BTC Sessions - Did They JUST BREAK MicroStrategy?! WTF Is Happening? | Jeff Walton, Dr. Ammous & Joey Temprile

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

Something big is happening behind the scenes—and MicroStrategy might be in serious trouble. Jeff Walton (Punter Jeff), Dr. Ahmad Ammous, and Joey Temprile break down the shocking developments and what they could mean for Bitcoin’s biggest corporate holder.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/PunterJeffhttps://x.com/AmmousMDhttps://x.com/JoeyTweeetsFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCpCRYPTOCLOAKShttps://qrco.de/bg5Dvo#btc #bitcoin #crypto

Bitcoin is up this month and it's knocking at the door of new all-time highs yet again. So why is Microstrategie down 11% for the month right now? Is the correlation with Bitcoin breaking as many panicked tweets have been stating? Or is there something bigger at play? They did just smash their quarterly earnings, posting billions and unrealized gains from their Bitcoin stack. yet the stock's been sliding a little bit. So does this call into question the whole idea of public companies doubling as Bitcoin treasuries?

Is the market starting to lose interest or see cracks in the strategy? Or are we just zoomed in on too short of a time period and short-term noise? Now, apart from this, we also have some breaking news in and around Google, making a potentially horrifying move when it comes to Bitcoin's self-custom. requiring Bitcoin wallets in the plane store in the play store for licensing and registration with financial institutions or with regulatory agencies is at the end of KYC wallet, non-KYC wallets and personal privacy as we know it. Today, to enlighten this, us on this and many more things, we have Jeff Walton, VP of Bitcoin

Strategy at Strive Funds, founder of the True North podcast and co-host on Hurtle Rate podcast. He'll be joined by Dr. Ahmad Amuse, whose brother literally wrote the book on Bitcoin. He's an orange-pilled medical doctor with a bone to pick when it comes to modern Fiat medicine and to bring some spice and a devil's advocate position potentially to my take on the Google topic. We've got Joey from the Canadian Bitcoinsers podcast. Stay tuned. You're not going to want to miss this one. I am Ben with the VTC sessions, and this is your bullish session. All right, I want to welcome to the stage and Jeff Walton. We've got Dr. Ammon Amos and, of course, buddy Joey from over at Canadian Bitcoiners.

Gentlemen, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you guys coming to get bullish with me on a Wednesday evening. And I started with the strategy topic because I've seen a couple of tweets as always when the prices seem to diver. There's all this speculation. Is it over? Are we done? Is the whole strategy playbook played out? Jeff, you look unconcerned, but I did want to just quickly kind of tee you up. And I think it segues nicely into your reason for being bullish today. So just really quick, I'm just going to pull up the strategy page here and I'll put us off to the side so we can be pretty together. But yeah, so I mean, we're looking at, you know, micro strategies at 389.

almost 390. It's that the MNAV is continuing to go down a little bit. So it's down about 3%. And there's all these people that are, you know, oftentimes Bitcoin's at all-time high and MSTR is trading under 400. Is the strategy flywheel broken or is the most hated rally of all time coming? And then we have here MSTR halting the equity agent. BTM was a mistake, while only peanuts are coming in from other prefs.

BTT yield is on pause, weakening the justification for an MNAB premium. So I'm going to stop chatting about something I'm not super qualified to talk about. And I'm going to defer to Jeff here. And Jeff, I want your take on this. And I'm going to give you free rein to segue into your topic on being bullish from there. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Glad to be back. I love this show. And, you know, it's a good question. And a lot of people are concerned about this topic right now. They're looking at Bitcoin trading near all-time highs and they're seeing MSTR struggle on a relative performance basis, which I think is a fair question. If you haven't been following this space for a really long time, I think that the simplest and easiest answer is that these are two fundamentally different things. Bitcoin is a The commodity and MSTR strategy is an equity. And the reason I'm not concerned at all is because if you if you just zoom out and you just

take a look at the balance sheet strength and you look at strategy in general, they've got $77 billion of capital. And that number, as Bitcoin is hitting all time highs, that number is getting larger and larger and larger. And the relative leverage that they have in the balance sheet is getting smaller, smaller and smaller. So that is providing capacity to grow their leverage sustainably and safely into the future. Now one of the biggest unlocks here that a large portion of the market doesn't understand,

doesn't get, they're not behind the curtain is the monumental size and scale of these new preferred equity instruments that have been released in the last six months. So they've issued four new equity instruments, which are effectively debt-like instruments that operate as equity. do not have a debt maturity. So they are significantly better than the convertible debt that they've issued in the past. One of the biggest unlocks here in this entire thing is that they have shelf ATM registrations on each one of these new perpetual preferred equities. So that means they can raise debt capital at the click of a button and probably a phone call to their bankers,

which is huge. And a lot of people don't recognize this. When they wanted to go raise convertible debt in the past, they would have to go out to the market. And they'd have to go out to the market. And they'd have to go out to the market and put a presentation together. Here's this presentation. Here's how much capital we got on the raise. And then they need to go negotiate terms. The market would come back with the terms that they wanted. MSTR would try to negotiate those.

There would be negotiations on the interest rates. The whole thing had to get negotiated. And it was a big long process. And it got faster and faster as they got more efficient operating that capital market. But now that that whole equation is fundamentally changed. And now they can whenever they want to raise debt capital, they can issue. They can issue debt capital. Issued debt capital.

And that is an enormous unlock here. Additionally, that debt capital doesn't have a maturity, whereas historically, the convertible debts that they raised in the balance sheet had a maturity. There was a point in time where they did either have to refinance, pay the capital back, or convert it into equity. And now these new instruments, there is no debt maturity and only one of the instruments is convertible into equity. So it's a much more efficient form of leverage to take on their balance sheet.

and they have the ability to leverage their balance sheet a little bit higher than they would historically because the characteristics of the debt are different. So like for me, when I'm looking at the stock performance, I'm not, I'm not concerned about this whatsoever for multiple reasons. One, because I believe in Bitcoin and I've got Bitcoin as a core holding. Two, because I see MSTR as an equity subject to different market factors at different points in time. For example, we are at August 13th. August is historically the lowest volume month for equities across all indices and all like NASDAQ and NIC and all of those things. So all of the money managers are out at the lake.

They're riding their boats. They're out at the Hamptons. And there's just not a lot of attention on equity market. So August historically can get a little distorted and weird. So I'm bullish because they're sitting on so much money. people can't conceptualize, like they have $66 billion of net capital on their balance sheet. That is incredibly strong. And that number is going higher and higher as Bitcoin gets higher.

So that improves the credit quality of the debt that they're issuing into the market. And the proof of concept here is you've got other companies that are coming in that are copying and emulating what strategy is doing. And that will help with the future credit ratings of these instruments and the market to start conceptualizing this transformation of risk into the digital realm beyond what they're used to in the physical realm. Now, I've got a question for you, and I actually asked this of Sailor recently. He came on, and I was asking in around, and forgive my ignorance around this, but I figured it'd be a good chance on this show. No dumb questions. No dumb questions. Yeah. So, so, The question that a lot of people often have is, you know, what what prevents this from being like an over levered play?

And he was saying that, you know, people will use the example. Oh, well, what if a company is not making any money, they go out and they get a bunch of debt and then they finance it to buy Bitcoin. And then Bitcoin goes the wrong direction on them. And then they have to sell it a bad time. And his, you know, when he was talking about it, well, you can't get the kind of leverage, you know, You're, you know, I think what. Yeah. Yeah.

So why is that? Can you explain a little bit about why that's just not available? Why it's, in your opinion, it might be unlikely to see something like that? Or is that just something we're not seeing right now? Yeah. Well, the market dictates this, right? So if they were in a position where, let's just say the debt was even with the amount of equity that they had on the balance sheet. So let's just say they had $70 billion of debt, the market would be much.

less willing to give them terms on any future transaction. The preferred equity instruments would start trading and reflecting the increased risk associated with it as well. And they would have to start making the decision, do I want to raise debt capital at a 20% interest rate or a 30% interest rate? And that's what the equation would come to. And when you look at this balance sheet right now, they've got $77 billion of capital, the price of Bitcoin would have fall in a half, but, you say go back down to 60,000. A lot of us would be cheering would be like, great, I can, you know, get more Bitcoin. And then if you look at the strategy balance sheet, you'd have $35 billion of capital relative to $14 billion of debt. If you were a risk underwriter,

you'd take that trade all day, every day. Like, that's still a great, that's still a great trade. That you could probably get really good rates or strategy wouldn't get good rates. But if you were a capital deployer and you're looking at offering somebody capital, you'd probably get a great deal at that point in time, as long as you felt comfortable with Bitcoin. And I try to rationalize this in the perspective of a normal human being the other day. Let's just say you've got just a person, okay, and then wants to buy a house and they need to get a loan. Let's just say they've got $7.7 million of assets and they needed to go get a $60,000 loan. Would you underwrite that loan? And that's right now that $60,000.

dollar loan is equivalent to their dividend liability annually that MSDR has the answer is yes you underwrite that loan it's a great risk okay let's just say the assets fall in half to three and a half million and somebody needs a $60,000 loan would you underwrite that risk the answer is absolutely I would underwrite that risk and that's what that's what happens in the capital markets to just a larger degree the scale is just significantly larger so that That's a good way to kind of wrap your head around it a little bit. All right. I want to open it up to both Joey and Ahmed as well to either comment or ask questions of you since we've got you in the room.

