BTC Sessions - MicroStrategy JUST Dropped $84B Bitcoin BOMBSHELL | Lyn Alden, Robert Breedlove, Dale Warburton

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

MicroStrategy just dropped an $84B Bitcoin bombshell, and it has the entire crypto world on high alert. Lyn Alden, Robert Breedlove, and Jason Warburton break down what this means for Bitcoin’s future and global finance.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/LynAldenContacthttps://x.com/Breedlove22https://x.com/Dale21MFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCp#btc #bitcoin #crypto

Micro Strategy just had their Q1 earnings call, and it was insane, but not everyone is celebrating. Over the past year, their stock has jumped nearly 250 percent. Their Bitcoin stack now sits at over 553,000 coins, and year to date, they posted a 13.7% Bitcoin yield. They've turned a software company into a full-blown Bitcoin accumulation machine. And 150,000 people tuned in live to watch their earnings call just yesterday. But now they want to go even further. They've sent shockwaves by upping their capital plan from $42 billion to $84 billion, doubling down on a strategy that something walks on a razor's edge.

The tradeoff, more Bitcoin and the Treasury, but way more share dilution. So the question is, is this still the smartest Bitcoin bet on Wall Street? Is this move a benefit to shareholders despite the dilution? Or is this the moment where conviction turns into overreach? Today, I've got an incredible panel of guests to discuss this and much, much more. Lynn Alden, founder of Lynn Alden Investment Strategy, and author of Broken Money, Robert Breedlove, host of the What Is Money podcast exploring the philosophy of Bitcoin and Sound Money, and Dale Warburton, Managing Mentor at Bitcoin Mentor in Australia,

and host of the Y Bitcoin Show. Stick around. You're not going to want to miss a beat. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your bullish session. All right, bringing in our guests, I want to welcome to the stage, Lynn Alden, Dale Warburton, and Robert Breedlove. Thank you all so much for being here. Very glad to have you.

and I'm just going to kind of get us rolling right away with the topic at hand really quick. I'm going to just rattle off a few little things that came about in this earnings call. And I kind of just want to get some of your takes on it. Before I do, though, I have a very, somebody messaged me immediately before the show, and they said, you have to say hi. So, Lynn, Yellow says hi. Hello, Yellow. He's all that he posted a meme from the Simpsons.

like a custom one. So I saw that. Perfect. Perfect. I would have been remiss if I didn't, I didn't say that. But either way, let's take a quick look over at the strategy Q01 financial results. So again, 13.7% Bitcoin yield, you know, an increase in Bitcoin held. $61,497 Bitcoin gain. Maybe I'll put us all over to the side. so we can look pretty together. $5.8 billion Bitcoin gain and 553,500,5005,000 holdings at a total cost of $37.9 billion or $68,000,000.

$68.5k per coin. They are doing a new $21 billion at the market common stock offering. They're increasing their yield target this year from 15 to 25%. they're increasing their Bitcoin gain target from $10 billion to $15 billion. And so, again, as I alluded to off the top of the show, some people are not happy in and around the dilution and the speed at which it's happening. So I'm just going to show you a couple hot takes that I came across on Twitter. Dear MSDR shareholders, you're getting bent. Sailor needs to sell more common stock, which he knows the shareholders won't like.

Therefore, he disguises it as a 42-42 plan, despite having. $20 billion of unsold preferred remaining from the previous plan. Why not issue at all? Anyone who knows basic accounting can see the graph so clearly. He wasn't kind in the tweet, but I'm going to read it just to kind of get takes here. The answer is that he can't sell the preferred because it costs 10% interest, and there's negative cash flow from the operations, which, of course, would be a Ponzi if he did.

So to avoid the Ponzi sailor has no intention of selling $42 billion more in fixed income products. It's all going to be common stock. which has zero cash costs to the entity and tiny little drops of preff and converts to keep the fanboys hopeful. The other one that I saw pre-call, this person, Dana, said, remember the last earnings call, 21 billion ATM was supposed to be executed over a three-year period, and they did it in a single quarter. So now at this earnings call, I'm going into it with a grain of salt. will he even stick to a plan he announces?

And then he said, again, 16 billion left in the convertible notes. So announcing more ATM today before he even goes through with that is demoralizing. So again, there's some shareholders that are still like gung-ho on the plan, accumulate more Bitcoin, more Bitcoin for share. And other people are very concerned at the pace of dilution. And on top of that, we've got Jack Mallor's new entity. We've got a lot of competition in the space, but we also have things like the government of Norway and Switzerland that are owning micro strategy just to get exposure without, it kind of seems exposure to Bitcoin without explicitly showing it. So anyways, with that in mind, Lynn, I maybe want to jump to you because I'm sure a lot of people are curious about your take on the call and what you heard.

So go ahead, give a rip. So I actually like the call. So I'm going to disagree with at least most of the negative takes. Happy shareholder since August 2020 when they announced the Bitcoin plan. So the funny thing is I didn't love the initial 21, 21 plan because I didn't like the even equity and debt proposition. That in my view was more debt than I would have preferred should they have issued it all. But I also point out in a tweet at the time that that's just an estimate because they can only issue as long as there's demand for it, especially the equity. And that's very easy to measure.

If the premiums over NAV by a comfortable margin, it makes every sense of the world for them to issue more shares and buy more Bitcoin with it. And then the preferred, that's more of a complicated thing to measure, but basically bond market demand for it. And so, you know, when I went long microchadity back in the next to the next commodity, first they were buying Bitcoin. Then they were issuing debt to buy Bitcoin. I was like, okay. Then when they were issuing like third and second and third rounds to buy Bitcoin, I was like, is this getting a little bit much maybe? But then when they started issuing equity to buy more Bitcoin,

I was like, that's actually de-risking it. That's improving like the asset stack compared to the debt levels at the cost of share dilution. But that makes sense as long as a premium to nav is high. And so it is true in that one tweet that they have issued, that they've not issued as much debt as they said they were planning to. They've issued more equity, and now they're talking about issuing more. I think they're going to continue to be equity heavy, which I understand that some shareholders don't like. I actually prefer that because I view that as the more conservative strategy.

The only thing they would ever really concern me about their strategy, if they have too much debt, that opens them up to, say, a five-year window where Bitcoin performs poorly, and then they enter some sort of liquidation cycle or troubled refinancing cycle, which is still, you know, I think they're terming that out pretty well. But I always err on the side of caution. So I tend to like the equity focused approach. And also I would say that buyers have to be cautious. They have to be responsible because back when Mike Shadger is trading it three and a half times nav. Everybody on Twitter was saying you can go higher and higher. I can go to 10 times nav. Why not go to the moon? Right. And people were buying into that. So no wonder that some of them are going to be sensitive to share dilution because they bought at a price. that is not conservative. There's no official range for what it can reach, but you're taking out a lot of risk

when you're buying it three or three and a half times nav. So far, what I've done with microchrategy is that, you know, for the most part, I hold Bitcoin. In certain brokerage accounts, I'll hold microchrategy.

