Brown Girls Do It Too - Queer Brown Love with Ryan Lanji

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

Poppy is joined by producer, curator and TV personality Ryan Lanji to talk about queer brown love, embracing all aspects of being a 'hot mess' and what his red, green and amber flag are when it comes to dating. Have a message for Poppy? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail]. If you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

I was busy thinking about Boys Actually no I was thinking about How this podcast Will contain strong language And themes of an adult nature Should I have been

Thinking about boys? No Because that would have been Like very on the nose of me And how cliched of me To be like Just because you're a queer Gay guy

You're going to be Thinking about boys You were thinking about Dinosaurs and sandwiches earlier No one knows I'm gay No I'm joking Have you seen my trousers dinosaurs and sandwiches earlier no one knows I'm gay no I'm joking have you seen my trousers

did you see my face I know I was like what this place is am I gay the acting classes are working

I'm Poppy J and you might have heard me on the award winning podcast Brown Girls Do It Too which I present with my work wife, Rubina. We speak about everything, from our sex lives to female rage, and from Excel spreadsheets that our tax-dodging uncles would be proud of

to the complicated relationships we have with our families. Rubina's taking some time off after just having a baby, but she set me a boy-related assignment. Since the beginning of time, women have been treated as the more mysterious sex, but can anyone really claim to understand the hearts, minds, and the dicks of men? So this is Big Boy Energy, a podcast where I'm on a mission to delve deep into the recesses of what men want, what they really think, and find the answers we all want to know. We've spoken about mummy's boys, male beauty standards and guy code,

but we haven't heard about brown queer culture. Today is a special day because I'm joined by the icon, the legend, there are no other words to describe him, Ryan Lange. Hello. I went out last night, so I have like a really good, like sexy hungover voice. My wifey Rubina has left me a little voice note to get things started. Hey BB, my question this week is, what do you most envy about queer men? I think there's a lot to envy as well.

The culture, the style, good club culture. I think would be my, and no one's asking me because these questions are all for you. So let us know. It's a great question. What do I admire most about queer culture? I think I love your style and your flair and this zero fucks given attitude. And I don't know if I'm presumptuous in saying the freedom,

but it certainly looks like freedom. When I've been to like, there's a night called Pussy Palace that I go to. Yeah. And it's specifically for queer people of colour. I do stand there sometimes and I envy, like I'm not a very envious person. Like I don't envy and it's envy is sort of you know near to jealousy but it's this fashion and style and rawness and creativity that just is emanating from everyone's body and I'm just like I really want that yeah the queer

audacity is like unrivaled yeah yeah like I think it's incredible when you you live a life like trying to become one thing because you need to either assimilate or just go under the radar and then once you free yourself from it you're just unstoppable like I have velcro on my arms and I don't know why I also and I know this is such a fucking obvious thing to say like queer style holy fucking shit when you walked into that room all of us were like even I was like wow we were like the funny thing is

I got ready in like five minutes of course you fucking did I had like five minutes to leave the house but like I am deeply inspired by fashion

and I also am deeply inspired by creatives who create things that people buy so I look at them for inspiration I don't look at

what's being sold you're looking at the leaders you're not looking at the followers yeah so I'm like thinking about the people that I, what people would wear when, if I was like Andy Warhol or Nicola Formichetti or like John Galliano, what were they wearing?

How are they dressing? And I just try to like channel that. Today it's K-pop Dior meets utilitarian. You are by far the best dressed guest we have ever had on Big Boy Energy and Brian Gould's do it too, because we let in the brown men now on that podcast. Well, I'm here to elevate our community, visibility and audacity.

What happens with the Velcro? Do you just, is it just... Honestly, they have absolutely no use. No use, okay. They just hang around. I realized that as I get older, my fashion is quite dangly. I just like, I love a tassel. I love like another extension of my body that I can just

flail around. Like those car washing things. That's basically how I am. What you love about queer culture? What I love about queer culture is just like, I guess our fearless freedom of expression. I think it's our levels of understanding in situations. Like I think some of my greatness has come from just being able to read a room, know what people want to hear uh play um to the cameras to the people to like to the room to the culture and just be able to build on it like i think it's it must be really boring to be straight you know what yeah yeah i mean i'm bi curious but i'm fucking straight yeah but i'm gonna be whatever you want i think the idea of having to come out of the closet is ridiculous. Look at my fashion.

I never was in the closet. Yeah. Why did you put me there? In your mind, there's a closet. There's a closet of secrets, dark skeletons in your closet, not mine. So where are you from from? Oh my God, that's so rude. No, no, no, no, no.

