BTC Sessions - Becoming A Bitcoiner: Actor Graham Wardle from CBC’s HEARTLAND ep132

Episode Date: December 29, 2020

Graham Wardle is a Canadian actor starring in the drama series Heartland, which is now going into its 14th season on CBC. Graham got his in Bitcoin back in 2013, and through some tough lessons has recently begun to dive deeper down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. In this conversation we discuss his first encounters with BTC, the lessons learned from his journey so far, and how Bitcoin has helped shape his world view. Graham on twitter https://twitter.com/GrahamWardle Heartland on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/title/70171946 Graham’s website https://www.grahamwardleonline.com/ SUPPORT THE SHOW: LEDN Bitcoin backed loans –  get $25 free https://bit.ly/397rlLN Get Wasabi wallet for Bitcoin privacy https://wasabiwallet.io/ Cobo Vault: secure your Bitcoin! https://bit.ly/2GgMFlH BillFodl: get your wallet backups in solid steel. https://privacypros.io/ Bitrefill: use Bitcoin to purchase gift cards https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/?code=O04UMic9 LIGHTNING tips: https://tippin.me/@BTCsessions Telegram channel: https://t.me/btc_sessions

Wasabi wallet and fairly private. Graham Wardle is a Canadian actor and one of the stars of the drama series Heartland, which airs on CBC and is going into its 14th season. Now, Graham and I have actually been talking about Bitcoin for a couple years now. He reached out to me a while back and asked about getting help just navigating the space, understanding wallets and security and privacy and a bunch of the things that come with learning about Bitcoin for the first time. So we've been chatting for quite some time. He was gracious enough to have me on his podcast, which should be dropping relatively soon-ish. And I thought

it would be fun to have him on the show to talk about his experience, coming into Bitcoin, what he's learned, some of the difficulties or most difficult things to learn about in the space. and kind of where he's at now and how Bitcoin has changed him over time and what he's learned through this process. It was a really fun chat. I really enjoyed having him on, and I think it will mirror the experience for a lot of people coming into Bitcoin and what they've kind of had to go through in the hurdles that they've had to jump over

to gain an understanding and dive into the space. So without further ado, let's dive into this conversation with Graham Wardle from CBC's Heartland. Just a quick shout out to sponsors of the show, ledden.io. This is where you can use your Bitcoin for a variety of different services. They've saved my butt on a couple occasions. Of course, they've got their Bitcoin back loans,

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For reference, I'm using the Kobo Vault Pro, which has the fingerprint scanner and the rechargeable battery links down below. Now, I live on Bitcoin. Most of my income is in Bitcoin. I pay my bills in Bitcoin. And one of the things that really helps me out is bitrefill.com because they just have an endless supply of every gift card you could possibly need. And of course, they accept Bitcoin both on mainchain and Lightning Network for those cheap and instant transactions. The other beautiful thing about it is that you can earn some of that Bitcoin back. You can get SATs back as you shop and I regularly do and they've got a great referral program as well. So

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slide in to keep your backup safe. This thing is fireproof, it is waterproof, and likely you proof because you're probably less inclined to throw out a solid chunk of steel. So be sure to check out PrivacyPros.i.o, I'll have them link down below as well. And with that, let's dive into the interview. All right, we are recording Mr. Graham Wardle. Welcome to the show, man. It's, we talk once in a while. We did your podcast recently. So I'm stoked to have you on the show. How are you?

I'm doing good, Ben. Thanks for having me on the show. I've been watching your videos and we've been talking for a past couple of years. So I'm stoked to finally be on your show. This is great. Yeah, absolutely. And so we're probably going to get a mix of people watching and or listening to this. So some of them will be familiar with you. And some of them may be bit coiners that are not. So I guess, For the Bitcoin or crowd that watches my show that may not be familiar with your work, can you let everybody know, I guess, what you do? Yeah, sure. So I've been doing acting since I was a little kid. And more recently, I've been working on a show on Canadian television called Heartlands on CBC. So I've been doing that for 14 years.

So that's probably where if you have seen my face, that's probably where you would have seen it. And that's what I've been doing for the past. Oh, yeah, 14 years. Awesome. And so I got familiar. It's kind of funny because you had reached out to me with questions that you had in and around Bitcoin previously. I'll be honest, I didn't know who you were. So I think we had a few meetings before I kind of pieced together because my wife had been watching your show for like a few seasons.

and and then her and her mom my mother-in-law got on like a binge watching bender of Heartland and like blew through a ton of seasons and I was like I know that guy where do I know him from and they were like dumbfounded the connection of how how that would have happened and so yeah I it's funny that it becomes a small world when when things like that kind of intersect. So I guess the focus of this show is going to be kind of, I guess, your journey, your personal journey into like discovering Bitcoin and kind of the hurdles that you've had to clear in order to get where you're at, things that you find found difficult and easy and kind of how it's affected you overall. But I guess let's start with how did you. you even when and how did you start looking at and seeing and becoming curious about Bitcoin?

Well, I was in Calgary shooting, oh man, that was about seven years ago when I got my first Bitcoin. And I was in Calgary shooting Heartland, a season of Heartland. And I saw, I think it was an article in a newspaper or something. And it was like, you know, talking about this Bitcoin, this digital currency thing. And I was kind of like, oh, cool. Like I've always been into tech. I've always been into like, you know, when iPods first came out, I had to have an iPod. I was like, what is this?

