BTC Sessions - Bitcoin & MSTR COLLAPSING — Bull Run Already OVER? | Tuur Demeester, Guy Swann, Pete Evans

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Bitcoin and MicroStrategy are both taking major hits—so is the bull run already over? Tuur Demeester, Guy Swann, and Pete Evans break down what’s really happening, what comes next, and how investors should prepare.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/peteevanschefxhttps://x.com/TheGuySwannhttps://x.com/TuurDemeesterFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCpCRYPTOCLOAKShttps://qrco.de/bg5Dvo#btc #bitcoin #crypto

Bitcoin is down $10,000 from its recent high. Microstategies stock is underperforming compared to Bitcoin. And some are whispering that the bull run is already dead. But not so fast because there are some major tailwinds that say otherwise. As per usual, explosive money supply growth, 4.1K access on the horizon, and another interesting little leading indicator that happens to be flashing green that we'll discuss in a moment. Joining me today to unpack this and much, much more, the legendary analyst Tour Demeaster, dropping a brand new report on the state of the market, the smooth-spoken Guy Swan host of Bitcoin Audible,

and Pete Evans' world-famous celebrity chef turned unapologetic truth-teller. This is one session you don't want to miss. I am Ben with the BTC sessions, and this is your bullish session. All right, I want to welcome to the stage, Tour de Mistre, Guy Swan, and Pete Evans. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. And I want to get us started with a little bit of something to chat about, you know, whether or not the rumblings in the Twitterverse are overblown is the Bull Run all but dead. And I just want to kind of bring up just a couple quick things and then just get your

your thoughts on how we're doing. So I mean, yeah, Bitcoin, I'm not really sneezing at 114K myself, but we are down about 10 grand from the high that we had just a week ago. We see a lot of sentiment like this on Twitter where we have, you know, how we doing, gents, you know, funny enough, It's a 24-hour chart, but, you know, micro strategy has been underperforming Bitcoin a little bit, whereas it used to kind of lead it. But on the opposite side of things, Canada, as per usual, printing tons of money, a brand new M2 money supply record. And that puts us at around 8.5% per year since 1968 in money supply growth, which is wild.

Of course, at the Fed, if this even loads, as per usual, it looks like as Lynn would coin it, nothing stops this train. And of course, we've got some other tailwinds. Of course, we've got the 401k options opening up with access to Bitcoin. Bill Miller says that just one percent of the $60 trillion in global retirement accounts could boost Bitcoin's price by up to $30K just from that. And then the other interesting thing is gold has been on an absolute tear and has historically been a little bit of an leading indicator for Bitcoin. And so if history repeats itself, we could see some interesting spikes there. So my question to all of you gentlemen is, is it over? Are we all done?

Should we just pack it in? Is Bitcoin done? I'll let you guys chime in. Yeah, I mean, just based on pure gut feel, I wouldn't say it's over, but of course, that's not worth much. Yeah, no, I mean, one of the things that I think could, you know, turn this cycle bearish, because that's, I think it's obvious we're in a bull market. It's been, you know, two years. Prices have, what, 4x, 5x so far. So I think if you're going to be bearish, you have to kind of come up with a scenario where something changes.

And I think that if there's a general market crash, like if the, you know, the Trump story somehow breaks down, we get a massive crash in the stock markets. I can see Bitcoin being pulled down. That's why even though I am very bullish, I've been expressing my bullishness, especially in gold and in commodities. So like Bitcoin expressed in commodities, Bitcoin expressed in gold. because we could have a down year or so in dollar terms, even though we've had two market crises now with massive bailouts, like 2008 famously, but also 2020. And I think everybody is just totally assuming there's going to be huge bailouts

whenever there's a crash, probably even kind of into the crash. They're going to try and print money. It seems like they get more and more aggressive. But yeah, I mean, expressed in gold, Bitcoin has been breaking up. So we're above one kilogram of gold per Bitcoin now, which was a four-year resistance level. And then also expressing commodities, we see the same thing that we were in this holding pattern for four, four and a half years. And now we've broken above that.

So with a bullish setup like that, I just don't feel ready to pack it up and go home. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think any of us are going to be turning around and walking out the door anytime soon. Pete, I want to ask you, I know you're not stern at church. Well, maybe you are stirring at charts every day. I don't know, but I know you're not typically analyzing the market or anything. But in your general sense, just how you've been feeling, you know, are you feeling

dejected right now? And are you getting any little chirps in your ear from perhaps if you still got Normie friends kicking around? What are you hearing from them? Are they asking about Bitcoin? Is it dead silence? how have you been feeling this past a little bit? Yeah, well, thanks for having me on and great to be with everybody

and everybody that's watching and listening to. And yeah, it might sound a little strange Pete Evans being on here, but I've been orange-pilled for over five years now, thanks to Alex Fetzky and so many others in this space. And it's been such a wonderful journey for me to learn so much. But my wife and I have been running a wellness and cooking retreat for the last four and a half years. And we just announced this week we're going to be doing a Bitcoin and wellness retreat.

And the reception to that was just so cool. And it's probably something for the beginners to get their teeth stuck into. And we're doing it with one of the legends in the space here in Australia, the Bitcoin advisors. And that to me is a great signal or noise or whatever you want to call it coming through. because it feels like, I mean, you guys have been in the space for so long, and we can feel like I've only been in here for five years, but there's so many people out there that they don't know enough about it or anything about Bitcoin yet.

So just that announcement this week and then the feedback that I'm getting from people here in Australia, it's a positive thing for me that, because that's always been my, I thought is like how do we orange pill the population? You know, that, that, and I, it's happening organically and it's happening through the work that you guys are doing. And obviously, part of the orange pulling process is the mainstream media by putting out the, the fad all the time. And, and I say that because they used to do that to me when I was promoting healthy dietary philosophies.

And they'd always write the complete opposite of what I was talking about. And they seem to do it with Bitcoin. And the reason I say that is so many people saw through the bullshit that was being spoken about through the mainstream. So I'm always applauding when they do that because more and more people will start to see it. Because then they're looking at the charts or they're hearing from people like yourselves. And they're like, that doesn't really make sense. So then they start to orangeville themselves and they go down the adventure. So I'm bullish.

I've been bullish for five years, even through all of the dips, because once you understand it, it just makes so much perfect sense. And now the key is how do we, it's not how do we orange pill everybody else because they will get it when it's their time. You know, when the pain outweighs the, when the pain becomes too much. And so that's all I'll say at the moment. I'm bullish. I've always been bullish. I like that because if you, if you.

know just even a little bit about Bitcoin. Listening to mainstream media coverage of Bitcoin is an excellent way to figure out that mainstream media has no idea what they're talking about most of the time. And they're so confident. Yeah. So certain. That was my moment of, it was when Mount Cox collapsed, that was my moment of, that was my moment of, oh my God, they literally have no idea what's going on because the reporting

was Bitcoin's hacked and it's over. And I'm like, no, business just lost everybody's money. Like they left their money with that entity and they, you know, somebody stole it. It's like, oh, wow. Have you ever listened to a Bitcoiner? Yeah. Have you ever? Did you?

And I was so new. I was so brand new to Bitcoin. I was like, I am a hundred percent certain. This is 100 percent incorrect. But it was just an eye-opening moment for me. And I think many bitcoins have those moments. But Guy, I guess I'll pause at the question to you last. Is it over?

How are you doing? I mean, I'm doing great. I'm constantly, I mean, I'm not shocked. That's a ridiculous thing to suggest because it's exactly how everybody on Twitter. I will not even think like this is not, there's barely even a red candle. And I mean, if you just, I mean, I have the only sharp. 9% from the all-time high. What? Like, right?

