BTC Sessions - Bitcoin and USDC Savings for Latin America: Escaping Inflation With Ledn and Genesis EP057

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

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Wasabi wallet and fairly private. Hoddle their Bitcoin. What's up, everyone? I am Ben with the BTC Sessions. As many of you know, I've been working with a company called Leden for the better part of a year now. And they do a lot of great things that help Bitcoiners hoddle their Bitcoin while still being able to gain access to the liquidity of their Bitcoin and be able to get their Bitcoin. and be able to get their hands on dollars and things like that at savings accounts, all kinds of great things. But they're diving into a new venture now.

And it's pretty interesting to me, especially with a lot of the stuff that's happening in the world right now and kind of the macro overview of a lot of economies around the world. And I wanted to have these guys on to chat about what's happening and what they're building here. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to toss it to these. gentlemen to introduce themselves. Guys, I will, I'll do it one by one here, but if you can take a quick two minutes, introduce yourself where you're from, what you do. So I guess I will, I'll toss it

to Adam first. You can take the floor. Hey, guys, Adam Reeds here, co-founder and CEO of Leden. Thanks a lot, Ben, for having us on today. Really, obviously, you've had Maricio on the show before. So Reese and I co-founded Ledin several years ago and I've grown it to really stay true to one mission, is helping more people save in Bitcoin. And today we're brought in there to be digital assets. And so, you know, I think Ledin, all the things we do is with that exact mission, is helping people save in assets that are frictionless and digital. And, you know, we're proud to announce a collaboration today with Genesis.

And Genesis is a company that we've gotten to know very, very, well over the past year and had been working with them on different products already and really what we're the the esos of Latin is we want to be transparent in everything we do and part of this announcement is adding transparency to our partners and what's actually being done with the coins that are sitting with the platform and the question that we get asked a lot but we're very excited to clarify that with this product announcement as well as other pieces of our business so I won't take up too much time. I want to pass it off to Matt. And I'm sure you're all anxious to know more about Genesis. If you haven't already heard of them, they're massive. Awesome. Awesome. We'll pass it to Matthew.

Quick intro. Let us know who you are, what you do. Sure. Hey, guys. How's going? Matt from Genesis. I am a VP and run the Originations and Lending Desk at Genesis. I joined about three years ago to kind of solely focus on building out this business. So we originally, Genesis originally started as kind of just an OTC trading desk. We're wholly owned by a company called Digital Currency Group, who is one of the largest venture investors of the space, run by a man named Barry Silbert. And so we started as a trading business. We spawned the lending desk in March of 2018 and are now probably the largest institutional lender in the digital asset space. So we have roughly, you know, close to a billion dollars in active loans today. and we've done about $6 billion in origination since we've started.

Wow. So impressive numbers there. Okay. So I guess we're going to get right down to it. Maybe I'll defer to Adam here as to kind of what you guys are building out now. So you previously had the savings. You had the Bitcoin back loans. You had your B2X offering.

What is new in the pipeline now, or I guess being launched now, And who's it for? What does it do? Just kind of toss it all out there. Yeah, so we're launching USDC savings account. So it works almost an identical fashion to our existing Bitcoin savings account, but the asset is different. So USDC, for those that aren't aware, it's the largest of the regulated stable coins. So tether is the largest by market cap. But USC is next. And USC has a lot of credibility because of the fact that it is back. by regulated institutions. And it's used very frequently for hedge funds and traders looking to go back and forth in between

Bitcoin. And the other really key attribute of it for those that are hoddling it or holding it is it's tied one to one to the U.S. dollars. So it has the stability of the dollar. And really, over the past several months, especially in the climate that we're in, we've got very excited about it because although we're all Bitcoiners by heart, we really see a transition. And the world today very much still runs on dollars. And I think we often say within the leaden team that the U.S. dollar has won the branding war on currency as much as sometimes

that pains me as a Canadian. I know that the U.S. dollar is very much the global currency. And especially within our base within Latin America, we had a lot of requests for offering a stable coin account just because of the frictionless nature that provides and that as I said, the price stability that you don't have to be concerned about how it's trading that day. You know that it always has that one-to-one back. Yeah, it's, it's interesting to see kind of the implications of what's happening globally in relation to, I mean, unprecedented money printing, but you would think you'd see a lot of inflation with the U.S. dollar, but currently what we're seeing is kind of the inverse because there's a bit of a liquidity

crunch, a cash crunch, where given that the U.S. dollar is the global reserve currency, there's actually a shortage of dollars. And so we're seeing global currencies external to the U.S. dollar actually drop versus the dollar and the dollar actually retaining, if not gaining purchasing power, at least in the short term here. And so is that kind of, you know, obviously not the entirety of the reason, but like part of the reason why USDA is kind of you wanted to offer that option to people? Yeah, completely two reasons. So one is that exact one that you just mentioned.