Where are you from from? I'm segwaying. I'm teeing you up. Okay, fine. I am from Canada. So we were talking about this, about the South Asian diaspora in Canada where I was saying

to you there are so many cool creatives and ideas and things coming out of Canada because there's a real collective, there's a real community and we were saying that the South Asian diaspora here, there's a lot of baggage, the geopolitics of what's happened back home

we carry that intergenerational trauma a bit deeper the scars yeah when I told my mum I wanted to go into this industry not necessarily this podcast she doesn't know I'm making it lol you know I'm a director I work in documentaries and she just didn't understand like my documentaries would come on tv she'd just walk out the room Like there is such a hesitancy to support, it's changing now, but there is such a hesitancy to support millennials, geriatric millennials like myself, to go into the arts. We're seeing it now with Gen Z, but before it was Dr. Lawyer, you know, the STEM subjects, right?

So you're seeing a change, but I have a lot of friends, gay friends who are still in the closet, who are still hiding, who are still leading that double life. The singularity is what you're speaking of, which is like the beauty is in existing as one thing at all times. Like brown people are so fractured in their character, in their truth, in their identity. Like, oh, I'm from London, but I'm really from South Hall. Or I'm actually a banker, but I want to be a dancer. Like my parents don't know that I'm dating this guy. Or my parents don't know I'm drinking. Or I'm Hindu, but I don't practice.

It's like everything is fractured. Just be the mess that you are. And that is queer. Wow. That was incredible. It's true. I think that sort of the intersectionality, the dichotomy of it is brilliant. So I want to go back to that point that you said about Gen Z.

I don't think Gen Z paved the way. I think millennials did. Really? They fly millennials did, but they fly under the radar. They fly under the radar. A.K.A. myself. Let's please talk about how we raised the game. What did we do? Well, basically, you're speaking about how Canadians, or let's say like people from the Commonwealth

or other like more Americanized places were able to have a different perspective. I think that our parents who moved there already started to embrace the idea of westernization. And so I think that we should hold a high regard for British people, British South Asians who identify as South Asian or brown. I think like they have a lot more turmoil to go through. I learned this through my night. I started Hungama like really optimistically and being like, oh my God, like we're all brown, let's listen to Bollywoodwood and then slowly i started to have people come to me being like we don't listen to bollywood

we're bangladeshi or like we're gujarati and like or like we're tamil and i really started to learn about the different hues of being brown and um and once i started realizing that most of the people in the uk don't identify as bollywood they don't identify as north indian or bangra yeah or bangra and stuff like that so like you were just like thrust into this corner that you had to all agree that you were in and band together in order to survive and so you haven't been given a moment to thrive and yeah so I really feel I have so much compassion for you and like for the British South Asian diaspora yeah I'm here to fight for those people and their voices and their creativity.

I loved what you said earlier about brown people not having, having to be fractured. And I really, that really resonated with me because I feel like that. The code switching, the I'm like a part-time Muslim and the door opens to my mum and then I'm the fucking hoe

and I'm the raver and I'm this with my friend and I'm here and I'm here and I'm here. And this is the other thing I was saying. I feel the tide is turning, but there is a sort of collectivism that you see in the black community that you don't really see in the diaspora here in the UK. We're still beefing. I had to draw my white friend a mind map. I said, here's the thing, Pakistanis hate Bangladeshis, Bangladeshis hate Pakistanis because India came in fourth. Then you've

got the beef between Punjabis and Gujaratis then North and South India then Pakistan Afghanistan and it's just you can't keep up there's so much like we're so fractured but I think that

we're getting better I think it takes a generation almost like a tidal wave hitting the shore like it takes a bunch of them or to start eroding

old beliefs and like I think what's important to know here is that coming out as queer was the exact same as me coming out as creative in the Brown community. Like I told my parents I wanted to be a filmmaker and then be in the arts

and they fell to the floor and started crying. And then so I knew that telling them that I was gay would have the same reaction. Like, and- You may as well do two birds with one stone. That's actually quite smart. Yeah, so now I'm a gay filmmaker. No, I'm joking.

I didn't even do film. I moved into the world the experimental laboratory that is London but like I I really feel like we need to start asking our brown counterparts

cousins brothers sisters lovers to just start being more real and authentic like tell your parents that you drink

tell your parents that you don't want to go to the good water because you don't believe in Sikhism or like you just need to you need to say these things and just be honest about it because then then you

can find a real beauty in connecting with it like I'm more spiritual and religious than I've ever been because I've rejected it and then came back to it rather than being forced to have it um I'm forced to have my identity forced to have a career forced to have um any sort of preconceived notion of what my life should look like 10 10 years, I led a double life and I enabled those that lying. I'm a pathological liar. All of us who lead double lives, it's so easy for us to lie.

