Brown Girls Do It Too - Second Class Citizens

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Poppy & Rubina speak to Raj Kaur from the Pink Ladoo project about growing up as daughters. How much of an impact does sexism still have on South Asian women? And is there a solution?They discuss double standards, the lack of male allies growing up, the Pink Ladoo project and Angela Saini's 'The Patriarchs'.Have a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail]

bbc sounds music radio podcasts little miss poppy more like little miss loudest person in the room and i'm slightly embarrassed by it little miss rabina more like little miss nothing is good enough and i hate myself for that confession little miss loudest person in the room and i'm slightly embarrassed by it uses a lot of strong language Well, Little Miss, nothing is good enough and I hate myself for that only discusses themes of an adult nature

If you don't like your podcast with a little extra peri-peri salt, well we can't help you But if you do come satiate your salty self and continue listening This is Brown Girls Do It Too A podcast about the sex lives of british asian women the fantasies the failures and every f word in between i'm rabina and my masculine energy looks like

lads lads lads lads lads lads lads i'm poppy and my masculine energy looks like... Were you intimidated by that? It sounds like I'm doing a poo, yeah. You sound like you're doing a poo. Cool. If you haven't guessed it already, today we're taking on the male species. And if patriarchy has monopolised sex, love and relationships.

I mean, if I was a man, I'd be like a really laddy. Lad, lad, lad, lad. I'd dive into lad culture from the 90s. I'd be Chris Moyles. I would be Chris Moyles. Oh my God, actually,ris moyles i would be chris moyles actually no sorry you i would be chris moyles i can't believe you would be you'd be the brand of our chris moyles oh my god that is not a compliment my instinct when someone says be a man yeah not

that anyone says that but if they're like mad up i'm like oh yeah i'm that guy i'm not like hello i'm ruben you know i'm like yeah yeah i'm like the lad'm not like hello i'm ruben you know i'm like yeah yeah i'm like the lad i'm like i'm grotesque oh absolutely i think i think you and i also work and the reason why i'm in season four is because we both have had this like quote-unquote laddie energy like we both can be quite masculine right we're not neither of us are girly girls i'm probably no no no no i mean we're not girly girls we wear sportswear yeah i put a blazer on today though yeah so and i brushed my teeth and showered so yeah exactly we're not like let me wait hours

we're not those girls actually and then that's a lot of those girls if it takes you four hours to do your lashes and hair and brows I didn't even know

people were doing eyebrows now by the way I just thought when you were saying oh we're doing I'm going to the brow bar I thought that was just like you're going to go get

something tweezed I didn't realise it was like a filler snippy snips scissors on the eyebrows never seen that before in my life. Oh, yeah, yeah. My lady does scissors.

And brow bar. So somebody I spoke to recently was going to get their brows done. Done, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, sorry, what? It's not an Asian Indian lady with her hand smelling of curry doing a... It didn't take five minutes and it wasn't a thread. It was like a... It was a half an hour to get your brows done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a whole bougie thing. I was like, I'm sorry. Before you'd go, you'd get a ticket. There'd be like a little Indian lady called Leema. I still do that. I still do that. Her hands stink of curry and she'd be like... Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. Before you'd go, you'd get a ticket. There'd be like a little Indian lady called Rima. I still do that. Her hands stink of curry and she'd be like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she'd be head bobbing like this. And I'd just be like crying, my eyes streaming and I'd be so upset and then she'd be like, should I do your mustache? Now, now there's a menu

for the brow bar. Anyway, we digress because like we usually do. But when you said laz, laz, laz, laz, laz, up until recently, whenever I'd put up a poster on, a poster?

Who am I? When I put up a photo on my Instagram wall, a poster, huh? That's what they call, the kids call it. Whenever I put up a poster on my Instagram, a poster, that's what the kids call it. Whenever I put up a photo on my grid wall, I'd be like, the lads. Because it was seen as, it was like a... Because you were mostly out drinking

and you wanted to be like, lads, I'm having a good time. Yeah, but you'd never say the girls. You'd be like, the lads. Because you're not having a good time. And you think boys get to have fun. Yes. And girls have to be not having any fun. Yeah.

So that's why my masculine energy is lads, lads, lads, lads, lads. And actually, maybe I should change it to ladies, ladies, ladies, ladies. It doesn't have the same banter. It doesn't. I could say lads, lads, lads, lads, lads. But really, I'm meaning ladies, ladies, ladies. A.K.A. ladies, ladies, ladies. See, even saying it is long.

You can't explain it. You can't explain it out. And it's like two syllables. It's like six syllables. Next time you post an Instagram with me on it, you're going to be like, lads, lads, lads, ladies. AKA ladies. But like, boys have such currency. They have such cool currency.

Like they've got a stash of cool coupons. And even when they're being dickheads, lazy, idiots, incompetent, mediocre, they still get to be great. Women, we make one fucking mistake and we're like, you know, black mark on our names. When you go into a bar and you see a hen do yeah and then you go to another bar and you see a stag do stag do is way better which bar would you want to hang out in the stag that's so interesting because i went

into i went into a bar at the weekend uh and there was it was a massive hen do and i was like oh no how annoying i won't be able to just drink my caipirinha with my friend. But this comes from a, the reason why I want to do stag, not hen, it sounds unfeminist, but it's not. I'm not going to explain to you. The dynamic with 18 women is very different to the dynamic with two women.

