BTC Sessions - Bukele Finally EXPOSED (What’s Really Going On) | Francis Pouliot, Svetski, Seb Bunney

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Nayib Bukele’s global reputation is split—dictator or Bitcoin savior? In this explosive discussion, Francis Pouliot, Aleks Svetski, and Seb Bunney dive into the truth behind Bukele’s leadership, El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment, and what it means for the future of financial freedom.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/francispouliot_https://x.com/SvetskiWriteshttps://x.com/sebbunneyFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCpCRYPTOCLOAKShttps://qrco.de/bg5Dvo#btc #bitcoin #crypto

Bitcoin is shaking up the world and its geopolitical ripple effects are impossible to ignore. Nation state adoption is speeding up. Indonesia, France, and Brazil are making big moves, but all eyes are on El Salvador. Last week, Naebu Kelly's party greenlit constitutional changes. Indefinite presidential re-election and six-year terms. Critics like Alex Gladstein from the Human Rights Foundation aren't holding back warning of authoritarian vibes as over 100 journalists, lawyers, and activists flee the country. The U.S. government also weighed in defending El Salvador. Stating, quote, we reject the comparison of El Salvador's legislative process, democratic, constitutionally sound, with illegitimate dictatorial regimes elsewhere in the region.

So what's really going on in El Salvador? Are they blazing a trail for a new model of governance or slipping into something different? If Bitcoin's going to change the world, what exactly does that path look like? To impact this and discuss all the reasons why they're bullish, we have a top tier panel of the best Bitcoin maxis. We've got Seb Bunny, author of the hidden cost of money, Alex Fibb. Svetsky, author of the Bishito of Bitcoin and Francis Poliot, sovereignty engineer and founder of Bull Bitcoin. I am Nathan with the BTC Sessions, and this is your bullish session.

All right, let me go ahead and get everybody in here. We've got Svetsky, who will be on and off camera as he prepares dinner for his lovely wife. Francis Pollyot and Svaliot. How are we doing? Gentlemen, how is it going today? How are we doing? Doing great, Nathan. Thanks for having me.

Beautiful. I'm glad you guys can make it. So even just kind of that first topic, maybe Alex, I'll start with you if you can. I'm curious your thoughts on the recent constitutional changes in El Salvador and kind of the way you're seeing things play out there. I mean, I'm so glad you brought this topic up while I'm here because I have been rooting for this for many, many years. I literally wrote about this in the Bushido Bitcoin, like the whole idea that we'll have the return of Caesars and we'll have the return of strong men and leaders. Like I'm a total, total, total 100% proponent of authoritarianism. authoritarianism is seriously it's the only fucking way you can have a functional

anything like you don't have you've never had a great country a great nation a great business a great anything built by committee committee is bureaucracy committee is the death of any sort of functional progress authoritarianism by definition means you have a authority which means etymologically a competent lead in any organization what What people are actually, you know, when people talk about authoritarianism, what they're actually against is totalitarianism. And that is the encroachment of bureaucracy into the lives of competent people. See, totalitarianism is more like micromanaging. You know, there's, you know, there's annoying HR people that want to stick to things and everything.

Exactly. That's what is. That's the HRification of civilization. That is totalitarianism. That is bad. Authoritarianism is not bad. Authoritarianism is what you get at Apple computer with Steve Jobs, what you get at, you know, Tesla with Elon Musk, what you get at Bull Bitcoin with Francis, what you get in any functional country. Singapore is an authoritarian state. UA. is an authoritarian state. Anything that is functional since the beginning of time was an authoritarian state. And they managed it well because you had a clear and precise leader. All throughout history, anything that was great, anything that was beautiful, any ascendant civilization was all built with strong leadership. So you need authority. So this, in my opinion is the only thing that you know like it's it's the best sign for that place

and i'm totally for it hands down uh furthermore the last point i'll just make on this before i hand it over to you guys is um if you want any form of lasting change you need uh long-term sort of monarchic like leadership you need someone in there who's got some skin in the game and there's time allowed for change to happen so first of all like extension spending it from four years to six years in a term is a fucking fantastic idea. Everybody should do that because those extra two years actually matter. And then furthermore, being able to create almost like a quasi-kingship there, which is, again, the return of Caesars, you create the conditions whereby you actually can affect change. Because particularly in a country, like, you know, it's hard to pivot a business with 10 people and to change the trajectory of a business. You know, it's infinitely harder to pivot a company with thousand people, imagine how hard it is to pivot a country from being a fucking backwater shithole where everyone's getting killed and stabbed and, you know, kidnapped and everything like that, into something that is ascendant. So like, you know, Bokele's already done a lot

in the couple of years, but him being there for like 15, 20 years and all that sort of stuff is going to be phenomenal for the country. Is he going to get rich along the way? Sure. Is there some risks of, you know, some people getting their butts hurt? Sure. Does that matter in the grand scheme of things? No, who cares? Like, the only way to lift something out is by strong leadership. So clearly, I have an opinion on this. I'll shut the fuck up and hand it over to you guys. I'm so glad I pulled that question for you because I knew I'd get a good response. I'll say, my anarchist sensibilities are quite offended. But at least if one thing I've learned from Hopper, it's that I would prefer monarchy probably to democracy. My concern is always going to be

like who's the next person to come in. But it's not about me. So Seb, I'm going to go to you and then Francis, I'll give it to you. Seb, what are your thoughts on that? Maybe what Svetsky said or just kind of your initial impressions about what's going on in El Salvador. Oh man, I think it's such a good question. And I think it's a discussion that the reality is, like, for me, there's that famous saying, like, strong opinions loosely held. And I would say that I've got loose opinions loosely held. I think that I'm still really trying to understand, like, what is my, what trajectory do I think is best for society?

And I think that when we look at what has taken place, democracy doesn't work. I think when you have a society who don't have capacity to dig in and understand what their true opinion is, to actually try and research what they think the best path forward is, how can you have a majority of people that are uneducated vote on decisions for a society? It just doesn't work. And so I lean towards what Svetsky is saying absolutely, where it's like I think authoritarianism, in a sense, not totalitarianism, is a trajectory whereby if you have a leader who listens to his people, cares about his people,

and understands the nuance and what is needed, I think sometimes you need that authority to be able to govern our trajectory. However, there needs to be something which holds them accountable. And I think that that is the separation of money in state. And I think the challenge we face today is we have authoritarian that leads to totalitarianhip simply because if you don't have the separation of money in state,

then that state can fund endlessly without any form of accountability. And so it's like, how do we hold those in power accountable so that they can't just run amok and basically just decimate the economy. And I think that the thing that's challenging is I also do have some anarchistic beliefs. And I listened to a really interesting talk by Malay a little while back. He was on Lex Friedman. And one of the things he said was if you believe in like the anarchistic model or what you end up realizing is that will never happen underneath the democracy because the democracy

won't vote for anarchy. And so being an anarchist, you actually have to lean into democracy and then slowly get in there with the chains store and chop it down. So it's like, how do we move towards these models, which actually end up working for us? And that, that's, I think, is a bigger question. Now, it's a very, very, very difficult question to ask too. It's like, do kind of the ends justify the means and how do we get to where we want to go, being stuck where we currently are? Francis, I'm very curious, your position on this being the Caesar of Bull Bitcoin, how do you feel about this?

I mean, I agree with Alex and Seb in theory philosophically, totally. You know, Alex and I have been talking about this, and he mentions it in his book, and there's this concept of the kind of Hapian, you know, we just cut out for one second. We have the satellite going overhead. I'm sure Francis will jump back in. It's very, very interesting to me that also being in the Bitcoin space, we are open to this idea. But I guess the first thing to even account for is the fact that Bitcoin is by the very nature tend to be contrarian and kind of open.

And he's back. Go for it. Yeah, my internet cut off just as I started talking. So, yeah, long story short, I agree in theory. As long as the sovereign individual can pick up his luggage and leave, it creates a sense of competition between these authoritarian countries. And that's great because authoritarianism is, as Alex pointed out, like effective management. And as you pointed out, Seb, you know, quoting Millie, the masses will never vote for a libertarian society. It just will never happen. But the caveat to this specific case is that is Buckele, the guy, is he the authoritarian leader that we want?

