BTC Sessions - How Pro Negotiators ACTUALLY Win 93% of the Time | Bitcoiners Lessons | Derek Gaunt

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Mentor Sessions Ep.017: Derek Gaunt on How Bitcoiners can Master Negotiations with the Black Swan Group TacticsIn this Mentor Sessions episode, Derek Gaunt, a 20-year hostage negotiator and Black Swan Group expert, joins us to reveal how His and Chris Voss’s proven tactics can transform your Bitcoin deals and daily life. Learn to navigate high-stakes negotiations, defuse tense conversations, and unlock powerful communication tools like mirrors, labels, and dynamic silence. From saving $16 million in a lawsuit to deciding on dinner, Derek’s insights are a game-changer for Bitcoiners aiming win more. Don’t miss this chance to boost your leadership, communication, and negotiating skills—hit play now!Key Topics: • Applying hostage negotiation to everyday interactions • Black Swan Group communication strategies • Tactical empathy for better Bitcoin deals • Why curiosity is your secret weapon in negotiationsChapters: • 00:00:00 - IntroductionDerek Gaunt sets the stage, debunking "win-win" and sharing his Black Swan Group expertise.• 00:00:28 - Why Negotiation Matters for BitcoinersHow Derek Gaunt and Chris Voss’s skills tripled income and why Bitcoiners need them.• 00:02:27 - Derek’s Hostage Negotiation BackgroundDerek shares his 20-year journey and the founding of the Black Swan Group with Chris Voss.• 00:04:41 - The Power of Tactical EmpathyWhy understanding your counterpart’s worldview is key to negotiations.• 00:06:18 - High-Stakes Negotiation SuccessHow Derek’s coaching saved a client $16 million in a lawsuit using Black Swan tactics.• 00:10:43 - Defusing Defenses in ConversationsUsing tactical empathy to lower defenses and enable open discussions.• 00:12:25 - Letting the Other Side Go FirstWhy curiosity and listening first unlock better outcomes.• 00:21:44 - Key Negotiation Tools: Labels, Mirrors, SilenceDerek explains how to use labels, mirrors, and dynamic silence.• 00:39:47 - Handling Difficult PersonalitiesStrategies to address counterproductive behavior respectfully in deals.• 00:43:50 - When to Walk Away from a DealDerek on spotting integrity issues and walking away from risky partnerships.• 00:46:45 - Are Hostage Negotiations the Hardest?Why Black Swan skills apply universally, from Bitcoin buys to everyday disputes.• 00:54:00 - Overcoming Objections with CuriosityHow to uncover hidden motivations in price objections using labels.• 01:06:51 - Structuring a Winning ConversationDerek’s framework for Bitcoin negotiations: accusations audit, summary, proof of life.• 01:11:47 - Derek’s Bitcoin Journey & Where to Find HimDerek’s take on Bitcoin and how to connect with his work at Black Swan Group.About Derek Gaunt: • Book: Ego, Authority, Failure (available on Amazon and Audible)• Website: blackswanltd.com• LinkedIn: Derek Gaunt• Instagram: @derekmgaunt• Email: [e-mail] FREE Bitcoin Book Giveaway: New to Bitcoin? Get Magic Internet Money by Jesse Berger FREE! Click: bitcoinmentororange.com/magic-internet-money BOOK Private Sessions with Bitcoin Mentor: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. Visit bitcoinmentor.io Subscribe to Mentor Sessions: Don’t miss out!Follow Us:• BTC Sessions: @BTCsessions• Nathan: @theBTCmentor• Gary: @GaryLeeNYCPrevious Episode: Check out MADEX on fiat’s war on art and Alberta’s Bitcoin future: https://youtu.be/E93GGv5EIQs Support the Channel: Smash the like button, share with your Bitcoin crew, and subscribe for more! #Bitcoin #Negotiation #DerekGaunt #BlackSwanGroup #ChrisVoss #HostageNegotiation #TacticalEmpathy #BitcoinPodcast #CommunicationSkills #MentorSessions #BitcoinEducation #Leadership #Podcast #Crypto #Cryptocurrency

You'll never hear me talk about this idea of win-win, because there is no such thing as win-win-win. There's win more and win less, but there's no win-win. Hossus negotiators have a success rate of 93%. We walk through a strategy for him to negotiate with the plaintiff's, with his attorney and the plaintiff's attorney, saved him close to $16 million. Takeaway, it doesn't matter what you're talking about. That's the merger acquisition, Bitcoin transfers, where are we going to eat tonight for dinner? The skills are applicable. Okay, so I am unbelievably excited because today we have Derek Gaunt joining us.

I was personally able to 3x my income using the lessons from Derek and Chris Voss over the Black Swan Group, which is why I think these skills are so important for Bitcoiners to master. Derek spent 20 years as a hostage negotiator and now he's teaching the world how to turn high-stakes tactics into everyday wins. In this interview, he's unpacking practical communications tools like mirrors, labels, and strategic silence, stuff that you can start using today to make you a better leader and negotiator. If you haven't yet explored this topic, you are leaving Bitcoin on the table. Going beyond Bitcoin to give you the skills and insights you need to escape the Fiatics, this is Mentor Sessions.

Derek, thank you so much for joining us today. I'd like to just jump right in and get started. So Bitcoin is uncensurable. It's unconfiscatable money. And that means you can take it, you can't take it from anyone. You have to show you the other person that it's in their best interest to trade with you. And negotiation communication skills are going to be even more important. important in this space. So with that in mind, the most important question to be asked is,

how can I finally convince my lady that I'm right? That's funny. Is that a real question? If you have a real answer, I'm happy to hear it. Pick and choose your battles, my friend. You've got to choose which hill you want to die on. So at the end of the day, she wants to be heard, she wants to be respected, she wants to be understood. And that's a desire that all of us have. And if you approach every conversation with her from that perspective, you'll do just fine. Okay. Okay.

So don't just tell her that I'm right. Actually, try to listen. Yeah, manspaining doesn't really go over well. Good advice. Well, you know, some of our audience might not be familiar with you. Can you tell us a little bit about your previous experience that led you to your work with the Black Swan Group and what you're doing now? All right. So the Black Swan Group is a strategic business advisory firm, and our focus is teaching businesses and individuals how to apply hostage negotiations, practices, and principles to their world. And that's where I cut my teeth as an adult. I spent 29 years in law enforcement. In 20 of those years, I was a part of a hostage negotiation team. I came on in 88, became a negotiator in 97. team leader in 2001, team commander in 2004.

