BTC Sessions - Cobo Vault Is Now KEYSTONE WALLET - What's The Deal? A Chat With Lixin Liu ep183

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

I sat down with Lixin Liu to discuss the reason for renaming the Cobo Vault to Keystone, what happened with the Cobo as a company, and what's in store for Keystone Wallet moving forward.   Grab the new Keystone Wallet here: http://bit.ly/KeyStoneSessions  Lixin on Twitter https://twitter.com/BitcoinLixin Keystone Twitter https://twitter.com/KeystoneWallet  Keystone Blog Post https://blog.keyst.one/leaving-cobo-to-continue-the-cobo-vault-legacy-29bb2f8f026e 💪 SUPPORT THE SHOW: Buy Bitcoin In Canada With Bitbuy - get $20 free! https://bitbuy.ca/en/sign-up/?c=BTCSessions LEDN Bitcoin backed loans –  get $25 free https://bit.ly/397rlLN Get Wasabi wallet for Bitcoin privacy https://wasabiwallet.io/ BillFodl: get your wallet backups in solid steel. https://privacypros.io/btcsessions Bitrefill: use Bitcoin to purchase gift cards https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/?code=O04UMic9 BITCOIN LIGHTNING tips: https://strike.me/btcsessions

Wasabi wallet and fairly private. A number of you may be users of the Kobo Vault, and you may have seen recently a number of tweets, some blog posts and some different posts around a new product called the Keystone Wallet that looks very, very similar, if not identical, to the Kobo Vault. You may be wondering, what the hell is the deal with that? What's going on? Is this a new company? Is it just a name change?

What is happening there? And that is exactly what is going to be addressed in my interview today with Leishin Liu, now of Keystone, formerly of Kobo and the Kobo Vault. We're going to detail exactly what has happened in terms of his relationship with Kobo the company and the new project known as Keystone Wallet, what the differences and similarities between the Kobo Vault product and the Keystone wallet now are what is happening with Kobo Vault moving forward, what is happening with Keystone moving forward, and basically all of the questions that I had regarding this as well. So hopefully all of this interview will

nicely sum up in a neat little package exactly what has gone on behind the scenes there. And I do have a Keystone wallet myself now, which I do plan on doing a full video on in the future, so keep eyes out for that. But without further ado, here is my interview with Leishin Lou of Keystone Wallet. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. If you are backing up any important Bitcoin wallet, you need to get your seat phrase in solid steel on the bill foddle.

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Welcome back. For those that are unfamiliar with who you are, would you like to introduce yourself and what you do? Okay, Ben, thanks for having me first. Okay, so for your audiences, my name is B. Xinb. Yeah. Previously, I was the head of hardware of COBOL, and I was leading the team to develop the hardware wallet COBOLBOLB. And it's been covered by BIN for several times. Not only the interoperability with blue wallet, spirals, vector, but also multi-signature with other software wallets. And we have the team, the team and I, we have left the COBOL and started a new hardware wallet brand called Keystone. This product takes almost all the Lexi features from Cobolvote, not only the BTC-only firmware, but also the compatibility and the interoperability with other software wallets and also multi-signature.

So almost the same, but we did some improvements on the product. So I'm happy to talk about the rebranding here. And also I'm happy to continuously serve the community with a very good hardware wallet. Yes. Awesome. Well, I'm really glad to have you. Obviously, there's been a lot of questions around the rebrand, the new name, everything. So I think a good way to start it is maybe, because if anybody is watching this that hasn't tried the cobo or hadn't seen any of the old videos, you can go back and take a look at those. But what I wanted to start with was maybe a little bit about what. some of your goals were as you were, you know, with the Kobo team and what you were trying to build there and kind of what you were able to accomplish there. Okay. Before moving to Keystone. Okay. Okay. So when we were at Kobo Vault, actually we set up several goals or several like missions we want to achieve. The first one is that we truly believe that the user experience

of Bitcoin should be improved. That's the first thing. Because five years ago, Bitcoin is like a very geek thing, and only the technical guys or developers can handle Bitcoin and can understand Bitcoin. And right now, we are seeing the revolution, like, go through the whole world, even for things like our survival thing. Right?

So maybe in the next 10 years, billions of people will start using Bitcoin or, like, how do Bitcoin for themselves. So this is the first to believe that at the top of our head, which is the user experience must be highly improved for Bitcoin. So we feel like for hardware wallets and for hardware wallets like other products, they have very tiny screens and also small buttons.