And like, the only chart I ever even look at is a log chart. And you can't see this on it because, again, it's 9%. It's not even a full correction. Like, if you just really kind of look at the bounces, we could go all the way down to 100K again. And we'd still kind of be on trend. So, yeah, this is this is the noise that you get on social if you listen to people. worried about the price because God, I don't even know. I don't even know how it just not been here for very long or never looked at it very

seriously. If you were concerned and you were looking for some confirmation that is indeed over because you've just gotten Bitcoin for the first time and you're really panicking about stress, high stress. The dip. Welcome. Welcome as a new bit coiner. There's been many people coming through here and we're here to tell you it's not over.

Sit tight. This is normal. You will be fine. You shall endure. This is actually pretty chill. Yeah. This is like, this is super chill.

The days of old, mid bull run, we just like get chopped in half for a little bit. There's like 30% days. Yeah. Yeah, this is nothing. It does feel a little bit different.

It's like a slower grind up and, and definitely not nearly as bad on, on the drops either. So there's there's a you know so far this cycle there's definitely a dynamic shift in terms of the how pronounced the movements are and how quickly things happen. But you know, the general trend is still our friend and you know, you can still just be good at something, spend less than you earn and saving money. Nobody can print and it'll be a cheat code for life. So so thick or set. Because there's so many institutions involved, you know, like they're just ironing out the volatility more.

They're just, that's their jobs is to buy the dip and try to get the cheapest price for the clients as possible. And I don't think retail is really in this market yet. No. Like a bit. I do sense for the first time, you know, people that are that, that are not usually interested in Bitcoin, they're asking about it a little more. And maybe, you know, do you have a good book recommendation or something? but it's not like a FOMO type of reaching out. I don't know how it is for you guys.

Same. And actually, you know what? For the first time this cycle, I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. Everybody's so nihilistic about everything in terms of like, oh, I'm never going to have a house. I'm never going to start a family. I'm never going to retire kind of thing.

That Fiat World has put them so deep into the gambling mindset of like the only way I'm going to make it out is hit the lottery, that Bitcoin, they perceive as not risky enough. Like that's that's kind of where we're at. And I think most people do not realize that Bitcoin is just a return to, again, being able to just save your paycheck, like spending less than you earn and just save in the very money that you're earning and not have to become a professional investor to

make it. So, you know, something that just gets me is I can't believe how hard. hard how difficult it is to get people to realize that stuff is supposed to get cheaper over time oh my god yeah that like the only reason we go do stuff and improve things like like nobody is happy if at the end of the day things are worse than they were at the beginning of the day and that's why like 95% of the time when we go to work or we go to do something we're actually making it better sometimes you know crap happens and you we're we go back and we have to fix an alternator we have to do a thing, but then we get it back and then we make it better.

But somehow nothing is more accessible from a monetary perspective. Like those two things are not, there's some sort of a disconnect because those should be the same. If it's easier to make a TV today than it was last year, it should be cheaper. If it's easier to build a house today than it was last year, it should be cheaper. What the hell? Why is our money not reflecting? It's a measuring system. It's a measuring system.

If stuff gets bigger, it should measure bigger. If stuff gets more valuable, it should measure more valuable. If stuff gets easier to make, it should measure cheaper to make. Why the hell is a measurement system sucks so bad? What's disconnected? And like people don't. It's like, oh, you have to get it more expensive because it's good for the economy. What the hell's the economy?

It's just a bunch of people. If it's shittier for people and it's good for the economy, what are you doing? Yeah. Just anyway. When you ask somebody, something like, do you think it's become, far easier or far more difficult to manufacture a can of Coke. And they're like, well, obviously it's gotten a lot easier. Like, you know, we've got, it's so much easier to, you know, create a metal can and create

the whatever. And and then you're like, so why is it, you know, 20 times as expensive? You know, why is, why did the price of a nickel can of soda not drop to 4 cents or three cents or two cents? and instead is $2, and they don't have an answer for that. There's no, it's like, or they're like, well, people are just greedy and they're charging more. That's the, there's no exploration beyond the first order effects, but. To be honest, guys, I don't know if I should believe you, because I'm not hearing any jargon.

Like, where's the 15 academic papers that you guys have published in the last 10 years? What about aggregate demand? Yeah, I agree. Did you see Kenneth Raghav today on Twitter? Yes, I had to retweet that. Okay, I had to retweet that, master. Can you give a little, who is the guy? And what did he say?

Yeah, so Ragoff is famous for especially, I believe, research on government debt levels. And at some point, there was this kind of general idea that once governments go above 120% debt to GDP, they're basically toast. And then it seemed I believe if I remember right that was kind of an an accurate result from his research but then he thought that was too radical and so he like kind of walked it back later but anyway like you know really famous famous economists in many ways and Reinhardt and Rogoff like that was his co-author on really government debt situation very relevant research really And so back in 2016, he published, it's weird because we would think like, you know, he knows about debt. He knows about money printing.

He'll be pretty neutral or positive about Bitcoin. And then he wrote this like this piece that was like slamming Bitcoin back in 2016, saying that it was either going to be worth $100,000 or $100,000 and that it was probably more likely to, you know, be all the way down and be worthless. And so now he has this like kind of kind of. acknowledgement that yes, we reached 100,000 and I was wrong, but the way he's saying it is basically saying, well, I couldn't have known that the government wasn't going to shut it down. I thought the government was going to take care of this and all this black market stuff, but they didn't do a good job shutting it down.

And what's worse, I couldn't have known that we have this crazy president who's buying billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin. So it's kind of become the worst apology ever. And so I guess that's why people were talking about it. It's funny because... It was definitely everybody else was wrong. Apology. Yeah, it's like, how could I have known that the soundest money that has ever been created by humans would be in demand?

That's basically the apology. But I digress. Well, jents, I'm going to cap this off. But I, Tour, I want to keep it with you because now, I don't know specifically why you're bullish, but I do know that you've been hard at work and you've been doing some research as well. So I'll just kind of leave it open and I'll tee up with the same question everybody else is going to get. Why are you bullish? Do you mean short term or do you mean like in general, like kind of longer term?

Well, I'm going to let you decide on that. what's most important? What's in your mind right now? What are you focused on and most excited about? Well, I mean, so maybe I'll try and tackle both. I think it's important to just have the big picture in mind. Like, Bitcoin is just better technology, better monetary technology. And so it's just slowly becoming mainstream.

And I think that's really important for people understand because it means that if you invest in Bitcoin, If you save in Bitcoin, you become a hoddler, it can take an enormous amount of mental load away from you and your family in terms of having to constantly think about what to do with your savings. And so like you kind of put in the work once and then you have some maintenance where maybe there's a worry like, oh, what about quantum computing? And then you kind of, you know, you keep studying in that sense. But, but, you know, just understanding that Bitcoin just simply is better money. It is actually scarce and it promotes autonomous saving. I think that's so important to understand because people are, you know, they're having so much stress.

They're losing so much time trying to keep up with the latest on which stocks to invest in, et cetera. And they are sitting ducks because our governments are broke. And the way they are trying to kind of postpone the bankruptcy is via taxation. and taxation is only you can, the best way to tax is whenever something moves. And so we're seeing all kinds of capital gains taxes now in Europe as well and other places in the world. So the moment you sell the stock that did great and then you buy another one, you're going to possibly pay taxes.

So it's important to find something that you can rest in for the next five, 10, 20 years. And I would suggest, based on my research, that Bitcoin is that thing. It's the equivalent of gold in the 19, 18, 17, 15th centuries, you know, in the past. And with the difference that it's emerging, so the value is appreciating faster than gold would have back in the day. And then in the short term, the reason why I think it can be helpful to think about the cycles in the short term is mostly for like just your own sanity. It's like if you are a little bit ahead and you have a little bit of an idea what could be happening. because I mean, I'm bullish, but I don't have a crystal ball. Like, I have my own negative scenarios that I'm prepared for.