So either of you, do you have thoughts here, questions in and around this? Yeah. Jeff, I don't know anything about what you just talked about for like 10 minutes there. But I don't know if you saw Cam Little hit a 70-yard field goal. Do you think he could kick a 70-yard field goal? Absolutely not, but I have a 74-yard punt. There was a big 80-yarder last week, too. Nice. Okay, good to know.

Okay, on the subject of MSTR, since I'm getting a devil's advocate tag tonight, you know, you mentioned that money managers often are away from their desk at the beach or doing something more fun than, you know, reviewing their equity positions every day at 6am. The sort of counter to that would be, you know, it's not MSTR going down and everything else kind of stagnating. It's actually S&P at all-time highs and everything else being bought except MSTR. What would you say to that point? Yeah, that's a, that is a good point.

I mean, the stocks are at all time highs. There is energy coming into the market. There's a, there's a lot of, that, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Do you want to go back to talking about the cake? Sorry. No, no, no. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

And it's, there's a lot of speculation in the market. And nothing's really, nothing's really changed, right? Interest rates haven't changed. Everybody's kind of frozen. So like the last like three or four months, there's nothing really changed. So I'm not, I'm not concerned about that. And I don't think that's like as big of a factor.

Like there's everything's pushing forward. And I think there are still people on the sidelines waiting to understand like what's going to happen in the market. So honestly, I do think the second half of 2025 is going to be a bit more volatile everywhere. And like, yeah, S&P is at all time eyes. but it's probably going to pop significantly higher as there's a little bit more certainty on what the market looks like, what the market structure looks like in the future. Everybody's paused right now on like interest rates, what's going on with tariffs.

And then eventually we get into 26. We're going to start seeing conversations about midterm elections and things like that. There's going to be a lot of rumbling there. So I personally, stocks are at all time, S&P's at all time highs, but it's not, you know, drastically different from like a month ago. Where do you come down on something like the S&P inclusion? I don't know what the behavior of equities typically looks like when there's a market expectation that the S&P inclusion is coming soon.

I actually don't know that there's a trad-fine market expectation that's coming soon. I think in Bitcoin, we think it should happen. But I'd be curious your thoughts on that, too. That seems to be the other lever that's kind of in play. Yeah, I've been researching this for like 24 months now. So I've been following strategies, potential includes into the S&P 500 for 365 trading days in a row as of today. So this is this is something that I've been very interested in. And historically, if you go look at any analysis of when companies get included in the S&P 500,

typically when the companies do get included, the stock goes the other way. The stock goes down. But it's really good to look at the analysis beforehand, like what's happening before inclusion? Because the market knows all data at all times. So the question becomes, is it getting front run? How is it getting front run? Who's front running it? And what's the incentive of holding the equity into the future? So if you look at companies like Lulu Lemon, Lulu Lemon was added to the S&P 500 just recently. And it was front run. You go look at the stock beforehand. And then it was announced that they're added to the S&P 500. I think there was like a little bit of pop and then the stock declined.

In my opinion, what happened was the people that were holding Lulu Lemon were holding it, anticipating this, and then sold knowing that it was going to happen and rotated to other opportunity cost of capital. Now, because why would you hold Lulu Lemon? Like, Lulu Lemon is not going to the top of the publicly traded leaderboard. Now, there are situations where you look at other companies that are incredibly strong going to the S&P 500 and the mechanics of what's happened in the past. is a little bit different. So you look back at Tesla. And when Tesla was added to the SMP 500, they were added at a huge market cap, very similar to what strategy is looking at potentially here, about a $300 billion market cap. Now, if you go back and look at their historical earnings leading up to it, you can kind of see that there was a trend in time where it started to look like

Tesla was going to hit the final requirement to be included in the SP500. And the stock started to get front run. So it went from $100 billion. to $300 or $400 billion before it was announced that it was going to be included in the S&P 500, then it went from $400,500 billion up to a trillion and a very short time horizon. And what's happening there, in my opinion, is that people want, it didn't matter about S&P inclusion. People wanted to hold it forever. Tesla's got an opportunity to be, you know, one of the top seven publicly traded companies, probably for a very long time.

There is no incentive to sell your stock to the passive inflows that are coming in the door. And I think that's something very similar to what's happening here with strategy. Because their balance sheet is designed and powered by Bitcoin, as the price of Bitcoin rises, they get a higher and larger participation in the market cap weighted index funds perpetually. And so there is less incentive to offload your stock into passive index flows into the future. Now, will they get included? That's a great question. I've been talking about this for a very long time.

This is the most controversial topic of the year. And I think that the committee that has to deal with this is going to have a hard time excluding them with the exception of like volatility. But if you think about the incentives, the incentives are also aligned. Because who wants strategy included in the S&P 500? Maybe BlackRock, right? Because if the S&P 500 includes MSTO, and MSDR continues to perform well, BlackRock and all the companies that offer those S&P 500 index ETFs are going to generate fees off of those.

If that index starts to underperform other indices, people move capital, and we've already seen that happen, people are moving from the S&P 500 and a lot of capital flowing to the NASDAQ 100 because it's a little bit more systematic and less committee-based. And that's, that landscape is evolving. Okay, one more question, then I'll pass to the doctor. I agree with you that there's going to be rotation of capital. And I think just a general shift in thinking from traditional financial people and market participants from, I don't understand Bitcoin, I can't invest in it to I'm underperforming Bitcoin. I have to invest in it. And MSTR is a vehicle for that. I think

there's real truth there. I'm glad you sort of kind of touched on it a little bit. On the earnings per share thing, you mentioned the Lulu, you mentioned the Tesla. I mean, you kind of see that same indicator now with the fair accounting for Bitcoin and you mentioned that, you know, they're going to their market cap is going to jump significantly as that continues to rip. I mean, I don't listen to every true north, but it's a lot of, but yeah, but I'm curious, you know, what was the response like in the community? Was it one of disappointment? You had that big EPS blow out and no movement, right? It's sort of a downward move. Do you view that as a sell the news? Would you view that as a natural reaction? Like what was the community

thought? And maybe what do you think about it? it. Yeah, there was a lot of hope for repricing. And there wasn't necessarily repricing. It kind of went the opposite way. So that that was an interesting perspective. Looking forward into the future, I think this becomes one of those undeniable things that's hard to, I think it's going to become undeniable in the future as this moves forward. They just posted a $32 billion or $32 earning per share. 45 days through Q3. They're, you know, they're sitting on a $23 or $24 earnings per share. And when you start to look at everything else in the market and you start to compare these

things, it becomes pretty glaringly obvious very quickly that a lot of the other equity in the in the existing marketplace is in my opinion mispriced significantly over extended relative to a company with an incredibly strong balance sheet. And a Bitcoin treasury strategy and strategy are vastly misunderstood. And I think there's a lot of education and re-evaluation about how to value these companies. It needs to happen in the marketplace. So, I mean, that's something that I'm talking about very consistently. You've got a, the entire equity market right now is priced on expectation of future cash flows,

which to me is a measure of financial strength. And you have this other valuation mechanism, which is looking at a balance sheet. So like Berkshire Hathaway or insurance companies or banks. And the really unique part about strategies, balance sheet valuation, is that they're sitting on an asset that's outperforming everything else in the market. And they're accumulating it at a faster rate than anybody else is accumulating it at any other pace in the market. So should you use a bank or a Berkshire Hathaway valuation mechanism to value the company?

probably not because it's a different asset and a different structure and you compare it to the other things in the market and it looks the the relative risk return tradeoff looks significantly different and i think there's a a large portion of equities in the s mp 500 493 of them are subject to a i disruption and there's likely going to be a significant turnover in those companies in the s mp 500 as these bitcoin treasury companies strong balance sheet companies crypto-back companies, crypto-exchanges, AI companies come into the fray and succeed and outpace some of these other companies. All right.

Let's kick it over to Ahmad. I'm curious. You got thoughts, questions? Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert in this. But what does Michael Saylor say when he's asked about the price? Usually talks about Bitcoin. He doesn't talk about outperforming. I mean, he talks about outperforming.

He'll point to all the statistics. He's like, well, look at my stock over this horizon. That's outperformed everything else in the market. And look at it over this horizon. It's outperformed everything else in the market. Look at how much capital we've raised. Look at the, these new instruments. A lot of the focus recently has been on these new instruments, which if you look

at the new instruments, the performance is outstanding. They've outperformed every other fixed income instrument in the entire market, every other preferred equity instrument in the entire market. They're incredibly more liquid. They're over collateralized. they are they are whooping ass on every other fixed income instrument in the entire market. And they definitely point to that. If you go back and you look at the equity on the horizon from when they started buying Bitcoin,

also whooping ass on everything else in the market. So that's that's what heat points do, which I think is fair. And there's a reason. There's a reason you see other companies emulating this is because the other companies emulating this are looking to raise capital and put more capital. into their coffers so they can whip ass on all these other companies in the market. Jeff, okay, well, last question, Ben, I don't want to hold you up. But I mean, you're a Bitcoin guy.