And I have some pretty strong opinions on that because when I first wanted to leave Canada, I studied where to go and amongst my options, I ended up going to Costa Rica, which is very close to El Salvador. I was looking at Nicaragua. Nicaragua also has a authoritarian leader, which is communist dictator. However, I was looking at all these countries and I was looking at their COVID policies as being the one policy that I'm interested in. And El Salvador was the worst, possibly were the worst countries in the world for COVID policy. So Buckele was a – Buckele was a – was a COVID hysteric, lockdown, massive, massive lockdowns.

And this is something that very few big corners know, but that is why he fired the Supreme Court. You know, Bukile is famous for firing the Supreme Court. And a lot of people think that that was because the courts were opposing his crackdown on the gangs. But his crackdown on the gangs began in 2022. In 2021, when the lockdown was happening in 2020, 2021, when the lockdown was happening, Bukella was actually, you know, rumored to still be in a deal with MS-13. And the deal was something along the lines, and this is a rumor, the deal was something along the lines of, you know, like, stop doing public murders and we'll give you better terms for jail sentences.

So he wasn't cracking down on MS-13. So why did he stack the Supreme Court? And that is because he imposed arbitrary detention for people who broke the curfew. The Supreme Court of El Salvador says, wait, you can't just put people in jail for, like, we have a constitution. Like we have rules. You can't put people in jail for not following your lockdown. And Buckele went on this, like, crazy rant where he's like, you guys are threatening national security. We need lockdowns now.

We need to fucking force fax people. We need to lock people up and force the mask. And if you don't allow me to do that, I'm going to have to depose you because you, the constitutional judges are threat. to national security. So Bukkile was a lockdown Nazi, basically, a really bad one. So that was the first red flag for me was like, okay, and then he like did a 180 on that. And there's there's a lot of things about like, and like Seth said, like I have like, I have a lot of opinions, but they're loosely held because I don't live in El Salvador. Like it doesn't concern me personally, but it is on my timeline, you know, like as a bit corner, like El Salvador is just on my timeline.

So, you know, if you want me to have an, I'm like forced to have an opinion because it's like, all of my friends are talking to me about El Salvador. I go to Salvador quite frequently. And there's like a lot of things, you know, like, is, is he, it is, is, is El Salvador a bastion of economic freedom? Decidedly, no, it is not at all a bastion of economic freedom. That's just, that's just not true. El Salvador is still a highly bureaucratic state. It's, you know, it's a center left social democracy. Much, much like the other, you know, Central American countries. It's not, it's not a libertarian paradise. I actually went to El Salvador many times and I was thinking about maybe moving Bitcoin over there because it sounds like, you know, it's welcoming. And it's not, it's not like there, which Bitcoin exchanges do you know have moved to El Salvador?

Like which Bitcoin companies do you know have moved to El Salvador? It's not it's not a free market like libertarian deregulated society at all. And you know, like the economic miracle of El Salvador is just not a real thing at all. like the growth of El Salvador, the GDP per capita is amongst the lowest in the region. And, you know, if you look at his achievements like the library and like the stadium and like a lot of the infrastructure is funded by, you know, the CCP by China. So, you know, I mean, like there's a lot of marketing around El Salvador. And of course, the whole Bitcoin law, the whole Bitcoin thing, I mean, from the beginning, it was kind of a LARP. it was kind of a marketing thing where you know if you're forcing bitcoin adoption top down like like they did in el salvador i think i think the philosophy for a lot of the like bit corners down there

i was like fake it till you make it like um because the adoption wasn't happening but you know if if a lot of bitconors moved to el sabador like john denny he from from me premier bitcoin and all these guys like there's like a grassroots movement movements which will emerge and it it did But the whole Bitcoin law, the whole like no taxes on Bitcoin companies and like we're going to roll out the red carpet for Bitcoin companies like that. That just like didn't happen. So I mean, like I'm, I agree that longer terms are good and that democracy is possibly the worst form of government we've ever seen when it comes to protecting individual sovereignty because the masses will obviously always vote to take the money of the few and take away the rights of the few. And there's all sorts of things that are like, you know, there's a bit, you know, the one thing that I will credit him for is destroying MS-13 and destroying the gangs, which, you know, living in a country where there are gangs and there are cartels and there are drug trafficking. There is that in Costa Rica.

There is that in the region. I would love, I would love for a Buceli-type dude to come here and fucking smoke them all. I would love that. But the flip side of that is that it is true that, you know, at least one bitcorner that is Alexander Moussaint. I don't know if you know the story of that guy. You know. But, but Alejandro Moussaint was the National Security Advisor of Buckele. He was like one of the original bitconers that was kind of like part of the government.

And, you know, he flat, he found some, there's, it's a complicated story. But essentially he, he blew the whistle on a big. corruption case in El Salvador, the Salvador government didn't see that way. They thought he was like a traitor, you know, for leaking confidential, kind of like a Snowden type thing where, you know, he was leaking information to political rivals, but he saw it as exposing corruption. Anyway, he was jailed and he was, he died in jail. And, you know, was it a natural death or was it a murder? Very, very ambiguous. So there's like the downside, which is like you have collateral damage. Like, you have people who are caught in this thing and become collateral damage. So I would say like generally, I think like Buckele did a great job in crushing the gangs and that is a prerequisite for anything else. Like if you have criminals that and like the criminals in El Salvador were like really bad ones.

Like usually the criminals in their country are like cartels which are doing with import and export of cocaine and you know, you know really like who cares. You know, if the cartels in your country are like killing only each other and you know, they're importing and exporting drugs. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's not such a big deal. But the gangs in El Salvador, they were effectively running, like, neighborhood extortion operations where they would extort and terrorize the local population.

You know, so the El Salvador gangs, they're not like, they're not like the Italian mafia, you know, in New York, kind of like running casinos and, you know, doing hits on each other. Like, these were really, really bad people that were actively, you know, they were essentially being like a quasi-state imposing attacks on local businesses and extorting them, obviously without representation. So they were really bad.

So kudos on that. And like if he feels that he needs this increase in power to continue that, I think that's probably a good thing for El Salvador. But also, you know, he's not, I don't think he's in the category of like, Amelé, you know, like Amelé. You know, like, like Emilay is an actual reformer of government institutions and he's tearing down, he's trying to tear down the state apparatus. Whereas Buckele, I see him more as a strong man who's trying to solve one specific problem and he's doing it very well, which is crushing the gangs. So, so yeah, I mean, I don't think we're heading towards like a Singapore with El Salvador, maybe down the line, maybe far down the line. And, you know, like the Bitcoin City, there's also some funny things about El Salvador. there's like a lot of market had like the bitcoin city you know like you know if you remember when he

unveiled this map this map of like this futuristic city that he was going to build and i'm like bro you know start by like fixing the roads man i mean it's i mean like you're not gonna you're not you know you're not you're not going to you know you're not going to build this like space citadel in al salvatore in like you know in your term um so i've got mixed feelings i've got mixed feelings but generally um i think the one thing that that that i agree on the most is like Congress doesn't work. And, you know, I believe in monarchy, but just as long as I'm king. Oh, Francis, those people.

Guys, I knew I was going to get the most interesting takes out of you, so I really appreciate that. And by the way, the libertarian bastion of freedom that you're looking for, that would be the sovereign Republic of Alberta. So it's not here yet, but it's on its way. Now, with that, I can see that Francis has frozen up on me a little bit, so I'll give them a chance to come back in. But maybe you know what?

Let's go this way. Everyone, the show is, why are we bullish? We're here to discuss the things that are most remarkable. most bullish about. Seb, I'm going to switch it up. I'm actually going to start with you. So you're going to get the same question that everybody else gets, the same question, the title of the show. Seb, tell me, why are you bullish? You know, like to start, I just wanted to add one more comment quickly. Oh, yeah, go for me. On that topic, which is, like, there's a book that really, to me, has helped shape some of my views. I don't necessarily

agree with everything in the book. And I'm not going to mention the book. The initials are the same as Minecraft. But anyway, that book says, like, and this to me really highlights the issue of democracy. It says, like, is it really an indispensable quality in the statesman that he should possess the gift of persuasion commensurate with his ability to conceive great political measures and to carry them through into practice? Does it really prove that a statesman is incompetent if he should fail to win over the majority of votes of an assembly that has been called together by a chance of a chance result of an electoral system? Has there ever been a case where such Assembly has worthily appraised a great political concept before that concept was proven a success.

