BTC Sessions - EXPOSING What You Don’t know About Saylor & Fink’s RECENT Bitcoin Predictions | Marko, Dr Ken Berry

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

We’re exposing what you don’t know about Saylor and Fink’s recent Bitcoin predictions — with insights from Marko and Dr. Ken Berry. This could change how you see Bitcoin’s future and the power players behind it.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/KenDBerryMDhttps://x.com/WhiteBoardFinhttps://x.com/ProofOfMoneyFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCp#btc #bitcoin #crypto

In the same week that Larry Fink dropped a bombshell declaring Bitcoin could replace the U.S. dollar as the global reserve currency, Michael Saler also made a shocking $500 trillion Bitcoin prediction. Sailor is saying that Bitcoin could potentially reach $23.8 million a coin if you math it out. But at the same time, he's maintaining the idea that it isn't a threat to the dollar. So is Fink admitting what Sailor won't? I mean, if Bitcoin actually hits a $500 trillion market cap, do we really think that Bitcoin wouldn't dethrone the U.S. dollar, which is currently $38 trillion in size?

Well, today I've reached out to, of course, a YouTube finance expert, Mr. Marco from Whiteboard Finance, as well as Dr. Ken Berry and Terrence Michael to discuss all of this and much more. But first, before we break down this little 27-page letter from Mr. Larry Fink, let's play this new sailor clip that broke the internet this week. I'll get my screen up right now. Forgive me for my slow movement. Here we go. Let's take a listen at what he had to say. Dollars of capital are flowing into the network. It's going to go from $2 billion to $20 billion to $200 billion to $2 trillion to $20 trillion to $200,000. And when it gets to $200 trillion, it'll chop along and plus 20% to eventually $300, $400, $500,000.

And where is that capital going to come from? Where is that capital going to come from? We're going to take a look also at what Larry Fink had to say in his letter. This is page 20 of the Larry Fink annual chairman's letter. and he said, it says here titled, Can Bitcoin Eat Away at the U.S. reserve status? The U.S. has benefited from the dollar serving as the world's reserve currency for decades, but that's not guaranteed to last forever. The national debt has grown at three times the pace of GDP since Times Square's debt clock started ticking in 1989.

This year, interest payments will surpass $952 billion exceeding defense spending by 2030 mandatory government spending and debt service will consume all federal revenue, creating a permanent deficit. If the U.S. doesn't get its debt under control, its deficits keep ballooning, America risks losing that position to digital assets like Bitcoin. So, with that said, you are not going to want to miss this conversation. It's going to be an absolute blast. Stay tuned. Smash that like button. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. All right. I want to welcome to the stage, Dr. Ken Berry, Terrence, Michael, and Marco from Whiteboard Finance gentlemen. Thank you so, so much for being here. And I'm just

going to tee you guys up with kind of what I led with. Larry Fink dropped this 27-page letter to investors this week, basically saying like the U.S. has got to get this shit together. Otherwise, you know, it's kind of inevitable what he's looking at. But in the same breath, you have Michael Saylor saying the growth of the value of Bitcoin is effectively unlimited, is more or less what he's saying. But he also regularly says that it's not a threat to the U.S. dollar, that they can coincide. So where's the disconnect? What's your guys' take? on this whoever wants to dive in uh i'll jump in unless you're playing around of i feel like we're playing around of one of these things does not belong let's go can and then let's go terence

i i think that um in my years of recommending a ketogenic and a carnivore diet to people when i talk to physicians initially the facial expressions they make when i say your patient's health will improve if they eat only meat. They're like, what the hell? What? That's so outside of Overton's window. How dare you even say that in polite conversation? I see these same facial expressions on financial advisors' faces these days and on people

who are anti-Bitcoin. I see the same exact facial expressions when you say things like Sailor saying about Bitcoin. When you say things like Fink, you kind of implied about Bitcoin, people's faces break a little bit. They're like, how could you even say that in rational society? This makes no sense. And that's the face that I first see. But then I see as they start to wrap their head around it and actually look up some studies and do some research, they start to give it the slow noise. Like, well, maybe. And then before you know it, that doctor's eating a carnivore diet. I've seen this before. I've seen this play out before, and I think that we're going to see exactly this same thing in the Bitcoin space as months go forward.

Terrence, I want to hear your thoughts as well here. Yeah. So on Larry Fink, I mean, look, I think every sovereign nation is always going to want to hang on to their own fiat currency. They're never, ever going to want to give up those privileges. But as far as a tradable asset, something neutral that we can all agree on, you know, ever since COVID, I think it started in COVID, but then also in 22, in the Ukraine war, other countries have seen sort of put us on notice with the dollar. When we confiscated, you know, Russia's 630 billion plus in our banks, we cut them off the SWIFT system. For the first time ever, you know, we've, you know, after Bretton Woods and then the petro dollar

system, we have had the global reserve currency status. We've had the dollar dominance. And in exchange for the world taking our dollars, you know, we basically have been exporting our dollars and we're going to buy all of their goods. But the problem with that, you know, is the Triffin's dilemma, where we supply everyone with these dollars. But in exchange for that, we lose, we lose out. You know, we've hollowed out our middle class. We don't have our manufacturing.

We're no longer exporting anything other than the dollar that we make. Well, these other countries, when they trade, they know we can just print the dollar. So, like, you know, after 2020, after 2022, Russia, China, a lot of the Middle East, a lot of the OPEC countries, they all started trading in their own currencies. for the first time ever. So they basically violated the petrodollary agreement. We lost that petro dollar agreement that we've enjoyed, you know, since 72, 73. And I think now as more of them look, some of them want to make their own digital currencies like Bricks has talked about that. But the more and more you look, eventually you're going to migrate and you're going to converge into Bitcoin because what else can be more

fair and neutral and public. And when they see that no other country can favor themselves over that, well, I think that that's where it's all going to go. Are we going to Sailor now or no? We go back to Marco and then... Let's let's let Marco get a word in here. He's so patiently sitting there in the corner. So Mark, I want to hear from you, but we can dig. I want to take a dig a little bit at Sailor's position too.

But, Margo, you go first. Yeah, so real quick. So I hate to start the podcast episode with this, but I'm typically more on the side of he's all about assets under management. So what is he going to say? Bitcoin's terrible. Don't buy my ETF, right? So he's a salesman at the end of the day. My biggest concern with all these ETFs, I mentioned it on the previous podcast with Nathan. I think the biggest threat, in my opinion, is not quantum computing. It's not any of the things that we've been talking about since basically 2009. It's really the congregation of Coinbase being the custodian to like nine out of 11 of these ETFs. So I made a meme maybe like a year ago when these things got approved.

It's like the Trojan horse. And you had Brian Armstrong and Gary Gensler is the head of the Trojan horse. Then you have all the plebs as the people underneath, you know, the Spartans or whatever. So I don't know. I just think that I don't want to sound negative and start the podcast that way because this is why we're bullish. And I will get to why I'm bullish. But at the end of the day, Larry Fink is a salesperson. Of course, he's going to speak positively about it.

That's a great point. And with his ETF, you know, over 50 billion, he's broken every record on Wall Street. So you're right, Marco. It's a good assessment. Yeah, yeah. Tarynx, it sounded like you had, you wanted to continue on with sailors' line of thought there. What did you want to peg in there? Well, I just thought it was interesting because we all know, you know, he said that Bitcoin's going to go to $13 million in 21 years. So he said this last year in 2024.

