BTC Sessions - Economic INVINCIBILITY, Bitcoin vs Debt: Financial Strength w Marko Zlatic – Mentor Sessions Ep.003

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Bitcoiners, imagine being so financially resilient that you can say "NO" to anything—bad jobs, toxic deals, or fiat traps. In this empowering episode of Mentor Sessions (recorded Feb 19, 2025), Marko from Whiteboard Finance —a sat-stacking pro since 2018—reveals how deleveraging unlocks your financial invulnerability. Marko praises Bitcoiners’ savvy, then drops actionable strategies to fortify your stack and ditch debt. From dodging fiat liabilities to blending Bitcoin with real assets, this is your guide to stacking sats from a position of pure strength. Pokémon cards to sound money—Marko’s journey will inspire you to stand tall and say NO when it matters.Timestamps: • 00:00:00 - Intro and Guest Introduction• 00:01:41 - Avoiding Debt to Stack Bitcoin• 00:08:20 - Bitcoin Allocation and Buying Strategy• 00:21:06 - Practical Cash Management Advice• 00:31:30 - Advice for Young Investors• 00:39:02 - Motivations and Financial Freedom• 00:50:13 - Book Recommendations for Personal Finance• 00:55:00 - Closing Thoughts on Long-Term WealthConnect with Marko: • Twitter/X: @WhiteboardFin • YouTube: Whiteboard Finance - www.youtube.com/@WhiteBoardFinance• Instagram: @whiteboardfinance • Community: Whiteboard Finance University (Check his channel for more!)FREE Bitcoin Book Giveaway:New to Bitcoin? Grab a free copy of Magic Internet Money by Jesse Berger! CLICK THE LINK:https://bitcoinmentororange.com/magic-internet-money Don’t have enough time to learn Bitcoin Self-Custody? Get Personalized, Expert guidance at Bitcoin Mentor. Check out https://bitcoinmentor.io/ Subscribe to Mentor Sessions:Don’t miss an episode—hit that subscribe button and follow us: • BTC Sessions: https://x.com/BTCsessions • Nathan: https://x.com/theBTCmentor• Gary: https://x.com/GaryLeeNYC BITCOIN WELL is the quickest and easiest way to get Bitcoin directly into self custody. They also offer non-KYC sells and bill payments. Transparent 1% spread, no additional fees and no withdrawal fees. Check them out today!https://qrco.de/bfiDC6Mine Bitcoin like a pro! 🚀 BLOCKWARE offers rigs, hosting, and a Marketplace to buy miners instantly or sell anytime. No long-term commitment, total flexibility. Start mining today! 🌟 #Bitcoin #Mining https://qrco.de/bfiD4ZBOOK private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/#BitcoinEducation #Bitcoin #FinancialResilience #StackSats #HODL #WhiteboardFinance #financialfreedom #finacialeducation

You're not forced to do anything you don't want to do. Your boss gives you shit. Hey, I got a few Bitcoin in the bank or in my cold storage and I have no debt. Go screw yourself. Today on mentor sessions, we're joined by Marco Zlotic of Whiteboard Finance. And by today, I mean pre-dip February 19th when we recorded this episode. With over 1 million subscribers and more than 65 million views, Marco brings a wealth of knowledge when it comes to entrepreneurship and personal finance.

We discussed how bitcoins can build resiliency by stacking stats and staying out of debt so they can always have the freedom to say no. You can find his work on YouTube where he produces engaging and enlightening videos and also on Twitter where he is a shameless troll. All right. Good morning, Marco. Thank you so much for joining us. I want to kind of dive right into it because you're coming from the personal finance world

and education on that side too. So I want to just kind of start the conversation with which aspects of personal finance do you think Bitcoiners should be aware of? Yeah, so I think ironically, I think Bitcoiners understand money better than most personal finance experts in quotes, especially at social media. Is that ironic? I think it's very ironic because most personal finance people don't understand Bitcoin. And most Bitcoiners, I don't want to say most, but a lot of them online, at least the loudest ones, they act like they're 120% leveraged into Bitcoin with zero percent cash. I think a lot of them are full of shit, to be completely honest.

So I'm more... Bingle online, full of shit? I never would have guessed. Yeah, so I'm more of the golden middle. That's how I live my entire life. A lot of people make fun of me for that. But at the end of the day, I don't have any Fiat debt, and I did that intentionally just so I can stack more sets. Nice. Yeah, and the funny thing is, you know, people say, well, why would you pay off debt? Why would you pay off fixed rate debt? Things like that. And obviously there comes a point where you need to make a distinction of what is low interest rate debt. And at the time of this recording, I think anything above 7% should probably be paid off.

That way you can just reduce your risk exposure. And then people say, well, hey, Bitcoin's Kager is 50, 60, 70% year over year. Well, right now it's on par with gold. If you look at the last four years, it's about 14%. Gold and Bitcoin have the same exact Kager right now. I think it's an all-time low for the Bitcoin Kager as well. It is an all-time low. So that's why I come into this podcast, not adversarial.

it's kind of just like, hey, guys, you're celebrating a little bit too early. And I've been in this space for a pretty long time. So first time I heard about Bitcoin was 2013. I was working at a tech startup here in Cleveland. Didn't buy it. I still had traditional, you know, finance fiat brain. I have a finance degree, which I got in December of 2010. I'm so sorry to hear that, yeah. Yeah, completely dismissed it. But the funny thing is, as I was telling you guys, is, I've been a bitcoiner before Bitcoin was even created. I watched zeitgeist in 2007, 2008. I was getting my finance degree in the middle of 2007, 2008, understood fractional reserve banking, all this stuff for many, many years now.

But the thing is, is what I want to tell Bitcoiners is not necessarily what they do or don't understand about personal finance because I think they understand finance better than 95% of the population, if not more. The thing is, is that I think risk tolerance, and I understand that volatility is not necessarily risk, but at the end of the day, you know, you do have to pay the Piper with Fiat dollars still in 2025. So I would just tell people to be more cautious than they are celebrating in the end zone. It's kind of like I act like you've been here before kind of a thing. No, that makes perfect sense too. I'm curious even in that too. Are there common mistakes? I know

you have a lot of conversations with people about personal finance, whether Bitcoin or not, but are there common mistakes you see people making? I know we kind of talked about leverage and maybe, you know, unproductive debt. Is there anything that is a recurring topic, a reoccurring, topic, a recurring like, guys, you got to start here. Yeah, that's a good question. When it comes to Bitcoiners, not necessarily, because again, I am a Bitcoiner to my core, at my core, and I genuinely enjoy the company and conversations with Bitcoiners. We have a pretty big Bitcoin meetup here in Northeast Ohio.

