BTC Sessions - "Nobody's Protected by the Law" Bitcoiners Prepare TO BE TARGETED | Katie Ananina

Starting point is 00:00:00 I mean, if I truly speak from my heart, I'd say nobody's protected by the law. You can never trust the government, no matter who sits in the White House. If a sovereign state want to get you, they probably will somehow. Yeah, you need a bumy passport. Picture this, you're sipping coffee and scrolling Bitcoin Twitter. Your phone buzzes. A breaking news alert. The government just dropped a bombshell, an unrealized capital gains tax on your stack. That's right.

Starting point is 00:00:27 You didn't even cash out for Fiat and they're still going to make your money. pay. Then it escalates. Whispers of Bitcoin 6102, Confiscation 2.0, you're being investigated for dangerous posts or worse to reinstating the draft. This isn't a movie. U.S., Australia, Canada, UK, governments have been circling, and Bitcoiners need an escape hatch. That's why today we're joined by Katie from CitizenX, a former Russian who escaped war and hyperinflation and now helps Bitcoiners lock down second passports and residencies. In this episode, she's unpacking how to turn your Bitcoin or heritage into citizenship, why Portugal's quietly booming for digital nomads, and how to shield your freedom when the crackdown hits. Buckle up, this is your playbook to live a

Starting point is 00:01:08 life where your wealth is untouchable, your freedom is unbreakable, and your sovereignty is unstoppable. Bringing you the skills and insights to escape the Fiat matrix, this is Mentor Sessions. Well, Katie, thank you so much for joining us. Eastside, I don't know, I don't know what that is. I only, I'm not sure if I did East Side there, if that's something different. Thank you so much. It's great to have you. Right off the bat, just kick us off. You are basically Plan B's first client.

Starting point is 00:01:44 What inspired you to relocate? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. Well, I was 21-year-old. I felt like I am not challenged enough at the time. I felt like the economy, so I was studying in a university, like the best university of Russia, studying economics and finance. And I was like, I don't think what we're studying currently can explain what's happening

Starting point is 00:02:09 in Russia with hyperinflation and all those things. And I started basically questioning the studies. And I remember I just got angry with my teacher for answering me something like, well, you know, we are studying by Western books, but they're not applicable in post-Soviet culture. And I was like, you're kidding? You're literally saying that the knowledge you're giving. me right now is not applicable. So I just got angry, basically, started Googling of like athletic scholarships around the world and realized that I can move to the U.S. and study in the

Starting point is 00:02:45 U.S. university for free as a professional athlete. And that just spiked my curiosity. I ended up not going back to college as a professional athlete. But I did end up immigrating to the U.S., getting legalized here again through my athletic career. And that's how I ended up here. Well, Katie, because I'm an idiot, can you tell me about your athletic career for just a moment? Oh, yeah, sure. So at the age of nine, I started sailing. And at 11, I got into the junior national team at the age of 15. I became a captain of adult Russian national team. Oh, adult. All my girls who are 15 years old. So I'll always say, of course, I can run a business.

Starting point is 00:03:31 Of course, I can be an entrepreneur. I used to manage five teenage girls, which was way harder. But yeah, I was a professional sailor. And when I moved to the U.S., I was in top 20 world ranking. So then America gave me a green card and welcomed me here so I can compete for America. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. Have you been doing a good job for America?

Starting point is 00:03:55 Well, I won a couple competitions. of my first year here in the U.S. And then I honestly couldn't figure out how to get legalized in the country, make money, and compete simultaneously. So I had to peek and choose. And then I haven't been sailing much ever since, honestly. I'll definitely get back into that once I'm over my childbearing each. Yeah, you got to earn your keep, Katie.

Starting point is 00:04:20 Don't make us kick you out. Yeah. Come on. Well, you know, it brings up an interesting question for me. at least. This, obviously, you've had some background in it, and still, it was a lot of hoops to jump through for you. And I'm thinking, just since we are a Bitcoin show, there are probably a lot of Bitcoiners who have come into some wealth recently, who may not necessarily have the background that you've talked about in some of your videos of global history, politics, economics, who might be thinking,

Starting point is 00:04:51 boy, it might not be a bad idea to go from one country to another, have some multiple flags, as we say. Is there a good place they can start learning about this sort of thing? I mean, obviously, there's the Plan B website and Citizen X just acquired Plan B, and I'm sure you'd love to talk about that. But any other recommendations on books, places they should go would be great. I mean, sovereign individual is my first recommendation just because it gives you this background of the concept itself, the concept of flag theory and why it is important for the individual and how, as an individual, you will benefit at the end. Once more of us starting to play the game of jurisdictional arbitrage, there's also another good book called Strategic Relocation. It's mostly

Starting point is 00:05:38 on the U.S., which state you would move at what particular disaster, let's say. But honestly, if you just want to get your hand on the pulse of what's happening right now in the industry and what passports you can get, Citizen X webinars is probably your best best. That's awesome. I actually want to expand on that a little bit too. Okay, so you were the first client. You're coming over from Russia. You get all this information based on immigration. He realized, hey, I've kind of got a bit of a skill set and maybe an opportunity here for a new business. You start a plan B, which ran for, was it like, I was it like seven years or how long to plan B run for? Yep. Over six years. And yeah, basically going up for seven. And then just a couple of months ago, we got acquired by season X. Perfect. Can you tell me a little bit about that, what happened there, why the transition, why are we? we teaming up? Because Citizen X was previously your competition, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, like the closest competition. Yes. So tell me about this acquisition. What's going on there?