So the devaluing of currencies in comparison to the UST, so we saw it a little bit in Canada even, you know, from pre and post-COVID, the Canadian dollar depreciated by about 7%. But in Latin America, it's massive. So Mexico's currency has gone down by 20%. the Argentine peso has gone down by 30%. So imagine that within only a few months, your savings just being obliterated. So one, this provides a transition into a U.S.

dollar-backed asset. And two, and equally exciting, is the interest rate that we can pay because of the use cases that Matt can speak about is very exciting as well. We're launching it with a 7.5% APY interest rate, which is incredibly attractive for the market and climate that we're in. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's insane. Like you think of, I mean, there's, there's banks around the world that are starting to go negative interest rates in some cases and to see that kind of a return. Maybe I'll defer to Matt here a little bit, but what is the reasoning behind, I guess maybe if you want to speak to it as to why this is unavailable with traditional savings accounts versus what you guys can do.

Like, what are you doing with the coins? What's the process of lending out? And if you feel like contrasting with kind of the global macro backdrop of why that's not happening regularly for people with their savings accounts. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to kind of give commentary on this. So, you know, just for some background, Genesis, you know, we're really focused on lending to the institutional players in the space.

So these are the large trading firms, the large hedge funds, and other corporations that might kind of have their operations centered around Bitcoin or USC or other stable coin. And so, you know, we're really only facing about 50 or so counterparties. And so we've gotten to know them pretty intimately. We understand their use cases. And we take the time to really, you know, kind of get into the weeds to understand what it is that they actually need the capital for, which obviously helps us kind of get an understanding of the trade. And so part of the reason, like, why, you know, why they're such a demand for USC, you know, I think there's really three reasons. So one is when you're in a bull market, a lot of the institutions want to be able to get leverage on their existing long positions. So they might be holding BTC and they want to be able to borrow cash or USC against that position to kind of increase their holdings on their existing holdings. The second is really for trading working capital. And so this is one that's not as obvious. And so, you know, there's a lot of, because of how kind of inefficient crypto market structure can be, and especially trading infrastructure, there's a lot of arbitrage opportunity that kind of sits in the middle. And so if you're an experienced quantitative hedge fund or sophisticated trading firm, you can really use that capital to exploit those differences in kind of arbitrage opportunities in the market. Yet they're not really taking a directional position. So an example of this would be a trading firm that sees that, you know, futures might be trading opportunities, well above the spot market. And so they might not have a long bias or short bias, but they want to

basically borrow cash to go buy spot and actually sell the future capturing the basis or premium that exists between those markets. And so we can kind of understand what our borrowers are doing with the cash, realize that they're not actually taking, you know, a long position or a short position, but they're really just kind of capturing the arbitrage or the inefficiency that exists within the market space. And there's a lot of demand for trades like that. You know, it also might go towards market makers that are just posting, you know, bids and offers on exchanges and they want to kind of provide more liquidity to the space and actually increase volumes across exchanges. So that's kind of the second use case. And the third would be just other corporations that kind

of have their operations centered around Bitcoin or stable coin where they just kind of need working capital to run their business. So an example here could be, and this is more on the Bitcoin side, but this could be like a remittance company or ATM company where people will use their platform and they actually have obligations to send DIP point out, whether it's an ATM company or a remittance firm. And so they'll actually borrow BTC from Genesis just as float for a day or two to make those settlements. And then when they get the payment from their borrower or from their user, they basically replenish that with Genesis. So that's that's kind of the third example. So there's kind of all these interesting use cases in crypto that don't really exist in traditional

financial markets because they've been around for much longer. They're much more efficient. There's a lot more kind of cash in the system already, squeezing out some of those opportunities that exist today in crypto. So the more cash we can kind of bring into the market, you know, the better, you know, kind of running these markets will be. It kind of sounds like it's helping contribute to hitting a bit of an equilibrium. Because again, like you said, you wouldn't see the types of arbitrage opportunities in traditional markets, typically that you see in cryptocurrency because, you know, you'll look at it. one exchange and the price is way off sometimes. And, and, and I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely has it hasn't yet come into its own and become like a really mature market, but it sounds like this is