And that's a position I held up until the time that I punched out in 2017. Now, in that interim, I met Chris Voss, who was the author of Never Split the Difference. I met him back in 2000, I think it was. We were introduced by a mutual friend. He knew I was deep into the discipline. I knew he was obviously deep into the discipline. We became fast friends. And in 2007, he started the Black Swan Group, and I came on as a contract employee in 2010.

And that's provided me an opportunity to travel all over the globe to teach businesses, individuals, how to improve their interpersonal communication skills to get what they want. And so that's it in a nutshell. That's all I'm doing now. I'm hanging out with guys like you quite frequently. I am doing a lot of individual coaching where people are calling in for, deal-specific coaching that they need help on. And we're still rocking and rolling with the live events.

We're coming to a city near you, I'm sure, at some point in 2025. So it's been, it's been quite a ride. We went from just me, Chris, and his son to, you know, now we've got 30, 35 plus. Wow. So we have, we've done a lot in a little bit of time. It's really great. Beautiful. Before we even get into maybe some of the skills and some of the places that people should start learning about this sort of information and where to begin, I'm just kind of curious if maybe you have any good examples or just a, what's the why? Why is learning these communication tactics, learning to better negotiate? Why is that so valuable and important to people? Well, I mean, it goes back to the first question that Gary asked. Everybody, every person on this planet has a thirst, a desire, a need to be heard, to be understood.

understood and to be respected. And quite frankly, we don't get enough of it. And so when you change your perspective, your mindset into let me show some genuine curiosity and what's going on with this person on the other side. I guarantee you, professionally, personally, they're not having that need fulfilled by many people, if any. And so if you can just take a step back, get out of your way, and instead of, instead of trying to beckon them across the street to come to you, go across the street, stand shoulder to shoulder with them and look at exactly what they're looking at. And once you can convey that you understand what their worldview is, that's when the magic happens.

because at the end of the day, guys, if you don't understand my worldview, you don't understand me. And if you don't understand me, I don't care what you want. I don't care how much sense it makes. I'm not moving. Very interesting. I'm curious if either in law enforcement beforehand or with your work with Black Swan, are there any examples you might have, perhaps like a high-stakes negotiation where these tactics, like the proof and point had the outcome that we were looking for that really changed the outcome?

A client that I coached through an accident. We'll just call it an accident. And the plaintiff's attorney was looking for a substantial amount of money as a result of this accident. I mean, I'm talking about, we're talking about millions of dollars as a result of this accident. And so we walked through a strategy for him to negotiate with the plaintiffs, with his attorney and the plaintiff's attorney, where they were able to settle for probably, yeah, about 15% of what they were actually asked. Wow. Oh. And so that one coaching session, well, it was a series of a block of four.

So it was four coaching sessions saved him close to $16 million. Wow. And it doesn't get much more high stakes than that because this, they clearly were culpable in this thing. and there was there was grievous harm to the plaintiffs and there were so i tell you all of that to say that the emotions were very very high yeah and he was able to navigate through that thing and saved his company a boatload of of money and that's just one example uh there's there's just there's just there's just many because at the end of the day what we espoused uh in the role of hostage negotiation,

hostage negotiation was managing these conversations regardless of where you think the leverage is. And as a hostage negotiator, I had all of the leverage in the world. I could, with a tip of the hat or a nod, I could impact their environment negatively almost any time that I wanted to do. But I did not have to engage them from that perspective. So just because you have the leverage, you have the power, doesn't mean that you have to wield it as such.

It's abundantly clear who's got who has the advantage, who has the disadvantage. And if you are at if you have the advantage, the important thing is to not carry yourself like that. Because what what you guys are challenged with is every time that you reach out to another individual and I want or I need is in your head or in the head of the counterpart, that is going to be a sensitive conversation. By the mere fact that I want or I need is in your head, you are automatically a threat to that person. So let's say, for example, you're engaging somebody to see if they want to trade with you, right? And you've gone back and forth over email. They seem pretty amicable and nice, and the agreement seems friendly and we're going to get together on a Zoom call or a phone call in a few days.

Even though they seem to be the most pleasant person in the world and you guys seem to be the most pleasant person in the world, the minute that you pick up that phone is the minute that you become a threat to them. The minute that they put themselves in a defensive posture, not because you're an ogre or you're mean, but they know that at the conclusion of that call, they're going to have less of something than what they have now, even if it's nothing more than time. And so you may think that they agreed to this meeting. I'm in the clear. This is going to go swimmingly.

When you pick up the phone and you make that call, they are on the other side just like this, waiting for you to get, waiting for you to hit them. And so the important thing is to, with tactical empathy, remove yourself as a threat from the conversation. because as long as you remain a threat, meaningful dialogue is not going to take place. It sounds to me like essentially the first thing we got to do is kind of get the defenses down so that we can actually have an open conversation. If we can't get past that, we're not likely to get anywhere, at least not get to a better place? No, you're not. Because at the end of the day, they're just, and how do I want to say?

They are not as smart as they could be if they are in a defense. offensive posture. When the hippocampus and the amygdala fires up, what's supposed to be going on in the prefrontal cortex is not happening, or it's obscured. It's being obstructed because when negative emotions are high, rational thinking is low. And so when we, when we encounter somebody who's giving off a lot of defensiveness and resistance, hesitation, reluctances, fear, when they're becoming emotional. Our default is I need to explain better. Because if I were just to explain this better, I could alleviate all of these concerns. And that's not where you should be focused. What you should be focused on is the motivation behind every statement, action, or question. And understanding

what's driving it, that's the only way to uncover it, diffuse it so that they can be smarter. Your brain works up to 31% better when it's in a positive state. So of course, at the beginning of conversation, you've got to get as many of those negatives out as possible because I want them as cognitively nimble as they can be when I get to my ask. And they're not going to get there unless I dissipate the negatives first. Yeah. I was watching one of your kind of seminars and you were talking about a lot of this stuff. And, you know, one of the first things you said was, you know, your goal in a hostage situation is to get the hostages out. and get this guy, the hostage taker, into custody.

But you did not want to lead with your goal because that would not be helpful in that situation. And I think, unless I interpreted incorrectly, one of the first things you wanted to do was to try your best to listen to him. Let him explain himself. Yep. That's the bottom line. Let the other side go first. Let the other side go first. Don't be so married to your goal and objective.

that you wouldn't take something better if it came along. And it might just come along as a result of that conversation because you're going into the conversation with incomplete information. So those of you who make up your mind where you want to end up and you won't move off of it going into a conversation, you are doing so knowingly and intentionally based on incomplete information. Because I guarantee you, again, I don't care. how amicable the conversation has been before you get with that person,

there's things going on with them that you are only going to uncover by having a dialogue with them. And so my goal and objective was to get the hostages out, but I never led with that because he was never read. They were never ready to hear that. I've never gotten on the phone where the guy said, all right, I'm coming out. I'm done.