And I have perpetuated that. And actually, if I'd said to my parents, I'm dating a white militant atheist, they probably would have fallen to the floor. But good on them. They need to learn. No, I'm joking. It's by exposing the truth, maybe not too much, they probably would have fallen to the floor, but good on them. They need to learn. No, I'm joking. It's, it's, it's by exposing the truth, maybe not too much. They probably would have had a heart attack that 10 years down the line, they would have been like, okay,

he can come to the house. You know, he can be invited for dinner. Whereas I upheld this lie, like so many, I'm not unique in that situation. It's, it's just so normalized and mainstream in our community to be this fractured individual, to keep lying, to tell your parents that you don't have a sex podcast, to tell them that you don't drink, to tell them that you've got a white girlfriend, a black girlfriend, a white boyfriend, whatever. And we just continue to uphold this status quo.

And it's so ultimately damaging for the community because you can't move on because it's distracting. True. I mean, we let it happen. Like as you're speaking, I'm thinking about little like small choices that our parents made in conversations or within our families that we didn't have a say in. Like when I introduced my mum to my partner at the time, when I was younger, she started telling everyone that he was my friend and I was okay with that. And it's like, you allow these lies to sort of fracture your soul. And then they turn into these massive caverns of doubt and shame and insecurity. And so I think like I crossed a point, maybe in 2020, where I was like, I'm just gonna allow myself to be all the hot mess that I am. And so yes, okay, cool. I'm a party animal. Yes, I've indulged in recreational drugs. Yes, I've had sex. Yes, I like to talk about things that everyone thinks is third rail. But I know about all these things.

I've experimented with all of them. And I can come here and stand tall and proud and not be under your lead or guise. Or I don't subscribe to your belief system because I've explored all of them. Do you think there's a fine line between respecting culture and traditions from generations ago and embracing this modern way of living? Like, is there a fine line? Do you oscillate between the two? Or is it actually, are they two very separate things? Well, this is when Bollywood plays a big role

in like how I see the world. Like one of the arguable best films I've ever come out in Bollywood is Kabi Kushika Bikam. You know, like, Bolichuriam, Bolikangana. There you go. It doesn't matter where you're from, what region youabigam you know like Bolichuriam Bolikangana there you go it doesn't matter

where you're from what region you're in you know that song it unites us all the reason that film is a success is because Karan Johar brought in capitalism

he brought in Gap hoodies and Nike tops and considered to be one of the most religious films of all time so it's like

how come we can't see that that was modern in its own right like Pooh was like so us like we were so her. Kareena Kapoor, like she was us. And so it's like, I don't actually have any idea

of what modernism looks like. I am modern. I am me right now. And like, so my belief system does not need to be validated by anybody. Like I have a tattoo of Ganesh on my chest. I believe in the remover of obstacles. His elephant head is exactly the elephant in the room

that I was when I was queer. Like I'm so connected to him. I don't need to like go hark back to a certain time where it was accepted or my belief match anything. My belief is as prismatic and abstract as I want it to be. God, it's getting deep, isn't it? Can anyone ever really be free? Like how free can you be? You know, you was talking about being a hot mess and you're allowed to be that way. But there are so many Asians that I know, cousins that just, just again coming back to double lives i'm not even double double lives just like is there something that you want to share oh i've shared it all yeah great because like you don't have a double life anymore so like and i think well i guess i guess there's so much my parents

don't know yeah so it's almost like it's not that i'm leading a double life it's i'm now doing it someone once said to me that like in the light, there's no room for shadow. And like, I think what's really beautiful is like, you just got to say it. Like I, my mum asked me if I was queer when I was 19 years old. And I sat there at the end of the bed, just wondering whether or not I should lie to her further. And I remember being like, why prolong her pain? And like, why prolong this obstacle that we both have to overcome? So I told her and I knew that

it would be a long journey for her to accept me and I was okay with that because it took me 19 years to figure out that I was queer it's gonna take her time and like now I'm sure she's proud of me I'm sure she loves me and on Diwali I know that she is praying for me and like I adore her so much and like I just know that I would never be accepted by her in a way that would make her feel comfortable. But it's not going to stop my life. I'm only here for one lifespan. And it could be shorter than I imagined. So just go be gay.

Should everyone just go be gay? Go be gay. Try it. Are you single at the moment? Yeah. Okay. Well, let's just say. At the time of recording, I was single.