This is so cool, you know? So I've always been interested in things as they came out just because I've always loved the magic of technology. Like it's, you know, really people put a lot of energy and thought into it. So it's always wowed me. And I've always liked that. And so I heard about this Bitcoin thing. And I didn't really know much about it. But there was like a location where you could buy it.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go buy one more. Like, what's what, what, what, how much do I have to, you know, bring in cash to buy one of these things? I didn't know you could buy a fragment of a Bitcoin. So I just brought in. It was a thousand bucks. So I was like, a thousand bucks of Bitcoin. Like, okay. Like, that's how I get into this store. And there was like people everywhere. It was like this small little like office. And it wasn't really set up. And there was Bitcoin mining machines in the back. And and there was this guy with his head in his hands. Like this, this, this was a. This, this was a. This, this was a. There was a guy at the front sitting in a chair and he had his head in his hands. And I was like, hey, man. He's like, hey. And I was like, I'm here to get a Bitcoin. He's like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like, talk to that guy. Anyways, we started getting chatting and turns out he lost a bunch of his Bitcoin, like thousands of them on a computer that he threw away or something. And it was like this omen for me because I lost my password to the first Bitcoin that I ever bought because I didn't know what I was doing. It was a good lesson. I learned, I learned a lot about, But, you know, all the different, it's a different way of thinking about money. And so that's how I first got

interested in it. And that's how I bought my first one. And I lost my password. It's funny enough, the shop you're talking about, that was one of the first Bitcoiners I ever met in real life. I imagine it you went to Bitcoin Brains. And it would have been in Kensington. In Kensington. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was run by a guy named Dave Bradley, who, later went on to partner with a guy named Francis Poolyot and found Bull Bitcoin. Oh, okay. Yep. And then now he's doing some work with a guy that's based in Edmonton named Adam O'Brien,

who runs a company that just changed their name to Bitcoin well. But they placed the first Bitcoin ATM in all of Alberta back in 2013. And they're actually gunning to be the first publicly traded Bitcoin ATM company. So that's on the dogged. So like you rubbed shoulders with some of the OGs with your first Bitcoin experience. Actually, that shop that you walked into was the first shop on the globe that you could walk into with cash and buy Bitcoin. Yeah.

Wow. So you're part of Bitcoin history here, man. That's cool. When I got the coin, too, I don't know if it was, was his name Dave? Yeah. I don't know if it was Dave that helped me, but he was a bigger. taller guy than me. And he gave me my phone back. And he's like, okay, there you go. And I was kind of like, I don't know what happened. Like, don't I get something like a receipt or anything. And he's like,

here you go. You're done. And I was like, okay. And that was it. It's in the computer. What? What? Yeah. So you were used and I kind of want to touch on this because it's part of your experience your first Bitcoin wallet. And I've kind of actually, I've kind of publicly shit on this company a few times because there's been experiences like in the past, but you were dealing with blockchain wallet. That's right. Yeah. And so they have a different setup than most wallets nowadays where you write down a series of words and you keep it safe. And that's a backup to your wallet where they did like a some weird, you know, They keep it online in a way, but there's like a wallet identifier and a password.

And if you lose that password or forget it, then you can't act, which is effectively what happened to you and to many others. Yeah. So, yeah, I have heard those horror stories. Now, was there a break between that initial foray into Bitcoin and then, like, did you leave it for a while? Forget about it. Like, because, you know. I forgot about it. It was once the price, I think the price, correct.

back to like 200 bucks or something like that. And so I bought at the peak, you know, and then it went down. And I was like, I'll go whatever. Like that was fun. Like maybe it was nothing or it's going to keep. And so I forgot about it. And then in 2017, early 2017, I saw the price kind of come back. And there was a Bitcoin ATM machine right beside, I was back in Calgary filming again

for another season of the show. And there was a Bitcoin ATM machine right beside the apartment that I had in a coffee shop. And I had seen it. I was like, oh, yeah, Bitcoin. I have one of those. And so that's when I realized I lost my password. I didn't know how to get back into it. And so that's when I got interested again because the price started going up.

And I was like, okay, I got to learn this. I got to figure this out. And I started talking other actors on set. And we started talking about it. We even had a little, even a bunch of us sat down. We're like, maybe we should buy some Bitcoin ATMs and like, get in on this. I'm glad we did. It's not our expertise.

But yeah, so that's when I got, you know, more. interested in it. And I think the pain when Bitcoin hit like, what was it like $20,000 in 2017 or early 2018. And the pain of being like, I can't get that was like what propelled me to like reach out to you eventually and to learn more because I was like, it was like my training. It was like going to school for, it gave me the motivation to learn more about it to understand the technology. And and then it kind of, that's what actually inspired me to go, oh, like this is actually something not just like trying to make money really quick. This is actually a technology, an evolution that is really exciting. So I actually am kind of grateful that I lost the password

because it brought me to hear where I am today. There's a guy that I've had on the show and I've been on his show a couple times. He calls that the price of tuition. Yeah. And that's what I chalked it up as. I was like, you know what? That's my price of tuition. And I will never make those mistakes again. like I'm super. Yeah, yeah. Bitcoin is a harsh teacher with some harsh lessons. But it's, it kind of beckons to the idea of, again,

don't trust verify and, and personal responsibility, things like that that we, we don't really get in, in the legacy finance or the traditional finance world. But what I wanted to touch on here is as you were kind of coming in that second round, putting in the work of learning.

let's maybe touch on on the learning curve as you were figuring it out because it sounds like the first time around it was just kind of a throwaway quick touch point not not really spending much time as you started to dive in let's talk about what you found were some of the easier lessons to learn in terms of wallets and things like that versus some of the more difficult things to grasp like what did you find was a little bit easier to dive into when you really started looking. Well, it kind of like, as I talk to people about Bitcoin, it kind of mirrors my journey as well, like people in the film world and such.

They're kind of like, what is it? How does it work? And I'm kind of like, well, it's kind of like PayPal and stuff like that. So the concept of like the send and receive through a Bitcoin wallet and through an app, I was like, okay, this makes sense because it's very comparable to, you know, what other apps and other things are out there in the traditional finance system. I'm kind of like, yeah, it just works like this. I think the challenging thing for me originally was to be like there's no Bitcoin company. There's no one person. There's no support desk that you

can go to and be like, hey, there's something wrong with my Bitcoin or there's something wrong with my transaction or whatever. There's no central point of authority. And that that was something that I had no experience of before. And I was like, well, then how does this work? Like who who shapes this? Who who steers this ship? And so that was challenging to understand. And once I started to get familiar with the idea of decentralization, all the other parts made sense. But the concept of a decentralized network for a payment system like Bitcoin was like, what?