And whenever it hits like three times nav, I actually trim part of my position out. So I've actually removed a big chunk of my, like, more than my cost basis. Everything I'm playing with now is like house money. And I plan to keep letting it run. And if it ever enters these people, of euphoria, I tend to take a little bit of chips off the table. Whereas if it ever kind of

comes back down, sometimes I add a little bit more. And I think that's an approach worth considering, or at least whenever it's at a high premium, just manage expectations. They're going to dilute you. Every time, every time the premium's super high, the market is basically screaming for them to issue more equity and buy more Bitcoin with it. One last quick question before I get the takes of Robert and Dale here, even just in general. When you watched Jack Mallor's announcement, what to you sounds more compelling now, 21 or micro strategy, or are they just entirely different beasts, in your opinion? I would say they're different. I think, I mean, sailors been trying to get others to do the strategy since like 2020. And it took a while for it to

happen. Now it's happening. I think it's good that there should be one in every currency block. So if you're, you know, like, Metaplanet in Japan makes sense. You know, it's basically a free lunch in any sort of like currency market where there's not one of these to go make one of it's legal. As far as multiple in the U.S. doing it, there is a network effect advantage for being number one because you have way more liquidity. And like options markets are pretty challenging to get liquidity for because every single strike price and every single duration on the option is basically a different security. And so it's not just like one stock where there's a decent amount of liquidity. if you've got 20 different strike prices based on 10 different durations of what that option is,

that's 100 different option contracts. And it's hard to get all of them to be liquid on anything other than the biggest one. That same thing happens with the ETFs. So for example, if you're the top one or two in your ETF category, you're likely to have a liquid options market. Whereas if your ETF number five in that category, your options market is going to look like a ghost town. So there's always going to be an advantage to the first mover, the largest, most liquid. Dale, I'm curious to hear.

Are you, do you dabble in any of this stuff or you just, you just holding on to stats? Like me personally, all I've really gotten in micro strategy is just some stuff that I couldn't, like I would have taken a hit, taking it out of a traditional account. But I'm pretty much just Bitcoin. Where do you sit in this? Do you have any thoughts? Today, I certainly just have Bitcoin. Originally in 2020, 21, I thought I would diversify quotes and quotes and buy micro strategy.

And then as soon as I played games on things like Blockfire, I needed to find some liquidity and then, you know, got rid of micro strategy. So no longer a happy shareholder. And I don't have any other interesting takes other than I'd love to get Lynn's take on what are the potential risks associated with the strategy that's being implemented. and how can it unwind? I'm having to answer that. Do you want to go to Robert first? Sure. I mean, let's, I mean, no, no, I think that's Lynn's question for sure.

I'm happy to listen. Sure. So as I outlined before, I would be concerned if their debt levels got relatively high. It's hard to measure exactly how high, too high is. But generally speaking, the more debt there is relative to their equity and their Bitcoin, the more of a chance that they could run into a bare market problem. Now, they are terming, that out pretty significantly. So they're, I mean, they're doing calculations to basically say that

Bitcoin would have to be in more than a four-year bear market for them to run into serious trouble, where they'd either have potentially trouble refinancing their debt or having to sell Bitcoin in order to, you know, meet their obligations. But that is one of the negative scenarios that could happen is if they get over leveraged and Bitcoin enters longer than normal bare market. other potential tail risks are hack risk. As far as I know, they diversify their custodians. I haven't kept up on all of their filing, so I don't know if that changed or if they moved that around, but I know historically they had three different custodians that they used.

So forgive me if I'm not super up to date on what they're doing with that. And also tail risk of, you know, it's a giant honeypot. If the U.S. government has a problem, they know where the Bitcoin is. Same thing for, you know, Black Rock. So Bitcoin IOUs are not the same as Bitcoin. So I think that it makes, I think they're doing the right strategy for them. And I understand concerns that people have around concentration. But it's an open protocol.

They're buying a lot. They said they're going to buy a lot. They are buying a lot. Others have had 16 years to stack. They still should be stacking other people. So I always like to see more diversified Bitcoin holdings wherever possible. But basically, I would say the most reasonable risk is just debt terms relative to the market cycle, which so far they've navigated. But, you know, it's always a risk.

Let's jump to Robert here. I'm curious, just again, your general takes in and around what Sailor has done over the past number of years. Again, you had an epic sit down, multiple sit downs with him, one of the craziest series put together, I think, in Bitcoin podcasting. But I'm curious your take on kind of where he's at what has come to fruition over the past number of years and where you see it headed. Well, I think he is running a very brilliant macro strategy, which I think is the first thing I ever said to him. And we sat down to record that podcast. And I'm honestly surprised that there aren't more businesses imitating this strategy. Like we're just now starting to see people pick this up.

and you're starting to see the memetic pattern unfold. I just thought it would happen a lot faster. You know, like performance-wise and Lynn, someone, they're unrivaled, right? As far as I know, like they're smoking. I see the charts he's posting on his Twitter. He's smoking NVIDIA. He's smoking even buy and hold Bitcoin. Like, is there anything that even holds a candle to micro strategy?

Nothing of that scale. I mean, sometimes if you go down to penny stocks, you can find something that went from one penny to, you know, But anything of scale and liquidity that actually funds can buy at scale, nothing's never reached in. Yeah, the guy's got balls made a fucking titanium. And he's reaping the benefits. And so good for him. I'm just surprised there hasn't been more imitation yet. And I don't know.

I expect to see that in this bull cycle. It seems like all the channels are open this time. We've always, in cycles past, institutional capital is coming. You know, there's always this kind of parade and all the holders think, about to get rich on the backs of all these large institutional capital pools. I think, yeah, it seems like the playing field is set for something like that. And I think they started with an $800 million market cap, if I recall correctly. And now the numbers you showed earlier was a $5.8 billion dollar denominator of Bitcoin gain.