Thank you. Yep. Now, it's important to hold that golden, Golden objective in abeyance. And when I say let the other guys go first, let them start to dump their bucket. For example, anybody who agrees to sit down with you to have a conversation about possibly doing business with you, prior to that meeting, prior to that sit down, they have already fantasized about what's going to be like if they were to do business with you. They have a vision in their head as to what it's going to look like. Don't let anybody tell you that they don't because there is not one person out there that will go out in a vacuum and make a deal, establish a partnership, make a purchase that they haven't thought about previously, that they haven't researched previously.

If it's no more than Nathan, you're calling Gary saying, hey, those sunglasses you had on last week, I love them. where'd you get them? And Gary's going to say, I love them too. They're fantastic. Here's where I got it. Nathan has already visualized what it's going to look like when he's got those glasses on his face. So it's important for you guys to let the other side go first. Get that vision out of their head. And it's no more complicated than if I were to sit down with Nathan, I would say, Nathan, you know, I've been doing a lot of thinking as I prepared for this meeting. Would it, would I be off? base to think, you probably have a vision for what our partnership is going to look like

moving forward? Because I know he has. And then he's going to share that vision with me. I don't care what he says. He could say, he could share something with me that's completely nonsensical, off base, non-starter. That's not the point. The point is deference. allowing the other side to go first. Nobody else in their world is letting them go first. Everybody approaches them with an agenda that they try to shove down their throat from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed. Personally and professionally, it happens all the time.

And here you guys come along, flip the script, and allow the other side to go first. Now, not only does it release chemicals in their brain, they start to feel a little bit better, but they also are looking at you like a one-off. Who is this guy? Why is he talking like this? I'm curious about this guy now. And that's one of the greatest things about curiosity is that it's irresistible, and it promotes reciprocity.

If I first demonstrate curiosity in you, you feel obligated to return the favor to me. And that's the position I want you to be in, especially as I approach my goal, my objective, my ask. You know, I'm sorry, Nathan, one of the more interesting things you just mentioned there is having a genuine curiosity. Because I can imagine that there are many people who could get into the hostage negotiation business who say, okay, well, these are the steps I have to take. I should ask a question, listen to the person first.

And, you know, I've done step one, step two, step three, almost very formulaic. But you said, go in, I don't know words in your mouth, but it sounded like you were saying, going with an open mind and have enough humility to accept that there might be something in the conversation that comes out of it that you were not expecting. Don't go in saying, well, he's going to say X and I'm going to respond with Y. He's going to say Z. I'm going to respond with A. This is why I don't care what sales space you're in. If you're working from scripts, you are killing yourself. You're killing yourself if you're working from a script. I don't care what it is. You sell cars. You can sell real estate. You can sell whatever. If you are working for it from a script, you're killing yourself.

a script, you're killing yourself and you're killing yourself because you're beholden to that script. So that when you're faced with a counterpart that goes off script, you have nowhere to go. And the conversation spins completely out of control. You have to go into the conversation, assuming that you have something to learn. You don't have it all. You just do not. I'm going to say this. They're going to say that. And when they say something that's not, on the script, you can't get the bat off your shoulder. And what I try to impress upon people is get out of this mindset of, I have to think of something to say. You don't have to think of what to say, because what you're going to say is always going to be predicated on what you get

from the other side. So the analogy that I use is you're playing baseball, but you never have to go out in the field. You just stay at the plate the entire time and you choose which pitch you want to swing at. And then you repackage that pitch, you give it right back to the pitcher and test your assumption. And so curiosity, curiosity, curiosity is so important because in a sensitive conversation, and again, it bears repeating because it's so important, a sensitive conversation is any conversation where I want or I need is in your head or in the head of your counterpart. And I'm telling you now, in those conversations, there's always two dynamics. There's a presenting dynamic or emotion, and that's usually captured in the actual words that come out of their mouth,

presenting dynamic or emotion. But there's always a latent, hidden, sometimes blind, dynamic, or emotion beneath the surface. going after the surface level content is good, going after the latent content is better. In fact, I would dare to say it's great because what they say, more often than not, is not what they meant. What they ask is not what they really want to know. They will ask you question A. They want the answer to question B. but they won't ask you question B for whatever reason.

And so motivation, motivation, motivation. I'm always thinking about, huh, why did he just say that? Why did she just ask that? Why did they just do that? Because from their perspective, they're begging you to pick it up. They're begging you to pick up intuitively what's going on with them. From their perspective, they're standing on a rich, line and they're waving a flag going, Nathan, please look up here. Please address this. And so

getting off of the surface and going after the latent dynamic or emotion is what's going to remove that stuck lid from the jar faster. Very interesting. I want to tease apart that a little bit. If we're looking to go on a bit of a fact-finding mission, if we're looking to uncover the latent dynamics, other emotions, things hiding under the surface, I know you guys have some very specific kind of tools or frameworks that you use for kind of digging at that information. And I caught earlier, I'm going to steal it, by the way. You said, would I be off base? And I caught the way that that question was purposely phrased. I'm wondering, in terms of someone that's maybe just getting into this is starting to learn, what sort of things would you recommend is kind of,

in my mind, they're kind of viewing them as tools, but perhaps you have a different way of framing it. What are ways that you can try and uncover the hidden dynamics at play? All right. So first of all, listen to your intuition. Your intuition subconscious, the thing has kept us alive for thousands of years. And we are picking up on data from the environment all of the time. Dr. Bruce Lipton, it's called the biology of belief. In that book, he said that the unconscious brain, subconscious, I should say, intuition. gut processes 20 million bits of information per second. Wow. Your conscious brain only processes 40. So what does that tell you? That's a supercomputer inside of you that is processing data from all over the place.

And it's never going to fail you. So the first thing is, trust it. If the person says something to you and you sense, well, they said this. But I'm really sensing it's more of that. Trust yourself. Go after what your gut is telling you. So, for example, I would simply say, a minute ago, Nathan, you said X, Y, and Z. And that because of that, you were frustrated.

It sounds, though, to me, like you're also hurt behind what occurred. And again, this is an educated guess on my part based on what you gave me. I'm going to repackage it and give it back to you to test my assumption. Now, he could come back and say to me, yeah, I am a little hurt behind what occurred. Or he could come back at me and say, I'm not hurt. In fact, I'm going out to exact vengeance on this person. Either way, I'm now smarter. I went from wondering whether or not this was the case to now knowing whether or not it's the case.

