Brown Girls Do It Too - What Happens On The Dancefloor

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

The dancefloor should be a safe space for everyone so why is it often the opposite? Poppy and Rubina discuss existing as a woman in this world and the first times they felt unsafe around men.This episode features conversations about sexual assault and harassment. If you feel impacted by anything discussed, there are lots of great resources available at www.bbc.co.uk/ActionLineHave a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail] you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're through to the Brown Girls Do It Too hotline. How can I help? Before we continue this call, we must warn you. One, this isn't an insurance call. Two, you'll most definitely be hearing bad language, swearing and themes of an adult nature. And three, if your ears aren't ready for some home truths, then I suggest you hang up now. But we will miss you.

I don't know if I'm ready for some home truths. Okay, you hang up. No, you hang up. No, you first. No, you do it. Okay, fine. This is a podcast about sex. At least it started off like that.

Now we talk about everything. Everything is sex. And sex is everything. And that includes our mistakes, our heartbreaks and our hot, hot, hot takes. Got any hot takes today? Um, my hot take of the day. Yeah.

Is hot chocolate really delicious. Going back to that. Half a hot chocolate is delicious. Half a hot chocolate is delicious. A full one is a commitment. We shared a hot chocolate, didn't we? We had a situationship with one. You had a situationship with a hot chocolate. We both had a situationship.

Yeah, that's true. We shared a hot chocolate. Yeah. We literally take care of each other now, like two old biddies in a care home. We do. Have you taken your meds? Dorothy, take your cholesterol.

Where are we? Have we gone up north? We're slightly cockney in a care home. Oh, we're cockney in a care home. To be honest, when all the men

die in our lives, it will just be us left. Doubling continent in a care home. We're going to have the best time. Who's having an affair with the warden?

Definitely you. Yeah. Definitely you. Sure. I'm playing board games with Bruce in the daycare room is Bruce gay

yes okay yeah yeah fine what kind of board games are you playing I imagine I'll get really into Trivial Pursuit

Trivial Pursuit Game of Life you know coming to the end of your life it's Game of Life I don't think anyone in a care home is playing Game of Life

what do you think they're doing backgammon I think they're singing Frank Sinatra but actually because we're going to be old we're probably going to be singing Britney Spears like it was their Frank Sinatra oh my be old, we're probably going to be singing Britney Spears

like it was fair Frank Sinatra. Oh my God, imagine. Imagine being like a little old lady singing Britney Spears' Nick Airhead. It would be fucking epic. Hit me, baby. I think that's actually when your Instagram crew will take off. When I'll finally be an A-lister.

Yeah, yeah. From an S-list. People will bring you on like daytime TV. I'll be viral. I'll be viral. Yeah, you'll be viral. What are you singing? What's your,

you know how like old people now sing like Frank Sinatra or whatever? Yeah. Like old school songs. Songs. Yeah.

Like Ella Fitzgerald. I think I'll be singing that stuff too. I mean sure, we love a bit of Frank and we love a bit of Ella. Strangers in the night. Who's that?

Exchanging glances. I don't know who that is. You don't know who that is? No. That's what I'm going to be singing Right I'm Robina And the first time I felt unsafe around men Was in a nightclub

And I felt a boner on my thigh I was 16 I'm Poppy And the first time I felt unsafe around men Was since the day I was born Okay, that's a stretch, I'm lying I felt unsafe around the age of the day I was born. Okay, that's a stretch. I'm lying. I felt unsafe around the age of eight. This episode, as you can probably already tell, is slightly different for us.

We want to talk about something that it's hard to be funny about. Sexual assault. Most women have experienced it in some way at some time. And we will be treating this with sensitivity. However, if this is something that you might find too difficult to listen to then please feel free to turn this episode off you can join us next week when we're back to our silly clowny selves we are switching up the tone today i can already feel it in our in our introduction right why do we decide

that we wanted to talk about sexual assault and harassment well we've never talked about it before no not really not explicitly and we haven't actually shared stories about the darker side of the sexual experience and i think it was twofold for us really a lot of you had written in and asked us to cover it and we frankly didn't know how yeah because they're usually like idiots we're just being ridiculous but yeah we they're usually like idiots we're just being ridiculous but yeah we're trying to make everyone feel comfortable around sex but actually this is deeply uncomfortable um and the other thing is just it feels like stories in the news are just regular about comedians politicians you know men from a certain generation and all of