And the dynamic with 18 men is very different. Like the big groups of men and women, very different undertaking. I think it's a bit of me self-hating when I see that because I'm just like oh men

that would be a bit more easier to manage and women might be like sizing me up but that's ridiculous because they were a very lovely Hindu one of them touched my shoulder

and said I really love your dungarees where are they from no I just get my catarine here you know yeah fine I mean I am a

I am a woman's woman by the way oh yeah I'm a woman's woman I'm a woman's woman I will fucking fight tooth and nail for am a I am a woman's woman by the way oh yeah I'm a woman's woman I'm a woman's woman I will fucking fight tooth and nail for the woman I'm a woman's woman too I'm a woman's woman

there are some there are some women that are man's women but I'm a woman's woman but I'd still go for the stag because yeah sometimes on trains when you see teenagers

and there's like a big group of guys and teenagers and there's like one girl and you're like everyone hates you yeah in my head I'm like

you're not gonna have any friends everyone hates you or as in all her all the girl mates as in like everyone hates you in my head I'm like you're not going to have any friends everyone hates you or as in all the girl mates as in like she is there with this group of boys and they really rate her but I'm thinking everybody hates you

or the other girls don't but have you been on Hendoos? it's an interesting oh yeah I love Hendoos I mean I love Hendoos but it's like

imagine the pressures of being a woman and being skinny and being funny and adding value. It's a pressure cooker in a room over a weekend. Whereas men, I don't know, I need a man to slide into our DMs or email us to say this is not the case.

My friend went on a stand-in the other day where they all had to pay a certain amount to go to Amsterdam, right? They all paid a certain amount to go to Amsterdam. When they got there, they went to an Irish bar and my friend said, what's happening? Like, what's the next activity and they were like nothing we're in amsterdam not one activity was organized for the whole weekend this is for the men yeah yep so they're all they're all on a stag do in amsterdam and that already sounds like my great weekend i love it i

was like this is awful activities are forced to find you on your stag but also i would be drunk too soon and i wouldn't know what's happening yeah Yeah. Because you're like, shots, shots, shots. And I'd be like, after two shots, I'd be like, dude, I'm fucked. Two! Give yourself some credit.

You get drunk in like six drinks and then you're like, bye, I've got to get a drink. Yeah, it's true. You're so efficient with your drink. But like... So true. But I would have a stent.

I'd have men and women because not all of my best friends are women, you know? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's true. And what other scenarios apart from private girl school and SENDU, really in all female environments exactly or maybe when you're gonna go get your eyebrows threaded no there are some men in that clapping place i go to

getting their beards done what are the scenarios exactly nunnery yes a nunnery so all really unusual fucking you have to be quite niche mosque mosqueque. Mosque. Mosque is not niche. So all very high octane, pressure cooker environments. But do you know what? It's not normal to be around this many women. The female side of the mosque is actually quite a peaceful, lovely side. But you know, when you have a baby, I mean, when you have a young child and your partner's not Muslim and you go to the mosque, you have to keep the boy. I've got a little boy I've got to keep on the woman's side.

Oh, he's getting something, isn't he? Lucky little fella. He's like, that one's hot, oh he's getting something isn't he lucky little fella he's like that one's hot future right future right future right we're joined by author and founder

of the Pink Laddu Project Raj Kaur yay god that sounded really fake but it wasn't because we have been fangirling you since day dot,

since series one, since I had Instagram. I mean, I'm a massive Laddu fan too. So the whole thing combined really works for me. Laddu is the best Indian sweet. So good. I mean, what do you think about Gulab Jamun? I love them too, but only like if they're warm and not too soggy and with ice cream.

What about Rasmalai? Rasmalai? Rosmalai! Oh, that's low. Is that the pink? That's the pink one, isn't it? With the pistachio nuts. The rosmalai is kind of, it's white. No, no, it's a white one.

The white one's in the white sauce with the pistachios. Oh, my God. I just remember going to Ambala, which is like an Indian sweet shop for white people listening. Who am I kidding? No white person's listening. It's like an Indian sweet shop, and I remember going and getting I kidding? No white person's listening. It's like an Indian sweet shop and I remember going

and getting like, like getting a selection. One I didn't like, right? The diamond one that's silver. Oh yeah. I know. I always felt a bit worried. Like, is this real foil?

Should I do it? This is part of the thing. The one thing I don't trust, like I think Asian food, Indian food is amazing, but I don't really trust us with our sweet chocolate game. Have you seen the laddus

that are covered in chocolate? Don't do a chocolate laddu. We don't do it well at all. I actually couldn't tell you what a laddu is made out of. Is it ghee? It's sugar. Oh, man. And diabetes.

And despair. That's what it's made of. Those three queen key ingredients. I thought it was just the ball that was fried, but actually it's made up of thousands of micro fried balls glued together. So you get diabetes a thousand times quickly. I mean, I love it. It's like the sun, isn't it?

That's incredible. It's like all the flames coming together. Yeah, and it's like maximising the surface area of a fried object. Because we fry each tiny piece in there. That is so ancient. Only Asians would fry a million times over. But for the non-brown listeners and some of the Brown listeners who are not in the know, can you tell us a little bit about your Instagram page and why it's called Pink Laddu?

