Brown Girls Do It Too - Race Traitors and Sharan Dhaliwal

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Poppy & Rubina have both dated men outside of their race and have been called race traitors because of it. They discuss this with Burnt Roti magazine editor, Sharan Dhaliwal, who has dealt with it herself.Both Poppy and Rubina talk of making sacrifices in their culture in order to continue dating non Asian guys. Similarly, our guest Sharan, was made explicitly aware, growing up, that she should be only dating within her race, and on top of that she had the added pressure of being bi. We hear how she has only recently come out to her family and how her mother in particular dealt with the news.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Brown Girls Do It Too. Yeah. From the BBC Asian Network. I'm Poppy, and I hate it when people ask me to explain terrorism to them. I mean, do I look like a terrorist? I'm doing a sex podcast. I'm Robina, and I really hate it when people use the word diverse when describing people who just aren't white.

And this is season two of Brown Girls Do It Too, available on BBC Sounds. If you are fascinated by Asian women being given a platform to speak candidly, then this is just the right podcast for you. You can hear past episodes of Brown Girls Do It Too on BBC Sounds. A heads up, we have potty mouths, especially Poppy. And the way we talk about sex isn't sugarcoated. If you think this might offend you or the ears of anyone around you, then there are many other podcasts on BBC Sounds. But if your ears are tingling in anticipation, hold tight, it's about to get real. In today's episode, we talk about dating outside your race. That's right, whether you're black, brown or blue, we are talking about sleeping with the enemy. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. Don't troll me. I'm joking.

We'll be talking to Sharon Dallywell, creator of the incredible Burnt Rating Mag, making waves across the internet. We'll be talking to her about dating outside your race. She's dated a lot of different people, so she'll definitely have something to say about that. And she's only just recently come out as bi to her family. So we'll talk about that too.

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and download browngirlsdoit2. And if you think we are a couple of bear shrooms, then don't subscribe to us at all. Just don't do it. It's really that simple. Just step aside. Just tap out. Walk away. Walk away. Don't subscribe. Take the headphones off.

And no one is asking you to stay. Right. So, Robina, let's not beat around the bush. We've both dated white mandems. White guys. White guys. White chicks.

So, you know, let's not shy away from what I think both of us have been called race traitors. Are you a race traitor? Are you a self-hating race traitor? I am pointing. Are you a race traitor, Robina? I don't even know why dating someone within your race would make you a race loyalist. Like, I don't know what the opposite is. Like, I love my culture. I love my community. I love the colour of my skin. I love the food that we eat, the music that we listen to.

I love Bollywood films. I love all the things that represent my culture. But that doesn't necessarily mean I want to seek that out in a partner. Why do you think some people see us as race traitors? Because we're not going out with Asian men. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a lot of the backlash that we've had from doing this podcast is people saying that we don't understand what it's like to be Asian. Have you ever had that phrase, coconut? Of course.

I think I invented it. I didn't. I so didn't invent it. But I feel like that, you know, bounty. Oh, we would be called a bounty for sure. I don't even know what that means. It's like I eat shutki. If you eat shutki, do you know what shutki is?

I eat that shit with my hands. It's like the stinkiest curry you will ever have in your life. When my mum cooks shutki, she has to hide all the coats. She has to lock them away because they stink. It's like... Producer Rehan, you've had shutki, haven't you? It's like this stinky curry made of dried fish. It is hardcore.

And it's like, I mean, not that that makes me any Bengali, but I love our culture. I love being Asian. I love that we look after each other. I love that we look after our parents. I love that we have incredible food. There are bits about my culture, large parts of my culture that I love.

So I think just because we date outside of our race doesn't make us race traitors or anything but I've always liked the other I've all in relationships and in friends I've always loved making friends uh um with people from different cultures different backgrounds all walks of life I've always has always been my mantra like I've never ever been in a friendship group where everyone looks like me or talks like me ever. It's just something that's said oh yeah he's with he's with a white person oh you know he's white yeah yeah he's from Manchester like it would be like a thing and I just I was always like really fascinated by that but I think like because I had some older cousins who uh married outside of our particular community it definitely paved the way for it to be much easier for me that's incredible so. So my generation of cousins, like my cousins,

no one's married outside of their race. So they aren't race traitors. I think me, I think I'm the first one. Oh my God. You're always, you know, you're carving a new path, Poppy. Trailblazer. I tell my sisters I'm Malala Yousaf. The Malala of the family. I'm really not knocking Malala, I love her. I'm not comparing myself to her. This is a joke. But yeah, it really astounds me that my cousins, all of them have married Bengali. I so remember a cousin who married a white guy and then it broke up, right?

