Brown Girls Do It Too - Poppy Revisits... Jameela Jamil

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Poppy and Rubina are joined by Brown Girl royalty, Jameela Jamil, to discuss many things: like, how to have good sex, how your body image impacts your libido and the concept of being a “Girl’s Girl”.What makes someone a “Girl’s Girl”? Who decides who makes the cut? And does Jameela consider herself one?Jameela first caught Poppy and Rubina's attention while presenting T4, she was the cool and aloof girl everyone wanted to be - and now she's the cool and not-so-aloof Hollywood star everyone wants to be. Why was she, in her own words, a misogynistic slut-shamer? And how did she grow from her mistakes?Have a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail] you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, hola, salaam, welcome. You are listening to the Gravelly Tones of Poppy J and I'm here to remind you that Rubina and I will be back in your ears very soon with a fresh new season of Brown Girls Do It Too. We've lined up sick guests, the yapping will resume, and of course, the Shagney aunties are here

to advise you on all your conundrums. If you'd like to share with us your intimate stories, your innermost thoughts, or your everyday dilemmas, then email browngirlsdoittoo at bbc.co.uk. Or, if you're over 16,

you can leave us a WhatsApp message on 079-688100822. I'm sharing some of my favourite episodes with you and that includes the iconic Jameela Jamil. So on that episode, me and Rubino were trying not to be sycophantic and uncool, but it was just surreal having someone who you look up to, who you grew up with. By the way, I'm actually older than Jameela Jamil. I'm older than her by a few years. What I've realized from doing that episode is that Jameela Jamil is the ultimate girl's girl. And if you follow her on Instagram and you look at the way, like just her metamorphosis,

the way she's evolved from that amazing brown girl that we grew up with on telly to who she is now and what she does for women is nothing short of incredible and actually fights the fight for girls so I'm here for her and I will back her to the hilt I think what I've realized the fundamental difference between girl's girl and a boy's boy and girl code and guy code so when we did big boy energy last year boy code or guy code is showing up for your boy mates and showing it through action. So turning up and doing something for them, helping them in some way. Whereas with women, yes, we will help our girls through action, but it's much more emotional support.

It's much more empathetic and sympathetic. Whereas guys, it's much more functional. Although that is changing to pick up the phone and say, I need help with this thing that I'm going through emotionally. Can you come and talk to me? And I think that's the fundamental difference. We loved having Jamila on. She was absolutely brilliant. And here is the episode. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. If I was a girl's girl, I'd warn you and tell you that this podcast will feature swearing.

And if I was a girl's girl, I would tell you this podcast will also feature adult content. It's just like girl code. Maybe she's born of that. You're welcome this is a podcast about sex at least it started off like that now we talk about everything everything is sex and sex is everything and that includes our mistakes our heartbreaks and our hot hot hot takes hot hot hot hot brown girls do it too. I'm Poppy and I'm a girl's girl. But I'm also...

Nope, nope, still a girl's girl. I'm Robina and I'm a girl's girl. But I'm also a boy's girl and a non-binary's girl and any other gender's girl. This episode is about the concept of being a girl's girl. The girl code and sisterhood. But when does it become toxic? Why is it that one of the most popular insults online at the moment is,

she's just not a girl's girl? Who decides who makes the cut? I feel like this is a real thing that I'm seeing all the time now as well. I remember there was a recent documentary about the Kardashians and it talked about them in the light of being like one of the most powerful female dynasties, the wealthiest female dynasty that the world has seen in a long time and reframing them. And I was actually there.

They're doing a lot for like the economy for them, for women, as well as some negative stuff. But people decide whether those are the Kardashians, girls, girls. Really good question. I think they are a dynasty. I think they're a money-making machine. But I think they're also trapped in the patriarchy. They perpetuate lip fillers and impossible body

standards. And, you know, again, it's not their fault, I guess, but girls, legions of young girls look up to them. They are role models, whether they like it or not. And if I'm going to be completely honest, I love their business acumen. But if I had a 10 year old that looked up to them, I would be quite disappointed. I just can't take you seriously. And maybe that's also my problem,

that you have to be worthy. You have to be preaching something. You have to be an activist for me to respect you. But that is me. And fucking sue me. I'm sorry. But there are some girls out there who love the kardashians for being that as well so it's like i guess when you use the phrase girls girl it's like who's the first girl in that sentence like because me as a girl that those girls aren't my girls they're not my girls look i i had a real problem with the kardashians

by the way a real issue with them all of of them. And then as I got older, I realized they're doing something I probably would have done with that much money. I'd like to think not, but they also just want to look good and have people like them and have people look up to them and have people admire them and they want to be pretty and they want to get the nice guy. They want what most people want. So I can't blame them for that. They have the opportunity and the money. What are they going to do? Say no to it. But like, you have to believe in something and help people that are don't have your platform that don't have the same opportunities you do. I'm sorry, you do. If me and you fancied somebody, you'd I'd be like, take it, go. Would you? Absolutely.

Without fail. I'd take it. I would. I would. I would take it. Would you take it? I would. I would. I certainly would. No, I, fortunately, this hasn't happened to me. I don't know if this has happened to you. A very different type of, like, me and my friend might fancy the same guy, but the same guy either fancies me or fancies like a blonde white person.