There's people from Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, the River guys, they always host a lot of good meetups here in Columbus. But to be honest with you, I don't see many. pitfalls other than the um so some people say diversification is diversification you know why would i invest in vt i like vanguard's total u.s stock market fund or why would i invest in v o or the s mp 500 when bitcoin is the best performing asset 11 out of the last 14 years right and which i agree however you can say the same thing for many high-flying tech stocks you can say that for tesla you can say that for Vydea. You can say that for micro strategy since, you know, since the beginning of this year or

since the beginning of 2024. But that's not always going to be like that. And yes, in the grand scheme of things, I think Bitcoiners, we are directionally correct. But at the same time, you know, I think the euphoria phase, especially online, always comes out after these huge, you know, bowl runs, right? We went from 16K to 108K in what, 18 months, you know? So I think a lot of people are just celebrating a little bit too early. I think directionally we will be correct. Over time, we will be correct. But that doesn't mean that we're always going to be correct, at least in the short term. So just be a little bit more humble, in my opinion. Stay humble and stack sats is never a bad suggestion. Actually, I want to jump back for a second because I'm kind of curious too on this.

You mentioned being a Bitcoin before Bitcoin too. Was you in the kind of libertarian camp, the sound money camp? What was your framework coming into this? Yeah, I'm definitely part of the sound money camp just because, but here's the thing. I play both sides, you guys. So just to get back to my point of diversification equals diversification, I don't believe that at all because my background was in commercial real estate. I've seen people drink themselves to death. I've seen people jump off their own buildings. I've seen people kill themselves. I've seen families ruined after 0708, especially in commercial real estate. Stock market, you know, whatever, that can always come back. But commercial real estate, a lot of people's entire identities and net worths are tied.

to that asset class. So for me, my personal philosophy is a little bit of cash, a little bit of precious metals and alternatives such as collectibles. It could be cars, could be trading cards, could be things like that, things that can't be made anymore, like an air-cooled Porsche, right? People don't think of that as an investment. My dad and I would just- What's your favorite year? 1983. I love the 88-9-11. Yeah. So things that just can't be created out of thin air, right? So a little bit of a little bit of cash, a little bit of collectibles, a little bit of precious metals, a little bit of equities, real estate, and obviously Bitcoin. Bitcoin for me has its own portion of my net worth and my

portfolio. It doesn't fall in with the precious metals and collectibles. That's its own thing. So a lot of Bitcoiners listening to this are going to say, oh, you're an idiot. I've outperformed you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, at the end of the day, I have no risk. So that's what I want to come back to is take care of first things first. When you're building a skyscraper, you dig deep first create a solid foundation, then you build up. Okay, you don't go out and put 99% of your net worth and micro strategy, right? And I think a lot of Bitcoiners, especially this cycle, I've been around for three cycles now. They're turning into Fiat Maxis and they don't even know it. Okay. Yeah, I've noticed a little bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. So sorry if I'm coming off is kind of like,

this is years of Twitter in one interview. Yeah. I'm just kind of venting my frustration in the last 15 minutes. No, not at all, Marco. I read about Bitcoin last week, and therefore I know everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, I think you make a good point, too, because everyone's risk tolerance, the responsibilities, their time frame of their outlook is going to be different.

And I think the long-term strategy, that long-term thinking, that low-time preference, is kind of where we want to be. So I know you can't speak to the specifics of somebody. And I kind of have two questions here, but even just starting off, you mentioned that Bitcoin for you was something separate. You're keeping it different from those other assets there to. How are you working it into your framework? Where does it fit for just you?

For me, it's always been for years now. So 15% of my net worth. So that doesn't sound like a lot, right? Some people say I'm 80% Bitcoin. Some people say 50. It's significantly higher than that right now, just based on my cost basis and also what it's grown to. I've been buying every week since 2018.

I have videos on my YouTube channel interviewing people since December of 2017, really got into it in 2018. and then I switched to daily dollar cost averaging. So for me, I don't even look at the price. That's why I was able to live through 64 to 16K without blinking and I because of my other obligations being taken care of, right? Other people, they're forced to sell.

When their rent is due and the car payment is due and the mortgage is three months late, oh, shit, I got to sell my stats, right? That's the last thing you want to do. So what smart people would do is they would either take out more debt and just pray to God that Bitcoin keeps going up. I don't like to pray to God when it comes to my investments. I like to be in more control. So I take risk completely off the table.

I stay humble and I stack sets. That's what I do. No, it's a very good strategy. And again, it seems like you're really coming from that, like we're de-leveraging, we're de-risking as much as possible. And again, of course, Bitcoin is the like the trustless asset. So it makes perfect sense why it would be part of this plan as well, too. I'm kind of curious even just quickly.

With that 15% that you're allocating for Bitcoin, are you rebalancing it? over time. Is that something? No. Okay. So it's just continuously growing. Yeah. So if this was, if this was equities, so let's say equities is 35% of my net worth, right? Stocks. If that grew, say I invested in Nvidia, it grew to 60%, right? 60% of my net worth is now on Nvidia. What would I do? I'd sell 25% of 60 to get back to 35, right? With Bitcoin, I'm never selling. I don't sell Bitcoin. Why would I sell something that's finite and scarce when they can just print more fiat money, They can just buy back more stock.

The M2 money supply goes up. Stocks go up. Everything goes up, right? We all understand as Bitcoiners how that works. So to answer your question, no, I will never sell a SAT. It's probably something I'll treat as commercial real estate. All right, guys. Now, quick brief message from this episode, sponsors.

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And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC sessions to sign up today. And you can share your own personalized referral link to earn commissions. So every wealthy commercial real estate family ever in history, what they do is they own the apartment building. They take out a 50, 60, 70 percent loan to value cash out refi. Let's say the apartment building is worth a million bucks just for easy numbers. They take out a 75 percent loan to value, right?