And then the family discussion was like, well, of course, that is what happens when you marry outside of your race. Which is a preposterous thing to say divorce doesn't happen in our community but it happens over there yeah but actually i've got loads of uncles and aunts who are divorced now so like they've married within the community and then ended up divorcing like it basically doesn't matter who you marry whether it's white black blue anyone who you have a relationship with could end in divorce the world is cruel the world cruel. But also I think one of the things I really hate about our culture

is the colourism and the sort of internal racism that exists, not just towards black people, but, you know, if I brought a Hindu home, I mean, what is that? It's not really racist. It's like xenophobia, whatever it is. It's like the kind of innate ingrained prejudice you have.

Even, they have to be Sunni. They couldn't even be Shia. Yeah. So you've got so many different levels that you've got to wade through. It's like, oh no, he's not allowed. It's like a pathway of man. Yes, take Shia.

Yes, take Bengali. Yes, take village. But then after you do the filter down of who that person is, you are just there looking opposite your cousin. And you're like, all right, then they're done that. You're the only one that ticked all the boxes.

Do you think we should shag? Probably not. No. I also think there's another problem that we should just talk about now is that I think men, I mean, I shouldn't speak for you, but certainly for me,

I think Asian men find me way too gobshitey. I don't pass the mother-in-law test. I just don't. I mean, that's why my mum got me married to a cousin because she's like, your mother-in-law is going to just don't. I mean, that's why my mum got me married to a cousin because she's like, your mother-in-law's going to say make tea and be like, there's a fucking kitchen. I often find that Asian men

aren't massively attracted to me. It's because you're taller than them. Because I am mostly taller than her. Because every child of an Asian man is 5'4". Hey, I'm 5'11", okay? And you know, I'm okay with dating shorter guys. It's like, I don't know, that's their problem if it is.

I just feel like they're not attracted to me because of potentially being a bit of a loud ass, like you said. But there are some hot Asian guys out there. Oh, hundreds. So many fitties. I remember, so you need to remember the Bengali height gene pool is very, very small,

as in very short. Yeah. I mean, look at producer Rehan. I'm joking. Yeah, he is tiny. Every time I see him, I'm like, whoa, you have shrunk. Bruv.

We love producer Ayaan. Shout out to producer Ayaan. But I'm tall-ish for a Bengali girl. And I remember I'd go to my daddy's house and constantly I'd be told, you're never going to find your man. Never going to find your man. You're too tall.

And in my head, I'd be like, thank God. Because we're the Asian. And I think it's just because seeing the Asian men in my family, like the double standards, seeing what they were allowed to do, what I wasn't allowed to do. And I just could see the restrictions that my aunties and my mum had

by their husbands. I thought, I don't want that life. I feel exactly the same. But there are things about that life that I have sacrificed to make these choices. So I've watched my cousins get married to other Asian men

in these kind of marriage ceremonies that are beautiful and get the blessings from both sides and have this acceptance and this two families coming together thing. I'll never really have that. I'll never be able to go to the mosque with my partner, which is something I did every Friday as a kid and Saturday school,

or taking my kid to Saturday school and taking them to the mosque because it's a choice you make. You sacrifice some other stuff in order for your independence. Totally. I mean, I tried to trick my partner into a Nikah. I was like, no, no, no, it's not, it's not, it's like Islamic, it's like an Islamic ritual, but like, no, don't worry about it. Like you can still be atheist. You just say these three things. Oh no, no, no, you're fine. Just say the words. Just say that once. I actually say it three times.

And then it's fine. And then he Googled it and he's like, this is an actual proper Islamic ritual. This is how your parents got married. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's fine. It's fine, don't worry about it. So that didn't work. But there is a massive part of me that I don't know if he knows really, maybe he does, that is sad to let go of those parts of our culture.

