BTC Sessions - 12 Bitcoin Charts, One Painfully Obvious Conclusion | Rational Root

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

Mentor Sessions Ep 102: Rational Root breaks down Bitcoin on-chain data, the 2026 cycle bottom, ETF cost basis, the four year cycle and his macro outlook.The Bitcoin bottom looks like it's already in, and the on-chain data says this was the least retail driven cycle in history. Rational Root joins the show with a stack of charts to explain exactly why price held at $60K through the Cold Card hack, the chain split, and the biggest ETF outflows ever recorded.You'll see how the short-term holder cost basis breakout flipped the market bullish, why the ETF cost basis rejected price twice before the breakout, and how the four year spiral chart is behaving at this bottom compared to every prior cycle. You'll learn why Rational Root bought STRC at a 25% discount during the panic, what the digital credit stress test revealed, and why he thinks an all-time high could land before June 2027. You'll also get his candid macro read on AI, ISM manufacturing, interest rates, and the midterm cycle, plus why diminishing returns are likely moving forward even as the cycle keeps chugging along.This is a practical, data-first conversation for holders trying to decide whether to keep stacking or wait for a lower low that may never come.⏱️ Timestamps:0:00 - Intro0:36 - Meet Rational Root and What's Top Of Mind1:27 - Price Action And The Short-Term Holder Cost Basis Breakout3:21 - Why This Bottom Looks Like Every Prior Cycle5:05 - Why We Never Got The Blow-Off Top This Cycle8:19 - The Momentum Indicator And Mild Capitulation Explained9:04 - How Institutional Buyers Dampened The Drawdown11:24 - The Four Year Spiral Chart And Diminishing Returns13:04 - Will The Spiral Chart Eventually Break?18:05 - The ETF Cost Basis And The Second Leg Up20:56 - ETF Inflows, Outflows And The Digital Credit Stress Test22:39 - The On-Chain Value Map And Fair Value25:57 - Buying STRC At A 25% Discount During The Panic28:07 - Cold Card Hack, Chain Split And Price That Wouldn't Break31:22 - How Fast Can The Recovery Come From Here?33:54 - An All-Time High Before June 2027?39:11 - Macro: ISM, The Business Cycle And Midterms45:52 - AI, Fiat And Why Bitcoin Still Matters More52:42 - What Gave Rational Root Pause This Cycle55:04 - How He Actually Feels About Bitcoin Right Now1:00:31 - Where To Find Rational Root's Charts🔗 Links & Resources:→ Follow Rational Root on X: https://x.com/therationalroot→ Rational Root Newsletter & Charts: https://www.bitcoinstrategyplatform.com/🔔 Subscribe for weekly Bitcoin Podcasts🐦 Follow on X: https://x.com/BTCSessions🐦 Follow on X: https://x.com/theBTCmentor⚡Casa MultiSig & Inheritance: https://casa.io/sessions10% Off First Year Promo Code SESSIONS⚡ Sponsored by Trezor - Get Your Safe 7 Today: https://affil.trezor.io/aff_c?offer_id=352&aff_id=1088⚡ POWERED by Abundant Mines: Fully managed Bitcoin mining. Learn more at https://qrco.de/bgYKPB⚡ Sponsored by BITCOIN WELL: Best Place to BUY & SELL BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6💡BOOK Private Sessions with Nathan, Ben and the BTC Mentor Team: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. 👉 Visit btcmentor.io #Bitcoin #BTC #BTCSessions #OnChainAnalysis #BitcoinCycle #FourYearCycle #RationalRoot #BitcoinBottom #BitcoinETF #ShortTermHolder #SpiralChart #BitcoinMacro #DiminishingReturns #BitcoinPrice #BitcoinBullMarket #AllTimeHigh #Bitcoin2027 #BitcoinPrediction

Really looks like the bottom is in. You know, AI with Fiat, it just means that governments get away with a lot of money printing due to all the efficiency increases of AI. Thoughts on basically the diminishing returns thesis. If that means at some point in time, you would expect the spiral chart to break. I mean, it just shows how the four-year cycle is starting to break. What is the new cohort that's just like, I'm ready? I'm holding for the long term.

I'm not changing it. You're not going to scare me out of my position. A lot of value can actually flow into Bitcoin because of the abundance that AI will bring. But how fast can that come? meaning that within practically like the next six months or so, we could maybe see an ultimate high. All right, good morning, Ruth. Thank you for joining me.

Very excited to have this conversation to see what kind of charts and figures you have on hand. So I know that you are neck deep in the Bitcoin data and analysis. So first and foremost, kind of what's top of mind? What has your attention right now? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Really excited for this conversation. And if you have any questions, let me know.

I got some charts lined up, you know, to kind of explain what is going on from my perspective or from an on-chain perspective from a cycle perspective and even a bit of macro. So I'm by no means a macro expert, but I try, you know, it's an important perspective that has a lot of influence on Bitcoin. And so, you know, I do take a deep look at it as well.

So, yeah, we can maybe just jump into the charts when you're ready. Let's do it. Let's get into the charts. Let's see what you brought today. Yeah. So I just thought maybe it's like, like practical to start with price action currently like what's happening. You know, I got here, the Bitcoin price shown from the all-time high, basically the whole bear market. So we make the

bottom. And so we had that breakthrough through that short-term holder cost basis level. I don't know your audience is probably familiar with the short-term holder cost basis or should I even explain that. I don't know how deep I should go. A little bit. Let's give them the quick rundown. So my understanding is the short-term holder cost basis is looking at about a five-month holder. Is that the threshold? Exactly. So it's more of an active holder, and so they are more influenced by current price action.

And so they're mostly the most active coins in the market. And so that's why they're very interesting, especially their entry price, you know, which is also shown here in the chart. As you can see in the bear market, we tend to have a lot of resistance, you know, below just right, that short and older cost base. And it is because, you know, investors get to like break even levels.

So when they're at a loss and they get to break even, they sometimes step out of the market and that pushes Bitcoin down even further. And so that's what we tend to see. And so that breakout above the short-term holder cost spaces was for me really the first bullish sign to like, oh, we're back in a bull market. And so I would like to call this movement even also the, it's really the short-term holder cost spaces breakout. It's this hockey stick here.