And you are never worse off going from wondering whether or not something is the case to knowing whether or not it's the case. And what I've done for Nathan in that simple moment, because I just used a label, it sounds like, What I've done for him in the moment is demonstrated and understanding. See, we like to tell people I understand and I get it. That's not enough. That's insufficient. It's a matter of you demonstrating that you understand. And so the quick tools that everybody should get their head around are labels, mirrors, and dynamic silence.

If you can master those three skills, you're going to put yourself at a distinct advantage over the majority of the population. Because nobody is doing that. Nobody is talking like that. Are you still delaying taking self-custody of your Bitcoin? Do you feel secure in your current Bitcoin setup? If something were to happen to you, would your stack make it to your loved ones? At Bitcoin Mentor, we've helped thousands of people level up their Bitcoin security and fast track their understanding. If you find that you simply don't have the time to go through all the books, the tutorials, the guides. You can book a free one-on-one strategy session with myself, Gary,

or any of the other great mentors by visiting Bitcoin Mentor.io. Scan the QR code or simply click the link in the description down below to find out how Ben and the entire expert team at Bitcoin Mentor can help you accelerate your Bitcoin journey. Use promo code BTC sessions for 10% off. And people love to have other people understand what they're going through, what their environment looks like. If you don't believe me, you guys try to. this the next time you go to get your coffee at whatever shop you frequent, ask that person behind the counter how they're doing. And regardless of what they tell you, you make an educated

guess. And you hit them with, it sounds like you've been getting kicked in the teeth since you walked in this morning. Sounds like your boss is really writing. Or it sounds like today is probably one of the best days you've had in probably three months. Just say that. And watch what happens to them because there are 99 people before you came in and asked the same question. How's it going? Are you doing the day? None of them care. Yep. And so when you show genuine interest in another person, you make their day because it's sad. We're just not, we're not doing it enough personally or professionally. You know, Nate, this sounds like one of our previous interviews with Daryl Davis.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you're familiar. You're familiar with Daryl Davis, Derek. Black jazz musician. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. And his whole thing is, you know, these people hate me who are in the clan. And he never went in trying to change their minds. He just wanted to sit with him and ask them, hey, why do you hate me when you don't even know me? and just let them talk. Let them get it off their chest.

Yep. And a lot of people just finish these conversations like, no, I don't. Why do I hate you? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a fascinating guy.

Fascinating guy. And you've obviously talked to him so you know his path. And it's just an amazing story. But he's, he totally removed himself from the situation and said, I'm uneducated. Educate me. And that's basically what we're telling our counterparts whenever we sit down, that I'm uneducated. Educate me. I know there are pieces of your puzzle that I am missing. Educate me. And because, again, I hate to beat a dead horse, but because most people rarely express that level of interest, I think it was, I can't remember. It may have been Covey, not sure, but the phrase is,

interesting persons become interesting persons. Interested persons become interesting persons. Once you show an interest in someone else, it automatically provokes their interest in you. I have no idea where I picked this up, but I remember hearing it and it just stuck with me. I just never left. Is that the foremost caring words that you can say is not I love you or the three most, it's not I love you, but tell me more. That people are so starved to be heard.

Yes. Now, tell me more. It's not 100% evil, but you'll never hear anybody who's Black Swan Trains. They tell me more because it comes off as a command. Interesting. Interesting. And so I, and listen, I want to be clear about this. I'm not telling you that if you use Tell Me More in a conversation, it's going to blow it up.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm telling you is you have good habits and you have bad habits when it comes to communication. It's not one good habit that's going to turn the deal for you. It's going to be the cumulative effect of a bunch of good habits that make the deal more prosperous for you. It's not one bad communication habit that's going to kill your conversation. It's the cumulative effect of a lot of bad communication habits. And so we're looking for the cumulative effect of the good stuff. You know, it's the equivalent of if I give you the Black Swan Tools and they represent an axe and I stand you next to a tree,

and you look at me and say, how many swings of this axe is it going to take to bring this tree down? I don't know. It depends. But it ain't coming down in one swing. I can tell you that. So it's about staying with the process. Focus on the process. The outcome will take care of it.

self. Very interesting. I want to expand upon just something we touched on earlier as well, too. We covered labels, and then earlier I picked up on a note-oriented question that you did as well, too. But just for anyone who might not be familiar, because I want to make sure that I leave them with the tools and they start kind of trying these things as well. You also spoke about mirror and dynamic silence. And I was wondering if you could just give a little bit on each of those. All right. So the mirror is probably, yeah, it's not a heavy lift as far as the communication skill is concerned. It just requires you to repeat back the last one to three words, no more than five or the last word of significance or importance that the other side gave you.

We use the mirror in place of tell me more. We use the mirror in place of, let's unpack that. You know, and the mirror is just, so for example, she doesn't listen to me anymore and it makes me angry. To mirror that, the person would say, makes you angry? Question. Or makes you angry. I get it. So it's just a, it's a conversational bump, if you will, a nudge that I want them to continue talking without saying the dreaded flip phrase, tell me more. When I inflect upwards in my voice, it turns it into a question. When I say

makes you angry, I'm saying to him, tell me more. How angry? What did she do? How often does this happen? all three of those questions in one label, I'm sorry, one mirror where I just repeated back the last one to three words. Now, the dynamic silence, it should be the easiest of the skills. It turns out it's the hardest. People can't shut their mouths. It blows me away that we are so conditioned to eat up space in the conversation. We are so, we're so conditioned to explain, explain, explain pitch pitch pitch talk talk talk that when the conversation goes quiet we don't know what to do with it and we jump back in and we we break that silence the silence gives the counterpart space an opportunity to reflect so before or after hearing something of significance before or after

saying something of significance. I inject dynamic silence. Shut your mouth. Negotiation is a guided discovery process. What are you discovering if you're talking? You're not discovering anything. You're making it all about you. And so this is where you deliberately create a void in the conversation. And you let that silence sit. for as long as necessary. Based on context. And what I mean by that is I said or heard something of significance

and now I'm going to use dynamic silence. Let's say I said something of significance. And I'm going to say it and I'm going to shut my mouth. And I look at Gary and it's clear that he's fuming on the other side. I'm not going to let that sit for an extended period of time. Because I don't want, again, I'm trying to dissipate negatives. I'm not trying to create them.