Yeah. I mean, so their dollar denominated Bitcoin gain in 2025 is a multiple of, their market cap in 2020. I'm honestly shocked. There's not more business leaders emulating this strategy. Like that's that's my core. I don't I'm not in the nitty gritty as much as Lynn and like I don't have a lot of details about it. But hats off to him. One thing I would add here, maybe just a little bit. And I don't know if this is correct. It seems like it kind of you were talking about issuing the debt and then issuing the common stock to acquire more Bitcoin that kind of had a resonance of Gresham's law to it for me. Like you're kind of like,

selling the worst shit first before you dig into the common sock and really start diluting. And so I'm not sure it's as if every business in the world will ultimately need to sell all of their quote unquote shit coins to get as much Bitcoin as possible. Now, I know I'm not saying micro strategy common sock is a shit coin or whatever, but it's a representation of the ultimate asset that has ever existed. So again, it seems like one of these inevitable pathways that other businesses and business leaders will follow. And I'm surprised it's not happening faster. I'm going to just tag in and say, to a degree, I was surprised until I realized it's really just a parallel of how I look at regular

people every single day, too. Why don't you get Bitcoin? They froze our bank accounts. They printed 40% of the money in a couple of calendar years. Why do you not have Bitcoin? It's just now playing out at a much larger scale where some people are getting it and benefiting and others are eyes closed sailor himself once said to me that there's only a certain flow rate at which a profound idea can propagate through human society and like maybe that's what we're dealing with there's a bunch of people that have just taken the orange pill and been swimming down the rabbit hole for multiple years and there's a lot of people that think we're crazy and in a cult and they're probably a little bit right. At least we have the best money. That's fair. That's fair. Well,

one thing I would add real quick, because I see in the chat, people talking about centralization, I would point out that GBTC had more Bitcoin at their peak than Microstrategy has now. So Microw Strategy has $500,000 and change, whatever the number is. Grayscale had over, it's comfortably over $600,000 at their peak before the ETF conversions allowed all the Bitcoin to drain and go to cheaper ETFs and places like that. And then if you go back really far, I mean, places like Mount Gox, the percentage that were like trading on one exchange in the early days. So I would say people that are concerned here in 2025, I mean, if they weren't equally

concerned in, say, early 2021, late 2020, just keep that in mind, that there are these pockets of centralization that happened, potentially a bigger issue, just how many coins are sitting at Coinbase, because a lot of these entities use Coinbase for some or all of their transact of their custody. So you've, I think, a couple million coins at Coinbase. That's a pinch of a bigger issue. Ideally, you want ETFs to hold it at different custodians like Fidelity's doing. They're holding their own coins rather than all just being like an overland top of Coinbase. I would like to see more diversification there. So I do think that there are valid concerns around centralization, but this is by no means as centralized as Bitcoin has been

and in many ways far from it. Do you guys see solutions like what's been done with Anchor Watch becoming a bit more of a norm in the future for big funds like this but also for individuals and do you also see the do you see an impending normalization of of a proof of reserves as well anybody can jump in anybody else want take that I'm happy to jump in I actually spoke with Rob Hamilton this week and you know one of things we spoke about was you could argue that any of the custodians currently charging a fee based on asset under management are enjoying an asymmetry of information. They're taking advantage of, I guess, the fact that a lot of people are not interested in looking after them in Bitcoin,

but increasingly, I think we're going to see a demand placed upon custodians to have, at the very least, one, insurance in the event of loss of keys or whatever the case may be. Yeah, and then two, of reserves. So I think absolutely increasingly is going to become the case. And as we see, as we see sort of a lot of competition with the ETFs and, you know, I think it's ultimately like a race to the bottom in terms of that asset's under management fee, but they'll have to, in order to justify it, have some sort of aspect that includes insurance. That's kind of where I landed with him. Fair enough. Well, I think at this point, we're going to shift gears a little bit here. We've been chatting about micro strategy and what's going on over there.

But I'm very curious to hear all of your reasons for being bullish, which is kind of the meat of the show. And I just want to kind of hear about what's currently top of mind for you guys. What's currently exciting in your worlds. And so I think I'm just going to go in the order that I have on my screen here. So, Lynn, I'm going to toss it back to you. I'm going to queue you up with the same question. Everybody will get this evening. Why are you bullish?

I'm bullish because Bitcoin works. which people I think often forget or take for granted. So for example, one of my banks is a big four bank that I use for international wire transfers and business banking and all that, all that kind of boring stuff. And like all day today, they've had wires offline because of some technical vendor issue. So just can't send wires. Just money is just stuck in this little controlled pocket. Whereas Bitcoin's still putting out blocks, still working.

there's always drama around it, but it's still working. And I think that people forget about that. And I would say that as far as this whole kind of corporate centralization thing, none of that impedes Bitcoin from working. It's not even at the current time raising fees. I mean, one of the concerns is obviously when 10x more people want to use Bitcoin. There could be fee pressure on the main chain, which could elevate smaller users to higher layers of the network, which has tradeoffs. But at the current time, you have kind of the perfect world, which is that there are these big pools of capital buying it. And yet, it's a permissionless network. Anyone's free to use it.

I would like to see more people, you know, directly use it. I'd like to see more retail buyers buy it and take self-custody of it. I invest in businesses that try to make that possible and encourage it. So I always like to see more of that. But Bitcoin works. And I mean, if people are concerned around micro-strategy buying or BlackRock buying or government's buying, basically what they're saying is that the weakness of Bitcoin from large entities, like the way that they want to kill Bitcoin is to buy it. Like if that's, if that's

Bitcoin's weakness, if large entities buy it and that hurts it, then it was never meant to be. I look at metrics like, because it's proof of work, not proof of stake, I'm somewhat less concerned around ownership concentration. It still affects price, potentially, but I'm more, I'm more concerned around market functioning. So I look at things like minor centralization, minor supply chain centralization, mining pool centralization, things like that, you know, no distribution, stuff like that, less around the custody aspect. And in addition, so a lot of people are also concerned around stable coins eating into Bitcoin's

market share for payments, which, one, it's not taxable for the most part. So entities gravitate toward that. And also for people that are using it as like working capital, so savings for like three months that you're going to send around and receive payments, people, you know, a lot of times, especially in emerging markets, people spend in a month what they made in that month. They can't risk a 10 or 20 or 40% drawdown, which Bitcoin can do sometimes. So they have like these working balances.

But part of Bitcoin reaching that level is when more and more entities own it. And it's five times larger than it is now. and you can't have like a single like FTX in the Bahamas blow up and then send the price around affecting everyone's money. So part of the maturation process is that more entities buy it. That'll include small entities, big entities, potentially sovereign entities. Pretty much the whole stack is buying it. If it ends up being a global reserve asset and a global reserve money, it basically means everybody's going to own it in some way or another. Now, the path dependence still matters.

The ideal optimal utopian scenario is all little people get in first, then the bigger people come in and like nation states are last, right? You don't want like Apple to come out and buy, you know, become the biggest Bitcoin holder after they've already kind of played the Fiat game really well for three decades, right? But as a permissionless network, you can always choose who figures it out earlier. That's why a lot of us engage in education. Like, I mean, most people here are, they have platforms or they individually work with people to help people learn about Bitcoin, self-custody Bitcoin, just relentless education to try to get out

there and say, hey, before companies come in and just bid up the price to, you know, multiple six figures, try to learn about it and buy some. So I think people can keep doing their part for education. And everyone has to kind of like, there's different things you can do. Like you can educate, you can invest in companies that make it easier to self-custody, all sorts of things you can do. But basically, everything I'm seeing now is still good for Bitcoin. And I'm bullish because it continues to work. I love that.