their stories are still coming out and it felt like right to tell our perspective on that as well so in the five years that we've been doing this podcast there's been quite a shift in the landscape hasn't there there's been me to harvey weinstein he's locked up behind bars lots of high profile uh public figures that have now been either convicted or charged or been investigated so it does feel some change is in the ether they say statistically the sexual assault that happens is usually from someone you know it's really less percent less than one percent is from stranger danger rape is what i learned on doing a documentary once about sexual assault and rape

have you ever had any experiences that you can look back and think, I'm not sure I was fully consenting to that? Yeah, so look, full disclaimer, and I think we can talk about this on the podcast. There's always some dodgy uncle or family, or like there's always someone that you know in the family or extended family who's just not being appropriate with you or your cousins or someone else.

And I think a lot of brown women, not just brown women, but I think a lot of us live with it and we put up with it. And like we were silent about it. The most recent experience I had was I was in a spa and this man who quite literally looked like a fish, he looked like a fish. Like imagine fish could walk he was giving me a massage and he was um inappropriate in a it was being really inappropriate like

really lingering on my bum and just under my boob and I just froze because the last time this well yeah dodgy things in on the dance floor. But where I came closest to, oh, my God, this is really not cool. And I don't want this. And since then, I'm like, I've never wanted him. He was a guy. I've never gone with a male masseuse. I will always go with a female masseuse. And I didn't want to complain.

Well, I just wanted to just leave. Yeah. We were checking out the next day. It was that morning, actually. It was the morning we were checking out. I didn't want to say anything, but my friend was like, no. I totally understand that you don't want to confront him, but the manager needs to know because he will be doing this to other people.

So I'm glad I did. And I spoke to her. Great. But it's such a grey area, you know? Yeah, especially with getting a massage and paying for a service. And you're half naked. And that's what he does. And that's why it's like you could be doing this it's your word against his word there's no cameras what do you do what about you what about this guy in the boner oh god

I mean I was I was a teenager and I was at like my second nightclub ever the garage and it was like I remember being really into like indie music and wearing like and wearing black hoodies and wearing lots of thick black eyeliner. And I just remember everyone was dancing with guys, random guys that were there. And I just ended up dancing with a mate of one of the guys that was already hooking up with one of my friends. And we were just dancing and it was all fine. And then he kind of pulled me in closer to him. And I was like, oh, OK, this kind of feels OK. But in my head being like, I don't really want to be this close to you

you're a stranger and then I just full on felt his boner like poking into my thigh I didn't say anything yeah and I remember speaking to a friend afterwards

and being like oh did you because I was like is that normal did you feel the boner of the guy that you were dancing with and she was just like

yeah yeah it's normal it's fine and actually it's not yeah and because he was like much older than me as well I think that was also where the power imbalance was but I've had way more gray spaces with people like I remember freshers week at university it was like day three and I'd gone out drinking and I I was wanting to go back to kind of dorms and I ended up losing all the people that I was in dorms with.

So I was like walking, I was walking behind them, but like quite far behind them. And I was just like walking by myself. Like I was drunk and I was kind of like, you know, maybe like ambling from side to side. And this random guy just came up to me and like grabbed me and like pushed me up against the wall and started like kissing me everywhere.

And I was like, Oh my God, who are you? Like, I just didn't even know who he was. I didn't know what was going on. And I was like, no me everywhere and I was like oh my god who are you like I just didn't even know who he was I didn't know what's going on and I was like no no I was like I was drunk but I was like no no no I don't want this like pushing him away like trying to like get away and the only reason nothing happened was because some other random guy who had met me like two

nights before my first night fresh sweet saw me and was like you okay and I said no and he came over and pulled the guy off of me and then he walked me back to my room and I was like I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't yeah this guy hadn't seen me but then all of a sudden made me that moment made me realize the power of men like because he had stood up for me and stepped in a moment you know like really cool of him because he was like 18 you know he just saw you know we were really young and he still he still noticed that it wasn't right and protected me a stranger yeah I think about all the stories anecdotes that my female friends cousins have told me and I hate saying it's like nine out of ten times it's a family member or someone they know and it I feel like a lot of it is so no one says anything and you suffer in silence you compartmentalize like a lot of women you need to say

or you just kind of accept that it's the way of the world and it's not yes I think that's the thing that you kind of the older you get the more you're like actually no that's that's rubbish like I had um a good story of a tv executive and I was a researcher in a company and it was a Christmas party we're all in the pub everyone was drinking and he came over to me and he was like tv's so changed so much back in the day I used to be able to do this and he put his hand on my leg on my leg wow in front of everyone and I was and he like you know that's I'm this isn't this is a minor thing right I'm not categorizing this as sexual assault I understand that there's like grades but