And so if out of my diatribe, there was something that hit him wrong and he's over there calling me everything but a child of God in his brain, I got to address that. But the flip side of that is if I look at Gary and I see I see Gary look up into the left, see him look down, he's rubbing his chin. those are all signals that he's processing. And so I'm not going to interrupt his thought pattern at that point. I want him to sit there and think for him to break the silence when he feels ready. And so the average that someone else, that your counterpart is going to let dynamic silence sit, is probably three seconds before they, which is an eternity. Oh, I know.

Yeah. I know. But, and so I tell like my coaching clients, I said, use your dynamic silence. And I want you to count as soon as you start doing it. One, one, one thousand, two, one thousand, three. See how far you go. Making them turn it into a game so they get less squeamish about not running their mouth. Now, I don't know if this was planned or not.

But I will tell you that Friedman interviewed Musk. a couple years ago. And you guys are in a podcast world, so you know how incestuous it is. Everybody's everywhere on every other podcast. So this is like the fourth time, I think, that he interviewed Musk. Anyway, the question was,

I'm paraphrasing the question, but the question was, how long do you think it's going to be before we have a manned base on Mars? And he didn't say another word for 22 seconds. Oh, wow.

And I know it because I'm a geek about that stuff, so I timed it. And so, and the camera was splitting back and forth between Musk and Friedman. And every time it went to Musk, his eyeballs were banging back and forth in his skull. He was actually doing calculations. Oh, it's great.

And then finally he says, best case scenario, five years, year's worst case 10. Wow. And what would have happened if Lex Friedman was impatient? Yep. And decided, oh, this is a podcast. This is 22 seconds of dead air. We're nobody saying anything. This is supposed to be a death sentence for a medium like this. And he let it sit. That takes patience. That takes discipline. It's very hard to do, but it is so impactful. Because again, people are conditioned. to being browbeat, browbeaten, I should say, with goals and objectives of the other side, with people who come into the room and all they want to do is pitch gain and pitch benefit

and pitch opportunity and not really caring about what the other side is feeling or thinking. Wow. And that's the big difference of our stuff, was that we demonstrate that. that we are trying to understand your thinking, your feeling first before we share our thoughts and our feelings with you. That's great. Gary, I have some questions, but do you want to get in there before I jump in? I don't know.

I mean, this power of silence, I didn't really have a question, but it's definitely something that I learned in my very first job at a college. I worked very briefly for a guy that ran a political talk show in D.C. I won't say his name, but he was made fun of on Saturday Night Live multiple times. You may be able to figure out who that was. Yeah. But he had a reputation in the office of being a bit of a bully and trying to get his way. And I had just finished reading a novel you may or may not be familiar with it called the Fountainhead by Ein Rand, where the lead character just kind of did not care what other people thought of him.

And he would just say what he wanted to say and did what he wanted to do, not in an obnoxious type of way, but in a way like, this is what I believe. And if you disagree, that's fine. I don't care. And I had just finished reading. So I was in like complete Howard Rourke mode from that book. and he asked me a question. He went around at the table asking everybody their opinion on something. And if he asked and they responded, he would just sit and glare at them.

And within two to three seconds, they immediately tried to fill that vacuum of silence because they're nervous they had to do it. He asked my opinion of something. I told him and just stared at me. And I just stared right back at him for at least 15, 20, 25 seconds, which is an eternity in the back of my mind thinking, if this guy wants to fire me right now, go ahead. I don't care. Whatever.

And after that was over, he kind of looked. He's like, okay. Very good then. And he moved on. I think he just wanted to see what I would do. I don't know if that exactly relates, but it just made me think of that. And it's funny because guys of that ilk, they conduct themselves in a jerky fashion. Yeah.

And in large part because no one checks them on it. No one calls them on it. And there are people who exhibit it, who exhibit jerky behavior. and are unconscious of it. Because no one has told them, hey, you're being a jerk, right? And so that's what reminded me of some previous clients I had working with who were dealing with difficult people like the one that you described. And I said, hey, there's a way that you can check that behavior without being threatening,

without being offensive, without being insulted. And one of the ways that you did it, obviously, was just by keeping your mouth shut. But there are other ways that you can mitigate someone's counterproductive behavior by highlighting it in a deferential manner. Could you give me an example? What that would kind of sound like? All right. So same scenario, but it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, me and the person that Gary was describing.

If this is persistent counterproductive behavior, what I would say to them is when you continue to fill in the blank, I feel frustrated because, and then I lay out a consequence, something that's going to cost them. So when you, I feel because when you continue to interrupt me during the course of these meetings, I feel frustrated because it feels like you're limiting the paths that we have to move forward. So I'm pointing out, this is me sticking my finger in your chest saying, knock it off. And if you don't see synthesis, this is what's going to happen. So the last part of that phraseology that I message that I just, that I just used was a consequence for them. When I talk about limiting the paths that we have to move forward,

I'm saying that you're putting our agreement, our partnership in jeopardy by continuing to do what you're doing. Without saying, knock it off. Without saying, don't disrespect me like that in front of other people. I was about to say, is it safe to assume that if you do that, ideally it would be done with just you and the other person in the room, not in front of other people so they don't feel like they have to be defensive in front of other people? Ideally, that would be the perfect. And again, I'll give you the standard

hostage negotiation answer. It depends. Yeah. Yeah. Context is everything, right? And so it depends. If I'm dealing with someone who makes it a habit of trying to embarrass other people in a group setting, I mean, repeat it. This happens all of the time. Then I'm probably going to, I'm probably not disciplined enough not to clap back in the meeting. I may have to do that in the meeting, but to your original question in a perfect world, it's best to take it offline. But it depends on certain. It depends on who it is.

For example, if it's a colleague or a peer who routinely tries to shut people down in meetings, oh, I'm going right at it in the meeting. But you got to pick your bad. like I said earlier and you know your direct, I mean, you know your supervisors and your managers and your leaders better than me. So you had to pick your spots. Kind of on that same note, Derek, I'm curious.