It's not only about bad experience, it's also about it's very hard for you to verify the information on your hardware wallet. So this is the first thing. So then we come up with the idea that we should make a hardware wallet with big screen. This is very essential for user experience because the closer, the user experience is to your mobile phone, the easier people can start using it.

So it's very obvious. That's the first thing. The second thing is that I interviewed a lot of your coiners before. we make the product. One important question I asked them is that what's the most anxious moment when you feel if you're using a product ledger or treasurer? Actually, the answer was quite a line.

Everyone told me that the moment I'm plugged into my laptop is the most anxious time when I'm using ledger or treasurer. So I think this is one improvement we really should make, which is we should make the hardware wallet as so I admire Treasers work they open source everything so for open source part and they are doing very well and after years of work for security part ledger is also doing very well they have secure elements and we can learn this thing from them but one big improvement we see is

that we should like we should stop the people's anxious when they're using Beto or Treasor we should make a hard what as air gap as possible so then that's we have the design for the QR code scanning and also microaistic card to transmit the, oh, for MacombaCard we learned from code card. I think they are also doing very, very well for that to create the 100% error gap experience. So, and so we leverage the QR code too, to even make it one step further for user experience. So this was our like main standing point for designing the product. And yeah, again, I'm a product manager for hardware for almost a day.

So I really see things from a product wise, not from a marketing or something. So we really see the improvements that we should make should bring to the community. And then it came out to the COBOLBOL. Yeah, awesome. And so I've obviously I've used the COBOLPOL quite a bit. I've done a lot of multi-sig work with it. I've tried pairing it with just a ton of different third-party wallets as well, third-party software wallets.

So I've been using it for quite some. time. A lot of people have been using it. Let's talk a little bit about kind of what happened to cause the split and the new name Keystone. What happened behind the scenes to cause you to break off on your own? And then also as you talk about that, maybe let people know who is involved with the new product Keystone like from that was previously at Copo, like who came along from. the ride. Okay, okay. So, Cobol was set up in China back in 2000, in the middle of 2017. So first, they built up cobal based on the idea that, basically, they have two assumptions. The first assumption is Chinese people are not so against centralized services. So lots of

Chinese people and they don't, they don't like the cumbersome of self-custody. And also, they're not willing to learn too much about the consensus or the basic knowledge about Bitcoin, but they want to make money. So this is the mindset of the, they're mostly like very optimistic investors. So Chinese Bitcoin is here. They're, they don't care too much about the basic knowledge or the fundamental logic of, you know, Bitcoin. So based on this and also at that time, the two founders of Kobo, they see a big trend that a lot of Chinese people, they are entering this space. So their decision is they wanted to offer a centralized service for the newcomers here in China. And obviously for the newcomers,

if they are okay, we centralize the service. Offer them with some user experience like register your account with your email or with your mobile phone, this is the easiest way. So this is how they get started. And right now, the cobal wallet is very big here in China. And they also offer financial services for the Bitcoin owners to give them like 5% or 6% annual return for if you deposit your Bitcoin into the wallet. So this is like there are also a big chunk of traders here in China. They use exchanges.

And also there are some of the newcomers. They use the COBOLW wallet as a very steady annual income, something like this. So a couple wallet is very big now here in China. And it's almost like the coin base in the States right now. So it's a huge common. And they are making tons of money because it's much easier to make money. centralized services. And at the end of 2017, after they established COBOLWR for about half a year, they feel that they should offer a kind of

like a full solution for the Bitcoiners here in China, which means because the founders, they have strong background with the miners here in China. So for those miners, some of them may want a solution or the hardware forecast for self-custly, which is hardware wallet. So they feel that if we see COBOL as a big umbrella for a full Bitcoin solution, and then they should not only offer centralized, but decentralized services, which is COBOLBOLB. So they kind of incubated me as the, so we have a Sabardian company here in China to make the Kubovalt. And actually, I'm the CEO of the Sabot company. So they kind of incubated us as a

separate team to develop and make the Kubovalt. So everything is independent here for Kubbobalt. We have independent HR, independent finance. So everything is independent. They just invest money. And I was leading the team to develop the whole product. Okay. So the entire time, it was quite, it was quite segregated. You were kind of, you were under their umbrella, but it was your own team. It was you guys all specifically working. Yeah. Actually, for Kobo team, we're in Shanghai, they're in Beijing. Also, we're in different places. Oh, I didn't even realize that. Okay. Yeah. So it's kind of separate from from COVID. And yeah. And then it comes to, I think, late 2020. and that was a bull market.