You're an MSTR guy. You're the VP of Bitcoin buying and strategy at. My eyes used to be a lot better. Sorry, I can't read that. What do you think outperforms, you know, long term? Is it MSTR or Bitcoin? And I guess if the answer is Bitcoin, then, you know, on what time horizon are you planning to sell your micro strategy stock or your, or your, or your, or your, you're, you're,

you know, sort of adjacent preferreds or debt structured vehicles. Yeah, I don't plan on selling my strategy stock ever. I plan on holding that like for the rest of my life, really. Is it just because it's a different, you know, a different bucket? Like I mean, in the States, you guys probably have these sort of assigned vehicles too, right? Like in Canada, we have tax efficient equity opportunities that I think a lot of Bitcoiners don't take advantage of incorrectly in my view, though my peers would disagree with that. So is it just because there are different buckets you're holding one over the other or because you think MSTR is going to outperform Bitcoin long term?

It's a little bit of both. It's a different bucket. It's an alternative exposure, but I think the world is just getting more digital in general. So I think there's a few things at play, personally, from my opinion. One, all equities trade at a premium to their net asset value. So you go look at any of these companies. I think they're all going to continue to outperform. Yeah. And all stocks are some expectation of future performance. So with that in mind, I do personally believe that strategy will trade at a higher multiple and will continue to outperform Bitcoin into the future. Wow.

One of the reasons being is you look at all the value on the planet right now. Okay, there's 21 million Bitcoin, but there's millions and millions and millions of Bitcoin worth of value. Even if the world were fully denominated in Bitcoin and Bitcoin was the measuring stick for everything, like not every house in the world is going to be for sale at the same time. So there's going to be more than 21 million. Bitcoin worth of value in the equity market, in the housing market and all these other different marketplaces because there's reasons for holding them some sort of expectation for the future

or store of value or whatever that may be. So it's a fun thought experiment, but I'm going to be holding MSTR for a long time. Also, I can leverage against it far easier right now in any portfolio than I can with Bitcoin. Yes, sir. If I've got fully sovereign Bitcoin, I want it to be fully sovereign. I don't want to put it on exchange so I can go lever against it. I see Bitcoin as my complete savings mechanism. I don't want to do anything with it.

And I want these other vehicles to do other things with. Chat absolutely lit up here with the commentary. Amad, you go ahead. I saw a hand. Is it possible that people are just buying Bitcoin instead of buying micro strategy? Yeah, absolutely. I think it is. I think it is happening.

There's two things in my mind. There's, and honestly, it doesn't matter. Bitcoiners are buying Bitcoin because they like Bitcoin. They're super focused in it. The traditional financial world, just the way the architecture of the market is designed, there is passive flows coming into index funds every day. And it's going to continue into the future. You're not going to break that architecture.

That architecture has been in place for a very long time. and it is not going to change. So what's going to continue happening is people are going to continue buying micro strategy strategy into the future perpetually and not even know it. Anybody that buys the QQQ index, they're buying micro strategy. They don't even know it. So what are your incentives? Well, I want to front run all those people, right?

So I think about them just fundamentally differently. Bitcoiners are buying Bitcoin and a lot of people are a lot of Bitcoiners that had bought MSTR and are frustrated with the performance are selling to go buy Bitcoin, which is fine. Like if you don't feel comfortable with it, like it's it is what it is. But they are just fundamentally different products. Interesting. Well, I think I'm going to I'm going to put a pin in this topic for now because. That was great.

You really held your own there against you know. I'm new. You know, I'm not. Nothing he hasn't been. barraged one, not questions he's not been barraged with already, I'm sure, I'm sure. But nonetheless, we are going to do a rotation here. We're going to take a quick break. But on the other side of it, we're going to find out, one, why Dr. Amuse here is so bullish

and hear all about his topic. And furthermore, later in the episode, myself and Joey are going to have a back and forth about this crazy Google. Back and forth. Oh, my God. Yeah. Sure. We're going to have a little bit of a discussion around this Google stuff, which, by the way, while we've been on here, there's actually an update to that story.

So we'll get to that when we get to it. So we're going to give a quick sponsor shout out for about a minute here. And on the other side of it also, make sure everybody that's watching, drop a like and also get out your lightning wallets because we'll give away a few sats when we get back. So we will see you in just a second. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the US. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC sessions to sign up today.

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But with that, we're going to dive into our next reason for being bullish. Dr. Amuse, I'm going to toss it over to you. Same question everybody gets. But why are you bullish? What's top of mind? Yeah, I mean, so you could be bullish for something exciting in Bitcoin. coin, you could also be bullish by just seeing how shitty Fiat is. And, you know, this week in the hospital, it just hit me that living in a Fiat world,

you're kind of lying to yourself that you are doing something productive, even though everything you're doing is just serving the money printer. So this lying to yourself on a much, much deeper level, you are just in conflict with your own self. And it's it's kind of dark for people who are still stuck there. But it's also, it might be hopeful that, you know, there's a lot of people that say that we're going to, Bitcoin is going to take over because, you know, number go up technology. But it might also be that, you know, just Fiat is just, the Fiat world is going to get so disgusting that people are going to need an alternative. So I wonder what your guys' thoughts on that are.

I mean, I think it's already getting pretty disgusting out there in terms of, I mean, it's, I'm going to, I'm going to kind of talk about my experiences. You know, I've been, I just got home yesterday from Balticani Badger in, in Riga. So, you know, hanging out with a bunch of bitcoinsers. And then, of course, I've got my, my normie friends. I've got, you know, pre-Bitcoin friends. And I'd say just the general demeanor. And this is nothing that we haven't kind of discussed before. But the general demeanor of my average friends versus my Bitcoin of friends

is one of like absolute nihilism versus. hope for the future. And so I see it play out and how people think about, you know, where their life is headed, where society in general is headed, all of those things. And while while my, you know, non-Bitcoin friends tend to be happy when, you know, like we elect Mark Carney, as our prime minister, you know, the economic advisor for Justin Trudeau and think that this yet again will solve their problems somehow. It's almost like they hate the result of the very thing that they're helping prop up. Whereas Bitcoiners, I find they look out at everything that's kind of happening in society and just the, economic situation and and again just the way that society kind of leeches away people's will

to go on uh but in in a hopeful way like you know this is bad but the solution is here and people can grab hold of it if they choose to and i say just in general um it it extends out to more than just your own kind of economic welfare i've seen a lot of lot of bitcoins, especially as of late, start paying more attention to their health as well. And there's been a number of people either publicly or just kind of low key to themselves that I've had discussions with is, you know, they've gotten more comfortable economically and then they've shifted their attention to, well, I can't benefit from my better economic position if I'm dead. And so then they start focusing on, okay, well, I'm going to start eating better.

I'm going to start actually taking care of myself and exercising and staying away from garbage food or, you know, getting a sick pair of blue blockers, you know, all of those things. They're being more conscientious about it. So, you know, to what Joey said too, like, I think Fiat, Fiat, Life just gets so nihilistic that people exit it. I think that's a possibility. So I don't know. Do you guys want to chime in here? Sure.

I mean, I'm preaching to the converted here, but does anyone really look, even if you're not a Bitcoiner, does anyone really look at their life and think it's better than it was in the 90s? Like I'm an 87. I think Ben, you're around my age. Jeff, you look around my age. Ahmad, maybe our age a little bit older, I don't know, but like, no one, does anyone really think that life now for a kid who's like 13 is better in the year of our Lord 2025 than it was in

1996? You used to go to McDonald's and get a proper size hamburger, proper size fries. It wasn't a shitty Korean widget toy in the Happy Meal. It was a fucking 1996 Athens Olympics hat. Okay. You remember that? Like, these times. are gone. They're not coming back. And I say this to my wife all the time, and I'm sure you guys

do as well. When you think about, you know, the sort of gap that's emerging between you as a bick-coiner, whether you have a big stack of bitcoin or not, doesn't even matter, is clear as day because your time preference has changed. The way you think about your relationships has changed. Ben, like you said, and doc, you're in the same boat. The way you think about your health has change. Not that you're unhealthy, Jeff. I'm sure you think this way too. Sorry, I left you out there. That wasn't nice. We're all thinking about it. And, you know, when I think about my own sort of story, like, I was way more reckless with my money, with my time, with my relationships as a, you know, 20-year-old, 25-year-old even, than I am now. And while I think that's a sign of sort of natural

maturity, what I would also say is you've changed your view of value. Not only the value you put on, you know, steaks and veggies at the store. How about the value you put on your stuff? I know now all the time I've spent researching stuff and learning stuff. And when I talk to people about things that interest me or interest them, I want that time to be valuable to me at the end of the day. When I talk to my friends about their family or their interests or what they've been up to, I want that time to be valuable to me and to them at the end of the day. And if I'm not the best version of myself, then I'm not valuing their time.

And if I'm talking to people who don't care about their own outcomes, then I'm not valuing my time. And so if you start thinking this way, the, the, just, change in the way that your life looks compared to your friends who are, you know, hammering a tall boy every night to unwind or skipping the gym because they have a cramp or whatever. Like that that gap compounds, okay, over time. And you can maybe get over those hurdles in your 20s, but I will tell you at nearly 38. And I think Ben, maybe you just turned, do you just turn 40?

Do I have that right? Yeah, I just hit the. So like, I mean, you're pretty much cooked. But I mean, at 38, it's, it's. it's harder and harder to get over those compounding mistakes and compounding, you know, errors in the way you manage your time and manage your own value. And Bitcoin helps with that. There's no doubt.

Yeah. I do want to also just kind of, again, quickly. First off, actually, everybody in the room and watching right now, happy new all-time high. We're at like 1.23.5. Hey. Congrats. But nonetheless, I did want to, to kind of push back on your, those times aren't coming back. I'm going to say that those times aren't coming back for everyone, but there's going to be a subset of people where those times are already back.