Maybe that's a little bit high. Let's say 50. They pull out 500 grand tax free cash out refi. They live off the 500 grand. They slap on the debt on the property. they raise the rents a little bit or improve the property to be able to justify raising the rents. The new higher rents take care of the debt service. They live off the money tax free, rinse and repeat until the end of time, right?

Not literally until the end of time, but you know what I mean. If it's a good asset and a good property. Some of those legacy families I think have been, right? I think that really is the name of the game. Like if you have prime real estate in a major metropolitan area, you don't sell it. You just keep refinancing against it. Yeah, it's Sailor's analogy of, you know, digital Manhattan, right? So that's what everyone does.

Now with Bitcoin, that's kind of, I'm thinking about treating it that way, but at the same time, Bitcoin doesn't have an internal rate of return. It doesn't produce anything, right? We know it's a digital store of capital. It's a digital store of value, but it doesn't produce rents, right? So how can I possibly borrow against this? You're just hoping that the Bitcoin goes up before your loan comes due, right? So that's, again, I don't want to pray to God that my investments go up. I just want to live a normal life in the golden middle. So it may be something that I borrow against, depending on how, with Sab 121 and all the stuff we've been hearing about, it'll probably get cheaper to borrow against your Bitcoin when it becomes institutionalized with the J.P. Morgan's of the world and the chases and things like that. Will it ever get there? I have no idea. But for me, I'm not rebalancing. I'm never selling. It's something that I would like my kids and grandkids to have.

But I do also have a threshold of, hey, you know, will I trade it for something that's Fiat, maybe a car or something? I don't need a house. I don't need a vacation home. I don't need a Ferrari. It's just something that'll make my life a little bit better. Maybe it's a trip to go watch a soccer game I've always wanted to go to or, you know, take my wife out somewhere. Then maybe I'll sell some sats. But for something stupid or fiat, I'm never selling.

No, 100%. Because ultimately, like, it's money. It's a tool, right? We don't want Bitcoin in and of itself. We want it for the things that it can give us. And ultimately, that usually ends up being time. So spending it, like, not selling your Bitcoin, but spending it on a new family car or an experience with the family makes complete sense to me. I do have a few more questions, but Gary, I've been hogging the mic.

Sure. No, not at all. I mean, you mentioned Sab 121 and, you know, being able to borrow against Bitcoin for our listeners, in case there's somebody who doesn't understand what that is, could you explain that? What, Sab 121 or just the concept of borrowing? Well, I think we all mostly understand what you can borrow something and then you return that. I think most of us, Bitcoiners can be a little slow sometimes. We get the concept of borrowing, but how Sab 121 plays into that.

Yes, I mean, there's been a ton of restrictions. Again, I'm not some Gary Gensler, bio, autobiographer, but just with choke point and SAB121 and Bitcoin being able to be entrenched to the financial system. So what I believe is the way it was treated was it had something to do with their accounting or the way it's registered on their books, right? So I'm not an expert in that, but what the removal of that is going to do is it's going to allow financial institutions to be able to integrate Bitcoin a lot more from an accounting standpoint and a functional standpoint. Again, I'm not an expert on it, but I just think that I'm of the camp that Bitcoin needs to become financialized. It happened with real estate. It happened with gold with GLD and the

ETFs. It happened last January with Bitcoin ETFs. I'm not against that. What I am somewhat against, and this is maybe another whole conversation is I created a meme with the Trojan horse with the picture of Brian Armstrong and Gary Gensler at the Trojan Horses Head. And I feel like it could be another executive order because Coinbase is the custody to all the, well, not all, but like nine or ten of these ETFs. The vast majority, yeah. Fidelity is the only one doing themselves that I'm aware of. Fidelity, FBTC, exactly, Nathan.

So I know I didn't quite answer your question, Gary, but my point is I'm not against the financialization of the asset itself. I'm against the honeypot that is creating because it's a digital, it's a, it's a, derivative of a thing. It's a, it's a derivative of a digital asset. I just want to own the asset. I don't want the GLD, ETF, I want to own physical gold. I don't want the FBTC or the Ibit and writing options and doing all this fiat stuff. I just want the Bitcoin and cold self-storage. No, that makes sense. And Sab one from my understanding banks and other institutions weren't allowed to count Bitcoin as assets, positive assets for them on their balance sheets before and now changing that you can.

More importantly, you said, talking about investing in collectibles, things that can't be reproduced. How many of my three Harold Baines rookie cards should I be holding on to? Well, what's your address? I'm just kidding. Where are they currently held? I'm just kidding. So, yeah, so I have, I have basketball rookie cards.

And I'm not some big, like, Gary V. trading cards, Pokemon, you know, I'm 37 years old with kids. I did hear that was the origin story, though. Yeah, 100%. And maybe I'll start like a wine tasting channel. I'll start with Pione Lane. Oh, that's a good idea. I'm just kidding. So for me, for people value that kind of stuff.

It's a nostalgia factor. It's a rarity factor. You know, things like that. I have like, I don't know, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, stuff like that. I'm not even a fan of LeBron, to be honest, even though I'm from Cleveland. I mean, who is? The old man has a collection of hockey cards for the grandkids that's just sitting there in the basement. Yeah. Well, I think that Bitcoin, I'm a big monetary premium guy. If you guys follow, like Ralph Seguri from Swan. He has a whole, the Nakamoto calculator. So I have a video on my YouTube channel talking about the monetary premium of all these different things getting sucked up by the vacuum cleaner, which is Bitcoin, right? So a lot of people selling their real estate for Bitcoin. And when I say a lot, maybe 0.5% of landlords. But it's going to get bigger because I think that. We're seeing that too.

our education and consulting services, right? A lot of these are kind of mum and pop realtors that are saying like, okay, I kind of want to get out of this a little bit and move some into Bitcoin, because it's a little less of a hassle. 100%. So I think, you know, fair value, you know, a lot of people always say, hey, it's going to at least be gold's market cap. You know, it's going to at least be, you know, 8, 9x from here, 10x from here at the current market caps. But that's my base case and always has been. So why would I sell Bitcoin right now for $96,000? Right. It makes no sense. So until that happens, I think people or the general population needs to understand monetary premium and why we're forced to become our own financial advisors. Why is Gary forced to become, you know, a financial professional when he just wants to collect, you know, baseball cards?