But just to kind of have that awareness to be a little bit ahead of the crowd, to me that helps me make better decisions, not necessarily to sell or to buy, but more in terms of maybe even what to expect for, I don't know, just what's possible financially for my family or things like that. So that's why I've been putting out these reports every now and then. and why I talk about the price in the short term, not to encourage this casino type gambling, but more just to try and understand and like I said,

maintain our sanity. Does that help, Ben? Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Guy, I know when we swing around to you eventually, I think you wanted to talk a little bit about that report. Am I correct? Yeah. I was actually, I'm halfway through the audio.

All right. All right. Oh, you're putting it. I'll love it. Yeah. No way. I'm flattered. Yeah.

Thank you. See, you know, match made in heaven. Well, we'll, you know, I don't want to pry any of the key points out of the reports until maybe, you know, I'm sure Guy Swan has thoughts and questions when we eventually get around to that. But, again, you know, you did just release a report on the 10th, I believe. Is that correct? Like a week ago. Yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah.

And so lots of interesting insights in said report about kind of the state of Bitcoin and, you know, what you see moving forward. I found it very, very interesting. But we'll touch on that in a little bit. But to your point, I want to maybe ask Pete if he would echo kind of just the general sentiment of, you know, on a Bitcoin standard saving as a Bitcoiner, has that greatly reduced the stress of trying to figure out what to do with savings and how to approach kind of your long-term financial thinking? Yeah, 100%. And I was never really that fascinated

about money, finance, wealth for probably 45 years of my life. I just thought there was a system and that's the system. And then Bitcoin came along. And I went down that that curiosity to understand more about it. And it's been the best one of the best journeys of my life, I have to say. It's just been such a way to grow a knowledge, my knowledge base in a different field. And I think that's part of what we're here to do as human beings is to accumulate knowledge and whether we share that or not. I mean, that's what we're doing now. But I think that's part of our purpose is to keep growing and to be curious. And I think Bitcoin is one of the most curious inventions in our lifetime. And I mentioned to people that I read about it. I do look at the figures. As you mentioned,

Ben, I read information about Bitcoin probably an hour or a day, which might sound strange to people if this is the first time they've heard about Bitcoin. Like, how can you, what is there to learn about it? And I've been doing that for five years. And I know other people spend their whole day learning about Bitcoin every single day. 40 hours per week, my friend. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I'm only just scratching the surface. But to answer your question, there's this gut feel that once I understood what Bitcoin was,

it just took this this question mark off. my understanding of finance and it just solidified so much to me. And I'm in this for the long haul and I remember the first podcast I ever did on Bitcoin with Svetsky. He goes, be careful of trading. It'll just create stress for you. And if that's somebody's journey and they love the stress and they love that, so be it. I respect their journey.

But I've never traded in it because what I want to do to answer. question is reduce stress in my life. That's that's my intention with everything that I do. What causes stress? Financial instability. Poor health, bad relationships. The list goes on and on and on. So my intention with everything that I do is how do I, how do I reduce stress in my life to get to a place of very deep grounding? And Bitcoin, I believe, so far, has been one of the tools for that plus also looking after my health and choosing where I live and who I surround myself with and the conversations that I have because I do not want to live in that reality of constant, constant fear, constant stress, constant this. So now after being in

this space for five years and living through these dips and the bull runs and the crashes, you know i've learned so much about myself to be able to stay centered and grounded in not only the fluctuations in the bitcoin price but other aspects of my life and other areas of my life as well so it's been a great teacher for me and i have 100 percent trusted in bitcoin and myself to make these choices that i don't trade i just try to want to buy as much as i can when I do have spare, spare money, and then just let it go because it's going to do what it does. And if it's done this for me and probably others to reduce stress in their life, that might be the great carrot that's put in front of people, that this can actually reduce your stress in life

in so many different ways. And I don't think that should ever be underestimated. And, you know, people will come at you and tell you you're fucking crazy because it's this, that. And the other are like, have you actually read the Bitcoin standard or listened to people like yourselves and others in this space that have done the proof of work that have spent hundreds of thousands of hours understanding why this can reduce stress in your life? And if you're looking at it on a day-to-day thing and it crashes or all goes down, like you said, 10,000 from last week, I'm like, fuck, this is awesome. More people can get in there than at the top. Like, it's sort of built into the protocol, if I can say that,

that people get at the price they deserve, as you mentioned. And watching over the last couple of years or three or four years since Sailor doing Sailor things and then watching all the other BTCs or Treasury companies come in, whatever you think about that, I tell my wife every day, I'm like, oh, there's another company that's buying Bitcoin for their balance sheet. Next day, there's another company, and that company just bought another 100 or they bought another thousand. I'm like, it's happening. It might not happen to your desired expectation and timeline, and that's something that I

encourage people or invite people to let go of, let go of your fucking timeline on when you think it will happen. And I'll just finish this last thing. I was on a podcast with a business entrepreneur down in Victoria, which is one of our states in Australia last week. And at the end of the conversation, because we touched on Bitcoin a little bit, he goes, what's your prediction for Bitcoin by the end of the year? I said, mate, I don't do that.

There's other people that do that. I said, it's irrelevant for me and it's fucking stupid for me to actually put a prediction on it because I have no idea. All I know is it's going up over the long. long term, but it could go down over the short term. So why would I put myself in that position of looking like an idiot by predicting something that I do not know the answer to? All I can predict, it will go up, I believe, for the long term. How rapidly that happens depends on so many different factors that I am not in control of. I just have trust. Sorry about the long long time.

Those great. And the one thing that I really liked is you alluded to the fact that when you reduce, when you're no longer worrying about how you're going to put food on the table or, you know, when you've got a cushion. So if something happens to you in your job, you're still okay because you've been saving in Bitcoin. And you have a little bit put away just in case. All of a sudden, that lack of stress in one area allows you to think about how to improve other parts of your life. and thus reduces stress in them as well.

And so having financial fortitude gives you the ability to improve your life in many different ways. It allows you to put your focus elsewhere, which is a beautiful thing. So I want to toss it to guy and allow you to chime in on anything that's been said here before we do a little rotation and get into our next topic. Yeah. And what immediately came to my mind when you started talking about like just the lowering of stress and that feeling that this weight has been taken off is that that is literally money's role. That's what it's supposed to do in society. Like Hayek, Friedrich Hayek, I believe has really hits this home more than anybody else. That talking about money as the ultimate hedge against uncertainty.

We're talking about the good. in society that gives us the most assurance that we can get something worth something later for it. It is the most exchangeable good. It's the most stable good. It's the most still going to be here good. It's the most I can take it with me good. All of the elements that make a good money are all about the fact that it can remain that piece of value no matter where or when you are in the future.

And it's literally the bedrock of societal stability. Because it is that like there is no other good that is more saleable than money. Money is defined as the most saleable of all goods, which means that when you have a money that is artificially being cheated, you're literally taking a bedrock that everybody's supposed to be walking around on so that we can have some sort of a foundation to build our lives on. and you're turning it into quicksand just so you can get the opportunity to kind of like pick their pocket every once in a while and takes and they'll drop something it'll go into the quicksane now i get it and there's this huge system that is literally designed to make life hard and to make us have to struggle to move forward and to actually walk around so that they can actually take that and make their lives easier this huge counterfeit class that is just working again like you know everybody's the analogy of everybody on a treadmill and it's powering the batteries that are flying their jets.

Like it's literally this system to like quietly siphon the stability and certainty of our lives and our futures so that they can be wealthy at a cost that's, you know, one-tenth of what everybody else has to put into the system. And like money's job is to be the hedge against uncertainty. It's to be the thing that gives us some sort of sense that the future. is something we can count on so that we can make agreements, so that we can trust each other, so that I can plan and have a family. And it is no coincidence that birth rates plummet, that hope, that nihilism explodes, that all of these things, all of these like super fundamental things about how people think about life change drastically when your money sucks and when your money's good. And Bitcoin's proving in a, you know,

And this small experiment is proving so well that it does change your perspective. I mean, holy shit. When people talk about like prices going up or whatever, all like I've been like, Mr. Sessions, I've been on a Bitcoin standard for, I don't know how long, how many years now, you and I, you and I are the Bitcoin standard people. Yeah. Yeah. But I've been a Bitcoin standard for years now.