Like my mum doesn't speak any English and it's going to be difficult slash nigh on impossible for her to speak to my partner because she just doesn't speak the language. And all that kind of camaraderie that you get and the rituals, the traditions, all of that stuff that I love. Yeah. You just you just don't have that and also like the the language that you so when I had my stint of an Asian boyfriend who obviously my mum because like he was in the community and the first thing he did was call my mum auntie cute my partner would never call my mum auntie he'd be like that's just weird why would I call her that like even getting my partner to think about calling my mum mum yeah you'd be like she's not my mum and she's your mum it is all those things we just

have that we have that terminology we have that familiarity with each other and and i will miss that and i will think about all of the things that are part of that and also just like food and part being part of that culture and sharing things i mean you can still have all that to be honest my my favorite story is my my older cousin married a white guy and at the wedding um he came to do a speech and similar her parents don't speak english okay they speak cutchy which is a kind of an unwritten language which is totally useless to know because you can't get a gcse in it so it's been useless but it's it's the family it's my mother tongue it's my my countryman's language anyway he stood up at his wedding and he did a speech in cutchy oh my god my God, my heart is melting. And it was just like, he had the worst accent ever.

But every little bit of him doing it, it just like, everyone was in tears after that. Because actually like loads of amazing cultural things can be transcended if you just try to connect with each other about race. And I think that stuff's beautiful. So far, I'm teaching my partner swear words. He's got a really good combination of swear words down.

And I said said don't you dare say any of this to my mum because it's all very pubic care related actually interesting but yeah I I do I think that's the compromise we make there's a sacrifice it's almost like giving up parts of our culture the warm fun gooey bits the mushy bits that you love and that's why it's really upsetting if somebody was to call us race traitors or self hating it's like it's so much more somebody was to call us race traitors or self-hating. It's like, it's so much more complicated than you think. I should caveat this by saying that my parents have technically met my partner.

But have you seen that film, The Wedding Singer? Yeah. Where he exchanges piano lessons for meatballs. So they've met him as Poppy's friend who gives Poppy's younger brother GCSE science lessons in exchange for curry. Wow. So they've met him as like Poppy's best friend. Right. And all my friends are like, surely they know.

I'm like, they're obviously in denial. My mother knows. Mums always know. They've got a sixth sense for these things. But they, you know, I think there's going to be a massive part of them that's going to be really sad to find out he's not an Asian guy. You know know I think that's part and parcel sometimes of not dating in your race like parents do get sad I think you're right my mum has like she the language that she uses is just so telling and and even though I you

know I love her and we don't have any real arguments or issues about this because she's very accepting is the word that she uses you know I've come to terms with with your choices or you know I've accepted everything I don't want I don't want her to accept I want to be embraced yeah I want to be celebrated I want that you know my relationship like any other Asian woman having a relationship with whoever she wants should be celebrated although it's not you're either seen as a disappointment to your family or a race traitor yeah or like there's something wrong with you like someone from the community is not going to want you so you should go you had to look outside of it yeah god i actually do think that's true though in my case no one from the asian community

is going to want me or you're damaged goods and you can't be controlled there you go and so you've had to go outside the internal gene pool yeah because everybody knows you're already divorced yeah why would anyone want to be with you? I would, so this is actually quite sad. I'm one of six. My sister, the sister after me, stunningly beautiful, stunningly gorgeous, has darker skin. She would be called all sorts of names from the extended family.

Like that is how the kind of casual colorism, casual racism that exists in the kind of Bangladeshi community was just so, it was like open. And it's only, I've always, I wish I'd called my mum and my dad out in a much more measured way. I'd just sort of shout at them because I was so angry. I was like, how could you? Like, it was just, it was so disgusting and I was so embarrassed and so appalled by it.

Like, do you remember back in the day when the photos would go around of the bride? The first thing that the uncles would comment on is how fair she was. Fair and lovely. Fair and lovely. They wouldn't... Got on is like features. You know, does she have beautiful eyes? They'd never comment on the features.

They'd comment on her skin colour first. That's how deeply ingrained it was and I think and also what the kind of comeback would be like you know in Islam we're all equal you know you I'd have to throw back the religion in their face but it was it was so deep-rooted and it's it had it's taken I mean look at it now it's not like we've got any better yeah but I think it's going to take years more of sort of unlearning and also dating outside of your race. Bringing home a black man, bringing home a white guy, bringing home like a Chinese guy.

Yeah. I think that will kind of, that doesn't necessarily make it better. I'm not saying that's a fix that fixes things, but surely it's a step in a direction. And you know what? It's not being afraid to have that conversation about race. Because I think a lot of us are like, oh, it's fine. I've got this uncle.