Basically, I, yeah. Okay. Let's say yes. Okay. Let's say yes. recording, I was single. Basically, I yeah. OK, let's say yes. OK, let's say yes. Let's follow that thought. Let's say yes. How is dating as a brown queer boy different to dating as a straight brown girl? I'll tell you about my experiences. It's so interesting dating as a brown gay queer person, because you immediately like feel when you get thrust out of your religion and your culture, when they're like, you can't be gay.

Fuck off. You just like run to the nearest Soho. And then you're just like in a gay club full of white people. And everyone's like, oh my God, you're so exotic. And you're like, cool. What do you think I am? I'll be that. And then I'm like, I'm Brazilian.

I'm Portuguese. Apparently I can be a bit Jamaican for you if you want. Like I can be whatever you want. And then you start dating white guys. And then you realize that they know nothing about you. And there's always this sort of like this complex obstacle that you just can't get through. And it's because they don't understand you or they'll make references like call you rice queen. I've been called a rice queen once.

What's a rice queen? I've never heard of it. Being Asian. Oh my God, of course. Sorry, I didn't even clock. Yeah, exactly right. After dealing with that and then having to be like, no, that's not cool. And starting a beautiful movement like hangama where it's like a queer south asian club night you start to see a familiarity and you get this awareness of like people who get you like i'm chatting with you and you're like

he's cool let's hang out more i'm assuming that i just don't know the fact that i'm pretty sure you said that off air can we roll back the tape but basically i just i feel like once you start seeing people like yourself you're like okay cool i don't need to subscribe to anyone else and and so dating becomes more fun because there's a familiarity but then you got to work through your trauma though I've been dating a lot of people who are my skin color and um who are from religion similar to mine and like we all have baggage and so I kind of feel like I kind of want to date more people who have like the same like soul maturity. Like their soul is as mature as mine.

Yes. You make those mistakes much more than you do succeed finding your soulmate. Do you date white guys or do you date people of color mostly? I think my track record has been white guys. And then I've dated one person of color. But then I feel like I'm never really attracted to a certain aesthetic. Like it's never one of those things where I'm like,

oh, I like gingers or like I love, I love like a person of color. Like it's just about, it's more like a sapiosexual, someone who's attracted to- Intelligence. Intelligence. You see, I told you, you liked me. Of course I liked you.

I'm joking. I liked you from the moment you walked in. Of course I do. I'm exactly the same. Obviously she'll have to be fit though. Give her more personal. So I was basically forced into a marriage with a brown guy. And I have a massive chip on my shoulder about straight brown men. They don't like me.

I don't like them. So then I date white guys, black guys. And I was talking about this on the podcast where I said, I don't mind a white guy fetishizing me. So as long as it's in the bedroom, right? So it's a blurred line and it's a fine line. Like it's a very binary thing when you, for attraction, fit, not fit, white, black, East Asian, Puerto Rican, whatever. It gets very fishy when you are being fetishized and when I just go for this kind of guy or I just go for this kind of girl.

And I said something, I didn't think that was that controversial, but it was honest, you know? And I think that we need to be honest about sex. I said, I don't mind being fetishized in the bedroom and my hair I don't mind it but outside of the bedroom he can't be talking to me like that and he certainly can't be talking to other women like that Outside of the bedroom I am not your poppadum pillow

Is that what you're saying? Pretty much Great, I love this for you I would draw a line at him putting on an accent Better than being a samosa chat I don't mind being a samosa chat. I don't mind being a samosa chat. It's way better than a pop of tomato.

I mean, yes, really wet and delicious. Exactly. Moist. So do you find when you were in that part of your journey? So right now,

while you're talking to me, I'm like trying to pretend that like my sex life is like a private garden, but really it's a public park. So like it's a situation where I don't really think about it like I've had more of a queer experience where like sex has always been drug fueled and

party fueled and like a lot of like crazy things and experimentations happened and like as soon as they invented prep and you're like okay cool like I can have sex in any different way like I just went and did that and so like I only now I'm kind of getting to a more like one-to-one situation where I'm dating I'm trying to be with someone and understand like you're doing monogamy yeah

what is that I'm joking yeah no of course and I'm really enjoying that process but I've had to go through a lot of like learning what I didn't like and a lot of situations

I didn't want to be in and healing from that but I think like I don't mind people who are like fetishistic about my like so you don't mind either I don't mind people who are like, fetishistic about my like, So you don't mind either?

I don't mind it. But I just need to know that they have an awareness. And so like, even if I meet someone and then they like bring up like, beware of the boys and Punjabi MC as a joke or like go, good morning pineapple. Like, and if they do that to me, it's cool. But they need to know that they're making that joke. And they need to know that it's not okay.