I was sitting about two days ago in a beautiful kind of European town square. with Medex, Eric Yakes, and Efrat Fennigson. And we're all sitting there, munching on a steak and just like looking out of the beautiful scenery.

And we just came from like a gym workout and a cold plunge and a sauna and all that. We're just kind of sitting back. And we're talking about pitching Bitcoin and how our, approaches have changed and or that we don't really pitch it to new people anymore. We just kind of, if they want to ask, they can come to us. And and made X was like, he's like, fuck man.

The pitch for me now is just like there. I don't know what to tell you. We're kind of going back and forth talking about how we don't pitch it. And then we just all kind of sat back quietly, you know, taking another bite of steak in this beautiful town square and then Maynex leans forward. And he's like, but aren't you guys worried about the volatility? Having the time of our lives. So point being, those times are coming back as people are able to get past, you know,

whatever their blockers are with, you know, being able to just kind of conservatively put away and save in a money that nobody can print. So that's, that's why I'm at. I'll toss it to Jeff and get his thoughts as well. Yeah, I mean, this stuff has totally fundamentally changed my life. I've experienced some Fiat bad things just in the last couple of days. Maybe I'll explain them. But maybe like a quick story, a little background.

I grew up lower middle class, like relatively poor. And I wanted to, I like needed to learn about finance because I was like, I'm never going to be in this situation ever again. So I went to college, got a business and economics degree. I took every finance class I could possibly take. I got a job working in finance in Seattle, worked in it for a decade, and got married, got a wife, got a house, and working in Seattle. And I just kept working harder and harder and harder. My wife was also working harder and harder and harder.

And we like saw zero probability of like having the safety to have a family. and that was like super depressing and we're like we're just like okay we're not having kids because I don't want to take on financial bankruptcy risk to have a kid in this ecosystem and this totally sucks and then you know all that shifted when I found Bitcoin so and now Bitcoin and strategy and you know thinking about these things differently and kind of adopting a Bitcoin treasury strategy personally for myself and impressing it when I thought I was right. And now that like is fundamentally changed my life and I'm like in a position where I can think about potentially having a family and the future of what that looks like that just didn't

exist prior to this. And I'm incredibly thankful. I mean, it's added like hope to my life that I never had before. And I feel like despite the volatility, I feel like. stronger and healthier and more safe than I've ever felt. And it's just crazy. And even just yesterday, I had to drive up to Seattle.

We had our house broken into and our air conditioner stolen. And like these people were like these meth addicts were like smoking cigarettes in our bathtub and like, all this shit. And I'm just like, oh my God, this is so fiat. Like I can't, I can't deal with this.

This is crazy. And then you look at like the value of these homes. I'm like, how like I just, none of this makes any sense. And I need to get out of this as soon as possible. And it's just, I see it like, you have these Fiat lenses and you can see it everywhere all around you.

And it's been nice to exit that system and have a lot more hope in my life. So, yeah, it's crazy. Well, how big was the air conditioner? Like, meth heads are not that strong. It was a window air conditioner. It's hard for me to believe that a couple of guys with, like, you know, declining bone density and no VO2 max are getting that air conditioner out and then having a cigarette after they're talking yeah just like taking the shower and you know using the using the bed that's in there

and yeah no it's it's all crazy man this is the second time we had our house broken into too too so it was just well Seattle's a you know Seattle Washington i take it right yeah it's uh you know a paradise for a number of we don't have to get into that but yeah it's like it's gorgeous but you you got the issues yeah yeah did they send uh Seattle at the at the at the at the at the the point in the decline of the empire where instead of sending police to robberies, they send a mental health professional? Are you there yet? Because I know we're getting there over here. I drove 10 hours in a car yesterday to go there and back. And I called the police before I left. And I said, hey, somebody broke into our house. Our neighbor called us like, hey, like,

your windows open, the gates open. Like, you should go check. And we're like, oh, my God, we have squatters in our house. We're going to, you know, like our brains just go instant anxiety. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we called the cops and they're like, okay, we'll send somebody over. And we're like, okay, they're probably not going to send anybody over. So we drove there and back that spent 10 hours in the car. And by time we walked in the front door, the cops called us like, hey, we got here. And it's just like, you guys are useless.

Those tax dollars that hard at work, my friends. Amazing. A lot of Fiat problems in my life recently. Well, it is messed up, right? Like, even, you know, I was talking to Amad about this on. our show the other night, just like the sort of decline in the quality of health care. You get in Canada. Oh my God. I mean, we pay, I'm paying a lot of money for health care in this country. And I popped a wheel on my person last week. I tore my ACL on my right knee. And I knew I did it

because I did it on my other knee like 15 years ago. And so I went to my doctor. I got the MRI referral and I said like, I'm just going to take this to Buffalo. I'm not going to wait for the MRI. So I just out of curiosity. Like how long? How long? with this take. He goes, because it's not, because he couldn't, he couldn't confirm with the test they usually do. I don't know what it's called, the like pivot test or your knee, that it was torn. He said, you know, we'd put you on like the sort of middle priority. It would take six months. I went to Buffalo for the MRI. It cost me $800. I drove for an hour. My dad came with me. We stopped for lunch and St. Catharines. It was nice. And I walked out of there after like 15 minutes

in a brand new MRI machine with the results of the MRI. And like, you know, in Canada, pay, God, like an unseen but also ungodly amount of money for many people into this system. And unless you show up in an ambulance at an ER with an acute, identifiable problem, the likelihood that you're seen by a professional that's going to be competent enough to treat you or not burnt out or able to perform the sort of diagnostics that really need to be done in a lot of cases, you're just not getting your money's worth to put it like plainly. And this is, this is so obviously a problem with the currency and with the money and with the incentives. You know, there's an unwillingness to address it. I know I brought up the mental health thing,

you know, a second ago, but, you know, Toronto police, they refuse to give, the city refuses to give their police service a budget increase every year. It's a fight in the media. The media wants nothing to do with increasing the police budget. There's people naked, doing crap, harassing women on the subways in Toronto. And the mayor the other day took a break from dancing at summer festivals in a fucking bikini to make an announcement on a subway platform that now there's going to be health care professionals on the subway to make sure that that naked crack user is not going to experience mental health crisis on the subway.

There's going to be someone there to talk them through it. As if that's what anybody wants. As if that's what anybody needs. and as if that's the actual problem we're trying to solve. And there's an unwillingness from the Fiat world to identify themselves as the parasitic problem. It's always going to be like that. And in Bitcoin, you know, to your point about Maidex is, you know, I don't even pitch people anymore. I just don't care anymore about that stuff.

I don't engage with people on the topic. I just have the resources now, thanks to Bitcoin, to say, I'm not, you know, I'm not riding the subway. I'm not waiting for the MRI. I'm not going to participate in this. You know, I'm going to go somewhere where my time is valued and I can use the value that I've accrued to do something for me, for my family, for whoever. And it's always going to be like that for Bitcoiners. And like I said, that gap is going to be so much more obvious in a few years. We're making all-time highs here.

I mean, do you think it's going to be less obvious at 500K who the Bitcoin, you know, holders are or were? I think if you haven't started holding it, you ought to. because at some point you will be affected by the inability of Fiat authorities to diagnose a problem and to solve it. And you don't want it to be at a time where your life is on the line or your life of loved one is on the line. Or there's a vagrant smoking a cigarette in your bathtub. Like you don't want this to be the time that you find out. Yeah. I would, and I'll maybe toss this over to Dr. Amuse here as well.

but my general thought in and around, you know, kind of exiting that and the, the very clear differentiation of quality of life that's going to start to present itself. I think that, as you said, Bitcoiners will just get to the point where they're like, I'm not going to participate here. I'm just going to go out and I'm going to find somebody who's good at what they do. I think that in general, bitcoinsers or the people that are good at what they do and actually create quality things and, you know, provide quality services, I think those people become Bitcoiners. And I think Bitcoiners become, you know, are forced to become really good at certain things because they'll recognize that it's, it's harder to separate a Bitcoiner in their stats unless you're offering something that's worth it. and and and and i i think there's going to come a time where everybody's like why why are why is this one subset of people ultra rich ultra healthy and has all the best shit that doesn't break why is this happening and i feel like that's that's what's you know like again we're doing our

little circular market here in calgary and and people are you know like the farmers the the cattle farmers, the people creating like quality things are are migrating to that. You know, we've got dentists and we've got people that personal trainers and stuff like that. And they, they're, I'm starting to notice like a quality of paying attention to one's craft that is present in those people. And I think we'll see more of that. My worry is that the people that go the opposite route as so often do, we'll have the knee-jerk reaction that doesn't look for second and third-order effects. They just see, you have stuff. I do not. You did this to me. It's just like the same people that go to the grocery store, groceries are more expensive and they blame the

grocer. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. But Dr. Amuse, I'm curious if, I mean, you are an example of somebody that, you know, is orange-pilled, understanding what's going on, and also understanding kind of the underlying issues in your realm, which is medicine, how do you, how do you see your particular field of expertise changing for those that recognize what's going on versus those that don't? Yeah, I think, I mean, this, the medicine, as we know it right now, needs to collapse. There's no way we can fix this system. It's already too broken to be fixed. And I think what's going to happen is people are just going to start creating an alternative system on the side, a more peer-to-peer, less centralized system where you're working with your doctor directly,

you're working with the guy who runs the MRI machine directly. And that's just going to grow more and more on the side and until nobody is going to the Fiat medical field. And I think that's our way out. Yeah, yeah, I would echo it. It's interesting, right? Like, Dr. Amuse is basically describing what we have in Canada now. And it's funny. You know, when I talk to my peers up here in the 51st, I hear the same thing all the time that they don't want two-tier health care, two-tier medicine, two-tier whatever.