Oh, yeah. I had it with my friend when we were travelling. We both fancied this like German tourist and we were in like a different country. And I was like, look, I fancy him. we were in like a different country and I was like look I fancy him she was like I fancy him I was like

well let's not go for it let's not ruin our friendship hilariously we already wasted with him went out and he was like I have a girlfriend I was like

he fancied you he didn't like either of us but like then I've got another friend one of my best friends she's Asian we're both two very different

kinds of guys fortunately we have very different tastes so we're never in like we're never I never want to compete with my friends ever it's not in my bone to I I have a competitive streak in me absolutely but when it comes to friendships I don't want to compete I think it's really toxic really unhealthy the moment I get a whiff of a friend being jealous of me I'm like I need to I need to end this stop this now moment I get a whiff of a friend being jealous of me, I'm like, I need to, I need to end this, stop this now. And I think a lot of

not being a girl's girl or being a pick-me girl, so a girl who basically wants the attention of men and will put the needs of men before women, I think comes from rivalry and jealousy,

which I think is just, they're dead traits to me. They are. They lead you down a path. To be honest, when I first met you, I thought you were a bit of a pick-me girl, but within getting to know they are they lead you down a path to be honest when I first met you I thought you were a bit of a pick me girl but within getting to know you for like

you know maybe a month wow I then realised you're just not that girl you're not that girl at all and I get mistaken for a pick me girl it's funny you say that I have been

this is not the first time because you flirt with like any human who's in your metre radius and do you know what's so interesting I can't flirt to save my life it's a running theme running theme of this programme know what's so interesting? I can't flirt to save my life. It's a running theme, running theme of this programme. I think I'm not flirting.

I'm just being, I'm just being friendly. Your friendly is, yeah, finger up the bum. Cool. Our guest today is someone we've wanted to speak since the dawn of time, series one. She's a cat girl. A dog girl. A cool girl.

A Hollywood girl. A London girl. And most importantly, a brown girl. It's Jamila Jamil. So, Jamila, we wanted to talk to you about the concept of a girl's girl and whether it's a well-meaning term that's now being used against women. So, do you consider yourself to be a girl's girl? Girl.

I love the way you say it. Girl. Girl. I don't know what that means exactly. Well, according to Urban Dictionary, no, I'm joking. Okay. Apparently I go to Urban Dictionary.

It's a running theme in our podcast where Poppy's like, I've done the research. I'm sorry that the sun is just like, that I'm basking in the sun right now. You look amazing. We're in like the sun is just like, that I'm basking in the sun right now. I know, you look amazing. We're in like the basement at this like sex dungeon. I know, I'm actually all this like halo goddess queen. Oh, there's snow.

There's snowing in London today. There's snow here, yeah. Oh no. You look great. Okay, yeah, so tell me. So according to the Tinterweb, a girl's girl is someone, is a woman,

who, a girl, who will back other women to the hilt no matter what that's a girl's girl and like a pick me girl is a girl who uh does things for the attention of men and has a bit more of a competitive uh spirit with girls i mean the first thing is a girl's girl most likely isn't that kind of men are all men are trash type scenario because women, we know what we're doing. No, I'm neither of those then. I used to be a pick me girl. I used to, all my friends are boys. I got bullied really badly at school by girls. So I was really afraid of women until my 20s.

And so I was very, very close to a lot of boys. And I was a massive misogynist like 15 years ago. If anyone followed me on Twitter, they'll remember. I was a massive slut shamer. I was a real cunt. But that's because I was traumatized. And I woke up to how daft I was. And I was directing all my rage with the world at the wrong target.

Because I didn't know the term patriarchy. I was not a my rage with the world at the wrong target because I didn't know the term patriarchy I was not a very advanced person and then when I started to understand the system and unpack the system I started to understand how the world works and start to direct my rage appropriately towards misogyny and unpack and you know dismantle my own so I would say I went from being a pick me girl to a feminist for sure but I don't think um I don't think men are trash yeah I mean I agree I think that's like really interesting you have this like full-on like solidarity with other women that you only feel a bit like later in life do you feel like you've kind of gone on a bit of a journey with your relationships with other women and feeling like you're I mean it's really hard because like obviously we're women

and we're all singing from the same hymn book to some degree on certain things but we're also not a monolith yeah and I never saw women as my competition it was never that I was never that kind of pick me girl I never thought I just I just didn't understand women and just thought like you know men are just so much more logical men just aren't so hormonal and emotional. And like, fuck, did I not understand how hormonal and emotional they were? I also thought that, you know, similar to a lot of like, I guess, incels, I thought crying meant you were emotional.

I didn't understand anger as an emotion. But yeah, it's been a bit, it's been quite a journey and it has led to me really passionately atoning for how much I misunderstood women and how much I misunderstood the target. And I'm very much so. I would consider myself a woman's woman in that I will stand like you see me publicly. I ride at dawn for women only because I feel like men have got each other's backs in a way that we are still only just learning how to do but I would say now in my late 30s I'm definitely a girl's girl like I will I will do anything for women to the hilt like almost problematically girl's girl like well even like you veer into Miss Andrew no I just would do anything for women even if they've even if like, look, if they were in the wrong, obviously I'd call them out or I'd speak to overcome disgrace and and push through because people do move on and forget like there are some people who hate me who message me being like

i know i hate you but i can't remember why can you tell me what you did this is unhinged but it also goes to show that like life just moves we move we grow and that's okay and and it's vital for the next generation to see that the world does not end when a woman falls out of favor. Yeah. Because otherwise we are held to these insane and distracting standards in which we can't grow.