And in this world, isn't the creative act of genius always a protest against the inertia of the mass? And what should the statesman do if he doesn't succeed in coaxing the parliamentary mob to give him consent? And like to me, I think this really stands out because it's just like this idea of like the inertia, the mass of the mob versus the individual, change happens on the fringe. It doesn't happen with the mass. And so it's just like when democracy doesn't work because people don't know what they're voting for. And it's kind of like when Apple came out with its iPhone, at the time, BlackBree was freaking crushing it. Apple wasn't even in sight. And everybody would have voted for, I don't want a touchscreen. I want my whole keyboard on a little miniature phone. And the reality

is within like a year or two, everyone was using touchscreen and BlackBree basically went under. And so people don't know what they want until they have it. And I think that's why in the end, it's like, how do we have a system that has as Svetsky, as France is talking about, like authoritarianism in a sense, while also holding them accountable. And I think that's the separation of money and state. Anyway, with that said, why am I bullish? I would say, like, I recently just wrote an article. I haven't actually released it yet. And it's talking about kind of this saying. What is the saying again? Mind block. The map is not the territory. And I think this is really true, because the reality is we go and we move through this world with a mental map of how we think the world works.

But the reality is, is the map is not the territory. The world doesn't work the way that we think our map orientes ourselves. And so if our map is wrong, our experiences are very different. Now, we know this from, say, North Korea. In North Korea, there's no such word for, like, love for my family. There's no such word for liberty. There's no such word for, like, stress. So we can't express those things. And if we can't express them, how do we experience?

them. And I think the world we live in today, unfortunately, the majority are operating with this map, this mental map that prices always rise as a result of inflation. Money should be centralized. Money should only be issued by the government, like government has control over our money. And so we have these models where we think this is how the world works. And what I think is so fascinating about Bitcoin is that it gives us a new map. It gives us a map where actually prices fall in relation to Bitcoin. Life starts to get easier. We can become more sovereign. And so the question, why am I bullish really is that Bitcoin to me has given me a new map that has profoundly changed my life where all of a sudden I have hope and I feel like there's prosperity in my future. I'm able to

build the friends with this amazing, amazing community. And so I want to push it on to Francis, you, Nathan Svetsky, like since adopting kind of this Bitcoin mindset, how would you say Bitcoin has changed your life and shaped how you interact with people, your hope for the future, things like that? Francis, I'll get you to start on that one. one. Wow, Seth, that was a great, great quote. And I fully agree with your previous quote, that a genius does not need to explain himself to anyone. But yeah, so obviously I've changed significantly as a result of Bitcoin and in ways that are very evidence, both physically and intellectually, and I'm lucky enough to have gone through like 10 years of Twitter.

So my Twitter timeline is kind of a very interesting, I've actually asked Rock to like analyze my shift of ideology over the 10 years. And it's quite cool. And of course, in the ways that I often talk about, for example, generational wealth mindset, dynastic, I have a dynastic mindset. And I share that with Zetsky. We've also talked about that in the past. Like, I think of myself as the founder of a dynasty, same as was the case in 17th and 18th and 19th century

where you have these visionary men that would create businesses that were intended to last for at least four to five to six generations. And I'm seeing that change contaminated with, people around me and that change is an irreversible rewiring of your brain and there's no going back so so it is it is really like the matrix when you when you take the red bill you know you don't really you don't really go back so basically the conversion of a of an NPC to a sovereign individual is an irreversible transition and it's it's only a matter of time until enough

people have that transition so that the system falls apart. You know, there's like that meme of like the kid, like the person like walking away from, from, you know, the state is on the board of a precipice or something and we're basically holding the system up via consent, right? So the reason why the Fiat system and the global democracy system works is via consent and it only takes like a fraction of the population. You don't need to convince the masses.

you only need to convince the producers in society, very similar to the John Galt, Atlas Shruck kind of phenomenon, where all you need is for, like, I would say something like a 5% of the top producers and top intellect and top builders of society to decide to become sovereign individuals and stop giving their consent for the system to crumble. The reason why I'm bullish is, I mean,

I've had many phases in my Bitcoin career. I started out more like, a libertarian and then more like anti-shedcoin maxi and now I like the last two years I've shifted my focus a lot more on engineering and on application level engineering and on scaling the Bitcoin user experience and building apps and the reason why I'm bullish is because through my journey of really getting involved at the engineering level I have discovered that there are a lot of extremely motivated extremely talented ideologically driven builders that are quietly building apps and protocols and technologies and libraries that make using Bitcoin for payments and make the sovereign use of Bitcoin easier and better over time. Think about how shitty the experience of Bitcoin was like 10 years ago versus what it is now where you can like connect your hardware wallet to a mobile device.

You can spend via lightning from a liquid wallet. There's all sorts of the ARC network. That makes me extremely bullish, like what you can do with ARC, what you can do with other networks like Spark, what you can do with lightning, lightning has gotten so much better. So unlike other like shit coins and protocols that do not evolve, Bitcoin is constantly evolving. And like compare that with, for example, the wire transfer system.

Like they've just switched it to Fedwire from SWEGELWR. You know and the improvement there is like so minimal and so inconsequential compared to the improvements in the Bitcoin user experience that we're seeing So a lot of people are excited about you know Bitcoin treasure companies and the financialization of Bitcoin and Wall Street getting into Bitcoin and yeah sure I mean there are like legit reasons to get excited about that you know because It's it's it's kind of nice to see it's kind of nice to be proven right by by the Wall Street guys that finally you know We've successfully front front run them for like 15 years and now they're getting on board and it's kind of like a vindication to see that way you know you know but i don't i don't need i don't need like wall street institutional adoption to feel vindicated but it does it does feel

nice you know to see these guys like buy bitcoin at 120k you know instead of like you know us buying bitcoin at like 5k like five years ago during covid and stuff like that um so so to make it short like i'm i'm bullish because I can see that we are in the cusp of a, the full sovereign individual toolkit is becoming a very good product. Let's call it like that. Whether that's Noster, which was complete garbage like a couple of years ago, and now it's like really, really good. You know, like Nostr started out like really shitty user experience,

but now there's how many people are building on Noster like high quality developers like I have no idea but like 500 like a thousand I guess people are like improving the Noster experience and in Bitcoin the number is like far higher no we just froze up there but what we're going to do because we're taking a quick break for show sponsors if you're joined the content so far guys please do hit that like button it really does help out a lot when we come back in we're going to give away some stats

from the Bitcoin well additionally then we're going to go to Svetsky and get his take on these sovereign tools and the mental mind shift. And instead will come to you on the tools that got you jazzed up riffing on what Francis was telling us there. So everyone hit that like button. Like a like button. Stick around. We will be right back with you. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your Bitcoin on mobile, Aqua wallet has you covered.

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or simply scan the QR code on the screen to get started right away. As before we jump back into it, we're going to quickly give away some sats from the Bitcoin wishing wheel. Anytime you prefer a friend or DCA or buy, you're going to get more there. Let's go ahead and toss a coin in the well. Get those lightning wallets ready. We'll redeem some of Ben's points here and see what we're generating. Let me just get our smiling faces here on the side as well.

too. Beautiful. 702 sats. First person to scan it gets it. Go ahead and let us know if you got it down below. And additionally, before I get into Svetzi's kind of response to all of that, I've got to touch on the upcoming event in Vancouver. So we've got the learning Bitcoin coming up in Vancouver and both the absolutely wonderful Francis and Seb are going to be there.

Maybe Francis, could you tee us off a little bit? Can you talk about what's going on at learning Bitcoin in Vancouver in the coming weeks? Yeah, learning Bitcoin is a really awesome event focus on education and, you know, onboarding newbies. So we're going to be there. We're going to be running a workshop. And as always, we're going to be onboarding people to Bitcoin the right way, which is self-custody from the start. No shit corn is from the start. So really excited to – I've never been actually to learn the Bitcoin is going to be my first time.