And so there was quite a lot of momentum behind that move. And if you think of the four-year cycle, so we were basically four months early, with that move and I'll get a bit deeper into that in some of those dynamics in a bit. But if you looked at the momentum, how we push through that short-term holder cost basis, you know, that was the day I became a bull. Yep. Okay. Okay. Now, it almost looks like it got a little bit retested there too. Is that something else or is that too far off of the short-term cost basis to be of any relevance? Yeah, we actually got resistance here at, you know, the ETF cost basis, which I'll get to in a bit as well.

But maybe first, you know, let's discuss the second chart which I have, which is a bottom comparison. Because so as I said, we were four months early in making that bottom this cycle. And so is this time different, right? And so I have this bottom comparison where I actually aligned the cycle. So all previous bear markets, I aligned them by that bottom. And so we assume that the bottom currently is in. And so I show, again, that short-term roller cost basis with, like, overlaid also the 200-day moving average. And so we can really see how similar that has been in terms of length in previous bear market as well.

Now, historically, we used to have like more blow-off tops. And so, you know, in the past two cycles, we have seen a bit more of a distributed top. And I only look back here one year from that bottom. And so some of these blow-off tops are even slightly higher here. So right, they're not visible now in the chart. But you can see how similar that short-term holder cost basis is in each cycle. which, you know, like, it was just the case with a blow-off top, that price pushes a lot higher above that short-term molar cost basis

and also has, like, this fierce correction. But here, you know, the correction has been milder because we never reached, like, those really over-extreme values above these shorter-tumolar cost bases. And so I think, like, based on this chart, why I like it so much is it really shows how similar the pattern has been, which is each bear market. And also, you know, it makes me conclude, at least,

that it really looks like the bottom is in. Oh, that's fantastic. Do you have any thoughts or interpretations? It was just because we didn't get that major blow off top that why it's a little bit stunted, a little bit shorter in terms of the bear market? Yeah, there are several reasons for that. And some of those are macro-related, like the business cycle, which I have a chart in the end, which maybe can get into as well. Of course, we had a lot of competition from AI for both capital and attention because a lot of capital went to AI. and so, you know, that was a big distractor for Bitcoin this cycle. So those are definitely big ones.

And also, it was really an institutional cycle. So we had more gradual flows into Bitcoin. It was probably the least retail driven cycle so far. And so it was more gradual flows and therefore also a more distributed top. No, that makes sense to me. Do you think it's kind of be the pattern going forward? Like, is your working, hypothesis that we probably won't have the extremes that we've seen in the past?

Yeah, I think with a bigger market gap and more institutional participants, we're going to see more gradual flows generally than, you know, not as extreme blow off tops. But, you know, I don't know what the future will bring. It is true that Bitcoin is digital scarcity, right? And so we could still see like some of those volatile moves at some point. I hope so. And I just think of like all the seller exhaustion and how many people would have been unloading around that 100K, like how that was just an ultimate stretch figure for people. Like that would just the dream that it would one day come and how many probably unloaded around then that I just wonder.

Yeah. Yeah. It was going to have any ammo left. Yeah. That was, I think, another big factor in why we never got like really those severely high prices. We had this, really this psychological 100K level that we had to push through, which people were waiting for for two cycles, right? And so it was natural that we were going to like that we saw a lot of long-term holders

selling around that 100K price. Love it. Is there anything left like I'm looking at the 2026 chart there. The only thing I think that would confirm that maybe we're still in a bare market is if we went below that short term cost, short term holder cost basis again, but I don't think that's necessarily likely. Is there anything that I'm missing? Yeah, no. So indeed. So from this cycle, from this chart, it really looks like the bottom is in. And so we could get, you know, indeed again, below the short-term holder cost basis. That would be a moment of cautious, perhaps. But I think it's more likely to find support on that level because we basically entered like a new regime where you know the short-term holders

are again net in profit and so that's a whole different psychological you know mentality that that traders are going to have moving forward again and so so then that cost basis again becomes an interesting level to to buy more and so that that's at least what we see historically now you know in a way so the bottom came four months early but you know we're actually now almost, you know, we're in October of 2026 recording this. And so this was actually the four-year cycle moment in time to make that bottom. That was, you know, practically this week or next week or so. And so, and we didn't, you know, we're actually high above even the short-term holocaust bases. And and so especially with the momentum that was behind this move, I think, you know, we kind of front-ran

that final moment. And so I have a chart on that momentum actually. So this is actually, so this is actually we look at the short-term holder momentum. And so we can see that we already made like three higher lows during that bear market, which is actually quite common in the bear market to get a bit of like that uptrend. But this is, you know, when we went to, in this positive territory, when the momentum moves above zero is when we got that breakout. And the blue zones that you see here are actually moments of capitalization. So you can also see how mild relatively capitalization was compared to previous bear markets.

And I think some of that is due to institutional demand. I mean, we had treasury companies be a net buyer during this bear market. And basically, they, I think, have had a dampening effect on price as well. And so I think if we would have gotten another leg down, we probably would have had more severe capitalization. That would have also been more blue zones. But we never got that this cycle. And I think it has to do with the institutional nature of this cycle. With the institutional nature, sorry, does it cut?

both ways in the sense that like it dampened maybe the drawdown because we had them here as kind of an additional bit, but would you anticipate them to dampen it on the upside as well too? Not necessarily. Yeah, I mean, indeed that it's more distributed because, you know, they're less affected by price action. They're just like more of a gradual buyer. And we can see that, for example, with strategy, right? They like, I just buy on a weekly basis. And so they're not really, it doesn't really matter even which price it is.

And so many of these, and also based on 13F filings, and all of the 13F filings that came through, like big institutional players, we saw just gradual buying from big players, like basically unaffected by the bear market, or not severely affected by the bear market at least. And so I think, you know, we will just see more gradual uptrend. It doesn't mean we can reach high prices eventually.

I think it's just slightly less volatile. No, I love it. And for someone who's not familiar, because I'm not even sure how it's broken down myself, the momentum indicator, what exactly is it that we're comparing or looking at to kind of gauge what direction it's heading? What is momentum actually measuring? The momentum is basically the change, so the first derivative of the shorter molar cost spaces. So we see the short of molar cost spaces here. So when that starts moving down, the indicator also moves below zero, right? And so when it moves up, so it moves close.