The only way you can grow, the only way you can find out about yourself is via mistakes and via mess and chaos. And so now I run publicly towards the mess to mixed results for my publicist nervous system but it's meant that at least the people who you know who follow me know who I am and they and I you know I don't you know I used to feel really self-conscious when I was out in public because I knew that I was putting on a persona publicly when I was younger and so I was like god I hope

they don't meet the real me or hear the real me having a conversation. I don't feel that anyway anymore because I feel like I am a hundred percent myself publicly. And that's nice is that like, they're going to know that I look like shit sometimes, or that I'm in a bad mood sometimes, or that I'm a bit socially strange. I don't feel this need to perform anymore. and I hope I can be a part of encouraging women you know out of that yeah I think that's what I like about your brand the most I mean if I can call it a brand I hope that's not like a demeaning way to talk about it but it's because it's it's an unfinished work I think that is how I would describe myself in general it's just an unfinished work like a beautiful painting yeah I mean like a bit of a shit painting you know like

sometimes like a shit good painting like that renovation they did of jesus but didn't do oh my god i love that painting so much so many of my friends have it as their whatsapp profile pictures because it's just a real great renovation it's like a shit jesus renovation um you're a shit Jesus renovation. You're a shit Jesus to brown women. Honestly, that is my dream. My dream was never to be, I never wanted to be aspirational. I just always wanted to be like inspiring for other people to rebel.

I loved your post actually about Taylor Swift. You were so right. You put up a, and I was like, this is so Y2K media machine. Yeah. Overexpose a woman. Everyone loves her.

And then you tear her down because she's just and it's just this is it's almost like Taylor Swift has like totally empowered and written her own

narrative on that yeah totally like I read her like she made the cover of like Time and I read her like interview and it was amazing

it was absolutely amazing I've never felt more empowered by her words but like Taylor Swift is for Gen Zers what you were to me growing up. Because when I watched you growing up on T4, I was like, I need a fringe.

And this is my look. And this is my girl. This is who I want to be. And you were like, you were like, I mean, you were this very like cool, chill, kind of like very cool girl to me. And a brown girl on TV. We never did anything.

Amazing. But I've like loved your evolution of who I think you you are now because if you were a role model to me then you're still a role model to me now because i'm like do you see that do you see that shift in your public persona the way that we do i think i just finally became myself you know like i i i was so young and i was so unprepared i was an English teacher who overnight became a T4 presenter. I had no training, no preparation, no agent. I didn't know what an agent even did. So I, you know, like for TV and stuff, you know, I was so unprepared. And so I guess the pressure was to be like the others and to try to dress in a cool way and speak in a cool way. Like my voice was different

back then. I watched videos. Was your voice different? What did you sound like? I sounded a bit like Alan Partridge. Did you? Yes, you did. Oh my God, you so did. It was so cringe.

And, you know, so I think that it took me a really long time, probably until I was about 30 to figure out who I actually was. And so now I am myself. And I love how many brown girls in England, like show me so much love for back then. And I think more that was just about the representation and the fact that I was, you know, a bit mad and on TV and out there and proud. But I think who I was, I have no idea. But you're like very quirky and funny, but you're also really fit. Like you are quite fit.

And that's really complicated because sometimes as a girl's girl, when you see also really fit like you are quite fit let's all be honest you're very sweet and that's really complicated because sometimes as a girl's girl when you see a really fit girl immediately you're like well I can't possibly like her she can't possibly be nice because she's too good looking

she's not going to be interesting JLo did this really brilliant speech she said something the other day when she accepted I don't know some award and she was like if you're beautiful you can't be clever

and if you're this you can't be this and if you're this you can't be this and I admit I did that like you saw a fit girl and you're like well you're obviously she a fit girl you're like well she's probably not fun on a night out i'd say something that's obviously our own misogyny yeah but you can be we can be all those

things to try hard because as an ugly teenager i spent a lot of time just trying really really hard well it was really it was a bit of a struggle for me at t4 because they wouldn't let me do any comedy stuff you know i had to fight to do my my own comedy because they wanted me just to be the like fashion girl because I had long legs. And so they, you know, they would tell me explicitly, like, you're not funny. So like you, you should do these bits. I would ask if I could participate in the comedy bits.

And we had a team of like all men. And I asked for a woman on the writing team and they got a woman whose name I still don't know because she was completely mute and never spoke in the writer's room, never stood up for herself. And so I wasn't given that. And the one time they finally let me do it, they gave me the unfunniest sketch of all time, something that no one, to kind of prove to me that I couldn't do it. And so that was, it was, I loved T4 and it gave me loads of opportunities, but it was also very demoralizing. And it was, you know, it was just very hard for me because I had been pigeonholed and so I had to push through and that's why it's so ridiculous to me that I've now ended up in

comedy because in my formative years in this industry I was just like god you better look good forever because that's the only value that anyone sees in you and I think that massively contributed to my eating disorder. You know, back then it was like, well, you've got to be thin. You've got to look good because no one thinks you have a brain. And so it's been, it's been a, that's why I went to radio after T4 was like, I don't want anyone to see me anymore.

Yeah. I just want to prove that I can do this job when you can't see my tits and my legs. Did you feel a certain amount of shame attached to like the sexiness of your body? Because I feel like, you know, the way you carry. I didn't want to be sexy anyway. It was 2010. I just wanted to be like heroin chic, emaciated. Oh, we talk about that all the time on this podcast.

It was such a sad time. And I like, I really regret like the way I would stand to try and make myself look as thin as possible. Like I just I I helped perpetuate an image no but Jamila I mean look you say that like you're when we grew up watching you we just I certainly just knew as a t4 presenter you're metamorphosis if I'm allowed to say like when you became you're a very high public figure you talk about such fucking important shit that resonates with all of us i felt like when did that start actually was that like five six how many years ago was that like i don't have

26 so it was 2012 when i um i got really sick and i was put on steroids for like six months and i gained like i don't know like five stone yeah and the paper and i was on the radio so i just didn't see why that was a fucking big deal yeah uh not that it should be a big deal ever but especially if no one can fucking see me like why is it yeah yeah and uh and the papers started to have like the paparazzi started to hound me all day every day outside my house to document my weight gain and put it on the front cover of magazines and I'd never really been on the front cover of the tabloids and now I was always on the front cover and it was always pictures of my ass it would be 7am I wouldn't know there's a paparazzi like waiting in a car first thing in the morning and I'd be bending

over to pick up my keys or something and they would post pictures of my bare fucking ass next to photos of me that they'd made look even thinner than I was and they were crafting this narrative like they were only taking pictures of me when I was alone or just sort of you know I have a naturally depressed face even though I'm not a depressed person I always look like I'm about to throw myself in front of a train like that is my face and so it's just like it's not how I feel inside it's just unfortunate you know I don't have any muscles in my face I guess but I um but I was having the best year of my life like my career was going so well I was winning awards I was making history I was having good sex like I was having the best year of my life. Like my career was going so well. I was winning awards. I was making history. I was having good sex.