They are making a lot of money. They are also raising a new series of funds. And at the time, they feel that. And also at the time, we also developed the second generation of Kobobalt in middle 2020. And our target market pivot from China market to Western market. And also we bring down the price under 200 bucks. for the first generation, it was quite expensive, and you received that product before,

and it's quite premium. And for the second generation, we kind of, we were welcomed by the Bitcoin community because we are doing very well on the air gaping and also about testing nature. But at their time, Cobol's founder found that it's kind of the linkage between Cobble Vault and the Cobol wallet are broken,

because for Cobble Vault, it's focused on Western market and for global wallet, it's in China. And they were thinking that these two product lines should have some kind of synergy, for example, then it makes sense for offering a full solution for the users. So this is the first reason they were thinking about abandoned Kabul Vault. That's the first reason. The second reason is that they wanted to recruit us to work for a global wallet, because they are having a huge goal for COBOLWOLWR,

and also the company was shot-handed. And they thought that for a couple-bobot team, we have very strong execution power, and they really like what we were delivering, even though that, we were delivering the stuff, but that didn't have any synergy with COBOLWOLWR, but they are the Maya we have worked for. So they were trying to recruit us back,

to the COBOL wallet team and work for COBOL wallet. And obviously, this was totally unacceptable for our team. So we refused their offer. And then also, I personally, I bought out all the intellectual properties of COBOLT, and then we left the COBOL to create keystone. So this was the background story. So effectively, like the goals of the COBOL company and, the goals of your team in and around the global vault, they just totally separated.

You know, they were focused, centralized, you know, custody model, whereas you guys were, and you're right, it does align a lot more with kind of a Western look at Bitcoin, where it's like, don't trust, verify, hold your own keys, multi-say, all of those things that a lot of Western Bitcoiners hold dear, I guess, just did. line up with the model in China. Yes. And another thing I want to emphasize is that after this split off, I felt that the mindset of centralized the service and decentralized services are totally different.

I can give an example. So when I went to Beijing to demo the QR code experience with them, with the managing team of COBOL, the first question they asked me is that. have you applied a patent for this QR code experience? The exact opposite of the open source ethos, yeah. Yeah, I was totally speechless. So I didn't know how to answer this question. So I want to use this example to tell you that the mindset was totally different.

So I think the speed out, even though we have synergies to this product, the speed of what happens soon or later. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So now you guys have split off to your own brand. It's still all of the, like did the whole team come with you to Keystone then? Yes, yes, the whole team. The whole team is with me because that's awesome. Because actually, actually the developing, the developers really enjoy the open source work.

They really enjoy the collaboration between like other developers and we can talk about. technology with other people from all around the world. And also, Kobobaut was setting to over 40 countries. It was very, they feel very achievable for their work. So, and they, they just follow me. And they haven't worked for Kobo Wadden before. If they work for COBOLWOLO Watt, it's a huge question mark for them. Yeah.

Yeah. And they are not in Beijing either. So why don't we just start doing a new brand. and under our control. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. So I guess one of the things that has come up, and there's been blog posts that you guys have done about this,

but I believe you guys offered to the COBOL wallet team to offer, what, like upgrade software and stuff into the old COBO, but it's not possible. Like what's going on there in terms of, support for the old cobo. Yeah. Actually, our original plan was that we want to offer a migration firmware for the cobo vault devices.

So after the migration, the cobo vault devices will be running the Keystone firmware because their software structure and hardware infrastructure, all this stuff are the same. So actually, the Cobobot can migrate to Keystone firmware. and then they can install the following updates of the Keystone firmware. Actually, this was the original plan. But when we were sharing this to here, another thing I want to emphasize is that Kobobovat doesn't accept a third-party firmware for security reasons. Because when we design Kobovalt, we feel that if we allow Kobovolk to accept third-party

firmware, that is a big attack surface. because if a newcomer he asked a question on Telegram about Kobovalt, then the hacker may pretend them to be an official Kobovat guy and ask the newcomer to install a malicious third-party firmware. So we felt that that was a huge attack surface. So when we were designing Kobolabult, we didn't allow third-party firmware. So the firmware has to be signed by a specific key, then the COBOLVAL can recognize

it's an official firmware release and then do the installation and everything. So we share the idea to offer the migration firmware to COBOLB to COBOWalleting, but they refused for that proposal because the reason is that they, as I said,

they have really like strong mindset for custodial service or centralized service. They felt that for the user, users are co-bo's assets. And for the IP, for the intellectual properties, I can sell that to Li-Shing. But for the users, no matter how much you pay,