Thank you. Yeah, exactly. Why is my doctor have to be a day trader, you know, just to preserve his purchasing power? I want my doctor to be a doctor, not a day trader, right? So I think a lot of people don't even understand like, why do I need to invest? Why do I have a 401K? Why do I have a Roth IRA? These are the things that frustrate me, especially when it comes to like ZERP, zero interest

rate policy, you know, instead of paying off debt or saving money, you're forced to become a speculator, right? You have no choice. You'll fall behind, yeah. You have no choice. I have so many videos on my channel called savers or losers. I'm, my parents are immigrants. I'm naturally a saver.

My parents are naturally savers, but we're losers. We're losing our purchasing power. to inflation, which everyone watching this channel and video knows, but it just frustrates me because 98.5% of the population just goes, index funds, Roth IRA 401K, well, why do you even have to do that in the first place, right? Because there's no better alternative. So that's what I'm trying to do with my channel. It's been completely normalized, yeah. Go ahead. I noticed in the video I was just watching of yours, it's a 2025 plan and you broke down where you had different things. You had 15% in cash. And I think you had, I don't know, it was like 15%

in Bitcoin, 33% in stocks, 32% in retail, and then precious metals around 4% or so. I assume that's something you're going to be changing month to month, year to year. That breakdown, I assume, is not static. And follow-up question, I was just talking about this with Nate earlier. I have a lot of long-term savings in Bitcoin. I'm happy to do that because I'm thinking 5, 10, 10, year, 15, 20-year time horizon. A lot of it's for my kids. It's not even for me.

I don't intend to never touching it. But I do need to have cash something liquid because we do. do live in a country where Bitcoin is not considered a currency. It's taxed as an asset. And, you know, I could, I could sell some stuff off and use it to spend. But I just, I'm lazy. I don't have to go through the trouble of seriously, every time I want to buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin, well, what did I, what did I buy it at? Now, what am I selling it at? Now, to fill out this stupid forum for the IRS and say, well, this was the difference on this date and keep track of my UTXOs. So with that in mind, I mean, even with Bitcoiners who are really into Bitcoin like I am,

what kind of advice would you have them for, you know, where to keep their money, I don't know, three months, six months a year that, you know, they need something liquid within that time frame. Yeah, so I moved a lot of my cash. So it just all depends on when people watch this video because if you would have asked this five years ago during ZERP before Corona, you're getting 0.3% in a savings account, right? You know, inflation is three, four, five, ten percent before Corona. Then Corona happens, you know, they crank everything up, right? Interest rates go crazy.

At the time of this recording, high-yield savings accounts are basically yielding 4 percent, right? That's not keeping up with real inflation. Eggs are, you know, $9 a dozen right now, okay? What I moved a lot of my cash to was SGOV, SGOV. It's basically BlackRock zero to three-month treasury T-T bill ETF. So what this does is if you do, live in a state with state income tax, not like your Texans or your Floridians or Californians, but the rest of the country where there is state income tax, that state income tax exempt and it

yields at the time this is recording right around 5%. So it's more than a high yield savings account and you don't have to pay the state income tax. That's just the place for cash. It's an ETF. You can sell it immediately just like a stock. It's not something you have to wait until the end of the day. It's not something where it takes forever to transfer. You can literally sell it like any other stock. It's very liquid. And I'm not going to get it with a capital gains thing on this. You can technically, but the deviation is pennies, pennies. So even if you sold 100 grand, it's going to be what, like 10 cents. You know, it could be, it could be up. That's still a separate form and the IRS has gone after people for less. Yeah, 100%. So to your point with the UTXOs and buying a cup of coffee

and all that. I mean, we all know that hopefully, you know, lightning and other layer twos and potential threes down the road, they're going to make all that much easier. I think Bitcoin, which we all know, is going to be the base layer money. So I'm a big fan of Nick Bodia's layered money book. You know, that's the way that I look at it, I think that Bitcoin, especially with, I think what the United States is doing right now, turning these stable coins or using dollars, or marrying stable coins with dollars, because right now our biggest export is what? It's inflation. It's dollars, right? That's how we control, you know, pretty much the whole world past Bretton Woods, or post-Bretton Woods, excuse me. I think that base layer case for Bitcoin is still more than alive than ever.

We'll have to see, I mean, the general population for whatever reason, I don't know if it's bots, but XRP always keeps coming up in the conversation. And I have no idea. Am I living in the Matrix? Dude, what's going on here, dude? No, their bot farm is insane. And the amount of questions I keep getting about it's so frustrating. And like, people I've been talking to about years about Bitcoin, they finally come to me. Like, hey, I got some questions for them. What about XRP? Yeah.

What about XRP? It's like, oh, love of God. Like, did you not hear anything I said to you over the last couple of years? Dude, I can tell you have an IRA invested with a company. I'm not going to say the name, but I, my guy who talks to me, we've talked about before. And after it shut up over $100,000, I dropped him a line. I said, hey, congratulations.

I assumed he was in on Bitcoin because we talked about it. He's like, oh, congratulations for what? And, you know, for $100,000. Oh, I'm very happy for you. I'm kind of all in on XRP. I'm like, oh, okay. So these people are real. They exist.

He seems like a thoughtful dude, nice guy, everything, but, you know, that's his game. Where I should have went with this in the beginning before going on my hubris rant of Bitcoiners, dancing in end zone. I think that my channel, I have the biggest litmus test ever. I have a million subscribers on YouTube. Some of my videos get hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views. Some don't get that many. but it is what it is. When I bring up Bitcoin,

it's weird because a lot of people, they like, know, and trust me. I've never shilled anything on YouTube. I'm not some core seller. I'm not some, you know, shit coiner. So when I started talking about Bitcoin, the initial pushback was like, dude, I followed you for years.

I got to unfollow you. What are you, you know, shilling this for? But then as time goes on, I get less of those comments, which is good. And then I always get the refreshing comment of like, oh, dude, you completely changed my life. I read the Bitcoin standard, layered money, you know, inventing Bitcoin.

bullish case for Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And some people finally start to get it. And once you see it, it can't be unseen. But I will say that most of my audience is still, you know, quote unquote normies. And I mean that in the most endearing way. But they still don't get it, dude. I still think Bitcoiners, here's my litmus test. If I'm at a bar, say there's 100 people at a bar or restaurant or I'm at a sporting event,

there's 30,000 people in the stadium. I mean, realistically, how many people really understand Bitcoin? Half a percent, one percent? Maybe. Maybe. Everybody knows the name and some people have even bought it. But the people that understand what they bought that they weren't just, you know, jumping in on the bandwagon like 2021 there is so few and far between. If I were to ask like, you know, how is the 21 million supply cap enforced or like what is the difficulty adjustment? No one's going to have an answer for that. I rarely find anybody and it's usually only at meetups or certain kind of events too.