Like I was in love, like all the things that you tell women that you won't have if you dare to get bigger. I had, so I was having a great year, but the narrative publicly, because of these photos they would get, I'd be out walking with a group of friends. They would isolate me in the photo away from friends

and make it look like I'm always lonely and I'm always down and I'm always sad and my life was falling apart and I was fucking furious because I was like no no my whole life I was fear-mongered about gaining weight and told that I would lose everything and no one would ever love me and I would never you know like you you think the world's going to stop turning when you have anorexia if you gain weight and the opposite had been proven to be true. And so I decided to fight back very publicly. And I released plus size clothing lines and I went and spoke at parliament. And that was when I really found my voice as in the kind of element of fuck you to the diet

industry. I was 26 and I was getting all the offers to lose weight with a big weight loss company. And I said, no. And so I stayed big as long as I physically could. But once I came off the meds, it just sort of the weight started to come off. But I never went to the gym. You still retain the glow of somebody who has good sex. Let me tell you that. You said good sex. What to you is good sex?

Sex is good when it's connected. And, you know, You come, I think Ideally I always have to come If I can come, that's the dream I had sober sex yesterday Jamila My second sober date How was it?

Let me tell you Alcohol just gets you to the banging A lot quicker We're both doing dry January Also Jamila As a girls girl just gets you to the banging a lot quicker. It's a shade of neutral hours. We're both doing dry January. Also, Jamila, as a girl's girl, I'd tell you right now,

and you might not like it, and I want your opinion on this, your eyeliner's on your eyelid. Oh, shit. Yeah, yeah. Some girls don't like that, but obviously they can cut that out. But I'm like,

I'd rather you tell me I've got bad breath, privately, or a bat in the cave, bogey. Oh's fine it's fine i've i've i've got two dogs so getting ready this morning was a fucking disaster so i'm it's i haven't bathed i did i did the old stand up by the sink horse horse wash what's it's like in the states americans are more prudish, aren't they? Would you say? They are way more prudish.

They're not more prudish. Are you mad? What, Americans? Yeah. Nah. Because you guys, they're way more religious there. It's still a bit more secular here.

But they don't like the swearing. But like the more, I find the more reserved people are, the hornier they are. Do you know what I mean? It's all underneath. It's all secret. It's all underneath.

Because also this is the, like, I'm also in like LA, which is the hub of pornography. And so that means that, you know, I think a lot of the men and the women are very highly influenced by porn. And so they are fucking like porn here.

It's very, it's like, I'd say it's probably more performative, but I would say it's probably more performative. But I would say it's probably more performative than England. Yeah, yeah. In LA. But it's, but I would say that this is, this place is not reserved. I can't speak to the middle of the country, but the coasts are horny as hell.

Right. Well, New York, New York is like London. So I've only been to New York really. And Miami. Right, right, yeah. I wonder how like, like how much you know about the porn industry. That would be really interesting because it feels like in LA, maybe they're like filming them next to studios.

You're making movies. Like maybe you could talk on set. No, not in studios. They're filming them in houses. My last house turned out to be like a porno house. Oh, wow. It was insane. How did you find that out?

Oh, God. I was like, oh, my God. I feel like there are dick ghosts everywhere. I had to leave. No, it was how did you find that out oh god i was like oh my god i feel like there are dick ghosts everywhere like i had to leave um no it was uh you can hear that we found out from a neighbor i think that like all those houses because i was living in like laurel canyon which is just like a massive shagging mountain um that that that's where a lot of the like iconic old pornos were shot was like on my street because it has an amazing it had an amazing view. And so I'm no longer there.

You always need a good view in porn. Would you ever be in a porno? No, no, I'm so shy. Also, like with this depressed face, can you imagine how sad that porno would be? Hey, there is a tab for that. There is a market for that. There is a market for that. No, I'm too.

That's why I was always like, I'm going to have to make it in this business because I'm never going to make it in Bourne. And I would be such a, I'm so clumsy, I could never be a stripper. Would you be in a porno, Rubina? I might. Yeah, I mean, I've watched, I've consumed quite a lot of pornography growing up.

You'd be in a porno? I mean, I feel like I have a vision. I have a director's vision for what that could be for myself. No, I don't mean direct a porno. Amazing. Would you be in one? I could direct myself in a porno. Okay, I could definitely see it. Bradley Cooper did it in my stroke i could do it too very strong

starred in produced by directed i could be in a porno mom would fucking kill me i'm too awkward like i've also got no muscles in my upper body so it's like i can't do reverse cowgirl like i can't it's very it would be very like that's that in positions you just can't do that lazy genre yeah yeah anything that's difficult. Bit like you, though. No, no, no, no. I'm fucking 24-year-old guys. I'm doing a public service, so now I'm not lazy in bed.

I used to be really lazy in bed. I just, like, lie there and take it. And now I'm, like, deep, I can deep throat now, you know? Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah, it's a real skill. I used to think, my mates are like, but are you deep throating tiny cocks?