So by 2045, he's saying we're going to hit $13 million. And everyone was like, what? This just sounds crazy right now. We're sitting in the 80s. But, you know, that's based on a pretty conservative kegher of only. 29% right and we've really been doing anywhere between 40 to 60% depending on when you as how far back you want to go so the funny thing is when he says a 500 trillion market cap he is talking about what you mentioned at the top bend 23.8 million per coin and here's the funny thing and what I think is so cool

about compound interest 13 trillion he said at 2045 we reached 23.8 million just a year later 1.7 years later so At the end of 2046, we hit his 500 trillion market cap or 23.8 million a coin. That's kind of being conservative. It's just, it blows my mind when I did the figures. Yeah, it's, it's, again, when you look back at sentiment in cycles prior, it's very much the same. You know, it's the same kind of, I'll never, you know, 10,000 was a pie in the sky number that we'd never attain. and now it's like we feel down in the dumps because we're not currently above 100k. And had you told me, you know, back in 2014, 2015, that all of us would feel kind of crappy

about 82, 83, 84K, I would have laughed in your face. Like, that's unbelievable. But people are very, very in their emotions, high time preference. And so, you know, we all preach the low time preference, but as soon as it's, we experience one price point and it's below that, it's, oh, come on, what's going on? But I think, I think it's worthwhile reflecting on how prior cycles have also felt. I remember the 2017 cycle. The breaks in between the spikes felt like decades. we would spike and we'd go from, you know, the beginning of the year, 1,000 to like 3,000

or whatever it was, and then we dropped to 4,000 and whatever, we dropped off for a while and we just kind of crab walked for months. And that felt like an eternity. But then it's exciting again because, you know, we're getting up close to 10K and then we drop again. And then that sudden doubling the 10 to 20 happened in like a couple of weeks. And that ripped faces off. didn't know what to do. I didn't. I had extreme anxiety at the time. I just didn't know how to

handle that kind of a change, especially because at the time I was coming from a place of not much disposable income to, oh, I'm like, I'm okay right now. And so it's like a little bit of I was on edge because is this suddenly going to end? And so I think people forget what it feels like in prior cycles. And I think that if you've never been through a cycle, you don't really know what to expect. And so here we are. I don't think that we've seen the end of this cycle. I think there will be more. And I don't know. I'm strapping in for the ride. Nothing could surprise me at this point. I don't know. Was that your first epoch, Ben, epoch three in 2017-ish? Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of, I started this channel actually in 2016. And yeah. And so I, but like my first experience,

getting Bitcoin was a few weeks before Mount Gox. So basically my first experience with Bitcoin was nothing but pain. I'm essentially the bane of Bitcoin. All I knew was bear market. I was born into the bear market. But it helped me kind of weather that. When the first experience you have is 80% down, you can kind of manage from then on. Well, fortunately, you avoided all coins and piled all in in 2016, so you're good to go.

That's amazing. We're all super proud of you. Yeah, I definitely preempted Bitcoin to maximalism, which didn't really exist at that point. No, I definitely, I had my idiocy. And unfortunately back then, because there was no good content into why Bitcoin was different. And that line of thinking hadn't really been fleshed out in a well-reasoned manner. The Bitcoin standard wasn't written and released until 2018. A lot of people forget that.

And so now, if you can get on the right track, if you can get plugged into the right information, then it's just contrast and compare the narratives. And you see that one holds up consistently over time, and the others are just throwing darts out of wall to seeing what will hit. And it's very easy to kind of coalesce on the signal once you're led to it, I think. Yeah, to your point of being born in the darkness or born in the bear market, I graduated. I was in the middle of getting my finance degree in 0708, so I was a sophomore.

So graduated in December of 2010 when unemployment was 11%. Okay, I had a finance degree, had to sell cars, watch zeitgeist in like 0708, fractional reserve banking, federal reserve, Jekyll from, you know, a creature from Jekyll Island, all that stuff. And I always tell everyone I was a bitcoiner before Bitcoin was even created, right? All this stuff's happening to me in 06, 07, 08, and then in 2009, you know, Bitcoin gets created with, you know, the Genesis block. And I just, it just makes sense, you know, once you see it, it can't be unseen. It's like discovering, you know, fire, if you will.

Did any of you guys get on the, there's a series, Mike Maloney, the hidden secrets of money? I just, I went through that like I was on crack. I couldn't put those down as, as, and that was all. also getting into Bitcoin at that time. And it was like, yes, the money is completely wrong. So anyways, I digress. Gentlemen, we're going to dive into the meat of the show here. And of course, this show is, why are we bullish? All of you have, I'm sure, a multitude of reasons for being bullish, but we're going to try and hone in on a few of them. And so I'm going to go to the first of you. Ken, you're right beside me. So I'm going to head to you first. And simple question.

everybody's going to get. Why are you bullish? I'm bullish for many reasons. I guess my latest reason is that even though over the last two days, the stock market has tanked pretty badly, but my Bitcoin balance and my Bitcoin price still looks good. Unlike you guys, I didn't, I've only owned Bitcoin for about 12 months, which I'm embarrassed to admit that because I have watched all of the shows, the zeitgeist, the unsound money. I read Creature from Jekyll Island back 20 years ago, probably, but I was all about gold and silver. I knew the fiat money was crap.

I knew it was ultimately going to crash, but I was from that error that, okay, you don't want fiat money, you won't gold and silver. And so I was busy in that sphere. And a couple of years ago, one of my good friends, it's like, dude, how much Bitcoin do you have? I'm like, I don't really have any. I get it, sort of, but I don't really have any because, you know, gold is real. I've got it here.

It's in my pocket. And Bitcoin's kind of felt Fugazi at that point because it was electronic. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I get the argument, but I can't see it all the way through. and then reading a couple of books, Safedine's book and several others, it clicked and I was able to fully, for the first time,

wrap my head completely around it. And for a minute, for me, that felt like Bitcoin is digital gold. That's what helped me take that step and go, oh, okay, I got it. That makes sense.

Okay, I can get it now. And so I initially got on, I think Coinbase and bought some Ethereum and bought some Bitcoin. And then my friend proceeded to yell at me again. Why are you buying Ethereum? That's stupid. Sell that and buy Bitcoin immediately.

And also get the hell off Coinbase. What are you doing? And so it's been a straight up learning curve for me. But just looking over here, looking at the markets on the ticker and then looking at the Bitcoin price, I'm like, that sure looks like a decoupling to me. That sure looks like that Bitcoin doesn't give a damn what's happening in the markets right now. And that makes me feel quite bullish.

I first I want to say Ken whoever this friend is is a really good friend you should keep that person around and then I did have a quick question so you know the coming from a sound money perspective and kind of understanding why precious metals had had taken that that mantle and you mentioned that the physicality of of the gold or the silver or whatever, was kind of the hurdle to get over. And that understanding Bitcoin was digital gold helped you get over that. What about that leap helped you get over that other than, I understand that, okay, this is a digitized version of gold. But was there something technical in there that helped you understand that a digital version of cold could even be possible?