So it becomes like zero is basically flat. It's right at the short of, molar cost basis. And so we're looking at the change in the short-term holder cost basis. And that kind of predicts where we're heading. And so we're still in that up trend now. I love it. I never thought I'd actually use calculus for my job. So this is quite interesting. So we basically have like the velocity, the rate of change of the short-term holder cost basis, the first derivative there. Are you ever looking at the second derivative, essentially the acceleration, the rate of change of the rate of change? Yeah, you can. You can. But I think, you know, most information is in even just in this first derivative.

I love it. Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah. So maybe to get to a bit of like a bigger overview, so you're probably familiar with the spiral chart, but we're looking here at the four-year spiral. And this one is color-coded basically in that short-term holder cost basis derivative.

So it's a short-term holder cost basis C-score. It's basically like how far does price deviate away from that short-term holder cost? spaces. And so what we're looking at here, so here we can clearly see how we moved in to that bear market with these dark red colors. And so we practically made that bottom early, right? June of 2026. And so one quarter, one quadrant in this spiral represents a year. And so we made that bottom here in June of 2026, you know, slightly early in terms of the four-year cycle, which, you know, you know, if we would have made it now, because you can see this was basically January of 2015, then we had December of 2018, and this was November of 2022.

And so it would have been kind of October of this year, like the expected bottom for Bitcoin. Now, but if you look at the coloring, and so you see, I marked those, that current bottom here. And so we started moving already in those green levels. And so this looks very similar in coloring, like to previous. bottoms moving out of that bear market. No, I love it. I'm curious. I want to pause on this one for a second, too, because I love the spiral chart. And it's amazing to me that it's still holding up, right? Like all models work until they necessarily don't. And I'm looking back at the kind of what I almost call like the compression

in the lines from 2025 and 2026. And I'm wondering your thoughts on basically the diminishing returns thesis. If that one has any weight for you, what your considerations for it are, and if that means at some point in time you would expect the spiral chart to break. Yeah, I do think it will break eventually. I do think diminishing turns are returns are likely moving forward. And it's just because we get a bigger market cap. And so, I mean, Bitcoin is digital scarcity.

And so it could move the other way and have a whole theory about that, you know, around the huddle model where, you know, at some point we're going to, you know, be past a stage where, you know, again, Bitcoin is starting to become more scarce. And so, you know, price could again become more volatile. But so far we haven't seen any of that and anything. of that. And so I know it's much more likely and also thinking of the power law structure, it's much more likely that we'll see diminishing returns into the future. So yeah,

and eventually, I mean, and so the spiral chart, by the way, is not a model, right? It's just a perspective on the four-year cycle. And so, yeah, I wouldn't even call, like, if the lines start crossing, does it really break? I mean, it just shows how the four-year cycle is starting to break. but I think we can already see some of those dynamics. We now have that bottom early, for example, unless we make a bottom in the next couple of months, which is still, there is this slight possibility, right? We still have the midterms coming up,

and, you know, maybe we got a stock market crash and it could get Bitcoin down and we make that final bottom. But I think it's unlikely for how the things look now. If I look at the business cycle and some of those metrics, I have in a later chart, but, you know, I think, you know, the market can keep on going much longer still. And so I don't expect that to happen.

But that means indeed so that this is the first time that we're actually have a significant event, or maybe not the first time. And we also had an all-time high before the halving already, which was a bit of a difference. Though that was like you could clearly point to like the ETF approval as the catalyst. You know, the same for, for example, the COVID crash. Here we went to heavy under value levels right before that happened.

having that was the cycle before that. And so there are some outliers, slight outliers, and this is a bit of an outlier as well, right? We have a bottom slightly early. You know, maybe the recovery will just be slow and, you know, everything moves in line again. But we could also slowly deviate away a bit. And I think we were already pretty close to these lines crossing.

They never did. And this is because we have that four-year pattern, right? So, you know, typically we have here the most expansionary phase in that first quadrant. Now we have a bear market and they're still pretty much aligned. But, you know, if the cycle top would be here and we start moving in a bear market in the next cycle, you know, it's possibly that we break. But I don't think we will break in the next, you know, three years basically or two years at least, which is, you know, half the rotation. No, I can't happen to agree. There's like a few things that jump out of me.

One is just like the power of memes as well. Like I wonder how much of investor psychology. the four-year cycle is just so rude. It's been around for so long. It's so well known and kind of observed when we think it's going to break every single time that I wonder if the expectation that it will hold kind of keeps things chugging along. And I fully expect, like if you remember the, I think it was the 2020 election where it had that like famous little chart of the Democratic vote count and just kind of rocket it up at one point in time because of the on-demand ability to basically take custody of it, basically having kind of redemption is the sort of thing. And the absolute scarcity of Bitcoin. I fully expect this thing to keep just chugging along and have like a little moment where it just kind of levels up a line. I don't think I would be surprised if this actually breaks in the next four years, six years. I feel like it will, I still think Bitcoin will have those volatile moments in the future. Maybe just optimistic, wishful thinking, but I think we'll see it create a little space between the lines. Yeah, no, it will. But what I was trying to say,

so we come from a bottom here. And so we're starting to move up. And so it's likely that, you know, the lines won't really cross. But if we start dropping here and we get like a 50% drop like, you know, slightly early because we're now four months early. So if you get the next cycle peak, for example, around, I don't know, this area, like it, you know, which would be 29, you know, like, so if we get, you know, the cycle peak there and then we start dropping, you know, that, that, you know, maybe the lines will start crossing. And so that, you know, I think many would consider, oh, the spiral chart is broken,

But I don't think it's really broken. It's just a representation of what's going on, right? No, I absolutely love it. It's funny. We always, you know, we think a black swan event, so maybe there's something like wick down that cuts through at some point in time. But you always go the other way as well. I'm not saying it will necessarily,

but like we have a black swan event that results in like a quick wick down or a quick crash. You could have a black swan event sometime in the coming years that pushes it up really high really fast too. So all fun to watch and observe as we go forward. Exactly. Now maybe let's get back to price action. And so we kind of determined that it's fairly likely that the bottom is in now. And we looked at that short-term holder cost bases. And so basically that first hockey stick up is, you know, the breakthrough that short-term holder cost base.