Because I'd met you, I think, a few months ago, and I didn't know anything about, I didn't know why your page was called Pink Laddu and why you did this custom, which you were about to tell us. Yeah, so within the South Asian community, there's a longstanding custom of distributing boxes of laddu to announce the birth of a boy. But there's no longstanding tradition to mark the birth of a girl. Girls' births generally go unannounced or, you know, ignored. And for me, I really don't think you can expect women to, you know, leave an abusive husband or demand a pay rise if you've been telling them from birth via customs like these that they are worth less than men. So through the Pink Ladu project, we encourage parents to give out Pink Ladu to announce the births of their daughters within their network. And the idea is that each

Pink Ladu kind of acts as a symbol of a protest against sexist customs and norms. And I kind of hope that each box would at least inspire a thought, if not a conversation in every household that receives one. Right. And that's the idea is to kind of encourage South Asians to critically engage with custom and tradition and, you know, step away from blind adherence and recognize that these, you know, sexist customs are like intergenerational propaganda spreading the idea that women are inferior to men. You're so fucking badass isn't she because i noticed it from seeing how my older brother was treated he was the only other sibling the only other thing i could like refer to as a child in our family and being like why are you getting everything better than me why do they love you more why do they like speak to you with more respect than they speak to me like why is it exactly like going through all of that i think that really jarred as a teenager and i was like

i felt like it was like an Asian thing to like treat women badly. And I think that can make you a little bit self-hatey when you're like, it's our culture. A thousand percent. You came to our show

and that bit where we talk about brown boy allies, that really got you because that's what you shared in your page. It literally like, it got me to my core. I couldn't stop thinking about it.

And it, like I was walking down the street the other day and it just popped into my head again. Like it lived there. Yeah, well I'm glad. I'm glad it lived it. And it, like, I was walking down the street the other day and it just popped into my head again. Like, it lived that retreat. Yeah, and it, well, I'm glad. I'm glad it lived well. When we did, so we did the show in Birmingham

and that bit of the show, people literally clapped. And just for the listeners who haven't seen our show, the bit of the show we're talking about is where we talk about growing up and not having Asian men allies in our lives who defended us, who came and helped us cook in the kitchen, or maybe protected us when we were getting told off about how we looked, how we spoke, anything like that. Or just men just generally looking over and saying, I don't think this is fair and I want to stand up for you.

Because at the time, when you think about your boy cousins and you, as in us, we all did the same things. We all went to school, we had the same amount of homework, but then we would come home and we'd have this entire section of house chores that we'd have to do we'd have to take care of our siblings with you know there's so much of that have you seen that um bbc comedy motherland and the woman in the main one of the characters talks about the the mother load there is the woman load right like just we have there's all these like implied things that we've got to do and i still think i'm quite chippy and i still think i'm quite angry about this because i'm one of six you had the you had an older brother i saw it with my cousins and we

were completely treated like second-class citizens and i know we love a second-class citizen reference because it's like an asian phrase to always talk about someone who's a second class citizen or a first class. It's so weird. It's so weird. No white British person is being like, oh, that's first class. No one. Actually, that's such a good point. Like now even you just said first class, I'm hearing like first class. First class.

Yeah. But it's, I mean, the British are just as classist as we are. Classist. Classist. And it was this whole thing of like, even now there was a moment I had with the best friend's best friend. And he literally talked to me like I was 16. And it made me so upset. Like he was like, oh, that thing that you do, brown girls always do it.

Like he was so patronizing and so condescending. And even now I'm like sweating. Like he made me feel like 16 again. And he made me feel powerless. like he made me feel like 16 again and he made me feel powerless and he made me feel stupid and he and it's like how am I three years away from 40 allowing this tiny man to talk to me like this and I just reverted back to like 15 year old poppy with no power and just a mouth and I still feel it now with those boys with those boys like those cousins those men that remind me of that time. And yeah, I'm still angry, I guess, and upset and chippy because like those men didn't have our backs. They didn't say anything. They didn't,

they weren't like, oh, you know what, pops, you sit down while I go and help our mother in the kitchen. Like. Did you have that kind of same dynamic growing up? Yeah, there was no male ally. And it's not even like just standing up and saying, oh, I'll wash the dishes too. It was no one even one even said like hey maybe that's too much for them like i don't want to wash the dishes but you shouldn't be making her do either maybe the grown-ups should be doing this and the cooking and the cooking was unacceptable but like our mothers at the time weren't working right they weren't they weren't in full-time jobs that was seen as their jobs but what about the wives who are our age right they're still working then they have to come home and fucking cook oh yeah my mom

worked the whole time. My mum worked full time to support us and she looked after both of us and she cooked every single meal and I helped her do bits of it. But really, she looked after everything

and she kind of still does. What I'm finding now in this new generation as well, like my, the age I'm at now, my elderly, my relatives are old and now my parents

are in their 70s and I'm starting to realise that they think it's going to be totally fine for me to look after them but not my brother who lives 15 minutes away. What? It's going realize that they think it's going to be totally fine for me to look after them, but not my brother who lives 15 minutes away. What? It's going to be me.

It's going to be me. And I'm like, how is it going to be me? Have they like imposed incompetence on him that he won't be able to do? He's just a dummy little boy. Yes, exactly. He would never do that. He doesn't do those things. Like the DIY chores that I do in the house that he doesn't do.

