BTC Sessions - Powell Is About To FORCE Bitcoin VERTICAL — Larry Fink Warns Investors | Joe Bryan, Hillebrand, Knut

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Jerome Powell’s next move could send Bitcoin vertical—and BlackRock’s Larry Fink is already sounding the alarm. Joe Bryan, Max Hillebrand, and Knut Svanholm join BTC Sessions to break down the financial pressure cooker building under the surface—and why investors must pay attention now.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/satmojoehttps://x.com/knutsvanholmMax on NOSTR: https://njump.me/npub1klkk3vrzme455yh9rl2jshq7rc8dpegj3ndf82c3ks2sk40dxt7qulx3vtFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCp#btc #bitcoin #crypto

When the Fed inevitably restarts QE, it all but guarantees double-digit inflation. We're talking about potential currency destruction on a scale and a speed that America has never seen. Now, that is just a snippet from a new article from ZeroHedge. We're going to take a look at in a moment. Today, meanwhile, everyone is celebrating the Fed cutting interest rates. Stocks are pumping, headlines are glowing, and the talking heads are calling it a turning point. But Bitcoiners and others are seeing through the illusion for what it really is. Buried inside today's move is something no one wants to admit, a signal that something deep beneath

the surface has cracked. Because this wasn't really a victory lap, it was more of a surrender, an admission that the money, the institutions, and the very foundations of the global economy are beginning to crumble beneath our feet. On the other side of this, we have Larry Fink from Black. Kroc even, saying something striking about the dynamic shift between Bitcoin and gold that perfectly captures what Powell's decision today actually means for sentiment of your average person. So today we're going to be talking about something that is kind of hiding in plain sight.

The thing that tells us everything has changed and why this Fed decision may be one of the linchpin moments where people look back and say that this is where the system was breaking. Today on Why Are We Bullish to discuss this and much, much more bullishness, we have an incredible panel of guests. We've got Joe Brian, entrepreneur, ex-Goldman Sachs, and creator of What's the Problem? If you haven't seen it, go watch it. Max Hillebrand, Praxeologist, open source contributor to projects like Wasabi Wallet, BTC Pay Server, and more recently White Noise. And Knutz Vanholm, one of my favorite Bitcoin thinkers and author,

of the epic everything divided by 21 million so uh strap in drop a like on the video i am ben with the btc sessions this is your bullish session i want to welcome to the stage joe bnuch fan home and max hillebrand gentlemen thank you so much for being here i appreciate you guys coming to get bullish with me on a wednesday evening uh still evening for i think everybody here uh but i wanted to see a little bit of a starting topic for us just to chat a little bit about where we're at. And I wanted to share with you guys this Zero Hedge article from today that came out. And this is talking about the feds kind of pivot, return of easy money. So I'm just going to read a little excerpt here.

So speaking at the National Association for Business Comics Conference in Philadelphia, recently, Jerome Powell said, our long-slated plan to stop balance sheet runoff when reserves are somewhat above the level we judge consistent with ample reserves conditions, we may approach that point in the coming months. Translation here, the money printer is warming back up. Now, if you've been paying attention,

this shouldn't come as a surprise. The playbook has been obvious for a while. First come rate cuts, which are happening now. Then they stop quantitative tightening. Powell has confirmed this. And then comes quantitative easing or good old fashion money printing probably sometime in early 2026. So what is forcing their hand? Even without President Trump's constant pressure, the Fed doesn't really have a choice.

The job market is collapsing. Companies have announced pretty close to a million job cuts so far this year. 55% jump for 2024 and the highest since 2020, immediately within the pandemic. Meanwhile, Americans are searching help with mortgage on Google at levels not seen since 2008. Mortgage rates around 6.3%, which is double the 3% rates most locked in during the beginning of the pandemic. And inflation is compounding 10 to 15% over four years. Homeowners are tapped out. The Fed can't fix these problems with rate cuts alone.