Now, we had a bit of consolidation here. And then we had that second leg up. So that second hockey stick. And that was basically the ETF cost bases. So the ETFs, you know, ETFs have been one of the main drivers as well of this cycle. You know, the ETF approval was even that catalyst, that cost. Altum High, you know, early on before the having, which was, you know, a bitch of an anomaly in the history of Bitcoin, an anomaly, I should say, sorry. And so we, we now had,

we two times we, we rejected off that ETF cost basis and then we pushed through. And so I was looking at this as well. And so the ETF cost base is a very important one, especially this cycle, because, you know, ETF have been such an important driver of this bull market and also a bit, and we saw even a bit of inflows in the bear market as well. Bitcoin Well, you know them, you love them, long-time supporter of the channel, and one of the easiest places to buy Bitcoin directly to your wallet in the U.S. and Canada, but that's not all they do. So for anyone looking to make a big purchase, there is Bitcoin Well Infinite.

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data on what the flows in and out have been like as a percentage of ETF holdings perhaps over the last bear market. Then total, like, on-chain flows, you mean? Just basically inflows and outflows of ETF. So how is it held up during the bear market? Yeah, so we have seen some outflows, especially during the digital credit stress test that we've had. So during that, that bottoming phase, which is here, that is the moment when we saw the most

ETF outflows in the history of ETAFs. But in general, we have seen more inflows, much more. more inflows than outflows. Obviously, like during the bear market, we, you know, there were days with inflows and outflows, so it was a bit mixed. But, and in the bull market, there were much more inflows. But I think the moment, the most critical moment was during that digital credit stress test here that actually cost the bottom, where we saw a lot of outflows, especially from BlackRock. But since then, we've been recovering, actually, and for the last months, we have seen substantial inflows again from ETFs.

to the point even now that net ETF buyers are again in profit. I love it. Would you want to see that level retested for kind of confirmation that it's over or no, not necessary? Yeah, I think, I mean, the speed which we're moving up is quite fast. And so I think it would be normal to see some consolidation. And I have another chart on that in a bit as well. But yeah, I think it would be very normal if we would retest that cost.

basis one more time before, or even two more times before we push true. Although momentum has been strong. And as you see, like we saw earlier in the momentum chart, momentum hasn't really slowed down much. And so we could break to the next level. And that is actually what I would like to call fair value. So I have a model, a value map based on on-chain data, which kind of, I look at a bottom indicator, like one of the better bottom indicators for Bitcoin, one of the, you know, custom-made top indicators for Bitcoin. And then I look at, you know, the average of those, which, you know,

creates that fair value level. And that's the level we're currently at. And so we, we pushed against that level and we kind of, you know, we're working our way through that. And so maybe we can discuss a bit what that means because, you know, maybe that's a bit confusing. So this is the on-chain value map. And so basically what we look at, these are the bands. It's a bit similar in a way to like a rainbow chart, but this is based on on-chain data. It also doesn't predict really future, not really a future outlook. It just shows like how over or undervalued Bitcoin is based on-chain data. So what on-chain data I do, I use, I actually, you know, there's a different indicator that I use for the bottom and for the tops. But for the tops, I basically look at actively tradable

supply and I look at capital inflows. And so those two on-chain indicators determine that top level. And at that bottom level is actually one of the earlier variants of Willie Wu, where it's a CVDD, it's coin value days destroyed, where we look at how many coins actively come in the market. And so this is an on-chain bottom indicator that's been around for a long time, but it has done an excellent job of predicting all these bottoms far out into the future. I don't know when the first one Willie Woo came up with it, but it's been around a long time. And so basically those two give us the opportunity to make these bands.

And so that fair level is that green dotted line. That is the middle of these two. And then we have these other bands in between. And so what we can see is how price moves, within these levels. So each bull market, we get to those highly overvalued levels. And then we move again to heavy undervalued

in that bear market. And so currently we're pushing through that fair value level. And interestingly, also this bear market, we didn't reach the heavy undervalue level. So that was a bit of a difference this time. And I think there's several reasons for that. And I think that's also a reason why

some were still expecting like another, down, right, like now towards October of this year, and that didn't happen. And I never ruled it out, to be fair. I was kind of neutral until we pushed through that short-term holder cost basis with that breakout that we just showed in the beginning of this

podcast. But yeah, we never reached those heavy undervalue levels. And some of the reasons are it is that we saw a lot of demand during that bear market and, you know, to look at you know, again, institutions like in particular here,

we look at digital credit like STRC from strategy. So here in this chart, I show again the, you know, from the ultimate high to the bottom Bitcoin's price. And we also see the price of stretch, you know. And so when stretch is at par value, like $100, strategy is actually able to purchase, you know, Bitcoin. And so that so those green zones are actually the moments in time, when STRC is close to power value and when strategy has the opportunity practically to buy Bitcoin.

And so interestingly, during like a big part of that bear market, we have seen a lot of that is highlighted green, right? And so there was a lot of purchases from a treasure compass, which we also saw by the flows. And so except for like really that digital credit stress test, as I would call it, where, you know, the doomers were all going to say like, oh, treasure companies are a horrible idea and, you know, they're going to fail big time.

And so, yeah, I predicted that it would move back to par and I actually bought some stretch here. And I'm, I mean, I'm not a, I mean, I'm a Bitcoin maximalism in general. And I rather hold, you know, Bitcoin in self-gustody, but this was also just like, okay, this is an opportunity to buy stretch at like a 25% discount, you know, that seemed like an okay deal. And so, but that to me also looked like the fear that we had in the market, I already thought like, okay, this is really like a potential bottom for Bitcoin, though it came slightly early, right, in the cycle. And so I was still skeptical until that move here. But I've been saying to my followers that this was a likely candidate for the bare market bottom. I think I even had a podcast show around that area where I even mentioned this. But not that I can predict. everything, you know, like I'm bad at predicting. You know, I think Onshin is very good at looking what's currently going on. And so it was clear to me the amounts of fear that were in the market that it looked similar to like a bottom of previous cycles. But of course, no one can

be sure ever. Well, I just find fascinating looking at that chart just puts it kind of on full display is like how fast and how hard stretch it was drew down to those lows there and how Bitcoin didn't really seem to give too much of a shit. It was just hanging out at 60K or I think around there. And it really was, like, I wonder if it was just an example of seller exhaustion, specifically in the Bitcoin on-chain, the actual underlying. Exactly. No, no. Bitcoin's price held up fairly well, which was actually, you know, broad confidence that, you know, potentially, like the bottom is in. And I think, like, that is something I've mentioned as well. We then had the cold card hack. We've had the liquid hack.