It's like he's too good for it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's above them. That's why my mum had six of us because it was girl, girl, girl, girl, girl. And then she had... And when she had the boy, she was like, done. And I feel so...

My life is fulfilled. I feel so ashamed and embarrassed for saying this. I don't think I've ever said this and I hope my sister doesn't listen. But when... I'm really close to her and I love her. But when sister five was born, I cried. I cried when my sister was born.

I cried. I was like... Did you? Yeah. I sobbed. Because I saw everyone else sobbing. It's so internalised. You sister was born I cried I was like did you yeah I sobbed it's so everyone else is so internalized you're like and also I was like my parents are going to keep trying and I was so sad for them I was sad because I was exhausted of taking care of my siblings myself and my other sister we were third parents and we were like because we were doing nappies and bedtime I was like it's so funny though because when I had my baby when I found out I

was pregnant I went in for the scan I wanted it to be a girl. Yeah, because you're cool. I was so psyched. I was like, going to have a girl, going to have the best time, I'm going to be best friends, we're really good. And then it was a boy and I was like, oh, okay. I'm not sure how I'm going to look after a boy. But in my head, I was also like, I'm going to have to raise, I'm going to have to unraise a misogynist. He's not a misogynist.

He's a baby. Yeah, yeah. Can I tell you something really disgusting that I learned? You might already know this. But apparently I've heard that a male fetus can have an erection from 16 weeks. Oh, yeah. He's not a misogynist. He's a baby. Can I tell you something really disgusting that I learned? You might already know this, but apparently I've heard that a male fetus can have an erection from 16 weeks. Oh, yeah. I mean, I have a one-year-old

and I see erections all the time. It's just like, constantly fucking hard. Yeah, yeah. But he's amazing and you're going to do an amazing job. But also, you're on learning, right? Yeah. So a part of the stuff that I wanted to talk about in this episode a lot was about masculine energies

because somebody once told me that I had a masculine energy. And at the time I was like, well, I'm taking that as a compliment. Because what does that mean? Like I'm confident or I scare you or like, I don't know what it is, but it felt like I should take it and kind of be empowered by it. If you said to a man, you've got feminine energy, guaranteed he'd take that as a derogatory comment. Do you understand? But being masculine is like, it's the upper echelon, it's the height, yeah. You raise the game.'s the height, yeah. You're raised again.

In the pecking order. And for so long, and I think we talked about this, like, I wanted to be a boy. We talk about this in the show. Like, we wanted to be men. We wanted to be raised, like, born as men

because they just had an easier ride. And we're not saying not all men, and I'm sure it was difficult for them, but... I mean, we could say it all meant her.

Every man benefits from male supremacy. I don't want to say patriarchy, but every man benefits from it. Women also benefit if they play into it, right? Yes, absolutely. So my ideas of women who are kind of committing to the stereotypical tropes that we have in mainstream media of what a woman is, that can really help men reinforce their ideas of us.

I've been reading a lot about trad wives, you know, the trad wife movement. What's trad wife? It's women online who prefer traditional traditional gender oh i see as a feminist i believe you should be able to choose if you'd like to be a traditional wife and you know if you want to if you want to cook at home for your husband and you want to i saw a really good video the other day where this woman was like uh i make dinner for my husband to make sure everything's ready at home and when he arrives from work i nut him and i was like what what does that mean and then she was like and then the morning before he goes to work i nut him twice before he goes to work

and then when he's at work at lunchtime i go up to his office in my car and we nut in the car and i was like is he a squirrel also how old is he how that he's nutting so much in one day seven times a day she has sex with him and this is how like traditional wife system where she just feels like she needs to be that is a good question because they're not gonna be doing that shit in the 30s no i think she did not look young i mean she looked like she needs to please him. That is a good question. Because they're not going to be doing that shit in their 30s. No, I think she did not look young. I mean, she looked like she was in her 30s, which is a ridiculous thing

for me to say. Or maybe he's viagering the situation. But I was like, that's amazing. And those women feel like that. Some women want to be not equal with their partner, right?

Like some women want that. And how do we as feminists accept that? Because we have to accept it. But it's choice though, isn't it? It's choice. I was having this conversation with a friend yesterday

that like, you know, remember the old trope that used to go around that in a sub-dom relationship the sub is actually the one in control and he's actually so there's an element of like you know i don't know enough about sort of sex politics and dynamics but like is there a bit of that incur like occurring here like is she actually yeah she actually wears the trousers secretly yeah well but i think But I think it all comes down to choice. If she wants to do that and she's willing and she's giving consent in her own way, then let it be so.

But then where it becomes quite murky is if she's been groomed or she's been brainwashed in some way. I think also what becomes tricky is if she's then presenting her relationship to her child as this is the default dynamic of like... This is the norm, right? Because I think I grew up seeing my parents in that kind of very traditional patriarchal my dad is the leader my mum worked

but he was in charge always he was physically bigger than her like everything I was like I noticed that and I think a bit of me grew up thinking and I still think somewhere in there it's the same and I found a lot of my relationships I've had to work through and unlearn and figure out I mean I feel guilty every time my partner picks up the hoover me me right and I have to sit there and be like no like you're not gonna get up and offer to do it just I have to like white knuckle through it you know like it's but it's so inbuilt in us though yeah I can just hear it in my head like that oh my god he shouldn't be doing it oh my god he shouldn't be doing it and I, my God, he shouldn't be doing it.