he he was doing it to like humiliate me basically to be like you know I could I could do this like it's like a power thing yeah and then I was like but you're literally doing it you're doing it to me right now and I had to like lift his hand off because I was aware I mean I was a researcher I was really junior but I was like no and then he was mortified he was so embarrassed about it wow well this is it and it's like it takes so much I think I think the moment women become emboldened enough to speak and it takes a lot to speak out like this thing that with the fucking masseuse happened like the like in 2020 in covid it was like 2021 22 like two years ago and I just froze and I'm woman. You'd think, you know, with all my sass and my chat, I'd be like, uh-uh.

And I was like, oh, just let it in. And that's what you do. And the dance was a really interesting place, isn't it? Because it's where you're able to look at your body in a different way and whether you feel free, like how you move, how you dance. But I remember, and I think this probably does still happen to some extent, is like guys going around

and like holding your hips to like move you out of the way yeah yeah which you know at the time you're just like well you know they're just trying to move away but it's like it's so it's a power move it's like a physical power move and you can you can say don't touch me yeah you can like you know you can obviously say that but I don't think I don't think I've ever said to any guy in the dance floor don't touch me absolutely I mean I was in clubs in a corduroy like just doing my interpretive dancing no one was moving me with my hips but this really dangerous thing of like maybe you're asking for it sometimes you wear something because you want that attention but with consent yeah you know you want people you want people to look at you you want to feel sexy but you want consent you want to feel

control and I think a lot of the times on a woman I remember this this was such a new experience for me um about a month ago I wore a really teeny tiny dress I'm talking the stuff that you wear to a nightclub you know those like bougie nightclubs like there was nothing nothing left to be imagined and um platform wedges I don't dress like that you've never seen me wear a dress like that I mean hats off like hats off to women who do I'm not judging them I clearly wore it yeah and the amount of lingering lechy looks I got and those looks where she's asking for it she's wearing this dress because she's asking for it now often when I wear something and I look cool or I think I look great like I'll be like I'll get looks but But this felt totally uncomfortable. Literally everyone from the bus driver to the people at the bus stop to like men in corner shops and off licenses.

The guy outside the market stall just looked at you differently, looked at me differently. And it's like, you know, I don't want to I don't want to put the power back to the dress. But it's it's like a man's perception of you because you chose to wear that dress. I mean, you couldn't see my knickers, but it was pretty... I felt unsafe around men and I was like an eight-year-old fully covered, right?

So you can imagine how unsafe you might feel. And this is exactly why I don't wear those dresses. I don't wear those outfits because I got a taste of it the other day, literally about a month ago, and it unreal the amount of attention and and the kind of attention I was not comfortable with and we were like getting looks like you know you want to look good and you like people looking at you but you know when someone lingers for a bit too long yeah you know yeah when have you ever felt unsafe around men um I think I just go through like lots of ways.

I definitely think when there are stories in the news, I struggle. Like when Sarah Everard happened, I think that kind of resonated with a lot of women our age. But this is a strange thing for me to say because she was white. I was also like, I felt like if it could happen to her, it should be happening to me already. Or like she's kind of like I I don't know I kind of I feel like you kind of can only see it

when it's happening to someone who's of your race weirdly so like the Sarah Everard thing happened and I was affected by it like any woman

of our age living and I should have felt like kind of more of an interesting compassion to that but you know what really got me is the

Sabrina Nessa Sabrina Nessa but also the do you remember the Mumbai bus incident what's that oh that fucked me

I couldn't sleep for days oh my god it really got me what happened there I don't have any hair but it's standing on end you're talking about

that horrific so I went to India in 2016 and I was so scared to bring the conversation back to Ubers I was I was there for a month.