How do you train for that like with a Solero like how do you just got your calipo trained more of a mini milk I think it's when you're

the back of your throat opens up and then the penis goes beyond that point does it touch the tonsils I don't worry about touching the tonsils I mean it's gone beyond

the fucking tonsils baby wow yeah I'm so impressed with myself oh my god and when I did it with the medium side I was like

oh my god are you South Asian like are South Asian like generational Wow. Yeah, I'm so impressed with myself. Oh my God. And when I did it with the medium side, I was like, oh my God, you're so good. Our South Asian generational relatives are all turning in their graves. Oh, they were turning in their grave in series one. That's why we're fucking, what's that word? Excommunicated.

Excommunicated. No one likes us here, Jamila. Oh my God. I had a psychic on my podcast. He's like a medium, a really famous medium. And every time he interviews people, like some relative of theirs comes through and I'm the only person

that no one has ever come through for. So I was interviewing him, I was like, anyone around me now? And he's like, nope. And I was like, imagine, like that's how ashamed they are of me that they're actually like not even haunting me from beyond. It's so funny to be that alienated from your bloodline.

You know you say that. I have this, I've just gotten over it, but I'm so alienated. I'm Bangladeshi. I'm so alienated from this community that I love because they just see me as this like slutty ho bag. And I'm really, I mean, I am a bit, but like I also pay my taxes.

I'm smart. But I think it's good, like we're pushing the boundaries and stuff. Like I mean I am a bit but like I also pay my taxes I'm smart I'm a director but I think it's good like we're pushing the boundaries of stuff like I went to mosque I have a almost two year old and I took him to mosque

on New Year's Day it's like the second time he's ever been just for my mum and I bumped into this like elderly gentleman he's like 50ish and he said

I love your podcast by the way shut up and then he was like you know what it's good because it's not just about sex and I'm standing in mosque

with my two year old-old and this guy. And I'm like, progress. That's something. That is something. The Ghoris are still living in the 1900s. So when I'm in a mosque one day carrying my child. There's fucking billions of us. It's like, of course we're fucking.

I know. Who's pretending? We're fucking way more than anyone else. Who else has 600 cousins? We are the biggest shaggers. We're topaggers the thing is i think they know we're shagging but they're like then people get weird if we talk about it or if we enjoy it like we're not allowed to talk about having a good time with it yeah like i loved it you said you said that you were at your happiest when you had good sex i feel like that is part of our mental health that is part of feeling good about our bodies and

our brains. It's vital. It's vital to a chemical release, you know, and all the intimacy and the oxytocin, the cuddle hormone, et cetera. Intimacy is a big deal for me and affection is a big deal for me. And I grew up not thinking that would be the case. I grew up thinking it wasn't a priority and it was something to be embarrassed of. And I'm really glad that I've freed myself from those shackles

because it's been a massive part of my mental health recovery personally. I have a question for both of you. I'll go to you first, Rubina. Are you having good sex? I know the answer to this, so it'll be short enough if I can go to you. I just wanted to make it feel included.

Yes. Yes, I knew that. You're on as a G. I've been with someone for a long time. So like, I feel like they know you they know your body they know where to go and it can be like when you're in love as well it has it can reach new heights but I still come most times again quite all right so the answer to you is yes Jamila are you having good sex yes yes I wouldn't I wouldn't be in a relationship

with someone if I wasn't because there's billions of people on the planet. So that would be ridiculous. Someone ask me if I'm having good sex. Are you having good sex? Go on, are you having good sex? I'm not having good sex. And I'm really happy about that. But you know what you're doing? I'm just shagging around.

You're having sex with many, many people, which is your, you know, that's also, that's something. You're on the discovery journey for good sex. So right now you're becoming really good at sex because you're in your sort of... You're training. I'm training. I'm training.

I'm also having sex with people who don't know my body, who don't know who I like. Obviously, you know, we have a conversation. This is what I'm into. But like, I genuinely now believe, I'd come out of a very loving, amicable 10-year relationship with Jamila about two years ago.

So I'm having my glow up quite literally. Yeah. And I genuinely am of the firm belief and Rubina you said this in series three or one I can't remember but you have the best sex I think with someone who knows your body and who understands your body and understands

that dance like when I'm having sex with these guys they don't know me you know i sent a text to my friend this morning she said how was it i said i i think i was pretty average that's pretty rusty when the last time i had sex was the 21st of october so it was a while and you just i i just forgot forgot to have you know what i mean i can't it's a dance and they don't know my body they don't know memory yeah they don't know my erogenous zones so like about pheromones and chemistry like there's certain things that don't even really matter about skill set or energy or familiarity it's like if it's just not there it's not there

i want to tell you guys something i i have a really bad relationship which i'm trying to unlearn with my body image and sex and it's really fucked up right and i had to have a word with myself which is why i went on these dates i have this thing i haven't told you like i have to be a certain obviously i put on weight i was like genocide eating my feelings whatever and i put on weight and i now i i would refuse to go on a date with anyone till i got to a certain weight in me because i wasn't yeah right yeah and i had to tell myself the last fuckable pound yes it's like diet culture and this really fucked up relationship with diet culture and body and sex and I was just like that's why that's why I haven't I was like I don't feel sexy I feel fat I can't fuck anyone

I'm fucking these younger guys I have to look good it's and then I was just like what are you doing like life is literally going you're going to be 40 next year like you need to calm the fuck down you need to live you need to have fun I had to have a real chat with myself

my only thing my only hang up when I was dating was like I'm quite a hairy person and actually I've been thinking recently you know when you go for a wax

it'd be nice if they could just like give you a proper trim down there if you don't want to get rid of it all you know just actually like coiff it but that'd be my thing

my only thing is like I wanted to feel like down there looked like trim because i would hate the idea of a guy going down on me one night stand day whatever we're doing and him even remotely get one of my hair stuck in his mouth it's really it was just really really crazy i was kissing that sober guy yesterday did great tash and i had a hair in my mouth and i was like he doesn't give a shit does he i was like and i find that really like i hate the word icky it's not icky but i took it out i was such a lady that's just it they're not thinking they're not thinking about all these He doesn't give a shit, does he? I was like, and I find that really like, I hate the word icky. It's not icky, but I took it out. I was such a lady.