We've had the chain split. And all of these happened here. You know, after the bottom. And, you know, Bitcoin's price was just gradually moving up. And that was also reason to me like, hey, we have now had several catalyst, potential catalysts that could have pushed price down further. And it didn't. You know, and so that to me gave me more confidence like, okay, like a potential bottom, you know, could have been made already. And so, and then we got, you know, that breakout, which I didn't expect, like, to break out as fast. And as with the strength that we saw, I thought it was going to take more time, slightly more time. But I was waiting for that breakout, but not in the strength that we saw.

Do you have any candidates for potential catalyst of what spurred that breakout in particular? I know ever there being a whole bunch of leverage liquidations, but I don't know if that necessarily... There were some short... There were definitely short liquidations happening that, you know, added to that move. But it was not... I think Bitcoin was just ready to have... the end of the bear market. We were just kind of waiting for that moment

because we had these catalyst. Price was not, you know, moving down further. And so we just kept on being up until, you know, we saw some short liquidations and then everyone suddenly jumped bullish. I love it. I'm actually kind of curious. And you might not have this data, so I apologize, I've been putting on the spot for things

that you didn't necessarily prefer when he had so much already here. Over the course of the bear market, if we say that the bear market's done, we're bull market territory. We're good to go now. Do you have any even rough estimates of how many coins changed hands. I'm looking again, focusing on that area

where there was so much that went so wrong and Bitcoin didn't move, which I'm thinking about like, okay, how, what is the new cohort that's just like, I'm ready? Like, I'm not, I'm holding for the long term. I'm not changing it. You're not going to scare me out of my position. So there was a bit of like, you know,

changing of hands, especially because of the gold card hack. You know, we saw some, you know, people protecting their coins. And so we had some more flows than usual. But overall, yeah, overall, I mean, we've had substantial, like, significant change of long-term holder coins and especially around that 100K price. But during that whole bull market, we have reached levels of changing hands similar to previous cycles. So in terms of like, and in Bitcoin terms, right? So in Bitcoin terms, an equal amount of coins moved in this entire cycle that it did to previous cycles, which shows, you know, that indeed, like,

you know, substantial coins moved for this bear market to end as well. So the next chart, you know, so we kind of, you know, concluded it's very likely that the bottom is in. And so here, so we look at the Bitcoin cycles and then a comparison from the cycle bottom. And this is kind of to, you know, estimate like, okay, how fast, because we're now in this recovery trajectory, you know, on our way to that new ultim high, but how fast can that come, right? And so with this chart, that gives some idea. So I think we moved fairly strong currently up. And we could continue that trend.

You know, like we did. For example, this is the 2018 cycle, the yellow one. This is actually at a rally of 2018, 2019 here. And this was based on plus token. There was also, you know, high demand for plus token, like a Chinese scam in the end, which, you know, turned back. and then we got another correction. And so in a way, you can see that, you know,

a general recovery takes time to unfold. So the trend is up, likely. And we'll see some corrections on the way, obviously. But if we move too fast, it's likely that we'll get a correction later on. And so I think it's better to move, you know, gradually and have some consolidation. You know, if we get that next leg up already here, that would put us, like, you know, on a pretty speedy recovery, which, you know, maybe is not sustainable. in the end if you look at previous cycles.

Now, a difference this time is that, you know, because we had such a distributed top, the ultim high level is fairly close, you know, like the ultim highs of previous cycles, we had the ETFI here, so that horizontal line would be, you know, here for that orange line. And then the other ultim highs are mainly here in the end,

you know, because basically, you know, when making a bottom, we get like it historically, like in the four-year cycle, you get like this three-year up trend, with the last part of that, you know, the last year practically of that cycle is the most expansionary phase with, you know, most of the ultimatize. You can see all those dark dots there. So this was a bit of an outlier that ETF high, which was clearly pointed to like a catalyst,

but it looks like, you know, because we've had such a distributed top around that 100K level, which we're now, you know, going to work our way towards again, you know, I think, you know, Instead of like taking two years to reach an ultam high, we're likely to do it within the year of the cycle bottom, and we're already a couple months in. So, you know, meaning that within practically like the next six months or so, we could maybe see an ultim high. I completely think that's more than reasonable.

I mean, it was even just talking with Joe Jeff and Hoddle the other day. I, like, it seems like we're not, we're so far, something I think of what I've phrased this. we're so close in terms of a percentage that creating a new all-time high just seems well within the bounds of Bitcoin, even this year. In the sense, I think we're like 30% away from the all-time high. I think we're less than 20% away from 100K. And I can't help but think that like, especially post-mid terms or something, we get above 100K and we get a little bit of even like retail excitement again. It starts getting attention again.

People start talking about it again. It seems very reasonable to have a new all-time high in six months. Yeah. Yeah. So I think so like here practically as fast. it could be in two months, but then we're already very close to the end of the year. And you can see that we should then follow the trajectory similar to, for example, that 2018 rally that we saw, which was based on a lot of demand from Plus Token, which was kind of unsustainable then.

And so we could see that, but, you know, that would be fast, in my opinion. More likely would be to take slightly longer and to have a bit more gradual uptrend. Because I still think, you know, even so if the bull market continues as well for, you know, maybe looking at macro, if the stock market continues as well to move up, I think we'll still continue to have some of that competition from AI. And maybe at some point, you know, AI becomes so valued that, you know, maybe some capital starts flowing into Bitcoin again. But until that day, you know, I think it's more likely that Bitcoin will suffer a bit,

you know, in terms of capital, you know. And so I think, therefore, it's more reasonable to assume that we'll move up more gradual. And so this year is on the very optimistic side, based on this chart, as you can see. And so I think it's more likely for it to happen in either Q1 or Q2 of next year. But before June, which is the end of that blue zone here, you know, we should practically be in an all-time high. It's fascinating.

I find it so interesting that they, like, the previous charts, the previous graphs seem to all converge around the one-year mark and around the two-year mark as well. like they seem to almost have like a pinch point that I'm looking at in the charts. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and so here you can see we had this, I just explained,

this was plus token and we had a consolidation. Here we had the ETF, you know, we went up a bit high. This was the corona crash, actually, that yellow line down. So we had a bit of a crash, but then we corrected again. And so in the end, indeed,

we line up again, which is interesting. So the speed of recovery, which is what I was saying, like two years, the first two years after the bottom are basically like, you know, you can draw a straight line like through this chart, and that is just the trajectory at which the recovery usually happens. And that's why I also expect to have that similar trajectory, where the third year is more of the expansionary phase,

where, you know, Bitcoin reaches like, you know, on Altam High, basically like uncharted territory, which you can literally see here, where, you know, we go a bit of all over the place. And obviously in early cycles, we went like, extremely high. You know, I don't think we'll reach those high levels. It's more likely that we'll finish somewhere like below this yellow line in the end. And perhaps now that can move back a little bit because we already start making

ultim highs likely here this time around. And so there are some changes happening to the cycles. No, I love it. Yeah, I was thinking of that too. It's a third year. So third year expectations that will probably be below the previous years. Yeah. Yeah, I would expect.