And even even jumping back to your earlier point about like they were forced to be investors, I think one of the biggest issues, and it sounds like this is still, even in your audience on YouTube here, is that people still, and surprisingly so, because I thought that the COVID inflation would have been kind of that kind of straw that broke the camel's back. But I think most people still don't know or haven't identified the root cause of the problem or even see necessarily the problem as it is. Yeah, 100%. And my favorite meme, I'm kind of a dick on Twitter, to be honest. I don't take myself too seriously. I'm not trying to build a brand or just myself. My favorite meme is, did you catch the game last night? I've been using that meme for like three, four years now. And it's so true, man. It's like sometimes I just get on these rants and just type out like three paragraphs and

then just end it with, did you catch the game last night? And it's not effective, but it helps me cope, I guess. Yes, it's very cathartic at least. It helps us continue on in this journey and keep pushing forward. Yeah. When do you think, so I guess the reason I brought that up is, you know, maybe 1% of the population really understanding, you know, difficulty adjustment, things like that. When is that going to change?

Is it ever going to change? I don't know. I've kind of reached a point where things have gone away that I would have never anticipated. So the fact that both the U.S. states and the U.S. federal government is considering like a Bitcoin reserve, I thought we'd already be past the early phases of adoption. Like I didn't think that the U.S. government would front run most of the population. I figured it would be very much so kind of bottom up and more people are adopting and they go, okay, this is politically favorable. Now we've got to go in that vein. And so it's almost, I think, at the point where, and I think part of the issue is financial. nihilism, particularly for like the millennial generation and younger too. They feel like there's no chance that they could possibly get ahead. Like I've said this before as well too that it's funny and I'm going on a bit of a tangent, but I'll talk to some friends not involved in Bitcoin. And I'll try to explain to them like, dude, you can get like 30% compounded annual growth, just start saving in this. It could be unbelievably powerful and helpful in your life. And for me, it was a big source of kind of hope and inspiration. And they look at me like I'm crazy. Like that doesn't help me. That doesn't

fix my financial situation, which is why I was so excited about this conversation, is they look, it's like, if I don't put $1,000 in and it goes to a million, like, it doesn't help me. It doesn't move the needle. I can't do anything. And then on the other side, if I go talk to financial professionals, people in, you know, industry, and I say, you know, you're looking at like 30% compounded annual growth, and I'm downplaying it. I mean, we're lower right now, but even just in historical terms. And they think I'm crazy.

Like, there's no way. That's a bubble. That's a tulip. You can't get that kind of return consistently. It doesn't make sense. And so I have both sides of the camp thinking that it's almost too good to be true. And they don't ever want to further explore or kind of move into. to it. And so where I would have thought it would have come from a source of pain, high inflation,

things like this as well. And I think it may be will in other countries. I do see a lot of places probably transitioning to the USD kind of in the interim and then maybe starting to normalize Bitcoin, especially with things like tether on Bitcoin on lightning rails coming down the pipes as well too. But I thought it would be bottoms up, but I'm more starting to think that it'll just become from places of authority and just kind of normalized into their existing products. So people holding Bitcoin because micro strategy is in the QQQ, right? They're not even aware that that's part of their portfolio and just kind of makes its way in there. Or, you know, government has a strategic reserve.

And so, you know, whoever the favorable candidate of the day is, their audience, their followers will now be interested in kind of move in. And it's really surprised me in that sort of sense, the way the adoption is kind of at least progressing at the moment. Yeah, I think I have a video, it's maybe three, four years old now. Whenever that Squid Game token was coming out, I made a video, it was complete sense. that tire because to your point, these younger generations, they feel like they have to gamble to get ahead. It's all just the meme coin casino. It's sports betting. It's late stage empire, dude. It's, it's frustrating. Because I have two little girls. My girls are one and a half and three and a half. And it's like, do I even want to like raise them here? Like what is this? Like I'm going back to Europe,

dude. Like I don't know. I just feel like a lot of people, at least in the Western world, when it comes to societal issues like dating and finances and things like that, I really think it's going to become a nation of renters. I think a lot of people, you know, they're going to sit inside. It's going to be like Wally. Everyone's going to be overweight with the little thing strapped on their head in their little wheelchair. And it's like, you know, give me my, air drop me my UBI, CBDC, and let's call it a day, you know. It's just gotten so ridiculous. And it's it's it's why I love the the hope aspect of Bitcoin, right, but it looks forward to because it really feels like the the upcoming generations and the

younger generations, they've just had the legs kicked out from under them where the basic needs, Like their ability to just like have a relationship and a family, maybe have a home, maybe save for their future is just feels completely unobtainable. And to your point, you're right. They just give up and go with this hedonistic in the moment. Nileism, spend it play, gamble. It doesn't matter because they feel like they can't win. Which pivoting kind of off that then. Sorry. Yeah. No, no, no. It's wonderful. No, it brings up a very interesting kind of point. I remember listening to an interview that you were doing you talking about like. You got into this as quite a young man. You started investing and saving very early on, at least what it feels like. And you're kind of later. even late teens, early 20s. For somebody that maybe is familiar with Bitcoin or kind of new to the space or coming in, if you were going to advise somebody in the earlier stages of their careers, in the earlier stages of their life, where they maybe don't have those sort of responsibilities and obligations at this point in time, you're playing the game out over again.

You know about Bitcoin. It's here to stay. What kind of strategies or systems would you maybe offer as a suggestion that they should maybe proceed with? Yeah. So, I mean, education is power. knowledge is power. So I think... All right, guys, if you're new to Bitcoin, we've got something special for you. We're giving away copies of magic internet money by Jesse Berger, a must-read comprehensive

introduction to Bitcoin. It's our gift to help kickstart your learning journey. Just scan the QR code or click the link in the description down below to grab your copy now. If you look at your life as kind of like a flow chart, you know, from adolescence to teenage years to high school to college or whatever, whatever path you end up taking, you kind of got to look at your finances the same way. I think, again, I look at everything like a pie. Okay, it's my net worth. Every slice of that pie, whether it's 5% or 50%, it's just a slice of an asset class. And if that asset class goes to zero, I can still sleep well at night. Okay, that's my

general philosophy. But there is a flowchart. Say you have a Fiat job in your Fiat mining and your company matches 6%. They match 100% of 6%. Why wouldn't you want free Fiat, right? So there's It makes sense to do certain things in order. So I think there's a good, for the Fiat fans, there's a good channel called The Money Guys. They have their financial orders of operation. Dave Ramsey has his baby steps. I know his name is sacrilegious in the space. I get all that.