That's just it. They're not thinking. They're not thinking about all these self-conscious things. Like this is all in our, this is all in our head. And it's so great that I have been able to prove to myself that it doesn't make a difference. And that actually most men are just really happy to be with a naked woman. And that has been a wonderful revelation to me and if i

hadn't gained all the weight i would never have known that i would have always thought that my and what's also ironic is that when i was at my thinnest i didn't have the energy to shag anyone yeah i think between like 24 and 26 or 27 i didn't shag anyone because i was fucking tired my oestrogen was on the floor i was so hungry and i just felt completely completely unsexual how do you feel if someone said jamila jamil she's not a girl's girl would that sear your heart no i mean the amount of fucking bullshit that's written about me publicly nothing bothers me anymore um do you still get a lot of bullshit i bet you get a lot of bullshit yeah you do yeah well because i i you know i i fly too close to the sun a lot of the time like i

you know i pick you're that mythical creature what's that guy called the one who's icarus shit jesus you're our cult leader no there is a mythical creature who flew up near the sun it's icarus i'm telling you it's icarus okay right i i don't feel like a victim of it because i also see ways in which i perpetuated the shit that i got you know i threw a lot of stones from a glass house like i can see where i went wrong and i spoke in a really clumsy way that i hugely regret now because i could have made the same point without being so inflammatory and i would never speak that way now not because i've been disciplined by the public but because i

realized i ended up alienating a lot of the people i most wanted to communicate to and i think liberals have absolutely lost our minds we have lost our fucking minds we have lost the plot as to how we communicate with the people who disagree with us we think that you can just bully and shame and name people into agreeing with you. And all that does is create public obedience. It doesn't change the way that people vote and it doesn't change the way that people engage within systems of oppression. And so I have become a much less violent communicator because I want to reach across to the people who don't understand me or who want to take away my rights. And I want to appeal to them via empathy because the other way doesn't fully work. You need both. You need both. You need a fight, but you also need some

form of empathetic communication. So I'm trying to engage more in that. But I think we live in a society like you said, you've spoken in an inflammatory way before, but like, I do feel like we live in a society where, especially as women, in fact, we're not allowed to make those mistakes. Because when we make those mistakes and come to a new idea, we get fucking gunned down. Right. Well, that was just it. It was also like, you know, after me, too, like it was so weird to go from people only ever asking me when I was on T4 or Radio One. Like, so what's your favorite lipstick?

What's your morning routine? What do you eat in a day? Is that what people ask you? It's so weird. All people ask me. Oh my God, that's such a blast from the past. It's so, they're so banal. It's just like, so what's your favourite kind of hat?

You know, and people, like a girl came up to me at Latitude Festival and was like, you're my lipstick inspiration. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to jump in front of a fucking trainer. Having said all this, Jamila, I actually do love your lipstick colour now. I'm joking. now but also i guess the point is you can be both i love the frivolous yeah i love i love the fact that i love hair i love makeup i love clothes i love i love

all the nonsense but i also don't want that to be the way in which i have only way which i've impacted someone's life if at all um i but but my point being that like that's what i represented to people was just nonsense and so uh when it came about with me too movement where suddenly people were like what do you think of the giant social infrastructure of the history of misogyny so a bunch of us who were willing to speak had never spoken on any of this stuff before we've been terrorized out of even saying that we were feminists so now to be asked about these very complex historical systems that are also deeply emotional and traumatic for us,

some of us, those of us who really went like fucking went for it, we fucked it up because we'd never spoken about this shit publicly before. No one ever asked us what we think about anything other than the way that we look. And so it was clumsy and it was chaotic. And then we got demonized for it. And it's like, fucking hell, man. Like we're not UN like politicians who are like skilled orators who've been trained

in how to speak about these very complex divisive issues. We were just a bunch of actresses and you know, whatever, celebrities who were trying this out for the first time. A lot of us used to having our words written for us, you know, on screen and now speaking from the heart. It's a very dangerous dangerous raw thing to do and and we were we were demonized for it and so i recognize i made a lot of mistakes but i also give myself so much grace because i would extend

that grace to any other woman who's trying speaking her mind and her heart for the first time it's like fucking hell give her a minute man give her a minute to find her feet thank god you did thank god you spoke up and you know for all british asian women because you still are a british asian woman even though you live yeah like i mean i i don't know how much longer i'm going to be here i i'm really homesick oh that's that could be good news for us and those porn houses you've been living in but like exactly you know like south South Asian women we tend to like we were talking

about at the start of the podcast how we tend to be a bit more like there's only space for one of us and like they're just

they're just a space for all of us and how we have each other's backs now this new generation is just really I'm so excited about it because Asians as well man

we'd like case each other up and be like there's only one in the village but now that's gone out the window I've always said that like you must never look