Like how does that even work? And like, well, how does that work? And like, so that was the rabbit hole. And that was the difficult part. Once I started to understand decentralization, why it needed to be decentralized. And then because it was decentralized, here's all the components of, you know, that you have to understand. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And I'm still learning a lot about it, you know, hash rates and all these different things. And that's, it's a little far out. But, you know,

it's the forward facing use case of me sending somebody Bitcoin like I just, I was sharing with my friend the other day. I sent him some Bitcoin for some clothes that he got for me on a discount. And, you know, it helped him set up a wallet and such. And it was easy. It was pretty simple, right? And so that part was easy. And the instructions now in wallets, I find, you know, they're much more, they walk you

through the steps that, hey, did you write your seed phrase down? Like, write it down now. Yeah. And that stuff wasn't around in the beginning, right? So, or at least that I didn't see that stuff. So I think that's become a lot better. And I think that's the easier parts. The difficult part is understanding transaction volume and price, the fees for minors and priority

or standard or stuff like that. That stuff still I'm trying to get an understanding of. And the evolution of Bitcoin, the developers that are working on it and shaping it, that to me is a gray zone still. I still haven't fully figured out. that aspect of it. Now, how are you, and again, you maybe don't want to go into like a super descriptive detail here, but just on at face value, regarding security, you know, you've got hot wallets, you've got

hardware wallets. Was it difficult to grasp the difference between having Bitcoin on hardware versus software on your phone. Were you worried about security concerns given that there's no 1-800 Bitcoin to call? Like how was it navigating that for yourself? I wish there was a one. I wonder if someone has 1-800 Bitcoin. Can you imagine that was your actual phone number?

That'd be great. If it's a 1-900 number, then that it'd just be like people saying bullish things into your ear all day. Yeah, so the security aspect of it, once I started learning about it, I was kind of like, this is, again, like it's a new way of thinking, you know, traditionally you forget your password, you know, you contact your bank or, you know, say, I forgot my password, you get your password back. So that was hard to learn.

It was like, it was like a new way of operating. But I chalked it up to, you know, the more responsibility that I take in my life, the more benefit that I get. So I'm taking more responsibility with my passwords and these such of, you know, these types of things. I see that theme. translating to Bitcoin as well. It's like, okay, I'm going to learn about cold wallets. I'm going to learn about how to keep my seed phrase safe and secure. It was tough. And at the beginning, I had no

idea the difference between a hot and a cold wallet. And then as I started learning, I was like, okay. And then paper wallets are still completely, I cannot understand how that works. And I cannot understand how that's safe. But it's really not that safe. Well, for me, I'm like, I don't get it. But yeah, so the security of Bitcoin, again, was originally difficult because all my experience had been like, you know, with a banking card, like a pin. And then if you forget it, you just show your ID and then you get, you know, they fix it for you. So the concept of that there was no middleman or no central point of authority that could help me out if I, if I dropped the ball, was difficult at first to kind of be like, okay, this is real. This is, I'm responsible for this, you know. So it was tough, but I am so grateful for it because you feel, I feel much more confident and grounded and secure.

And the more I learn about it, the more I'm like, okay, I get why people are kind of religious about this whole Bitcoin thing. Because once you take that step, you feel so empowered. And you're like, oh, I get why people are very like kind of bullish or religious about this because it's very empowering to take. control and to take ownership of your financial well-being. Let's dive down this rabbit hole a little bit because I was going to say this for later, but it seems the conversation is pointing that way anyway. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, it sounds like early on it was more of like a speculative interest in Bitcoin.

But a lot of Bitcoiners will attest to having gotten in for different reasons and then Bitcoin, rather than them, you know, putting their views on Bitcoin, Bitcoin actually in, through proxy, ends up changing a little bit of your own views and how you view the world. Did you notice that? Like, you're talking about personal responsibility. What kind of, I don't know, personality or just, I guess, what's the word I'm going for? what kind of changes to the way that you operate or the way that you think about the world happened as you kind of dove down the Bitcoin rabbit hole?

It was, you know, I have always, you know, I read a lot of self-help books. I'm always doing self-development and stuff like that. I think it's, it always improves your life, you know. And so I've been attracted to principles like taking responsibility and bettering yourself and learning. and when I learned about Bitcoin and I saw that there was a similar state of ownership and responsibility that came with this idea of this technology, that's what really attracted me to it. And then the more I learned about it, the more it's sort of cemented and strengthened my own

resolve in those principles and those values that I have because I'm like, yeah, this makes sense. It's more work in the short term, but in the long term, it pays off. And that, you know, it's like going to the gym. Yeah, it sucks when you're in the gym, but it pays off in the long term. So those types of, you know, analogies to me was like, okay, I see the value in this. And then over time, the more I learn about the monetary system, the more I learn about governments trying to, you know, in the short term, you know, make things better. But in the long term, it hurt things.

I'm like, okay, I see why this is much more of a viable option. or, you know, something to be involved in. So, yeah, so it has shaped more. It has encouraged me to be more personally responsible. And, you know, I think as well with finances and stuff, it can be very overwhelming. At least it was for me to learn about all the different things and interests and all these different, finance can be very complicated if you want it to be. And so in that sense, I've always been a little intimidated by it. but what I've realized is that the more I learn about it, I feel more confident, more grounded,

and that's empowering. So I enjoy that. So yeah, that's kind of how it's impacted my life. I like that you're alluding to a common concept that a lot of Bitcoiners have taken to. And it's outlined in the Bitcoin standard. I don't know if you've read that book yet, but it's, no, no. No, that's Safedina Moose, and he talks about the history of money and how we could be driving towards a Bitcoin monetary standard because it's kind of the soundest money that the world has

ever seen and how value tends to accrue in the soundest and scarceest money out there. But he talks about a concept called time preference, and it again has to, it alludes to the idea of favoring the near term or favoring the long term. And Bitcoiners tend to go through this shift where they come in for very what's known as high time preference reasons. They favor the near term. So they're high time preference. They're looking at speculative gains over, you know, oh, I'm going to buy something. I'm going to sell at this price. But then as they learn about the concepts that underpin Bitcoin and the reason for it exists, for the high time preference activities of central banks.