And each time I was there, I was always in a car with someone. And I had to take one trip on my own. And I was sweating. I had never been so scared in my life. And I think people talk about what they're afraid of and people are afraid of death. The thing that I'm most afraid of is getting raped. Yeah. people are afraid of death the thing that I'm most afraid of is getting raped yeah so this whole like whenever I'm out at night it's like just the idea and and I feel so much anger and rage sometimes it's like I can't walk home alone at night I have to get a cab or I have to make sure I'm with

someone like I don't have the luxury of walking home at three o'clock in the morning at night I can't do it no and you have to text everyone tell them where you are and also like i feel like it you know my like my family worried about me so much more than they did my brother like what time you're going to be home even now even now like if i stay at my mom's and i go out for drinks with friends she's like i need to hear that door shut so i know you're here i think also with the way i was raised being south asian and it might not be the same for your for your family the way I was raised being South Asian and it might not be the same for your for your family the way I was raised it's like women should not go my dad and my mum would always

imply you shouldn't be out yeah you shouldn't be out late because this thing could happen to you and it would technically be you would be bringing shame and dishonor on the family it would never be the onus and the blame would never go to the guy who did potentially this horrible thing to me. It would be me coming home with this sense of shame that I brought on myself, which I think still, unfortunately, is rife in some South Asian communities. Yeah, I think like the worry that both my parents had about everything. I remember this one time when I was I think I was like 15, 16. Everything sad happened to me all the trouble stuff happened then because you're so vulnerable and young but I had a job at a chocolate

shop in Spitalfields and it was like like it was an easter job and I was just like you know putting easter eggs on the shelf and one of my colleagues nice colleague was like do you want to go for a drink we're all going for a drink and I was like sure my phone died didn't get to tell my parents I came home late on one of the last trains i was young shouldn't have been drinking should have communicated with them let them know and i walked in and my mum was just like in tears she was like where are you where have you been dad's taking a picture of you to the police station oh my god and this is what we do we catastrophize everything because she hasn't been home in two hours yes yes because also i think that our parents generation yeah like we think about how hostile and scary it is

growing up as a girl when we were growing up. Like for them, it was so much worse. Especially if they come from war or escaping war. Exactly. And they're on high alert. And also they've experienced racism. So it's like, I told you this before, everything in my dad's head is a Final Destination film.

You walk to the cupboard, the cupboard hits you, you die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's even worse when you're going out. And because my parents are so conservative and quite religious, the idea of going out

and something could happen to you. I mean, yes, there's the sexual assault element, but there's also, you could... Anything can happen. Anything, like physical assault. I don't know.

I'm not going to have a kid, right? You have a boy. You're going to raise it like an absolute don, I know. And I know times are changing, but it was certainly I wasn't allowed out the house I literally was not allowed out of the house because of this fear sorry yeah this fear that someone might um sexually assault me but I think I still have the fear like I don't think it's gone I don't think it will ever go I

think being a woman and being alive is part part living in fear like I had it one summer in Marseille when I was staying in France for the summer I was like unemployed in between jobs not really knowing what I was going to do break up blah blah blah and I went I used to take this bus to the beach every day and one day on the way back I was taking the bus and I was like it was so it was really confusing because I was like in a summer dress on this bus and I could feel like something in between my legs but I thought it was like like a pole on the bus and you know when you're like it's a bus it's moving the pole is kind of like pressing into my downstairs and I was like oh it's fine it feels all right and then was like oh my god there is a man and he's like got his hand on his bag and his like hand is like trying to get in between my legs

oh my god it's really strange so I like moved to a different part of the bus and then had another incident like in that same bus with the same guy different guy holding my hand like again holding my hand

on like a pole this time and I had a guy who was wearing a bag like a strap bag that went across his body and he put his hand on the strap bag so the back of his hand

could touch my boob oh my god and I was like is this really happening to me in Marseille what is happening to me yeah France actually like France has a really high rate of of um sexual assault and like like many women

in france believe that they've had like believe god believe it's awful thing to say yeah say that they've experienced some form of sexual assault in the street and you know like what you know sexual assault so like it goes so deep it's not just rape it's like yeah being cackled in the street when you're like don't want that when you don't want someone to touch you or follow you sexual assault is so like it goes so deep it's not just rape it's like being cackled in the street when you're like don't want that when you don't want someone to touch you

or follow you I saw a video the other day of a girl just trying to go home and this guy crossed over the train tracks and she took a video of him being like

go away go away please go away why are you following me please go away and he carried on following her it's mental isn't it they have female only

train carriages in India which is just and Japan yeah and I think I'm very darn following that. It's mental, isn't it? They have female-only train carriages in India, which is just... And Japan. Yeah. And I think in South Korea, as part of the film I was doing for BBC Three, because upskirting,

taking a photo off a woman's skirt is so popular and people do it all the time, they now on phones, when you take a photo, it clicks. So you can tell. Oh yeah, you can't do a silent. Yeah, so you can't do a silent. Good. Yeah. That's really good. But we shouldn't have to do that we shouldn't have to like combat and feel like our body is this like did you ever carry a rape alarm with you when you were growing