I've never been a competitive person the only thing that I'm glad about is that I didn't, I don't have that sort of wiring. I've always wanted like, you know, to be a co-conspirator with women, never a competitor, because I've never been able to understand the scarcity mindset when there are so many men who are so similar to each other. And so like some are extraordinary and some are very ordinary and they all feel as though they have a right to try. And we just don't really have that same mindset by design because if we are together, look at how powerful we are when we are with one another, when we exchange stories, when we exchange notes. And so we are deliberately

divided to be conquered. And the most impactful move you can make is always drawing other women in to be your co-conspirator, because the power is immeasurable. My entire career is down to all of the women in my life. Like I'm only represented by women and they are so strong and they are so like ferociously intelligent and supportive. And we all lift each other up. And I would have nothing without those other women. Everyone seems to think because, you know, it's me on Instagram that I'm just doing all of this by myself. I couldn't do any of it without other girls. And so it is by design that we have been, that someone like me was alienated from other women and it was other women who saved me and, and helped me find my sanity. I would still be crazy and mentally ill and gaslit by society if

I was only spending my time with men not understanding the system in which i was being oppressed what's your most girl girl sex advice like something you wished you had known when you were younger give notes give notes give notes oh that's good most most men are way more depending on the way that you deliver it if you deliver it without shame so telling someone i think i was 27 the first time i said to someone you know i i actually don't love i want to kiss you but i don't love the way that we're kissing could we try something else and then we try something else and then it worked and then it got great and so starting to do that with sex of like not being too afraid to advocate for myself because eventually at some point your brain loses that will to gaslight yourself into the idea that you're

having a good time um and then you start to go off that person so it gives you both the best shot at i guess um at longevity to tell the truth so that i mean they want you to have a great time they want you to go home and sing their praises to all of your girlfriends as a wonder cock, you know? And so I think that women with women find it much easier from, you know, my experience to be able to give each other notes. But when it comes to men, we've been so terrified of their fragile egos.

And there are gonna be some men who are gonna respond badly to that. Then you shouldn't be giving that man your vagina. Yeah. Like, so if you're afraid to advocate for what you need, like we're so open to whatever they want. We're like, did you have a nice time? That's the first question we have afterwards. It's like, was that okay for you?

So, but, but they aren't trained to do the same thing. And so like, it's so ridiculous to me, this idea that we're all supposed to be psychic. And just, we're meeting someone for the first time with complete strangers. And we're going to know everything about their individual, very personal sensory needs. It's ridiculous. In the same energy that you have to learn what would make them happy, you should be with someone who has that same energy for you. And it completely changes sex.

Communication is the key to sex. I used to be very afraid of like the bdsm world until i did this documentary for the bbc um about sex and about pornography etc and i met someone from within the bdsm community who told me something that genuinely changed my attitude of sex forever which is that um within the bdsm community like when people are like meeting up on chat rooms or like on sorry sorry, that really shows my age on dating apps. Our age. Shout out MSN Messenger.

On MSN Messenger. We love a chat room chat. MSN Messenger, throwback, dial up. Yeah. So, you know,

but, but when they meet each other on the apps, they send each other a list that they have like on their notes app of like what they like and what they don't like sexually. And so that's one of the first exchanges that they have so that the other person can read it and be like, yeah, I'm into that. Or, you know what, actually, we're not compatible. And then they don't have sex. They don't meet up. They don't waste each other's time.

They have completely removed the stigma from self-advocating for your own pleasure. They've made it completely normal so everyone's so clear going in and so i used to think that that was the most terrifying sexual community but actually it's one of the safest sexual communities i said this from day dark they talk to each other all based on consent and communication yeah and so communicating and advocating for yourself is like a very a it means you're much more likely to have good sex and b it will sort the wheat from the chaff or let you know who's actually worth shagging because if someone's not interested in your pleasure because their ego is too fragile then that that is a boy and you should not have sex with him yeah this is a great piece of advice

give notes and don't be afraid to use the notes app while giving notes yeah just do it kindly don't shame someone don't yeah don't don't shame someone don't do it in a way of like you didn't do a good job because it's not that they're doing a bad job that's not how you should look at it you should look at it as right now you have different tastes and different compatibilities can you find a way to come together your personal dislike for something doesn't mean they're necessarily bad at it obviously some people are just bad at things i'm bad at reverse cowgirl but it's just about looking at like hey let's just meet each other in the middle we're strangers we have different bodies how do we make this amazing for both of us there must be some

universal things that everyone like just likes though kissing on the neck who doesn't like kissing on the neck nobody is not going to like kissing on the neck do you like it totally but everyone's so particular do you know exactly where and for how long exactly on the neck, not so nice as just lips on the neck. And then where is the tongue? You're right. It's so subjective. We're just very specific Rubik's cubes. It's fucking crazy that we are discouraged from talking about sex.

It's most intimate and fundamental kind of intimate exchange between two people. The fact that we are just like, no, it's smarter to just get in a dark room with a stranger and figure it out. I know, it's mental. And hope that they like

your finger up their arsehole. It doesn't make any sense. You're six gin and tonics in. It's dark. Okay. You don't know what you're doing. You're fumbling around. Just rushing around.

You don't even think about this. This is the most intimate you're ever going to be. When I say like the most vulnerable you're naked yeah no one is speaking and it's like you're just grunting your way through it makes no sense no sense no it's it's fucking ridiculous and so since i was about 27 so that's 10 years now i've been like i've been just very gently and kindly vocal about what i prefer and encourage them to do the same. And I have not had bad sex in 10 years. Wow.