Starting point is 00:06:35 Kind of what you guys are, you know, planning for the future and combining forces on. And then I have a follow-up question on that as well, too. Yeah. Well, a little bit background of how I started Plumby passport. I moved to the U.S. I got scammed by an immigration attorney here in the U.S. She basically, she got feed. I've heard that's really common. Very common, super common. She basically got kind of half-assed my application and stop responding to my emails and phone calls. So I had to self-represent, and that kind of gave me an idea

Starting point is 00:07:06 that I'm good at this whole immigration thing. And then on Twitter, I was already screaming at the corners that everybody needs a second passport. So I just knew it because I lived through that growing up in Russia, constantly being denied in visas, not being able to travel, not being able to relocate.

Starting point is 00:07:25 So I was just talking about it, a lot and the business kind of started itself because I started growing the audience because the message resonated with Bitcoiners and I grew expertise because I was so passionate about it. So I started by me passport and over the years we kind of established like the citizenship consulting firm for Bitcoiners because we understand Bitcoiners goals and needs and pain points way better than any trade five dude in the suit talking about like offshore jurisdictions. So plan B started growing, but because we are in this orange world where like basically once you establish yourself as dead business for Bitcoiners, a lot of opportunities show up for you because Bitcoin establishes itself in a world. So as Bitcoin grows as the monetary network, the concept, et cetera, your company grows.

Starting point is 00:08:20 So over the last few years, I had to say no to a lot of great opportunities that I knew would benefit Bitcoiners overall just because I was, you know, a mother of two, a solo founder. I was still doing all the paperwork process that the actual documents stuff as well as I was doing marketing. So I guess I just didn't transform my business on time in order to be. able to say yes to all those opportunities because I was so operationally involved in every little thing. So then I started in some partnership with Citizen X. We were involved in the same program, Citizenship Buy Investment Program. And just in the conversation, I realized how aligned we are. And we met in Nashville too. We were on a panel discussion together. And it was like a breath of fresh air because, again, all the other people in the industry are dudes and suits talking about

Starting point is 00:09:20 lots of things that I don't say that. Yeah, just not a Bitcoiner mindset. So I started talking to Alex, the CEO of Citizen-Ax, and I just mentioned that, hey, you guys should just pipeline B passport and we'll do it together. And then it just unfolded in very short time, and it fits like a glove. It's been super easy transition just again because we are so on the same. page regarding our principles and values and how we see the industry. And now I have all this resources, the talent that they have on the team to actually go ahead and start spreading this

Starting point is 00:10:03 whole flag theory and sovereign individual thesis to jurisdictions that are not currently having the citizenship by investment program, but are realizing that they need to stack Bitcoin somehow How to. So while companies like Microstrategie issue shares to buy Bitcoin, the smaller nation states, just like in silver individual book, will issue citizenship in order to stack Bitcoin. So I really want to accelerate this process and truly launch a few more programs that I know Bitcoiners would appreciate and just make this free market competition between nation states to happen, basically. I never thought of it from that framework too, that essentially you could stack citizens in order to acquire Bitcoin for your country.

Starting point is 00:10:50 I thought about it necessarily in terms of like, okay, we want to attract the capital. Bitcoiners are obviously going to be where the capital is going to accrue. They're going to be the most productive. They're the ones you want to have being there. But I never thought you could actually be like, yes, you can join for one Bitcoin. They might even just like a straight direct transfer as well, too. Is there any place on your radar that you suspect that option may be coming or you may be, is there anywhere on the horizon that you think that a smaller nation's, States that might be eyeing up this may be the strategy? Yeah, well, I'm super bullish on Latin America and on Balkans. I'm going to say to the Balkans. So the Balkans, they're outside of EU, some of them. But they do have this very strong passport and they're sovereign nations without the pressure

Starting point is 00:11:36 of the EU. So I think they are in this unique position to be able to launch programs like that. Latin America that is clearly on the rise with El Salvador leading the way. El Salvador is currently selling their citizenship for just under 10 BTC. And it's the fastest program in the world. It's the only program that is fully on the Bitcoin standard. It means that you can't pay for citizenship in fiat. So they're definitely leading the way and we see interest from other Latin American countries as well.

Starting point is 00:12:06 I just got to point out that like that this is so amazing to me that there was a point in time where you've could have gone to the Bitcoin free faucet, and you would just hit that up for two days. There's two days at the free faucet, and you could have got a citizenship at El Salvador. That technically would have been a totally valid option there. Okay, before I pivot to a different topic, I do actually want to touch on. You mentioned the idea of strong passports as well, too. I've got no idea what makes a strong passport. What is it that you're kind of looking for?

Starting point is 00:12:33 What's the difference? What's a weak passport? What's a strong one? You must have been, you must have been bored with a strong passport because otherwise you would know what weak passport is. Yes, I may be showing my Canadian hands here. If somebody who was born in Russia and couldn't travel basically nowhere, I truly knew what is weak passport.

Starting point is 00:12:52 Basically, well, there are definitely few things to consider. The first one is visa-free access. So on the Canadian passport, you are very well set in terms of travel. You barely need visas anywhere. I mean, maybe to Russia, actually. But overall, you are in a pretty solid position. But then you also have to understand that in the current geopolitics, Canadians may not be in the best position, especially Canadian bitcoiners.

Starting point is 00:13:19 They do not consider themselves supporters of the current administration, as well as taxation, of course, coming up. So now you recognize, okay, I have this very strong passport, but the taxes are through the roof, which makes my citizenship less valuable because I have to pay 40% of my earnings to the government. So now you start shopping for different jurisdictions for tax purposes, which means you would have to actually cut ties with Canada and relocate out. But where would you go now?