And I'm like closing my eyes, like trying to rewrite the tape. Right. But like it's still happening. Also, like us Asians, we're from housework-y families. Like we didn't have cleaners growing up, right? Like, no, no one here knew how to clean. Do you know how many of my Asian friends now, like I have to convince that it's OK to have a cleaner, you know? Yeah, I'm not there yet.

I can't have a cleaner. I have a male cleaner. Oh, I love that. That's great. That is like ultimate feminist move. Yeah, yeah'm not there yet. I can't have a cleaner. I have a male cleaner. Oh, I love that. That's great. That is like ultimate feminist move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think also the dynamic is different. When you're in a household full of girls,

like my brother... Is he good at the cleaning? He's a bit too much. But like, it's like, if you ever want to come to a freak social experiment, come to our house. Because honestly, my brother does everything we did because we just treated him to quote like like a girl it's like you're gonna be you're gonna be hoovering you're

gonna be and he's he's actually gone a bit far the other way but he does it i kind of hate that thing that i have inside me where i'm a cleaner like once the meal is over the first thing i want to do is pick up all the plates and take it yeah is this my personality or was this pushed on me exactly and that's also what i think about the dynamics of the male and female. It's a thousand percent push. How much of me am I rebelling against this idea of masculinity and femininity? Or how much of it's me? I mean, would you say that you have a masculine energy?

I get told I have a masculine energy. I've been told at work I can come across head mistressy, which I guess is a female masculine energy. I find that offensive. Yeah, it was hard to take. Who told you? Your equal or someone above you? An equal.

Oh, fuck them. And I've been told I'm patronising or condescending when I'm saying the same things as men. I don't know if I have a masculine... I don't think I've ever been told I have a masculine energy. Do you know what masculine is synonymous with, which is probably why you're being told it? It's the moment a woman knows herself, knows what she want is um assertive doesn't um and ah

doesn't show any sign of uh like she's not hesitating she's just saying it direct that's when that's when that word is used i also sometimes wonder if it's because i grow facial hair quite easily but they're like you're giving me like a masculine energy. You're giving me masculine energy. Your beard is giving me man. When I was younger, because I had lots of hair and still have lots of hair on everybody, I was like, I must have more testosterone

than the average woman, right? Because I'm hairy. No, you're just Asian. Yeah. Hello, United Kingdom. This is Eurovision cast. Who's going to win Eurovision? 12 points go to...

Ukraine! For Ukraine, yeah! We will tune the Ukrainian people and the rest of Europe really proud. Welcome to Liverpool! Eurovision Cast. The ultimate backstage pass to Eurovision 2023 in Liverpool. Join Nina, Daniel, Gunan and me, Moms. As we bring you all of the news, views and gossip from the greatest show on Earth.

Hey guys, I'm Mae Muller. Please come and join our Eurovision family. Oh, wow. Eurovision cast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Brown girls do it too. Do you think that equality is actually achievable? Well, so I don't know if you know who Angela Senney is,

and she's just recently written a book. I love her. The Patriarchs. What was that one before, which was like a health one? So she did Inferior. That's one I've read. And then she did Superior on race science. Yes.

I mean, she's amazing. And she's just written a new book on the origins of patriarchy. And the point that she makes is that the way we see the world now with male dominance, this is not the natural order of things. Societies haven't always organised themselves in this way. And so male dominance is something that has to constantly reassert itself. It fights to survive. Like a virus.

It does. So when there's things like, you know, the work I'm doing or what you guys are doing, there will be counter forces, right? For men and women. Yeah, it's fighting to survive. I also see really disturbing studies like you know as women start to out earn their husbands they also do a disproportionately higher amount of housework so as they as they earn more they do more and their husbands do

proportionately less you're more likely to be cheated on if you earn more more likely to suffer verbal and physical abuse if you earn more you're more likely to get divorced if you earn more like it's really shocking stuff that I thought we would have solved for. But the point is that, like, you know, patriarchy, I hate that word, it fights to survive. Pollution.

The pollution. The pollution. Male pollution. Yeah, it fights to survive. So I think whilst we're making progress... Does it feel like two steps forwards, four steps backwards? You're in this constant kind of weird equilibrium.

This is my thing with equality because I would love to campaign for equality. I'm a big feminist. I would definitely call myself that publicly. But I always struggle. My relationship is a good example of that. It's like we're equals 100%. I had a civil partnership, didn't get married, didn't believe in that. I wanted everything about our relationship to be equal.

We both did fair share of the housework, the child work, everything. But I wouldn't say, I the for me the equality the power dynamic is shifting constantly it's not like we're both sitting here and that's fine it's like i've got this i'm gonna look after this thing that you can't look after because you're busy and then it switches but that's equality that's equality though but that's that is because it's constantly shifting yeah and it's shifting equally it's equal is it's that that's cool that's great i'm all right with that that's sharing yeah yeah it's when it's too much one That's cool. That's great. I'm all right with that. That's sharing. It's when it's too much one way.