helping to try and establish that. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's great because, you know, you know, you know, this is why we're super excited to partner with what and that, you know, it offers a great yield to investors. And then, you know, using Genesis as kind of risk management and tenor in the space and understanding of the market structure and the relationships we've built, you know, we can do this and basically provide really good risk-adjusted returns for investors that want yield on cash. And so we've been doing it for a while. The model's tested. We've managed this through very high volatile periods. And so because of those inefficiencies that we just talked about, you know, it's a really good time for folks that are sitting on, you know, USD to start earning on

that via USC. So I guess I'll defer to Adam here then. Who is there like a primary market that you're targeting this towards? I guess what I'm what I'm trying to get is obviously there's there's the the Latin American use case, which I'd like to dive into a little bit more. But your typical bit coiner, do you see this as something that they they may be interested in? Is this?

And what kind of if yes, then. And what kind of a use case do you see that as? Like what what, what, what, what, what, Bitcoiner looks and goes, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna dabble in this. I'm gonna hold some Bitcoin like what's what's your typical use case? Or what are you seeing interest wise from that? Yeah, I'd say broadly like Bitcoiners are smart people. So they they're financially savvy and what this offers is to

we hope people try it can reference like a Canadian for example. you know, this allows you to have U.S. dollars in your portfolio or U.S. dollar-backed equivalency in your portfolio. So now you have Canadian dollar savings, you have Bitcoin savings, and it's a way to get a very attractive U.S. dollar-based yield. And so I think that that's a use case in Canada. If I can talk about the developing economies, the good thing is it's open for any amounts. So when we set up the account, we specifically designed it, so there's no minimums. You can put $1 of USDC in the account if you'd like to. And it scales up to there's no maximums either.

So there's no mins, there's no max, and there's no set tenders. So you don't have the typical, okay, if you commit for X amount of time, you get this amount and the complicated structure. We really want to set this up to be as simple as possible and for people to really test it. And I think we'll see people try a little bit, get comfortable with the service, increase it over time. And the other thing we want to make sure to do is make it easy for people to get access to USDC. So in different markets, we're setting up different onboarding partners that can give a shout

out in Canada to Patri. They're a partner that we're setting up where you can go send e-transfers to buy stable coins. And in other markets, in Mexico, for example, we're partnering with Solidus and other areas throughout Latam. So we want to make it really easy so that people can get right into the ecosystem. And then we hope to once people get, you know, maybe you can get a non-coiner into USC because it's closer to, in their minds, closer to traditional cash than Bitcoin. And then from there, they become a bitcorner.

So I think there's a lot of things that this helps in the ecosystem and we're excited about it. That's an interesting angle, actually. I hadn't thought of that where, you know, you have your traditional, your traditional retail kind of individual that they're not getting any return on their savings account. There may be a little shy to dive into investing in equities and stuff like that, but they do want a little bit of a return on their dollars. They want something a little bit more stable, but they want just to see their money kind of working for them for the course of the year. Maybe they're not yet down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, but they see that they can get a pretty

damn attractive interest rate on whole. holding the global reserve currency that may be, I don't want to use the term Trojan Horse because that sounds malicious where this is not. But it's a way to kind of plant that seed where somebody goes, okay, I'm interested in this and then they see Bitcoin and they start reading and they start learning about, well, what is Bitcoin? Why is it here? What was the, why was it even created in the first place?

And what is sound money? they get down that rabbit hole, they really start, really start learning. And so it's almost a different way of orange-pilling people to come in to pick. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. So now I did want to, and this could go to either of you, but I did want to touch a little bit more on the Latin American side of things. What exactly is contributing to this need? down there, like you were talking about the currencies being devalued. What's, what's happening on the ground there that's, that's really causing these, these problems that's contributing to, to people's currencies being devalued. Like, I, like Argentina, I'm looking at the number here that I

had, what, over 50% change in, in, what is this, since March? Is that correct? Yeah, I think it's actually That's the increase from the nominal rate in Argentina pesos to the current nominal rate. I think if you look at the evaluation, it's about 30%. Because it's just the inverse of that. Look, I'm not a, I guess, global economist, so I don't want to overstate my knowledge of this subject area. But I think generally it's lack of trust in the government-backed currency. And history kind of repeats itself.