Starting point is 00:13:50 So this is how you start stacking flags, right? So you still have a strong citizenship in Canada. You truly expatriate and you establish, let's say, residency in El Salvador that currently has zero tax on Bitcoin, obviously, as well as good tax intensive, but incentives. for tech companies, basically zero corporate income tax, which is nice too. So now you're starting to shop, okay, I'm launching a tech company, maybe in Bitcoin space. I'm going to do it from El Salvador. But what if I don't want to leave there and I actually like seasonality and I want to snowboard? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:14:30 Okay, let's consider other jurisdictions. Maybe I'll move to Switzerland and things like that. So when we talk about weak and strong passport, there are world approved measurements such as visa-free access. But then as a big pointer and as somebody who values economic freedom, you might want to consider other things such as taxation, also extradition rights, also data sharing rights like Canada. and you are in bed together in terms of sharing all the data or the five-five countries, right? The UK, Australia, the US, Canada,

Starting point is 00:15:14 will be the other one. New Zealand probably. Yeah, so all this things, just keep in mind. That's very interesting. I just keep adding to my list of things that I need to learn because this has definitely been like a blind spot for me. I've just been like a happy little Canuck for years. But, of course, in the last, we'll say at least five or so,

Starting point is 00:15:32 it's definitely escalator. It's like, I'm shopping around, especially like in a post-COVID world. Like when that hit, it was like, holy crap, do I feel trapped? And I have nowhere I can go. And man, was it unbelievably lonely? Because you can imagine like Canadian Bitcoin or culture is not quite really aligned. And everyone looks at you like you're crazy just because you want to, you know, maybe press the break a little bit.

Starting point is 00:15:52 You touched on something. And I think I've heard you referenced in another podcast before as well too, but this idea of you can look at different like sort of kind of safety extradition taxes. But you touched on privacy. And that had never been an element for choosing. where to go, which flag to run I'd ever considered. Where are the private places? If privacy is one of our concerns, what are some of the areas that we should be looking at? And I know you just mentioned a few things too with like the Five Eyes.

Starting point is 00:16:17 Is there anything about people's current exposure? They may have no idea that they realize that this information is all out there being shared between countries. Yeah, well, unfortunately in 2025, there's very little privacy left. either three-letter agency is sorting through all your stuff. You have to truly opt out of the system and go do lots of research and figure out how to run your own server, run your own note, all those things to ensure your privacy. But the jurisdictions that are known for privacy probably would be Switzerland, of course. And then you also just want to go to the other side of political spectrum.

Starting point is 00:16:58 let's say, I mean, it's not hard to go to the other side of political spectrum from Canada these days because they're just so far, so far left that almost anything is on the right. So in this regard, you're just choosing somebody who's clearly not in bed with Canada. So let's think, Turkey, definitely not in bed with Canada. El Salvador currently not in bed with Canada. EU probably is, right? So you just start strategizing on depending on your goals and needs. That's how you choose the jurisdiction.

Starting point is 00:17:34 I always say when you think about your Bitcoin security, you consider all the things. Do I travel a lot? Do I need to take care of inheritance? Do I need a hot wallet to pay daily? Do I need everything on a cold storage? And just based on your lifestyle, your goals and needs, you come up with the best practices for you personally. So same goes for Flag Theory.

Starting point is 00:17:53 It's a custom tailored security model that needs to do. take into consideration. Your current citizenship, your family's desired lifestyle, the size of the pocket that you're willing to span on the citizenship option or residency option. And just like that, you understand your attack factors, your threats, then you understand what's available on the market, what are my options, how much they cost, can I include my parents, my children? And then once you collect all this information, you just come up with the best custom tailor strategy for you personally. It's funny. One thing that you mentioned there that I never even considered that you could benefit from the adversarial relationship between two existing countries, right?

Starting point is 00:18:34 Like I'll take Canada and Turkey and you guys can just fight amongst yourselves and I'll be the one hiding in the background. I quite like that. Just to pivot for a second. So we had plan B. We've now gone and merged with Citizen X. I imagine this introduces you to even more clients and a wider audience necessarily that you're getting more information. I would think that you have the most interesting kind of like boots on the ground view of what's currently going on in the world in terms of who's knocking on your door and where they're looking at going and what they're considering. Very much so, like we talked about the sovereign individual, but I was thinking about the fourth turning.

Starting point is 00:19:09 Like what an early warning indicator for the fourth turning kind of playing out. So I'm curious on two fronts. One, and maybe it's just taxes at this point in time, maybe that is the main concern. What are the fears and concerns of your Bitcoin clients coming to you? what is on their radar that's making them think about this in sort of a security model. And then the second one is, what are the non-Bitcoiners seeing? Because intuitively, it makes sense to me why Bitcoiners are like, oh, yeah, I need different jurisdictions, I got to be prepared to move.

Starting point is 00:19:38 I know where these things are going. But I'm surprised to, I'm surprised to, I'm curious what the no-coiners are thinking about. Definitely. So the two jurisdictions that are currently clearly going through something, and I mean, I could see through the news, but I didn't need the news because I look at my calendar and I see the home jurisdiction and I realize, yeah, something is happening. So for the last two weeks, I've been mostly talking to Canadians. Prior to that, the UK was leading the way quite a bit too. And still, the majority of my clients are from the United States, but they're a little different

Starting point is 00:20:14 clientele. So Canada and UK is relocating. They're out. They're not looking for Plumby passport. they're looking for full relocation, expatriation, they're not interested. Canadians are currently pretty unsure what to expect. They definitely want a Plenty B passport and potentially consider on relocation. The United States citizens, they are truly just looking for Plum B passport. They're hoping they will never have to use it. They're hoping they will never have to relocate. They're enjoying their current lifestyle.

Starting point is 00:20:49 yet they know that you can never trust the government, no matter who sits in the White House. Yeah, you need a public passport. They may never share it in these conversations as well too. So for me, looking at Canada, okay, getting definitely more, it feels like it's increasing, creeping authoritarianism, censorship, definitely appears to be maybe hostile towards Bitcoiners in the future. There's growing tension between the East and the West as well, too.

Starting point is 00:21:16 In the UK, again, it's perhaps a biased view, but I say that censorship stuff, and people are arrested for posts and things all the time. And that just seems absolutely ridiculous to me. Would it be accurate to say that the concern is coming from government overreach or is there any other specifics or things that are like kind of freaking them out? Absolutely, government overreach. Also civil unrest, specifically for Canada, just like you mentioned.