So they're moving to the next phase, ending QT and firing up QE soon after. And that little excerpt that I mentioned at the end, they're talking about the Fed balance sheet. And they tried to rein it in a little bit, but like here's the chart of all the money printing they did. And they paired it back by around a quarter, so about 27%. But now they're like, all right, we're done with this. We're done with this. And so they're basically saying the new normal is a $6.6 trillion dollar balance sheet, about 60% higher than before. they destroyed everything with all the money printing for COVID. And then the problem they're in is that when they inevitably start doing QE to bring down long-term

rates, it'll be starting from a $6.6 trillion balance sheet. And that's where they go into say the inflation with starting QE at those levels is going to probably hurt a lot. And they talk about potential currency destruction on a scale. and at a speed America has never seen. So with that exciting start to the show, I hope you guys are feeling cheery and optimistic. Maybe Joe, I wanted to start with you. What are you looking at currently with where we're at in general, both as, say, your average middle class person that's just trying to go about their lives and make ends meet versus.

where Bitcoiners are at and how they can kind of weather the storm. Well, I think they're in radically different places right now. I mean, the bitcoins, we look at these articles and we see through it. We see it, we see it for what it is. It's entirely predictable. Yeah. And, you know, you have the Fed and you have the powers that be it that try and put a narrative around these things, that try and anchor them to some sort of mysterious background forces

that they're trying to sort of tame by intervening when it's really just them driving the entire thing and then trying to justify it and communicate it to the public in a way which obfuscates the fact that they're the ones driving all of these things. And it's very hard for people to connect the dots on it. And it's only when you do some work, which most people don't have the time or the inclination

or really the motivation to do because no one's ever given them that sort of little nudge in the right direction for you to start putting these things together and so I think it's very, very hard and some of the statistics that you showed in that article are shocking I mean you've seen the Google trends

the searches this is just pressure building within the system. We see the same thing every 10, 15 years. You know, this time it's different. The banks get cleaned up. They get a fresh balance sheet. And they just do exactly the same thing again.

The same business model rolls out 10 and 15 years later. It's easy credit, lower credit checks, more and more debt until it just blows up again. And yeah, I mean, it's just so entirely predictable. But you know, you look at that chart where they're expanding the balance sheet and then they're trying to contract it again. It's really just a straight line. Sometimes they, sometimes they friend of it too much and then they try and roll it back. But it's the same with the money supply. The money supply, we had the big, it's almost exactly the same chart and now that's breaking new highs, new highs again.

And so it's extremely hard for people right now, extremely hard for families. you know, we sit here in a somewhat privileged position because you can see what's happening. If you were finding yourself, you know, trying to look after your family, provide for them, and seeing things become ever harder and not knowing why, that's a really depressing place to be. Because at least for us, we have a huge amount of hope because we know it doesn't have to be this way and we can take steps to protect ourselves, but for vast majority people, don't have to hope. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I see it day-to-day, you know, hope, hope in the eyes of Bitcoiners and, you know, just straight up nihilism with the people that don't understand. There's, there's a release valve. Canute, I want to get your take here on, on where we're currently at. Do you think we're on the cusp of something breaking? Do you think that they can, effectively kick the can down the road a little bit longer, keep people in the matrix for a little while longer? I prefer the metaphor of the snowball down the hill because it's more accurate.

So the thing is, yeah, I'll try to make this as simple as possible. If human beings practice doing anything, do they usually get worse or better at the thing they're practicing? And the obvious answer is we get better at stuff. So the follow-up question that no one asks themselves is, so why aren't all prices falling forever? And if you put on the Bitcoin goggles, they are. So even a zero percent inflation in fiat currency,

meaning that the prices remain somewhat stable, also leads to a hockey stick curve type hyperinflation scenario. Because we get better at doing stuff, human beings get better at producing and transporting, delivering goods and services at an exponential pace. Especially now with AI is the latest thing here. 10 years ago or 20 years ago, it was the mobile phones that made everything better and made people better at coordinating themselves and so on and so forth. And they have to print to keep up with how much better we get at doing stuff. which means that it gets worse and worse over time,

and every single fiat currency will hyperinflate at some point. They all have to die. The politicians have no choice but to print more money. The other option would be to take the hit and stop the printing and reverse the whole thing. But no one wants to do that because they're only there for four years and they want to give this baton to the next runner because anything else would be a social suicide. And furthermore, they can't even do that. It's so baked into this system that it's unstoppable.

And it will lead to hyperinflation. It will lead to civil unrest and wars in the end. It will lead to violence. There's no way out of it except Bitcoin, which is the way out of it. Because you can actually view the world through a more accurate lens. If you have the Bitcoin goggles on, you can see that your house is worth less than it was five years ago, than it was 10 years ago,

because Bitcoin more accurately represents what's actually going on in the world. And it's just depressing to see that. Once you see it, in hindsight, everything is so simple, right? When you get some of this, like when you grok Pythagoras, theorem or something. Like it's so simple in hindsight. Like it's obvious. And this is, it, it affects every single human being on earth. And 99% of us are oblivious to it. And it's, it just boggles the mind that the lie has been allowed to go on for so long. Yeah. Max, I want to toss it to you. I'd love you to also put on your Bitcoin goggles and, uh, and maybe your

your freedom, optimism, goggles. You know, where are we at? Where are we headed? How do we navigate this? And maybe for the people that are entering the room here that are kind of new to this, is there a solution? Yeah, to riff a bit more on what Knud said. Once humans practice something, they get better at it.