And there may not be because it may just be too contextual to actually pull anything apart. Is there anything you can think of in terms of when you might actually coach a client to walk away from the table? If there's things that might come up to go, we're not going to get anywhere or we don't want to work with this person. Yes. So integrity issues, character issues. If you've got, if you've got suspicions about character integrity issues, I don't care what that payday looks at the end of this thing. You are signing yourself up for trouble. If you ignore going back to the intuition again. Guys, women, people that are being disingenuous, that are being, they're showing you that they're ethically challenged, you sign yourself up for that.

that's on you. And so whenever I have a client that's telling me that I really can't trust if this guy is being on the up and up, and I'm like, why are you engaged in the conversation with it? You guys need a part company right now because if he's playing fast and loose with the truth right now, what are you in store for when you get him on the hook? When you guys are contractually obligated to one another, what are you setting yourself up for? And so there are times when, yeah, you got to walk. You know, one of the things that I say at my keynotes, my live events,

hostage negotiators have a success rate of 93%. So what does that mean? That means 7% of the time dude's got to die. And so 7% of the time, deal's got to die. And so there are methods with which you can use to walk. away from a deal without sounding disrespectful, without sounding angry. Because what I want more than anything else, if you and I don't come to an agreement and I got to walk, Nathan, then I'm going to make sure that I leave you feeling positive

about the interaction, even though that we did not come to an agreement. Because I want you to pick up the phone if I were to ever call you again. I want you to respond to an email. if I were to email you again. I want you to go out into your space and say, I had a conversation with Derek last week and we were not able to come to an agreement, but straight shooter, guy was above board,

made me feel decent about the interaction. I'm good. That's how I wanna leave everybody. And so you can let them down softly without being, you know, difficult. But at the end of the day, The last impression is the lasting impression. And I'm going to tell you right now, guys, if I say at the end of the day one more time,

I want you guys to reach the screen and smack me in the mouth. Anyway, the last impression is the lasting impression. I want that people, and especially in tough conversations, people remember two moments. They remember the most intense moment of the negotiation, and then they remember how it ended. And so people get so focused on first impressions. And those are important, but not at the expense of the lasting question. I got a couple questions. And one of them goes back to when you said, you know, 93% success rate.

And I saw that one of your videos. And it's great. It sounds great. And I guess I want to put myself in the position of a skeptic for a moment. Because in my other line of work as an actor, if I, you know, get one out of 20, that's success for me. You know, if I'm batting 050, great. I'm looking really good. You're hitting 93%. And I guess from the position of a skeptic, somebody in our audience might say, well, of course he's going to have a 93% success rate,

because the alternative is a bullet. And you've already talked for a while and explained a lot of really interesting things where I can easily see where that's an oversimplification. Can you maybe talk about why looking at it that way is a bit of an oversimplification, why those skills can be put to use elsewhere? And I guess the other question I have is sort of a two-parter. A Haasa situation is obviously very intense in terms of the stakes, but is it the most difficult negotiation? And are there other settings which you find to be even more difficult? Yeah, between you and your wife. Boom.

All right. So, that's a lot to unpack there. So the first question was, okay, from the skeptic. The skills that I learned and employed as a hostage negotiator are the same skills that I used as a detective. There are people that I had to, detectives are measured on closure rate. How many cases are you closing? And part of our dependence on case closure revolves around our need, ability, skill at getting information from people who are not inclined to. give us information. They usually fall into one of three buckets. Victim, where they're so traumatized

by the event, they can't give me the information I need. Witness, don't want to give me information because they don't want to be viewed as cooperating with the police. Suspect, for obvious reasons, doesn't want to talk to me. And I'm able to get, using these skills, able to get information from them that's going to help me close this particular case. The same skills that I learned as a hostage negotiator are the same ones that I employed as a frontline supervisor when I got promoted to the rank of sergeant. Now I've got a squad of eight people reporting to me. Same skills work with them.

The same skills that I learned as a hostage negotiator are the same ones I used to navigate conversations with command staff above me. And so the same skills that I used as a hostage negotiator are the ones that I used as a high school basketball coach. And so it doesn't matter what the environment is. What matters is, do I have a want or a need? Do you have a want or a need? How are we going to best navigate our wants and needs, especially when they're diametrically opposed to one of the, that's my soul focus. So it doesn't, yeah, ultimately, do decide.

that he doesn't want to die in a hostage situation. But if I can navigate a situation like that and get a person to do something initially that they say they're never going to do. Yeah. Whenever we call in the first time, I ain't coming out. And I get them from that point to the point of the conversation,

which is music to my ears and every event that I was ever a part of, tell me what you want me to do. When you get to that point of the conversation, you know you have established trust-based influence. And now we're ready to get to my goal and objective. When the guy or the woman, usually the guy, though, says, just tell me what you want me to do. That's when I know that I've established enough rapport that I can now influence his decision-making in a positive direction. So takeaway, it doesn't matter what you're talking about. Merger acquisition, Bitcoin transfers, where are we going to eat tonight for dinner,

talking to your kid about doing something in the house? The skills are applicable. It doesn't matter what we talk about. Likewise, it doesn't matter what your counterpart looks like. As long as you're dealing with a human being with a brain and a respiratory system, the skills are going to impact that person. I don't care about culture. You guys, it's not by accident that hostas negotiators in Asia, Africa, North America, South America,

and the Middle East Europe, we're all traded in the same skill set. What does that tell you? That means it's universal because it's based on the human nature response, which dictates negative emotions, negative dynamics, drive decision-making, and drive behavior. Full stop. You get your head around that. you'll start you will start seeing you're going to prosper let's just put in that one um second part of your question was what it was obviously the stakes are highest in a hostage negotiation but is it the

hardest situation to negotiate um is it the hard yeah i she's yeah is okay it might be i was just i didn't know if there was something it's like yeah the stakes aren't as high but i can never seem to win in this other situation. Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes. Now, I will tell you that people often compare and contrast that as well. They'll go, well, Derek, you know, lives were at stake. I don't, I'm not involved in conversations where lives are at stake. And I say, that's true. Lives are not at stake, but livelihoods are. Reputations are. In most conversations, when you get pushed back from the other side, you should immediately think that this is a face saving issue for them. When someone says, Nathan, cut your price or I'm going to a competitor, that's not what they're telling you.

They're telling you, there's something else going on there. And it's usually a face-saving issue. They're usually worried about what it's going to look like, how it's going to impact them if it fails. That's what they're worried about. And so I start digging in. I don't even, he hits me with your price is too high. Cut your price. I'm going to a competitor.

I don't even start talking about price. Most people will immediately go, holy crap, I better give him a discount and I'm going to lose the business. No, that's not what he's telling you. Here's a perfect example. Late 90s. We had a guy drive from North Carolina on a tractor to Washington, D.C., drives his tractor into the reflecting pool and says, I've got bombs on the tractor. I'm going to blow everything up. And so they negotiated with him for many hours.

they get him to the point where he's ready to come out and he throws out an objection. The objection was, you ain't handcuffing me. Now, the negotiators didn't freak out and go, wait, that's against policy. We have to handcuff everybody. They immediately went to,

this is not a real objection. What is he talking about here? If he doesn't want to have handcuffs placed on, what is he really saying? It was dignity. It was respect. There were face issues involved in that. And that's where they went.