Was there some sort of something that clicked there? Yeah, and I forget which book, if it was Safedine's book or one of the other books, maybe Lynn's book touches on it. But I, you know, you can, the internet might get turned off. And many people who are into gold as a store value are preppers, right? They're doomers, their shit hit the fanners. And so it's not completely outside of their realm of possibility. that the power could go off, right?

And so then that was one of my remaining hangups, not that I think that the, you know, I mean, the grid could collapse, who knows? But I think that when I read how many nodes there are in how many different countries and how many different people are basically shepherding this thing and watching this thing 24-7 and protecting Bitcoin with their nodes

and with their votes and with their actions, it was like, yeah, as long as the light stay on, Bitcoin is going to be digital gold. You know, barring outright, multi-continent thermonuclear destruction,

Bitcoin's going to be digital gold. And it was a day, I didn't realize the strength of the Bitcoin network. I think that was a big part of my lack of knowledge. When I fully grasp, this is the biggest network in the world, by far. Like there's nothing that even comes close,

the way I understand this, to being such a strong resilient network, that was a big move forward. And then I'm like, oh, okay. So basically it is digital gold, and I can carry it across the border, but it's infinitesimally small. Nobody can find my gold, right?

And then I'm like, yep, okay, I'm in. I'm going to get some. I think that was it when I realized the strength of the network, and just how resilient it's been, it's been attacked. People have tried to fork it and tried to mess it up, and it's just, it sales through. Just like I posted on Noster today,

one of my favorite things about Bitcoin is it literally doesn't give a shit what anybody says or does. I love that. That's perfect. I want to let Terrence or Marco, either one, hop in here, comment on what Ken's had to say. No, I think that's great. I personally didn't the the digital gold thing never worked for me because I don't own gold my family doesn't own gold.

I don't know anybody that owns gold. I know, you know, less than three to four percent of Gen Z and millennials these days even own gold. But I think it's great when people do. Obviously, we share the same views of the problem. We all agree on the problem and what hard money solves. To me, it's just weird that a lot of gold bugs don't want to get rid of a fax machine and say, hey, we've got PDF software. Like these candles are great, but you know what? Electricity is pretty fantastic.

But you got that, which is great, Ken. So I applaud you for coming in through that. That didn't work for me. I came in through a different thing, but I get it. Here's my differentiation between Bitcoiners and gold bugs. Gold bugs are negative about the future. Bitcoiners are positive about the future. That's what that's nice, Marco.

That's absolutely true. Yes, absolutely true. Most gold bugs are gold bugs because they think there's going to be some kind of societal collapse and therefore they need their goal to protect their wealth. And I love the positive upbeat difference in the Bitcoin community. It's like, no, man, we're going to the moon. We're going to Mars. What are you talking about? You got to have your Bitcoin to get there. I love that because that always bothered me about the gold community. It's like that everything was kind of prefaced on there's going to be something really bad that happens in the very near future.

and big corners are not like that and it's a breath of fresh air. Yeah, we have. Yeah, see, that's why I think, oh, go ahead, Margo. I think that's why the gold thing didn't work for me because it's like, you know, I don't want to envision this Mad Max Thunderdome world. And it's like, if that ever happens, it's like, you know, quite honestly, I'm going to go looking for my mommy. Like, I don't know that I'm going to run around with golden guns.

That's just not me. You're not going to be the, you know, you're not going to be leading the charge through the desert with your giant Mac truck with the guy on the guitar on the coin thrower now? Yeah, exactly. I'll be the trapeze artist from truck to truck. Mark, you go ahead. Yeah, I was just going to say we have a pretty strong local Bitcoin meetup here. We have about, I'd say, 50 to 75 members, and most of them are pretty active. And what we do is we actually try and get talking spots at gold conventions,

like coin conventions, a lot of older people are there. Obviously, demographic is definitely 60s, 70s, 80s. But some of them get it immediately, but I'd say seven out of 10 just don't. And the reason for that, in my opinion, is because think about it this way, you guys. Say we are now in our 60s, 70s, 80s, okay? We're all relatively similar age. Let's just say it's 30 years from now. And a better version of Bitcoin, I know that's sacrilegious, but just for the sake of argument, comes out, right?

Whether it's a coin, whether it's some new technology, whatever that thing may be, do you think us being Bitcoiners since 2010, 2015, 2020 are going to so easily give up our position on what Bitcoin is, you know. So I understand the whole, you know, dividing by one and, you know, inventing fire. I get all that stuff. But I understand where they're coming from. But to me, to your point, Terrence, it's just so obvious of why are you holding on to this fax machine when I'm showing you a much better version of the thing that you already believe in. So I think a little bit of it is just being set in your ways and stubbornness, to be quite honest. I think, again, to Ken's point in around the recognition of a digital version of gold,

I think the moment in and around that light bulb for me was kind of recognizing, well, gold was kind of our best option for a period of time. but the physicality was actually part of the downfall or the ability to rug pull, right? Because the physicality necessitated in terms of divisibility, in terms of portability, in terms of just general ease of transactions. It necessitated creating the abstraction of paper money and backing it with that. And as soon as you have that abstraction, that can be easily rug pulled, and it's also difficult in the interim to audit.

And so it lends itself to predatory, and it lends itself to the incentives that it creates. Hey, I can make a whole bunch more paper than there is gold. And as long as not everybody wants the gold at the same time, I'm golden for lack of a better term. And so I think that recognition of, hey, that made sense up to a point. And it also made sense why there were problems with it. And I'm not saying that Bitcoin with the UTXO model won't experience some of that because, you know, barring advances that we don't know yet that exist. You know, there can always be improvements that that can happen.

But what I'm saying is perhaps there's going to be a little bit of that. But the leaps and bounds that are afforded to us by being able to instantly audit at any. point. Now, whether or not we're doing that right now is basically a no in a lot of instances. But I think what will manifest over time is a mindset of if you are responsible for other people's money and you're not openly showing the addresses with the balances, then you're immediately brought into question. I think that ethos at some point in the future comes into reality. It's not there right now because we don't have that much of an ethos in fiat land as it is. But with cascading greater and greater rug pulls, people will realize it's not Bitcoin that's prone

to being stolen. Bitcoin is very efficient at pointing out when people are fucking around. And that's kind of the killer feature of Bitcoin, I think. Yeah, amen. Yeah, the killer app is self-custody, which speaks to that, you know, to self-custody your money for the first time ever. Yeah. Yeah, if you guys follow Sunny Poe on Twitter, he's the guy with the Leonardo DiCaprio Django, with the $100 bill avatar. He's the guy that uses credit cards and just keeps taking out 0% transfer balances and keeps pushing it all the way back. So I follow him for many years now. His whole thesis is that gold is doing so well because it can't be verified.

He's taking the exact opposite approach from Bitcoin. He's unintentionally the funniest person, the funniest bitcoinser that I follow. He's so funny without trying to be funny. But yeah, his whole thesis is like, yeah, you can't verify this stuff. How the hell do you even know? So that's why it's going up, right? I mean, we can talk about central banks and all that stuff. But yeah, let's get to the more other points.