We'll convince him one day. We'll bring him around. I'm hopeful for him and Schiff. I'm not. I'm not. Their products, Schiff is a genius. If you're telling me he owns zero Bitcoin, you're an idiot. Yes, he's playing the heel.

He is 100% playing the heel. 100%. And his son's saying, I sold it. Yeah, bullshit. I saw his son at the Bitcoin conference in 2021 in Miami. Like, yeah, okay. So anyway, that's just my theory. But anyway, I think they're great marketers. And Dave will never change. He's a product. Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Oh, he's 100% product of the Fiat games. But the thing is, his get out of debt advice is a good foundation. I know it makes no sense for Bitcoiners to hear that. But I genuinely believe that because when you don't have debt, you're not forced to do anything you don't want to do. Your boss gives you shit. Hey, I got a few Bitcoin in the bank or in my cold storage and I have no debt. Go screw yourself, right? It's like that scene from the gambler. You know, get a couple million by the, you know, shitbox Japanese cars. It's never going to break.

Get a 25 year roof, pay up your house. And, you know, now you have FU money, right? That's exactly right. So that's kind of where I, you never want to manage your finances from a position of not power, but a position of having to ask someone else for permission. I hope I get this job. I hope my Bitcoin goes up. I hope this happens.

That's not a strategy. You can only control the amount of risk you take on. And you do that with thinking in percentages. Hey, 5% of my portfolio is 100% speculative investments. This is solid. This is solid. You know, let me live my life. Right.

And I think what most Bitcoiners, they won't tell you this, but a lot of them are hoping for fiat gains, right? A lot of them are saying, I'm in it for the tech. I'm in it for the freedom. I'm a libertarian. Yeah, bullshit, dude. You want that to go to a million dollars of coin just like anyone else. I think there's some people like that, but the vast majority, they want it to,

they want number to go up, okay? Because if they wanted to change the world, they would have done that in some other way. They would have done it politically. They would have done, you know, they would have become a political activist. They would have done something, right, other than just go to their fiat job and just sulk, right? So I think Bitcoin does suck money out of the system. It does take money away from the Federal Reserve. It does take capital away from, you know, the vanguard, the black rocks, this and that.

And then the other thing that frustrates me is, is that when people are saying Bitcoin is now a risk off asset, okay? Listen to the words coming out of these people's mouths because Larry Fink said so at Davos. He said it's a risk off asset. Are you people this stupid? They make money off of assets under management. They want you to buy their product. Why would he talk shit about his own product? So people, they're just, they want to hear what they want to hear.

they're not objective thinkers. This is what pisses me off. So when I talk about hubris and celebrating too early and dancing in the end zone, this is what I'm talking about. So at the end of the day, to make this coherent and not sound like I'm just ranting, is that you need to take care of your own financial house first. There is no magic pill, but Bitcoin is the closest thing to a magic pill we have in this fiat world. Now, it's funny, even when you were going on, because you're basically talking about the ability to say no, right? It's the ability to say no. And with everything that we just went through with COVID and people getting pressure from their employers and everything as well, too. You don't want to be in that position again because I'm hard pressed to

think that there won't be some other emergency down the line where they're forcing you to comply. And if you're completely, who do you say it, like financially vulnerable, you don't have the ability even to stand up on your principal. So if you are here for, for, you know, the libertarian values, if you do want to push these ideas forward, you have to have the ability to stand on your own. And if you're completely dependent on your current employer and you have these large piles of liabilities, you're kind of screwed. 100%. And that's not to say. I like, look, my parents are immigrants, dude. I grew up middle class in Cleveland, Ohio.

Okay, I'm not some Silverspoon kid. The thing is, is that we, especially as Gen Z, like all of us in this call are a little bit older. Congratulations, Nathan. Hopefully, your birth of your child and everything, thank God. Any minute now, the wife is so unbelievably uncomfortable. Yeah, I got the four, the two, and the other one showing up any day now. It could be interrupted on this call. Yeah, but from a Gen Z standpoint, this is what I'm trying to say.

So I had someone comment on one of my posts the other day. day. It was about, like, paying off a house or something. I can't remember. And he's saying, like, dude, I literally live in my parents' basement. I'm Gen Z. The system is broken, this, this and this. And I just responded with like, dude, you can't be a victim. So my response to him was like, dude, you still have to figure stuff out. You still have to be a man. You still have to provide. You still have to. That's why I feel like a lot of people are disenfranchised, especially when it comes from childbearing perspective and extending their bloodlines and their families. Like, people aren't going to have kids, right? And then what happens? Demographics are destiny. Look at Japan.

Look at all the older countries. Look at China with their one child policy, right? So all I'm trying to say in this like incoherent rant is that you still need to live in the real world and you still need to provide value and you still need to have a low time preference and take care of your financial house first. It's like the analogy with the oxygen mask on the plane. What do you do? You put the oxygen mask on first. Then you help your wife, your kids, your neighbor or whatever. So you can only be responsible for yourself, at least in this society that we live in.

Marco, I'm an actor and an only child. I always think of myself first. Perfect. You were saying earlier, Marco, about, you know, seeing people online, trying to sell you something, you know, make a quick buck. Hey, these are the five tips. You'll be a millionaire. And I watched some of your videos before it went on here. And I like to think that I'm pretty good at sniffing out bull.

And I think Nathan is pretty good about that, too. And you didn't strike me as that type of person at all. And you haven't struck me like that. this call. And, you know, so much of our Bitcoin conversations are obviously centered around money. You know, we come back to, you know, fix the money, fix the world. But it's so funny, so many of the Bitcoin people I meet, money in a certain way is the last thing on their mind. And Nathan and I were talking before we did this call, how money is just a means to an end. I know there are some people the world who will accumulate it almost as a competition, like beating the person next door.