So I think Argentina has been through some crisis before with their currency. You know, anytime you have uncertainty, then, and now there's, it's, it's becoming more and more frictionless like our USC account to move money into these products and into the dollars. So I think when, when you know one is going to be around and the other one, you're just not certain to, you'll take that current exchange rate jump to go in and then more people that move over, it just kind of spirals. So, you know, I think that, you know, from speaking to Mauricio de, every day, the situation in Venezuela is, of course, quite different than Argentina, you know, unfortunately. But, you know, again, just general lack of trust in local currencies. Matt, I'm not sure if you have anything to add. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think you sum it up perfectly.

Yeah, and totally agree with that. I think there's just the history of mistrust and kind of governments in the Latin American region. and now is a better time than I need to, you know, have a product that basically gets you access to, you know, the US dollar, but, you know, on the blockchain. So I think it's just there, it's a great time to kind of offer a product like this. And I think it's going to get a lot of traction. Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was going to say it's, it's interesting now that that money is kind of starting to very much become speech itself. and become literally just lines of code.

And it's kind of breaking down these barriers and giving access to people to stores of value and places to put their wealth that they had no access to before. And again, Adam, you were saying that you can have as low as a dollar in one of these accounts, which again, opens it up to people that had no real feasible way of actually saving and preserving their wealth, or it was very difficult to do so before. Now maybe not so much. And so it's, do you see this, this kind of freight train of innovation continuing? Do you see this kind of globally giving people access to sounder stores of wealth?

And if so, what happens? What happens then? Like, do governments have to reconsider their monetary policies? Do we see change in policy? or is it just the it trends towards the soundest money like do you i mean i know i know you you don't want to fully fully dive in macro but i mean are you seeing trends are you seeing interesting things of people's uh behaviors given this new access to putting their wealth in in new vehicles you want to jump on that one now yeah sure thing um so i think like you know

from from our perspective, there's really like a spectrum of, you know, a certain country's monetary regime where that is from a, you know, on the spectrum of, you know, misguided, heavy inflation, you know, history of mistrust versus the opposite. And so I think, you know, in the countries and kind of regions that are on the end of the spectrum where they really don't, you know, are starting to kind of lose trust in the system and lose trust in their government, they're going to be more adopting of Bitcoin, you know, as Bitcoin really is, you know, in our minds, you know, the hedge against, you know, inflation, kind of, you know, tight controls from a monetary perspective. And so I think it's going to start in the regions that kind of have, you know, a rich history and kind of

of dealing with that and that have been on the losing end of that. And then obviously, you know, might not immediately see the adoption in the U.S., you know, in terms of like investors porting into Bitcoin there and the actual practical use cases of it as a hedge against the U.S. government and the printing of money, even though we obviously did just pump $2 trillion into the system, you know, there's still a level of trust in the in the U.S. government and the U.S. dollar. That's going to take a lot longer to play out from a hedge against that perspective versus some of these other developing, you know, regimes and nations.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely interesting to see how this plays out. It seems like it's almost like you guys have kind of set up. up a roadmap of stops along the way to Bitcoin. Leading people down the path, you can visit this train station and that train station. And then the last stop is Bitcoin land. So yeah, but it does seem like there's a flow of, you know, exiting perhaps hyperinflationary situations into sounder and sounder money. And I mean, we've seen it play out over.

the headlines, you have major head funds and investors that are now picking up Bitcoin as as a direct response to even monetary policy in the U.S., because they're looking beyond what, you know, the current situation to what the potential future situation down the road could be. Yeah, and it seems like you guys have just kind of said, like, start here and then kind of those stops to get to get to Bitcoin. So it's really cool to see. Now, I did want to touch to obviously, you know, we've talked about the potential positives here. I didn't want to touch on any potential risks in using this because obviously everybody's going to have questions about like what are my risk factors here. What happens when I put money in? You know, what

what guarantees do I have? What guarantees do I not have? What do I need to consider when I'm, when I'm utilizing a product like this? So I'll toss it up to either of you. Like what would you like to touch on here. So I can talk about the flow of how the USC and Bitcoin comes in, and then I can pass it off to Matt to talk about the boring and lending activity. So I think when you create a USC or Bitcoin account on Linden, specifically around the savings accounts, but it's similar on the loan side. Everyone has their unique deposit address. So that's generated directly through our custodian with Bitcoin directly in cold storage. So if you deposit USTC onto LEDA.