And like I don't, I look at it almost like I'm a spectator. You know, it's like everybody's like everybody's. like, oh, the field's wet and it's awful, like trying to get this ball across the field. And I'm like in the stadium. It's like, oh, man, that looks like a tough game. But, you know, I was like going to have a hot dog. And, you know, I just sit and relax. And like, all of my prices go down over time.

And these little fluctuations, it's like, it's down 9% after it's up 40%. Oh, no, I'm only up. Life is only 30% easier this six months. Like, so it's, it's wild to kind of see. it's wild to feel what the economic theories mean. Yeah. To like to like sit there and be like, oh shit, that's what it means. You know, it's not it's not just jargon.

It's like, no, this like matters in how I see the world. And it's crazy. It's like a literal crash case, right? I mean, everything is compressed in time. Like it's just so, yeah, like, you know, daunting and exhilarating at the same time. And then like you both you guys are. saying the detachment, like you're learning to detach yourself from the spectacle. Yeah, I think those are awesome.

I love that. 100%. Now, we're going to do a rotation. We're going to do another topic here in a second. But I just want to take one second to say, again, we're getting, as of late, a lot of new people kind of coming through the channel, watching for the first time. If anybody is here watching for the first time, thank you for being here. But while it's great to talk about the Bitcoin price and the latest news and all that stuff,

none of it means shit if you don't learn the tools and you don't own your own Bitcoin and actually hold it in your own self-custy. So there's some really basic first steps that you can learn. And I would highly encourage that you go to this page. I created a dedicated page specifically for people all throughout their Bitcoin journey, but you can scan the QR code there or you can go to BTCsessions.ca slash learn and there's going to be step-by-step video tutorials.

So if you're a beginner, there's three videos. If you're an intermediate, there's three videos for you there. If you're advanced, then there's some cool skills that can learn there. But you can at least go and just begin that learning journey because, again, without the skills and without taking your Bitcoin into your own hands,

it doesn't mean nearly as much. You can, we can, you know, we can clap into, into the echo chamber and yay, the price went up. That's, you know, that's all well and good. But if you're not self-custing, if you're not learning the tools, if you're not becoming self-sovereign, then what's it for? So I highly encourage you to check it out. But anyways, I digress. We're going to go give a quick shout out to our sponsors. When we come back, we're going to find out why one of the other gentlemen on our panel is so bullish.

So I will see you guys in just a moment. And if you're enjoying the convo, make sure you hit that like button. We'll be right back. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the US. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC Sessions to sign up today. And you can share your own personalized referral link to earn commissions. If you've been around Bitcoin for more than a minute, you've definitely seen something

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That's a big question, mate. Well, I was met you in Bitcoin Prague and also was, I guess, that Bitcoin Vegas as well. And being at those conferences for six days in total and listening to all the different speakers. I mean, Bitcoin Prague had a very different flavor to Bitcoin Vegas, which I loved. Yeah, it's like going to a different country for cuisine. The menu was going to be different. And Bitcoin Vegas was one flavor. And Bitcoin Prague was a very different flavor. But sitting in the audience and just being a part of that energy and that energy and that,

information made me more not determined but made me more bullish about Bitcoin than ever because they were the first conferences I'd been to and whatever you think about a conference there's definitely a something palpable about being in that environment with people from all walks of life with their own set of skills you know whether it be the miners whether it be the financial businesses that are popping up all over the space, whether it be the new geographical locations in the world that are supporting Bitcoin, whether it be the Nosteraps that are emerging, you know, Spetsky's got a new one called Sattlantis, which I think is just absolutely brilliant. So being in

there and witnessing the, I guess the evolution and the trajectory of some of the small, hardest people I've come across in my life that are putting their talents and skills into creating the Bitcoin ecosystem above and beyond what most people think it is. And that's why we go back to what is there to learn about Bitcoin. And how I see it is we haven't even started scratching the surface of where this is going to go over the next decade or generations. And, And I see such innovation that can only make somebody feel bullish. It's not like everything's set up now, and that's the cap or the limit of what Bitcoin offers people.

What I'm saying is the, I don't like to use the word infancy, but that's how it feels, but a very mature infancy of the potentiality of people haven't even, created or invented where this is going to go yet. And that's what makes me so excited about this space because more and more people are bringing their vision. And I've said this before to people that aren't in the Bitcoin space. I've said, I interviewed doctors for 10, 15 years about long-term regenerative health. And over the last five years, I've broadened that into long-term regenerative wealth and the Bitcoin space. And the thing I see in the Bitcoin space is the individuals in here, they've got such open hearts and open minds and with a vision for the future

that very few can even picture because so many people are in the doom and gloom space. Whereas the Bitcoin is what I see and feel is they have the capacity to build and create a vision for humanity that people can opt into or out of, you know, everything is free will and everything is a choice. People can stay in the existing systems if they choose to or they can opt into what is being developed by some pretty beautiful fucking people at the moment. And that's what I've, again, that's why I'm so bullish because it's not like we've hit us healing yet. I don't even think we're the fucking second second step of the ladder and the ladder is infinite. So, That's what brings me to this bullish space and makes me excited about being a small part of it.

I like it. And I liked your cuisine analogy of the different events. I picture, you know, it's Europe. So Prague, I picture like maybe like a small, a small piece of steak and, you know, some like, you know, classily placed garnish and like a nice. glass of red wine. And I picture Vegas as like a quadruple decker cheeseburger with like sparklers coming out the top, you know, both delicious in their own right, but for very different reasons. But yeah, I mean, like, again, the space, when you, when you go to these events and you meet the people and, and not only meet the people that are there, but realize that they've all come from

other, other professions and have just been drawn into Bitcoin. Like the brain drain is real. People are like I was an astrophysicist and now I want to get a job at a Bitcoin company or whatever it may be. Like that's a real story that I've heard. I had somebody apply to work for the channel who was an astrophysicist, which is hilarious. But, you know, people are so passionate and they have wide-ranging skill sets and they're all just flocking to the Bitcoin space. And I think you're right. We haven't even really begun, as Turer was saying, I don't think, you know, even just this cycle, I don't think there's much in terms of retail yet. So like, obviously the average person isn't, you know, really in tune with what's going on.

But I digress. I'll toss it down to maybe Guy first and then get Tours' thoughts on as well on what Pete said. I think you got muted there. I hit I hit him but I'm like typing in the message bar so just like M M M M but yeah I can't remember who said it it was one of it's like I think it's like drunken Miller I think who was talking about like what convinced him was when he it could be wrong on exactly who but it was one of the much larger long term like famous kind of investors um who was saying you don't bet against the people and it's like the people that I

have talked to who have like got into Bitcoin and are convinced of Bitcoin and are like die hard in Bitcoin are literally the people who like I'm just going to go do a thing and I don't really care what anybody else says and like they're serious about it. Um, and one of the things that like, and I know I've talked about this probably the last couple times I was on the show, um, is the various projects in like this feels like to me when I, when I kind of like study the history of protocols and the kind of the history of technology and money, which I've done hundreds and maybe thousands of hours in various ways on the show, is like one of the things I see all the time is this like cycle of this two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward,

one step back of, of like we, we kind of like shift into this new paradigm or this new way of thinking about things. And then we kind of like band-aid stuff together. And then we find, like a basically a new what the next layer of kind of like failure to complete the puzzle is and a great example is we created this beautiful decentralized network the internet and then we've recentralized into social media because one of the most powerful benefits of the internet was this ability to connect people we started with this space of like we're connecting businesses and we're doing storefronts and all sorts of these things. with websites, but then we realized what we wanted to connect to was people, but we didn't have a protocol for people. We had a protocol for servers. And so when you wanted to create a network of people, you had to go to a platform and create an account, and every platform has a different account and there's a different network and suddenly we're siloed off again. And all the social interactions, again, no protocol, just something on a platform. I like stuff on Twitter and I