I have more than you. But for me, it's never been there. I don't think it's that way for Nathan either. I don't think that's, it's that way for you. So all the talk about money, what is it that drives you, though? You seem very kind and very interested in genuinely trying to help other people. I know you're somebody who's interested in charities. I haven't taken the time to learn about what kind of charities you're interested in. But what are the things that drives you that makes you want to have the money so you can do the meaningful things in life? Oh, that's a great question.

Here's the other thing. I think that when people talk about having the one chair and driving the car with 300,000 miles and doing all the those things, I think that's admirable and respectable, but you can't turn into a miser just to accumulate more. You need to understand why am I accumulating more? Why am I accumulating US dollars? Why am I accumulating Bitcoin? Why am I even doing this, right? So for me, it's just going back to the oxygen mask analogy. I don't want to be beholden to anyone else, and I want to be able to accumulate this, whether it's fiat or enough Bitcoin to where I know I can secure quote unquote retirement. And when I say retirement, it just allows me to do things without having to be

compensated for it, if that makes sense. So whether that's volunteering at my church, whether it's giving back, whether that's, you know, helping someone as a mentor, right? You can't, you don't have all the time in the world if you are at a job from Monday through Friday, 8 to 5, right? So I think for me, it's kind of just the, uh, the escape parachute or just knowing that I have this, this ability, these options. All money is is freedom units. That's all it is. It's freedom units. It's not, I'm not trying to become a politician or, you know, outdo someone else or out compete or drive a nicer car. It's just to have the freedom units to be able to do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. And for me, at this stage of my life, I have two little girls.

I enjoy coaching their soccer. Not the one and a half year old. She's, that's just running around grabbing the ball. Yeah, exactly. But the three and a half year old, it's unbelievable how fast they grow up. You guys know this. So I just want to be able to spend time with my kids. Man, I've worked in traditional finance. I worked in commercial real estate capital markets. I've seen people that work from Sunday through Friday night, they have no lives. Their kids don't even know who they are. And that's not the life that I'm trying to create for myself. No, I think that's wonderful. I think it's very admirable, right? I think it is important, too, to remember that, like, you have to, if you have the why, you can bear anyhow too, but you need to have that why, understand why you're

doing these things, why you're being driven. And if you, if you're not aware, it's a time for kind of self-reflection and introspection, like really prioritize. Because I think if you know where you want I go, then setting up the path makes a lot more sense and it's a lot easier to do. Going down a completely different rabbit hole and just bouncing off that wonderful sentiment, too. I'd be hard press if I didn't ask because I was kind of curious came up earlier too. Now, you might not have any insight on this, so it could just be a shot in the dark. But we talked about the state of commercial real estate back in 2008 and zero interest rate policy as well too.

I'm just kind of curious if you have any insight or thoughts about where we currently are and Are those kind of things back on the table at some point in time or how you see things progressing? Maybe things are doing really well. I see both on Twitter and I have no idea how to discern who's right, who's wrong. Yeah, it's very dependent on interest rates, as we all know. So I think ZERP, it created a lot of cowboys. So a lot of people with very little operational experience, they're out with funds. They're creating huge syndications, collecting money from the dentist, the doctor,

the people that, you know, aren't very, I don't know, financially savvy, I guess is the lightest way to put it. And they're just pulling this money together, buying deep. deals with adjustable rate mortgages, you know, the balloon payment comes due. And guess what? Rates aren't at ZERP levels. They're much higher. So, yeah, last couple years have been tough just because of increased interest rates like crazy coming from SERP, right? Yeah, they got way higher than I thought they ever could without breaking something. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's insane. So I don't know, I don't work in the industry anymore. So I don't know the exact, I don't have my finger on the exact pulse, but I sign up to a lot of newsletters and stuff.

but there are a lot of distressed sales coming in the pipeline, especially for bigger stuff. And a lot of them seem to be in urban centers. I'm talking like, you know, huge, famous hotels, you know, big office buildings. The group that I worked with, we were kind of like fix and flippers, but for commercial. So instead of fixing and flipping a house, we would do it on a much larger scale. So we would acquire an underperforming, let's say, office building, fix it all up, market it a little bit different, work with the best brokers in the market and get much higher per square foot dollars, thus increasing the net operating income, which is EBITDA, earnings before interest taxes,

depreciation, amortization. Of course, I knew what that meant. Yeah. Thank you, Gary, the actor. Yeah, you just, you increased the value of the property significantly. Number of. So anyway, with all that being said, we actually got rid of all of our office space and went into senior living.

So as I was on my way out of the industry, they transitioned completely into senior living, which was a genius move because office got decimated during COVID because everyone was working from home. And all these companies had these huge office leases with, you know, no one working there. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been, it's been pretty rough. Like even looking at like, for the little bits of information I pull from the Canadian real estate market here, too, looking at Vancouver and Toronto into like, oh, Toronto's insane, dude. It's, it just looks. It's Canada never got the correction in 2008. We kind of just kind of kept putting along. And the talking about monetary premium. The monetary premium on these houses is ridiculous. And it's just,

Vancouver. Sorry interrupt, Nathan. That's just the place for Chinese millionaires to park their money. It's the same thing as Manhattan, right? They're getting it out of Russia, out of China. Look at London. London is just the Russian proxy for money parking. That's all it is. I didn't. I had no idea about London. Oh, yeah. London is not Anglo-Saxon. Let's you say that. Yeah, okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Gary, any questions or thoughts on your mind, buddy? You know, one of the things that we say at Bitcoin mentor, you know, where Nathan and I and many of great people like Mike and Ben, BTC sessions, just try to help people out. Technically speaking, how do I self-custody? How do I, you know, get a hard wallet or a hot wallet, cold wallet,

and figure out how to do an exchange. One of the things we say is that ideally in the future, our business won't exist. Like our dream is that the technology will get so good and people will get so good at it that you won't need us anymore. It'll be just like turning on a light and there you have your Bitcoin and no need for us, which, you know, is great. We want that. We want to help people and have a world where it's just so simple if Bitcoin if slash when becomes this global currency where everybody's trading with it someday far in the future you know you mentioned earlier that doctors should be able to just be doctors you know teachers just be able to be teachers if you're building cars

you should be able to not everybody should have to have a side job as a financial expert do you envision what you do as kind of going by the wayside and they're not needing to be as much of a need for people to kind of, oh, I'll plant my money here and do this to beat inflation this day, but pull it back this day. You don't need the pullies and levers as much. Or do you think that will always exist? That's a great question, Gary. And my thoughts on this is that you can kind of distill what you just said into financial advisors not being needed anymore. That conversation has been going on for probably a couple decades now. The financial advising industry was a lot of it was buddy, buddy, buddy, country club kind of thing. then it graduated more into, hey, this is, I'm a financial advisor for Normies, right?