So, I mean, and people get very bullish and say like, okay, you know, I don't know, they call extremely high prices, but I think it's unlikely to reach those substantially high prices. It's more likely to, I mean, we can be significantly well above 100K, you know, and maybe even reach 200, but I still think 200K is a fairly high level for Bitcoin and especially institutional players are also going to be, you know, maybe taking some profit at some points. And I don't know. So I think the movement will be more gradual. No, fair enough. I think you had it highlighted there was like 80. three or something in terms of the ETF cost basis. And so I'd have to imagine that, particularly even for

the ETF, like, I'm trying to think about a traditional, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a traditional investor and be like, if you got a 2x, is that sufficient for them to want to take some chips off the table? Exactly. And that's why I also think, you know, given we have to conquer a whole Fiat system, you know, there's a lot of traditional investors that are going to have to come to Bitcoin and they come through Bitcoin through these institutional players as well. And so, you know, but the mindset is different. You know, the conviction level is different. You know, we're going to see fixed income capital get into Bitcoin through, you know,

things like digital credit. And so there's all kinds of, you know, gateways into Bitcoin. But, you know, it's just, you know, a bit of a different mindset for the investor type. No, I completely agree. I'm just even playing it out in my head. If we hit like 240 and they got a 3x on there, I imagine that a lot of them at that point in time would become sellers. Yeah, yeah.

I do think so too. Yeah, and so I mean, we can maybe get still a little bit into macro and by no means a macro expert, but I do think it's important for Bitcoin. You know, so here I show, you know, the business cycle and the midterms elections, which, you know, because they're coming up so soon. But, yeah, and here I highlight those areas. So those blue zones here are when the business cycle is below 50, which is usually like a considered a contractuary period.

And so interestingly, during that entire bull market that we've had, we've had this contractionary period, right? And this is a bit of the aftermath of COVID. You know, we had COVID here. You know, things started turning around. And so we've had a bit of like a long bear market or contractionary period in terms of the business cycle. And so that is maybe also some of the reasons why we never reached, you know, it might

have been a contributing factor to that we. never reached those highly overvalued levels for Bitcoin. And so we recently moved out of that during the bear market, actually. We moved out of that. And so we're now, you know, in an up trend. And so, you know, as we concluded already before, so I do think the bottom is in. But basically, we have two options. Like, you know, the business cycle could start to roll over again, which historically, you know, happened, you know, after those midterms. And so this time here we, it a bit early, but it was with COVID. We had COVID, and so there was, like, again,

we can point to, like, the contacts that, you know, why it turned over earlier. But, you know, here we're moving up, and we were actually moving up slightly late this time, so we could move maybe higher. And I think, you know, we just had a rate hike, but I think stocks can, or at least the market can still handle those higher rates, especially when it comes to AI.

I think AI investment keeps, you know, being strong. And so even though we have high rates, you know, that bull trend could continue. But yeah, it will be interesting to see. If we start to roll over,

that could also mean that we maybe see another, you know, maybe slightly more stronger correction for Bitcoin or slower move up, you know, and thinking of like, you know, how fast, let's go back to that bottom chart.

Like, how fast can we move up, you know, like, okay, do we continue in a fierce bull market? Okay, you know, this is maybe the fastest we can go. But if the business environment or the business cycle starts to roll over and the macro setting is start to deteriorate, you know, maybe we have that slower recovery. But I do think eventually we will recover to the level that we're supposed to. And so depending on macro, how things unfold, we

either get that fast recovery or a slow recovery. Very interesting. And for the business cycle there, was that just, was that ISM PMI? Yeah, this is the ISM PMI. Yeah, this is the ISM PMI. for anyone that's not familiar, could you give me a little bit of breakdown of what it's essentially giving us in terms of information? Yeah, it's the manufacturing. So it looks at orders,

like how many orders are there in the market and so how many manufacturing is going on? And so when we see orders decline, you know, in a way, it's again, the rate of change of those orders. And so the business cycle starts to decline. And that shows there's less demand in the macro landscape.

And that has an effect as well on Bitcoin. The number of people that I talk to that haven't taken Bitcoin off the exchange is honestly quite frightening. And those that do, a lot of them by one device, get it set up and never look at it again. Their security ends up becoming a snapshot of whatever the hell they knew that day. Bitcoin is not a sedative and forget an asset. Hoddling is an active process.

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Scan the QR code on the screen or click the link in the description down below. Unless for some reason you think they're about to stop printing and stop borrowing, you know exactly where Bitcoin is going. And whether your stack is already at the size where you know you should do something about it or it's headed there, it's time your security caught up. That's why you need CASA premium. Your Bitcoin secured across five keys, three on hardware from different vendors, one on your phone and one held by CASA.

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Well, Soverecovery means that you can always rebuild using open-source tools like Sparrow. And as for your family, CASA inheritance means you're not leaving them a locked box with no key. You invite them with an email, and their key lies dormant while you're still alive. And should that day ever come, you don't have to worry about them having to figure it out when you're not around to ask. You've already taken care of it. So head to casa.io slash sessions promo code sessions to receive 10% off your first year. That's cossa. I.0 slash sessions code sessions. Click the link in the description down below or scan the QR code on the screen. Well, it's very fascinating looking at the last few years and comparing it with the ISM numbers because I never thought of actually looking at that my my kind of loose interpretation was that retail didn't really show up and retail didn't really show up because there were other more interesting things

and I suspect a lot of people kind of got burned in the FTX moment in the prior cycle as well that maybe they didn't want to come and touch the stove for a second time. But even just looking at this, it's like there's a much simpler explanation is that retail didn't show up because they don't have any excess cash to maybe invest or try and learn about Bitcoin. Yeah, so I think it was definitely a contributing factor. And so, yeah, in a way, we have a lot of contributing factors. We had that distraction from AI.