I know the rest of the Bull Bitcoin crew went last year. They had a great time. So, yeah, really excited to go to Vancouver. Well, I'm not excited to go Vancouver. I'll be honest. But I'm excited to hang out with Bitcoiners. I'm going in and out, not staying in Vancouver too long. Oh, that's awesome.

Seth, did you have anything to add on that as well, too? Matt, I think you were at the last learning Bitcoin event too, weren't you? Yeah. You know what? I would say this is learning Bitcoin is a perfect example of just like what happens when Bitcoin has come together because Tristan, the guy who is kind of the founder of learning Bitcoin. We met in Madeira at the Bitcoin Atlantis.

When was that last year in March? And we had a little booth area. and this was for me premier bitcoin this was for uh looking glass which is our little educational platform and it was for um amity age which is a guy called du san and we had this little area and it was called learning bitcoin it was all just like free educational sessions anyone really speaking to the layperson and i was speaking to this guy tristan i'd never met him before and i was like oh tristan you work for um you work for me premier bitcoin you must be down nels al al one he was like oh no i'm in victoria bc which for me me, I'm like, I live just north of Vancouver. And he was like, oh, man, I'd love to create some

form of conference like similar to what we've got here, but bigger. And so that's how learning Bitcoin was born. And so it was really cool. We went to the first one last year in Victoria, and this time he's going to up the ante inhabit in Vancouver. That's awesome. That's fantastic. All right, so Svetsky, I'm going to get you back in here. We had a ton that was thrown out just before the break there, too. I want to start off with getting your response to Seb's reason for being bullish in terms of the idea that the map is not the territory and how being a bitcoin can really shift our mental framework for how we're viewing the world and the impact it can have on us i imagine you have a lot to say on the topic hmm i do there's um oh fuck i don't even know

what to start um the i think the biggest piece that you know having bitcoin sort of the biggest way it impacts your life is just the the optionality and I you know the older I get the more I'm convinced that I read this tweet a while back which said there's only 150,000 souls on earth and everyone else is basically an MPC which is what it implies is the the older I get the more I kind of ascribe to that kind of thinking is that most people are NPCs and as much as um you know bitcoin exists you know most people you kind of see it on twitter these days like all of the bitcoin talk is just around fucking mindless trading and gambling and god knows what else and you know the wall street dorks and all the sort of stuff and you know to

francis's point it's great to be indicated by all of these people and stuff like that but it's just not it's just none of that's like really interesting um you know it's it's good in the sense that it pumps our bags and it increases the optionality for those of us actually holding Bitcoin and thinking about ways to quote unquote live outside the system and not even just living outside of the system. I think what's more compelling is actually constructing a parallel system, something that is more functional, which ties once again into what Francis was saying about like all of the the actual evolution of technology and tools and everything like that that's happening in the Bitcoin space versus the same fucking rinse and repeat gambling that's happening everywhere

else in the world. It's not just shit coins. Like basically the rest of the world is one entire giant shit coin casino like everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, from real estate to stocks, to commodities to bonds to Bitcoin treasury companies, all of it. It's just Ponzi schemes, you know, all the way down and all the way up. So, you know, there's nobody actually building anything interesting, even in the tech space these days. Like every single new app that comes out, like, you know, there was that T app floating around the other day of like chicks like, you know, dobb it on dudes and stuff like that. They're all shit coins, right?

Like they're just sort of like come, flash in the pan, disappear. There's nothing, you know, there's no interesting infrastructure being built. There's nothing parallel being built, you know, to use, you know, the Peter Thiel sort of thing that he said a number of years ago. It's like, we'll promise spaceships or whatever it was going to Mars and, you know, we've got 160 characters or whatever. which is, you know, annoying. But I think what Bitcoin opens up is the opportunity for people who are,

you call them producers, call them the thinkers, call them the doers, call them the, you know, the autists, whatever you want to call them, is like the people actually want to construct something fresh, new, and actually build a new system. Because the thing is, I think this is where I've sort of not, I've left behind the idea of anarchism, like the idea of no order or no rulers, I think is retarded. I don't think it works at all. I think it can only work within a framework of some sort of monarchy because you need to have some sort of territorial operation in order to have, you know, call it free market anarchy within, but you know, something needs to protect the borders, so to speak.

You know, if you just let all the mindless masses just overrun a region, you're not going to have any form of anarchy. Actually, you'll get, you'll get real anarchy, which is fucking Somalia. So anyway, that aside, I think it, what makes me a little bit more bullish on life is probably aligned to what Francis was saying earlier about, like, the development of these new tools that kind of give us, and those of us now with like some Bitcoin and a little bit of optionality and a little bit of capital, the ability to do things that we couldn't otherwise do previously. And that's, that's exciting. I think, I want to weave this into a little bit of the Salvador conversation we're having early.

You know, like you look at, let's think of the Bitcoin network and Bitcoiners and all this sort of stuff in the infrastructure and technology. We're all sort of tied together on as almost as like a country or a nation state or something that aligns us, right? We're a sort of a quasi-territorial of some sort. Compare that with, you know, what you've got with Bokele and El Salvador. You know, he's not operating with the most, I'm going to get a lot of hate for saying this, but fuck it, I'll say it. He's not operating with the highest IQ stock, right? You know, you've got like, there's a reason why Salvador is trying to bring talent into the country is that they're not working with a lot. And honestly, when you actually have that kind of a, you know, that's the clay that you have to work with, you actually have to use a bigger hammer to kind of knock it into shape, right?

to, for lack of a better term, you actually need more authoritarianism. You know, when you have a much higher stock of productive, intelligent, high IQ, industrious, you know, people or stock, you actually can lax the authoritarianism a little bit because people are authorities in and of themselves, right? They're authorities in their own right. So this sort of like spectrum is something I think we always forget because we kind of look at all of these things in a binary fashion. We're like, oh, yeah, it's got to be monarchy or it's got to be democracy, it's got to be this, it's got to be that. In fact, I would even argue that as much

as democracy is retarded, for example, there is actually ways in which it can work if you have a highly, highly, highly, industrious, high IQ, super, you know, functional group of landed owners who, you know, and maybe that actually looks more like a republic, like what Rhodesia, was before I got turned into fucking Zababwe, but you know, there are there is proof that this stuff can work like you know the ancient Greeks and all this sort of stuff this stuff this stuff did work. Although I would say more often than not because we're dealing with the problem of you know 90% of people are mindless. Um, monarchy just generally works a little bit better. And I think what Bitcoin does is kind of set the parameters. So so I'll finish off with this part of the brain fart is it sets the world up in such a way where I think it'll increasingly bifurcate into these enclaves where people with a brain with some level of sentience and productivity and industrious and everything sort of come together and actually build stuff not just in the digital space anymore but also in the in the physical space and we've seen that obviously where you know frances with with bitcoin jungle there is like you know for the last five

six years i've been to 50 countries and i've sort of visited different enclaves around the world. Like, you know, Bali gets a bad rap, for example, but Bali is actually a very, very interesting place where people have come who are industrious, who are intelligent, who've got sort of like some sort of vision for the way they want the world. And they've actually turned what was effectively a fucking jungle with some monkeys there into one of the busiest, like, tourist zones on the planet. It's actually fucking incredible what they've done there. So I believe there's going to be these enclaves that pop up around the world in, places like Costa Rica in areas in Brazil, in even in Europe, in Asia, in all of these

different zones. And I think you'll have these like, and I kind of think of them almost as executive states or, you know, regions where you have both potentially a ground up movement, but also some sort of, you know, I can imagine 10, 15 years from now, like a bunch of Bitcoin is getting together, putting some Bitcoin together. and taking over like a small country or a small region that has gone bankrupt and fucking turning it into a functional micro-estate that is run like some sort of blend of a kingdom and a company, right? And you turn it into something that fucking runs and hums, you know, without all of the retarded bureaucracy and all this sort of stuff. So, and I can imagine, you know, more and more

of those regions potentially popping up all around the world. It's actually part of the of the part of the driver behind what I'm trying to build like over at Atlantis which is you know can we build some sort of network that that somewhat like gives people not only a digital community to be a part of so you know that's sort of like you know Noster and all these sort of tools that enable us to build these social graphs that are more open and everything but can we tie these digital communities and stuff like that to something physical to regions, two groups, two places, two events and all this sort of stuff. And can we kind of establish a mechanism for these, for this kind of movement towards these special enclaves speeding up?