thumbs up on Facebook and everything's separate. And one of the things that Bitcoiners as like you can just do things and I'm not going to take I'm not going to you know so many people are like well this is just how it is now platforms control everything and we're going to censor speech and you know we're all going to get canceled for COVID and big owners are like now we just build a protocol and and we've got noster we've got pub key we've got um keat and the pair stack and there are so many things happening in so many little pockets of like I refuse to let this problem not be fixed and one of the things that all of our peer-to-peer technology has not had up to this point was a permissionless way to monetize it was how do you pay for infrastructure how do you have a decentralized

infrastructure that you pay for if the monetary system if the way that you pay them must necessarily be centralized must have jurisdictional limits must have regulatory boundaries you can only ever get as decentralized as your funding. And so BitTorrent, as powerful and as huge as it was in its day, ended up failing. Well, actually, the fact that it was so successful on a system of volunteers is wild when you think about it, when it was like 70% of the internet bandwidth in like 2006 or something crazy like that. And that was for free. What can we actually build when we finally put these pieces together right and i see so many people trying so many different things in so many little pockets and they're all catching steam just a little bit just a little bit and like another thing

solving another problem like eventually these lego pieces are going to go together and it's going to be like the birth of the internet it's going to be like the browser that like finally like you know 10 years after we're talking tcpip the browser comes out and everybody's like bam that's it i'm on it And we went from, you know, 10 to 10 to a million in like no time. I think we're going to see the same thing. I think I think Bitcoin is going to be that additional foundation for the next two steps forward. And I think the way we think about the internet infrastructure today is going to fundamentally change. And there's more pressure.

Pete's a perfect example. There's more pressure than ever of the people who are feeling the consequences of going of the one step back that we've gone. And COVID was such an awakening for so many people. And it's just a matter of building and who builds faster and more ridiculous things than Bitcoiners. I don't know that group of people. That's fair. That's fair. I want to toss it to you as well.

Do you want to tag in here? Hey, man, guy. It's hard to add to that. I mean, it did remind me of Fred Wilson back in 2013. He's like a Silicon Valley VC guy. He got into Bitcoin very early and then later kind of, I think he was more indebted. involved with Ethereum, but he had this great concept of, in line of what you're saying, Guy, the bundling effect, like as things get more mature, it gets more and more bundled into things like media, the, you know, traditional media got very bundled up and monopolized. And then you have a counter movement that's about unbundling and kind of like pulling it all apart again.

And that clearly is what Bitcoin is doing with the financial system. And I don't think we should mourn that eventually there are benefits to bundling to an extent. Like there's economies of scale, there's efficiency gains. But there's always going to be that tension between, you know, monolithic efficiency and what people want, which is usually, you know, something along the lines of freedom. Just that concept always stuck with me, bundling and unbundling. And then I guess about where we are and kind of people's, because it was interesting to hear Pete talk about the event you put together and people excited about hearing about Bitcoin. Maybe it's because I've been more in, I don't know, Western Europe or something, but I sense more like caution.

And I think I think it's important to acknowledge that Bitcoin is pretty widely associated now with the populist right. So it kind of has this political color now, which I think before it didn't really have, it wasn't like left or right. It was just, you know, some weird guys putting together something. It was it was like maybe like libertarian colored, but not really politically colored. And so I do think it's probably a factor in this cycle where maybe even people own it, but they're just more hesitant to maybe talk about it because then all of a sudden they get labeled as being, you know, in this political camp versus the other. And so I just want to keep that in mind as we go forward and things get more kind of hyped up

that maybe it'll look a bit different than previous bull markets. I don't know what that means exactly, but I'm just trying to make it a mental note of like, okay. And also I think another factor back in 2020, 2021, there was a general kind of mania that wasn't really just Bitcoin. It was like Rolex watches and what was it, GameStop and like all these crazy stocks that people were buying. There was a housing bubble happening. It was that $6 trillion. Is that 2026 trillion is what it was. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. But so, you know, and so I think people have some some hangover from that still. And they're kind of like, no, I don't want to get back

into the Bitcoin casino, I feel like there's some hesitance from, so I don't know, I don't know what it means. I just feel like this is going to, this is different somehow. Maybe it's more coming from a conservative impulse. It's like I want to kind of protect my family rather than, you know, let's let's get the dice rolling, which I think is a good thing. I think this cycle is going to be longer than the previous one than the one from 2021. Maybe that's also what's happening is that we're at that four four year mark more or less, between the previous all time high and now. And people have this idea like, oh, well, every Bitcoin cycle has to be four years. So I guess it's over.

Let's pack our bags and go. So maybe that's where, you know, we're all sensing there is this kind of hesitation. Maybe that's where this. This cycle is the cycle of breaking cycle expectations. Like we hit a new all time high before having for the first. time. You know, like the, even in the bear market, we went below the previous all-time high for the first time ever as well. So, I mean, maybe this is the time where, you know, our, our peak is like five years into, you know, maybe it's, it's a completely different ballgame that we're playing

right now. I have no idea. But I will tag into the, the kind of like political side of things. and what people are thinking of it. I mean, like, I guess it's par for the course, you know, a few years ago. If you wanted to make a personal medical decision, you were a Nazi. And today, if you want to make a personal financial decision, you are a Nazi. So, you know, we get, we'll get a few more. Plenty, plenty of opportunity to call the Nazi. Everyone I disagree with is a Nazi.

But nonetheless, I do think that By the way, Pete, is that a red surfboard in the background? Pretty suspicious, my friend. Pretty suspicious. It looks a little Nazi. I'm just saying. I think that given enough time, it will be obviously abundantly clear that Bitcoin is,

anybody can use it. If that isn't already clear to a lot of people, it will be made. So I stand by that Bitcoin being associated with either side of the political aisle is nothing more than a function of when it came to pass, right, when Bitcoin was created. And so people that feel they are more likely to be censored, especially financially, will gravitate more towards Bitcoin. And, you know, the political discourse in the West has been largely left-leaning for the last little while, especially during the early days of Bitcoin up until recently. Now it's, you know, it's pretty divided.

But nonetheless, you get an opposing political party that's not currently in office. And then the one in office that is actively clamping down on freedom money. And so what's going to happen, you know, they're going to, the opposing political party is going to take it. advantage of that. But if you were to go back to, you know, if you were going to go back to earlier points in history where it was maybe leaning to the political right and there was some financial censorship happening going the opposite direction, what would they use if Bitcoin was up and coming then? Probably freedom money, right? So it's just a matter of a matter of when it came to pass. And if you look globally, it doesn't matter really the political leanings of the jurisdiction.

It's who is most likely to be censored. And in all my work with the HRF, it's not a political thing. The Human Rights Foundation sees many instances of people, regardless of political strife, being financially censored by dictators. And what do they want to use? Money that can't be censored. And so, you know, it's only a matter of time before the opposing side of the favorable one right now ends up realizing, oh, this can benefit me. And that the Republicans realize, like, oh, we can't, you know, we also can't censor shit. So I think, you know, that will come home to roost at some point. But nonetheless, gents, it is time to do our final rotation. I'm going to give a quick sponsor shout out before we do.

But Guy, be ready to bring us home. So bullish, I can feel it already. I'm ready for a Guy Swan rant. But if you're watching the show, again, thank you for being here, especially if you're brand new. If you haven't already, please do give the like button a tap. And all these gents, their information is in the show notes so you can give them a follow and keep up with what they're up to.

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We are back in. And Guy, I'm going to be giving you the stage here and teen you up. You've been on here. You might be the most bullish person I know because I've heard more about why you're bullish than I think anybody else. You still hold that title as the most revisited guest. And you're just adding to you. You've been stacking sessions appearances as much as you've been stacking sats.