up no i didn't i wasn't i wasn't allowed out stayed at home no point in carrying a living one i remember it was like first week at uni wow we all got our freshers bags and all the girls got rape alarms wow because the uni as well when i was married and not living out but like freshers week that is a perfect storm now looking back aren't you like god if you were a predator of any sort those are like exactly the moments in a girl's life yeah you know that's why like every time i'm on the train and i see teenage girls i'm always like looking out for them. Yeah. Or when you see a girl on your own, you're like, where are you? Yeah. Or if you see a drunk girl.

Well, I mean, when you see a really drunk girl at a bus stop and you're like, can I buy you a taxi home? Can I buy you McDonald's? Can I make sure you're OK? I had such an interesting conversation again on that documentary. I was talking to a solicitor and there's this consent app. So this is what we did. We downloaded this app and we we spoke to all these young people would you use this consent app and the about 99.9% of them said absolutely not um and the idea is you upload a photo and then you say I consent to having sex with this person but of course it's absolutely ridiculous because you could do that and then 10 seconds before you're about to have sex change your mind yeah of course during sex absolutely ridiculous because you could do that and then 10 seconds before you're about to have sex change your mind yeah of course but this during sex you

can change your mind exactly during sex and so this lawyer or solicitor she was telling her son because uh conviction rates for um rape and sex well rape particularly are so low um she's like even if it's just on a post-it note i get get my son to write, I blah, blah, blah, consent to having penetrative sex with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you sign it and then it's there. And I'm like, way to kill a boner. The time I was, 2017 is before Me Too, before, you know, consent,

before we were really talking about it. And she's like, you have to. And she deals with, she's a sexual assault lawyer. So this is all the cases she gets. She's like, it's so gray deals with she's a sexual assault lawyer so this is all the cases she gets she's like it's so gray it's so complicated there's so much unsaid you know he looked at me he didn't look at me I mean you look at courtroom scripts of especially when it comes to sexual assault how difficult it is to get a conviction because no one believes in women no one believes in women and it's really hard to get the evidence based to do it that's the tricky thing I mean I think if

you're if you experience sexual assault like i don't think i would have known to go and get a rape kit no i wouldn't even know who to call actually if i'd been raped yeah and if you if you haven't raped there's so much you have to do resource out there now yeah there's something you can actually like capture the dna you can like like there's the support but you have to know to not wash yourself like all of that dark shit that you have to know that I'm picking up from just true crime films

I watch like don't have a shower keep everything on like it's just it's a lot it's a lot it's a lot and then like

you have that thing where you're going to be interviewed by police and they're going to ask you you know how much you were drinking what you're wearing all of that stuff

and it's like knowing that you're going to like prepping for those questions to know that you have a case and like believing yourself. I am now dating as a 38 year old woman. So I'm very much know myself. But I wonder if I wasn't married and had a different life, what dating would have meant for me as a 22 year old or a 23 year old, you know, because I can I'm very firm in what I want and what I don't want.

But if you're a younger girl with an older guy or a guy your age and you're drinking, like, I mean, I'd like to think people, you know, Gen Z talk about consent way more now. It's all over TikTok. Yeah. I don't even know if it's that much about age, though. I think it's like, it's like understanding that when you have sex with somebody, you're both in it for each other's pleasure together on an equal footing. And I think a lot, because so much of sex is about power and power play and that kind of informs everything.

It's like at any age, if you're having sex with somebody and you can be married for 20 years and your husband can still rape you. Like that is still a thing. When I started seeing my current partner now and then Me Too happened, it was really interesting to talk to him

because I said to him like, have you ever had any experiences which felt grey or shady from your perspective? And interestingly, he said he felt like he's had some experience to him. Like somebody grabbing him down there unconsensually, like where he was younger and a bit confused, not really knowing what to do.

What, a woman? A woman. It's really interesting when it happens the other way. We all, well, I shouldn't. And my immediate thought is it feels less than when it's the other way around. Yeah. It shouldn't. It shouldn't. And I'm is it feels less than when it's the other way around yeah it shouldn't it shouldn't and i'm just admitting to you no um but i i've i've had um some um get it might have some of my gay friends to tell me that actually when other gay guys are doing it to them it's what is sexual assault oh yeah of course but like a woman can rape a man yes so and that's absolute fact like of course she can and she can sexually assault oh yeah of course but like a woman can rape a man yes so and that's absolute fact

like of course she can and she can sexually assault him yeah but because i think like i think a lot of a lot of men feel that their behavior is um is different because maybe they're cheeky or they're charming or they're like it's part of their personality but actually like each woman would take it differently like i wonder how many men have really, like, analysed their behaviour. You mean, like, admitted that they've actually done something wrong? Maybe they've... I wonder how many men, if there are any men listening to this episode, sit down and think, was I guilty of sexual assault?