And I say to them, like, you know, the thing about the two-tier system is that if you don't think it's two-tier already, you're in the bottom tier. And you're going to find that more and more people start to enter that tier. And then it's going to be hard for you to get out of it because things are going to be so bad. But I think Amad is right. Why isn't there a guy with an MRI machine in Toronto taking appointments? New MRI machines. I think the last time I did this to my knee was like, like I said, 15 years ago,

I must have spent 40 minutes in that buzzing tube. It's like a dubstep fever dream. And then I go to Buffalo. And like I said, it's 15 minutes. And a machine looks brand new. Like I could put it in my washer. my wife wouldn't be upset about the aesthetic. And it's just like so obvious there's two tiers.

But our leaders in the places where things are failing the most obviously tell you not to believe your eyes and ears, right? Is that saying the empire's biggest lie was telling you not to believe what you see or something like that. And in Canada, it's bad. It's really bad. And people, I think, just don't, they don't understand quite, you know, how bad it is because they don't have the resources to see, you know, the greener grassland on the side of the hill.

I had a discussion with a friend. I'm going to say about six, somewhere between six and 12 months ago, but we were discussing, you know, oh, we wish that, like, in Canada for important things you could, you had the option of just paying, you know, like my father-in-law has major problems with this back right now to the point where they're like, you shouldn't do too many physical activities because you may become a, paraplegic. Like that's, that's how bad it is. The problems with his legs at times and it's not good. It's not ideal. And they told them like, just like try not to do things. And, and he's like waiting for this appointment. He's already been waiting for an appointment just to figure out what's going on for over a year. Ben, he's paid his whole life for that appointment. And he's not getting it. And it's still, and there's, it's still probably months, if not a year out.

And then when he gets in and he finds out what's wrong, it'll probably be another year before they even do a thing about it. And so I'm talking to my friend about this. And I'm like, I wish there was just like within Canada, just private option. What we'll probably end up doing is, you know, if it's bad enough, we'll just because Bitcoin has given us the opportunity to, we'll just take them somewhere else and just get it done.

Yeah. Yeah. And so then the friend was like, well, no, we can't, we can't have a private option because what will happen is all of the good doctors will go over to the private and then all the crappy doctors will be part of the public option and everybody will get crappy health care. I'm like, okay, let's say, let's say that's how it plays out. Doesn't that, first of all, it's already doing a shit job to the point where my father-in-law's choice to basically stop doing things. at all in your late 60s or risk being paralyzed and just hang out for the next three years until we maybe do something about it. Or if that was the case that he had the option within Canada, go pay for it. And would that not then take some of the pressure off of the public system because the people that are willing to pay will go over there? How could it be worse than what it is

right now? How could it be worse than what we currently have? the funny thing about it was later on, different part of the conversation. I was getting a lot of flight anxiety last year. And so I mentioned that I had gone in and said, what can I do about this? Like, I don't know how to grapple with it. And they were like, well, it's short term. Like, if you wanted to, you could have like some out of end to kind of just like make you not freak out and like sleepy on a flight instead. They're like, you can do that.

but realistically, you know, you need to actually deal with it, maybe sit down with somebody, like, just grab, like actually talk through it and everything. They're like, if you want to do that, we could probably get you in next year. When do you fly? It's like, are you? And so then the friend said, oh, just, just go pay for it.

Like, I had to do that for, for a reason. I won't like specify, but like they were like, I had to go and, and like, get some. get some help with something. And I paid and I was in like a day later. And it was, thank God. Because I, so I'm like, hold on. So you just said that this couldn't possibly work for major surgeries.

But you just said it literally saved you when you needed some mental health help. Yeah. The big problem you have is that the flights you're taking here too long to just have like two graballs and pass out. You don't even need a prescription for those. And I don't think there's any long term side effects. I don't think that people, they don't step back and realize, like, they're holding to competing thoughts. Well, the other thing, too, like, you're describing there, all the shit doctors are going to work on the free system. All the shit doctors are already working on the free system.

Look at the fucking outcomes in Canada. I just saw a story, some kid in not far from me, I think, or maybe, I don't know, there's been so many of these stories. Jeff and Ahmad, you guys may not keep up with this because in the 51st, there's stories in the papers every week about something of this nature, something in this vein. Some kid showed up at the hospital with a bad headache that was getting worse and just the hospital refused to test. They were giving him water, giving him pain meds, whatever. The kid ended up dying of a blood clot. He's in there for like seven hours. He's like 18 years old, 16 years old, something like that. And you see this all the time up here. Again, like Ben, in your father-in-law's case, you know, he's 60-something. He's paid into the system forever.

And, you know, now that he needs it. And by the way, you should, hope that you live long enough to need it because the alternative is not as pleasant, you're not going to get the help you need. And then what do you do? Your earning power has decreased in your 60s so significantly that you can't pick up a couple extra shifts at Walmart. Walmart won't even hire you as a greeter because you're not a temporary foreign worker. So you can't even put this smiley face sticker on a kid coming in there for a few bucks

an hour to get your back consult. Then when you get to back consult, like you mentioned, the solution is not. And I'm odd, you'll agree with this too. The solution is not, here's some exercises to strengthen that sort of structure and help you get back on your feet. So you can do things that, you know, a 60-year-old, albeit mobility limited, can do again. The solution is just lie on your back until we get to you. Yeah.

And I just wanted to point out this. This was from earlier this year, beginning of beginning of the year. More than 74,000 Canadians have died on healthcare wait lists since 2018. And in 2023, 24 alone, 15.5,000 Canadians died alone before receiving various surgeries or diagnostic scans. The true number is likely double. Minimum. How many people don't have family doctors here? Like, it's a super high number, right?

I don't know. I mean, this is not Bitcoin related, obviously, but it is a sensitive subject. I can tell for you, Ben, it is for me, too. And I think a lot of people don't realize that that number compounds when you ask, stuff like addictions, you know, addicts who can't get help, when you add stuff like kids who can't get help, when you add stuff like parents who don't know how to handle a pregnancy, when you add stuff like, you know, there's any number of edge cases that when all stuck together don't no longer represent an edge case some of people. It's a large chunk of people who are not

getting help and many are dying or winding up in situations where they end up costing the system more because the problem worsens or whatever. I mean, this is not hard to figure out. You don't need to call KPMG to tell you that you shouldn't have a 16-hour waiting room lineup because those conditions cost more as they get worse. Comment over the day, by the way. What's the say there? Robert. Just get on the made wait list. Yeah.

Let's do it. The medically assisted dying wait list and Gulag says in Canada, the suicide hotline calls you. Wow. But it's so. Okay, let's get on this wallet thing. We're going to go toe to toe to me. Before we start, I just want to, I want to tell you that I see your posting thirst traps online. I want you know that that's my corner, number one.

And number two, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously unless I see you rep in 225 on the squat bar. It should be the bench bar, but I will do the squat bar because I think that you should have to do 225 before your opinions are taken with the real seriousness. I'm close. I'm close. I'm not quite at the 225. All right.

Well, let's slide. Okay. Well, we'll see. When I get that, I will, I'll shoot you the video. Okay. I'll thread it together with a couple more straps. We are, we're going to attack that we're going to get on this, this Google Wallet ban, like, licensing thing. We're going to do a quick sponsor shout out for a sec.

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creating hands down the best and most secure hardware when it comes to securing your Bitcoin. The cold card Q is an absolute powerhouse and my daily driver, and it's ideal for newcomers and advanced users alike. The tab signer gives you a low-cost, user-friendly option for those just getting started or for convenience when traveling. You can head to coincite.com and use code BTC sessions for discounts, or simply scan the QR code on the screen to get started right away. All right, we're back in, and I am going to give you guys a little rundown of what the hell is going on here.

So this is an article over on the rage.com, and the article is entitled Google Play Store bans wallets that don't have a banking license. So the long and the short of it is that Google just updated or introduced a policy that requires any software wallet developer to obtain a license before publishing cryptocurrency wallet apps to the Google Play Store, quote, to ensure a safe and compliant ecosystem for users. It targets 15 jurisdictions, including the EU and the United States, laying out which regulations Google Play Store expects software wallet developers to comply with. The actual policy is here, and it says it looks to encompass both exchanges.

and software wall. So it says Google Play has established specific guidelines for the publication of cryptocurrency exchanges and software wallets. And then when you go down by region, for instance, Canada, the developer must register with FinTrack as a money service business.