And like you said, government trying to appease people within term limits and doing things that will hurt people in the long term, that is a very, very high time preference activity, whereas Bitcoin is basically is 100% low time preference, if you really understand. And I think that's a little bit of, even if people don't fully understand it, it kind of seeps into your life and the way that you handle yourself in your affairs over time. I'm curious if, in getting into Bitcoin, did it change your views on anything? Were there any beliefs or ways of thinking that you previously held that were challenged in looking at Bitcoin? Was there anything that shifted?

Yeah, I thought, you know, at first I heard a lot about, what's the guy's name, Silk Road guy? Oh, Ross, Ross, Ulbert. Albert, yeah. You know, I'd heard about stuff like Silk Road and stuff like this. And I was kind of like, okay, so this is like for people that, you know, don't want to play by the rules. You know, this is people that are trying to, like, skirt the system and just get a free ride and, like, not pay their taxes and stuff like that. So it's kind of like, okay, like, this is, I'll be a part. I'll buy a Bitcoin.

know, and just kind of see what it's about, but I could never live off it. I could never, you know, take it fully seriously because the majority of people using this are, you know, trying to skirt the system or do, you know, nefarious activity. And then when I started learning about it, more I saw that, oh, right, the media has an agenda. They're projecting stories and narratives about this Bitcoin. And it's not true. Once you start looking into it, you're like, oh, this is not true. And a lot of, you know, your videos and other videos I'd watched online and people breaking it down and talking about, you know, the U.S. dollar and all the fraud that's, you know, and the people that are laundering money with this

and the different big banks that launder money and stuff like this that I think was HSBC that got caught like laundering money for some drug cartels or whatever. Anyways, you start reading all these stories. You're like, yeah, wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. So a lot of those false narratives that were put out by the media that Bitcoin was for people that were disrespectful. They didn't want to pull their own weight. They didn't want to contribute to their community. They were just kind of like skirt the system and get as much as they could fell apart. And then I started seeing that it was actually a group of people that cared about sound money,

that cared about personal sovereignty and responsibility and protecting their wealth. And that's something that was like, oh, okay. Like I understood that that was a good thing, but I didn't think that that's what Bitcoiners were about. And the more that I've learned about it, the more it's become a part of like my operating system and things that I value is like, yeah, that's a really good thing to pay attention to, to learn about it and to endorse because it helps everybody in the long run. Yeah, I do really love the realization as people get into Bitcoin and they realize, well, hey, this seems to be driven by a desire to build better for the future inherently with a, monetary system that doesn't encourage people to make poor short-term decisions and build their communities and focus maybe a little bit more locally and how they can help people around them. And it really is the opposite of what is portrayed or what up until maybe now has been

portrayed in the media because, again, it's what gets the clicks, not not oh some people made sound money and they have good intentions and they they they would like to you know compete with with the system that they believe is broken that that doesn't quite yeah clicks and also like mainstream media is a powerhouse right and like why give away the power there I mean that's why I don't see I see mainstream media collapsing the same way the fiat system is you know eventually has to collapse as well because it's like the the power is in the people is in the community and supporting each other. And those narratives, those major narratives that are spread through the airwaves, I think it has the initial sort of like intention of being for the good of everybody.

And I'm sure there are great people that work there doing, trying to do that. But the people who really pull the strings, they have agendas. They have narratives. And yes, it's about money and it's about power. And so why would they want to give that power up? You know, like, why would they do anything to try and take away their own power? I don't think they would. Did you always have an inherent questioning of authority figures or is this a, was that, was there that there previously or was it just built upon after getting into Bitcoin? I think it was when I realized that people lie. And I took, it was when the first time I did magic mushrooms.

And I was like, I'm not a drug person. I don't do drugs. That's not me. And my friends were, he was in college. And my friends were like, okay, that's cool. And I was like, oh, there's no pure pressure. Like, what? I was told in movies and everything that would be peer pressured.

And it's, you know, it's going to be super bad. And I was like, that's weird. They were super cool about me not doing it. And I did some research on it. And I was like, wait a second. It's natural. It's not cooked in a bathtub. There's nothing, you know, grows naturally.

I was like, okay, sure. So I tried these magic mushrooms. Had a great time. And I realized in that moment, I was like, oh, there's like people that lie to you. There's like narratives out there that they lie to you. Just straight out lie to you. And it's not true. And there are things that, you know, are obviously psychedelics and any sort of drug can be dangerous, depending on how you use it. But there's so many lies out there. So that was the first time I was kind of like, whoa, there is, there was a big lie that I was living under that I didn't understand. And then I saw, what was the 9-11 documentary? One of the first viral. Fahrenheit.

No, the one that was it called, was it called? Was it called? Lose Change. Is that what was called? I don't know if I saw that. Okay, it was like one of the first like 9-11 conspiracy theory documentaries and I had never seen a viral video before. And I watched it and I was like, whoa, again, another alternative viewpoint. I know a lot of it was debunked or a lot of it was like, you know, just maybe questions. But it was that sort of time that I was kind of like, oh, like that was another, I should say, another event that I was a part of or I, I witnessed that I was kind of like, what if there's more to this? So that's when I, you know, those were the seeds of me questioning things.

And, you know, even today, I get really suspicious if somebody's like, oh, you can't question this or we can't have a conversation about this. I'm like, that's a red flag for me because it's like, why? We should be able to talk about anything. Why can't we talk about things? It doesn't mean that I agree with it, like, but we should be able to talk about it. So anytime that happens, I get very suspicious because throughout my life, anytime someone is pushing a narrative or it's like you can't question it has to be this way they're hiding something

they're trying to you know control you in some way so i've always been very suspicious of that yeah it's it's very interesting this this push towards you know removing voices it you know as as crazy as some people might be on social media platforms i don't think that uh when you go to remove anybody's voice regardless of kind of what they're saying, you further emboldened that narrative, right? And you kind of give it credence in that people aren't allowed to hear this. You know, I've always been a big proponent of if somebody says something that is not accurate, refute it with the counter argument.