That's right. Getting close to matching. Exactly. Exactly. So Guy, I'll tee up with the same question everybody gets. Why are you bullish? So this actually has to do with, you know, without saying this time is different. This time is different.

It does feel like. And it's something that I remember. I think I've had a couple episodes in the show six, maybe seven years ago. I don't know. But just kind of like leading up to like shifting away. Like I kind of knew that eventually the four year cycle was going to break. Right. Like no pattern lasts as long as it's recognized.

You know, the longer, the more it's recognized that this is definitely a pattern, the more it breaks down. But also the four year cycle seemed most driven. by the supply schedule, that the enormous amount of both just kind of like excitement and interest around this idea of like the money getting harder, but also that the inflation rate changed so drastically during the having cycles. Well, that has kind of become moot. Like Bitcoin is already the lowest inflation rate of any asset in the world where we broke below gold, I think it was like a few months after the halving or something.

It was like it was like 1.7% or 1.8 or something like that. And increasingly the new supply doesn't isn't really relevant in the price. The price is all about like where we are in like the fundamentals and in kind of like the social, like how people are thinking about it and it's much more of a literal economic cycle than it is a supply and network cycle. And so this has felt more than anything like an institutional bid. And I kind of thought it was going to be last time, but it makes sense that it took way longer. Institutions are usually really, really, really slow, really careful. And there was not really the groundwork laid for them to just go buy.

Like, they're not going to like bring. I was like, okay, I guess I get a cold card and I plug it into my bank. And, you know, like that just wasn't going to happen. There had to be so many things laid out before. they would even feel safe touching it. But I feel like all of those barriers have kind of fallen away. And like TUR said, is we don't, it's like retail's not even really here or not super paying attention.

And there's a lot of Bitcoiners who are all kind of like poo pooh. Oh, like institutions are here in governments. This was going to happen. And they were never going to adopt it. And all I can think is like, like this is where the real problem, like this is where the generational imbalances are. like the problem and this kind of goes to the conversation of like is gold i mean is bitcoin going to become cold 2.0 right are we all going to be you know just using somebody else's point system

and and they're going to re-hypothecate and just like increase the supply and all of this stuff and one thing kind of like digging through um the history of gold um layered money is probably a really good one for this because there was a couple interesting like snippets from bontia's piece um that i thought were like really kind of started to paint this picture was i realized that gold didn't fail because of retail transactions like retail settlement is actually like a really tiny piece of the puzzle um like when you look at the internet i think um the something like 10 trillion i think it was is just is just the internet and it's like eight i think it's like eight it's like eight somewhere between eight to ten trillion is where the internet is expected to be and then just

general commerce and this is for settlement so like how many how much money exchanges hands back and forth um and then just like general retail commerce is like 30 to 40 trillion which like seems huge right but then if you just look at feds and like U.S. equities, it's 1.6 quadrillion. Are you talking about month or per what? For like the amount of money that exchanges hands back and forth to 1.63 or something like that, like $1,630 trillion. And then you look at Forex.

You look at international. And it's 2,700. trillion like two point seven quadrillion dollars exchanging hands and being settled gold didn't fail because of retail in fact gold coins worked in small amounts and were portable for a really long time the first bills of sale and and like the reason the knights templar you know were we're so powerful were because they settled large institutional um contracts with literally like bills the first bills of sale were like 40,000 pounds, which at the time were like 50, like half a million dollars or something like that. Like it was, there were huge amounts, not small amounts. And the, the thing is,

is that like if you don't have like money is a waiting system. If you can't and you, you, you're only actually weighing it if you settle. If you're actually done with the transaction, if what you're putting on the other side is a real thing. And the thing is is that gold sucks when you're talking about a billion dollars how in the hell do you settle a billion dollar transaction in gold you can't it's easy for me to settle 30 dollar transaction in gold i just i can carry it around in my pocket but you literally need a battleship to to to settle a billion dollar transaction not to mention 2.2 million 600 uh 600 thousand of those in gold like you can gold settled a trillion total total that includes jewelry that includes like infrastructure and putting it in cables

or whatever the best it can do in between governments and everything is a trillion dollars Bitcoin settled roughly three to four trillion if you just look at like blockchain it's like four and some change but most of those are like to your own wallet right gold failed because it couldn't work because that 1.6 trillion that 2.6 quadrillion that 2.6 quadrillion, these massive bubbles with these little like retail and gold and Bitcoin underneath it. These things have no weighing mechanism. The only thing on the other side of that balance is I have some gold or I have some dollars. I have some dollars to weigh against these dollars, which is not a measuring system at all. It doesn't mean anything.

And if dollars are just being printed out of thin air and debt is being just issued endlessly, then our measuring system is self-referential. It doesn't mean it's completely, it's complete nonsense. And this is where you get the imbalances where corporations get debt at 0.5% and 1% that makes no sense. Who would ever loan their lawmower at 1%. You wouldn't rent that out. The thing's going to lose $1,000 in value for the year and you're going to get paid $15. like no no resources are available for rent at one percent but you can do that with finance you can do

that with almost a trillion dollars to a bunch of giant corporations that literally it's not it's not about like individual transactions and like i can't settle my milk or my coffee it's about the fact that corporations own businesses at rates that no one would ever give them the business that they're getting access to money that is literally imbalancing generations that is why we owe with debt, oh with interest, the continent that our forefathers conquered. Like we don't own anything. We all, we rent our entire lives. And this has happened across the Western world. That is the area. It's exactly in institutions and governments adopting Bitcoin that Bitcoin starts to settle these things again. And it's already proven that it

can do four times better than gold does today. Sure, gold's 20 trillion dollars, but what the hell's that worth if it only settles a trillion? Bitcoin's worth two and settles four. Bitcoin can scale to 2.6 quadrillion worth of settlement without lightning working, without a retail payment system. But it can balance out the debt markets. Like just multi-sig alone. Multi-sig alone makes it worth $200,300 trillion in a market of collateralized debt.

You can have a bit, you can have entire generations. that aren't cheated out of their future because interest rates are going to be real because you can buy Bitcoin and not think about it. You don't just have to run on this which debt to I choose from which fiat. You actually have a foundation to stand on. You have a bedrock that says,

I don't really have to play. I don't really have to play if I don't want to. Give me a good interest rate or I'm just not going to be there. You can exit. And that scales value. That scales trust and that scales settlement. And that works globally. And it's going to work for small governments and medium governments.

And it's going to work for large governments. And it's going to work for small, medium, and large institutions. And it's going to completely change the nature of the big things because they are going to run up against a wall against their fraud. Their cooking of the books that they've been able to do for a century. And they're not going to be able to do it anymore because the price of Bitcoin will reflect everything, every time they try. And the bigger it gets, the better it gets at it. And that's going to fundamentally change how society moves. Like, who owns what in what country?

We're going to go from like the fiat dominant power is just the one that runs everything. And everybody is just kind of like they're powerful only to how much the big dog, you know, wants them around to actually a dynamic of power again where the second guy is actually second most powerful. And the third guy's third most. And 10 guys who are kind of. mid-powerful are actually going to make a huge difference because they can't be, their whole countries can't be rug pulled on the global financial system.

They can build their own and they can leave and they can say, you know what? I don't really want to play your shit anymore, West. I don't want to play your shit anymore, Bricks. Like, we can start our own thing. We can build our own stuff and make our own agreements and do our own trade. It becomes even playing a fair game where everybody's actually playing the game, rather than everybody's trying to get as close as they can to the referee who has the most power,

who knows the owners, issue all the points. And this, this, this feels like this cycle is that institutional bid where we're breaking into that window. We're, we're, we're looking at that 1.6 quadrillion dollars. And we're saying, we fix this. Like, this is starting to happen. And there's a long, there's a long way to go. But Bitcoin as it is today, fix his gold's problem. And we still get, and Bitcoiners are still just going to sit around and it's just going to be like, I can build a payment system. I can build a better multi-sig. I can build a better Noster. I can build a better pub key and pair and peer to peer. And so we just we just have to fight. We just have to outpace.