It's going into a direct-co storage Bitcoin address that's insured by VICO's overall policy. Then when we have enough aggregated, we move it over in individual loans to Genesis and loan the portfolio or the loan

the available float to them. And then I'll pass it to Matt to talk about the actual activity when it's being borrowed, but that's the flow just as it stays within the Lennon ecosystem. It is secured and insured in there. That's great. And then, you know, basically when, when kind of Genesis takes over that capital, you know, it really kind of runs right through our risk framework. So that starts with just kind of who we're doing business with. Like I mentioned previously, you know, we're an institutional focused firm. So we're only dealing with really large organizations. These are some of the largest trading firms, hedge funds and corporations in the space. We're really kind of selective in who we do business with. And we have a very robust underwriting and kind of risk management system. So that's, we're really kind of selective. And we're really kind of selective. And we have a very robust underwriting and kind of risk management system. So, The first part of that is, you know, doing kind of a full assessment of, you know, who that borrower

might be, you know, what kind of firm are they? What does their history look like? What does their management team look like? All the way through, you know, getting access to their financial statements and understanding how well they're capitalized as an entity, how much cash do they have in the bank. And then obviously, sizing the loans that we make to these counterparties, you know, in the right way based on kind of all of those qualitative inputs. And then from there, obviously, we have a very robust kind of collateral management.

system as well. And so when we make, you know, USDC loans, we're getting kind of, you know, collateral in BTC or ETH or other crypto assets that, you know, we can kind of value at a level that's oversecured. And so once those collateral assets come in, we're basically looking at that live time and we're saying, okay, as prices move around, you know, we can automatically ask for more collateral or force liquidate positions. And so we're never really in a position where we can be at a loss. And so we've kind of built out tech and, you know, our engineering team has kind of built a really great suite of products for us to manage that lifetime. And, you know, we put that through obviously stress tests in the live environment. We've been through some serious drawdowns in price.

We've been operating for about two years now and we've had no capital losses, no defaults, and no delinquencies. And so, you know, running a roughly a billion dollar book, you know, while kind of keeping a very clean sheet like that has been a huge success for us. and, you know, we do feel like our risk management process is definitely our strong suit. And, you know, we're going to obviously continue to invest in that. And I'm sure we're going to have more stress tests like we've had in the past, you know, high volatile times. And so getting this right has been something we've, you know, we've spent a lot of capital and time on. So how little sleep did you guys get during that mid-March dump? Yeah, I would say it was a very, very focused period of time, a lot of late nights.

But it was really good stress test for us. Obviously, we needed our operations team to be working. You know, at its peak, we needed our risk management systems to be working. So everything on both the human capital side and the technology side went really well. We faced, like I said, no defaults, no delinquencies, a very orderly kind of de-leveraging period of time. So working kind of hand-in-hand with our borrowers to right-sized positions, get more capital in the door, meet our obligations. So like I said, it was super focused for time, no doubt. But it went really well.

We're really kind of confident now coming out of that period in what we've built and who we're working with. Now, it's very interesting that I just wanted to touch on in contrast it. Because you guys very much, you straddle the line of traditional finance and this kind of new upcoming Bitcoin economy. And so I'm sure, like part of it I wanted to touch on on the regulatory hurdles and what you're faced with. But before I wanted to dive into that, I wanted to ask about kind of your risk management and how that's treated differently, given that you're dealing with, especially in terms of Bitcoin, that you will be dealing with assets that are indeed finite. and, you know, you don't have, like, if shit goes sideways, frankly, there's no central bank, there's no lender of last resort. So, so how does that affect your risk management when dealing with said assets? Are you a lot more strict and have kind of more interesting ways of dealing

with that when, again, like margin calls happen? Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, anytime we're kind of lending out, dollars for Bitcoin. You know, we're pretty conservative on the collateral ratios that we can accept. And so a lot of the times, you know, where we're basically in a position where we have enough collateral on hand to face a 50% move in price before, you know, there's the possibility of us going, you know, underwater not having enough capital from that borrower. But obviously, before we get there, we have, you know, automatic kind of trigger levels where our borrowers are getting noticed saying, hey, we need more capital in this amount of time period. Otherwise,