I cannot sell them to you. I cannot sell them to you. Those are my assets. And also, another reason is that there are lots of Kobobot users here in China. So actually, they want to convert those users to COBOL wallet. They just give them some extra interest rate. For example, I give others 5%.

I give you 8% for six months. Then you send your Bitcoins in your Kobobov to Kobo Wadet, this kind of thing. So they were planning this kind of stuff. And then they refused to offer the help to sign the migration program. So then we cannot offer that to all the users. It was a huge, yeah, it's hurting the community. and yeah it was nothing it was nothing on the part of your team like you were fully prepared to offer the migration firmware but cobo the company refused that to to make that possible for current

cobo owners which is which is super unfortunate now in that same vein you guys are trying to do do right by the people that have a cobo vault love what you guys did myself included and so you're you're extending an offer to some people that currently have the Kobolvold that would like to migrate to Keystone. Yes, yes. If you forward your order confirmation email, either it's a Amazon, you order from Amazon or you order from our e-commerce shop, you just forward the other confirmation email to support at keist.1, which is our domain, K-E-Y-S-T dot one, keystone.

forward the other confirmation email to support at case dot one and then we will share a 50% of coupon to you so this is the max we can we can do and yeah we feel this is the right thing even though the cannot offering the migration firm or it's definitely not our fault actually we have made the firmware we had made the migration firmware and then the co-mo team refused to sign the framework so we cannot do anything then even though it's not our fault but i personally i feel really sorry for the community and that's why we're offering the discount for the yeah yeah and i do like i do have the the the new one i got it here came just the other day so i'm i'm excited to uh nice to to test it out i will be doing a video uh on it in in the next uh week or two but um

but yeah i'm very excited to get going on that so let's let's talk about now that we've kind of gone through what happened with the splits and the creation of Keystone, let's talk about Keystone itself and kind of, first of all, let's talk about some of the same features that were migrated from the original Kobo that are now also included in Keystone. And then let's talk about some of the additional features that have been added to Keystone. So maybe if you know the product well. Yeah, I think the biggest change, maybe you can show the product to the camera. The biggest change is that we move out the micro SD card. Yeah, this is the small slot. This is the micro SD card. Because we were receiving tons of complaints

saying that the previous microSD card hiding behind the battery, it's not easy to plug. and play. And because some people are using microSD card to translate huge PSBD transactions, which cannot be handled by QR code, even dynamic QR code. So they need to plug the microSD card very often. So and then that's the reason we move out the microSD card slot, which should make the user experience better. And yeah, again, we improve the product.

based on people's complaints. Awesome. I was excited to see that. I was like, yes, and now upgrading and everything easier. Yeah. Yeah.

Actually, if we didn't make the change, we can ship it, I think at least one and a half months earlier, but we choose to make this change, even though someone was asking me that we need a device or something, but we still need to do the right thing. Even there is some kind of delay for the shipping.

So, yeah, this is the first thing. The second thing, Also, a improvement on the micro-sd-card is that previously for Cobobot, it can only accept a micro-sd-card with storage below 32 gigabytes. So it was kind of, I can totally feel people's, like, annoying. They like the product, they order the product, and wait for like one or two weeks, maybe one

week, and then they suddenly realized that it can only accept. the microacart below 32 gigabytes. Then they have to go back to a electronic store or they have to order another microacart on Amazon to use the Kovovol, then another like three or four or five days. So I can totally feel the feelings of the users when they're complaining this to me. So for this generation, we can accept microacartzic card below 512 gigabytes.

Okay, wow. And for this move, we also want to make the product more future-proof, which means that I can imagine that after maybe five years, maybe it's really hard for you to purchase a micro-hcd card below 32 gigabytes. So if we see, because for hardware wallets, it's not like a mobile phone, maybe you use a hardware wallet three or five years. So when we design the product, we have to make it future-proof. This is very important.