Yeah. Rather than shutting down that viewpoint. Yeah. exactly because if you shut them down it makes people think like oh well why what what's what's about that what's going on with that and that person that shut down is like no but yeah I think a healthy conversation is something that we're uh I think we're getting back I think it's you know but there there's been pretty dicey around you know there's certain things you can't talk about people just yell at you and scream at you and you're just like okay we're not we're not going to get anywhere

you know but it's a real interesting world that we live in right now with with uh I guess you'd call it like a cognitive dissonance or like, you know, they've made up their mind. And it's just like there's nothing else that you can tell them that will shift it. That's scary. And that's where I don't think I want to go into a world like that. I want to be able to have conversations with people with people I don't agree with. And be like, okay, let's talk it out. Now, were you ever early on, were you like a closet bitcoiner?

Were you worried about talking about it with people? And if so, or were you talking with, people about it right away. Did you get scoffed at? Has that changed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talked to my investment advisor about it. One of the, oh, man, advisors about it. And yeah, and, you know, he's just kind of like, he was, yeah, it was kind of like, I wanted to talk about it, but I was like, yeah, like, I don't know. Like, what do you think? Like, because I was a little embarrassed and it was kind of like, again, it comes back to this, this idea of confidence and putting your power outside of yourself and that's something I've thought a lot about.

It's like I was saying, well, this person is an investment advisor, so they must have all this schooling, they must know. And so if they scoff at it or if they don't like it, then it must not be that good. So I was doubting myself and what I found fascinating and exciting about it and putting my power in somebody else who was an expert.

And so, yeah, so in that sense, as I started to realize, no, like trust yourself more, tune in and listen to yourself. those, I became more confident about speaking out about it. But initially it was, it was challenging, right? Because you're going against the mainstream narrative. And any time you have an opinion or, you know, a way of living that doesn't go along with what everybody else is being, you know, hurted to do, you get resistance. Because people are kind of like, hey, get back in line.

Like, you know, and then they recite the narrative that they heard on the news, like, oh, it's for criminals. Or are you trying to be a criminal? Like, whoa, whoa, you're not even thinking for yourself. You're just reciting whatever you saw on the news. that tells you that Bitcoin is like this, you know? 100%. Now, when you were, you said you were talking on set with some people, was that more recently? Is that, was that a year's ago?

And what were those conversations like? Was it, was it curiosity or was it, what are you doing? People laughed at me in 2017 when I was buying, you know, just just little, little bits here and there with some extra cash I had on hand. And then I would, I'd walk into the, we do these readthroughs where you sit down with the new episodes of the scripts and you read them out together before we shoot them. And I was sharing with the producer. I was like, yeah, like my 30 bucks or whatever it was that I put in yesterday is like now, you know, much more or whatever. I was just talking about the little fluctuations in the price.

And they kind of like, oh, cool. Like way to go, buddy. Like getting wrapped up at a Ponzi scheme. So that's kind of, you know, it was, I mean, that's not what they said, but that was my interpretation. Maybe they were really wishing me well. But my interpretation was that people were kind of like, cool, man. whatever. And then, you know, talking with some of the other actors, we, when the price was going crazy, we sat down. We were kind, oh, well, you know, like I said before, like, maybe we'll buy an ATM and we'll, like, you know, do it as an investment. And so that was, we didn't end up doing that. But it was more speculation. Like you were saying earlier, most people start with a speculative sort of mindset of like, well, maybe we can make some quick money. And there's not a real interest

in the technology. And that's something that I've, whenever I shared it with people, I always, I'm like, if you're willing to learn, I'll tell you more and I'll tell you how to do it. But if you're not willing to learn, you just want to buy it and then just like make a bunch of money and sell. I'm like, no, you can do that with somebody else, but I'm not going to help you do that. Like, you know, that's not my thing. So I always send people videos and then if they watch them and I'll ask some questions. And if they can, you know, answer those questions. I'm like, okay, I'll keep talking with you. But I'm not going to waste my time helping you out if it's just a a quick get rich quick thing because yeah absolutely now um when have you noticed a a shift in kind of

the the media narrative like i've been kind of feeling it this year but it's to me it seems that the narrative of it's a Ponzi scheme the regular tulip mania 2.0 kind of narrative that you hear, you would hear previously. That seems to be thrown out the window. I don't know if you've noticed that either in media coverage or just in conversations with people, but have you caught on to that? Yeah. So a couple of years ago, I was talking to some people about paying for services in Bitcoin. And there was a there was an attitude of like, no, it's not sound. It's not trusted. It's not valid. It's, you know, that's kind of like fools gold. And then in the last year, yeah, 12 to 18 months, there's, I've noticed some of those people

that are close and around me have been like, oh, hey, like I would like to get into this. Can you help me? Like, I want to learn. And so that in my circle of friends has changed. And then in the media, I've noticed more, very subtly, like, oh, this is something that, you know, you might want to have a part of your portfolio or like these people are interested in it. like Elon Musk was like making jokes about it like the other day.

And then now he's like, well, how would I move big sums of money into Bitcoin? Is that even possible? Like you're seeing, yeah, like there's more of those sort of like people are kind of like looking like, oh, maybe. Yeah, that could work. So that's kind of what I've seen, you know, in the little bit of surveying I've done of the news around Bitcoin and the narrative is that there's a shift to like, oh, yeah. And I also like we talked about on my podcast.

all the money that's being printed. And I think people are kind of being like, okay, like we all know that this is not good. Yeah. How is your understanding of that kind of evolve? I mean, obviously, and I mean, I don't know if you've had conversations with other people about this, but do you find that people are at least starting to pay attention that, wait, they can just print unlimited money? Have you had any of those conversations or have you personally just been watching going, what the hell?