Had nothing to do with the actual application of restraints on a person. It had everything to do with the fact that he thought handcuffing was disrespectful. And his dignity, he was going to be embarrassed the whole nine yards. And so one of the takeaways from this particular story is, I want you guys to view every objection as BS. That's not what they are. They're not pushing back against you because your price is too high. The terms are not appealing.

There's something else at play. This goes back to what we've talked about earlier in the conversation, curiosity, curiosity, curiosity. And so I'm going to start pulling it apart with a simple go-to-lake-to-lake. It sounds like you have a reason for saying that and make him or her provide more evidence as to why they're leaning in that direction. And then you can start to figure out what the true motivation is. And when you uncover that by probing a little bit deeper, man, they're so relieved because from their perspective, again, they're begging. Please, please pick up on these subtle hints. Please pick up on it.

That's interesting. I'm sorry, I just have to ask. I want to know how the story ended with the guy with the handcuffs. Like, what eventually happened there? They handcuffed him. Okay, no. But did they promise him to, like, lead him away, like, in a dignified way or something? Yeah, there were, there were some collaboration where they said, we can, we're going to, we're going to erect these sheets.

Nobody's going to be able to see behind the sheets, blah, blah, blah. But you're talking about explosives. We don't want to, you know, we're going to have to pull you away from it before that can happen. So it was, they still had a lot of work to do, but they addressed the dignity issue first. And as soon as they did that, what I say earlier, negative emotions impede, cognitive thinking. And if I were to take that tractor man, that's what we called him, if I would take tractor man out of that particular environment and ask him, is it appropriate for police to handcuff people that they're going to arrest? He would say, of course it is. Sure. He knows. Why couldn't he see it in that moment? because those negative emotions associated with those dignity issues

were clouding his ability to process. It's really cool. I want to, Derek, I'm going to ask you a question that you're not going to like. So that was an excusations audit. Did you notice that, Gary? Yes, I did. Yep. Yep.

Now, you may not have any insight of this at the moment, and I'm not looking anything with regards to any political views or moral judgment just purely out of a negotiation. consulting standpoint. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask because we have currently escalations while there was apparently, I believe, ongoing negotiations between Israel and Iran. Again, you may not have any insight to offer, but I'm curious with that news that's unfolding if there's anything that you've seen between different parties that is an obvious mistake

that you would have coached against. You know, simple light question. Don't worry about it. Gary, silence, buddy. Come on. I think that the horse has left the barn. as far as that conflict is concerned, and I think it happened long before you and I were born. But at the end of the day, oh, God, I said it again.

The reason that things spiral out of control or escalate the way they do is because they don't believe the other side is listening. That's the only reason that we escalate at any point is because we believe the other side, is not listening or has not demonstrated an understanding of what our worldview is. And just the escalation comes from, you know, I've said it. Now I've got to say it louder. That's an escalation. Now I've got to scream it. That's an escalation.

To the point where now things are being thrown, that's an escalation. Because why? They don't feel heard by the other side. This has been a problem between men, mankind, I mean, for, from, since time in memory. Every conflict has been based on not being able to view

the lay of the land from the perspective of the counterpart. And a lot of it has to do with ego. A lot of it has to do with ego. Ego is very powerful. Because again, ego is directly tied to those dignity, those face, those respect issues.

And so, you know, I would tell you that if the, if the factions involved would pick up the book, that was split the difference, it would, it could change things. But like I said, this has been going on for so long. I don't see where the end is going to be in sight because they've got two different. different views. And neither one is prepared or willing to step to the other side, stands shoulder to shoulder and look at the lay of the land from the other side's perspective. We want to, we want to ask them, then we want to make them. That's it. That's that's, that's, that's, that's the, the, the totality of our interaction. Ask and then make. And that's not just, it's not the way to do business. It just sounds like my relationship with my six-year-old son.

Yeah, good luck with that too. No, it's funny because I think it speaks to even the idea of empathy versus sympathy as well, too. You don't have to sympathize with somebody in order to empathize with them and communicate their position. And I think that I agree. I think a lot of people, including nation states, could do better by reading the materials. It's been unbelievably helpful for me as well. And I will even say just two on a couple things. Just one, it's very interesting that once you start learning these skills and diving into this top,

you start to see it everywhere. You start to see the mistakes that people are making everywhere as well, too. And even earlier to your comment on basketball coaching and leadership in law enforcement as well, too, I found it unbelievably helpful. It was your book, Ego Authority and Failure, Chris Voss has never split the difference. And I also like Jocko Willink's extreme ownership. Those were the three books that I had my new kind of like team captains coming up in my old job. I had them all read it. Part of it was that I wanted them to have those skills, but also just to understand where I'm coming from. And it makes for unbelievably improved team dynamics. It was so valid from a leadership perspective, not just negotiations or hostile situations. Yeah.

And your earlier point about the conflict, there's a misconception that I got to like this guy in order to demonstrate this level of empathy. I got to agree with this guy in order for me to display this level of empathy. And I'm going to tell you guys, I didn't like or agree with anybody that I ever negotiated with. I didn't use the skills because I like them. I used the skills because they worked. And so people are. often say to themselves, well, you are taking away my ability to be assertive in this conversation if I focus so heavily on this idea of tactical empathy.

And I'm saying, no, I'm not. In fact, tactical empathy is the required precursor for being assertive. But it's important for you all to be able to just say, in our way, of course, That this is what you, this is how you view the world. And these are the feelings that you have with that associated with that view. There's nothing wrong with saying that. You know, when I'm on the phone with these guys that are inside the crisis site, I'm not, he's holding the baby down with a bottle of draino over the baby's mouth.

What kind of, what kind of affinity am I going to have for a guy like that? None. None. But I know the skills work and I apply them regardless of what I think about the person on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, I've talked with friends who just in other situations, they might think that that is some, you know, frou-frew, hippie stuff that means we have to love the other person

or agree with their tactics or their goals. No, just even for your own benefit, trying to be able to put yourself in other person's choose, not necessarily to think that they're wonderful people, but just so you can better understand where they're coming from and you can negotiate from a better position. It's just, it's a great skill to have. You mentioned something earlier about, about a guy who said something to the effect of he didn't care what people thought about him. I just get so, I'm amused by people who use that statement.

Because if you really didn't care, you wouldn't tell anybody you didn't care. Yeah. True. Right? And so, and if you really don't think that he or she cares about what other people think about them, use an ego label on them and watch them eat it up. When you label them and you say, it seems like your organization could only trust you to bring this in.