we've had that contractionary period for the business cycle. We saw institutional capital instead of retail, and we got that 100thage psychological level, which we've been waiting for for two cycles or so. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of reason why we never got those extremely high prices during this cycle peak. Now that makes sense. I'm curious, you're just like broad overview of,

we'll say specifically the U.S. economy from the macro lens of where you kind of think that things are headed, how things like AI and even interest rates right now on the Treasury market are going to impact it. Because I can kind of go both ways. Like, I can make the case that AI is outrageously over leveraged in a bubble and it's going to drag everything down. I can make a case that it is going to have major productivity gains. And so it's going to be a boom moving forward. I can take a look at the interest rates and I can go, okay, interest rates are going higher because it's perceived risk in the market

or they're going higher because it's perceived growth. I can actually, I think I can stand on either side and have no idea which way it's going to go. Yeah, I think it's very difficult to, like, have a good read on the macro because, you know, so many things are happening. You know, we have inflationary wars, like, you know, basically like many energy inflation. And so that, you know, so we just got a rate hike. And so rates are up. But I actually also think we have significant growth and especially from AI. And we can all see it around this, right?

AI is like improving our lives or making our life so much more efficient, like, you know, designs and all these things that used to take like, you know, hours and you had to hire, like a company you can do now in minutes, you know, like it's just, it's so easy. It's has become so easy. And we can see it. I mean, how is how much is social media changing due to AI with all these videos? And, you know, like, yeah. So I think, you know, the reason the economy is is up is because AI is creating all these

efficiencies. and so, you know, companies are able to have, you know, less people and they can fire people. And so, so, I mean, I think retail is getting hit a little bit by it and we can all feel it kind of, you know, intuitively that it's going to, you know, we fear of our jobs. But we also feel like, oh, AI can do so we can do so much more with AI. And so I love that meme where, you know, it's, it's, it's. that is about AI where, you know, AI is coming for our jobs. And then it's like one with the sunglasses and one with like the sad look.

Like AI is going to, but AI is also going to allow me to change how fast I can work, right, and improve my lives. And so, so yeah, I think AI, there's so much investments in AI and it continues to happen that even at these high rates, you know, I think like the expectant returns from AI are still high, even higher. And so I think that bull market could continue for a lot longer. And so maybe at least six months or so. So I do think that fast recovery path, which we discussed, is definitely possible.

It's in the carts. But I do think at some point also maybe it will start to roll over, right? Rates will be too high. We have too much energy inflation. Maybe the war will end by then and, you know, things start to change again. But yeah, eventually, you know, the business cycle will roll over again. And we can see that, you know, in this historical chart. You know, usually around the midterms, it historically used to roll over.

And Bitcoin also many times bottomed early, right? And that's what we've seen here. And I've shared this on Twitter as well. I said, okay, like this very much looks like a bottom from, and this is the Bitcoin eras. So I look at a yearly erasai for Bitcoin and the S&P 500. and that's overlaid with the business cycle as well. And then I show the midterms here. And so we're again bottoming, you know, around that midterm area.

And, you know, what will be interesting to watch is if the ISM and also the SMP, the SMP, the S&P will start to roll over. Like if we make an higher high here also in terms of the RSI for the SMP, that would be bullish. That could extend, you know, that movement, a lot further. No, that would also mean like a more speedy recovery for Bitcoin. But if this starts to roll over, you know, maybe that recovery will be slightly slower, which we maybe, you know, something similar to here. I'm very optimistic about U.S. manufacturing. It'd be nice to

continue to continue to run up here and then hopefully drag Bitcoin along with it. For anyone who's not familiar too, because we talk about the RSI, the relative strength index, what exactly is that measuring just so they can get a good sense of what they're looking at here in the chart? Yeah. So instead of like, you know, in on-church, chain data we have like you know a lot of inputs like we can look at the age of coins but in in technical analysis you know we only basically have price and volume and so there are many you know indicators based on just price so the rzai is you know we actually look at the strength of price you know in a way like it's a it's a bit similar to looking at the the first derivative again you know of price like okay how

how fast is price accelerating or and you can look at different time frames and that's why also with the RSI here. I look at a yearly RSI, which gives you a bit more of like a zoomed-out version of what's going on, right? But you can also look at a weekly RSI, for example, depending on what time to frame. Also, you're either trading or looking at or, you know, want to get the information. But, but, you know, we, of course, because, you know, macro doesn't have any on-chain data, we cannot compare, you know, the shorter motor cost basis of the SMP, for example. doesn't exist, right? And so we can only use traditional indicators, which obviously also can be used on Bitcoin to compare to, for example, the SMP, which is what we're doing here.

Love it. Do you have any thoughts on why the midterms at least have a correlation, where we have this midterm cycle? My immediate instinct is that this might just be the result of just like fiscal dominance. There's so much spending going into the midterms, usually the incumbents lose seats in the midterms and they can't get anything pushed through in terms of government spending on the other side. Yeah, exactly. And then you, yeah, you get like a bearish outlook. After that, there was a lot of spending up front.

And, yeah, that's what historically has happened many times. But we have not always moved in this four-year period because here, like, interestingly, and we talked about the four-year cycle, but also in the macro landscape, we had that four-year, you know, cyclical behavior, which is, again, also based a bit on presidential terms in general. But we have not always, you know, had, if you use, zoom out even further, you can also see more of less an eight-year cycle or so. So something like that could happen as well again in the future. And maybe it's currently even happening because you know, Trump wants to keep markets up at all costs, you know, ideally. And so, yeah, I don't

know how this will play out. No, I love it. Over the last like, we'll say year or so or even in this moment right now, because you've been looking at this data in detail for quite a lot of. long time. Is there anything that has caused you to pause, give you some concern, was unexpected? Is there anything there that kind of, I don't know, shook you a little bit? I mean, what shook me in general is that, you know, because Bitcoin was fairly correlated to the S&P that we had this, you know, four-year cycle bear market entirely while the S&P capped in the bull market, you know, that was rather painful. And partly due to AI, but also maybe just that four-year cycle behavior, which had a lot of influence in Bitcoin apparently.