We have to scale the tech faster than they can scale the value. And we still get everything we want and it finally puts sound money at the center of the world. I love that. One of the things that you said in and around them running into a wall of their their own. fraud. You know, Bitcoin has historically been very, very efficient at pointing out fuckery. But it's always presented in the news as, as like a negative for Bitcoin, right? Like, oh, this exchange went down and there's fraud here and all. And the problem isn't in Bitcoin itself. It's actually a feature that these institutions that are committing fraud are actually being found out so quickly. Because if you were to look at our traditional financial system, it's just wrought with that kind of garbage.

You know, the people, I mean, the whole monetary base is built on that premise. And so Bitcoin comes along and people try to play these silly fiat games with it and what happens? Exchange blows up, exchange blows up, lending company blows up, you know, whatever it is, whether it be from, you know, Mount Gox to Quadriga to FTX and beyond. It doesn't take long for Bitcoin to shine a light on bullshit that's going down. And I don't think it's going to be much different as Bitcoin sinks its teeth into traditional finance. I think Bitcoin will be blamed for the downfalls of any... 100%. I think it will be look at what Bitcoin has done,

not look at this person that committed all this fraud. And so I think that we'll be able to kind of look at that and internalize the celebration. But we're also going to be on the chop and block here. We're going to have to do. some guillotine on our way to generational wealth here. But yeah, I mean, I'll toss to Pete and then to tour here just general thoughts. But like, Pete, do you think we're headed to a better, less fraudulent world?

Like, is Bitcoin going to bestow that upon us? Are you seeing inklings of that in the quality of the people that you meet in your day-to-day? Do you think we have some time to go? What's your general feel? Yeah, it's another big question to answer. And I would say yes. Again, everybody's on their own individual journey. And yeah, I don't like to, again, predict anything.

But there's definitely more and more people that are fascinated by this topic. And guy, tour, you just, you've shared so much wisdom in this last. there and a bit. Even for me, I'm just like, can you guys just speak a little bit more? I love it. This is my school, and I love being the student of this. Years ago, when I discovered dietary principles and how you could put certain disease into remission or reverse them or increase your vitality in life, you're going back 15 years ago and I was sharing anecdotal stories, thousands of anecdotal stories of people getting off their pharmaceuticals everywhere. I was like, oh, we're here. We're at that point now. Like,

this is non-debatable anymore. Like, this is going to revolutionize the world. It's only a matter of years. This is 15 years ago. And what's happened, it seems like the Western world and the population is becoming sicker, fatter, more reliant on the systems. And I'm sure it's the same thing with a lot of people in the Bitcoin space, they're like, we found it, we've got it. This is the solution. It's only a matter of years till this catches on. Take it from my experience in their, I guess, their health space. It was a very humbling moment because I remember 13 years ago, I'm like, five years time, everyone will be eating this way. That was such a humbling experience for me to actually put that out. there and then it was just it was a slap in the face to me to wake up to the

realization that stop trying to predict what other people will do because they have their own sovereignty and their own free will to do exactly play this game of life how they want to and if people want to continue to eat sort of the food pyramid and shit food and go through that system of pain suffering who am i to judge that just fucking let go of wanting to control the outcome so perhaps these things rhyme or are in patterns something perhaps with bitcoin you know it's like once i discovered i'm like oh shit here we go again we've got it and then five years down the track it's like My mates are still talking about XRP and Ethereum and shit coins.

Fuck. Oh, the pain. Oh, the pain. But it takes me back to that. It's just like, just let go. People can decide to opt into this or they decide not to, you know, perhaps when they've reached that pain, as I said before. And generally, the people that change their diet,

it's usually the point of a diagnosis. or health concern or pain that they're suffering, that is the switch for them or the catalyst for change to happen. Perhaps this has to happen in the Bitcoin space and for people to feel the pain to a point where there's got to be a different pathway for me. That could be human nature and I don't want to put all my eggs into that basket where I believe that pain has to happen for change to happen. I'm a firm believer in prevention. You know, like can we actually prevent the pain from happening? I don't know how it rolls out from this point forward. And I love the mystery of that too. You know, perhaps they, like I've said before, perhaps there'll just be two different sort of

systems running parallel. People are locked into healthy food, healthy wealth. And other people will continue going down the path of pain and suffering because they've got something to learn in that process. I don't know. The mystery is there, the surprise is there. But what I firmly believe is we have all the solutions at hand currently to change our lives. And if we don't, we will develop them like I was talking about before. So I have full trust in myself and the future of the present and also with the past. So I don't know whether that answers your question, but that's my rant. I think so.

And to your point about people, you know, making some perhaps bad financial decisions around chitcoins and everything, you know, pain is an effective teacher. Unfortunately, the XRP army no longer has pain receptors. But other people learn from the pain and will, you know, change course over. time. Everybody does it at their own pace. But yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tur, I want to go to you and just get your general thoughts on anything that Pete or a guy's magnificent rant brought into your mind. Yeah, thanks for both. That was great. I was just now thinking about some of your comments, Pete, I think it's, yeah, it's so recognizable and true what you're saying. It's not because

me as an individual, I start to understand some things about the world that everyone is going to catch on, even though it can save them so much suffering or, you know, like, it doesn't work that way. And I think even Thomas Kuhn said it back in the day when he was like trying to study scientific revolutions initially thinking it's like, oh, it's this linear process. And then it was like, no, actually science progresses one funeral at a time, pretty much. Like, you know, when the when the top-notch guy of the old school dies, then there's room for, you know, so maybe it'll be a little bit like this with Bitcoin where, you know, certain authorities will just have to kind of, you know, make space for a younger generation.

I do think maybe you could argue that money, the sphere of money is a little bit different because everything is so interconnected and like the energy flows so easily in the monetary world that, you know, people say money talks like that. that like it's compared to other areas where you know if you're talking about diet or something like I can of course you know start beaming and be very healthy but like the the effects of that are maybe a little more limited than if I turn into a billionaire or something in terms of societal short-term impact and then the other thought I was having as I was listening to guide talk is that I think what's different about this cycle absolutely right. I agree with you, Ben, as well, that I also thought the last cycle is like, this is the institutional cycle. And no, it was too early. I think this is institutional in the sense that for the first time we're seeing on scale the use of Bitcoin as collateral. And that is just such a powerful thing. If you think about why did real estate become so huge in the entire

Western world, including China as well even, it's because the government kind of likes it as a collateral because it just sits in place, you know, so they can always, somebody can come in and you can take it. Right. It's, it just sits there. So, and so then they organize it so that banks could make, you know, some of the lowest interest rate, longest duration loans on the planet have been mortgages. And that's been this massive fuel for the real estate fire to the extent that I believe over 55,

percent of global wealth is now just tied up in real estate, which it's not a law of the universe. It's just because of that stimulation that it's become that big of a bubble. And I think maybe, I don't know, I'd have to like research more, but maybe that was also a tricky thing about the gold standard is if you wanted to use gold as a collateral, sounds good in theory, but, you know, what if they lie to you about whether the gold is actually still there? It's kind of hard to audit gold definitely compared to Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin is just in a flash you can audit reserves and we should be doing a lot more of it.

I think that's something that these Bitcoin strategy companies should be pushing for us to get real Bitcoin attestations and audits and things like that. But so I think that's a massive tailwind for Bitcoin in this cycle that all of a sudden we have. this fiat system which has the capacity not to say that it's morally justified but it has the capacity to issue debt at half percent interest one percent interests and all of a sudden somebody found a way to to turn that wind and push it into the bitcoin sale and and and it's it's i think we're not even realizing how much on effect this is going to have and i i agree it's going to cause people to blame bitcoin for being the needle that popped the bubble you know, for being the recipient of the wealth transfer, even though we've been arguing for years, even before Bitcoin existed, that, hey, like, this system is kind of unsustainable, this bond bubble, this real estate bubble. You can't just print money willy-nilly and expect no distortions to start happening in the economy. But, yeah, so I've been thinking about that, like, as that collateral.