Now look at how much they practiced money printing. They got really, really good at money printing. And if you have a talent, you might as well use it and do your best at it. And that's clearly their mission. They had a tremendous success in increasing the money supply, which of course led to the incredible enrichment of those who received us newly created money first. Governments, banks, big corporations, the military industrial complex, etc. They've had a gravy drain and sure they'd like it to continue. The thing is stealing comes with an opportunity cost.

And if you steal from people, all of a sudden, they don't like to work so much anymore, because why if everything gets sold away from you? And then if you have to enforce more and more nonsensical rules, putting everyone in the gulag is very inefficient as well. Not just do you have to pay for the food and the guards and the shelter, but, you know, I have to shoot the people who try to escape, etc. It's just a nasty business that gets more and more complex at scale. So yeah, the Fiat system will continue to do its thing. It's quite unstoppable. And we'll have to deal with that. It's a sad part of reality.

Thankfully, we do a freedom tech. So to a very, very large extent, we can simply opt out of these systems of slavery by choosing to use different technologies. And in the modern day, it just means downloading an app. That's literally all you have to do nowadays to be sovereign. It's kind of ridiculous. Or, I mean, there's other things you can do. But just by downloading a couple of apps, you're making an insane difference. So I guess where to start?

Good operating system. Switch to Graphene OS. Protect your IP address. Use the TOR network. Use VPN. Then, of course, use a Bitcoin wallet on mobile. I guess cake wallet is one worth a shout out. Phoenix, great for lightning.

We have a bunch of e-cash wallet now, Kashiu.me or mini bits. Then, of course, speak freely. That's where a Nostar comes in. Get Amethyst, a great client all around that does basically anything you wanted to do. Install Amber, which will be your Nostra comes in. private key manager app, a little bit like a wallet for your speech, manages your keys. And you can get Citrine, which is a Noster relay that runs locally on your Android phone.

Quite ridiculous, right? So you'll have an actual backup of your cryptographically signed notes and those of your friends, if you would like to. And, yeah, that's, you know, that takes like half a day, not even to set this up. And afterwards, you will feel a tangible, like meaningful difference. So go ahead, try. It's interesting because you're right. There's all these different tools to free yourself from the tyranny of the existing system. and it takes a little bit of elbow grease just to familiarize yourself with them and then

and then you freed yourself of that system you know yeah you're still jurisdictionally dependent on on where you are but like the money printing you exit that you know with with just a little bit of familiarity and for those watching again we've had a lot of newcomers come over the over the course of this year popping into shows like this. And they may be coming from a place where, oh, I got interested in Bitcoin because I bought micro strategy or something. But you're in the room now and you're listening to this conversation. And what you need to realize is that the freedom doesn't come from having exposure to

the thing that saves you from money printing. The freedom comes from actually holding the better money yourself in a censorship-resistant way. So when Max is preaching all of these incredible tools that are right at your fingertips that are an app download away, you should genuinely be looking at these tools and investigate, download, look at it, see how it works. Plenty of your tutorials that I have on the channel too, and you can absolutely go down that rabbit hole. But like, all it takes is a simple app and you've already begun frame yourself. Now, I saw Canute doing one of these earlier. Did you have something you wanted to tag in there when Max was talking?

Yeah, I'd like to do the Soviet Union analogy here because this is what we're living through. We have more freedom tools, sure, but I'd like to point out that even the elite, the so-called elite, which is the most successful thieves in society, would have it so much better if they just stopped meddling with our affairs.

Like everyone, every boat rises with the tide and theirs would too. So it's so ridiculous. Also, when Max says it's just downloading an app, he actually means put 10,000 days of studies into how to do all these things. Then you have this list of things you need to do. That is, you have to be the eber nerd of probably your nation, if not your continent.