Like, did I do something to a girl in a club and maybe she wasn't happy or on a date? Have you seen that film Promising Young Woman? Yeah. It's always the nice guys, right? I'm Mr. Nice Guy. I wouldn't do that. And for those of you

who haven't seen the film, there's a really kind of big, well, it's a really great film. It's a great film. But there's a good bit where Carrie Mulligan, who plays like the main actress, the protagonist,

who pretends to be really wasted in clubs, really, really drunk and sees who comes on to her and lets the man take her all the way to his room before he's about who comes on to her and lets the man take her all the way to his room before he's about to do stuff to her and she's passed out. And then suddenly she comes to and it's like, I am not drunk. How could you do this to me?

Because that is such a powerful moment in that film where she's like, her acting is superb. She's like, oh, and then she's and they're going in for, you know, they they're about to undress. She passes out on the bed. She passes out and then she wakes up and the camera is on her, it's like a bird's eye view on her face and her eyes go up. It's a bit like, I mean, it's not like a horror film,

but and then she's like, I'm fine. It's a revenge film. It's great. Yeah, it's really good. I love it. I absolutely love it. But I mean, I've definitely like, oh God, I used to drink so much when I was, you know, like late teens, early twenties, up until uni,

like so much alcohol that like I would regularly not remember how I got home or what happened. I mean, that's literally me the other day. And then, yeah, but then you're like, well, you know, how could I possibly know if anything bad or good had happened to me anyway? Because I can't even remember the night. I think because my friends are all my age in our heads I mean okay for instance I'm going to be when I live alone I'm going to be dating and even now

so I've got a flatmate when she's not home I lie to my dates and I always do this thing where I'm like someone is about to come to the house and I'm like if I live alone

I'm going to have to have these lies pretty much ready be like I've got a friend out of town who's visiting they'll probably come in about a couple of hours so they know, I've got a friend out of town who's visiting. They'll probably come in about a couple of hours. So they know. No, you've got to be like, my dad is a police officer.

My dad is head of the Metropolitan Police. If you do anything to me, you're going to prison forever. If you kidnap me, we will find you. That is a stretch. Yeah. Metropolitan Police or what's the FBI that's the UK FBI? Secret Service. Secret Service. MI5. Both that's the UK FBI Secret Service Secret Service MI5

both my parents were in the Secret Service but you need genuine you know believable rules right now I don't care my dad is the top of the Metropolitan it's not believable

no I'm brown he's not going to be the top think about it but I mean right now I don't care because I live with a flatmate so it's fine but when I live on my own

I have to think about these things like how do you protect yourself now you look at my killer cole i may destroy you amazing series she was assaulted yeah yeah and that was a great way to turn kind of sexual assault into art and power and like what can come out of that is also and also like i think that's the other thing it's like you don't like i feel i don't feel like a victim but i've had stuff happen to me but i don't like hold my self as a victim I think it's it's not like I don't carry that into all my relationships yeah but I am like extra like I've been with the same partner for a really long time and if there's any and like we have consensual sex

but it's I know that he could still overpower me he's much bigger than me and they're like even though I've been together with him for eight years the threat of that is still in my head like I'm like you know I need to feel like I'm in control sometimes as well actually so it feels like balanced yeah because I know that can happen well you know when you said that you when you went home and your parents were in bits and your dad took your photo to the police station like you're a parent now parent of an incredible little boy yeah like the things that your parents said does it echo you take that to how you might raise your son in terms of i think how he carries himself or where he is and what he does so many things that

your parents tell you when you're a teenager that you're like ah shut up what do you know you you have a child and everything goes click click click and you're like i get it i get it i completely get it the one thing that you're not gonna i mean i don't know if your parents said what are you wearing but i guess with your little bubs it's only with women we get the what are you wearing and are you asking for it no my mum would always be like

that's very short that's short but you're never going to have it's very unlikely for you to have those types of conversations with boys no but I'm going to have to have even more intense

conversations with him to be like you don't understand how the world favours men yet and when you understand that I need to have and protect the women in your life,

build good relationships with them and make sure that you're giving them opportunities and space and understanding them and be their friends and protect them. Because what I really want is for my child to be that guy who stopped for me. I want my son to be that guy who stops and stands up and says no.