But do you have, to be a bit positive, do you have men coming up to you saying your work and the things that you share has had a positive effect? And now when my sister's in the kitchen or my mum's in the kitchen, I'm like, get on out of there. I'll do the samosas. You getting any of that? I'm getting on out of there I'll do the samosas you getting any of that I'm getting on my horse I'm making some samosas going into the distance with my

cowboy hat not in person no okay well are they messaging you are they are they sliding into your dms being like I'll like send a comment um you'll like make a comment on a post but they're not sort of effusive in there like you've really blown the lid on this for me. Like, thank you. Because you're kind of taking their power. You're being like, the thing that you're celebrated and you're put on a pedestal for,

all I'm trying to do is cut off a bit of your pedestal and give it to somebody else. And that's hard for them to give that up. And the point you made about equality earlier, and I think this applies to everything, like, you know, gender, sex and racial politics. Nobody in history has ever given up power without a fight yeah right this notion of like make more room at the table pull up another chair power is a finite pie like let's just accept that you know so true if you put another chair at the table you cut the slices

into smaller pieces and nobody is willing to give that up So I think there's going to be like an all-out race war and there's going to be a sex war. Sex war? We're not talking about sex war. Brown girls do it too. Series 52. I love the idea of there being a sex war. We're in the fucking trenches.

We would be in the trenches. We would have rifles. And you'd have like a grenade. The sex war would be great. We'd be like saving private Poppy. And Rubina. The lesser known oscar-winning film directed by Raj you know what I mean right like there's got to be like a real bun fight for it there has to be yeah I think you're right I mean it's also about us all

realizing that so one thing I have is that I find interesting is when I took parental leave, I took parental leave and I shared it with my partner. And actually, I didn't realise how difficult I was going to find that because I was like, I believe in equality and we're like doing this thing. And then all the other women I know, bar one, have all just taken the year for themselves,

but you can share it with your partner. And I'd go to like baby clubs, right? I'd go to all those like mothering things and everyone would be like what you're like sharing it oh I would never do that that's ridiculous because it's giving up something that's amazing which is like time to raise your child just you and I did feel like I was sacrificing something to do it and it's dumb he has all the right it's his child just as mine it shouldn't be something that has to be shared in that way it should be for both of you. Yeah, we should both get a year. It can sometimes come across.

And like, that's why women are so worried about using the word, I'm a feminist, because they don't want to see, be seen as what is traditionally seen as a stereotypical of feminism is this idea that you could be man-hating. And it's just like, it's a misinterpretation of the word, right? But it's 100% a stereotype that people attach to that word. And I don't help that word because I'm like, I hate brown men. I'm like a special brand of feminist work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, it's brown men. It's very specific. But I think it's important to note that there are lots of amazing Asian men, you know, doing incredible stuff and making space for women. Like this podcast, our podcast came from an Asian guy who put us together and it was his idea. And he trusted us to do this. Did you ever follow the account Awards for Good Boys? No. Oh, my God.

So she's, this is your jam. You both need to follow this account immediately. It's like little trophies for boys who do good things. Like, you know, I made sure she came before I did. Here's a little trophy. Fuck off. Why do they need a trophy? But it's so, it's hilarious. Oh, it's done in ironic. I. Here's a little trophy. Or like... Fuck off! Why do they need a trophy? But it's so...

It's hilarious. Oh, it's done in ironic... Oh, it's like a... I thought it was a serious thing. I was like, I don't want him to have a trophy. Why is he getting a fucking trophy? I should come first.

All the time. You should. You've got to follow it. Because, yeah. No, but... Men need to be fucking celebrated for the tiniest... I know.

So you're not a raging fascist. Like... but you know I totally get your point though because I've had to actually soften the way I post things on Pink Ladu because I need to recognise that I can't alienate the male audience you need them on side

because to access power you need to be at the doors of it right? I always think that about the points in my career that have, like, gone somewhere is when one white man gave me a foot up. It's always a white man. It's always a white man. He always tends to help me

to get to that next bit. Like, always. It's always a white man taking a bit of a chance on me. Like, amazing women have supported me throughout my career, but the white man has always helped me get more money.

My God, me too. And get a promotion. Because he's the one with the power. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. If we still believe that men have power, we should Jedi mind trick them into giving it to us. I'm up for that.

Have you watched The Demon Headmaster when you were a kid? Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, look into my eyes. Give me the fucking pie. But are there young or old brown boy allies who are really, who are feminists, who are saying to women, come, sit at the table,

have some of my pie, eat it, take it, have a laddu. I really want laddus now. This is really ridiculous. There's some frutella there. There are other sweets

available too, whatever you have to say. Oh God, I have to think about how I'm going to express this. I know, you're struggling. You're struggling right now.

But you also don't have to, you don't have to lie. No, I need to answer it because I need to tell the truth. No, I have to think about how I'm going to press this. I know, you're struggling. You're struggling right now. You don't have to lie. No, I need to answer it because I need to tell the truth. No, I sort of weirdly love it. Like that's sadomatic. It's like, yeah, see, there's no man. Fuck the man. But yeah, no, let's be positive. Well, because it's quite fun to hate men.