But also, i love it i've undulated between like being like poc activism and now being like come on just give me some racism just a little bit yeah like just be a bit like oh my god but do they do it are they are they giving you when they do it's like it's cool to test offense oh i think it's so cool to test offense I love it and how you react to that offense and what they do if you are then offended yeah I mean I love it like my best friend

she's Pakistani and like I'm Hindu and like she we're both North Indian and it's just so funny because once we were sitting together Shami Ahmed I love you

she basically was like saying oh my god could you imagine like 50 years ago like you would have killed me and I was like yeah partition was real and like we're like sitting in our house,

like listening to the Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan on her bed while she's like going to travel somewhere. And it's just like, it's crazy. It's crazy to think how times have changed. But like, we need to remember that like pre-colonization, we all loved each other. Like Indians were super welcoming. We all sat with each other.

We all loved each other. Like we didn't marginalize anyone. We didn't segregate anybody. And so now we come here feeling like we need to categorize ourselves. And it's like, actually, no, like we have way more in common than we do not. And like, I want to remember that when you speak to people who are not of color and people who are Brown and, or like, we have more of a familiarity with ourselves so we can chat about this stuff freely. And we, we kind of desire the we have more of a familiarity with ourselves so we can chat about the stuff

freely and we, we kind of desire the, the electricity of it. Yeah. And like, but when I'm with some people who are white and I'm just like, how dare you? How very dare you? Yeah. Yeah. Like you are unverified. When you look as fucking fabulous as you do and you're walking down Brick Lane, E1, my

old ends. Yeah. And some rude boys are walking past you and they're checking you out and they're walking down brick lane e1 my old ends yeah and some rude boys are walking past you and they're checking you out and they're looking at you do you feel like hostility towards them do you feel like a certain type of way like you're getting eyeballed I learned about the realities of London in a really hard way my first day in London 15 years ago I got a job at a pizza place on brick lane and I remembered I did a trial shift it was like two hours long and then they're like yeah you can speak English so you can serve pizza here on Brook Lane. And I remember I did a trial shift. It was like two hours long. And then they're like, yeah, you can speak English.

So you can serve pizza here. And so I left and I was walking home and I was walking through Alta Bali Park in Whitechapel. And I called my boyfriend at the time and I was like, oh, I'll be home in a second. He's like, cool. I'll put like the jack of potatoes in the oven or whatever he was making.

And all of a sudden someone hugged me from behind. And in my little naive brain, I thought that he like followed me to work and was just like going to like surprise me and walk me home. That's how much of a hopeless romantic I am. I turned around and it was this like rude boy who literally punched me in the face.

And then four other people ran up and started beating the living shit out of me. And I remember the only thing that went through my head was I'm a really nice person. Why are they doing this to me? And it was my first day in London. I was like Audrey Hepburn in Roman holiday. Like I had no idea what Whitechapel was. It's the beginning of the Monopoly board. I want you to know that. So basically I was like just beaten into a pulp. And there was just a moment where I was like,

holy shit, no one in the world knows I'm not okay. I have to fight for my life right now. So I just got up and started just hurling this water bottle that I had in a tote bag. And I basically just hit them and just said, get away from me, I'm a nice person. And I just ran and like, I realized that London's going to be a lot tougher than you think. And so I, after going through that experience, no one can fuck with me.

Like if you want to make fun of my shiny jeans and my beret, I will right hook you so hard. And so that was a life lesson from london i'm so sorry about that no thank you but it's not it's not your fault it's not it's not even their fault it's poor parenting like uh inclusivity and accepting people for who they are is something that we should be like championing and like we should be celebrating our differences and not not our similarities i hate having to ask you this question because every time I or we bring someone from the queer community on and you can tell me, I want your honest opinion.

I'm not gay. Shit. Not even South Asian. We want to move the conversation on, right? And I think we are. Yeah. But sometimes I always hark back to this one thing in terms of the South Asian community accepting gay people and queer culture and i'm talking about it from a uk perspective london do you think that we're

there yet or do you think that we have a lot more fucking work oh we have so much more work ahead of us i think until a black or brown trans person can walk into a room and not be stared at and have equal rights and have a gender neutral toilet we are are not where we need to be. And like, it doesn't need to be some sort of science that you need to understand. You just need to shut up and let it go. Like, and realize that we are all humans. And, um, and some of us are not born in the bodies that we need to be. Our souls are not our bodies. And so we have to go through a long journey to figure it out. And once someone is courageous enough to say who they are, we should celebrate that. I think brown people need to remember that

why do we put hijras on a pedestal and call them magical when we need success and wealth and our babies need to be blessed, but we can't give them the world that they need to have. And we resort them to the streets when it's every other day of the week. Like that really upsets me. I think within brown infrastructures we have a lot

of brown boys and a lot of brown girls or people who identify as the gender that they identify like subscribing to a traditional way of life and it's actually just like hindering us like we're stifling our creativity we're stifling our ability to evolve by like trying to fit these molds and buy cars and get married and have babies and get married and have babies. And get married and have babies. Oh my God, exactly. So you talked about the Hijra community. Who are the Hijra? Okay, Hijras are a community in Indian culture.