He's a bit racist, you know, whatever and and kind of just letting them get away with it it's like you have to call people out even if you find it uncomfortable if you hear racism and it's your mate's grandmother yeah you still need to just say something because your mate's grandmother will want to change will want to see the value in what you're saying um we had this really good rhyme growing up when my mum had this really good rhyme growing up that was like uh joddery paddery cardery and it's like something she would say to me when i was a baby so joddery is like fatty what's fine you're a baby bit fat paddery is like farty like you know you're a baby again and then the last one is cardery which is like darky right and this is like her sweet little rhyme that she would say to me growing up.

And it was just like so normal. That was like normalized. I mean, you know, you can be a bit fat and fatty, but. Someone Sikh said to me, they will not be named. Her auntie said to her, no BMWs. Oh. No blacks, no Muslims, no whites. Wow.

Yeah. And I was just like, not surprised because... Who's left? Well, clearly Sikh men only. Sikh men only need apply. But yeah, that was the vibe. When I was growing up, I was definitely heavily implied. You will not date...

It would have to be Bangladeshi. Bangladeshi, village vibes. Same, you know, i don't think we're not as uh we don't operate on a caste system as much but it was all about your ends it's all about your postcode but your postcode back home not your postcode here where are they from it was all about your bangladeshi postcode um because it meant same tribe same community same culture blah blah blah blah so that is how small and narrow it was. Yeah. You had no choice. It's kind of weird when I think about my parents being from the exact same community.

So when you think about how many like millions of people inhabit this planet and they're both like, you know, traveled, educated people. And, you know, I would say they're both broad thinkers. And they ended up with somebody like literally from the same community. They all knew the same people, you know. I'm sure our guest today will have an opinion on being told to marry from within your own community. Or she'll probably tell you to do one. It's Sharon Dhaliwal. She is a writer, director of Middlesex Pride

and the creator of the amazing Burnt Roti. I really think you guys should check it out. It's an online zine celebrating South Asian talent. She's just brilliant. And as you'll hear, Sharon's done a lot of dating. She's only just recently come out to her family's bi. Her mum didn't take it too well. So we'll talk to her about that too.

She's up straight after this. What's going through your mind right now? What have your experiences been like? One Extra Talks is about to get brave. Yes, that's right, Richie Brave. And I'm taking the reins for the show where we delve into the hot topics that matter to young black people in the UK. What does the future look like? Whatever the issues on your mind, Hi, Sharon.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm obviously a huge fan of Bernd Rorty and I love that you say Rorty instead of R. And you've made me unlearn the fact that I'm saying it wrong. So thank you so much for coming on the show. What you have done for South Asian talent and British South Asians, especially on the internet has been huge. I think you've had a real effect on me. So yeah, we're really grateful that you found the time to come on our sex podcast. Oh, thank you. that was lovely um yeah like uh on the roti note yeah it took me a while because i would say burnt roti at the start and i think it

was because i just i was like i need to appeal to as many people as possible yeah and now i'm just like screw everyone like you know why did you choose to have a burnt roti as your uh as the name of your magazine the reason behind burnt roti is actually um because the magazine doesn't really have anything to do with food uh which is quite confusing for a few people that come along uh find it the first time i think it's a cookbook yeah they think it's like to do with food and i'm like actually no um but the reason i came up with it is because when i was young uh like most south asian young women know, you're kind of taught how to cook at a young age, you know, and one of the big ones is how to make the perfect round

roti. And my mom used to try it all the time. Oh my god, she would stand in front of the tawa with me and just be like, Okay, Sharon, we can do this, we can make the perfect round roti. And I didn't want to ever make the perfect round rooty because that equated to being good enough to be married off to a guy. And even at that young age, I guess I kind of knew that. And so I think it was my first act of rebellion. And I would just always burn the rooty. And my mom would just stand there just being like, this girl cannot cook rooties. Like, what am I going to do with her rooties like what am I gonna do with her like how am I gonna get her married and I was like oh no guess I can't get married now and so like eventually mom was just like all right go sit with your brother I'll make rooties all the

time now so when I came up with the magazine I was like thinking of like you know those kind of acts of rebellion I had during my process of unlearning and because that's what the magazine's really about and it just fit perfectly it just made sense and so I just went ahead with burnt roti never looked back since I totally feel that rebellious attitude because I think that's something that's really driven Poppy and I with this podcast especially oh absolutely yeah I can see that you're kind of burning your rotis and in a completely different way but yeah and flopping them about for everyone to see yeah absolutely burnt roti burnt rice burnt burnt rice, burnt the whole curry, burnt the samosas.