Because that's where I think, you know, the last I'll say on this is the older I've gotten, the more I've kind of moved away a little bit from the sovereign individual thesis, more towards the sovereign tribe. Because I think the individual is really weak alone. That was one thing I really, really, really like learned during COVID. You know, I got arrested on fucking four different flights because I was the only dumb cunt on the plane who refused to wear a mask under any circumstance. And I just refuse, refuse, refuse, and get arrested at the end. And then I would sit there and think, like, imagine if there was like 10 of us, 10 dudes,

just say, fuck you, arrest me. There's no fucking chance in hell. The, you know, the cops would have come on there or the flight attendant would have decided to be a fucking HR bitch or any of that. of stuff. It wouldn't have happened, right? So alone, we're really weak. And I think it's very, very important. I think in this next stage as we move, you know, forward 2030, 25 and all this sort of stuff to actually gather up around these enclaves and start to build parallel micro economies, parallel sort of events, parallel food networks and all this sort of shit. And hopefully, like,

I mean, my bet with what I'm trying to do with. Atlantis is make that kind of the discovery layer for all of these zones and locations and enclaves around the world. And then, I mean, something like Bitcoin is just such a prerequisite necessity for that kind of a world. Because for that to exist, like if you want to have a way to interact with that, these micro economies and everything, you need a fucking functional currency. So anyway, I'm preaching to the choir at this point and like kind of overlapping what I'm saying. But that's kind of what I'm most bullish about. I think the movement from like we're all kind of like maturing a little bit, the movement away from sovereign individual to sovereign tribe and kind of seeing how the world is bifurcating into these like large blobs of shit where you don't want to be.

And kind of opening up enclaves where ideally you do want to be. and finding, finding your tribe, finding your people and all of that sort of stuff in those regions, I think is incredibly bullish for the world. And the fact that we have Bitcoin to help enable that, I think is very, very powerful. Very cool. Seb, there's a lot to unpack there, but I'll go to you first. And then Francis, I want to get your response as well, too. No, you know what's really interesting is I think Svetsky makes such a good point. One that really stood out to me was this idea that like the individual, unfortunately, on their own, doesn't have much power. It's when the individual combines and builds a community. And when we think about

even way back when when we're in small little tribes. Like if the reality is that if we are to be kicked out of the tribe, we're probably going to die. And so it's about being able to find these communities like-minded individuals. And I think the internet has been a phenomenal power source for that because we can connect with people that are outside of our vicinity.

But I think it really is about like finding people you're grounded with, you connect with, you're like-minded. And that's how you create change. And so that's why I'm very bullish, the Bitcoin community, because it's a group of individuals that are willing to question, they're willing to be curious.

And on top of that, they have hoped for the future, which is phenomenal. Beautiful, Francis? Well, these conversations, I can guarantee you are happening. And even back during COVID, and again, I've known Alex for a while, we were having these discussions. When we were suffering to lockdown, we were like, fuck, maybe we should go to some Central American country

and buy 1,000 acres and do our own little compound get fucking armed. And you know, there's there's two things I want to talk about first. It's like we these conversations are happening. I think we are just a little early because everybody that is in Bitcoin is like busy building shit. So we're not, we're not fully dedicated to creating an actual physical a citadel because we're all busy, you know, chasing stats and building building products. But these conversations are happening. I've had this conversation probably a hundred times in the last five years about like where could we go and create a micro state what we're doing in

Bitcoin jungle is kind of like a cute family friendly friendly soft prototype version of that where we don't we don't aspire to to create like an armed militia and like defender village in Costa Rica we're creating a circular economy we're we're creating a network and it's like a very cute version of and like inoffensive version I would say of a of a micro state but things are getting there's a lot more serious things that are happening I recently had a wonderful discussion with Nolan about the fall of the nation state. And the gist of it was what are the three reasons why a nation state that is a large-scale state?

Not a like... Oh, we just lost them for one second there. But I do agree in the sense that these... I would be the more anarchist individualist in the room here currently. But I do agree that it has to happen in basically within groups and within your tribe. The key distinction for me being the voluntary nature. Sorry, Francis. just lost you there, jump back in.

Yeah, I'm back. It's my Starlink. It's you being in the jungle. Yeah. So why does a state, like Canada exists? I mean, there's three functions. There's, you need skill to achieve a large-scale army, right? So, like, a small tribe of people cannot afford F-35s.

They can't afford Abraham's tank. They can't afford nuclear missiles. So the nation-state was largely created as a way to achieve, like, large-scale military because you have massive, massive economies of scale in violence. Up until very recently where now you have guys like Palmer Lucky who single-handedly with him and his investors can basically take on probably every single army in the world save the top 10 maybe. So, you know, like if Anderil goes to war with like pretty much every country in Africa and South

America, they're probably going to win at this point. So that aspect of the state, which is that large scale, like violence has like massive economies of scale. Sovereign individual thesis calls it the the logic, the return of violence and the logic of violence, it's changing. And then you have the massive welfare, wealth redistribution programs, which is one of the reasons why these large-scale states exist. They exist because having a big state makes it really, really easy to steal money from people and give it to other people. Versus in a small state, it's harder to pull off. And obviously, this Canada is a really good example. Like it's, it's, that whole scheme is, is collapsing.

And like, nobody is seriously relying on pensions. Nobody is seriously relying on public hospitals and public schools. Nobody that's really like a player is relying on public schools for education, right? And we're not relying on public hospitals to save ourselves. Like we're going to private hospitals and private insurance. So that role of the state is failing. And obviously the role of printing. and maintaining the currency is another reason why states exist in their large-scale form.

And all these functions are being slowly obliterated. So what is left, I think that the era of the large-scale nation-state is, it's on the verge of collapse. And I think that the separation of Alberta, if it happens, we might look back on it as being the first domino that shatters the illusion of the large-scale nation-state, of the large-scale nation state, because if Alberta separates, everything is going to be fine in Alberta, right? The things are going to get better for Alberta. And then people are going to start to realize, so like if Alberta separates, like, why doesn't Quebec separate?

Why doesn't Scotland separate? And why doesn't Catalonia separate? And where doesn't the north of Italy separate? And then as all these big artificial states shatter, like France, for example, France is a fully artificial state as well. So I'm very bullish on that. I'm very bullish on the fact that.

We're seeing the first, we've seen the cracks of the nation state appearing, I think for like, people have been seeing them for 50 years, but realistically more like 10, 15 years, like the cracks have been appearing. And now the cracks are becoming pretty, pretty big in places like Canada and places like the UK, specifically, and places like France as well, where the cracks are blaringly obvious. France is on the, is on the verge of financial ruin. And another thing I'll say about the shift in mindset is like the sovereign individual slash sovereign tribe slash, you know, frontier pioneer man mindset where I can build anything and I can take my life into my own destiny that Bitcorners have is something that has existed in North America. So it's not exactly like a new like, you know, if we had a conversation with like, you know, American revolutionaries or early American pioneers, like we could speak the same language. which is like, of course you can just build things. Of course, like, you can just conquer California and fucking create a dam

and build a city from the desert. And, like, yeah, I'm not a lord. I'm not a baron. Like, I can, yeah, like, what fucking talking about? I can do that. So these are things that we Bitcoiners, like we believe in, you know, we can just create a civila. We can just create these products

that take down global financial systems without asking for permission. But in Europe, this is not something that has ever existed. It's never been part of European culture and what I'm seeing which is really interesting since bull bitcoin got in France I've been really really involved in like the French political zeitgeist and we're seeing in France this emergence of of like the kind of like black peeled orange peeled cynical gen z or millennial sovereign individual that now has fuck you money and now is making fun of taxpayers like now like there's like this

meme going out in France where it's basically like tax pay taxpayers are losers like if you're paying taxes you're a fucking loser if you're still living in France and you're incorporating friends you're a fucking loser like you're so lame and like there's like these memes going around and like France used to be like very like well it's either like center left or center or like center right and all kind of like different versions and like French democracy is hilarious because like it is it is the least amount of choice in any any in any Western country is France. Like there is absolute there's there's like extreme communism and like soft communism in France. There's there's no like

Republican Party, there's no conservative party in France. It's all shades of the same thing. And the disillusionment with democracy and the idea that you know you can also you know you can also just buy Bitcoin and get the fuck out of the country right. I like I've seen that that that movement emerging and up until a year ago that wasn't like a thing at all. Like the idea of individual sovereignty and like we have fucking money, fuck the state that that was just not part of the French die guys. I'm sure it was, but it was like you know very very niche. And now I'm seeing like these memes,

these memes that are propagated by bitconers that are being taken up in like mainstream French media. It's like becoming a thing. I even saw that in the newspaper in Montreal was talking about these memes of like the the dumbass NPC taxpayer versus the Chad Bitcorner. So this kind of like reframing of the brain that we're talking about was very prevalent in, I would say, North America, specifically Americans and Canadians. Canadians are not as bad as people think. You know, we're like, we're still base. Like we have a base undercurrent.