They're also in Bangladesh and Pakistan, aren't they? Yeah, exactly. And I think the term Hijra might be a loose term as well, but it's considered the trans community. So anyone who identifies as intersex or trans women, more specifically, they're kind of like shunned in India and like left to do like sex work or just like roam the streets and beg for money.

But like in certain aspects of our religion, like we invite them into our homes and let them bless our families. But it's basically the trans community. I think we need to reappropriate the word hijra and have a bit more pride and respect for it. It's strange because they've got third gender status in India but they're still treated like shit. Yeah.

It's the same in Bangladesh. It's really odd. They've held in such high regard because they blessed the children and the babies but you know, I didn't know this but when the British came

they fucked up the hijra community because that's when they were really shunned but also they did things like women wore saris with no blouses and the British found that so repulsive. Yeah, exactly. They found it so improper

that that's when blouses were invented. I love that from, there's an amazing page on Instagram called Brown History. Yeah, yeah, yeah. India by nature was very queer before it was colonized. And like, I think we're slowly

starting to return to that. I mean, I remember someone said to me once that like every woman in India is a lesbian and every Indian man is gay. We just have yet to figure it out again. Kind of true. So we've brought you on Big Boy Energy. Yeah.

How would you define Big Boy Energy? What is Big Boy Energy to you? Big Boy Energy is confident. It is funny. It is feminine. It is a good dancer. It loves a shot of tequila um what if you're not a good dancer what happens then well i mean if you're enjoying yourself on the dance floor then you're a

good dancer yeah i mean it doesn't matter how you dance yeah see i was thinking like a straight person but you guys are right you're excused brown boy energy and in a beautiful way is someone who is just completely um open and understanding and vulnerable and kind and like, doesn't need to be anything specific. Yeah. It's like queer. Queer is a word that you can't define. So is brown boy energy. I think that's the best description of big boy energy we've had on the show. Um, thanks. It does sound like straight brown boys could take a dollop of your description. Yeah, no, of course. Straight brown boys really do my head in. Like, they are the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard.

Oh, my God. Tell me about straight brown boys and why do they do your head in? They're like the human manifestation of, like, the worst lynx scent. And they think that's chic. It's such an apt description. Yeah. It's like if you really... That is such a cuss.

Oh my God, that is the best. Can I please borrow that? Yeah, of course. Why do you think that? What are the shortcomings of the straight brown boy? Hashtag not all straight brown boys. Yeah, I mean the majority. And I think like the minority of straight brown boys

who don't agree with this, like you're not doing enough work by helping your team like win because you're definitely losing the game. I think it's like this idea that your hair needs to be gelled so hard and that you need to have a logo on your shirt in order to have valid fashion. And experimentation is like, I don't know, wearing a ring on your thumb. Or their index finger. Yeah. Or sometimes a chain.

Yeah. And like doing a gang pose like in an Instagram post by your car is not the one. And also like Lady Gaga isn't a bad artist.

Like you can listen to her and it's okay. Read a book. Read many books. Yeah. We're really trashing brown guys. Not all brown guys hashtag.

But the majority though. And look at that's what you do to us queer people. So if you don't like it that's a taste of your own medicine do you think straight brown boys are also in their own mental straight jacket because they care so much about what people think and that's why they are the way they are which is a cheap links yeah I mean I kind of want to give props to my dad like he he was a man man, but like he totally admired my creativity and like he would let me think outside the box. He didn't want me to be feminine, but I, my natural discourse wasn't to wear dresses and to like, I love Bollywood music and I love wrapping a sari out of like a blanket in the living room.