You know, that strikes hits home with me again, watching, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a few years back watching Canadian bank accounts getting shut down, but what was still working, you know, Bitcoin. Bitcoin was the one digital mechanism that could actually reach its intended recipients, despite the best efforts of the Canadian government in that situation. And, you know, we see a lot of it working with the HRF. Again, when some people don't want you to be able to transact, Bitcoin is a kind of a shining beacon that allows you to actually continue to do that. So, Robert, I want to jump to you if you have comments, questions, threads that you want to go down based on Lynn's topic. Go ahead.

Yeah. I mean, to echo, well, to extend what Lynn was saying, actually, I think it's actually really fortunate. The way, obviously, Bitcoin emerged from the bottom up. But it does seem like we're not going to get that perfect path dependent outcome where you get, you know, the holiest of the holy adopting first. and then the evil adopting late, you're not going to get that, right? This is a real world, it's messy. There's a lot of people that have accumulated a lot of capital

in the fiat regime. They're going to figure out Bitcoin first and deploy it. However, it does, what's that old saying? That nothing is more difficult for a man to understand than a thing that his paycheck depends on him not understanding. And so I do feel at least the idea that central banks are going to be pretty damn late to this game, you know,

before they actually see what this thing. It's difficult, right? Because they have very low cost of acquisition. They're probably already acquiring to some extent as like an insurance policy against its ultimate success. But I think market actors properly speaking are going to get there first. They might not get there as big, but I think, I guess what I'm trying to say is I hope central banks also get Bitcoin at the price they deserve,

like the rest of us. So that just is an extension of what Lynn was saying. And then as far as why I'm bullish, Oh, don't drop it yet. We can't, we can't. Oh, save it. Save it. Okay.

Save it. We can't, we can't spoil it. I do, again, to echo what you're saying, you know, it would be really nice if we could have the little guys benefit the most first. And the one thing that's kind of thrown me for a loop right now, I guess it, I feel like, we're seeing is again the the little guys that are most disenfranchised like the people who just are experiencing financial censorship they're beginning to clue in and utilize that again which we see a lot with the people working with the human rights foundation and then you've got the other people on the far other end of the spectrum whose job it is to protect the most capital that aren't

printing the money themselves they're they're getting it um but you know by and large again retail seems to be asleep right now nobody like everybody's just kind of asleep walking through everything. But hey, I suppose it'll take some time. Dale, I want to go to you again, get your thoughts here as well. Yeah, as sort of Lynn started talking about the challenges of moving relatively large sums of money, just as I think my ears pricked up because we're currently doing some international transactions of six figures and trying to shift that across Australia.

And I can't tell you, it's like nails on chalkboard. It's absolute health. Whereas you can actually do, you could do like $10 or $100 billion in 10 minutes final settlement. So it's remarkable that, you know, here in 2025, there are just so many obstacles to getting money across borders. And what I'm trying to sort of share that message to people is like, hey, you know, isn't that kind of a signal that it's not your money? You have to go into a branch. You have to sit on the phone for 30 to 60 minutes for them to transfer your money. It just feels as as if that fundamental kind of consumer-driven mindset, you know, where they actually work for you,

is not there. It's almost like they're doing you a favor by allowing you to move your own money, which is a very kind of warped way of thinking about it. And then just to kind of jump into what Robert was saying, you know, to the extent that people's jobs rely on them not understanding it, it's absolutely always been the case, I think, with Bitcoin that, you know, I guess the incentives drive the outcome. And so if you are somebody who has benefited from playing financial, you know, the Fiat financial game, then I think certainly you have less incentive to debt. deeper and to figure out what money actually is. And until you've actually gone and done that, it's not likely that you're going to find

something like Bitcoin compelling. Whereas if you think about folks like, you know, I'm from South Africa and we haven't had hyperinflation, but we certainly know a lot of people in Africa who haven't experienced that, they get Bitcoin inherently quicker because they actually have that lived experience of seeing sort of one months to the next, things are 50% more expensive. So, but yeah, unfortunately. it's never going to necessarily progress the way that we'd like to in an ideal war, but that's just how Bitcoin works, I think.

I think the wires is actually a really good entry point for people, because almost everyone has sent a wire transfer at some point. And at least in the U.S., my experience, international wires have been painful, but even more so with domestic wires, interestingly enough, like they're asking so many fucking questions. And every time they ask me questions, I'm like, wait a minute, this is private property, right? It's private. It's called private property for a reason.

Or at least that's the idea of what it's supposed to be. So not only are they, it's not private, right? They're asking you questions about spending your resources. But then you also realize further that it's not property because the purchasing power is getting debased all the time. So you're just, it's a, it's a complete fucking scam. So if people haven't like gone into what is money, what is Bitcoin Rabbit Hole, like just think about your experience of a wire transfer.

You work really hard to obtain the thing. You own yourself. you obtain the thing, you put it in the bank, then the bank holds it hostage and tells you you need to answer all of these questions and jump through all these other hoops and pay the fee while we're inflating your currency. It's a great scam, I think, to the realization of a great entry point to the realization of the scam of fiat currency, I think, just that day-to-day embodied experience of interacting with wire transfers that most of us have. It reminds me of that meme, quote unquote, my money in the bank.

well, it's not a bank. It's not money and it's not yours. You don't have money in a bank. I know it's something we all, like I have, we all do, but we also don't. I think it's very important for people to consider what that means. And to your point about people outside of the U.S. rocking this fast or earlier or quicker, it's because of the pain, right? They've lived through the pain.

They have the informed experience of the scam that they're actually participating in. They're just a little bit further down the curve than us lucky Americans with no hyperinflation in the U.S. dollar yet. So yeah, I'll leave it to that. Just anecdotally, I'm just curious, did any of you see that clip today, and maybe I'll just, I'm not going to play it, but I'll just kind of bring it up beside us. Did anybody see this clip today of some guy in the UK walk, oh, wrong one, my bad. This clip today of there's a guy in the UK and he's walking around. He had a thousand dollars, a thousand pounds in cash.

And they basically just took it from him because he couldn't prove why he had it or what it was for. So just civil asset forfeiture in the video. They're not articulating that it was proceeds of a crime. They just said it's, it's, you can't prove why you have it. And so we're basically taking it away because it could be part of a crime. It's pretty wild. And I mean, there is some of that in the U.S. too, like the civil asset forfeiture laws

where they can implicate your money in a crime and it's on you to prove that it wasn't because the money itself doesn't have rights. It's wild, this kind of stuff. So, I mean, even when you have physical cash at times, it can be deemed not yours. So, you know, this is why we Bitcoin, right? And to Lund's point. Exactly. Well, we are going to take a brief little break when we come back.

Dale, I'm going to you. I'm going to find out why you're bullish. Everybody watching, if you're enjoying this, please do smash that like button. It really does help. So we'll be back in just one minute and get your lightning while it's ready because we're going to give away some sets on the other side of the break, too. See you guys in a sec. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the U.S. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000.