And this is also part of the main reasons why we improve the micro-hastikaad experience. Yeah, that's the second thing. The third thing, there are also some other improvements. For example, we increase the QR code scanning speed. Yeah, I may share a video later as a comparison for these products. Another thing we improved was the battery. We didn't improve the battery capacity because that needs some big changes on the fun factor, but we improve the anti-current search capability because in some countries,

they have very unsteady current, and that may damage our old model of battery, so we improve this. And for the software-wise, we completely move our QR code standard to BCR-U-R-2.0, which is a more advanced and more steady QR code protocol made by blockchain commons. So we moved to this new standard and also we pushed the blue wallet specter and spiral to the new standard. And now almost everyone was aligned on a long-term maintain new standard for QR code. This is also, I think it's a good thing for the community, for the whole community, not only for one product, but for the whole community.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember seeing I was looking through the some of the GitHubs and everything. I think it was for Sparrow and a couple of the others. And they were talking about the standards for for these air gap QR codes and talking about upgrading. And I remember seeing your team in there discussing upgrading with them. So yeah, that was really cool to see. I'm super happy to see that that rolled out. Maybe let's let's talk a little bit about compatibility because. You know, one thing that I really loved using Kobo was seeing support for it pop up for all of these different wallets. And it seems like you guys are really pushing to have more of the same with the Keystone, making sure that it's compatible across the board. Where are you at with compatibility right now? And are there more wallets that you're working with in the future? Where are we sitting? Right now, a big news, I'm not sure I can disclose this, but yeah, maybe I can see it. Right now we are integrating with CASA.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so CASA is coming. And also, I was also talking to CASA team. Maybe after the integration, we can ask some YouTubers like you to show the use of CASA, between CASA and the Kistel. Yeah, actually, funny enough, I was just talking with Nick. from CASA saying, oh, it's probably time that I do a CASA multisic video. So there we go. Okay.

Actually, actually, they have very, I think James and Lov was doing great. Especially they have a mechanism called health check. So they ask their users to sign a message like every month or every other month to make sure that all the signers you're using are purpose. perfectly performing. So I think this is very, very important, not only for CASA users, but for all the Bitcoiners. If you're using self-custody system or schemes, if you don't touch your Bitcoin often, you should do like health check every month or every other month to make sure that everything is perfectly important. This is very important. And I really like the idea. And I think

this idea should be promoted not only to CASA users. but also to all the Bitcoiners. Even though you're not using multi-sick, you still need to do health check for your signer. Yeah, 100%. And in terms of other compatibility, like Blue Wallet is, this thing's already Blue Wallet capable, correct?

I think Blue Wallet is going to release their new version. After they release their new version, you can work with. Right now, Sparrow was released. And I think Specter were released within this week or maybe early next week. We have done all the development and the testing. We're just waiting for them to release the new version.

And also another thing is after CASA, we're going to integrate with Caravan also for. Oh, awesome. I'll have to do another video on that too, because I did do caravan a while back. And I remember, you know, at the time when I did my caravan video, I think it was just Ledger and Treasor. they've since integrated cold card and I was waiting on Keystone to get in there.

So I'm excited to see that popping up. That's great. That's good news. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

And also we're interested in recently. I'm not sure you've seen the wallet of Moon wallet. Yeah. Yeah. They're very cool. M-U-U-M-U. Yeah. We're not talking to them.

Just we're not talking to them. But we're very interested with. integration with what else. That would be cool. They're doing something really, really cool. We really, really admire their work. Yeah, I just dropped a video about Moon and I really, they've got something unique going on there.

And I like the idea. Like right now, it's by default, it's lightning because it's a single unified balance that can accept regular Bitcoin transactions as well. But it would be really cool if they had a like a, a tab or a secondary place where it's like your vaults can be there and then, you know, your hardware can be utilized. Yeah, yeah. But we haven't talked to them.

Personally, I'm just, the team was very, very, like, excited when they see the wallet. And if you know them, please. Yeah. I'll put you guys in contact. That would be cool. That would be cool. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. Let's, I want to talk about open sourcing stuff. because there was a really good blog post from you guys called on open source and transparency. And you guys kind of went through what you're doing to be as transparent and as open source as possible with your product, which, funny enough, like you were saying, dealing with the, the COBOL wallet team was kind of where you guys diverged with ideologies. And so you guys have kind of been putting forth a solid effort to be as open source and transparent as possible. So maybe can you talk about what you've done in that realm and where Keystone is at currently? Okay.