That's a big claim. Good for you. I have bad sex on the regular. I'm all right with that. Well, listen, listen, I bet you are becoming the fucking Simone Biles. No, no. Congratulations to you. I'm free. I need to do thatiles maybe you should have a couple more sti checks i need to do that i really do but i do i do just want to remind you like i said some of the best sex in my life uh including

actually like when i got with james i was a lot bigger than I am now. It really isn't dependent on your size. It is so, so, so dependent on the way that you carry yourself and the way that you feel. It's so much more about chemistry and skill in that bedroom. And so I really urge you to remember that for me personally, anyway, when I was the most controlled and the most hungry and the most deprived is always the worst sex i've ever been for someone else and the worst sex i've ever had and the least sex i've ever had it's so important to to never look at that as as the barrier that we've been taught it is thank you so much for joining us oh my god it's been an absolute joy two surreal moments doing this podcast look at me

the other producers are really happy two surreal moments on this podcast Meera Sayal and Nina Wadia from Goodness Reaches Me and you

like people you grew up with watching on telly and they're like on the podcast we're like oh my god this is so good I mean really thank you so much

thank you so much for your time thank you so much for having me for your service for your service for just the fucking so much for having me for your service to all your friends for your service for just the fucking queen of BS

for being a public fuck up so that the rest of us feel alright about fucking up exactly that's what you do for us thanks for being a shit Jesus we love you Jesus see ya

bye as always we have some urgent dilemmas we need to answer. We're your Shaggy Aunties! You've reached the Shaggy Aunties call centre. Want advice you can't ask your real aunties for? Like, how do you ask for what you want in bed? Not sure which hole is a goal?

Where do anal beads really go? Have you been faking orgasms your whole adult life? Accidentally called your boss daddy? Is your long-time love not going down south? For more than just the tip, we're here for you. Yes, you. And you. And you.

Please remember to ask the bill payers' permission before calling us shagging aunties, are not medical professionals, and bear no responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. What advice is needed this week? Well, I will just get straight into it. This listener has asked, should I tell sexual partners that I have genital herpes? I feel so awkward about it, but a lot of people have it. So maybe it's more shocking when someone doesn't have herpes or is it really bad not to? Firstly, you know, we love getting these messages from you to our inbox.

It's really, thank you so much for sharing this. You know, just straight from the top, not medical professionals. You need to tell them and have sex with protection, I imagine, right?

I think it's good to mention it. Be upfront with it. Why are we embarrassed about genital herpes? I'll tell you why. Because it doesn't sound very good. And I'm not saying there are some STIs

that sound better than others, but if like, everyone just says they have the clap and that sounds kind there are some STIs that sound better than the others, but if like everyone just says they have the clap and that sounds kind of fun. Chlamydia sounds better than genital herpes. Syphilis is the worst. Syphilis sounds awful. I nearly got syphilis. Whereas genital herpes just has a ring to it

that it doesn't really work. The producer's going to cut this out because it sounds like we're being really judgmental. I don't think so, I'm not. Because like genital herpes, like it's hard and I completely understand. I relate to this listener because it's really hard to be like, we're having a drink and you're like, byal. I don't think so, I'm not. Because genital herpes, it's hard. And I completely understand. I relate to this listener because it's really hard to be like,

we're having a drink and you're like, by the way, I have this thing that I should just tell you about. It's up to you to decide whether you want to sleep with or not. It's the genital bit. It's the genital herpes. But herpes by itself isn't working.

Yeah, because you don't get cold sores. What about herpes of the genitalia? Maybe that'd be a better way to say it. It sounds quite regal. That's the point. If you make the thing Sound better for you And the clap sounds regal

Peaky blinders Pull that back Clap the clap She's got the clap But I guess this listener's saying I've got herpes I'm always going to have it It's not going to go away

Yeah I think it's good To know some of the stats Like know enough about What you've got So that when you Know your questions You're like You have enough to say

Oh absolutely You need to know about Whatever you have like you need to all the information um because when you ask a new partner or a date i would be armed to the hilt with them because people are gonna have questions like i would have a million and one questions about genital i mean i guess it's like again we're not medical professions professionals and actually what we try to do on this podcast is we encourage people to talk and be open and communicate. I think, you know, it is very common, but that doesn't that doesn't give you the right to decide to not disclose that information. I think it's your responsibility to disclose it, because I think the line is like maybe it's more shocking when someone doesn't have herpes.

I think actually herpes would be a surprise in a relationship. It's not so common that everybody has it. But yes, a good percentage of the population have it. But I do think it's your responsibility to let the other person know. I think ultimately you do need to tell the person. And I would want to know. And if I had it, I don't think in my right conscious mind I could go around sleeping with people knowing I've got this.

Which reminds me I really need to get an STD test done quite quickly I also think again much like what we do on the podcast by talking about it you break the stigma you normalise it

it becomes the kind of conversation you have in the pub over a drink over dinner do you know what I mean? like 10, 15, 20 years ago how many brown women

were talking about sex as openly as they were right? now you've got the Jameela Jameels you've got this podcast, how many brown women were talking about sex as openly as they were, right? Now you've got the Jameela Jamil's, you've got this podcast that so many brown women are owning sex and their sexuality

and talking about it and all the things that come with it, which also includes genital herpes. Maybe you could become a genital herpes ambassador and like really raise awareness

around the issue. Maybe you should use it as like an empowerment tool. Yeah. Get more people talking. Maybe you should have a podcast about genital herpes yeah herpes and burpees no genuinely um don't be embarrassed tell them empower yourself be confident when you say it

be confident in yourself and just own it and i actually think you're right like know stuff about it like stats facts how it can be contagious when it isn't contagious. How many people have it? So I have a fucking colt on my lip. Some people either get it on your lip or you get it down there. I just got it on my lip. Still herpes. Still herpes.

Thank you so much for listening. As ever, Brown Girls Do It Too fans. And if you have any thoughts thoughts questions or dilemmas for the shagging aunties you can email us at brown girls do it too at bbc.co.uk or you can send us a whatsapp or voice note on 07968100822 let's have it one more time 0796 sorry 07968 108 22 bye