Burnt the whole kitchen. Burnt the whole kitchen. Burnt the house down. There is no kitchen. So what we were talking about before we had you on the show, we were talking a lot about dating outside our race

and how kind of our communities raised us to feel like our only true partners in life should be the ones that our parents recommend or go to our mosque true partners in life should be the ones that our parents recommend or go to our mosque or, you know, have the same, mainly the same skin color, perhaps the same religion as us. Did you ever feel that kind of sense of responsibility really

growing up to kind of find a partner that looked a bit like you? Yeah, I don't think it was a feeling. It was pretty much just told to me. So I guess when you, when I got to a certain age, there was the whole kind of molding me to be a good enough woman to get married off. But like, it was molding me to be a good enough woman for this random guy I've never met before who lives in India and is probably a doctor. And I never really understood that because it wasn't anything to do with attraction. It was a lot to do with, uh, grating something out of me that wasn't me. And I think that's what I kind of found myself rebelling against more than anything. And I have like dated a lot of races. Um, and I think I date

less South Asian people. I don't want to say that, like, you know, I don't like dating South Asian people because that's a horrific thing to say, but there was something ingrained in me. And I think that was because they told me that I have to date a certain person. Like genuinely, I had a conversation that was like, oh, Sharon, you can marry who you want as long as they're not. There was a list. There was like, oh my God. Let's talk about the list. Cause I know what list you're referring to. You're talking about BMWs, aren't you? Yeah what did they stand for i mean it was mostly black and muslim but white people were more acceptable it was this really weird thing where like it's almost like a tug of war in one side they're like don't be too gaudy um know like your language know

how to cook roti and then the same hand they're like yeah but also be a bit white as well like you know be a bit subservient to whiteness and so they were very accepting uh after a while that I found them more accepting of white partners than they would of anyone else whenever I've gone out with a white guy I get like the side eye creator looks from my own brethren and I don't know if you've ever felt that vibe amongst your own peeps. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. Like, you know what was actually interesting? Um, my ex, uh, is a white woman. And before I actually started dating her properly, one of my friends said to me, you're really into white women, aren't you? And I was like, what? I was like, what, why did you just

say that? And then she was like, well, the last two crushes you had before her were two white women. And I was like, does that mean that I fancy just white women? Like, is that now a pattern? Like, I was just so confused. But there was a lot of judgment with that comment. Was she brown? Was she Asian, your friend?

Yeah, she was Asian. Yeah, Asian. Yeah, yeah. But there have been a lot of Asian people that have made comments to me. Not just side eyes, not like full-on comments. I talk a lot about how the porn I watch

or the stuff that I fantasize about is often white people having sex, white bodies, white breasts, white dick, whatever. Yeah. And I think that sometimes the partner that you choose or the sexual partner that you choose or the sexual partner

that you choose is actually a projection of how you feel about the color of your own skin and sometimes that troubles me and I'm like oh god who am I oh no absolutely I think that's definitely a thing and that's a again back to the conversation of unlearning like you know unlearning that you know there's nothing actually wrong with us we are kind of like we are beautiful and there is a standard of beauty that we all have to like we all find ourselves having to adhere to um and it is a very westernized kind of like concept of it but that doesn't mean that we're not beautiful but we have to go through this process of unlearning that but that comes with trauma so that's hard to do um so yeah there will be projections 100%

but one thing we can't do is sit there and beat ourselves up over the fact that we are projecting over trauma that's been put onto us from a society that we're not allowed to fit into. We should be able to just sit there and be like, look, this isn't actually our fault. This is like the world's fault. I just pointed at my window,

there was someone walking past. It's your fault. You are the reason why I'm like this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was wondering if you add, you take any of your Asian-ness into the bedroom with you

as a projection onto your partner because you might play it up a bit. Like what? Start singing Bollywood songs during sex. I've never done that, but now I'm like maybe I should now put it up the whole I mean like do you think you perform anything that you think what an Asian woman should be like in the bedroom because I was saying that I think I try really hard to be really good and

really giving in bed and really into it because I think that partners would think I'm an Asian woman so I wouldn't be that interested in sex oh interesting okay I'm very much just lying down and just be like just do what you do and then maybe I'll treat you I'm such a lazy lay I'm like yeah and then I fall asleep if you're lucky and I've had that much curry and I can move you you might get a little something something. Yeah, exactly. No, I find that quite interesting. I don't think I really have that. You know what?