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You can head over to Debify.com to check them out or simply scan the QR. All right, we are back in. I'm over here on Bitcoin. Well, if you want to check them out, there is a QR code on the screen where you can sign up today. But great place to stack stats in Canada and the U.S. And we're going to do a quick little giveaway here. The way it works is you sign up, you buy Bitcoin, you refer friends. You can earn points for all those things.

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But with that, let's continue on. And Dale, I'm going to toss it to you. Same question everybody gets. Why are you bullish? I've got a very complicated Bitcoin thesis, which is basically like, if someone like Lynn is bullish, then I'm bullish. But, no, like, I mean, there's so many things in Bitcoin that I'm uber bullish about. I mean, you know, we were talking in 2021 about, you know, the institutions are coming and they actually are here already.

Sovereigns are interested and, you know, there's increased regulatory clarity. When I talk to people, I kind of go, it's like green light, green light, green light. Like I'm not seeing like major long-term headwinds. There's always going to be challenges, obviously. But I'm, you know, directionally, I think things are looking really positive. There's no certainties in this world, but I feel increasingly that, like Bitcoin, it feels inevitable. Obviously, it's not foolproof,

but it just feels like we've crossed the chasm where it's now can go to zero. I don't think there's any such possibility. All the, all the fud from the last cycle, I think has kind of been quashed. That's just kind of my sense. I think there's a brilliant sort of macro backdrop. Linn's obviously much better at articulating that, I think.

And personally, it's just something that I've noticed. I think that people are increasingly seeing the difference between kind of crypto and Bitcoin. But I suppose the thing that I'm actually most bullish about is really like Bitcoiners. And I'll just share like a really brief story about that. So, you know, I'm South African migrated to Australia like seven years ago. Even though we share a lot of cultural similarities, it's still different. And so, you know, even though I'm living here, I think in some sense, I'm always going

to be an African living in Australia. And, you know, it was kind of hard to integrate. It's pretty socialist, I think very collectivist. You could say a nanny state in many respects. And so it's like, well, how do I actually make it work? In South Africa, you know, we just get things done. We don't rely on the government. That's just not how things work.

And so what I have found Solis-in is the Bitcoin community and Bitcoiners. And I find like, Bitcoiners are just some of the most exceptional people. We disagree. We argue. In fact, like, you know, we, we actually like tend to be quite disagreeable by nature. However, what I have found in general in all my interactions with people through my podcast in real life is that like there are just such high integrity people. We are intellectually curious. We sort of, you know, we like to go deep down various rabbit holes.

We are ready to revisit our prior assumptions. Like, I mean, we first have to figure out like what money is. A lot of Bitcoin is also aren't into material things, which. I really love, you know, like a crypto bro is, you know, the first thing I'll do is buy like a Ferrari, whereas there's Bitcoiners who are like Uber wealthy who are actually are driving, you know, shitboxes. And it's just, it's really good to see. And I think like there's this quest for truth, and self-improvement. And when you look at the world today, so many people are frazzled and it's fragmented and there's unhappiness and there's inequality and division and people are

screening each other. And so whether you, you know, left or right or this religious affiliation or the next like bitcoiners share a sense of rational optimism for the future because i think we've been able to take our surplus savings stored in the soundest money that that's ever existed and we actually have a future that we're really excited about so i'm just uber bullish on bitcoins as a collective i like that makes me makes me think of all the all the bick pointers that are uh uh uh optimistic enough to be popping out babies at the cadence that i I've seen in my Twitter feed is something else. Bitcoiners definitely are building families like wild.

So, yeah, I mean, and I love to see it. And it does give you that optimism for the future. Like you feel more confident that you'll be able to save and provide for your family moving forward, that your kids will be okay. Yeah, and again, the curiosity and the willingness to question things from Bitcoiners. I think that's one of the things, you know, when you talk about Bitcoiners as a collective. I like that Bitcoiners question basically everything. Like there's every time that somebody says something, you're going to get another Bitcoin in the comments, playing devil's advocate to it, right? Saying, wow, you're completely wrong about that.

And I think that's a feature, not a bug. Even, even like the people that are hard, like most hard line about it, I think that. that in general, setting that threshold of expectation and at least having like the people that are most adversarial thinkers, even just around like self-custacy and all that kind of stuff, those qualities are actually good to have, especially for a subset of the group, because it moves that the expectation more towards best practices and actually thinking things through. So yeah, you know, I, I, uh, I echo you. I, you know, I feel like I found my, my tribe here as well. I'm curious to hear from, uh, Robert and then maybe Lynn. Um,

well, it's kind of, I don't want to pre answer my question, but it was part of the question, part of the answer to the question. Um, but since it's going on, you know, I tweeted it the other day that when you see a cohort of highly even hyper disagreeable people, all agreeing very strongly about one thing, you should probably take that thing seriously. What is the gravity of that consensus cluster that gets all these disagreeable, the most disagreeable among us to agree on this one thing? And so that should tell you something, right?

It's a very strong signal. For me, it was the experience of going to Bitcoin conferences early on. And like, I had already gone down my own rabbit hole, right? Zobo was kind of my entry point. and then it became maximized by Safedin and like all that reading you know like when you first get into it you're just reading hours and hours and hours a day but when i finally started

interacting with bitcoins because that's like that's your own path of research right you could have just made it up right you don't like you think you see a thing but you don't know if it's a mirage you don't know right it's your own research you need the the consensus of the group to strengthen it and And so when I actually started beating Bitcoiners and you meet all of these very smart, very tech forward, largely very ethical, highly motivated, mostly young, but also some old people, that made me pretty convicted in Bitcoin. It deepened my conviction to a level that I, I said it took it to infinity, basically, right? Like, I'm all in. I've got the Bitcoin tattoo. I have one tattoo on my entire body and it's a Bitcoin logo, right?

like skin in the game all in. But it came through that that consensus cluster and the quality of the individuals that I've interacted with in person. And so you combine that with, you know, there's this like great awakening going on in the world broadly, you know, people or COVID has accelerated the matrix moment for a lot of people. And I think the orange pill is kind of like the culmination of that journey, even if people don't realize they're headed towards Bitcoin. They probably are if they continue down any of

the awakening pathways far enough. So you combine that with the fact that the currency counterfeiting curve went parabolic in 2020. Yeah, I think these are good things. These are good things for Bitcoin. Robert, I'm curious. Do you have any moments, especially early on, your first interactions in person with Bitcoiners that stand out to you? Like was there a favorite kind of first interaction or like early person that you met that really kind of stood out to you? Yeah, Brandon Quidam. I had read Mycelium of Money, which is an amazing piece.

If no one's read it, I guess it was, it was 2017, I'm pretty sure. And we met at Arawan in L.A. And he's just another like Viking kind of bro dude that's into, you know, he knows so much about mushrooms and mycelial networks. And we just nerded out for like two hours at the grocery store, eating some super healthy food. And it was just like the first tribal interaction in the Bitcoin community. And it was a very good one. And we've been friends ever since.