And people are in disbelief about whether market strategy's strategy is, sustainable, I think it is in the medium term because the bubbles are so ginormous. And we have these institutions that just need yield. They need to earn some interests. And it's becoming incredibly hard to do that with government bonds. They're crashing. So how are you going to beat the inflation if you have all these restrictions where you cannot be invested in very volatile assets?

Well, then you're going to have Bitcoin companies that kind of convert their volatility into yield and sell it to the rest. in the market. So anyway, long-winded story to say, I agree with everyone. I'm very bullish. This has been great company to be in. Thanks to Eat and Guy and Ben. It's been a treat.

This has been fantastic. And gentlemen, I'll give you one final crack. If we're going to round out here a little bit, this has been a fantastic topic. All the topics have been great. So I'm just going to go quickly down the line. if you have any final thought, anything that you want to point people towards to check out. Again, as a reminder, everybody that has watched, please do drop a like on the video, but also make sure you follow all these gentlemen.

All their links are in these show notes down below. You can keep up with what they're doing. But I'll just quickly go down the line. Guy, do you have any final thoughts for today? Anything you want to point people towards that you think can be valuable, keeping in mind that there have been a fair amount of new people kind of peeking in here for the first time. So if you got anything that you'd like to point them towards that can be useful in their Bitcoin

journey, that'd be great. Yeah, of course. Well, usually my introduction for like the show, and you have to dig, you have to dig into it. And we're not quite done with the website yet, but that'll be much more nicely placed. But I think guys take 44 on the show, which, like, 800 episodes ago. But like, you kind of have to dig for it. but it's titled Bitcoin is not what you think it is. And I think that's been my most, like, mentioned and, like, thanked for introduction.

So, like, trying to make sense of, like, what Bitcoin is in your head. So I'll point to that. And then also I'm halfway through Tours' latest research report. So that'll be latest in the feed here. maybe Friday, maybe if I finish it, maybe Monday, something like that. So that'll be coming very soon too. But I do think just generally this cycle is, it's going to be really interesting because I do retail will eventually get there, but I think this is going to be a much longer stretched out cycle. And I think the leverage will be worse because we'll enter into the space of

banks have zero percent reserves and large institutions are going to leverage like the fiat leverage that they're used to leveraging and when that finally i think will go higher uh for then then everybody expects um maybe even quite a bit higher i mean you know predictions or predictions like whatever. But I also think it will be pretty rough. And I, I kind of suspect, you know, Bitcoin loves to destroy cooking the book, like institutions that cook the books. And probably, you know, historically, they only last about six months in Bitcoin. Well, they've lasted like 50 or 60 or 70 years in Fiat land. And I think we will likely see one of the really big ones have a, Maybe it just ends up being an extraordinary bailout.

Maybe that's what it is. But I think somebody big will get hurt significantly by Bitcoin because they will think the game is the same and the game will be different. Side note, can you imagine the God complex that being able to fight under 60 years would give some of these institutions? Yeah, dude. They are not going to think that this is, you know, this is a kink in their plans. They're going to think this is something that's going to make me even better at this game.

And the hell if they're going to change their ways, they will change their ways one bankruptcy at a time. And so- By the way, I remember BlockFi hired their risk. The risk guy was a guy from Wall Street. I remember I talked to him back in place. Good job, guys. We did it.

He has his thumb on the pulse of risk we can see but because of that we will probably have a really long bear market too so i would say get ready you know we have we have the best of the best and the worst of the worst and you know we're going to there's going to be a lot of there's going to be a lot of baptisms uh this next round so it's probably going to be wild um that's just my prediction never said p uh any final thoughts that you wanted to impart on people anything you want to point them towards as well. No, I just want to thank you for having me and being great connecting with all of you guys

and everyone out there that's watching too. So thanks for having me and hopefully we'll catch up again. You're way too humble. You should probably go check out Pete's awesome to meet you. I just, Pete gifted me this wonderful cookbook when I was in Prague. And you should probably, where can people find that? Because I'm going to force you to tell them. There you got.

Primal code. 100 recipes, similarities between Bitcoin, hodling your health and ancestral diets. It's on iBooks. It'll be on Kindle next week. And it's in hard copy, but it's expensive because it's print on demand. Apologies for that. But I think it's like $5 or $10 for iBooks and probably the same on Kindle in a website. I see Terr typing right now. I think he's doing it. I was like, can you get it? I love it. Uh, tour, I'll pass it to you as well. Any final thoughts that you have for the evening and, uh, anything you want to point people towards like your most recent report.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I would, I would just say I was thinking, I just, I just love the truth. And we, we, we were just so small that we can't know everything about everything. But every now and then something really strikes us like, okay, I need to know more about that. Like, this is serious. And, uh, and so for the new people here, like, maybe Bitcoin is, is something. that like you feel there's something there. I need to know more. And so what what's been helpful for me in general when I go into these rabbit holes is to try and think of it as a tree. And so maybe you're feeling one of the little leaves now and you're like, yeah, there's something there, but you're, you know, you're kind of blindfolded and you can't really figure it out. It is like,

try to find the trunk of the tree. Like try to find like the root of where this comes from. And usually it means going back in time, you know, like if you want to know, If you want to like, well, I don't know, it doesn't even, I don't know if I need to give an analogy. But so in terms of Bitcoin, what you want to look at in that case is the cypherpunk kind of background, the cypherpunk history. And so I'd recommend have a look at Nakamoto Institute.org, which is a website by our friend Michael Goldstein. It's a very trusted resource. and it basically has, you know, all the initial kind of emails and important documents that were related that Bitcoin came out of. Like this is tradition that existed before Bitcoin existed.

And so even to just kind of test like, do you do I even like this? Right. Go there. Go to the root. Like, because that's where the general political ideas are. What values people had, what they were trying to achieve. Like that's the DNA of Bitcoin. So that's really my strong recommendation.

for people new to Bitcoin. You can read the white paper, but that's even, even that is already a branch. You're like trying to go to the roots. And then, yeah, my report is on, I've published it together with Unchained. So Unchained.com. I believe it's slash boom dash 2025. It's a free report. You can even give like a dummy email address if, if you want to kind of protect your privacy

and it'll give you the, what is it, 20 page PDF, something like that. And then also a half hour presentation that I did with many charts about where I think the markets are at. Awesome. Awesome. Love to hear it. Actually, I'll double up on that Satoshi, the Nakamoto Institute. They are phenomenal. And also actually, on that same note, if you're looking, if you like find a good piece, search for it on Bitcoin Audible. Because I've done like 50 pieces or 60. I don't know, I've done like a good piece. crap ton from that website. So there might be an audible version to to grab or whatever, but an absolute shout out to the Nakamoto Institute. Yeah, and I would kind of double up on

just kind of remembering that guy has so much content and he's a very good filter, you know, so like if there's stuff that he is read, it's a good filter. It's a good kind of criterion to be like, oh, maybe this is worth listening to. And so it's always been a great honor if he decides to, you know, read some of my stuff, some of my articles. Yeah, I appreciate it, I mean. Love it. Well, jens, thank you so much for your time. Everybody watching, thank you for your time. Don't forget to drop a like on the video if you've enjoyed the conversation.

So Pete, Guy, Tour, thank you so much. And I hope to see you all, not only on other shows, but in person sooner rather than later. So have a fantastic night. Everybody watching. This was your daily session. We'll see you soon. Hey, you. Yes, you watching the Bitcoin price movements and the latest exciting news. It's awesome to stay informed, but the real power of Bitcoin comes from taking control.

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