Yeah. Well, I mean, again, Ken, I really enjoy hearing about people that have even recently kind of come into the Bitcoin realm and what that trigger point for them was, but also the fact that the learning curve after being introduced to it is so much quicker than it has been previously, just due to the fact that we get to stand on the shoulders of giants

that have educated those before us. And so it's just, I'm always astounded when I see somebody come in and just kind of not, like, somehow matrix their way around shit coins and all these, and like understand self-custy and then like actually act upon it, I think that kind of really speaks to the current crop of Bitcoiners

and the encouragement that they've provided in terms of, hey, like, here's some of the best practices. So, I mean, before we kind of do a rotation to the next topic, if you want to speak to that or anything that helped you along your journey in that understanding. I think one of the best things about the Bitcoin space is there are such good, references available where you know I have a hat I wear many different hats farmer doctor YouTuber now Bitcorner and in many spaces the kind of the literature that you have available in that is is sketchy at best but Bitcoin

really I mean has some excellent work I just finished the big print I've I've obviously read everything lens written and Safeddin and watched hours of Sailor. And so there's just, there's so much good quality information about Bitcoin. And I think just definitionally, Bitcoin is Bitcoin. It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't. And when you have somebody who's articulately explains that to you in a way that you can get it, it makes it makes your your your understanding of it and your belief in it almost bulletproof because I mean I think right now we've got some excellent teachers in the space uh that your channel

and then many many other people I watch Natalie a lot so many different people I'm watching that it's just like once you and my wife is like oh you watch another Bitcoin video I'm like yes yes I am but it's because you know you might hear you might hear um Safedine say it away, a little different from Sailor, that resonates. You're like, ah, now I get that point because I felt like it was a point, but I wasn't really sure. But now, yes, got it, 100% in stone. And I think Bitcoin is very fortunate, especially people coming now to Bitcoin, they're so fortunate to have these great authors and great speakers and great philosophers, really, Bitcoin philosophers.

to explain the why because, you know, when it all comes down to it, that's the, that's the last question is why, why, Bitcoin, why? And if somebody can answer that question from a philosophical standpoint for many people, that's it. That's the last straw. It's like, okay, how do I, how do I get a wallet? Yeah, that's absolutely dead on. And, uh, and I'll give you one thing before we go to break. Uh, don't worry about the wife situation. The trajectory is, um, annoying. followed by acceptance, followed by learning through osmosis. So all you really need to do is get her to a Bitcoin-related social event, and she'll meet a bunch of people that she actually probably enjoys,

and then it'll be good from there. That was my trajectory. Sessions is now through and through a Bitcoiner, and now she's moved on to not trusting the food system and everything. Yeah, things have really, really escalation. But nonetheless, gentlemen, we're going to take a quick break, a quick little shout out to sponsors of the show. And when we come back, Terrence, I'm going to go to you and find out why you are bullish.

So we'll see you guys in just a moment. If you're in the chat, please do smash that like button. If you're enjoying the conversation so far, these gents are awesome. And I can't wait to continue the combo. Bitcoin well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the U.S. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC Sessions to sign up today.

And you can share your own personalized referral link to earn commissions. DeBify is the best and easiest way to board. against your Bitcoin in a non-custodial way. Funds are held in a multi-sig escrow where you hold a key, and the platform allows for excellent hardware like the Cold Card Mark 4 and the Q. You have access to flexible conditions, the best rates, and institutional-grade liquidity.

If you're looking to make use of your capital, don't sell your Bitcoin, borrow against it. You can head over to debify.com to check them out, or simply scan it. All right, gents, we are back in. And really quick, before we continue on with Terrence, we're going to give away some sats. So I didn't give fair warning to the people in the chat. But pull out your lightning wallets right now.

What's going to happen is there's going to be a QR code on the screen in a moment. And whoever scans it first, the lightning wallet will snag the sats from everyone else. This is Bitcoin well, by the way. The way it works is you earn points when you sign up buy Bitcoin, refer friends. And every time you redeem those points, you have a chance to win. win up to a million sats. So we'll see how much it is this time around. I'm going to toss a coin in the well.

And again, whoever scans this first gets the sats. So 210 sats to whoever scans. Perfect. Thank you. That would be great. If whoever does get it, if you're in the chat, let us know. We love to hear it. And if you're curious about Bitcoin, well, you can check them out there in these show notes down below, of course.

But with that, gentlemen, we're going to. dive right back in and uh terence i'm volleying it to you same question oh time about time about brian bridgeer logan marco is gay this is blasphemy i can't i got a right now do i feel like that needs to be on the screen just so we can yeah let's put that on the screen no not that one something funny light you know we don't know about that we want the marco speculation here. I'm just kidding. I've nothing against me. Oh, Bitcoin Kendall never wins that game.

Does she show up every time? Dave did. So Dave. I'm going to send her some sets. Yeah, Dave, congrats. Kendall. You got to be quicker. We take no prisoners here.

You got to be quick there. Parents, I'm tossing it to you. Why are you bullish? Okay. So, I mean, there's so many reasons. But one reason that I've been thinking about, a lot lately is because I'm personally seen a strong migration from all the real estate bros into Bitcoin. So conversely to what Ken was talking about with gold, you know, we have obviously $9 trillion

of global wealth and about a third of that is in real estate. And most of that is real estate investment. So I'm not talking about all the people that want to have a house for their family. I'm talking about all the people that don't care and they don't want to be landlords. they don't want the taxes and the toilets and the trash and the tenants. And they think they want cash flow, but cash flow is really just a reward for illiquidity. And it pales in comparison to the appreciation of Bitcoin. And guess what? We have cash flow with Bitcoin.

It's called selling or spending some of your stats. And guess what? It's a capital gains tax. It's not an income tax. So even the taxes are much smaller. And of course, you don't have property taxes like you do with real estate. And the other thing that real estate bros say that, and I'm bringing these up because they're starting to understand in their minds, that they want the tangibility of real estate. But all the investors, they're not even visiting or even seeing their places if they're successful.

If they're Airbnbs, if they've got students, if they've got tenants, if it's a shopping mall storage units, they're not going there because they're occupied. It's only tangible when something breaks or when the sewer backs up, right? They're really just looking at a balance sheet, which is quite literally what Bitcoin is. And so if you talk to real estate people, you know, and I've talked to like Grant Cardone, for instance, of this, and he's moving over, you know, his brother, his twin brother, Gary Cardone has already moved almost all of his real estate over into Bitcoin. If you ask them to be honest with themselves, they will tell you they like acquiring real estate for the brag. They like the flex. But if really all you care about is what that's going to get you, if you care about the money aspect, you can take something that has way less friction like Bitcoin. I mean, it solves almost all of the problems. If you say in this column, here's all the great things I like about real estate investing,

income properties, and here's what I hate, it wipes off almost every single one on the side of the things that you hate. So I'm super, super bullish about that. That's how I came in. You know, after COVID, I sold almost all my properties. I owned a ton of commercial real estate. I flipped 12 houses. And I was real estate was my store of value.

You know, after working in Hollywood and doing movies and TV shows, I didn't know where to put that money and to make it sit, right, because we have these long hiatuses. And real estate was it. But I had to become a landlord. I had a second and a third job, you know, killing myself and, you know, scraping asbestos and all this stuff. And Bitcoin came along. It's like, I don't have to do that. And I think a lot of real estate people, and I meet all these people at real estate conferences, real estate meetups. I mean, you think the Bitcoin world has these things? The real estate, it's 100x that. And I've been to all of those. I've spoken at those. I know those people. And they're starting to realize, oh, I could just go straight to Bitcoin,

and just click and in any fraction. And I can just have a few sets. I don't have to be an accredited investor. I don't have to put a 20% down payment. And I get to appreciate the same with the rest of you. We're all in the same elevator going up this building with no top floor. So that's what I'm really bullish about is real estate bros starting to realize, oh, this is digital property.