Like, let's be honest, it's fun. Okay, so let's strip it, but let's just be honest. No, I can answer it. Okay, so I do think that there is a new generation of man who recognises how unfair it is that, you know, can answer it i just okay so i do think that there is a new generation of man who recognizes how unfair it is that you know their sisters and their mothers did all of the hard physical and emotional labor what are they doing about it they're trying to step in i'm trying i'm getting all this with you i'm like yeah what are they doing then i'm trying to step in and you know

some of the messages that i do get actually is like, Raj, I don't know what to do. OK. And I think that's actually quite, it's quite nice. So what should they be doing? They should be getting involved. They should be like changing the nappy, figuring out how to feed the baby. They should be Googling how to wash dishes if they don't know how. A wiki how. But they can like watch a YouTube video on how to replumb a toilet. Watch a YouTube video on how to fill a dishwasher.

Or, you know, what is involved in keeping a house tidy? How to change the bedsheets? Like, learn it. Like, ask your partner. I know you shouldn't have to ask your partner, but for the sake of this argument, ask your partner what's involved and then go and learn how to do it.

It's so funny, isn't it? Because if you grew up in a house where you saw women doing the majority of the chores, the food, the cooking, the buying, everything, I think if we're this generation of women, we would never be with a man who doesn't know how to do that like if i went on a date with a guy who told me that he didn't cook meals i'd be like bye this is over see you later five minutes yeah i read a really amazing quote recently that said that feminism empowers um and elevates women but

patriarchy infantilizes men and creates a situation where they can't even make a sandwich for themselves. What about, and you don't have to answer this, like your brother, do you see him do the household chores now with his wife? Yes. Okay, so with our generation, we're all millennials here, there is a chance.

But I also find that really frustrating. I find it really frustrating that I'll go into his family home and see him clean and like look after his family in a way that I completely respect and love him for. Didn't do it for you.

But you watched me. Yeah. You watched it all happen. And now you get to have the second life where you're fine. Like you found somebody. Have you seen that study about men want obedient wives, but independent daughters? Yeah, that makes so much sense.

It's like they want to, yeah, like your daughter is your genes. So you want her to be like the type of wife you get as a reflection on you as a man so you want like an obedient one so interesting theory around it but yeah yeah well what's the other way like what do women want in a partner that they want that they that they want differently in a son i don't think anyone's cared enough to do a study on that oh that's so sad gap like you need to do that yeah i mean as a woman who has a partner and a son i'm trying to think of the things that like are similar obedient husband and obedient son oh yes same i won't say that just like a kid obedience say please yeah that's me so

i mean how if we if we have a girl in our lives that's born, how do you feel like we should celebrate a girl's life? And what do we tell young girls now, British Asian girls that are growing up in society now, how do we make sure that they feel like they have some power and that they can do something? I mean, if you have a girl, celebrate her jubilantly, celebrate her arrival just so that she knows

she's worthy by virtue of existing and not only for achieving. Because I think that's a big mistake we make culturally. I've read that girls as young, I think the inflection point for girls starting to believe that intelligence is a male trait happens around the age of six or seven. That is tapped.

That is so messed up. I think, you know, just trying to continually expose girls to narratives that suggest that women are typically these things too that we associate with men not that you're my therapist but how do i hate brown men less i'm joking how can i support brown men be better allies it's like this is like asking a person of colour how can they support

white people yeah I know it's such a painful wound like it's like well fuck like I need to cuddle you into recognising my fucking humanity

I know but I one of the criticisms we get a lot of trolls for doing this podcast right and a lot of brown men troll us our whole first series the biggest troll we got

was that we were brown boy hating yeah because you guys didn't just stop with your brown boy bashing we were like but they kind of have a point because one of the criticisms i get a lot is i'm like a brown man hater but because of all the things that i've experienced growing up it was so easy for me to not like brown men i've never met a brown man i liked we get called a lot of self-hating Asian you know

why would you always date non-brown guys I think up until about two years ago I'd never met a brown man I liked and actually since doing the podcast

I've met a lot of brown men I'm like yes I rate you bruv like we should be friends where are they can I meet them you can have my friend

who I meet he's great he's sick I feel like I'm losing faith in humanity no you know what I think that is a thing I think if you don't have any brown boy friends as in like platonic mates actually i do my bet my like

dude of honor was a brown man oh there you go there you go you're fine you're fine i love him he's just the best person ever so i'm like what am i so we need to clone him we need to clone her meat any brown mates do you want to come clone that are wicked my son oh he's brown he's and he's a great guy he's a great guy. He is a really great guy. I don't want to get all eugenics right now. I meant full brown, not half brown. But sure, it'll do.

We're going to snatch that title away from you. Anyway, thank you so much for coming on Brown Girl to do it too. We've loved having you and we've been fangirling since forever. Yeah, that's the most fun part about doing this podcast is we get to invite people on that we've been lookingangirling since well since forever yeah this is the most fun part about doing this podcast is we get to invite people on

that we've been like looking at from a distance in a stalky way yeah so thank you we really appreciate your time thank you so much for having me I just I love talking to both of you

I could do this for hours I know we could and now it's time for Shaggy Ants! You've reached the Shaggy Auntie's call centre. Want advice you can't ask your real aunties for? Like, how do you ask for what you want in bed?

Not sure which hole is a goal? Where do anal beads really go? Have you been faking orgasms your whole adult life? Accidentally called your boss daddy? Is your long-time love not going down south? For more than just the tip, we're here for you. Yes, you. And you.

And you. Let's hear this week's dilemma. Hi, girls. I think I've got a big dilemma on my hands. A few years ago, I was in my dating hoe phase and was pretty much down for anything. I matched with a guy who was in a relationship, but he was upfront in saying he was only on the app for a threesome. We all had a few conversations together and went out for drinks, but it never got to the bedroom as I got a weird one-sided vibe from the husband and felt that the wife wasn't really down for it.