Like Canada's, Canada is a pioneer. We have fucking grizzly bears. You know what I mean? Like we're not as wish as you think we are because of Trudeau and all that shit. Like there's a big undercurrent of sovereign individual man and builder in Canada. So we've been familiar with this kind of. of discourse and it's not super weird like you know it's it's yeah we're like the minority but like having a sovereign individual discourse in canada it's not you know it's it's relatively it's relatively

common compared to like germany and france where this this idea just just is very new and it's very sexy and it's very funny and it's catching on and it's trendy and young people think it's hilarious and you know when we when we like you know we do a lot of memes and a lot of memes and a lot of of content in French in France and we're not doing like Bitcoin content we're doing like sovereignty content and we're doing like an individual sovereign individual thesis content and people are eating it up and it's like new and fresh and it's cool and like you know there's like this whole cultural revival and I was I was explaining this to my boomer parents and like mom and dad you know I have

the discussion recently like you know it's trendy now for for women to just want to be housewives and it's it's trendy for people not not to do nine to five and you know like all these things that I've been talking to you about like this is what's cool now you know like we are fucking cool you know like you we are the new punk we are the new hippies like we are we're we're the coolest kids in town and like being an environmentalist is no longer cool being trans is super lame and you you you think like the gen zes are like all trans hysteric climate tards and it's not it's not true There is the pendulum swing is definitely happening.

People are sick and tired, like young kids are sick and tired of being told that the world is going to end and that they should cut out their dicks and shit like that. And they, they, I've been following polls and I've been following a lot of like, you know, like Gen Z type of content. And the pendulum is swinging. And and and Bitcoin is one of those anchors, which people are with these people are gravity, gravitating to. So I think like I think we've reached peak clown already. So I think we have passed peak clown, peak sludge, peak fiat. And I think we are like, I think economically we're not at the peak of the problem. I think we're about to crash economically.

But culturally, I think we've just reached a threshold where like the culture is definitely. shifting like I'm seeing that shift and and yeah so that that that makes me super bullish so like Europe discovering the sovereign individual kind of like libertarian philosophy which which has existed like but more as a kind of like agricultural lost on there for one second we're going to take a quick break for a shout-up from show sponsors but when we get back step I do want to come to you because what Francis was talking about there in terms of the tech specifically as well as the culture I have some concerns in the culture about Bitcoin, but I want to get your thoughts on it.

So everybody watching, please do smash that like button or do a quick shout-up response. So when you come back in, we're going to dive into Francis's topics there on culture and tech as well. We got a little bit more for you, so don't go anywhere. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the US. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Your white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees.

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Seb, I want to start with you. One of the things I was thinking about, well, Francis was laying that all out there for us, was this idea of the culture and the importance of it as well. And one thing that I've noticed, but again, this could be like Twitter, echo chamber kind of stuff. I have kind of growing concerns about with the increased adoption of Bitcoin, I wonder if that kind of crypto anarchist or that kind of crypto-punk origins is getting watered down, meaning is the newcomers and like the Wall Street types coming into the space.

Are they taking away from what was the kind of underbelly of the Bitcoin culture beforehand, or is it the other way around in the sense that the incentives of Bitcoin is going to start to kind of Trojan horse that mentality and those ideas on them? This is a really interesting question. I think it's a really challenging question to ask because I think that as a Bitcoiner, we even, you know what, as just a sovereignty maximalist, like I care about sovereignty. And I believe that I believe in free speech and I believe in free thought. I think that anybody should be entitled to lean into whatever world view they have.

All I hope is that that individual has intellectual honesty and is willing to dig in and question their ideas and willing to have that curiosity. And that's where I think we struggle today is a lot of people, they have propagandist beliefs. They have beliefs built upon mainstream media and they think they're informed and they really are not informed. And so I think the thing is if someone is adopting Bitcoin, I'm not going to tell them that they have to take on such beliefs because otherwise that goes against. the values of someone who believes in free thought and free speech. However, what I do find really interesting is that as people come into Bitcoin, and as they start to get more capacity, and with that capacity, they start looking inwards and say, actually, who am I and how do I want to show up? And maybe why are we facing the issues that we have in society? A lot of people tend to

find themselves down this rabbit hole of just like very similar views. And so that's what I find really, really interesting. I think that as people have more capacity, we're going to have more people with like-minded views, people that care about sovereignty, people that care about free speech, free thought. But I don't need to necessarily push them into having any type of beliefs or say some beliefs are better than others because I think that I believe in free speech and free thought. That's beautiful. Alex, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that, essentially are the ideas of Bitcoin going to permeate out through the general population, or are they going to get watered down as more and more people come in?

I think the core ideas will I mean it's I think we are receivers so it's just going to that the sovereignty or the you know the hardcore bitcoiner like what sort of we represent in this generation of Bitcoiners represent I think is almost at an end I don't think it's going to permeate any further I think the lemmings will always be lemmings the dumb people always be dumb people and you can't like man just just Just go and open up TikTok or Instagram for fuck's sake. Oh, please. Like, you know, like, and then that'll answer everything you need to answer about like, it doesn't matter. Like, they are never going to come around to these things. You know, 90% of people will not like the Pareto. I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe if you can take it out like 100 years, 200 years,

maybe the 80, 20 will, we'll sort of come back to normalization. But even like 8020 is like the most, um, the most, what's the word, like, the peak of what you'll ever get in terms of, um, intellectual rigor and like being able to adopt those ideas, right? There is only, the maximum percentage of lions in a society, uh, is ever going to be 20%. But, you know, and that, that's if you're super fucking lucky, then the other 80% or more will be, will be sheep. Um, so, so I don't think, um, so I don't think, um, um, so I don't think, um,

Most of them are going to care. But even with that, I don't say that in a, I don't mean that in a negative sense. I actually mean that the silver lining behind that is it's never, the 80% has never been required to make anything better. Like it's never been the case. It has always been the 20% and it's always actually been the 20% of the 20% of the 20%, which is the 0.8%. You know, it's the 1%.

That has always been the prime mover. That has always been the case. And it's always been the small fraction that actually create the movement after which the inertia arrives. And that's fine. That is fine. There's actually benefits to being in both camps, right? Like, you know, the benefit of being an MPC is that you don't actually have to think.

And that's fine. You know, there's clearly some mental energy saved there. and you don't have to go through all the turmoil and ups and downs and everything of actually being a thinker and a doer and a producer and all that sort of shit. You know, you can just fucking consume. Go hard. You know, hopefully we can just structure civilization in a way that's a little bit more, more palatable for the producers and the lions and the sentient ones. So that way they don't all die off because if they all die off, then the sheep are fucked anyway. So, like, you know, that's like, that's the important piece.

Very cool. Francis, I'm curious your thoughts on that. Is there, will the culture kind of the cyphorpunk culture be lost? And does that even necessarily matter if the adoption's grown to that level? So no, the cyberpunk culture is, is never going to be lost because people, the people who are part of that culture become more successful and survive over time. Right. So holding these ideas makes you, there is a via negativa effect where the people who don't believe in the cypherpropine culture always end up getting wrecked, right? So we've seen that before in Bitcoin in 2015, from 2015 to like 2018, we had the first kind of like dilution, so to speak, of the

cypherpunk ethos. And just to be clear, it doesn't matter. But it happened anyway. So we had the dilution of the cypherpricepoint ethos where a lot of people, it's very similar to like the institutional adoption narrative in that respect, we're like, well, you know, cypherpunk is not for everyone. We need Bitcoin to scale to the masses. We need to increase the block size. So we created, eventually we created B-Cash, right? So B-Cash was the first like counter-narrative to the cypherpunk maxi narrative, which is like decentralization and sovereignty doesn't really matter as much as cheap payments over the internet and making like getting the masses on boarded into Bitcoin. That was like the first dilution of the Bitcoin Sipherpunk maxi kind of like narrative.