And so that was a bit of a change. But I mean, not, we have seen it in the past happen as well. But you would expect, especially considering we had so much institutional players getting involved that we would have continued to follow the S&P more closely, but we didn't. You know, I think that was the major, like, change this time around. Have you ever taken a look at it compared to like S&P at equal weighting or any of the other indices. I'm wondering if the S&P is being dragged up so heavily by AI and tech that it's kind of actually distorting what the broader equities is doing. Yeah. So yeah, if you look at like internet

services or things like that, Bitcoin has been more strongly correlated to those type of things. I haven't looked at the equal weighted. For this one, I haven't. But I do believe truly that AI has had a huge effect on keeping stocks up. No, completely agree, completely agree. Okay, so it's interesting to see. So hopefully, well, maybe we can get it back on track or if we're going to diverge, maybe S&P could go down and they can go up.

That would be all right. I'd be okay with that. Yeah. What I think is most important is that, you know, we really can see that we made like a bottom very similar to previous cycles. And so, so, you know, from an investor perspective, this is an amazing entry, right? Like, you know, it's very likely to get like a bull market again.

I love it. Let's jumping out of the, the, what I called, the wonderfully logical, reasoned, autistic viewpoint of everything that we're looking at, how do you actually feel about Bitcoin right now? Again, like, there's got to be a ton of stuff running around and you're subconscious from staring at this stuff all the time emotionally. How are you feeling about where we're at right now? Yeah, no, I'm confident. I mean, Bitcoin to me is very interesting. I, you know, maybe the, as I said, like, AI has been such a distraction, even to the point that within Bitcoin, you know, we see influence.

influencers like talk a lot about AI, you know, partly AI, partly Bitcoin and so forth, you know, so we can see how much it has changed our lives and has affected us. And so, so I think it's a, it's a bit of a pity because, you know, Bitcoin is so important, like, you know, for a better society and, but, but I, you know, looking more from the data side, you know, Bitcoin looks super attractive to get in and, you know, power law is intact. Like everything, you know, everything looks actually good into the future. And so we're undervalued still. And so, yeah, there's so much potential for it.

So I'm very optimistic. And, you know, bear markets are never fun. We just came out of the bear market year. And, you know, it's always a bit disappointing. And you're like, you know, I wish it could go faster, you know, Bitcoin adoption. I mean, I would like to see hyper-bitcoinsization, you know, next year if possible. But, but it's, you know, unfortunately, maybe the realization this cycle was also that, like, okay, maybe it's more going to be like a generational thing, you know, like

for, you know, to get to hyper-bitconization. And so, you know, patience is needed. But I think the upside is strong for Bitcoin. And so, yeah, I'm very optimistic. I love it. And I agree. I think there's also a, we say, like a changing of the guard with inheritance going to millennials and what's their asset of choice going to be or one of the more

heavily ones, heavily weighted ones think it's going to be Bitcoin. It's interesting to the AI Bitcoin. relationship there. It's the, you have people that are usually the innovators and kind of first movers with the technology, so it makes sense that they would get into the space. But the other thing that kind of struck me when you said that it's kind of a pity. It's like, I agree. I think that Bitcoin is the more transformative and important technology. But it's also the, it's the low time preference one, right? It's really easy for me to boot up the latest model and show you how I could do like your day's work in just like an hour and a couple prompts. And you see the results immediately.

it's a lot harder still to sell people. And like, look, we're going to fix the money in like 25 years from now. Your grandkids are going to absolutely love you for it. But you're not going to see those downstream effects for quite a while. Exactly. Yeah. That is exactly how I feel as well. And so, you know, and I love AI.

I mean, and I think it's important and I think it's changing world. But, you know, AI with Fiat, it just means that things are getting more expensive and companies, you know, will keep on making profit. You know, governments get away with a lot of money printing due to all the efficient increases of AI and that's what bothers me so much. So I really think Bitcoin is more important, even more important than AI, because I mean, AI will allow us to do like incredible things. Yes, I'm sure. But, you know, in a system of slavery or in a system where we are free, you know, like so I think, you know, a free society matters more than the amount of, you know,

maybe efficiencies we can, you know, or how much we can do in our lives. No, I completely agree. It's unfortunate that it could be, it's potentially such a productivity gain that it actually keeps the stupid Fiat train on the rails a little bit longer. Like from an acceleration's perspective, it's like, ah, they can maybe kick the can down the road a little bit further. Exactly. AI. And this is exactly what the Fiat says needed, you know, because you need like, you know, growth for the system to sustain itself. And that is what Fiat is, basically. And now they found AI, right, like to do that. And so companies are growing, which we see. see and there's a lot of inflation, which we also see. And so it's, yeah, unfortunately, it allows them to continue to kick the count down the road a lot longer. I agree, it agree. It's kind of like the internet kind of bailed them out of 2008 crisis and the monetary breakdown going on there. It's like, okay, if something else is shaping up now, you'll get, you'll squeak a little more blood from the stone using AI. So we'll have to hopefully, we'll have to wait a little bit longer for hyper-bitcoinization, but it'll still be ultimately worth it. And I do think it is the, the,

most important technology. Geez, I don't even know how long. I had I necessarily even frame that. And my hope is that it's such a tough sell, but I still think we're going to have retail imagination again. I still think it's the correct message and it's the logically consistent one. It's just truthful. And so we'll pull people in.

It just might be a longer, more drawn-out battle that we would like to see. And so even just rounding things out on that note, if I'm going, just for fun, just for fun. If I take left curve probability, right curve probability and kind of right down, the middle. Where is Bitcoin in six months? I won't hold you to it. I'm just kind of curious how you distribute that price. And six months, we're at a new ultim high. I showed that in that bottom chart, right?

Love it. Yeah. Yeah. So, and to end maybe here with like AI, yeah. So I think you know, AI is really bringing abundance, you know, to intelligence. But, you know, scarcity will have to move

elsewhere, right? And so I think, you know, a lot of value can actually flow into Bitcoin because of the abundance that AI will bring. And so I'm really optimistic also about the future of Bitcoin and AI. I love it. This is absolutely fantastic. Hugely appreciate you bringing all this for us to check out. Where can people go to find you, your work, see all the charts, all that stuff? Yeah.

So I have a newsletter, substack newsletter, which is Bitcoinstratogy.com. And, you know, I have a platform where, like, all of these life charts are available. which is Bitcoin Strategy Platform.com. And of course, I'm on Axe at the RationalRood, and I'm still on Noster as at the Rational Rout. If you found value in all the charts and graphs that route brought for us today, make sure you hit that like button and subscribe if you're not already.

And check out the previous episode with Dr. Jeff, Joe Carlosari, and American Hoddle.