Actually, I wanted to say earlier, which kind of fits in now, is I think a lot of people and the reason that like maybe a lot of South Asian men don't really kind of ask me out is because they see me as a sexual object. They don't see me as a possible partner. And that's because I don't fit into the kind of mold, as you were saying before, as like, you know, what an Indian woman should be as a wife or whatever. So I think a lot of them see me as just like a sex object a lot of the time. And in a lot of South Asian, again, generalizing a lot of South Asian men's eyes, a lot of the time and in a lot of south asian again generalizing a lot of south asian men's eyes a lot of indian women need to be submissive i guess and i'm not really uh submissive

so i guess i guess there's no connection there with us like sexually but i don't i don't feel like i bring any kind of asian-ness to to a act. I wouldn't know how to. Again, unless I sing Bollywood, I'm actually going to try that next time, you know. So you said something really interesting about having slept with, you know, lots of different races. And I can totally kind of say that I've done the same thing. And I probably did it in a bit of a kind of tacky tick box way where I was like, I've actually now slept with one person from every continent. Like how many people do you think that you, uh, you would say that you slept with across your lifetime so far? Across my lifetime? Um, I think it's been over a hundred, but just

barely over a hundred, like maybe 101 and something. Um, but I'm still saying over a hundred. I did go through like quite a lot of stages of just you know sleeping with anyone that was around uh and was willing at the time and I think a lot of it had to do with exploring my sexuality as well um because I didn't actually come out as bisexual until about three years ago and so there was a lot of kind of I guess when I was younger my I, I guess, early 20s were, I don't know, I hate the word experimenting, but it was kind of just like playing around with women. And then only when I came out did I actually experience like, you know, sex with women properly. And so I think my numbers are kind of added up because of things like that. Yeah, I'm quite proud of my numbers.

I'm proud of your numbers. Yeah, I was like... I want to tick that 100 to 200 box, goddammit. Yeah, exactly. Now I can tick that. I'm happy. I wish I'd slept with 100 people. I've actually only slept with about 18. And that's because I've had quite a few long-term partners

that really slow the going down, you know. I'm really super envious of your innings, actually. My band is about 20 to 30. It probably would have been higher, but, you know, I'm hooked up with Mandan, didn't I? Well, that's the thing. Like, I was in, like, long-term relationships, but it was university that just, I let loose.

I racked up my numbers at university, essentially. Yeah, I racked up my numbers after my divorce. I was like, shag everything divorce i was like shag everything yeah literally shag everything yeah it's so funny with numbers though because you have like it's you have these intense short periods of many like i once had in three days three partners but that's a lot right i wouldn't say that's a lot i'd say that's great perfect my finest moment is shagging three people in 24 hours oh wow oh you beat me 124 oh my god oh yeah that's amazing I'm actually I'm actually jealous of you like my numbers mean nothing that's amazing that day I felt like Mick fucking Jagger honestly

I was like I don't give a I had a toothbrush and I had one pair of knickers and that's it. I remember a friend telling a friend who told me that this particular friend who was a guy was saying to her really proudly that he'd got on a blowjob from one girl and then didn't wash and then got on a blowjob from another girl. And he was quite proud and bragging of that. And I remember thinking at the time, I'm going to do one better than that. I just, I just think men have this laissez-faire, like casual license to talk about sex in that manner. Whereas a girl, I mean, we get trolled for doing this podcast. Oh, I can imagine. Anyway, all the time. So these sorts of comments, I mean, they're not going to fly very well. But I mean, I couldn't give a shit.