And the people who ended up joining that narrative, which the Bcash narrative, which also was kind of like the shit coin narrative, ended up financially in a worse off place than the people who just held Bitcoin in South Cressidy. And the people who didn't put their bitcoins on FtX and on whatever the other ones were. So like the cyphrepoint holder is immune to the, to the, to the, the mistakes of the people who are not in its beliefs, or better to rephrase it, people who don't believe in cypherpunk principles, just kind of like end up removing themselves

from the gene pool. So the people who adopt the cypherpunk principles kind of like will outlast them. And secondly, yeah, sure, there's like a lot of noise coming. It's cranged, it's annoying, but it's ultimately harmless because the signal is also growing, right? So the ratio, the signal to noise ratio is increasing. Nope, we lost in there for one second.

Said, did you have any thoughts necessarily there on that idea of the signal to noise growing? We'll wait for Francis to job back in. You know, I would say it's an interesting one because I think he brought up an interesting point just then, which was probably somewhere around 200. I'm back. Okay, cool. Last story short. You're back. We were on signal to noise. The signal, the noise to signal ratio is increasing.

So there's more noise and the proportion of noise in the space. is increasing the ratio of noise is increasing but that doesn't matter what matters is the absolute amount is the absolute amount of signal increasing as well and it is increasing right so so if if the the cringe narratives increase by 3x but the cypherpunk per year for example but the cypherpunk actual builder narrative increases by 20% sure like it seems like there's more cringe out there but the signal is is ultimately increasing And what matters is people who actually build things and the people like the cringe, finance,

tried for the pros aren't actually building anything. So you can't affect like it doesn't. It's not Bitcoin is on democracy. What matters is what you build, right? The products that you build are what actually shape how the ecosystem evolves. We're not voting for how Bitcoin is going to be used in the future. Some people are building products that are going to be adopted by the market. And as a cypherpunk, my job is to infuse the cypherpun values in my product and to make that product successful.

So if my product is successful, the values that I put in the product are going to be, like the normie is not going to consciously adopt cypherpunk values. And he doesn't want to. And I don't necessarily want him to, although I prefer he does because I'm also like a humanist in that sense. Like I, you know, I recognize the irrelevance of the normie and the NPC and the grand scheme of things, but also I have some empathy towards him. So I would prefer that the normie becomes a sovereign individual out of, you know, a kind of Christian belief in just general empathy. But yeah, so what matters is who is building stuff, who is successful, and what are the values of the builders? and the cypherpunks are the only ones who are building things and like we've we've been through this this this cycle of dilution of the cypherpunk narrative and ultimately it always comes back to the cypherpunk like

almost like clockwork you know in the in the bear markets people become cypherpunk and in the bull markets people become cringe um but the cypherpunk core always always remains and um you never see someone oh you do see you do see some cypherpunks becoming cringe i'm not going to name them but there are some prominent cyphabunks who like became tradfai bros. But on the long enough timeline, like, like, you know, there's another really cool interesting phenomenon, which is like cyphabunks are cool and sexy and trotfy people are lame and cringe. And I really do believe that like aesthetically, like just aesthetically, like this like a coal card experience, for example, like owning your coins on a fucking plate with 12 seed words that's fucking dope that's

fucking sexy like that's cool um you know playing with Robin hood brokerages and like stonks on tradfai is not cool and it's it's lame and culturally these things are not going to stick like you know like like becoming like a 9 to 5 corp accountant partner of accounting farm was only cool for like 15 years. You know what I mean? Like it was cool when I was young, but like nobody thinks that's cool anymore. Like everybody now knows that like being a sovereign entrepreneur

that's like a digital nomad that's running an online business and that, you know, is not tied to a particular city and has, you know, offshore bank accounts in Dubai and stuff. Like that's fucking cool. Being a successful lawyer in a law firm downtown of a big city is no longer cool. So I think these things actually matter. So long story short, being Satcher Punk is cool and the, you know, cool always wins. I was to say the first thing that came to mind when you said that too was like the comparison of having like laser tag versus going to the shooting range.

It's like, yes, it's much cooler to actually, which by the way, if you need a cold card, Ben's got the monthly cold card giveaway. Go ahead and scan that QR code. But yes, having your C plate actually sitting down, it's almost like a ritual tool. Every time you got to, you know, if you're making some changes or doing something, you got to sit down, get everything out, stamp it into titanium or steel. There's something absolutely wonderful about it. And again, it's like actually going out and actually shooting something for real. Seb, you had something you want to jump in on there. I want to get your thoughts on that.

I think the thought crossed, I blanked on it. Signal versus noise and cypherpunks are cool. And anything, also, you know, like you and I know this because we've been orange filling a lot of people. But, you know, I think we've been orange filling, you know, wealthy, older, you know, the demographic of bull bitcoin and the demographic of mentor. is, you know, it's kind of overlapping. And one thing I'll tell you is that if I go see, like, a wealthy, successful, like, oil gas guy or, like,

electrician or something, and we show him the metal plate with the coal card, and we explain that to them, the universal reaction that I get is, like, that's fucking awesome. That's fucking, so fucking cool, man. Like, what? You can do that with Bitcoin? Like, and I'm like, yeah, man, you've got the plate

and you got the passphrase. And like, you know, if the government seizes it, like, you know, unless they have the passphrase, you know, you kind of explain those things. And they think it's awesome versus versus if you explain like Bitcoin from like a sailor perspective, you know, nothing wrong with his demographic he's targeting. But it's kind of, it's so geeky. It's so geeky and so lame. It's like, yeah, I guess like, I don't know, if you're like mid curve, it sounds fucking awesome. Like infinite money glitch. It's so cool.

But like it doesn't, it doesn't resonate. with the people that I think are like the actual movers and shakers like, you know, my next, my next thing I'm going to get the CNC machine, you know, that the seed hammer, I think it's called. Yep. And I'm going to get a Pelican case. And every time I orange bill, these like high net worth dudes, I'm bringing the fucking pelican case. And I'm CNCing a seed in front of them.

And I'm explaining what that entails for them and for their family. And like that, that experience is it's possibly the. coolest thing in the world right now. Like it really is. Like imagine your, your successful businessman. You have like $4 million in the bank or something. So you're like rich.

You're not like Bill Gates, rich, but you're rich. You know, you have a big house and shit. And like, you know, someone explains to you the entropy of generating the words, which,

you know, the Trotify guys, they want to say like, oh, but you know, nobody understands that and nobody, nobody, nobody's able to do a coal card and do the seatplate,

you know, like, um, they're going to lose. like no like people people love that they love it when you when you show them how a seed plate works and how the seeds words work and how a cold card works and how self custody works and how a mixer works so so that like it's such a powerful experience you can't you can't remain unmoved when you when you've grasped that and it really fundamentally changes you like buying a stunk online

doesn't change you you know becoming you like making 100% gains in a year people do that with Tesla and like in video you know like it's not yeah okay cool like like you know the Bitcoin stonks are like yeah you know you get fucking awesome returns like I don't know what micro strategy is like 2,000% or something it's like crazy but so is Tesla and so is in video and it's just it's just another stonk that out it's another unicorn stock whereas the Bitcoin experience fundamentally changes you and like once once you let's say that you're like a normie but you're kind of like on the edge of normied them you know you're like you're

normie but like you're normie just because you were raised in normie and because you know that's that's how the not an excuse but you know you came from a normie background and then you never like we all i think had like these moments where we were lucky like we were lucky to be exposed to something like we're not just lucky like we have something inside of us which makes us different it's not luck that makes us who we are but i think all of us had like we met this guy or read this book or like we found this article online and then like some people didn't have that you know like they that they kind of like deserve to have that but that moment that changed it but they didn't have it so like that's what I'm focused on it's like it's like bringing that moments to people being that

being that Gendolf you know that like comes to them and it's like I'm gonna show you a magic trick here right and then you know you can take the red pill or the blue pill but I'm gonna I'm gonna show you the matrix okay I'm gonna show you your pod and then if you want to stay in your pot go like yourself I have I don't care at all. But yeah, I mean, that's, I'm diverging here a little bit, but that is like the greatest joy. The greatest joy in my life is finding someone who deserved to be a bitcorner, but through random chance is not a bitcorner. And, you know, I see comments online about like, well, if you haven't heard about Bitcoin by

now, like, you're, you're retard and like, you don't deserve Bitcoin. And it's like, well, there's largely, there, dude, they're fucking still out there, man. And a lot of these guys are like, I mean, I was just, I was just busy building a coal factory. Like, I didn't have time to learn about Bitcoin. Like, these guys, like, they deserve Bitcoin, you know, and they didn't spend the time to, because they were just doing their thing. Yeah, completely agree. They're just doing their thing. I have a lot to say on that.