Anyway, I recently went for a job interview, and guess who my new boss might be? The husband. Whoa. I didn't recognize him at first as he goes by a nickname in the office, I recently went for a job interview and guess who my new boss might be? The husband. I didn't recognize him at first as he goes by a nickname in the office, but I soon connected the dots. I saw he has a toddler now. So his wife was pregnant at the time, which kind of explains a lot.

It is a great opportunity to take, but am I opening a can of worms here or am I overthinking it? Bottom line, how do I explain I'm familiar with what potential new boss is packing wow that's deep whoa so she went on a date with a guy who wanted a threesome and his partner she got a one-sided vibe that the guy was really interested in her but the wife wasn't giving too much energy it never went anywhere they didn't have sex then she does an interview for a job. The boss is the guy. Did the guy know? Did he like pre, like how, was this all a coincidence? That would be creepy.

Yeah, that would be creepy. That changes things. That changes my life. You know, I think like if you're having a threesome for the first time, that must be like quite a challenge, you know, like quite to psych yourself up for it. But also if you're having a threesome with a pregnant woman. I think to this listener, I would say if you're, trust your gut instinct, and if you got a vibe that he was more into it and she wasn't, then, but then she's now, if she gets the job, she's now working for him and he's going to want to.

Oh God. This is my thing, too sexy for your shirt. Too sexy for your shirt. You just talked about it. I literally just talked about it. You talked about it earlier. I've been shagging someone at work. Unless he is like peak 10 and

you really think it's going to go somewhere she doesn't want to go anywhere it's a it's a three way it's a threesome it shouldn't be they should definitely not be having sex if it's just a if it's love and love and love and love is love do you think you can sleep with someone casually at work and then carry on working with them professionally no because someone will have feelings somewhere somehow it will it will just... Someone will something... Do you think? Yeah. I think I'm inclined to agree, actually. I'm trying to be more minded by that. I never, ever, as exactly the same as you, I do not fuck with anyone at work.

Have you ever had any dalliances with anyone at work? Oh, yeah. Flirted. Flirted and thought about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, no. No, no, no, no, no. Especially if I'm working with them.

Especially if they're my equal or below me or above me. No. This, like, old creepy dude who I was once working for, we went to the pub after work one day and he was like, I'm going to kiss you now. And I was like, that is disgusting. No, you're not. That's ridiculous.

You are literally my senior. And I made a big fuss of it. All right. Don't know why I brought that up. Well, I was never into it anyway. And how was it the next day? He just ignored it. But I told everyone.

So what do we so i would say to this listener i need a bit more has she taken the job she's asking how do i explain i'm familiar with what potential new boss is packing what does she mean by that by the way she doesn't she hasn't seen his penis she's seen his penis wow where he surely he he's surely he's interviewed her and he recognizes her from the fucking drinks that they had together where he proposed a threesome with his pregnant wife he's not gonna be like oh are you rabina papi like i forgot he's not gonna do that he's gonna know her and but he's also gonna deny it he's gonna know what you're talking about exactly like your old man did she should um she should totally bring it up with him she should not take the job she should be like she should be like at she should be at the interview no no she should she should totally bring it up with him she should not take the job she should be like at the interview

no no she should be like when she gets the job when she's on her lunch break and be like oh my god you won't believe how I know Richard right Richard right we met right

because I met your wife when she was pregnant and we were going to have a threesome I love how you're saying he's Richard he could be Gulvinder he probably is

you're right Gully Gully that's his nickname I actually know a Gully he's Scottish and he's lovely I don't want to

it's not the same guy so let's make up another Amrit that sounds like a woman's name it is a woman's name let's move on what do we tell this listener it's a good one

you bring it up you bring it up you open about it you're honest about it it's a great opportunity to take I think she's going to I think it's a great opportunity to put your i'm i think she's gonna i think it's

a great opportunity to put your career first take the job take the job but it's how she manages the situation because she's gonna have so much fun if it's your boss because the power dynamic would just be so good for you yeah but he's gonna imagine the christmas party you'll be like you want some of this i know but it's not fucking what's that film love actually she's gonna be breaking up a family potentially here he's's got a toddler. But the woman knows that she was game for it because she went to the threesome meeting.

Yeah, but she said that she got more of a vibe from the husband than the woman, than the wife. Yeah, but maybe she's like, baby, you can sleep with my husband

because I don't fancy you. You don't know what that dynamic is. So what are we saying to this listener? What's the advice? Take the job. Don't fuck your boss.

Yeah, I would say the same. Thanks for listening. If you have any thoughts, questions or dilemmas for the Shagany aunts, you can email us at browngirlsdoit2 at bbc.co.uk. Or you can send us a WhatsApp or a voice note on our new number 07968 100 822. That's 07968-10822. Brown girls do it too. When you meet someone online, can you trust they are who they say they are? I keep thinking so much about you. She's so stunning.

It's all well planned. Love, Janessa is the true crime podcast from the BBC World Service and CBC Podcasts, investigating the murky world of online romance scams. She was trying to get me to send her money. And it's available now. You win their hearts, you win their wallets. Listen on BBC Sounds.