But like, I didn't want to dress like a woman. I was just having fun and he could see that. that so I think like celebrating the sort of creative explorations we have when we're younger I think is the key to the antidote to the person that we're criticizing at the moment I'm not angry at the straight brown boy I'm more like feeling sad I feel sorry for you because I know that there are thoughts that you have that are actually quite cool and creative and like I would love to unlock those in you like if you want to listen to classical music do it like if you want to I don't know travel to a third world country and learn the language there like do it if you want to um learn how to make roti at home with your mom do it like please do that yeah do it exactly like you don't you're not limited you don't have to prescribe to a certain

lifestyle that's that's the boring part stop being boring yeah but do you think they're sort of like trapped can't express themselves and they're kind of like trapped, can't express themselves, and they're kind of the new aunties of our generation? Yeah, no, of course. Because they are also like... Even the aunties are bored of you. Yeah. But they're trying to get their sons married off, aren't they?

I know. Jesus Christ, fucking take them. I remember being younger and thinking like, I'd meet brown boys and they'd always be like, oh, yo, dude, like, I don't mind you being gay. Like, it's totally cool. Like you're so unique. And it's like, is that it?

Is that all you got? Like I literally just came and did like a total performance for you and like read you to filth and all you got to give me is unique. Like, have I not like given you like a small seed that I've planted in your mind that you can explore yourself a bit more? Well, clearly they have a lot of work to do. I know. Sorry, guys. They do.

But we, you know. So do we. So do we. Yeah. So do we. No one's perfect. No one is perfect. I'm more perfect

than the straight brown guy. And I would agree. So I do want to touch on dating. Yeah. What are some of the red, ambers and green flags when it comes to dating queer men red amber and green yeah the traffic light system yeah i think red red flags are people who probably prolong conversations and don't like want to meet you right away i need to find the dating apps yeah

well dating apps in general like if you meet someone and you kind of like them like if they say yeah i want to take you for a drink gay dating do you do you meet like are you matching and then meeting for a drink like within the two to two three days yeah I think so why not like I'm not saying this is wrong I'm just getting a sense of the timeline it's important that when you meet someone that you make a plan and I think like one of the major obstacles that we go through is that we feel like we need to meet them right away and I think that some of us feel like there's a ticking time bomber so like when we can fall in love or and when we can like you're saying one of your red flags is if you're just talking too much and you're not meeting.

Yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah. That's so annoying. So in straight dating world. Yeah. What's too much for you weeks.

Uh, yeah. Oh, I've been talking to a guy for months. There's one. Well, I've got many, there's many in the gay world.

You're married. Okay, fine. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so yeah,

but sometimes it can be weak. Sometimes it can be days. There's one guy I've got on the roster since 2022 anyone who's self-reflexive enough will realise that there's a pattern

to texting so if someone's texting you at night they're booty calling if someone's texting you on the weekend that means they don't have a life

and don't know how to read Time Out magazine and go and do something and so if they're at work and they're not texting that means they don't care about you enough and they're not checking in I think you need to have about you enough. And like, they're not checking in.

Like, I think you need to have someone who's like, cool, like I'm not going to match a pattern and I'm going to step out of my normality and ask you to do something. So that's a red. That's a red flag. Someone's not doing that. If someone is texting you regularly

and not inviting you to do something, get rid of them. Get rid of them. Bin it. Waste of space. Yes. Dead weight. They're wasting your time.

Right. So that's red. Yeah. What's like an amber flag? An amber flag is someone who doesn't know where to take you so like if someone is like uh what do you want to do and they're like indecisive and they have like executive dysfunction about romance it's like come on get on with it like i genuinely think like if you say hey we should go out sometime that person should follow up and be like listen do you want to see a play shall we go see see this open mic night? Or like, I want to- So the person who says it

is the person who makes the plans. Yeah, I mean, the person is me and I want to be with me. But like, it's, I think like someone

who doesn't know how to, how to volley that. It's not like, oh, cool, like you mentioned you wanted to do this. Like I found this

or like you, you live in North London, like why don't we course out? And it shows that they listened and they care and they did a little bit research. Yeah. So basically someone who doesn't dither and is assertive.

And I think another amber flag. Thank you so much for like translating. I think anyone who recommends doing something that is an immediate Google top result is not the one for me. Like if someone's like best wine bars in W1, it's like, no, sorry. If it's Google 1, 2 and 3, you're like, no, sorry. And if it's Google One, two and three, you're like, no, sorry about it. But what if it is also number one

and is great? No, it wouldn't be possible because that's not what subculture is. Okay, you're absolutely right. Yeah, I think like these are areas that get gentrified. Like if you go to Shoreditch on the weekend,

like no, you're not the one for me. You're like what they say, B&T people in New York. Yeah, exactly. I think like, I like people who like know what the beating heart of culture is and like not necessarily

that they need to be like discovering uniqueness like in its rawest form but I think like but just someone who goes off the beaten track yeah someone who's just like hey like I read this

or heard about that like you can tell a lot by someone's interest in culture yeah and like I think it's really important that we start challenging people

to like get involved in their own lives a bit more so we can enjoy them so basically google one two and three is not the one not the one for me like i don't want i don't want someone who opens up yelp to find a restaurant for me trip advisor no no way google on page 18 that could be something i mean 18 you know that's like the dark web you don't want to go there. But the drinks are great.