Actually, for Keystone, for the openness and transparency, we just took all the legacy from Cobalt. Nothing has changed for open source and transparency. and we open source everything we can do. First, here I want to share one idea about open source is that open source is just like security. There is no absolute open source in this world. So when you are building something, especially you're building hardware,

more or less, you will face some kind of proprietary intellectual properties of others. And usually as those things are by the big companies, usually you cannot open source that part. So for me, I always share to the community that open source is like a spectrum. It's like a spectrum. It's not like a one or zero thing. It's a spectrum.

So for Treasurer and CodeCard, they are at the very end of the open source. But you cannot say they are totally open source. It's impossible. But they are to the very end of totally open source. And for Ledger, they're like in the, middle or Biddle goes to the dead side a little bit because they open source the app on the ledger, but for the secure element, due to the proprietary intellectual property, they cannot do any open source on that. For us, we make one step further compare, but I should admit we're

not as open source as Codd Codd Cod and Treasor. I cannot deny that. We're not as open source set them. But if we compare Keystone to ledger, we make one step further, which is we open source the firmware of the secure element. Okay. Can you describe what that enables people to audit if you open source the secure element? Okay, cool. Good question. So actually for our secure element, the not open source part is, first is the random number generation. This is not open source. This is done by the secure element vendor. But for this part, we allow people to generate their own recovery phase by rolling dice or create their own 23 words.

So this on open source part can be bypassed. The second part that is not open source is the cryptographic algorithms. Those are not open source. But those are much easier to verify because you just give the input and check out the output, whether it's aligned with other realizations of other algorithms, cryptographic algorithms. For other stuff in the secure elements, which is how we store the private key, how we do the key duration, and how we receive message from the system, and how we send a message to the core part of the security to do the signing, everything,

key derivation, key storage, and other stuff. Yeah, for those part, those parts are in the secure element firmware, and those part are open source. And those parts are done by us, so we can open source that. Awesome. So I'm, and I'm just looking at the blog post here. So you guys have, sorry. I'm just really quickly taking a peek here.

So you guys have the software is open source. You've also released, I believe. Audit report, code auditing report. Yeah. This is the first one. Yeah. And you also released in regards to the actual hardware. Yeah, hardware design.

Yeah, schematic. Yeah, schematics, hardware design. Yeah, and also the audit report. So we haven't released everything we can release. But I have to say there are some kind of like proprietary IP that we cannot do. Yeah. And also another thing is that right now we're trying to develop our next generation, our pistol.

And the biggest thing we want to achieve for next generation is making open source of one step. further. So right now, the most part of the community is criticizing is that we're using Android, and for that part, it's closed-source. So for next generation, we have two rods. The first route is, the first route is completely remove Android. So making something like Spectre DIY, and then we can fully open-source that. That's the first option we are considering. The second option we are considering is moving to Graffini OS, which is also totally open source. And if we go to Graffney Rot, we can leverage more of our current work because the Graffini OS can adapt to Android app, APKs.

So it's easier for us. So we're trying to do some early research on that. And hopefully, hopefully, I cannot make any promise, but hopefully at the end of next year or the early 2023, we can release the new generation of Keystone. Awesome. Now, we've kind of gone through the device and everything that it entails. I wanted to ask and ask on one other topic in regards to, and this has come up a lot over the past year or so, is in regards to customer data retention.

because, you know, there's been, we've seen the ledger hack, and actually that's just making the rounds on the news yet again because customers of ledger are now being mailed, malicious fake products to fish them out of, fish them out of their money. So what is, is Keystone doing in regards to customer data retention by default to, are you guys doing something to help protect you? users in that realm. Okay. Right now the default is that after you place your order, and after 180 days you place your order, we will delete your email, your address, and your phone number. Yes. So here, the 180 days is due to the payment process.

because sometimes they're kind of like dispute on the others. And usually for the payment processors, they accept disputes within 180 days. So after 180 days, because we also receive some scammers, like place the order and the dispute, cancel the order, get refunded, but don't send back the product, this kind of thing.