It's a new zip code. It's in cyberspace. So that's my opinion. I am so happy you brought this up. There's a couple of guys. that fit this bill exactly. And so there's a couple guys in Toronto, Canada, and they have a podcast and they run a business,

and they're called Rockstar Real Estate. And they've been doing this for years. And then they got orange-pilled. And they realized, oh, my God, we only have a business because the money is broken and people must invest in property to have a hope of reaching retirement. Like this is what the money being broken is what's causing the real estate market to be insane.

And so they're actually, you've said, oh, you think we have these events? You should see the real estate guys. These guys are having an event next weekend that is fully sold out. I went to it last year and I spoke to the whole audience about Bitcoin. I did a live demo how to get Bixine, get into self-custody and everything. And I went with my company, Bitcoin mentor. We do like one-on-ones with people. We had a booth there.

We were swamped. The thing was shut down. People were tearing down that booths. There were still 30 people crowded around the Bitcoin booth wanting more information. And so I'm headed there next Friday. And I'm doing another talk there. And these guys, like, even the real estate guys themselves, they are they recognize that like okay we're having to shift gears here a little bit and like get

people on board with this idea but they're trying to shift people to bitcoin and so there's a great presentation that tom gave uh tom cardaza he gave it at the end of of the event last year and he literally just showed here's your portfolio with you know let's say you had some properties and how it did over the past however many few years. years, like four years, say. He's like, here's if you had just simply had, I think he said either five or 10% in Bitcoin. He's like, it's not even close, not even close. And like, if it had cratered, okay, you're down 5%.

Who cares? But look at the performance with just a minimal allocation versus what you're already doing. And so they're selling it so hard. So when you say bullish on real estate bros getting into Bitcoin, these guys, like, this is them. And like look at their guest list here. They've got like Lynn Alden. They've got what's the problem, Joe who created that. Yeah.

Again, they have so many Joey from Canadian Bitcoinsers podcast. They have Bitcoiners on here regularly. They've had Jeff Booth. There's Tomer. You know, like they, they are doing the work of getting this message out to all of the real estate people and trying to communicate, hey, money's broken. That's why this has worked. But this is probably going to work better.

And so they're eking them over. And man, that is bullish as hell. So I'll open it up to everybody else here. But I just wanted to sneak that in there. Yeah, Terence, you probably don't remember this. I actually screenshot at one of your tweets in my words. my video about a year ago. So I did a video about the Nakamoto portfolio, the one that Rafah Zegari made from Swan. So I basically call Bitcoin the monetary premium vacuum cleaner. So it's going to

suck up, you know, monetary premium from real estate, you know, gold, precious metals, you know, you name it. And basically, one of your tweets, I think it was when you actually sold some of your rental properties to go more into Bitcoin. It was you, a couple other people that I kind of featured in the menus. And basically, my base case. I can't talk right now. Sorry, I haven't eaten since like this morning. My base thesis using the Nakamoto portfolio is like at least $173,000 per Bitcoin. And that's with very, very, very minimal monetary premium coming out of real estate and maybe a little bit of stocks.

I didn't even do, you know, most other major asset classes. So my base case is still, you know, the market cap of gold. And gold is skyrocketing. We can talk about that. But yeah, I think my professional background. and I don't mean to make this all about myself, I'm just giving you a context, was in commercial real estate. All those guys are just permanent fiat maximalists. I worked for Marcus and Milchap, capital markets. You know, I worked in commercial real estate development. You know all those guys.

All they do is just borrow, borrow, borrow, defer, defer, and then they die. And then their errors get the property at a stepped up basis, right? It's literally just fiat games. That's right. And unless you're one of those developers and you're sitting in the right seat and you can get cheap credit, But the majority of the stack for those people, you know, because they form these syndicates, as you know, Marco, and it's all these limited partners at these investors. So if they even have enough wealth that they can get in, if you take it out on a 10, 20-year frame, they're really only making 4 to 5%. Everyone's like, oh, my God, I can make 20%, I can make 30%.

But if you go through the cycles, that's not happening. And partially because of the friction, because of the taxes. And the taxes is another thing. Like some real estate people are like, oh, we can save so much on our taxes. Yeah, but the amount you save on your taxes are just crumbs compared to what you're talking about, Marco, with the appreciation of Bitcoin. And in fact, real quick on that Nakamoto Institute thing, I think I saw on there on any 10-year period, you could take just 5% in Bitcoin and 95% in cash, the rest in cash, and you'll still beat

the S&P 500. You will beat the stock market bros. Yeah, I don't know if you've seen for the people that aren't familiar in America, I know, Ben, I think you're in Canada, but we have this thing called the 1031 exchange. So if I sell a property, say my cost basis in a property is a million dollars, I sell it for $4 million, well, I have a capital gain of what, $3 million, right? So with the 1031 exchange, I have a certain amount of time to where I can find a like and similar property to defer that $3 million in capital gains.

And a lot of that money is flowing into things with cap rates, meaning essentially a rate of return of like 3, 4, 5%. I can beat that with the Treasury bill, right? So the whole game, it's that saying from Charlie Munger, you show me the incentive. I'll show you the result, right? And that's why these fiat games keep getting played. Why would I want to buy some defunct dollar general in the middle of rural Ohio to get back a 4% return and be a landlord, right? And you still have the friction.

Once you, you know, I sold a place in Austin, not far from the Bitcoin Commons and then another one, three places down from Bitcoin Park in Nashville. I had these two rental props. I rented out to students. And I sold those and a 1031 of those into bigger. apartments and then those into bigger apartments, I just had bigger headaches. I mean, I was getting calls 24-7 for everything that was going wrong, partially because they were all, you know, broke students. But yeah, never again, that's all now in Bitcoin, fortunately. Yeah, so I didn't

mean to derail the conversation, but I can definitely see a lot of people coming from the real estate world to your point, Ben, and that monetary premium, that's all Bitcoin is. It's just a big monetary premium vacuum cleaner. What do you guys, because I mean, a lot of people are heavily invested in continuing the status quo. They've staked their livelihoods on real estate going up forever. And Bitcoin taking that place is a pretty scary proposition to a lot of them. Do you see the people in those markets? Like, is there any way for them to defend that, you know, how do they handle this? Yeah, there's a big difference between commercial and residential and Terrence can probably speak to this.

So commercial, the way the value of the property is derived is through its net operating income. Okay, it's NOI. That's essentially EBITDA, earnings before interest taxes, depreciation, amortization. Basically, how much does the property make, right? Think of it like a business. With residential is different because you have comps, right? Oh, this is a three bedroom, two bath. This one sold for 300 grand.