That's awesome. Lynn, I'm curious to hear about, again, becoming part of this community and kind of your foray into Bitcoin and your interactions and the relationships that you've built. What's your general feel? How has it been for you? I would say, I mean, the conferences in particular are great. People are just super nice. And you'd be like with the number of people and the number I've been to, you would think that I would have at least more examples of things going wrong.

And I have hardly any examples of things going wrong. It's like the worst cases are like a couple awkward interactions or something. Like really nothing bad despite a fairly large sample size. And I'm always like the energy is high. I'm always surprised at how international they are. Like, there's just people from all these different countries at any given conference that they all flew in from, which is super engaging. So I'm always super happy about that.

And I would pick up on, so Dale mentioned that, like, a cool thing about Bitcoiners is, like, a lot of them will drive, like, older cars and stuff. And, you know, the meme is like Lambos. In reality, it's more like, you know, use trucks and, like, you know, old trucks and stuff like that. I think actually, like, cars are kind of like an interesting. analogy for Bitcoin because when cars became popular, when they had their kind of rise of technological adoption and they became affordable, it became associated with freedom that like the American dream

and this, of course, Fred everywhere else too, was owning your own car because you could drive anywhere. You weren't relying on public transportation. You weren't relying on these other systems. You were basically just relying on yourself at that point. Now, there's always nuances to that. reliant on being able to get gasoline, for example, which in the 70s people found out is not always a given. But it was a symbol of freedom. And over time, people, for example, there's some people that love to work on their cars. If something breaks, they can often fix it. They know how it works. They can change the oil. They can do all sorts of stuff with it. And then there are people that have absolutely no idea how their car works, can't change the oil, can't change a flat tire,

can't do anything with it. And of course, the people that can do everything with the car are going to look at those people and say, you've given up your freedom. You can't even maintain your own vehicle. You're reliant on those around you to do it for you. But the point is, it's optionality. People can choose their own adventure for how they maintain their car. They could be fully hand-on, basically building it from the ground up from some used clunker,

or they could just buy something, never worry about it, have a service person do everything, and you just kind of hope that the system's functioning pretty well. And Bitcoin's kind of the same way. I think, you know, part of it is just any adoption pattern is going to go through a long process. And it often involves part of the generations getting it, but also the dark thing is just part of people dying off and then people being born in a world where Bitcoin is already around. So things like managing your own keys just is something like writing a check, which now people forget how to write check. because they're born without having to write a check, but instead they're born where Bitcoin exist, right? So these things just, they sometimes take time. And it's also a world where, just like

everybody doesn't change their own oil in their car. Not everybody wants the responsibility of owning their own coins and things like that. So there will still be services for people at whatever need that they have or desire they have. And I think it's always good to invite people to be more hands-on. I mean, money is one of the things that really matters. You know, there are some hobbies that you kind of do for fun, and there are other ones that can really save you one day. And so I think it's not, you know, it's not necessarily the same as a car, but I think it's a really close analogy that there's a spectrum for how hands-on people can be.

And just because someone gets their car serviced doesn't mean that it takes away from someone who is, you know, doing their own oil. And I, it's one thing I'd like a trend I see online is, people saying they want less digital cars. Because, for example, if you have a fully electronic car, you can barely do anything with it anyway. It's entirely like done for you. I drive a 16-year-old Hyundai.

And it's finally failing me. And so I'm actually getting a fairly inexpensive Toyota that is like the least electronic I could find. Is that one of those crazy? It has like all electronics stripped out other than absolutely necessary? close you know it's got the classic like backup camera and and you know a little GPS screen and stuff but the for the most part is this is this old school uh mechanical car that's great i just want to say that is a awesome analogy i've never heard that said before um i love the connection to freedom

and then like you can kind of choose your own adventure right self-sovereignty if you can know how to repair the thing yourself or you can have the trusted third party as your repair guy that is what Bitcoin is really like, right? You can leave it on exchange or you can get super self-sovereign with it. It's also cool that cars increased the urban density of the city to an extreme amount. And so it drove a lot of, there were a lot of second order effects, you know, that increased innovation and serendipity in the city and all these things. So like there's, I would also like to include that as like Bitcoin has a lot of really positive second order effects and positive externalities. Maybe not the same as the car, but, you know, in terms of lowering, let's say,

increasing productivity by by lowering the profitability of theft, reducing, acting like a global bounty program for decreasing energy costs, all of these things could be like positive externalities of Bitcoin. And the same way the cars have positive externalities. I say all that, by the way, as a guy that drives a 22F350 that looks like Bruce Wayne fucking built it, and doesn't know how to work on it at all. I have no idea. I can't even change the oil in it. So I guess I'm a car shit coiner. One day I will be too. Like I have I have a number where I'm going to, you know, one day for some reason when I was a kid, it was always just a Porsche. I'm not a I'm not a car person whatsoever, but that'll be it. But the thing is, I'm probably going to get an automatic.

Yeah. And everybody's going to hate me for it. But you know, there it is, car shit corner. Yeah. I wanted to tag on to one other thing that Lynn said there in and around families and people, you know, kids now being born into a world where Bitcoin has just always existed. And, you know, this is the case for my kids. And I had a very, I will not stop bragging about this because my daughter, she's turning eight and she's like, she gets her allowance, half of it in Bitcoin and she saves it and everything. She has her in a Bitcoin wallet. She knows how to send and receive transactions. And we made the sat market here in Calgary and we do it twice a year. And she loves it. And she

shows up to this market. And she has her wallet ready. And she goes up to all the vendors. And like some of these vendors, they're brand new to Bitcoin too. And they're, you know, they're like 30, 40, 50, you know, and maybe they're making things. They're making hats and toys and stuff like that, or maybe she's getting some food, you know, home baking, baking stuff. And she rolls up to these tables with people that are just trying to figure out how to even open the app. And she's just like, boop, boop, scan, sends. And they're like, who is this girl, this seven at the time, seven-year-old girl who's like running circles

around me with her Bitcoin wallet? And I don't even know. But, I mean, this is the future that is ahead of us where it's just, it's just all been there and it's not weird. And she understands that when she gets her allowance, there's a reason that the half that most of the time she saves is in Bitcoin because she knows that if she saves the Canadian moose shekels that she gets for her shopping, she's going to be able to buy less and less stuff with it over time. And so she's in the early stages of kind of getting it. And, you know, it's always been a positive thing for her. And again, shout out to people like Lena who

create the little hoddlers because she's had those around for and she just associates it as like a nice thing and and yeah i'm very excited for that to become just the norm it's been said that science advances from funeral to funeral yeah and it is a little bit bleak but it is also the natural process and so we should take that very seriously in educating the children right that this is a this is a very long game who knows how long it will be maybe forever or at least as long as we're around, the Bitcoin game could persist. So education is essential. And we're actually very fortunate to be alive at this inflection point in history. There's only one time the Bitcoin was emerging. And it doesn't look like there'll be a second one, right? Whether Bitcoin succeeds or

not, I don't think you get a second shot at it either way. Yeah. It's, you know, it's an exciting, but an exciting time, but a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of every Bitcoin or today to make sure that this thing works. So with that, we're going to do our final rotation. We're going to take a quick break,

but Robert, when we come back, I'm coming to you to find out why you are bullish. Everybody that's watching, thank you guys so much for being here. Of course, smash that like button. If you're enjoying the conversation, it helps a ton.