Genesis basically has the right to then protect the firm, protect, obviously, obviously are lenders and close that position out. And then, you know, having and being very close and set up to one of the largest O.D C trading desks in the space through our other entity Genesis trading, it gives us that liquidity and ability to quickly close positions, even in really large size. And so, you know, the kind of combination between having that access to liquidity, having kind of the, you know, conservative levels of collateral that we've set. And then also like a really good kind of understanding of what our counterparties are doing,

where their exposures might be, how much capital they have to back up those positions, kind of puts us in a really good spot to kind of manage through that pretty well. Awesome. And then I guess I'll ask Adam, you as well, given that you guys, again, based in Canada, based in Toronto, as a firm doing what you do, what kind of regulations and assurances are demanded of you in order to offer these types of services? Yeah, sure. So it's really broken down into the different activities. So it's jurisdictional. So we actually do a lot of work in following the compliance in both Canada, obviously being based in Canada as well as each country that our customers or clients are resident in. So it's a lot of work keeping up with everything, but it's really activity based. So for lending, say there's different requirements then for the activity surrounding Bitcoin. So the broad one is all of our. our clients are KYC for better or worse. I know that has different views in the Bitcoin community,

but it's part of following regulations. We have to do it. So we KYC every client regardless of the amount. And then the lending rules are state by state or province by province and very specific. So an example I always use is, let's say that the state of Pennsylvania in that state, you have to be above loans above $50,000 do not require a license to lend and loans below $50,000 do.

In Canadian provinces, there's no specific lending licenses, but we do need to still follow KIC and AML rules. So there's a waft of different pieces depending on the activity and we follow them very closely. This is very intricate. You've got your work cut out for you then. Yeah, and we have a chief compliance officer that says his full-time job. Awesome.

Awesome. Now, before we kind of to wrap here, is there anything else that you guys wanted to touch on in relation to what you're building here, whether it be specific to a certain area of the globe or just blanket? But Adam or Matthew, if you guys wanted to touch on anything else, now's the time. I just ended off with saying, you know, we're very excited to launch this product. Genesis is an amazing partner and we couldn't be more thrilled to launch it in collaboration with them. We very focused on making the product simple and easy to use. And as always, if you have any suggestions on how we can do better, please feel free to reach out.

We're working hard to build products that make Bitcoin and other digital assets easier and simpler to use. Awesome. Matt, I'll toss it to you if you have any any, Parting words that you want to touch on. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I echo Adam's sentiment there. You know, we're super thrilled to be working with Adam and his team. You know, we think they've done an awesome job so far.

I'm just building a great product and, you know, having the right people to kind of lead this effort. You know, and we think it's just a great kind of synergy and partnership here. You know, we've been in the space for a long time doing this. You know, we understand the nuances of it. And we're happy to kind of help provide that expertise, understanding of the market structure to a product we think is going to do really well. So we think this is a great opportunity and we're super excited to be part of it. Awesome.

And I guess before I wrap one last time, Adam, can you let everybody know, obviously I'll have the links down below, but can you let everybody know where to find you and Leden, whether it be social media, whatever else you want to toss out there? Of course, yeah. Letton is leaden.io. My Twitter is Adam Reads, all just one word, and Ledin's Twitter is Hoddle with Ledden. Awesome. And Matt, you? Cool. Yeah. Our website is just geniscap.com. Our Twitter handle is at Gen underscore Capital. So you can find us there. Awesome. Awesome. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for chatting.

I'm sure there'll be questions in the comments and everything. This will be going out audio only as well on the podcast. But as always, I hope you guys really enjoyed this. And be sure to leave any questions and or comments down below. And I'll try to hit on them next time I have you guys on, which I would love to do anytime. So thanks, guys. Perfect. Awesome. Thanks so much, Ben.

I really appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you guys so much for watching. As always, if you are here on YouTube, please do remember to hit like, subscribe, and share. But also, if you're here on YouTube, then please do check out my other platforms that I stream to. I'm on Twitch. I'm on Facebook. I stream live to Twitter, D-Live Library, a whole bunch of different places.

Also, there's audio-only versions of the podcast on pretty much any podcast platform that you subscribe to. Outside of that, if you want to help with the show in another way, you can hit up Leden down below. There's a link there where if you opt to get a Bitcoin back loan with them, they will give you $50 worth of Bitcoin for free. And secondly, there is a link for Ledger, a hardware wallet device that helps you see. secure your Bitcoin. It's always good to, if you're holding Bitcoin in your own custody, to make sure it's not on a hot internet-connected device. So be sure to check that out. And other than that, I've also got some other links where you can buy and sell Bitcoin in Canada and a bunch of other useful things that you may find helpful. If you really liked what you saw,

you can always draw me a lightning network tip at my tippin.combe page. That's tippin.combe at BTC Sessions. With that, I'm out. Have yourself a wonderful evening, a wonderful weekend. and I will see you next time for your daily session.