So mine is close to 300 grand, right? With commercial real estate, you can still add value. Right? With residential, I think what's going to happen to your point, Ben, is that all this monetary premium is going to suck out of residential real estate and bring it down to its utility value. Okay? Like, why am I buying a home preventing a single mother of two kids to get into a good school system just so I can be a landlord, right? It shouldn't work like that. And I know I probably sound like, you know, socialist, wherever I'm not, but real estate should not be a toy for Black Rock, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be a tough pill to swallow for even a lot of people that were

just told that, hey, like, this is your number one investment. I think the, I think one of the toughest things of commercial or residential for investors is going to be sort of the story that they tell themselves. And part of it is that, you know, we all want to be the hero of our own story, right? And it's like with real estate, you can be the hero of your own story, even though you're not going to do as well as Bitcoin. But you're not going to do as well as Bitcoin. But you're, you know, You know, you are buying the tools. You're grabbing the truck. You know how to fix the wall.

I'm going to spend all Friday night, you know, shucking the floor, whatever. With Bitcoin, it's just so peaceful. You just saving it and you don't do anything. And so it's really hard with our activity bias for people to feel like the hero. It's really, really tough. And I think that's one of the biggest, toughest things. That was what was tough for me to get past. I thought I was a genius with all these houses that I've been flipping and making TV shows about flipping, you know, houses and all this stuff.

But it's like if I sit back and look at a balance sheet and compare it to Bitcoin or just hanging on to the original things that I bought, it's just inflation. It's like follow the liquidity, follow with the prices of real estate. And it just follows. It's like a seven week leg. 100%. Yeah. I love this comment.

Everything is a toy for black. No lies detected there. Gentlemen, I love this. Again, it's, I think it'll, the real estate thing, that's going to be a hard thing for a lot of people to grapple with. But maybe also there'll be the ones that start to understand it earlier than the right. I think there's opportunity there. I mean, with this example of like the Rockstar real estate guys, if the right people are communicating it to within that community,

there's opportunity to correct to save yourself a little bit. But again, the laggards are the ones that are going to get the brunt of it, I suppose. So such is life. But gentlemen, with that, we're going to do another rotation. I will say to everybody in the chat, thank you guys for being here. It looks like we've had a few thousand people through here between X and YouTube. And, of course, we're streaming on Noster as well via zap. So thank you guys for being here.

If you are on the stream, make sure you give that like button a tap if you're enjoying the conversation. And we're going to give a quick final sponsor shout out. And when we get back, Marco, I'm looking at you. You're going to find out why you're bullish. So we'll see you guys in just a moment. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your Bitcoin on mobile, Aqua wallet has you covered. It's user-friendly and puts you in full control of your Bitcoin with secure self-custody. Aqua also supports lightning and liquid network, making fast, cheap Bitcoin payments and asset transfers easier than ever.

Plus, it even supports stable coins giving you ultimate flexibility. Build on open source code, Aqua is transparent, trustworthy, and perfect for beginner and pros alike. Ready to upgrade your Bitcoin experience? Click the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen now to download Aqua Wallet today. Securing your Bitcoin doesn't have to be complicated or invasive. With Nunchuk's Honey Badger Plan, you get state-of-the-art multisig with built-in inheritance planning and no KYC required. Nunchuk is trusted by users to secure billions of dollars in Bitcoin. The Honey Badger Plan offers 204 assisted multi-sig guiding you step-by-step on mobile or desktop.

It works seamlessly with hardware wallets like TapSigner, Cold Card, Jade, and plenty of others. So you're always in control. Plus, with non-KYC inheritance planning, you can ensure your Bitcoin goes to your loved ones, no private info needed. Take control of your Bitcoin today. Click the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen to check out the Honey Badger Plan. Coin Kite has been in the game for years creating hands down the best and most secure hardware

when it comes to securing your Bitcoin. The cold card Q is an absolute powerhouse and my daily driver and it's ideal for newcomers and advanced users alike. The tap signer gives you a low-cost. user-friendly option for those just getting started or for convenience when traveling. You can head to coin kite.com and use code BTC sessions for discounts or simply scan the QR code on the screen to get started right away. All right gentlemen, we are back in and anybody watching by the way if you need any help whether it be with hardware or

self-custody you know if you're if you're making strides but you're feeling stuck and you need some handholding again you can reach out to my team over at Bitcoin Mentor. Oh, incredible educators over there that I've personally vetted, trained, and they're just helping people sleep easy because it can be a little scary the first time you take self-custody, you're diving into things, hardware, multi-sig, all of that. Reach out. They're awesome.

I see my guy Nathan in the chat as well. He's also our chief mentor, and he is a host of mentor session, which recently hosted Marco as well. We do have a cold card masterclass. That's the QR code on the screen right now. But anyways, with that, I digress. We're going to jump right back into it. Marco, you're going to bring us home here.

So let's have it. Why are you bullish? Okay. So I alluded to it earlier, but I think, you know, Dr. Barry hit the nail in the head. You have mentioned this as well, Ben. I'm going to bring something up after this. It's a little bit more current. But I'm basically class of 2017-2018-ish, okay, January of 20,

So we're sitting at $84,203 Bitcoin, $1.67 trillion market cap, and people are bitching on social media. Okay, so A, that's why I'm bullish. Okay. I brought this up what I was on with Nathan on the two, three weeks ago. And I just don't understand how we can go from, you know, hundreds of billions of dollar market cap to almost two trillion at $109,000 per coin. and people are bearish, especially with all the sentiment that's going on. So that's why I'm bullish. The more recent thing was actually the Bitcoin enhanced treasury bonds.

So I'm sure you guys have heard of this or seen this. It's a few weeks old now. But from the time that I was invited to the podcast to actually recording, this is kind of what I wanted to talk about. So basically, coming from the traditional finance world, I have a bunch of videos about how we have $34 trillion dollars of debt. We have so much debt coming due in 2025 to where a lot of money, A lot of people think Trump is intentionally causing recession, lower rates, refinance the debt,

kick the can down the road. So for the people that aren't familiar, the Bitcoin enhanced treasury bonds, 90% would go to regular funding needs. 10% would go to the strategic Bitcoin Reserve. And basically, investors can get a fixed interest rate on these bonds, right? So it's no different than like a T bill or something that people are already buying. Same thing with sovereigns. Other countries buying our treasury bonds, if you will.

And then why? So based on my notes, the last time I saw was $14 trillion in maturing debt over three years, four and a half percent interest rates where they're at right now. Refinancing is very costly. And then basically the executive order that was signed earlier, or March 6th, I should say, was to create a strategic Bitcoin reserve defining Bitcoin as what we've been talking about, digital gold. So with all that being said, without getting into the details, I don't want to get into like, much they would issue, you know, the rates and all that stuff. But if this were to catch on, I think this would just be all your models are broken scenario, because not only would Americans most likely buy it, sovereign nations would as well. So I'm not going to say I'm an expert on

BitBonds, but for me, recently, that's been the most interesting traditional financial thing linking Bitcoin to the United States government. I like that. I found it very, there I can't remember the gentleman that did the presentation in D.C., but it was like a nine-minute presentation. Do you recall his name? It was like a younger guy. I don't know if it was Andrew. Matt Pines is with my buddy actually works for the same company. It's a crowd strike? I can't remember. It's one of those security firms. But anyway, it could have been, it could have been Andrew if he was a younger guy. I just can't put his face to a name right now. Yeah. Yeah, those bit bonds. Your right are going to be huge. I'm super bullish on those as well. If that happens, that's, you know,

people said Bitcoin strategic. reserve would be all your models are broken. But I don't know, guys. I just think that there's so much positivity going on from 2017 until now. It's not even comparable. We were pariahs, you know, five, six, seven years ago to now it's where, you know, we have Wall Street in the game. To me, it's the financialization of Bitcoin, the ETFs. This happened with real estate, with commercial real estate. This happened with gold with GLD. It's an asset class being ingrained with the traditional financial system. So some Bitcoiners don't like that. For me, I think it's inevitable path for it to become adopted more and more. Because let's be honest,

Normies, when they swipe their visa and they buy, you know, McDonald's with the credit card, they have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. They just know that I swipe plastic, I receive food, right? Well, Dr. Barry may not call that food, but you know what I mean. But they don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And for Bitcoin to be ingrained with nine out of ten normies, it has to go through the financialization aspect. So I'll stop talking now. I just want to tag on to you mentioned. Some people, may not like that. And that's fair. I understand people, and it depends how people are approaching it. But I see oftentimes people say, why are we cheering this on? And to a point, I get that point.