Don't get me wrong. I love a basic moment. Take me to be at one, one night. That's fun. But I don't want to be at first date. You want to go there every day. Not first date. I've had great nights at vodka revs.

Yeah. Those trashy places. And I've learned to appreciate it. I came from Canada. So I first of all moved to this country and was just like, everyone's drinking. Everyone's drinking all the time. Yeah, we drink all the time. Is that one of the biggest differences you found between Canada and the UK? Yeah, so some of the

things I noticed when I moved here was that the water tasted really hard. Okay. Because the water in Canada is incredible. I would be none the wiser. Yeah, sound off in the comments below if water has a flavour. And then also, I genuinely was so confused because I didn't know where the mountains were. So in Canada, you could always see the Rocky Mountains and you know that's north.

So when I got here and I was like, there's just loads of buildings. I just started to hide because I thought Jack the Ripper was around the corner. And so green flags? Green flags are people who are self-aware. I think people who are in therapy are incredible because that shows that they're working on themselves. I think green flags are people who have a similar way of connecting with you. So like if, if you need to get a text message in the morning and they text you, that's beautiful. If someone is attentive in a way that affirms your love languages or your dating languages,

I think stick it out. Like, I don't think we need to like just date people because we find them attractive. I think you need to date someone because they really complement your lifestyle. That's a green flag for me. My green flags are your green flags. My red flag, your red flag isn't my red flag. Okay, what's your red flag? The texting isn't, I don't mind. But I think that's just straight dating and queer dating.

But also you're like really deflective. Like you like you're like once people are like oh like cool I don't care if you don't text me because I'm busy leading a double life yeah yeah I'm not that poppy today I can't I'll deal with you later yeah exactly but that's your masculine energy I love it uh I think all the things that you've mentioned as green flags, though, are absolutely mine. I have an orange book. It's this big. And I write all the qualities that are non-negotiable for me. That's a big book.

No, it's tiny. Oh, sorry. I thought it was thick. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no, no. I'm not writing a manuscript. I'm more like a little black book. I don't know.

After my ex-partner, I was like, you kind of lose your sense of identity because so much of your identity is in your partner. become a we instead of an I and all this other news and blah blah blah he's got to be fucking secure as fuck yeah okay because if he's with me if anyone is with me they need to raise me they need to let me fly they need to let me be free if anyone is intimidated or scared or jealous or wants to put me in a box or is like being with me and the the idea of me are two different things. So you have to like the idea of being with me, but like being self-aware, being able to challenge themselves, being able to be vulnerable, being able to be honest and in touch with their emotions. Like they're big asks. And I think straight men, they're not all straight

men, but they're not there yet. They have a lot of work to do. That's all the time we have. Should we do the same time next week? I agree with you. I do hear what you're saying, but my therapist actually said to me the other week that some of the things that we allow ourselves to put up with are not those people being bad people, it's that they amplify parts of ourselves that we don't like. And so you can be with someone who makes you feel like a narcissist

or makes you feel controlling or makes you feel insecure, but it's not actually them doing it to you. It's just a reflection of yourself back at you. And so I think a secure relationship is someone who just it's effortless. It just feels really calm. And easy. Yeah, you can make a dad joke and then you both laugh and then you feel a bit silly, but you don't feel bad and you don't feel insecure. Like my sister actually said this to me once.

She said the person you should be with or date is someone who doesn't make you feel butterflies and doesn't make you feel nervous. They make you feel really calm. I do want a bit of butterflies though. Yeah, of course. I have had so much fun having you on Big Boy Energy. I don't know, we went deep.

Yeah, we went deep. Deep and slow. Hard, rough, fun. All those things. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on Big Boy Energy. Honestly, I've had. We went really deep. Deep and slow. Hard, rough, fun. All those things. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on Big Boy Energy. I've had such a fucking wicked time and you are a vision. It's been a pleasure.

I've been such a big fan of the show and I'm so glad that I get to be here. And it's such a wildly great group of people who you have lined up. And yeah, I just like props to you mamas. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts, opinions or want to share what Big Boy Energy means to you, WhatsApp me on 07968100822. Love a boy.

Bye. Big Boy Energy.