Yeah, I've had one conversation on the way home from on set. I was a year or two ago, maybe a year ago. And one of the little actresses, young girl, she was, we were talking about Bitcoin or something, money. And she was like, oh, well, why can't they just make more of it? And so I was like, okay, this is a good challenge for me to explain why you can't just print more money. So I was like, well, you know, if you had a bunch of Kool-Aid, let's say you made some Kool-Aid, and you had a bunch of friends come over, so you wanted to make more Kool-Aid, but you didn't have any more Kool-Aid powder.

Maybe you add some water to that Kool-Aid, and then you give it to all these other people that just showed up. Well, their Kool-Aid isn't as flavorful. They can't really taste the sugar anymore. So that wouldn't be that great for them, would it? She's like, no, it wouldn't. I was kind of like, yeah, when they print more money, it kind of like waters down the Kool-Aid. So she understood that. And then her mom was like, oh, that's a good,

example. That's great. I love how you're trying to get her to drink the Kool-Aid as you're explaining with a Kool-Aid metaphor. Yeah. So those, yeah, that was, that's the one conversation I've had, but I think a lot of people, my sense is that there is, there is like, I don't want to ruffle feathers and like, this is how I, this is what the government has approved. This is what the mainstream narrative is, you know, you use Canadian dollars, you use U.S. dollars, you use the government issued currency to live off of that's just what everybody does. I do think that people and you know, that's what I'm feeling right now is like, how do you do it, Ben? That's why I asked you on my podcast, like, how does that work? Like, what does that like? Because I didn't even think it was an option.

And I think a lot of people are still like, well, how would I live my life? Like, it's just, it's a lot of brain power to, um, to kind of restructure that, you know? And but, you know, little steps, baby steps. And the more I learn about it, the more I'm like, okay, it's not that bad. But for people that are stressed out or they're just trying to, you know, get to work, get back, feed their families, do their stuff, I can see how it might be challenging for people to take that amount of time to kind of rethink the importance of sound money and then how government policies around spending and quantitative easing and such like that really impact and steal the value of their money. Yeah. Are you now less likely to hang on to dollars in a

bank account as opposed to just putting it in anything else? Like, are you a little more, I guess, cognitive of how you save your money rather than just sitting on cash in a bank account? Yes. I had known about inflation. I had known about this. And I had friends that argue that inflation is good. They're Keynesian. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they're like, no, no, you need inflation. You need to do this, you know, stimulate business, all this stuff. And I was going to make any sense. Like, maybe, maybe to some people it does. I'm not very well educated in those lines of thinking. But now I'm looking at dollars in my bank. And I used to kind of, I was conservative. I don't, I don't spend more than I bring in, or at least not anymore. And, but now I see dollars

sitting there and I'm like, oh, yeah, like every, every minute that goes by, there, it's slowly you know, the water's leaking out of the jar, so to speak, like it's leaking because of inflation. And because there's not a direct, you don't look at your bank account and then the numbers drop, wouldn't that be crazy? Is if you could actually see inflation in real time, like if your bank account numbers actually were dropping in real time because of inflation, people would freak out. There's no way to get money and dollars. But because it's hidden and it's kind of like off to the side, it's harder for you to see.

But anyways, for me, it's something that I'm looking more serious. at and trying to understand how to diversify the blessings of finances that I've been given to retain its value so that I, you know, not so that I can have more money for me, but because I want to do good in the world. And I want to help other people and build things to help other people. So it's, to me, it's like a taking responsibility for what I've been blessed with. And if Bitcoin or gold or silver or any other sort of store of value is a way to honor what I've been blessed with and then so that I can continue to contribute to the world, I'll do it. I'll do it because I'm committed to that. So yeah. Well, it's, it's, yeah, I like what you're getting at here.

Because again, it's when you go and you create something or, you know, create a good or a service or you do something that people value and, and they opt to put their financial energy into that by purchasing said good or service, well, you've created something. You've created perceived value for people. They put money into that. And for your time and effort and creativity and efficiency, you receive what's effectively an IOU to get goods or services at a later date. The problem is that IOU is dwindling over time. Like if you had a buddy that said, hey, come over and you're a tradesman, come over and do my flooring and next year I'll do your roof. But then by next year, they only did 90% of your roof because that debt had gone down in

value. That would be a pretty shitty deal. And people don't quite grasp that. And I like the idea of the bank account that goes down. The only way that you could possibly have that is if your bank account showed the percentage of the economy, the percentage of total global wealth that you held. And so that's kind of what Bitcoin is. When you own a certain amount of Bitcoin, you know the absolute percentage of how much Bitcoin that you own. And money is meant to just be kind of a proxy or a measurement of all goods and services that exist.

And you own, when you own dollars, you own a certain percentage of the global stuff that's available. Just because there's more money doesn't mean there's more stuff. And so when you own a certain percentage of purchasing power, but then somebody somewhere else creates more money and allocates it where they see fit, your percentage of what you can buy in the world goes down. And so if you saw, like, you own this percent of global wealth and every, like, especially this past year, you own this percent of U.S. dollars.

And all of a sudden it's 30 percent less in a year. you'd lose your mind. Yeah, exactly. And once you get that, and once I've started to get that, I'm like, okay, I see this now, but because it's been obfuscated, like, and just hidden, you don't think about it, you know, out of sight, out of mind. And so, and no wonder they don't want to have those statistics and those numbers up there because people would freak out.

They'd be like, what are you talking about? But it, to me, is a theme in the time that we live in right now is like taking responsibility, cleaning out the closet, getting things simple, getting back to basics and going, what is, what is really valuable? You know, I think the whole pandemic thing has done the same with our internal lives and stuff too. It's kind of like, what really matters, you know? What do we really care about? And I think money and the financial system is next. We're going to figure out, hey, what is this really about?

And we're going to stop allowing people to steal, to steal the value that we've worked hard for. in this sort of roundabout way. And I hope it comes sooner than later. But it's the evolution of consciousness the way I see it. People as a collective, we're waking up to this and we're seeing how to take ownership back, how to take responsibility. And it comes with challenges and comes with lessons learned, but it's worth it. Yeah.