And I think that the general underlying public, they are starting to understand finance being a critical portion of their lives because they have to, kind of like to Nate's point, it's going to have to be a necessity at some point. I would still say 60% of the population, 70% of the population still has no clue about money. They just know that I get paid, I use my money to buy things, and that's it, right? Then if you want to go a layer deeper, think about Bitcoin. We talked about maybe 1% of the room even understands Bitcoin, right? So, again, that that meme cuts so deep that did you catch the game last night meme.

And that's not alluding that that's most of the population. It just, it covers a big portion of it. So maybe one day, you know, accounting will be simplified. I don't see that happening. Yeah. Yeah, a flat tax, right? A flat tax would be great, right? Yeah, right.

No tax optimistic, but we'll get that. Yeah. Is the IRS going to be a tax? abolished? I don't know. Is Ford Knox and have its gold audited? I don't know. Oh my God. Hey, quick, quick side bet. Do you think the gold is there? I'm just curious. Look at all the gold coming back from London.

They're making it there. Whether it is or it isn't, they're forcing it to be there. Because if it's not, it's the wizard of Oz. It's the Fugazi, right? There is some gold there's the actual question. What percentage is there of what they claim is there? Yeah, exactly. I mean, look at the pictures from Iraq and in Libya, you know? The dumpsters of bars? Like, oh, my. my God. Yeah. So to answer your question, Gary, I think that a lot of things are more complicated than they need to be. And what it does is it employs people. Look at the accounting industry, right? That could be AI'd away in five years, right? But it's still a human thing. Hey, I have these

trusts. I have these layers to my financial puzzle, my financial question, right? So I think that if anywhere, it's going to start with traditional finance. But I just think everyone's so deeply entrenched with 401ks and SEP IRAs and Roth IRAs and all the way. It's linked to their employment. So you guys are Nate's in Canada, Ben's in Canada. I'm not sure where you are, Gary. But in the United States. Yeah, Jersey.

Yeah. So I'm in Cleveland, bro. So your existence, the United States, is completely linked to your employment. What do I mean by this? Your 401K finally makes sense to retire after you've been investing in it for 30, 35 years. When you're 65, your health insurance, it's linked to your employment. It's all designed for you to be working. Because if you're not, if you're an entrepreneur like myself,

you're going to be paying out the ear for health insurance. Yep, exactly. Oh, I know. A lot of it is linked to employment is what I'm trying to say. So do I think those things will go away? Not in the near future, not the way that I see it. No, fair enough. That's fair enough.

I wanted to ask too, before we kind of know I want to be respectful of your time as well, too. Is there anything maybe not Bitcoin related? So I know we mentioned like the Bitcoin layer, sorry, layered money by Nick Batia and a few other books there earlier as well too. Is there any finance books or articles or things that you find really helpful or a good resource to give people that are starting to think about the stuff and maybe plan for the future as well too? Yeah, absolutely. So if someone wants to build a traditional index fund portfolio, so a lot of people make fun of it, I have this satirical post of the CFA, you know, wearing the Patagonia vests. And I purposely wear Patagonia vests in my videos just to trigger all the Bitcoiners. I do it up purpose. people love it. They're like, oh. So anyway, I love it, dude. If you want to build, if you legitimately want to build a, you know, low-cost index fund portfolio, I would read the Bogelhead's Guide to

Investing. Bogelhead is Jack Bogel. He's the founder of Vanguard. Um, okay. Yep. Bogelhead's guide to investing. I would definitely read just the classics. You have the millionaire next door. Um, that's a great book talking about how the guy living next to you with the Toyota Crolla really is a millionaire and the guy with the G-wagon, his driveway is just, you know, full of shit and full of debt, right? So millionaire next door, Boglehead's Guide to Investing. And then if there's any real estate, curious people watching this, you know, always rich dad, poor dad. I don't know how people feel about Kiyosaki. But Rich Dad Poor Dad is a legendary book. So there's way deeper stuff that, you know, I can tell you guys, but I think for the basic personal finance normie stuff, those are three

great books. And also the richest man in Babylon. The richest man in Babylon is a great great book. No, it's fantastic. Those are wonderful recommendations. Yeah, I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I thought it was just a wonderful framework on looking at cash flow as well, too. It's a great book. 100%. Do you think Vanguard is ever going to have a Bitcoin ETF? I think they would need a new CEO to do that because if you remember when they said, like, hey, you know, we're not going to go with this. You know, I just think that they're pandering to their client, right? It's like me when I make Bitcoin videos on my channel, you know, people are like, what are you doing?

You just don't get it, right? You're the Bitcoin guy. You're the finance guy. What are you doing here, Marco? Yeah, and I've been telling them like, dude, I just have your best interest in hand. Like, why would I not tell you about this best form of money ever created, you know? It's coming from a place of love. Wonderful, wonderful.

Well, thank you so much, sir. Please tell me, where can people go and find your content? Check out your stuff. Where should we be directing them to? Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Sorry if I was a little bit aggressive in the beginning. Not at all. No, you're just shedding the veil and letting your,

your toxic Bitcoin are come forward and we'd love that. We need that. Thank you. Thank you. So the channel is called Marco Whiteboard Finance. If you want to find me on Twitter, it's Whiteboard Finn, F-I-N, or sorry, X. And then Instagram is Whiteboard Finance. And then those are my only accounts.

I won't reach out to you with a trading group. I do have a community called Whiteboard Finance University, which is definitely a ton of value for the money, but I don't want to self-promote. It's just if you go down my rabbit hole of my channel, you guys will naturally find it. I just followed you on Twitter. Awesome. Perfect. You'll be disappointed. Perfect.

Perfect. Love it. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Marco. There's been a fantastic conversation. Really appreciate it. And we'll hopefully talk to you again soon. Awesome. Thanks for having you guys. Thanks, man. If you enjoyed this video, please like, share, and subscribe.