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All right, we're back in. I do want to take a second to shout out to everybody. If you get the chance, come to the SAP market. Again, I think it's so important that we not only be able to save in Bitcoin, but actually use it. And I think nothing's more resilient than building local relationships with people that create and provide quality goods and being able to exchange those quality goods for the best money that mankind has ever seen. So come visit the SAP market.

It is Bitcoin satmarket.com. We've got one coming up near the end of June, and that tags on, it's a night market that leads into the Bitcoin Rodeo that's happening here in Calgary, which is Bitcoinrodio.com. I'm pretty excited about it. It should be a good time. But either way, come to a market. It should be fun. Robert, I'm going to toss it to you.

Final one of the evening, and same question everybody gets. Why are you bullish? I already exhausted my answers to this early. We talked about adversarial thinkers. Bitcoiners often say adversarial thinking is very key to understanding the value proposition of Bitcoin. That's how for me it was like when you actually get into the game theory of it, that's when I started to flirt with the word like inevitable. It felt like it was a very fundamental driver of individual human psychology.

And I didn't see how that couldn't manifest at the socioeconomic scales. institutions and whatnot. So it's interesting, right? Because that's it's kind of a it's an aggressive word frankly adversarial thinking. So you're basically thinking about the economics of forest, the possibilities of force, you know, how could someone exploit you or coerce you, you know, how to protect yourself from such coercion or exploitation. And I think it's exciting that it's a bit ironic and exciting for me this adversarial thinking. obviously gravitate towards Bitcoin. But then perhaps in the long run, Bitcoin's actually going to make us less actually adversarial. Like maybe we'll all become more adversarial thinking.

And in doing so, we'll be better guarded against physical adversity. And so it's a very, there's this term opponent processing. They use it in psychology, like your sympathetic nervous system and your parasympathetic nervous system, or an opponent processing. There are two opposite systems pulling you two different directions and the center point of that, that dynamic center point is your arousal state basically, physical arousal, like wakefulness, not necessarily sexual. And so I hope that Bitcoin is something like this radically newly discovered incentive vortex that actually starts to tilt human psychology in a different evolutionary direction. That sounds crazy and it's a mouthful, but like we do

co-evolve with our tools to some extent. And I think money is a very powerful incentive system. So the possibility of that enabling us to steer ourselves to be more, let's say, peaceful opponent market actors, right? We're actually competing with one another ruthlessly, but peacefully. Right. We can all just be ruthless, peaceful capitalists who have a really bad rap. But in reality, all they're doing is solving customer problems, better, faster, cheaper. And so that seems like the most productive channel for our inherently animalistic energies. And I'm excited and bullish that Bitcoin might actually be one of those giant leaps forward along that path.

So I find this line of thinking interesting. It makes me think of a conversation I had with somebody a while back. We're getting a little bit cosmic with things, but we're talking about the idea of the Fermi paradox where it's like, well, why if there's been X number of, you know, billions of years since the creation of the universe. Why haven't we seen evidence of life elsewhere? Like wouldn't, you would think we would have come across something already. And so it's either we are the first to, you know, to go this far and we will be the first to visit others,

or that there's some sort of great filter that prevents, you know, living beings from going beyond a certain point. And one of the things that came up was, is the creation of Bitcoin us passing that great filter? Is that the thing where in order to actually, you know, productively work together, we need a system that can't be subverted by taking away the fruits of people's labor. So I kind of like that idea there. Yeah, it ties into Lynn's thing earlier about cars, right? and the thing I tried to add to it was the cascading effects of cars. Well, cars gave us the modern city and urban density and all the of that.

Maybe Bitcoin gives us something like starships, right? To your point, like you do get this radical explosion and innovation and wealth creation. And I mean, where would we go from there? I assume it would be out. Yeah. I'm curious if anybody wants to tag in and get a little cosmic with us here, wherever you want to take it. But Dale, Lynn, whoever wants to chime in.

I suppose, you know, can Bitcoin shape our consciousness and isn't going to change the way humanity interacts with each other in the future? To one extent, I think that is feasible. However, increasingly what I'm finding, like until we cross that point where Bitcoin is recognized as money, the sound as money, I want to store my energy in this thing, I think a lot of people will still just regard it as kind of a quote-unquote investment. And until you've looked at it, it's something beyond just an investment as actually like a representation of your time, your savings, your scarce energy, I think we're not going to

see necessarily a psychological shift, but to the point of sort of cascading consequences, I think in an increasingly bitcoinized world, one of the benefits that I would hope to be able to see is that war becomes way too costly. Governments are going to have to convince their citizens that, hey, we need to generate a bunch of cash in order to go and fight this war over there. And the citizens are going to have to get on board. And increasing in this digital age, we have so much access to information that it's more and more difficult

for governments to get their propaganda down our throat. If you think about the amount of channels or, you know, the information that was available to folks, let's say, in the 40s or, you know, in the sort of earliest 20th century, Today, we're just so much better equipped to see through the bullshit. And so if we get to that point where Bitcoin does become a unit of account or a medium exchange in some countries, I think you can find more and more that people are just not going to support it. So I look forward to like a peaceful world because I know, for example, whether you support a war or not,

I think often it's at the expense of the currency holders in the country who's funding it. And that's something that I think is quite feasible in my lifetime. I'm optimistic, let's say. Lynn, I'll toss it to you if there's anything that you've heard here that you want to tag into. Yeah, I think that technological breakthroughs have very real impacts on power dynamics. And so, for example, and this is like a core part of broken money, is that the invention and deployment of the telegraph made it so that information can now go at the speed of light while settlements were still speed of gold and verification and auditing. And so that if you can do information at the speed of light, you can do transactions at the speed of light because transactions are just agreements to do something, IOUs, basically. And so they opened up this gigantic mismatch between transaction speeds and settlement speeds.

And the way to solve that was basically someone operates a ledger and reconciles them. And ledgers are prone to centralization and capture, so they coalesce into central banks. And we basically had a century and a half where humanity didn't know how to do fast. settlement, and yet we had fast transactions, and that gave like a power dynamic shift to every country in the world. And Bitcoin is the invention of fast settlements. But then, much like the Telegraph was invented in 1830s, it wasn't deployed across the Atlantic Ocean until the 1860s, it wasn't deployed across the Pacific Ocean until the early 1900s. And then, of course, you build on top, there's radio, there's, you know, telephone, there's internet, you know,

more bandwidth involved than just the telegraph. And so Bitcoin is the invention of fast settlements launched in 2009, much like the Telegraph, it takes time to not just, it doesn't just exist and go to a hundred trillion dollar market cap and everybody uses it in year one. It takes decades to pierce into these massive network effects, massive systems over time. It gets tested in every possible way. And so to the extent that it's successful, it's going to be a multi-decade process. And I think multiple tangible things can come from that.