Starting point is 00:21:44 That would be another concern. security and lack of infrastructure in the UK. I was just shared by a friend of mine in the industry that in London there's like no cell coverage. It's ridiculous. Like people just walking around

Starting point is 00:21:58 trying to find network because they have no internet on the ground and just infrastructure is not getting any better. The capital flight is in place. Like the rich are leaving the UK. There's

Starting point is 00:22:14 a lot of political asylum applicants that are moving into the UK. So we just have this, yeah, capital flight. Like the rich are living, the very poor and sometimes unskilled are moving in. So you know what to expect. We actually just had a conversation with the gentleman who took political asylum in the UK from Hong Kong. I didn't even realize that that would be an option for him, but it was pretty fascinating. Bitcoin gives you back your time, so why not spend it having a blast orange pillinger?

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Starting point is 00:24:04 time to go through all the tutorials, the books, and the guides, you can book a free strategy session with me, Nathan, or any of her other great mentors at Bitcoin Mentor.com. Discover how Ben and entire team at Bitcoin Mentor can help you accelerate your Bitcoin journey. Simply scan the QR code or click the link in the description down below. Gary, I'm curious if you had anything on your mind or what you're thinking. Well, you know, I was a lot of what we touched on so far is centered around taxes and keeping your wealth and it's completely understandable, especially on a Bitcoin show where a lot of people like we said at the beginning have come into wealth recently. And in learning that flag theory and admittedly, I didn't know much about it before we got on this call.

Starting point is 00:24:45 I was reading an article from back in 2020 where a gentleman wrote about having five different flags, planning your flag in five different locations, so to speak, citizenship or I guess permanent residence at the very least. And almost all of them centered around taxes, you know, trying to be able to keep your wealth, which is great. And that's one aspect of everything. And certainly you mentioned El Salvador is currently a place where relatively low taxes, very pro-Bitcoin. That all sounds fantastic. but I keep coming back to something that my mother, for some reason, kept telling me as a kid, and I don't know why she could pound it into my head, but she would always say,

Starting point is 00:25:21 if there's one thing you don't ever do, don't ever give up your American citizenship, ever, ever, and this was her big thing. She kept saying it over and over again. And, you know, it has me wondering, sure, there may be some countries in the world right now who have better tax advantages. You can keep your wealth better. But if I'm thinking about, and maybe it might work out well for me, but if I'm thinking about my next generation and the generation after. If I ever got to the point where I'm saying, you know, I just need to completely expatriate, give it my American citizenship, what kind of risk am I taking? Because I'm looking at a country here and we have our problems. But for roughly 200 years,

Starting point is 00:25:56 aside from that whole slavery thing, people kind of had freedom. And, you know, you can, you can rely on the fact that you lived in kind of a civil libertarian society to some degree where you couldn't just be thrown in the gulag without due process. you know, El Salvador looks nice money-wise, but they're kind of throwing a bunch of folks in the gulag. Is this something that I should be considering, like, long-term? Yeah, it might be nice now, but it just seems like a lot to put in my mind. Feel free. Have it at it. Yeah, no, definitely. So for a few things, usually people don't have to renounce their first citizenship. Like, for Americans, there is a little incentive because America has citizenship-based taxation, unlike others.

Starting point is 00:26:40 So those folks actually do consider renunciation. The good thing that I always recommend is even as an adult, if you're renouncing, your kids shouldn't renounce their citizenship, basically because up until 18, they have zero disadvantage of being American. You won't have to pay taxes because your kids are American. They won't have to pay taxes because they're under 18. And then give them that choice to make because maybe they will want to go back and live in the United States. So your nationality will keep running in your family.

Starting point is 00:27:12 That's still doable. Regarding incentives. So money is always the easiest incentive to follow because there are numbers and you know exactly how to benefit from it. Now, if you talk about like civil liberties, that's kind of hard to measure. And in some ways, you just have to go and see with feet on the ground what's actually happening. And if your lifestyle will benefit from this move or will it go. down. So that's definitely lots of personal consideration. Like I'm currently in the United States, right? There is a reason for me to be here. And I have this immigration skill that I can move to

Starting point is 00:27:50 literally any country in the world. And I'm yet choosing to stay in Texas for the time being. So it just need to make sense for you personally. And for many, even Bitcoiners, it still does. Okay. Yeah. And you did mention that, you know, that is one thing we're considering here in the U.S. as you said, for the few after who may not know, you could go and live at another country, Japan, Thailand, Turkey, wherever, and you're working there. Uncle Sam is still going to tax you. So that's one of the major things to consider if for some reason you do want to give up that citizenship. And now we have an exit tax in case you want to give it up. I think, and you may know, I think it's like $2,000 to $3,000 if you want to renounce for some reason.

Starting point is 00:28:28 So $2,000, $3,000 to the renunciation, $2,600 is the cost of the renunciation program. The exit tax is 40% on all of your assets of unrealized capital gains above $2 million. Get the fuck out of here. I had no clue. Yep. And that's why Roger Ver is currently in prosecution because he renounced his citizenship. And he underdeclared something according to the court proceedings. And then basically he exited.

Starting point is 00:29:01 He paid the exit tax some of it. And then he went out and started sponsoring and throwing Bitcoin at all the startups and B-Cash world. And they're like, wait a second. How come you're donating way more than you declared last year? So that's what basically got him. God, that's amazing. You know, we make fun of for years here. And I grew up during the Cold War.

Starting point is 00:29:22 We made fun of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Block. Oh, you people are keeping your people behind walls with machine guns. I'm like, that's sort of what's happening to a degree. If you leave, we will take part of your lifetime and effort as a penalty. Half. Half. Half. Give us half, basically.

Starting point is 00:29:40 That's insane. Yep. Yep. So let's say you're 50 years old and you're exiting. Over the last 30 years, you basically work for like 18. No. Okay. You work for 12 of it just so you can pay out the exit tax.