So this is only prevention for those scammers. And for those people, if you have no dispute of your order, after you receive the product, you just send us an email to support at casea dot 1, confirming that you don't have any dispute of the order. Then we can delete your information immediately. Awesome. Yeah. So this is our like data. But yeah, some people are asking why don't you delete everything right before they receive the release? see a product. So I just wanted to explain that all the dispute is a huge problem,

especially with those payment processors. Yeah. Yeah. And one thing I would, since we're on the topic as well, one thing I would say to those that are ordering products and you're worried about your own personal data, it's a good practice to, if you're buying Bitcoin related products, you may want to consider having a PO box. Because if you do that, then it protects your address from malicious third parties in the event of any sort of data leakage. So it is a good practice to have a PO box when you're ordering that kind of stuff. Yes. If you don't have a PO box, even just use your working location.

It's better than your home address. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. So I guess I have in kind of like wrapping everything up, I guess my last kind of question to you is is what are you guys most focused on right now? Like what's what's in your kind of in the forefront of your mind for Keystone to kind of build up obviously the new brand. You guys are launched to the products are shipping.

So what's at the forefront of your mind? What are your immediate goals right now? Okay. So we can break that into like short term, midterm, long term. So in short term, the most important thing are still integration for us in the short term. Because we see ourselves as a, I usually tell my team that we are making a codeblower signer. So we want to make the signer compatible with all kinds of software wallets.

No matter you are single-sig multi-sig, you're a mobile wallet or you're a desktop wallet or anything. We just leverage the QR code of compatibility to be compatible with others. In short term, this is the most important thing. So, Casa, Caravan, or even Moonwadet, yeah, this is our short-term goal. The midterm goal for us, which is really important, is we should support different languages. This is a big project because, for example, El Salvador, this big Spanish, and also we're receiving lots of others from Portuguese speaking countries or even Japan.

Yeah, or even some. Yeah, also Germany is one of our biggest, like, country. We have tons of supporters because Spectre was there. So Spector really, really support us and a lot of German people like Kobobot or now the Keystone. So also for Germany. So in the mid-term, and which support is the most important for us. And in the long run, we're also looking into the tap route.

And also we're looking into new generation device development. These are the most important thing for long-term development. Awesome. Wow. It sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Lots of stuff on the plate. But I'm honestly very glad that rather than, you know, throwing in the towel and just going to work on like a custodial centralized solution with the COBOL wallet that you guys decided to move forward and keep the work that you've already done

and build upon it, even if it meant having to split off entirely on your own and create an entirely new brand. I'm glad you guys are doing what you do. And I think it's very important to have lots of different options out of there. And my Kobo and now my Keystone, I'm sure, will become very integral in, especially I really enjoy using this with multi-six setups. So Lysian, I will say thank you very much for spending time with me to kind of go through everything that's been going on with you. Is there any resources, anything you'd like to point people towards if they want to learn more outside of I will be doing a video, of course, in the coming weeks here. Yeah.

Again, my Twitter is Bitcoin leashing and the DMs are open. If you have any suggestions, yesterday I just received a very good suggestion I didn't think about. I didn't thought about. So people are asking me to use dice rolling to generate Shamir recovery phrase. Oh, wow. So right now we do Shamir recovery phrase only with our random number generation. So one user just DM me asking that why don't we make it more trust-case? Can we use a dice routing to create Shamir secrets for my recovery phrase?

Oh, I said, oh, that's an awesome idea. You're so clever. I didn't think about that before. So immediately I tell the team, and they are also excited to make our product more trust-based. So again, just if you have any like suggestions, any complaints, you just ask me on Twitter. But if you have like other, you need to get updates of the shipping information or something, you send email to the support at PCD1, and then we will try our best to reply to you within 24 hours. Yeah.

So again, I'm really thankful to the community. I'm really thankful for the people who continue to support us. And I feel very, very rewarded for making a product and also to continue offering the service to the community. Yeah. And also, thank you. Thank you so much, Ben. Thank you so much for your support. And thank you for your time.

Thanks for having it. Yeah. No worries, man. I really loved having you here. And of course, anybody watching everything that we talked about today, I will try to load up all the links down below if you're investigating. I'll leave the blog of the website, Elysian's Twitter, all of that stuff will be down there. So be sure to check it out.

And again, thank you for spending the time with me. Thank you, Ben. Thank you guys so much for watching and or listening. If you are here on YouTube, please do hit like, subscribe, and share all of those things really do help get this content in front of more eyeballs. If you want to help out the show in another way, you can head any of the previously mentioned sponsors

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With that, I am out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening wherever you may be, and I'll see you guys next time for your daily session. Oh, the bitch, mind.