It's really interesting. But like, I judge him him whereas I wouldn't judge you from your story but not really judge but like I would just be like oh dickhead I know exactly what you mean and actually at the time I was like dickhead and then later on I was like I'm gonna do what that guy did but worse but yeah no it's it we do we do judge because men men have the license don't they they're they're seen as players the fuck boys it's okay whereas the moment a woman does it it's it's seen as a very derogatory thing but it's just another way for i guess men to well the society to control women through sex and shaming them through sex oh absolutely it's all about policing us isn't it just make sure our numbers are low make sure that we know they want us just to be for them if we've been for other people then you know we're ruined goods what was it like

talking about sort of sex and your sexuality with your family did that did you have those conversations yeah kind of uh so in the sense that um I actually avoided that conversation but I avoided that conversation with everyone so what I did is I came out in an article in my magazine I didn't actually like speak to people I just published the article and then like hid in my room for a while and then I guess I just waited for my parents to read it uh I don't know why I assumed my mum would read my magazine she doesn't ever read it um but she has a lot of spies so a couple of days later after I'd come out like I spoke to dad dad's chill like I've spent the last few years taking him to pubs and like speaking to him about like

gender and identity and sexuality and race and stuff and now he's like woke or whatever um it's so nice um to the point where like when I came out he literally quoted me back at me and was just like Sharon's sexuality is fluid I was like screw you that's my I said that to you like amazing that's so cool yeah like he doesn't care he really doesn't care it was mum that was the one that I was like nervous about and a few days later I got a phone call from mum and And I was like, Oh, God, okay, prepare yourself, Sharon, it's happening. You're gonna have the phone call, it's gonna be awful. And she started the phone call just talking about my nephew. And I was just like, Okay, this is relaxed. And then suddenly it comes in. So one of my friends told me something on your website. and I was like okay here it comes here it comes she's like something

about gay goo it that push it that gay goo and I was like what because I don't know I I like to like be self-destructive I guess I just kind of went explain yourself and I got her to say to me that someone has said that they looked at my website and there's an article there that says that I'm gay. And so I just went, oh, right. Yeah. I guess I tried to explain bisexuality to her and I kind of just went, yeah, kind of. And I just tried my best to like make her try and understand it and I think from my struggle of wanting her to understand and accept the idea of bisexuality meant that I explained it really

really badly and she ended up saying well you sound confused uh let me know when you figured it out and all that did was create more trauma within the process of coming out interesting but what did happen is she did like go through processes of cutting me out, letting me back in. When I got with my ex, she completely cut me out for a while. She found a photo of me and her kissing on Instagram and put it in the family WhatsApp group with what is this kind of thing. So, and then, and then one day on my birthday last year,

she sent me a big basket of like fruit and cheese and then one day on my birthday last year she sent me um a big basket of like fruit and cheese and all this stuff like she's never sent anything like that but with a note and the note was like I'm really sorry and I accept you for who you are yeah and I was like oh damn yeah yeah um it was amazing what brought that change well what had happened is we hadn't spoken in a while. COVID was happening. People were scared. I think she'd gotten to the stage where she was like, I need to reconnect with everyone in my life in case something happens.

I guess like it would be interesting to hear what you, how you kind of came to the idea of being bisexual, how you came to that kind of realization for yourself. I think I came to that realization in a really strange way, in the sense that I, but I kind of just went, I fancy like these people. And it's not just men, you know, like I would want, I remember when I remember when I watched Bram Stoker's Dracula. With Keanu Reeves. Yeah. With the worst english accent ever

so like i fancied him but like the scene with the three vampire women i i literally lost my mind i lost my mind a bit um and i had to i had to take a moment i had to pause it and take a moment and just be like what is happening and i was very aware of the fact that I wanted not just to be with Keanu Reeves. I wanted to be with these women as well. But I don't think I realized at the time that no one else around me did. Like it wasn't a common thing. I think I just assumed that it was okay to feel like that. And then people just got like women just got with men.

But everyone feels like that. Right. And then I think eventually like, uh, women just got with men, but everyone feels like that. Right. And, and then I think eventually like on my journey of discovery, um, there was a lot of moments I had with women as well, where they also were going through a journey. And I think that we kind of both helped each other kind of figure things out about ourselves. But like, you know, sleepovers weren't sleepovers. They were like, you know, a lot more sexual than, they were my mum's worst nightmare, essentially. Sian, thank you so much for your input there. I think it's been, it's been one of my favourite Brown Girls Do It Too episodes.

I'm really, really glad and happy that we got you on as one of your mega fans. Yeah, you were really open and honest, honestly. Thank you so much for coming on and being so candid. You better not be saying this to every guest. So before we let you go and enjoy the rest of your wonderful Saturday, we normally play a game with our guests,

but it's got a bit of a kind of problematic title situation. So hopefully you can help us come to a kind of better title. Poppy, what's the title of this game? Well, because of censoring and stuff, it's called the Quickfire F game. But Rubina has a really shit name for it. Rubina, do you want to tell Sharon what it is quickly? Well, it's more like a kind of intro into a segment name, which is like, and now for the next, how you like sex? We'll play the game with you and then you could give us a suggestion.