And also like, I think it's tricky isn't it because a lot of this stuff just happens in passing and we ignore it and actually we need to be more vigilant on the dance floor so that the stuff that happens in the bedroom because the dance floor is like the start of the bedroom it's like the foreplay before the bedroom and if on the dance floor you're being

it's a very important act one exactly it like sets the chemistry and tone for the night and if you don't do it right then it's not going to feel right in the bedroom. What I find inherent about British culture

in act one, I mean I was in a club the other day, it's like everyone is in the, standing by the wall. It's like a school disco. Oh God, yeah. And then we get bladdered

and then we feel emboldened to go up to someone and talk. And it's such a part of British culture. Yes. And that has not changed. Like I go to clubs all the time and it's like shit clubs, good clubs, raves. And it's just like, I need to have like 5,000 gin and tonics before I can go speak to her. I know.

That's such a mess, isn't it? It's such a... It's a really... Yeah. But I think it's important to talk about these things because ultimately what we're doing is trying to shed light on this conversation that's normally quite secret and taboo. Especially in our community. I mean, the idea that we talk about, we do talk about everything and we laugh about it.

And I know today's topic is not something to be laughed at. But by talking about it and I guess being a bit silly and a bit funny, we normalise it. And it's the idea that by talking about it, you're giving people permission to be open about something that they're so secretive about or shameful about. And it's really important that we do talk about it because by keeping it secret, that's like a place for them predators to be doing stuff and then thinking you're never going to tell anyone.

Yeah, exactly. But if you're open and you're talking about it and you're asking your friends questions and you're saying, is this normal? And I think that's going to help you have a healthier sex life and approach to sex and your body. Because your body, unfortunately, as a woman, is something that is so like weaponized against you. And it's really important for you to realize that you have some power there. Because I feel like sometimes a bit powerless about my body, you know.

I feel massively powerless about my body. I think actually the one thing when I'm having a word with God and I don't have chats with God often, but I'm like, why the fuck did you make us weaker? Why did you make us physically the weaker gender? Why did you make us the weaker gender? Like, I remember one time and it might have been all in my head, but I was living in like somewhere on the DLR and I was going home and I was married. God, this was a long time ago. and this guy with long hair followed me he followed me home and I fucking pelted I ran and even now when I'm when I'm in places I have these dark thoughts of like you could take you could just completely overwhelm me like you could just come over

I don't think that with all guys, like especially big, strong guys, I would be completely powerless. Oh yeah, I still walk home with the key between the fingers. Oh, it's the key between the fingers. It's weird though, because you do have,

you do have, like you play out this kind of, I don't know, like action film in your head. Yeah. Well, that's why I take up boxing. Because you're like, okay, great.

I could probably hit that person, move that person, do that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I box. Crossing the road at night yeah all of that as a society we never put the onus and the and the blame and the responsibility on men and that's why i love you as a mom because you're going to raise your little bubs and these generation of little bubs hopefully are gonna especially the boys are gonna have that kind of understanding that maybe our generation

and certainly our parents and grandparents generation not all of them you know certainly that guy was your ally the one that helped you like it just I just don't think that's resonating right now yeah I mean we're all each other's allies right like we should all be looking out for each other yeah and also like asking the question are you enjoying this is this okay but no one took but this is the this is so fundamental to this podcast right like the countless guests that we have where we talk about fanny farts and all sorts it's like most of our guests are like you're not having that communicate people are not really talking it's all in the unsaid and the eyes and the gig and sometimes it's like we just need to say do

you want this but also do you know what's really interesting about this podcast is how many moments in your life do you sit with somebody and just talk we're not having coffee we're having a drink yeah we're not we're not we're not in a meeting yeah we're just sitting here and we're talking we're looking at each other and we're just really engaged like it's so rare that we do that now yeah with our friends with our family with our mums like just sitting across from someone and having a chat also when you sit down and chat with guys you're not talking about what you're going to do in the booth well more often than not you're like oh what do you do and then when you drink or you're tipsy and you go back home it's all in your actions no one really well some people might say I might be like I like it this way and I like it that way I'm quite verbal but like a lot of it is in the unsaid

someone will go to so I remember this like when somebody does something physically to me back in the day when I wasn't unsure or I wanted to change it, I'd be like, how about this? And I'd like make a different suggestion. You'd manoeuvre, yeah. Yeah, because if someone was like pulling my hair or trying to put their hands around my neck

or anything that felt like I wasn't up for it, I'd be like, how about this? So boring. It would sound like a weirdo. How about this? But like having like alternatives is like really good when you're like, I don't want to do this, but I do like you.o and I'm like, how about this? It's like a gangster. But having alternatives is really good when you're like,

I don't want to do this but I do like you so can we try this? And then it's like, you get to find your terms when you want somebody to say, yeah, let's give that a go or know about this.