If you go down to the UK, the developer must register with the financial conduct authority in the US. The developer must be either registered with FinCEN as a money service business and within with a state as a money transmitter or a federal or state chartered bank entity and an EU must be authorized as a crypto asset service provider under the markets in crypto assets regulation by a relevant national competent authority any other local legal requirements including any national level restrictions or requirements beyond

Micah must also be complied with. They've got some nuance around France and Germany as to when that will be required. So the update here, this is interesting. So this is the rage posting the article. News from Google, which it does have the golden checkmark here. I was trying to figure out if it was a legitimate account, apparently verified because it's an affiliate of Google and again has the fancy checkmark. But it says, thanks for flagging this non-custodial wallet.

are not in the scope of Google plays, cryptocurrency exchanges and software wallets policy. We are updating the help center to make this clear. So it would appear that for the time being, everybody's freaking out on X and everything, rightfully so, rightfully so, I will say. But it would appear that for right now, for a little bit,

we may be in the clear. but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that we shouldn't stay vigilant and also figure out what the hell would you do in a situation where this does happen. And I do think that eventually this will happen. So, Joey, I want to get your thoughts first. I want to get Jeff's thoughts and Dr. Amuse's thoughts

on just kind of the general idea of the possibility that we could have. self-custy Bitcoin wallets fall under regulations that require registration. Yeah, I think this is, it's going to happen for sure. I view this as a trial balloon. You know, that's the most generous interpretation I'll give it. You know, I have a couple of, I have a couple of beasts with the Bitcoiners and, you know, if I need to get something like this too, the people who think that this is going to be as simple

is like side-loading an APK or running something on your computer or compiling some code from Git that lets you put together a wallet like this. I would just point out a couple of things, okay? The Samurai and Tornado Cash rulings were both about one-e transmission. And so, you know, you have these wallets that have tried this in the past. And when the Leviathan decides that it wants to put you under its thumb, it will put you under its thumb. That's rule. number one about dealing with the Leviathan, okay? The second thing I would point out is that side loading an APK is not quite as simple as just going to FDroid or ZAP or whatever the, you know, the other options out there are and saying, yeah, I'm going to put this on my phone

and use it. You know, as less and less people use the services, it is much easier to identify those who are still on these platforms. And, you know, there's a lot of psychology behind the chilling effect. It doesn't take much in terms of a public, obvious, well-known person getting attacked by the state for their use of these license-less money transmission services to stop other people from using it. That's number two. I'll add a couple more things here. And then I'll just make another note about this particular case. Money transmission is exactly what these apps are doing by any definition. And as Bitcoin grows in price and market cap and as stuff like MSTR becomes more and more popular,

it's going to be hard to keep hiding. We're really fortunate during the COVID years, really fortunate during the 2010s to be sort of a laughing stock, right? We're the sort of butt end of the joke in a lot of places in economic circles, in tech circles, in equity circles and all sorts of other places. And we were under the radar for a long time. And we are no longer under the radar. In fact, we are like loud and proud. In a lot of cases, I think, too loud and proud about the progress we've made

in terms of the sort of dominance that we've put on display, especially over the last two or three years. But you can make the case that since inception, we've really destroyed all comers and shown no mercy, given no quarter, to anyone who has come in our path. You're no longer at the point now where you're fiddling on the margins with loopholes and laws and saying, well, it's not money transmission. It's just bits.

It's just ones and zeros. The thing that I think Bitcoiners get wrong at the worst times, because they don't get wrong all the time, but they get wrong at the worst times, is the government is a rational actor. They're a rational actor insofar as they're willing to protect their own interests. at any cost, whether it's children overseas or putting an app developer in jail. It's both those things and everything in between. And the government doesn't rule with an iron fist. It's actually worse than that. They change the definitions of laws. They get support from tech

giants. And by the time you realize what's happening, it's often too late. Now, on this particular story. I'll just note one thing that, you know, there's a, obviously a pullback here a little bit from YouTube. It's very hard for me, or from YouTube from Google, it's very hard for me to view this with anything but a skeptical lens. The language is very clear. In the original press release, they had exactly what you'd expect to see for a wallet in terms of licensing and KYC requirements, again, by any definition, United States, Canada, or otherwise. And I would also note that as a company, Google today announced that starting in August, they'll be doing AI age recognition on videos for all users who are participating in that platform.

And I would just ask you, Bitcoiner, do you think that the same company who's running AI age recognition to quote unquote protect children, obvious bullshit, is actually sorry for their error. What was it, a fucking typo? The table and everything else was a typo? Was that it? Was it a early draft that wasn't meant to go out? yet, do you really think that same company is going to allow on its platform these apps that make

you sovereign? And I'll just maybe one last point. Do you think the government in the United States has nothing to do with it at all? These things are arms of the government. There is no arms length. I don't think this is conspiratorial. I think it's obvious. It's obvious to anyone who participates in this environment. It's the same in Canada, the UK, everywhere. The clamps are coming down not only on Bitcoin, but on anything that allows you to have a private conversation at scale. Because private conversations are the enemy of the state in a way that they have never been before, thanks to technology like Bitcoin, 3D printing. It's easy to become difficult to corral now very quickly. And so the only way to do this is to smother it in the cradle.

And as someone said in the chat, Bitcoin is toothpaste that is out of the tube. But you'd be surprised how many people, to Ben's point, have no fucking idea how to send a transaction without a wallet. And I think this is going to come for Sparrow, too, at some point, by the way. Because by these definitions, again, if the state wants to persecute these companies and make examples of them, it'd be very easy to do. Craig Raw doesn't have the resources to fight the United States government, nor does he have the, you know, time or I would guess, I don't know the man.

But the sort of interest required to pursue a decades long or decade long case where the outcome is predetermined. They run you drive all the resources you've accumulated, Bitcoin, Fiat, or otherwise. It takes a toll on your relationships, takes a toll on your health. And, you know, show me the record of the United States government when fighting these things. I think the PGP case was a lesson that they learned the hard way. And they're not going to learn that lesson a second time, unfortunately. interesting i want i want to get uh comments from uh jeff and amod so i'll let you guys chime in and i've got a few things that i'll tag in after but jeff i'll go to you first yeah there's a lot

there and joey just like at the very beginning where you said you didn't know a lot of the words that i was saying a lot of the words you were saying there i didn't know as well i think that's um you know ultimately one of the challenges i think with the bitcoin and the ecosystem itself is that access to using these things takes a lot of education. It's difficult to get a large population to follow and be interested in doing these things. And one of the perspectives I have is that money itself is kind of genetic. Like what you know about money is kind of genetic in that it's what your parents knew about money and it's what their parents knew about money.

And in order to break out of that, it takes a lot of time, energy, effort. and there needs to be something that that's forcing you out of that. And I think that's something that's going to continue to be a hurdle is like getting a lot of energy behind these problems. And I know it's happening right now. Like energy is going to be getting behind these problems, but a lot of people don't know what these problems are. And even if they hold Bitcoin.

And that's, I think it's going to be hard to get people to wrap their heads around that. So just something to keep in mind out there. And I think that's where the importance of having these other, I guess, good actors in the space. And we can argue whether or not they're good actors or not. But these companies that are adopting Bitcoin as a Treasury Reserve asset is helpful for the ecosystem because it's going to continue to push more energy and provide opportunity for people that care deeply about these things to fight it. Because there's going to be capital behind it. Like these,

the people that hold these assets are going to be able to deploy capital and energy efficiently to continue to fight it. So I don't know. I think incentives are aligned really, really well. And I think Bitcoiners should like rejoice in how everybody's using it because it, like any capital that's coming into play here is helping give other, the entire Bitcoin ecosystem continued power to fight these things and continue to,

push in decentralization and separate communication, private communication forward as much as possible. Do you think that Sailor has a responsibility to galvanize people behind pushing back against something like this? What is his level of responsibility when a bit of legislation like this comes out? I'll level with you. You know, maybe you and Mike have a DM chat. I don't know. I did not get a panel on the MSTR earnings call. That's all I'll say. And I'm curious, you know, what the sort of thought, what your, what your thoughts are on what should he say or not say about rulings like this? The samurai and tornado cash rulings happened after MSTR adopted Bitcoin as a treasury asset. He was silent on both.

There's some, the generous term would be ambiguity with the language he uses about self-custody, medium of exchange, things of this nature. And obviously there's perceived or real conflict on the financial side regarding whether or not paper, Bitcoin, summer should, you know, like Pride Summer, turn into something that is all season long, all year long, all of a sudden, thanks to the government telling me that that should be that way. I really do think that he should say something, but what do you think he should or shouldn't say about it? Yeah, it's a tough question. At what point is there a level of responsibility for the outcome of this? Should, who should be saying things about it? I don't know. I think we do, obviously, but we are much less consequential and don't have the SEC breathing down

our neck every time we do a public appearance. So I don't know what his responsibility level should be or is and what he's allowed to say or what his C-suite is allowed to say. But in my head, a guy who talks about Bitcoin as the apex asset must have at least a rudimentary understanding of what makes it the apex asset and this cripples part of that ability set. And he doesn't say anything about it. And so to me, that's frustrating. I will grant that it's very early in this particular instance, but I expect that there's going to be radio silence. from the entire MSTR crew about this. Yeah, it becomes very difficult to talk about it quickly,

because anything that you do say is now public record. It's something like the game theory of speaking out on this specific circumstance isn't great. Like there's not a ton of benefit and pretty much only downsides. Just like politically, economically for the stock. for everything. So I understand the framework and perspective. Honestly, I personally need to get a little bit more educated on these problems and challenges to have a better, have a better perspective. Yeah. And I think that the concept of the creation of perfect money and it's working right now

and not like don't met don't mess with it i think is a a little bit of a i think that's carrying a lot of weight right now um i'm curious your thoughts on on even though google saying you know this this was a mistake it's not supposed to encapsulate uh non-custodial uh wallets there you know do you think that this is something that's coming for us eventually you know and and and what what do you think the response will be if it does? I mean, I don't know. I think maybe I have too simplistic view of this, but K-O-I-C, non-KYC,

I think we are still gonna destroy the central banks. And that's all that matters. Interesting, yeah. I mean, my worry is that I think in the absence of being able to, at least within small groups and communities, being able to self-custody and, and use Bitcoin freely, I worry that we get effectively a repeat of kind of, you know, oh, well, yeah, is Bitcoin better? Obviously, like, for preserving purchasing power, all those types of things. but do we just get, all right, Bitcoin's now backing the currency because nobody wants the fiat,

but then, you know, give it a generation and we get Nixon 2.0, right? We, oh, like, we backed the currencies again by, you know, for the new, for, you know, the, the gold 2.0 type deal. And then it just gets rug pulled again within a generation. I just don't see it as a win if that's all we get. Maybe the auditability helps prevent that because you don't get the situation we got with the U.S. where they were already debasing the gold back currency, and it took a few people kind of cluing into that and beginning to ask for their gold back.