It takes away some of that centralization of power that that speed of ledgers gave to central banks and governments. I think it pulls power back toward the periphery to some extent. It lets people demonetize things that they've been using for money and savings. Like, you know, you don't have to like monetize your real estate anymore. People, you know, when money's weak, they make everything else scarce into money. So by having scarce money, you can pull monetary your premium out of all that other stuff or most of that. other stuff, which makes it more affordable for the people that actually need it. It's good to have, you know, excess savings in scarcity that's not tied to, like, necessary utility, like shelter.

And all of that is good. There are, you know, I try not to do like utopian outlooks. There still are challenges. I mean, if we want to get caused with with like great filter stuff, I can imagine a world where for a million dollars someone could engineer like a horrible virus. So you decentralized the power to do a crazy offense, you know? So I think there's still going to be fun filters to try to get through. And of course, the pushback there, the social issue there will be, well, if everyone has a capacity to kill a million people, then the answer is like authoritarianism. That everybody has to be monitor to make sure they're not doing it. Right.

So that's going to be a fun dynamic to navigate and be like, because they're going to have this argument. Like someone's going to do it once. and then they're like, well, we have to monitor every single thing possible, right? And so this would be push back. There's a book called Upgrade where some genetically modified attempt accidentally calls a global famine. So now there's like authorities going out to make sure nobody's got like a gene modification thing in their garage because it's like so catastrophic that the offense you can do.

And I don't know how Bitcoin fixes that. I think it's going to be fun to get to that point. I mean, you know, we hope we get there and get past it. But Bitcoin has very tangible benefits for changing power structures, improving abundance, taking monetary premiums away from things that ideally shouldn't be scarce. And all, you know, almost all of that is positive. I'm conscious of time here. I want to round out, but I want to throw one last thing towards each of you.

And I'll give you a second to think it over. But in the next, we'll call it, you know, we'll say five years. If you could see one incredibly positive thing happen on the Bitcoin front, what do you think that one thing would be if you could pick anything to happen? for myself, it would probably lay somewhere in the realm of it being so stupidly easy for your average person to onboard and use Bitcoin in a fully self-sovereign way that the leap from custody to self-custody is so minimal that everybody thinks why would I even bother with a custodian when I can just hold it myself? Or that's the kind of the default thinking. There's still be custodians. But I wanted to be so stupidly easy that anybody can just do it. And they just think, well, why wouldn't I? That would be for me.

So, Lynn, what would you like to see in the next five years? I would echo what you said. I think that's top tier answer. Probably the one that I would consider equal to it is default privacy or basically privacy things becoming so easy that people just default to them rather than kind of like just a small percentage of people seeking them out

especially because privacy technologies are better than more people use them they have that type of network effect and so whether it's Chalmy and eCash whether it's other solutions just multiple ways to kind of make it more private I think is good

because when privacy is rare it's easier to target, and when privacy is ubiquitous, it's harder to target. And I think that part of that is changing people's minds. So an analogy I often make is that, you know, before banking, when we were, you know, even a couple hundred years ago, no matter how much of a tyrant a king was, he couldn't think to surveil everyone's transactions. The technological reality wasn't there. And now we've, as, again, the speed mismatch issue, now we all bank accounts. We're all on this like shared ledger that's highly surveillable, people think it's weird if you want privacy, that that's the default state is surveillance, and it's weird if you want privacy. And I would like technologies to get

so good at just making privacy ubiquitous, almost like by accident. Like people don't even know they're private just because they're just using the best technology that happens to be private, where it just becomes normal again. Privacy is normal. Perfect. Dale, how about yourself? What would you like to see? Both of both those answers were absolutely. stellar and I'll just build on that. What I'd like to see more and more of is well-developed, efficient and complex peer-to-peer markets around the world that are basically unstoppable. With built-in privacy, of course, using the tools as like Lynn's described as a default. I think increasingly in places like Africa, I would love to see things like that actually become more and more the

default so that it becomes just such a no-brainer so that they have the ability to easily take the local currency switch it into Bitcoin and then perhaps hold a portion of that savings in something like a USDT or seamlessly using technology. That's what I'd like to see more and more of. I love it. Robert, how about yourself? Yeah, those are fantastic answers. Something that I've thought about before is the idea of there being a breakout success as like a consumer mobile app. I'm not, it could really be anything, but the idea is basically that there was some breakout success of a consumer mobile app that's using Bitcoin underneath the hood, so to speak, so creating demand for block space, but without people even knowing it's a Bitcoin application,

and it just goes like social viral phenomenon. And there's this massive engine of Bitcoin acquisition just sort of accidentally created. Hopefully that would be on Noster or something like it. I actually get like the streaming stats and you get two birds, one stone, you're onboarding people of Nostri, onboarding people to Bitcoin indirectly or at least creating a lot of demand for Bitcoin. And again, I think it would, yeah, just to emphasize the importance of like, it needs to kind of be indirect in a way. It's kind of like the sly roundabout way of going the other way. Because if you call it a Bitcoin app, like people tend to have their guard up and whatever. But if it was just something like

a Facebook, mobile app, Instagram, whatever, that made use of Bitcoin in a really big way, I think that would be very exciting, you know, just to see there'd be another major buyer, right? And you could just, like we already have the energy producers around the world. It's kind of like the backbone of Bitcoin and the miners and all this. But you would like create this other massive vortex of Bitcoin acquisition. I love that. I agree that something with Noster going, you know, something blowing up and everybody needs to be on that app just because of the social features of it. or just for whatever reason, that would be like a low-key, just de facto orange-pilling moment

because everybody over there is already zapping each other's sats back and forth all day. It would be monumental. So great answers for everybody. Everyone, I want to thank you guys so much for being here. Everybody that's been watching, of course, if you've enjoyed the conversation, make sure you smash that like button. It really does help a ton. I also wanted to say if anybody is in the midst of their Bitcoin journey, their Bitcoin

technical journey, and you're trying to master the art of self-custody, on-chain privacy, all of those things, hardware, multi-sig, all of that. Both myself and Dale are part of Bitcoin Mentor. And so you can always reach out to us over at Bitcoin Mentor.io and book one-on-one educational sessions. either singles or take, we can take you on a whole journey to get your whole setup going. So reach out to us there, Bitcoin Mentor.io. But with that, thank you all so much for being here. I really appreciate it and have a wonderful rest of your evening. Thanks, Lynn, thanks Dale.

Thanks, Robert. Thank you. Thank you very much. This was your daily session. See you guys.