But before I do, Svetsky, assuming I have the right camera there, I know that you want to jump in. Yeah, I'll just quickly finish up and just say what Francis was just alluding to there. and this ties into the signal noise ratio as well. I think the ratio will always remain the same and the ratio will max out at 80-20. And what Francis is talking about there is something I wrote about in an essay. Actually, Francis inspired in me many, many years ago,

which was the Remnant series. And in there, I talked about that whole 80-20 setup. And I said, what you want to focus on is the 20% percent. who are still sleeping. So if we look at the 80-20, I would argue that once again, 20% of the 20% of the 20% are definitely into Bitcoin. Maybe 20% of the 20% so that you're talking about 4%. Maybe a large majority of them are in. But you're talking like 16, 17% of the lions, 16% of the centian people are still not. Like we are still so fucking early in this thing that, you know, like there's such room for growth and all that stuff. You've got these people. people, as you said, I was building a fucking coal mine. I was doing this. I was doing that. And my entire thesis around this whole, you can't save all the lemmings, is that you just, I mean, Francis articulated it. You show them the thing. And if they decide to, if their eyes

glazed over, basically, you've identified the normie. If something unlocks, you know, you've identified the quote-unquote remnant. And that's where you want to put your energy. Don't fucking waste your time on the people that want to drown. spend your time on the people that actually want to swim that may just not have been given the chance. Because, you know, nature, I think nature is the thing that fundamentally defines us, but nurture also has a massive impact. So what we need to do is try and get through the nurture to find the nature beneath. And then that's a tricky thing to do.

I think you get better at as you get older. But to think that we can save everyone, that is, you know, where the left, afterways go wrong is they think that everybody is the same and we can save everyone. And no, you can't. You just like, what you need to do is you need to find the lions. You need to find the 20%. You need to wake them up. You need to build with them.

And then the other people, like, there's this great saying when I was young and I, and I've got this in the book. It's three types of people in the world. There's people who make things happen, people who watch things happen and people who wonder what the fuck happened. You know, you've got the majority of people of that last one, right? So they're not going to know why it happened or what happened. you know they're just buying the the model t forward right and you know they go to car and that's it um

and you know if we those of us who have the capacity to do so it's incumbent on us to build and it's incumbent on us not just for altruistic reasons but for the reason that honestly man if i'm not building something i'm fucking dead inside like i like i like i like i like i like i need a mission i need something to build something to contend against and i mean you know i i'm personally like the greatest story in the world in history for me is the story of alexander the great and you know he had after his father died he had everything he had the kingdom he had all of that and he gave it all the way to go and cross the earth on fucking foot and horse to fight battles in mountains in rivers in gullies in valleys in snow in deserts and everything like that

for 13 years straight to reach the end of the earth and like why because he was compelled to something inside him compelled him and i think that is um you know if bitcoin does anything um if it like if it gives men and prime movers like that an opportunity to do more of that then the world is safe forever because you know it doesn't matter like each each one of those kind of people is worth a million and one lemmings and that that That's always been the ratio. It'll always be the case. So I'll shut up and leave it there, guys. I've got to run, spend some time with the wife.

But thank you all for having me on, and I appreciate Francis, Seb, Nathan, all of you guys. Thank you. Later, homie. So glad you could come by and talk to us, especially with your very, very, very pregnant wife at the moment. And congratulations on that. With that, I'm going to go to Seb quickly because I need to get your input in this. You're an educating space as well, too. And to echo Francis's point earlier, yes, I've absolutely had those moments.

Like Ben and I ran this workshop out in Banff, and the guys that were showing up, there were incredibly successful entrepreneurs, but they were, you know, most people, I heard this from, I was having a conversation with Robbie, Robbie the Fire on a podcast the other day, and he said something to me that really stuck with me. It was most people don't care if they make a bad decision so long as it wasn't their decision. It's all about cover your ass, right? They don't care if they make a bad call, long as everybody else is also making a bad call. But when you get into a room of those people, those limited people who do not care about going against the herd,

and they're getting excited about this stuff, it's unbelievably rewarding. Again, older guys, new to the space, actually a bit of mixed ages there, but we were going through coin join and through different privacy tools. We were going through passphrases and trick pins and all the incredible stuff

in key teleport. They want to explore all these things. They were so excited about it and just personally it was so rewarding to actually be there with them. It's like he kind of gets to relive all these little moments that you had through them and it was pure joy.

So Seb, as an educator as well too, what Francis and Alex were talking about there, give me your thoughts. You know, like I couldn't agree more. I think that there's like the Taoist approach, which is like the art of doing by not doing. And I think that when I came into Bitcoin, I was very much just like, I need to make change actively. I need to go out into the world and I need to convert all these people. And what I realized is it's like, and I'm sure like Francis, like Nathan, I'm sure even Sven Skimming is on,

the amount of times I've been in a conversation with someone who's just pushing back, pushing back, pushing back. And it shows they're not interested in a conversation. What they're interested in about is winning the conversation. And so it's just like now, like, I'm always willing to like drop kind of a penny in the water and see if there's ripples, see if they respond, see if there's curiosity. And if there is, I'm willing to invest as much time as they need. But if someone was willing to just constantly push back and they're not really interested in open dialogue, then I don't really need to spend my time with that individual. And what I find so fascinating about Bitcoin right now is it's very unique in relation to other changes throughout history. If we think about like the industrial revolution, it very much did not touch the knowledge. worker, the white collar worker, and it decimated the blue collar worker. What's interesting about Bitcoin and at the same time we're seeing AI is that one, we've got Bitcoin, which is kind of a ground-up revolution. People that benefit from the current system, for some reason they've got these blinders on. They cannot see Bitcoin. And so they're just existing in this system that is

decaying their purchasing power. And then at the same time, you have the developing countries, the people that have been decimated by fiat currency, and they are seeing Bitcoin for really what it is, because they don't benefit from the current system. They don't have those blinders on. And so we've got the system that benefits the average Joe before the elite. And then on top of that, we've got AI, which AI is going for the knowledge worker. The plumber, the blue collar worker, they're not being taken over by A right now. But the knowledge worker, if you're a lawyer, if you're a financial analyst, all of a sudden, they're coming for you.

And so I find it really interesting. We've got these two technologies at the exact same time that is basically going for the elite, the elite the kind of the people that hold the majority of the capital in society and Bitcoin has the potential to completely upend our current structure. And so that I think is really, really fascinating. That's beautiful. I think the perfect place to leave it. Anybody out there who's looking to learn more about Bitcoin,

go check out Seb and go check at Francis at the Learning Bitcoin event, August 16th and 17th in Vancouver. If you need some tutorials to, Ben has gone ahead and organized anything in kind of like a beginner intermediate pro level at the Bitcoin Zero to Hero page, the BTC Sessions.com slash learn. So again, go check that out, level up your skills. And if you need some additional assistance with your Bitcoin setup, of course, as Francis mentioned earlier,

I am working with Bitcoin Mentor doing these one-on-one consults and helping people get onboarded in a streamlined and secure fashion. And with that, guys, make sure you follow Francis and Seb and Alex on Twitter and on Noster. I am Nathan with the BTC sessions, and this has been your bullish session.