But I also think that there's a couple things about it. Number one, somebody owning a lot of Bitcoin doesn't prevent me from saving in and using my Bitcoin day to day. It literally has no effect on me. Number two, I don't think it was realistic to expect that the people in positions of power that have every reason to continue stringing along the status quo when they recognize that there's something that they can't control that will ruin the status quo, that they would begin to insert themselves and try to get their piece of the pie before it's too late. They're not going to stand at the size. sidelines and say, I'll just let this play out and get wrecked because I don't like it and it takes away some of my power. No, they're going to use their unfair advantage right now when people still don't understand the nature of fiat.

We'll get to a point where they're just printing to buy Bitcoin until people will no longer accept what they're printing. And those people are going to get screwed. but it in no way prevents me from using my Bitcoin. And even if you're in a jurisdiction under a totalitarian regime that says, hey, Bitcoin is banned, we can see clear as day that Bitcoin still functions in those regions and you can still use it peer to peer. So I think in the end, to degree, when I look at this, I'm not celebrating the fact that the people, that use the current predatory system to get to positions where they are

right now, I'm not celebrating the fact that they're using that privilege to get ahead yet again. I'm celebrating the fact that game theory is playing out, that even my enemy is understanding it, and that when it all kind of comes to fruition, we're at least now on a level playing field,

and they can't screw with the game. I think that's the whole point. Yeah, sorry, Terrence. I was just going to say there actually is an exit strategy for once, right? What was it before? Gold? You know, what am I going to do? Go to Costco and shave off some gold to buy milk? Like, no, now there actually is an exit plan. So sorry, go ahead, Terran. Oh, yeah, I was just going to say that that is what Satoshi was doing and how Finney actually wrote a lot about this and many of the early cryptographers was that it's a separation from the central banks, not banks. We would always need banks. We would always need to financialize it. And any bank can hang on to it. any institution can do whatever, but they can't make more of it. They can't print it. And we know what the issuance schedule is. They can't change the monetary policy. And that's the best part. But it's a tool. Satoshi gave us shovels. I don't care if Harvard University or BlackRock wants to use the shovels. I still get to use my shovel. So that's what people need to remember. They just think, oh, why all these banks, they have Bitcoin?

Well, that doesn't mean anything. In fact, it only helps you. In fact, it really helps the disadvantage and the oppressed and a lot of people in the global south and West Africa who need the price of this to go up because they're losing their purchasing power or they can't be banked. So we end up helping the evil people end up helping the good people. Yeah, I mean, I've been working regularly now with the Human Rights Foundation and we've been doing quarterly webinars with people living under tyrannical governments. And the last one we had, the last webinar we had was packed full of dissidents from around the globe, like dozens of countries. all tuning in, all learning how to set up their first Bitcoin wallets,

sending lightning transactions, learning about hardware for long-term security, and also learning about using things like BTC pay for censorship-resistant fundraising for their efforts. And also how to then utilize that Bitcoin in their different locales to either convert it to local currency to get what they need or purchase directly what they need with Bitcoin if that option is available. So this, it's easy to look from a Western frame and say like the bankers are in it in the West. It's been co-opted. But like, yeah, they're buying Bitcoin. But also the person that literally had their bank account shut down in another country across the ocean and is labeled as a domestic terrorist because they don't agree with the policies of their government, they also have censorship-resistant money.

I think we need to balance that. And I keep on repeating it because it's so relevant. But one of my favorite things that Jeff Booth has said multiple times is when asked, what's the worst or hardest thing to grapple with with Bitcoin? And he says, well, the hardest thing about Bitcoin is you have to understand that your enemy using it and being able to use it, it makes it better and stronger for yourself. And that's a really hard thing to be like, I despise this person and what they stand for. And they're using Bitcoin.

And it's benefiting them. But because of that, it's benefiting me. That's a hard thing to understand. Yeah, it is. And if I could. I've been a innovator or an early adopter of many different things in my life. And it's classic human psychology for innovator. and early adopters of any technology to say this is our thing.

This is our thing. We're doing this. This is not for the big banks. This is not for the investment houses. This is our thing. It's almost like an underdog. Like, no, you don't get to do our thing. But I've seen that in many different fields in all of my different careers.

And that's just basic human nature. When you have something like Bitcoin that just inspires pride and inspires there's people to become better versions of themselves. And they're very proud of that. And they love that feeling and that fact that this has made me a better person. This is making the world a better place. And then when you hear somebody from Black Rock talking about your thing, you're like, wait a minute.

No, this is not for you. This is for people like me, for people like us. But I think if you go back and you read the white papers and you listen to the early, early intelligentsia of Bitcoin, this was inevitable. This was always going to happen. And it actually, in fact, it has to happen in order for Bitcoin to become ubiquitous. That is part of the global adoption is that these big firms that you kind of hate and you really wish we go bankrupt, they're going to be able to use Bitcoin too.

But that's just part of it. But I think the human nature is very telling when the earlier adopters are like, no, this is not for you yeah it's i mean if if we had the power to exclude them bitcoin will have failed exactly and so that's it's it's a little bit it's the it's the old trope of uh you know you've got your favorite underground band and then all the sudden they get popular and you're like oh they're no good everybody likes them or oh that restaurant sucks now everybody likes loves to go to it so it's going to fail because it's too busy like it's it's just If something's good, people will gravitate towards it.

And some of those people you're not going to like. You don't go to Olive Garden anymore, Ben? Is that what you're saying? I tend to steer clear of the pastas for the most part. Nice. Ken approves. Yeah. Also, it's feed our food.

Yes, yes. And actually, I wouldn't mind as just an indulgence. I know that Matthew Leashack was. was trying to be here. He had a last-minute conflict in his schedule. But I want to give a tip of the hat to Matthew Lecchek, who wrote Fiat Food. And in my opinion, it's a must-read. I was just bellowing at the pages as I read how corrupt everything in our existing food system is

and how it has been perverted over the decades. And it's probably one of the first things that really got me to examine my diet and make some changes in that every time I get that that urge to eat something unhealthy and then I give into it. It's not just that I feel crappy. I also feel angry because they got me. That's a very powerful emotion. So I want to give a tip of my hat to him. Ken, I was wondering, given your background. and what you do,

if you maybe wanted to comment a little bit on Fiat Food and maybe how it ties in with like this don't trust, Verify and low-time preference ethos of Bitcoin as well. Yeah, it's an excellent book, Fiat Food. I read it probably a year ago and agree with literally every sentence in the book. And I think all of you guys have touched on this at earlier points in this conversation,

that when the money is dishonest, that will bleed over into literally every aspect of society. And money is one of the foundational principles of modern society. But even before money, there was food. And I, for one, think that we should go back and redefine what you mean by the word food, because many of the nutritional gurus out there, if you ask them, you probably wouldn't agree with their definition of what food is.