Starting point is 00:29:55 You spend 12 years just to give up your citizenship. That's amazing. The current administration have mentioned that they are considering canceling the citizenship-based taxation, which is new because they haven't been mentioned in a while, and we should just really be more allowed about it. Because the history shows that it doesn't benefit the country actually, even in terms of taxes. We all know that economic freedom leads to economic prosperity. So how about we let people choose because there are so many wealthy folks that would love to live in the United States. However, they don't do that because they know about this whole exit tax.

Starting point is 00:30:40 So they can't relocate for four years and build an empire here and then leave because half of the money will stay back, basically. I never thought of it from that perspective. I was only considering the first order of facts as preventing like, you know, American citizens from going elsewhere. But I never even considered the fact that like, no, it might prevent other people from coming. here because they can never take it with them if they want to do afterwards. It's very, very interesting. Gary, do you have any other follow-ups on that? Or sorry, go ahead, Katie. Go ahead, Katie. Do you know about the gold card or Trump card, as they call it? Basically, United States announced that they're going to basically allow your citizenship by investment program

Starting point is 00:31:17 where you invest $5 million. And it's still unclear either it's a donation or it's an investment into the U.S. economy. But then you get it. By U.S. economy, do they mean? mean Trump directly? Exactly. So we still don't have any clarity. And we are hearing that Elon Musk is integrating it into the USCIS website, which is United States Immigration Department. So you get a gold card.

Starting point is 00:31:45 This gold card is basically a green card. So your permanent residency, which allows you to apply for citizenship tomorrow. But on your gold card, you are not subject to citizenship-based taxation. Oh. Oh. Right? Oh, okay. I mean, you're already basically paying it with a $5 million, so I guess there's a discount on the back.

Starting point is 00:32:10 It's all relative, Gary. That might be the most affordable way for a lot of clients out there. That's fair. I'm nowhere near there yet, but yeah, that's sure. The great thing is we are now initiating this conversation that some folks want to live in the U.S., want to bring and bring their capital and build something here without this exit tax. So this gold card will basically be the showcase of the U.S. government that, look, you would rather prevent all these people from coming in and building just so your citizens

Starting point is 00:32:43 can't leave with their money. Like, let's reconsider it. And then with those who actually relocate out of the U.S. and don't renounce, like just let them pay taxes, whatever they actually leave, whatever. Like, don't we say that we pay taxes for quote-unquote civilized society and the roads, whatever? If you say that, at least, like, let them pay for the roads where they're at, which is, I obviously don't believe in this whole. Could I just get a bill for the roads and we'll be done with this? Like, I'll just, I'll pay for this stretch of highway.

Starting point is 00:33:16 Yeah. And you just leave me alone from here. But that's, that's really, it's fascinating to me. It feels like, it feels like, it feels like Bitcoiners are just creeping into every part of society. Like, it feels like there must have been somebody in Trump's team. There's like, hey, you know, this Mesa guy had some great ideas. Let me just share a few with you. It can stare us in the right direction.

Starting point is 00:33:36 Okay, pivoting for a quick second, so it's kind of curious. I'm curious, Katie, if there are jurisdictions. I know you've heard you break it down. Maybe you can expand upon a bit more of this idea of passport versus residency, kind of considering them as two separate entities. I'm wondering if there are any kind of passports or places that Bitcoiners should be considering that you would maybe think, surprising or not obvious. Like El Salvador feels very obvious. Like that one is like easy go-to,

Starting point is 00:34:01 make it happen. It makes sense. I'm wondering if there's any surprises out there. Like, no, actually this one is getting better and better. It's definitely worth considering this passport. You wouldn't think so, but it's super helpful. And then kind of a tail on that question as well, too, is you're coming from a very unique perspective being both a mother and a bitcoiner. I'm wondering if you have, and maybe they're the same place. Recommendations for places, we'll say for residency to check out for families. and recommendations for residency to check out if you're, we'll say, single guy Bitcoiner. Yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 00:34:34 All right, a few things to get right out of the way. If you are eligible for citizenship by descent anywhere in a world, meaning that you can claim your citizenship based on your ancestral roots, so your grandparents are coming from Europe or from Latin America, you must do that. This is a no-brainer. Doesn't matter what jurisdiction it is. It doesn't matter where they stand politically, as long as they don't prevent dual citizenship, go and get it now. It's the second passport. Passport is the ultimate document in the flat theory setup. So just go ahead and get it. And like, for example, I mean, I'm looking at your last name and I want to say you have some European ancestral roots.

Starting point is 00:35:18 But for example, in Canada, obviously it was a French, lots of Czech or Slovak citizens. And they should go ahead. and claim those because, for example, Slovakia doesn't even have the limit on how many generations back you can go. So as long as we can prove the lineage all the way to great, great grandparent or something, we can still get you that citizenship. So that's step one. No brainer, go get it done. No investment necessary. Just get the process going. After that, we go into, okay, let's consider our citizenship by investment program. They are pricey. They're 250K plus, basically. Doesn't make sense for me now. Obviously, only at a certain wealth point, the $250,000 program makes sense.

Starting point is 00:36:06 A lot of American and Canadian folks just still going for a Caribbean citizenship. So, for example, Antigua and Burbuda is the most Bitcoin-friendly. You can prove source of funds and proof of funds on chain, just basically signing a message and explaining to them. This is where my money came from. and they're usually cool with that. So Antigua under one year, no visitation requirements, the entire family, including your parents who are 55 plus, your kids under 29, you all can get citizenship

Starting point is 00:36:38 in one year for the price of around 300,000 for a family. That's not bad. You can break it down a person, big family. Yeah, yeah. For big families, definitely Antigua makes the most sense. And to be clear, I started interrupting everybody's included because when you first said El Salvador was like 10 Bitcoin. I'm like, is that just for me? And I got to go pay something extra for the kids. Like, you have to choose one of your kids here who can come and who can say.