But it would be pretty evident immediately if you digitally have. had dollars backed by Bitcoin that there would be debasement. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. What about like, you know, it's funny thinking about the 60102 thing. I think the 6102 thing is like, at least I did until like two hours ago, thought it was more or less like a, you know, nonsense kind of tuna can prepper type type scenario. But if you if you run this thought experiment, you don't have to run it that far.

You know, when self-custody Bitcoin becomes too difficult to use to be valuable to you, then there is, you know, good guy, government stepping in and going, don't worry about it. We'll pay you, you know, market value, USD for your Bitcoin, knowing that we're inflating the currency at 10% a year. And we'll take that off your hands. No problem. That's really, it does lend itself kind of to that theory. The other thing, you know, a couple of years ago I had Chris Irons quote the Raven on CBP. And one of the things he said, and he was a brand new Bitcoin at the time, one of the things he said was anything governments do now that inhibits or restricts or tries to contain the potency of Bitcoin will be viewed as a whimper, not a roar. Because everyone can see that the currency is dying.

And that it's the end of this sort of debt-based regime, these 40 and 80-year cycles colliding. I mean, whatever school of economics you want to follow, I think all of them have a theory for what's going on right now and none of them and on a positive note. But I'm so surprised still to see stories like this and see governments cracking down on Bitcoin or see like El Salvador's government really failing

in terms of its Bitcoin mission. and instead of people going, damn, you know, that was really something that gave me hope that there was something better on the horizon. It's like you said earlier, Ben, no one, no one has Bitcoin or has a disposable income to buy Bitcoin. And so when a new grave, you know, shows up in the cemetery, they get their tap dancing shoes on, right? They don't go with the black suit. And I think a lot of people now are in that mode because, like we talked earlier, prices ripping. Like, no one on this stream really did anything. You might have in like a head nod and a fist bump, but that's about it.

Other people are really suffering big time and they don't want to see you succeed and they want to be able to say that I told you five years ago the government would ban Bitcoin or I told you five years ago that they'd never let you spend it, that it was too dangerous, that it financed terrorism, all these things that tornado cash guys got hit with tornado cash, obviously more Ethereum, but the sort of premise still holds. There's a lot of people who want to see. this thing die and they may only express those views on a voodoo doll on a Thursday night, but they really do feel like that.

And a lot of those guys, Jeff, I would guess in Tradfai, I mean, I see you used to, I don't know if you still do this, but you used to tweet all the time that Tradfai, um, bewilderment was increasing. And so like this bewilderment, these guys want this thing to fail because nobody likes being bewildered. Nobody likes getting on stage at a conference and having, uh, you know, the punter raise his hand and go, yeah, this is all good. I appreciate your 60 slide deck, but you're underperforming Bitcoin by 200%. And I'm wondering why. Nobody wants to answer those questions anymore. And so whether

you're a guy who's only able to afford lucky charms and other government slop, or you're a guy who spent this whole career analyzing charts and you're mad that no one values a skill anymore, the failure, I think, is the preferred outcome for a huge majority of people. And so galvanizing the Bitcoiners behind these causes is important because you ain't going to galvanize the public. That's for sure. I wanted to kind of chat about why I think in the end, this is still bullish. Okay. All right.

It's all bullish. That's right. All bullish. Higher, higher. I honestly think if they tried to pull this shit, it will still fail. maybe it would be a huge pain in the ass for a period of time but I think it will still fail

I was again I was just in Riga one of my favorite presentations that I got to watch was Calais he's working on eCash on he's doing the cashew thing but he finished his he finished his patient he was doing a thing on privacy

and he finished with the Phil Zimmerman quote But if privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy. And I kind of want to outline what I think would come to fruition if this were to take place. I think it would kind of echo what we saw with like the coin join coordinators and all that kind of stuff. Now, would a number of people, would a bunch of people maybe just comply and get the, the, get the licensed Bitcoin wallets? Yeah, sure. People, people always use the easiest possible thing until the easiest possible thing is really a burden. But what I think would likely come to fruition. So earlier last year, beginning last year, we saw, you know, samurai wallet shut down,

there's service taken down everything. You know, unfortunately, they've entered a plea deal. for the whole money transmission thing. We also saw Wasabi Wallet with their coin join. They sunsetted their... I forgot about that. Yeah, they sunsetted their coin coin coin coin. Just out of fear. But what we saw come to fruition is that other coordinators started popping up in the wild.

So we saw a new Wasabi coin join coordinator pop up. And you can still use a softened. software and you just literally plunk in a little URL into the settings. And now you have coin join again with Wasabi. We also saw a fork of samurai wallet pop up, Ashikaru. And so as of now, and it's not just the wallet. It's like you can full on run whirlpool again. And the reason you can do it is because a group of developers forked the open source

project. and said, fuck it, we're going to protect our identities as best we can, which obviously the samurai devs tried to, but one of them was already, you know, they were already kind of publicly known in the first place. I think what you see is you see developers just go fully underground and just start releasing shit

and forking old projects. So to your point about Sparrow and it coming for Sparrow, even though it's like a desktop wallet, and it goes that far where you can't even run shit on desktop. I think that, you know, if that were to come to fruition, somebody's going to go, they're going to fork the open source code and just create a new version of Sparrow that is also open source

and they'll do it as a completely anonymous developer. And does that mean that, again, a bunch of people are using licensed KYC'd Bitcoin wallets, perhaps, almost certainly so. But does that also mean another subset of people say, fuck this? There's no way I'm uploading my ID to a Bitcoin wallet from the app store. It also means that, I think. And I think that it expedites that. I also think it results in, I mean, Jack Dorsey just put up another bounty for a decentralized

censorship-resistant GitHub, right? Like, I think we see that. I think we see things like, you know, you were talking about, you know, like side-loading APKs onto Android phones instead of having to go to the Google Play Store. I think we'll see more of that. Unfortunately, if you've got an iPhone,

you're just kind of hooped, but you probably, you'll see more of the, what is it, the, the, when you just do like a browser-based, I'm trying to around. Progressive web apps. I got a beef with this thesis, man. I got to tell you because there's so much centralization now on the hosting side, on the ISP side. Like, money laundering and KIC laws are serious. Like, that's jail time. I don't know that Rogers or Bell is going to be able to pin down super easily, you know, where you're downloading your stuff from. But here in Canada, there's laws. in place, in second reading that are going to become legislation very soon, that there's,

that law enforcement is going to be able to get information about your browsing from your ISP without telling you. And then, you know, you see the sort of the directionality of all this stuff is going one way. And so I see people in the chats going, well, something else will come, something else will come. Like short of hosting this on something that uses no public data. data transfer, no public network infrastructure, no public compute at all.

And then if you use private, the companies have to be willing to stand up to the authorities on something like KYC AML violations. Does anyone really think this is a likely outcome? You can't really tell me that that's a likely outcome. Because no one in this chat, a lot of big talk in the chat, none of you have the balls. the testicular fortitude to break those laws and cost yourself and your family life behind bars or 10 years behind bars or 15 years behind bars none of you okay i include myself in those ranks so what is the solution i don't know what it is but i think part of me agrees with some of you guys

saying look this is why it's important to get politically involved as a group as a group of bitcointers as a new group like we've all agreed, suddenly finds ourselves with a ton of capital and a little bit of free time and some connections, like this is the time to use those connections and put them to the test. The incentive for governments is the same as the incentive for the people inside those governments.

If they hold Bitcoin, if they understand it, if they are also experiencing economic gains from the Bitcoin, then they have to be made to realize that part of those gains comes from the ability for Bitcoin to be used non-crestodially, sovereignly, you know, pick your sort of descriptor. This is the answer.

Like mesh networks. Hold on. Does jurisdictional arbitrage come into this? Just flagged theory. For how long? For how long? Like, you know, in Europe, you can't even go on Spotify

without putting your age in now. Under the, you know, this sort of four horsemen of the infopocalypse. This is a theory that's been floating around for a long time. I'm saying, I'm talking about like Western. Okay, so like U.S., Canada, kind of Western Europe, and then you've got, you know, other countries that are not fans of Western culture. Does that come into play where they are, you know, like I'm, I've got to imagine.