Oh, yeah. And watch how their eyes light up and they start, yeah. That's right. Now you know I'm the man. So I just, I just, I get squeamish around people who say, hey, I don't care what anybody thinks about me. Yeah, you do. Or you wouldn't have said it. Well, one thing, I want to catch myself on something that I said when I mentioned earlier about, you know, winning the negotiation. Even that is, it's a weird way to put it.

You know, I don't have to win. There doesn't have to be a winner. Both people can walk out of something better off than where they start. It doesn't have to be I win, therefore you lose. Right. No, for sure, for sure. And we try to minimize the use of words such as that, because at the end of the day, fourth time, that I want you to feel good about the interaction. Because that's the only way you're going to perform. That's the only way you're going to refer. That's the only barometer that I have for the strength and the speed of the agreement. And so I want to make you feel as good as possible at the end of the conversation.

This is why you'll never hear me talk about this idea of win-win, because there is no such thing as win-win. There's win more and win less, but there's no win-win-win. And so how do I make you feel okay with giving me the requested 5% versus what you came in ask you for, which was 2%. How do I make you feel good about that? This is the most important thing. The client that I was talking about earlier, how did he make that attorney in that plane to feel good about the fact that they weren't getting 20 million? And so it's important to look at your counterpart as not an adversary. My goal is to turn my counterpart into a teammate in a problem-solving venture. The problem is whatever we sat down to discuss, how do I make this guy a teammate

in solving this problem? That's my focus. Beautiful. One quick one because I'm curious is, and I do want to be respectful every time there. We've been very generous here. With the earlier example, too, was there a particular skill or moment where the client with the accident situation something really worked or something really changed the direction of things were going? For example, I know we lightly touched on, but we didn't necessarily go over it. Was it like an accusations audit that really spoke to them and helped move things forward? Was there any? Again, it's a cumulative effect.

So the structuring of the conversation is, if I were going to coach you in the structuring a conversation, generally speaking, you're going to start with a summary. I'm sorry, you're going to start with one to four accusations audits about the intrusiveness of the meeting. Every meeting that's scheduled and agreed to is an intrusion on people. I guarantee you, even if they said, yeah, I agree to meet with you on Tuesday, they would rather be doing something else. Yeah. And so accusations audits talking about the intrusiveness of the meeting, a summary, basically talking about this is what led us up to this conversation, right? Vision label. It feels like you've got a vision for what this is going to look like moving forward.

would you be against walking me through that vision? And I'm going to listen. Where does it? Where does it diverge? Where does that merge with what I want? And I'm paying attention. When I hear things that support my position, then I'm going to label those things that support my position because I want to shore it up.

Now, what I didn't think we were going to get into today, but I'll go ahead and share this with you anyway. in the early part of that conversation, I'm also going to do a proof of life with you. And the proof of life is trying to determine, number one, are you really interested in doing business with me? Are you doing due diligence? Are you talking to me because you want to see what I do and how much I'm going to charge so you can take it to Gary who does the same thing and say, this is what Derek said he could do it for, do this for 20% less? And of course, Gary's going to say, yeah, because he wants the business. So I want to smoke those false opportunities out because there's nothing worse than chasing money, chasing a deal that you're never going to get.

It's not a sin for you to not get the deal. It's a sin for you to take a long time to not get the deal. And so I'm going to try to smoke that out with a proof of life. The other thing the proof of life does is I get you to speak my value proposition before I ever have to. And my value proposition coming out of your mouth carries so much more weight. So when I ask you, Nathan, you know, before we get down to the meat of this conversation, why would you ever, of all the options you have, why would you ever consider doing business with me? Now, if he's really fantasized about doing business with me, that response to that question is going to be robust.

he's going to lay it on thick. My value proposition coming out of his mouth. Now, the flip side of that is if it's a cruddy response, like, I don't know, you tell me. That's why we're here. This guy don't want to do business with me. He's telling me to my face. I have not thought about what it would look like partnering.

So he's being disingenuous from the jump. And so I'm going to probe a little bit more, but already the red flag is up. I'm already thinking I'm probably going to walk away from this, this opportunity. And so after the proof of life, after their vision label, I'm going to pull it apart the best I can. The next step of it is now it's my turn because I let them go first. Now it's my turn. I'm just going to say, would you be against me walking you through the realities of the environment or the realities of the

or how things stand now, whatever, followed by dynamic songs, waiting for him to respond. They respond one to three accusations audits right there. This is not what you want to hear. You're going to want to reach through the screen and stab me in the eye with a pen. And you're probably going to think this is a complete waste of your time. And I'm going to let that sit. One one thousand, two one thousand. I want, I want their head going crazy.

What is he going to say? Oh my gosh. This is going to be the worst. thing ever, worst thing ever, worst thing ever, worst thing ever. And then when I start providing my data and information as to why I want to do what I want to do, they're like, wasn't that bad. So I intentionally take them to the far end of the fear spectrum to have them thinking about all kinds of crazy things so that when I get to my, ultimately get to my ask,

it pales in comparison to what they would think. That is incredible. Okay. Last 10 second question. At the end of the day, we are at the decline podcast. And I know that Chris has recently tweeted a little bit about it as well, too. I'm just curious if you've started going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole at all as well. I have not, but I'm usually the one chasing a train after it's left the station when it comes to when it comes to innovative thinking and technology.

So I am behind the curve and apparently I shouldn't be. I should start getting my feet wet. Start dip your toast and it's absolutely worthwhile. Derek, this has been absolutely fantastic. This was so much fun for me in particular. and I know Gary had a good time too, but I was, I love this stuff. Can you please tell everybody where can they follow you? Where can they find your work?

Where can they get ego authority failure? All that fun stuff. All right. So we got ego authority failure at Amazon. It's also an audible. I don't know if you guys have recorded your own voice after writing material, but that was a process that I thought was going to take me three days. And four weeks later, I was still in the studio.

So because I apparently can't read my own writing and string up together. So you can get it at Amazon on Audible. I'm on LinkedIn and Derek M.Gant on IG. And if you have any specific questions, info at black swanltD.com, they usually will route those questions to me. And yeah, that's that's the best way to do it. Or you can actually come to one of our live events if you want to hang out with us in a room where we talk this stuff. and then put you through exercises, you can certainly do that as well.

If you enjoyed this episode with Derek, please do like, share, and subscribe. And check out the previous episode with Madex on Art, Bitcoin, and Alberta Sovereignty.