Starting point is 00:37:03 So everybody's included. For El Salvador, they only allow to include your spouse and children under 18. As many children as you have under 18, they can be included. Okay. For Antigua, they actually allow children who are above 18, as long as there's somewhat financially dependent on you. if they're in school, that's definitely an approval. And for elderly parents, they can be included as well. So it's better for me if my over 18 kids are delinquents. I'm better off. Basically.

Starting point is 00:37:32 Okay, just checking. Okay, cool. Continue. And then there's some variable costs. Government fees, etc. will be additional to every applicant, but the donation itself doesn't really change. And then another really cool program is, Portugal. While Portugal is in the EU, the lifestyle-wise and taxes-wise, it's pretty nice.

Starting point is 00:37:56 And it's very family-friendly, English-speaking, like every second person speaks pretty solid English. So the cool thing about Portugal, while it's not citizenship by investment program right away, it is residency by investment first and leads you to citizenship five years later without relocation requirement. So basically, and the other cool thing is no opportunity. For Bitcoiners, the biggest thing is, I'm not going to buy passport until Bitcoin hits 300K. And then the question is, will you actually need it before Bitcoin hits 300K or after? Because the price versus value changes depending on geopolitical situation. With Portugal, the cool thing is that it's a citizenship, it's a residency by investment, golden visa.

Starting point is 00:38:44 You have to invest half a million euro into a fund. The fund must be qualified for a golden visa, which means 60% plus of the fund go into local company. Well, now with all the companies running Bitcoin on their balance sheet and doing Bitcoin accumulation vehicle, whatever this Portugal company just holds Bitcoin on your behalf. So now you're just huddling Bitcoin all the way to citizenship in Portugal, which is something we now offer. Well, I do at Hummy Passport. Yeah, so Portugal is definitely another cool option.

Starting point is 00:39:22 Turkey is great because it's truly on the other side of political spectrum. It has like this religious layer of protection. They will never fully connect with the Christian world. So it's like a country outside of your current setup, definitely. And in Turkey, you buy 400,000 dollars worth of real estate and that qualifies you for citizenship. But three years later, you sold the real estate, but you came to citizenship. So there are many options. If I were considering it right now, let's say as an American or Canadian,

Starting point is 00:39:56 if I wanted to have a full setup, I would, depending on my level of wealth, I would consider definitely El Salvador just because it's a very strong passport. It is not well known for selling citizenship. It's a new program, unlike Caribbean. it is the fastest program, so I'd have passport in two months, and I'm supporting what they're doing down there, so part of that. If that's a little too much price-wise, and it's a million-dollar, not investment, it's a donation, then I would consider teaming up between Portugal and Caribbean Island, perhaps, so getting

Starting point is 00:40:35 passport from the Caribbean country, $300K for the entire family, plus hodling my way to Portuguese citizenship through the Golden Visa program. If I was a single Bitcoiner in my first cycle just trying to stack as hard as I can, I would just keep my remote job, try to maximize income and earnings, and move to Latin America to minimize expenses and leave a solid lifestyle. I personally, throughout COVID, spent lots of time in Mexico. I was renting a really nice, too-bedom apartment for $1,000. I had meat from a local grass fed butchery, right?

Starting point is 00:41:16 Like, the cow is hanging and they're taking pieces off of it just to give me. I had great produce. Everything was cheap. I was on the same time zone as the U.S. It was pretty convenient. So if I was a single-bict winner, minimize my expenses, maximize income, and stack hard. Very cool. It's funny.

Starting point is 00:41:36 You mentioned there's a thousand bucks for that apartment. That sounds absolutely beautiful. And that was cheaper. I think that my first apartment that I had to share in like Frosty minus 40 Canada. It's like just a couple hundred square feet. So probably, you know, looking back, it would have been, it would have been nice to have that information in the past as well, too. Gary, did you have any other follow-ups on that? Yeah, here's another factor I'm considering.

Starting point is 00:41:55 And, you know, Nathan, you were touching on this earlier about how considering different countries that might have an adversarial relationship. So, you know, we talked about, you mentioned this as well, Katie, extradition is something that you might want to consider as well. So let's say I do get a passport to some Caribbean country. That's great. And let's say for some crazy reason, I need to flee the U.S. and set up shop there. Maybe the government's out to get me. How much should I be thinking of real politic in this, in the sense that, okay, I'm, I guess, safe in this Caribbean nation. But if Uncle Sam really wants to come get me, even if the Caribbean nation says no, Uncle Sam has the guns and they can still come and get me.

Starting point is 00:42:35 So how much should I be factoring in having a passport with a country where they could actually stop somebody who wants to extradite me? Yeah. Well, how big of a fish you are, it would be the question. I'm nobody. And it's hypothetical. You're a medium good catch. Okay. Let's go with that.

Starting point is 00:42:54 Well, let's start with McCaffee level. You know, Macaw- Okay. Oh, yeah. Yes. So I actually interviewed him like six months before he was caught. and he was talking to me from a bunker somewhere in the Caribbean and like we all kind of knew that he must be somewhere in a Caribbean

Starting point is 00:43:12 nobody really knew where exactly but the guy literally like he's clearly very wealthy individual and he literally tweeted at IRS that he hasn't filed in eight years that was the only reason how they figured out that this guy hasn't filed because he damn tweeted at them it's like I mean first of all don't be stupid second consider how big of a fish you are and how

Starting point is 00:43:39 incentivized they are of actually going after you so for prominent big winners probably should be careful like let's say people like Adam back he's currently in Malta he's been in Malta for a while there is a reason he's not in the mainland

Starting point is 00:43:57 EU there's a reason he's clearly not living in the jurisdiction he was born at, right? So he's strategizing in this regard. There are some Bitcoiners who never come to the U.S. Bitcoin conferences. Again, there's a good reason for that. So consider all those things, realize what countries do extradite. At what point would you actually be afraid of extradition? And then while you are afraid of like state actor attack is almost inevitable if they really want you.