Dubai, UAE, all of these countries that are a bit more free, people move. Capital moves. Yeah, that's a good point, too. Capital moves. And I think, capital ultimately rules like the world too. So it was so funny. I, um, so I moved recently and, um,

I met a local Bitcoiner group and the guy that leads to the local Bitcoiner group is like, oh, you know, I'm thinking about moving here like this state's so capitally repulsive and, you know, that, that was,

that was kind of what he led with? And I said, well, what are you doing about it? And like, like, nothing's going to change unless you're doing something about it. And if you're,

if you're strong, like if you have strong capital, and you've got a group of other people with strong capital, go make a difference. Go run for politics. Go start a business and start to like weasel get your way in. Like money talks and like nothing's going to change unless people do things about it. And like I literally quit my job in reinsurance. I was making really good money.

I left because I wanted to work in this space. I needed to spend my energy in the space. I cared. Do I know everything about it? Absolutely not. But I'm going to go like raise capital and go make a difference as much as I can. And I encourage everybody to do it. And we need to work together.

that that's just how this stuff works and that capital will talk and that capital will make moves in the market so i guess my general theory here is as more companies and individuals and different teams are pushing more capital into this marketplace it gives people more power and you got to use that power like get into politics talk to people and start working in the space because if you don't then there's nobody else doing it joey i'll just say that you know when uh When Canada cracks down on everything and outlaws self-custody, we will welcome you with open arms in the free of Alberta. You can come, build a cabin in the mountains, and we'll all live happily ever after when we

separate from Canada. I understand Dave Bradley has some kind of underground bunker where you're able to smoke inside, so I'm looking forward to having a cigar with Dave. And neither confirm or deny those allegations. But if it were true, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to. Jeff is right about the capital thing. And I hope people realize that. That, you know, having capital and being involved in Bitcoin is the thing to do. And spreading the message is the thing to do. Like, talk about it. Don't be shy about what you know and what you think is going on. Well, and so therein lies the incentives in that you're going to have

over the coming years, many, many Bitcoiners with considerable amounts of capital, specifically because they're involved in Bitcoin. And that gives them not only the power to go wherever they want to any friendly jurisdiction that does, will have them and want to entice their capital go there, but it will also give them opportunities to gain more influence in their local jurisdiction. So I think both of those things will come into play. Will it be successful everywhere? No, but I do think that over, I mean, all right.

Like, my wife just got her second passport. Like, we're doing that because of these types of reasons. We're already exploring things like that. I know of prominent Bitcoiners that are leaving, that, like, have not left yet, that are, like, their plans are already in motion. They're already leaving the country. with their capital. So yeah.

Yeah. And capital flows to where it's treated best. And if you have the opportunity to make a difference and you can make change that you want to see, then awesome. If not, then it's going to flow to where it wants to go. And like for example, this has happened throughout history. This isn't a novel concept, right? Like you think about, again, the state that I'm located in, insurance companies.

It's one of the most favorable states for insurance. companies on the planet. What is an insurance company? Insurance company is a capital company that provides coverage for like your population. And that design, like those people have power. And that company started really small and got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it started to have influence. And that influence made changes in regulation to make it even more favorable for those types of companies to exist there. And that it starts small, but it's these little snowball effects all over the planet that start to make a really big impact. So start small and then you start making a much bigger impact across everything. Yeah. I'm I am still incredibly I'm actually quite hopeful for the

future. It always is a pain in the ass when you see these little things like the the privacy stuff and and all the all you know samurai and everything being shut down some of these plea deals and everything, it's always really hard seeing stuff like this. But I do believe that in the long run, yeah. If I might add one point, working in a hospital where I interact a lot with government bureaucracy and things that are run by government, I think we overestimate how long governments are lasting. So I don't think this something that's so poorly run is last that long, you know? So I'm not that scared of them what how they're going to be in 20 years. Good point. It's a good point. I'm just leaving it out there.

Not overly not overly capable I guess. Yeah, I think we're going to be able to code something that's a little bit more, you know, smart than these failing institutions. So just throwing it out there. I I remain very optimistic. Uh, It's just, you know, they're not going to go without a fight. You know, it's just. And right now, they still have the exorbitant privilege of being able to print money that people will still accept. But at some point. They might be going down because they need people to operate their Fiat machines.

And the people are just, people themselves are just, you know, as I'm said, they're fighting themselves. they're fighting the fiat inside themselves. They're fighting the devil inside themselves. And it looks like the devil is winning unless you adopt Bitcoin. So. Gentlemen, I think this is a good time to begin to round out. I will say everybody that has been watching over the course of the show, we've got like 1,200 live viewers on YouTube right now currently,

which is awesome. And it looks like across the course of the episode, we've had between X and YouTube alone, we've had like 13, 14,000 people come through here, which is pretty wild. So if you're watching, of course, give that like a little slap, share this wherever you are watching it.

But I do want to quickly kind of go down the line if any of you guys have like a final thought, a takeaway from any of the conversations we had. And also, if you want to point people towards something that you think they should check out, then I would highly, highly recommend you do that. So maybe I'll go to Jeff first.

Any final thoughts from the evening? Anything you want to point people towards? Yeah. Final thoughts is I think Bitcoin is making just tremendous progress. We're moving forward at a great pace here. I think one general theme and takeaway I have is I think a lot, a large portion of the world is not going to wake up until Bitcoin hits like 400,000. At that point, it will be worth more than the average home.

in the United States, 420,000. I think that's like the next big threshold before we see this like awakening. And I don't think we're going to see a lot of noise or concerns until we hit some point like that. Other than that, aside from that, it's hard for people to conceptualize. Prior to this, Bitcoin was worth less than a car. Like you could go still get a car and one Bitcoin is worth less than a car. people can't wrap their heads around it. So I think the world is shifting. And so it started really

store of value. And I think we're shifting a little bit more into this unit of account perspective. I think medium of exchange, which you guys are very focused on it, I think is amazing. And I think we need people focused on it, but I think it's going to take a long time. And I think it's helpful to start thinking of Bitcoin as a unit of account across all things in the world, equity market, bond market, your portfolio, your net worth. And you're starting to reconcernation. conceptualize your world in that way. So all things are really positive and moving forward. I'm incredibly bullish on all things at the moment, especially looking at Q3, Q4.

There's a lot of things to be excited about on the horizon. And that's it. Other places that I am at, I have host the True North podcast every Wednesday. It's happening tonight. I'm not going to be on it until the second half of the podcast. And then the hurdle rate podcast, which I do with Matt Cole, CEO of Strive and Ben workman and Tim Kotzman as well and that's every Monday every Tuesday awesome awesome and just so everybody knows all these guys handles are in the show notes so make sure you give them a follow and

see what they're up to but I'll toss it to uh ummaud amos uh any final thoughts anything you want to point people towards uh no I mean some people have mentioned that they're interested in learning more about health and bitcoin I've done a podcast with BTC sessions check it out and uh keep your Bitcoin stay healthy. Perfect. I love it. The health thing is is coming in hard for Bitcoiners. I love to see it. So, yeah, Joey, I'll toss it to you. Any final thoughts? Something to point people towards. Really a pleasure chatting with you guys. Ben, thanks for having me as always. And then the theme, I'm with Jeff. I'm bullish on a lot of stuff. Life is good if you're a bitcooner. And if you're not a bitcoiner, it's not too late to become one. So don't despair.

just start stacking before it's too late. You can find me every Monday, Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. We record 7 o'clock Eastern. And then every Wednesday we do an interview, not every Wednesday in the summer, but most Wednesdays. And we just had Dr. Ramos on. Maybe the week ago, I think. I'm on, pretty sure, yeah.

Lots of people in the Canadian Bitcoiners Discord talking about blue light glasses now. So you've done your job, sir. And for those in the chat, I will be emceeing the Canadian conference again this year. you're returning champion. So looking forward to seeing you guys there if you're headed to Montreal. Jeff, great.

Glad to hear that. Yeah. Hey, great. So we'll see you guys there. And I think that's the 10th, 11th of October, something like that. Or it is a little bit later, I forget. But yeah, looking forward to it all the same. Thanks again, Ben.

Oh, yeah. And Joey, one more question for you. If you could give a rating out of 10, how would you rate today's thumbnail on title? You're getting absolutely pasted for the thumbnail in the comments. I don't know if you see that. Because, like, I, first of all, I think we should all be glowing in the, you know, Bitcoin SBR vault with Sailor and Jerome Powell and whoever else is going to be there. But I'll settle for the lineup with the fire in the background. That's pretty standard template I see.

Yeah. Yeah. It does this trick. I will say, here's the trick, is that people that are coming in brand new who would still click on, like, you know, a very like number go up type or panicky type titles. They come in because of that and then they come and they listen to a conversation like this. I hope you're right. I hope you're right.

They do. And then the best part is they then get funneled into the tutorials. The tutorials numbers are doing so well because of it. I'm glad to hear that. Your tutorials are important, Ben. You do a lot of good work. I want you to keep doing it. So if it means that you have to, you know, bait at the slop trough, I'll forgive you.

There's a lot of people I will not forgive, but I'll, I'll take it. I'm fine with people ripping me on me for it because, hey, it gets people on the wallets and the self-custody, so let's fucking go. Anyways, gentlemen, I will say a big thank you for being here, being a part of the show. Everybody, please do give them a follow. They're down in the show notes. And until next time, make sure you pay attention to the clip at the end of the video, is very, very important, but I'll see you guys next time for your daily session.

Have a good Wednesday evening. See you all. Hey, you. Yes, you watching the Bitcoin price movements and the latest exciting news. It's awesome to stay informed, but the real power of Bitcoin comes from taking control. Don't just watch, take action. Head over to btccessions.ca.ca. Learn for free step-by-step tutorials that guide you through every major skills.

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