I mean, money is kind of a measuring stick for truth and where people place value. And so when people purchase a problem, or they go utilize a service or they, you know, wherever they put their money, they're saying, I place some value in this and I think it's worth this. Now, when more money gets created and allocated where the central banks see fit, well, that's what you're taking is the influence of every single person and their purchasing power that said, well, this is valuable to me. They're saying, actually, we're going to take where you think is valuable. And we're actually going to put it over here because we think we know better than the aggregate of all of humanity and where they have placed their value.

And so it's like this, the hubris involved with thinking that you know better than the entirety of every person on the planet and where they put their money is insane. And I think sometimes it may come from good intentions from certain people, but as long as there's the opportunity for illicit intent, as long as there's the opportunity for somebody to act malicious in that power structure, the temptation is too great. Somebody will take advantage of it sooner rather than later. And you see that with the amount of printing that's happening and the percentage that's actually going to people. It's crazy because, again, you're getting a check if you're out of work and you get that check and you think, oh, I've got more dollars now. But if you had that ticker in your bank account that showed the percentage, it just went down by 30, 40, 50 percent because the aggregate amount of money, I don't know if you saw out of the states the recent. bill that's going through for the next round of stimulus. 600 bucks.

600 bucks, but the the percentage that's actually going to people is, oh, it's, it's unbelievable. It's, I don't even think it's a third of the money that they're creating is going to people. It's like 70 plus percent is going to corporations and, and to wherever. And a lot of it is not accountable. Like, you're not going to know where it, went. It's crazy. What was the, I think it was Thomas Payne, and I could be wrong on this, who said this, but it was the road, the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions or something

like that. You know, it's always like, oh, this is for your safety. This is for your own good. This is to help you. But it's like anytime some central authority thinks they're going to decide what's best for your life, it always ends badly. It's never ended well. Well, it's, yeah, the whole idea is it doesn't matter. if the person that is currently in power making the rules has good intentions. What matters is, is the every person that is in charge from now on forward. Now that we've given up these responsibilities and place them on somebody at the top, that every person from now on has to have good intentions.

Do you think that's actually going to pan out? Do you think that every politician in that? position of power is always going to have the best at heart for everybody. And sorry, I'm getting a weird thing on my computer here. Some updates cannot be installed. Cancel. Okay, sorry. I'm back.

All good. All good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So freaking out. I was going to say that, you know, yeah, intentions, but also you can have good intentions, but your execution is terrible.

Oh, yeah. You can have terrible execution, but your intentions are to help everybody. But you actually end up hurting everybody, you know? So, yeah, it's, I think personal responsibility and allowing people to be adults, there is a threshold too, right? Like I think wearing a seatbelt in a car. I'm like, yeah, I think that's a good thing. Like, I'm not going to fight that, you know, but that's like something that's kind of like, you know, someone would say, well, you know, you allow people to, you know, force a seatbelt law on you. Well, you also have 16 year olds that drive cars and some of them aren't too smart.

If they were to say, hey, you're 80 years old or like maybe when you cross 65, it's like some of these rules don't apply. I'd be down with that. Like if you're 65, you don't want to wear seatbelt. Sure. Like, sure. All good. Do it, do whatever you want.

Yeah. No, no helmet rollerblading at 80. Yeah, you know, like if you're 65, you live long enough. Like, you, I think you can make decisions whether or not you want to be safe in this scenario. Now, this has been a rough year for a lot of people. And I know. in my personal life, a lot of people that I know individuals, they seem kind of down about

the whole state of the world. But the inverse to that, oddly enough, maybe not oddly enough, but most Bitcoiners I know are like are pretty optimistic about the future. They're pretty, I think they view it as this is a potential solution to the underlying systemic problems that has have resulted in a lot of the problems that we see because money does have a massive, massive influence in the way in human behavior. And so I'm just wondering if, if you feel any of that, if you're, if you've been feeling or, or have noticed that when you look at bitcoins versus, quote unquote, normie friends, is there a difference in disposition? You know, I don't, I mean, I don't know too many people that are like super hardcore Bitcoin people.

Like, but judging from the videos that I've seen are our conversations, I do see in terms of the financial aspect of things that the optimism, there is definitely more optimism in the Bitcoiners crowd. And I think it's because they've done a lot of work. They've done a lot of hard research and they understand the principles of sound money and they understand the principles of sound money. understand that they have taken responsibility for their financial well-being. And when, you know, government prints a bunch of money or these things happen, they're kind of like, who is it? I think it was the Winklevoss twins tweeted like, oh, another great press conference for Bitcoin when it was they announced like the stimulus or whatever, you know, kind of thing. I can't remember what the tweet was, but something like that where it's kind of like, hey, like, this is just good

news for us because we've learned this lesson. And we know that eventually this is just going to happen. which on the surface looks like arrogant, but then once you start digging into it, you're like, oh, actually, they're standing upon a solid foundation of an understanding of money and a store of value that a lot of people don't have. So that's why I wanted to have you on my podcast and I want to be on your show because I think it's really important to raise awareness about this so that other people that aren't, that are normies, they can be like, I'm going to break out of this matrix that I've been, you know, programmed to think this way and start exploring what is the foundation of money? Like what what makes money sound and as a store of value and just sort of dig into the history of it.

That's what I've found fascinating. And I hope more people do that homework because it will only benefit you in the long run. Yeah. Knowledge. A hundred percent. It's beautiful because it really, it doesn't matter. If Bitcoin is successful, it doesn't matter at what point you opt out of the traditional financial system and opt out of fiat currencies. it still benefits you no matter what because you have that low time preference.

