsibility is on all of us. We are all accountable. And I think it's only fitting for a brown boy to end on a note of just um showing love to the moms out there yes and that's kind of how this episode started as a brown daughter i want to show love to my mom i love my mom so like moms are amazing we value you we appreciate you we love you yes you need some

boundaries and yeah they do and and a shout out to the women that have to do with this epidemic of brown men yes mommy's boys and shout out to the women shout out to the women shout out to you brown women too for uh holding it down for being patient for us and uh and dealing with the mummy's boys but hopefully we can change one podcast at a time yes high five on that high five high five i've had so much fun talking to you well thank you for coming on big boy energy you've had you've got a lot Boy Energy you've got a lot of energy you've got a lot of Big Boy Energy let me tell you

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