Starting point is 00:44:36 Like if a sovereign state want to get you, they probably will somehow. So while you are considering those geopolitical things, you also need to consider the $5-dollar wrench attack of you moving to a country that doesn't have extradition, but a random guy on the street wants your 100 bucks. So all those things to be considered definitely. Yeah, very fair point. I appreciate that.

Starting point is 00:45:03 I'm curious and I know we're kind of, where are we are? Like about 40 minutes. We have some time. But I do want to ask you, before we finish at some point, I'd love for you to talk about your personal Bitcoin journey. Yeah, man. I always say that I'm like this guy in Slumdog Millionaire movie whose life experiences led him to the point where he knew all the answer. for the Who Wants to Be a millionaire show. I'm in the same way except I just was prepared to be a big winner

Starting point is 00:45:35 and a passport lady throughout my whole life. By the age of 20, I lived through two hyperinflations in my country. And I recognized it. Like the second one, I was already fully aware of what is happening and how it affects me. I remember when Crimea crisis started, me and the national team were together. together in Palma de Mallorca. And we were there for 45 days. And I have this budget.

Starting point is 00:46:02 I'm, what, 19-year-old, I'm budgeting my trip for the World Cup. And I'm realizing that over the last three days, the budget just shranked in half. Just because the Russian ruble lost half of its value compared to Europe or a US dollar. I was like, wait a second. I'm studying economics.

Starting point is 00:46:26 and finance. And like, yeah, explain to me what's happening here. So when I live through that, I already recognize that the money is broken and we need to find something better. Plus having my bank account shut down for no reason all the time, like being in a 40-country and my car just stops working because sometimes they think it's fraud, something else and then I can never access my funds. So lack of radical ownership as a Russian who doesn't who doesn't trust the government. In Russia, we just have this in our DNA. We just don't trust

Starting point is 00:47:05 the government ever because it's 100 years. We had monarchy. We had communism. We had democracy with the same president for 20 years. So like we have this lack of trust. And yeah, money that is not issued by the state is something we've been seeking. and Bitcoin brought me that. So it was only a matter of time until I just learned enough in order to become a Bitcoiner. And I got lucky I was at the right time,

Starting point is 00:47:34 in the right place, at a shit coin conference doing interviews for somebody who asked me to be their translator. And I was like, okay, what book do I read? And somehow the shit coin conference guy just tells me, oh, readmastering Bitcoin. And now looking back, I'm like,

Starting point is 00:47:51 this was ICO, if you guys remember. CEO conference. And like somehow he recommended me a good book that actually Orange built me. So Katie, you got the sense of this for a long time. You know, you can't trust the money. Your country's debanking you. And I feel like I'm quite certain of it. That's much more the norm around the world for many of the 8 billion humans on Earth than it is the not the norm. So how did you make the connection when so many other people don't seem to make that connection. I definitely had the previous position to be a big-pointer. Just growing up in a very freedom-minded family, entrepreneurial family, I was truly ready to be a bit-coiner once I learned

Starting point is 00:48:40 enough. I was also learning English at the time. And at the time, I don't think there was much information in my native tongue whatsoever. So, like, at nights, I would just try. to go through the Bitcoin White Paper, not understanding a thing, no AI to translate things yet. So just like regular Google translator, I'm trying to understand what this guy meant. Well, eight years later, I'm still trying to understand what this guy manned, even so he can't speak English. But yeah, just kind of got lucky in some ways. Gotcha.

Starting point is 00:49:17 I have one more, but Nathan, if you have something you want to jump in with, please go ahead. You go for it. I'll hold mine. So you just mentioned how, again, you could be debanked in your country. You had a history of monarchy, communism, and now, quote, unquote, democracy with the same guy in charge for 20 years. These are all red flags that say, hey, maybe I might not be doing all that great here. What are some red flags that you would recommend people should look for in countries that don't necessarily have that type of history, but might be moving that way in the future? I mean, the lack of freedom of speech is pretty concerning.

Starting point is 00:49:53 Again, what's happening both in Canada and the UK. Like this whole hate speech, right? Who are the judges? It's always the question. Who are the judges? When the freedom of speech ends and the hate speech starts, how do we determine that? So this cultural swing towards accommodating everyone and everything unless make sure you never offend anybody. that's pretty concerning to me.

Starting point is 00:50:22 Yeah, that's something that we are definitely moving towards in many jurisdictions around the world. And that's just like the first big thing of burn the books, consider what's true, what's not. So as we deviate further from like the universal truth, that's because we are trying to accommodate cultural. I don't know. You know what I mean.

Starting point is 00:50:49 No, I know what you're saying, cultural relativism and, you know, speech restrictions. I guess maybe to just hammer it a little bit more specifically, are there any red flags you see for countries that maybe move away from rule of law towards rule of men? Because I feel like that's the real big fundamental difference where, yeah, you can get tossed in the gulag or have anything happened to you because we're not bound by due process and courts anymore. And if you don't have any answer to that, that's no problem. But you've already given us so much information.

Starting point is 00:51:18 and you're so well-versed in all this, but I figured I just toss it out there. I mean, if I truly speak from my heart, I'd say nobody's protected by the law. Like, the real things that are protected by the law is like shot 256 protecting our Bitcoin because it's truly unseasonable. The rest is in a physical world, and it's only the matter of you crossing somebody else's path

Starting point is 00:51:43 in a wrong place in a wrong time. That's a fair point. Like, you can be a super low-biting citizen, but if you piss somebody off in any jurisdiction in the world, that might cause you some trouble. So nobody's truly safe. You may try and be, like, I think cultural protection is actually a big deal. And I think that's what we have going for us in the U.S. because we the people being raised with the Constitution. I mean, I wasn't raised by the Constitution.