You start thinking further into the future. You start building for your family and for the good of society. And it changes you. I wanted to share too that you know, you talked about in your life how it changed your spending habits. And you saw your spending habits differently now because you're like, I want to hold on to the good, you know, the valuable sound money. And that's something.

that I've been thinking about a lot too. And I didn't realize that a part of my programming, I knew that prices would just, that they always go up just from being a young kid. I knew that things got more expenses as time went on. And it always made me feel like, it was almost like in the background, there was like a lack mentality that there would never be enough because prices are always going up and you have to always find ways to cut corners and to cut people off. And that's just how you, how you survive. And then kind of rolling back and kind of sitting, back and be like, wait a second, maybe it's because of these policies, the way we have structured this tool of money that has forced people to, you know, what we talked about shrinkflation

and cut corners to try and make ends meet. It's not that they're evil. It's not that they're trying to screw somebody out of a good value product. It's just somebody else, a higher power, is stealing the money, stealing the value out of the money. And they're trying to survive. And so once I started to learn about this, I was like, it was liberating. I'm like, wait a second. Like, I can contribute and be, you know, paid in a currency, in a money that retains its value. And then I don't have to keep finding ways to, you know, shave off things to kind of make ends meet. I can focus instead on refining my product and giving more value to people.

and like you said, like providing something for my family and for future generations and contributing to the world in a positive way. Like it's such a mind. It reminds me actually of this great documentary called the biggest little farm. And it's all about people learning to grow food. And then you see how the whole ecosystem of this farm, they all work together. It all helps out. And you don't need all these big pesticides and all these different things to grow the food.

All these different animals and things work together. And it was the same thing. feeling of like, well, of course it's this way. It should work this way. It should work all in harmony. It should, you should be able to save for a rainy day or for future generations. Your money shouldn't be losing value as the days go on. Like it shouldn't be like that. Why would we create a tool that works that way? So yeah, once, once I learn about Bitcoin, I'm like, it's that same feeling of like, well, yeah, that's the kind of world I want to live in. that's the kind of world I want to be a part of. And yeah, it's great. I love it. It's beautiful that

in the face of debt culture and stealing from your future self, a tool has come forward to incentivize saving for your future self. And yeah, man, it's the same principle. It's like, you know, people drink all this caffeine in the morning to like boost themselves up in the long term, you know, stealing from your future self because then later you have the crash, right? It's like this is the ideology, the mindset of our culture. And it's shifting because it's not sustainable. It can't last. We're at the limits of borrowing from our future selves.

It's just not going to work anymore. Yeah, exactly. Because now we've gone beyond borrowing from ourselves. We're now borrowing from our children and grandchildren. And there's just there's no way that it pans out. It's just, you know, how far down the line are we going to go? As long as far as people will let it. And I think it's starting to crack right now, people,

starting. Isn't there a threshold of when the price of food gets beyond a certain price of someone's paycheck that that's when revolts happen? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure I have heard that kind of that stat, but I'm not sure where I heard it. But yeah, absolutely. Like when when it push comes to shove, as soon as it becomes difficult to eat, it's, you know, it's all over. And you see that in places like Venezuela, right? You, when, when you can't survive, it's very easy. It is that spark happens. And then you got a brush fire going.

And it's, you know, we're, and we're kind of seeing it. Like, I'm, I'm really thinking that stuff like the civil unrest that, even that we're seeing in the U.S., but we're seeing it all over the world, especially this year, is very much in, in response to, you know, yeah, there's other underlying. lying issues, but those were just the sparks that lit the terrible infrastructure a fire, lit it a blaze. And I think we're going to see potentially more of that in the coming years. But, but hey, we hope it's a positive thing. I hope people aren't burning down buildings. Yeah, yeah.

People rise up, unify and get their act together and realize that they can take their power back as soon as they wake up and say, we've had enough. We don't want to participate in a system that screws us over. But in order to do that, you have to educate yourself because so many people get upset. They know there's something wrong. But that emotion then leads them into groupthink. And that group think is then steered in a political agenda. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Be self-empowered. Teach yourself what's actually going on. And therefore you can get yourself out of those group-think emotionally charged groups that just, they're just angry. They don't know why they're angry because they don't understand what's going on. So I hope that people can become more educated and use and funnel that emotion and that righteous anger into a solution that's empowering to people as opposed to just, you know, finding an enemy and saying it's all their fault. Yeah. I think if people start to focus a little bit more local, you know, find out what your neighbors need.

Be a good community member. Build stuff for the people around you and be helpful and a good person. And that's, you know, if everybody focuses with the people around them, then I think in aggregate, the world will be a better place. Amen. Completely agree with that, especially right now. Yeah, 100%. Well, Graham, I think that's probably a nice way to end. It's positive.

We're looking forward to the next year. And I think in the Bitcoin space, it's going to be an excellent one. I'm definitely getting those inklings. I think a lot of people are. But, you know, moving forward, I think we're building a better future for everybody. So, yeah, I really appreciated you coming on, talking, sharing a little bit about your journey. I'm sure you've got many more rabbit holes to go down. Thanks for having me, Ben.

I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate all the work that you do as well, educating people, making it fun, and very approachable for people. I've referred your videos to a lot of people because you're a trustworthy guy. you're a fun guy and you love what you do and it comes across in your in your work so i appreciate what you do and thanks for having me on the show yeah thanks for being here and before you go uh can you let people know where they can find you obviously there's the show but uh and you like social media handles yeah i'm on i'm on instagram uh graham whartle uh twitter i got parlor i got mewi

i got a podcast called the time has come uh it's all on my website graham whartle dot com uh grandwortle online com. Perfect. Awesome. Well, guys, check them out. Once again, man, thanks for being here. Awesome. Thanks, Ben. Thank you guys so much for watching and or listening. Of course, if you're here on YouTube, please do hit like, subscribe, and share all of those things really, really do help. The more you do them, the more content like this gets pushed in front of even more eyeballs. So thank you to everybody that's been doing that regularly. I do see it when it happens. Of course, if you want to about the show in another way, you can hit the previously mentioned sponsors that I mentioned down below. That was Ledden, Cobo, Bit Refill, and of course Privacy Pros, aka the Bill Fottle.

And finally, if you really liked what you saw, you can always drop me a Bitcoin Network tip at my tippin.me page, that is t-i-p-p-in.m-me-slash-at-B-T-C-Sessions. And with that, I'm out. Have yourselves a wonderful day, a wonderful evening, wherever you may be, and I will see you next time for your daily session.