You know, you want some talk. Yes, and I think this is what I'm learning to do about, there's a guy that I see sporadically and he loves spitting in my mouth

and it's funny because I swallow cum but I don't like loves spitting in my mouth and it's funny because I swallow cum but I don't like someone spitting in my mouth I don't know why and he does it and I don't and I

and I take it but I need to the next time we do this it needs to be tie me choke me do all the other things I like

but don't do that and I just why am I not it doesn't make me I'm not do all the other things I like. Don't do that. And I just, why am I not saying? It doesn't make me, I'm not crying in the corner. Yeah, but you're not into it. But I'm not into it. And usually I do say it, but like, when the spit is like midway down, you know, they're like.

No, that's why you need to bring it up sooner. You'd be like, love having sex, you love all that, but not into the mouth spin. Okay, thanks. But that is a really I think that's a good example of things that have happened in coitus

like literally happening as they are happening and then you're you can't stop it because you're like it's happening and then you're like

I didn't like that yeah and that's the issue it's like so what time do you find you know I like and also

a lot of the stuff that I like like when is it fine to say can i just say is it it's fine to say at any time and it is fine to say any time while it's happening after it's happening after three gin and tonics before yeah even on your second date third day if you're like i didn't like that thing that you did it's fine to say at any time yeah because if somebody i'm just thinking about my sexual history if somebody at any point said to me i don't like that don't do that stop in a second

it's also when men speak to other men shit changes and actually that's what you need we need to reframe the locker room talk because it takes one guy to be like that's not cool, that's not funny you know we do that locker room fucking banter misogynist banter I mean I guess times are changing

people are much more aware of a lot of these issues we And we're talking about it, people talking about it. Yeah, and people should know that they can just keep talking about it. And that's kind of what we wanted to do this episode, right? all women across all faiths and races have the same sense of shame. But we we really hide it, don't we? You know, if I could go back to that eight year old Poppy or even like 30 something year old Poppy the other day with the masseuse, it would be you aren't alone and that you should speak out when you're ready to speak out. So I think so often women, we just swallow it. We just swallow our experiences and our trauma like becomes part of our bodies and part of our experiences. And we project whatever happened in this relationship or with this person onto the next. And I think just saying something,

even if it's to a friend or someone you trust, is like the first step in the right direction for not just this woman, but for all of us. I feel like it's obviously really hard to start a conflict of some sort, right? We all just want to be these easy breezy people, very easygoing. And this idea that if something makes you feel uncomfortable, you're suddenly then causing some problem you're never causing a problem the problem is not on your shoulders you are not a problem it is not your

fault it's not like that like if anything in your life makes you feel uncomfortable speak up speak loud speak clear and if you can't do it in that moment and you freeze yeah make sure you have a good support network about you and speak to one person just one person is going to do so much good for you and one person is going to like give you their advice and support you and keeping those good people around you that make you feel like in those situations you can you know like my mom always used to say to me like you can go out clubbing till 3am you can do whatever you want teenage like she was very very liberal about like going out but she was like as long as at the end of the night you and all of your friends

come back and stay in our house and it was that idea that like I had this group that we were quite strong and we all looked out for each other and no person was left behind and that was the rule we could only go out

if we made sure all of us came back at the same time no woman left behind no woman left behind no person left behind look out for each other I think that's it it's like look out

look out for people look up As in left behind, look out for each other. Yeah, I think that's it. It's like, look out. Look out for people. Look up. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you feel impacted by the conversation we just had, there are lots of great resources available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. And if you have any thoughts or questions, you can email us at browngirlsdoittoo at bbc.co.uk. Or you can send us a WhatsApp or voice note to 07968 100 822.

And remember, if you're cutting shapes up in the club and you have no one, you will always have me and Rubina. We are always here for you. Bye. Bye.