Starting point is 00:52:18 But having this fundamental document just culturally gets us to the point where we demand the freedom. And this demand for freedom by the culture is what gets a lot of jurisdiction through the crisis of personal freedom, lack of personal freedom. It's a really fair insight. Yeah. All right. Nate? No, I completely agree. And I love that question there, Gary.

Starting point is 00:52:48 Because when you mentioned this idea of like cultural protection as well, too, the first thing that came to mind was like in a recent memory, how many places around the world have kind of failed, right? Like they, when the chips were down and everybody was scared, they threw those, those, you know, individual protections out the window for the greater good quite quickly. like even as a as a Canadian here I envy the US I definitely eye up Texas in particular I always thought like oh that might be a nice wonderful place to check out one day too or El Salvador or maybe look at Portugal like the idea is that like I'm well aware and it's funny because it's at the end of the day Gary right it's just men with guns right and it's what's the what is the tolerance from the existing population because that's be tolerated by everybody that's here and so for example let's say that you know Canada decides you know we're going to go after the Bitcoiners you guys have been a a noisy bunch and you're causing us some problems. I'm not confident. Now, in Alberta, it's a little

Starting point is 00:53:42 different. So now I have an interesting kind of game playing out here that I need to see what happens, but I'm not confident that my fellow Canadians wouldn't just throw me in the Gulloch. Like they would not necessarily be like, no, no, no, he's, you know, he hasn't done anything. That's his well. This is what he come. I don't feel protected by having shared values with the people that I'm cohabitating with, for lack of a better term. It puts, you. It probably is some of the jurisdictions that we've mentioned previously, but just to round out that topic as well, too. I think going to where like-minded people are that share your values

Starting point is 00:54:16 is going to be an incredibly important decision, or currently where in fact are in making your decision and necessarily relocate. Would it be right to assume that, like, Portugal, El Salvador, that would be necessarily the place, or is there anything else that, like, Bitcoiners, if you want to be around your tribe, make sure you're checking out here as well.

Starting point is 00:54:33 Texas? Texas is. No, seriously. We have a very recent showcase for where to go. Because in the COVID times, who stand up against all this draconian regime, which places would just discredit the whatever policy was thrown at them? When I was in Mexico, Mexico had all the same mask up and get vaccinated thing, but nobody cared because there's, again, this lack of respect towards government

Starting point is 00:55:04 and lack of respect towards cops. I was throwing a dance competition like in the heart of COVID on the main street of Guadalajara. The cops are coming and started to take picture of us. In my super broken Spanish, I grabbed microphone and I started like yelling at the cop because I realized like that's privacy issues.

Starting point is 00:55:25 I'm literally throwing all those people under the bus. The cops are making pictures of us. So I'm telling her that's my constitutional rights and she has no right to take pictures and she better to live them off her phone. own. My by Spanish is super bad. Stop-o taking O pictures, oh. I swear she got scared.

Starting point is 00:55:44 She was like, please look. I'm deleting it right away because there is no this culture of like, oh, I'm the cop. I'm the authority. And it's a surprise for Americans because in Russia, it's also like the cops are not the top of society. They're more like the bottom. Really? So that's something to consider as well.

Starting point is 00:56:06 I would not have expected that coming from like such a long-time authoritarian regime. I figured whatever the cop says, they're going to do. They can stomp their boot on you and that's it. No, in Mexico, it was very, very easy to just, this is not your right. You are stepping on my toes and I'm not cool with that step back. Yeah. Very cool. It's funny, just quick aside on that note too.

Starting point is 00:56:30 I spent some time in Mexico for music back in the day. And the only time I ever felt like really uncomfortable or unsafe in Mexico was actually when the cops stopped me. That was like walking around night, hanging out with friends. It was no issues. The cops stopped me and it was like I don't, I don't have Spanish. I have to work on it. I would have to spend some time there. But either the cops did not understand any English or refused to speak to me in English. And I don't know what they were upset about. But thank God, I just happened to have a friend I knew walking by stop and get me at. And it's the same sort thing. I don't know what he was saying to him, but he kind of came up and berated the cops a little bit and they let me go.

Starting point is 00:57:03 Yeah. Nathan, I thought you were going to say, thank goodness I had a 20 in my pocket. Yeah. I mean, that honestly solves lots of problems in the world. There is, when you're thinking of these against security models and adversarial situations, there is something to perhaps being able to, let's say, grease the wheels to deal with situations

Starting point is 00:57:23 that may actually be an advantage. It may actually be a situation. It's like that can kind of be helpful. Another differentiator between jurisdictions is bribery. Like bribery truly exists in the US. It's just on a super high level and it's called lobbying. While in Mexico, let's say, the bribery is on a way more decentralized way and like

Starting point is 00:57:48 everybody pays everybody for the things they want. So it's like bribery truly exists everywhere, just which level it's allowed in. Human incentives. That's an age old tale that I'm sure will never go away. Well, Katie, thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with us. who wants to get in touch with you with Citizen X that they're considering this sort of thing or they want to follow some spicy takes on Twitter, where should we direct them to? Yeah, so Plin B passport is my handle on Twitter. Reach out to me via email Katie at CitizenX.com. On CitizenX, we actually have extremely clear way for you to research any jurisdiction

Starting point is 00:58:28 to truly know what's going to be the dollar per dollar price for your entire family. You can create an account, add your dependents, your children, your spouse and see which jurisdiction would be allowed for you specifically would work for you. And then you can schedule a free consultation call right there and talk to me and let's brainstorm together on which jurisdiction suits you the best. If you enjoy this episode with Katie, please do like and subscribe and check out the previous episode with Freedom Activists from Hong Kong, Nathan Law.

BTC Sessions - "Nobody's Protected by the Law" Bitcoiners Prepare TO BE TARGETED | Katie Ananina

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