All right. So I'll go first. Right. We'll give you two options. You can go both. You can go one or the other. You can go off script. You can go rogue.

You can provide a comment. You do you, babes. All right. Okay. Okay. Doggy or missionary? Doggy. Pubes or no pubes?

Pubes. Lights on or lights off? Both, depending who the partner is. Oh, interesting. Spit or swallow? Swallow. Brave. That's good.

I've got an issue with swallowing. I can never quite do it right. So good for you. Really? I can't do it. I just find spitting messy. You've got to get a cup of water by the side of the bed. No, no, no.

Don't tell her the story about the cup of water. Oh, my God. Porn or no porn? Porn. Lube it up or natural juices? Natural juices every time. I've never needed lube. I'm naturally juicy, I guess.

Hand job or foot job? Hand job, just because coordination thing. That's good. I think I know the answer to the next one, but I'm going to ask anyway. Give head or get head? Get head. Have we ever had anyone on Prank Girls Do It Too

that has said give head? We haven't actually, have we? I don't think so. There's one last one. A quickie in the club toilet or quickie in a park? Oh, I like, oh, I've done both and I like both. Oh, all right.

You do one after the other, Probs. Yeah, so club and then walk back home. Nice. Yeah, yeah,

both. What a great day. That's what you should go and do for the rest of the day. Yeah, fuck it, let's do that. Oh,

come on, COVID, I can't do any of that. true. And that's it. That is the end of our day. Yay. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We have like, learned so much and it's been so is the end of our game yay thank you so much

for coming on the show we have like learnt so much and it's been so fun so really appreciate you taking the time to be a part of Brown Girls Do It

yes thank you oh no it's been amazing thank you so much and thank you so much for doing this as well yeah thanks for Bert Rorty it's amazing

keep up the good work Rorty you went a bit English there I was just about to say Rorty get the R in make it a bit English there. I was just about to say. Roti. Get the R in, make it a bit Arab, like roti. Yeah, that was really good.

I know, I was enjoying that myself. I was turning myself on. Brown girls do it too. So that was Sharon Dallywell. She was amazing, wasn't she? She was so honest. She was amazing, wasn't she? She was so honest. She was amazing. Open, smart.

And I think in today's chat, we did have, I think, quite ugly, awkward conversations about how internally kind of racist we are. Like, you know, dating outside our race, the fact that our extended community still have problems with Black people. We need to kind of talk about those things. I really admire Sharon's honesty

talking about sort of colorism and the internal racism that we have within our communities. I guess the main thing I've taken away is her references to experimenting and thinking that actually that is a really bad thing that we say when you're like experimenting with your sexuality, experimenting with different partners.

You're not experimenting. You're on a journey. You're on a journey of like self-discovery that we are all on a journey of self-discovery every day also I think we've both learned I mean this is not

something we've learned this is something that we know to be true is that white is still more acceptable in the racial hierarchy white is still more acceptable

yeah I want people to put down the fair and lovely and go and stand out in the sunshine go get a tan feel nice and dark and lovely and go and stand out in the sunshine. Go get a tan, feel nice and dark and look at yourself

and think you're beautiful. I also do want them to put a bit of Factor 30 on. A bit of sun cream, yeah, sorry actually. It's true, not encouraging people to burn.

Well, I think that's everything so thank you so much for listening. Obviously we would love for you to join in the conversation so use the hashtag BrownGirlsDoIt2.

You can email BrownGirlsDoIt2 at bbc.co.uk. You can also tweet at BBC Asian Network. conversation so use the hashtag brown girls do it too you can email brown girls do it too at bbc.co.uk you can also tweet at bbc asian network if you giggled along to the chat and maybe had some of those dark conversations with yourself please do subscribe and download brown girls do it too on the bbc sounds app or wherever you get your podcasts brown girls do it too i got a question for you what are you doing for yourself today? I'm Eve.

I'm a rapper, TV presenter, businesswoman, and now podcaster. Yep, that's right. Let's get inspired together in my brand new podcast, where we'll go on a journey as we learn new things and meet people with empowering stories as they share their wisdom and expertise as to how to get the most out of life. Trust me, you've got to hear this. Constantly evolving with me, Eve, only on BBC Sounds.