In my definition, jelly donuts are not food, right? That's not food for a human being. It leads to inflammation. It leads to hyperinsulinia. It leads to medical problems. Food is nourishment. Just like money should be value. Food is nourishment.

It should help you be healthier. It should, just like money should make you wealthier. and I think that for many people, the food wars, right? The keto, the carnivore versus vegan, vegetarian, flexitarian, whatever, that was their kind of eye-opening moment. There's a lot of people out here trying to mislead me. There's a lot of people out here who are literally going to make money off of my illness, off my disease by selling me stuff that's not food, it's pseudo-food.

and I'm going to be giving them my Fiat dollars for this Fiat food, which I think is probably a pretty good bargain, right? You get what you pay for. But a lot of people are coming to Bitcoin, at least from my neck of the woods, through the food. And whether they've read Fiat food or not, which I highly recommend, I think everybody should read that. But once you see this truth,

that there's corruption here. There's people that are literally making money off illness, off disease, off poverty, they're proclaiming poverty food as health food. They're proclaiming Fiat food as this is the best diet you can eat. When people see that, they're like, okay, I know that's wrong because when I followed the proper human diet principles, my health improved drastically. And then, like Ben said, when I do eat something stupid, because we all do that every now and then, not only do you pay for it physically, some people pay for it mentally.

I mean, literally their mental health will suffer for a week or two after an indiscretion, but then you realize they got me. They got my 20 bucks and they got me. And so I think for a lot of people, the food is what woke them up. And now they're saying, okay, well, if the food's broken, what else? What else is broken? And I think that brings a lot of people, and it helps them understand the Bitcoin arguments, because the arguments are literally boilerplate, real value, right?

Real, real, real, literal, real food, actual food. And I think that when you understand that in one area of your life, then you start just naturally looking at other areas going, well, I wonder what's going on over here with the money. I wonder if it's full of crap as well. Guess what? It sure is. There's so much crossover with all of these little things that we're talking.

on again the the and this is another yet another reason to be bullish but just like pulling from some of the topics that we've talked about here including the health one here at the end there's a lot of people noticing and beginning to question our biggest institutions and this is kind of outlined in books like the sovereign individual and the fourth turning and all of these things and so we're we're seeing this all around us when it comes to gold and silver bugs when it comes to people that are looking at the food system when it comes to people that are investing in real estate going oh my god i now understand why our business even

can flourish it comes down to the money's broken and we're all starting to coalesce on that and there's so much opportunity here to go to communities that have a tangential mindset that are primed to get Bitcoin. And I think this is probably the next call to action for Bitcoiners is to inject ourselves into spaces where we are the minority, but we can find that common ground with these people. Because like I said, being at the real estate event with Bitcoin Mentor, we were the unique ones in the room. And so people flooded over because they wanted to learn more. And imagine the impact of that. And same thing, the Human Rights Foundation, that stuff, people are very curious now.

They really want to learn. They're seeing it everywhere. How can this help me? Does it help me? If we can inject ourselves into more spaces like that, the leaps and bounds we're going to make with new entrants into the space that our ethos aligned is going to be staggering. And that excites me to no end. So gentlemen, what I want to do here to round out is,

is just any final thoughts that you may have on the conversation, on any of the conversations that we've had today. And then also, if you want to point people towards something that you're up to, or just a piece of content, something interesting, you'd love them to check out. I'd love to hear it. So maybe Terrence will start with you. Then we'll go to Marco. Then we'll go to Ken.

Sure. Actually, I'll finish with something that Ken just brought up. You know, it's, and tie it back to Bitcoin, what you were just talking about with food, with real food and fake food, is really a good analogy and metaphor for Bitcoin and crypto. Like a lot of people that first come into the space when they say, like, I don't get it. What do you mean? Bitcoin is crypto. Well, yes, technically it's cryptographic.

But look, food in a box that's filled with seed oils and toxic sludge, it's technically digestible, but it's gotten so bad that we can no longer really call it food. So that's why we don't call Bitcoin, quote unquote, crypto anymore. We've had to separate it because all this other. this stuff is really unhealthy. So what you just said is actually a great argument or a great description of the difference between Bitcoin and crypto. So I just wanted to point that out. Awesome. Mark, I'll toss it to you. Final upon anything. I love it. Yeah. So most of the people that are listening to this are familiar with this, but I always want to reinforce pretty much my

educational journey when it comes to books. I think for anyone that's coming from my audience, Ben, that's not familiar with your work or Bitcoin in general, I can't stress, enough to read these books in this order. So it's a lot of people that's going to be common sense, but bullish case for Bitcoin by Vijay Boyapati. That's the primer, okay, inventing Bitcoin by Pritzker, that's basically the, okay, I'm a layman, I'm not a computer programmer. What is this thing? Helps you with the technology. The Bitcoin standard, which isn't really even about Bitcoin. It's more about, you know, economics and monetary policy and all that. Gradually, then suddenly, layered money, the price of tomorrow, and broken money. And then Larry Lepard just came out with his,

the big print. So for anyone watching this, if you haven't read any of those, please do so. I mean, most of us already know about these things, but I can't reinforce the homework enough because the principles of Bitcoin haven't changed since 2009. That's why I'm still bullish, ultimately. That's perfect. That's perfect. Ken, I'll toss it to you. Any final thoughts? Yeah, that was an excellent book list by Marco. I've read every single one. one of those and I'm almost in that exact order and I highly recommend those books in that order. I think that's great and I like I said earlier I just finished the big print. Highly recommend that book, especially for people who have been in finance for years who

looked at money the old way and they were maybe somewhat successful doing that. The big print, excellent, excellent book and kind of scary at the end. I just I just want to wrap up by encouraging. everybody to store value in real things, store value in real money. And I'm sold on Bitcoin, but I still like gold and silver, and I still like, I still like farmland. But I think that all those things require a lot more work than just stacking stats. And so store your wealth in real money and feed your body real human food and things

just keep getting better and better when you follow those basic guidelines. And have kids. And like a lot of kids, absolutely. It's full circle here. We started talking about how you came from being a gold bug to being a bitcoiner and about how gold bugs maybe had a pessimistic view of the future and Bitcoiners have the opposite. And if anything, Bitcoiners have been.

great at popping out kids. So it's a bright future. We will reinherit the earth. Yes. It's been great. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Anybody that's been watching, please do give that like button a tap if you've enjoyed the conversation. All of these gentlemen, I encourage you to follow them. I've got links in these show notes down below. And of course, you can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors down below. And if you need any help in your Bitcoin learning journey in and around self-custody, proper security, peace of mind, running nodes, hobbyist home mining. You can scan that QR code on the screen or in the links down below. Check out my team at Bitcoin Mentor. But with that, thank you guys

so much. This was an absolute blast. And everybody keeps stacking sats, keep stacking skills. I'm Ben with the BTC sessions. This was your daily session.