But yeah, to some it's easy. The journey of 10,000 miles starts with a single step, my friend. Yes, a man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Yeah. And these things get easier over time as well. Like the improvement in the UX that we're seeing year over year in all of these tools and the accessibility and the reliability and the, yeah, just the product iteration that's coming through this very clear free market. that we all live in is rapidly improving these things. And so, you know, the barrier for getting comfortable with them,

getting activated with them is coming down all the time. Absolutely. I just wanted to, before we kind of put a bow on this topic here, and before I start finding out why you guys are bullish, I did want to address, there's one comment that I just saw here. And I'm not, I'm not. bringing up this comment to like, you know, pick at what somebody's saying, but more to just kind of have a genuine suggestion of how to examine this line of thinking for people to think about,

because a lot of people, myself included early on, would think in this way. And this person is saying that stable coins hold up nice after the cycles are over and then buy at the bottom, easy game. A lot of people initially start with that mentality and it comes from a place of I will I will play the game of the fluctuations of the price of Bitcoin and it comes from a place of trying to obtain more dollars. But at the end of the day, the dollar is always going to have less purchasing power. Sorry, I mean, another way to look at it is there will be an infinite amount of dollars forever and there will be a finite amount of Bitcoin forever.

So Bitcoin is the thing that you want, even though you're looking at it and measuring it in dollars right now and it's doing this and that and the other thing. You want the Bitcoin. Exactly. Canute's book, everything divided by $21 million. The, you know, if you can get around it, if you can begin to understand that Bitcoin is the thing that you actually want and it's not the dollars and it's not the timing. It's very easy in retrospect to say, oh, when it was down, then you buy and when it's up, you sell and get dollars and then you rinse and repeat. But in practice, what that becomes is opportunity cost and you having a lot of money.

less Bitcoin over time. A better way to look at it is create value for others, spend less than you earn, and save the excess in money nobody can print, which is Bitcoin. Yeah, I would, like we've seen this before, right? The money is broken. Apart from this time, we have a permanent solution. And it's the only time in human history, we have had a permanent solution. And so to the person who wrote that comment, like, we've all started in that place. But if you, if you zoom out,

we are living through the Weimar Republic. It's just at a slower rate than it happened in Germany. And this happens everywhere. But if you then, if you were living through the deterioration of the, of the German currency, you would see the mark fluctuate wildly versus gold. It'd be up and down like 40%.

You know, we look back now. at those charts and we go well that was just so obvious that was so obvious of course you wouldn't hold the marks you'd just you'd sell them and just hold gold right because we see like the annual rate the annual exchange rate whereas if you zoom in and you see going up and down 40% or 80% like this but obviously going up over time you could level exactly the same argument there well I'll I'll I'll sell my gold and then I'll move back into marks and then I'll buy the I'll buy more gold

at the bottom. It's like you may get lucky on some of the timing, but you should just be holding gold, right? Because you know where it's going, because they're going to print an infinite amount. There you go. There's that chart. Like, look at it. It's almost like we planned it then. And so you can see, right? You'd be like, oh, well, there's a, you know, six month cycle or something like that in, in this gold price. You're like, no, just the money's destroyed. Like, look at this point deep into Weimar hyperinflation where the value of gold in German in the Weimar marks hit basically the low that it had hit, you know, lower than it was in 1917 and all through like the early 1910s, you know, just as low as some of the spikes like in the previous years. And at that point,

the amount of money printing that was happening there was unfathomable. And the crazy thing, too, is that the government would justify it by saying there's so much demand for cash. We need to satisfy the demand. And if we just print more, we'll satisfy the demand and things will work out. Like, this was the thinking then. And nobody knew how to value anything. And we didn't have, it wasn't as easy as.

today where you I mean, I say as easy as today, it's almost worse today because there, the, the constants are not any one currency that people actually are currently buying and pricing things in. It's things like Bitcoin and gold where it's, it's, you know, constant. Then it was like, okay, you're in Germany and your exposure is you live there. and you have German, you know, you have Weimar Marx. And that's just kind of your life. And you don't have easy reference to external currencies to understand.

Now it's kind of like every currency is playing the same game. But externally, you know, other countries, their currencies were stable comparatively. But internally, they had no idea of how to price things and what the average person would have no idea what's going on. So it's similar today, but like it's an extreme example of, Nobody knew what the hell was going on. The thing is you just need to zoom out. You understand what is happening from a systematic perspective.

There are always going to be human emotions and shorter term liquidity events and panics. Because Google Bitcoin is the only thing that trades 24-7 in a total free market. So when markets are panicking, they sell the thing they can, which is Bitcoin. And so I just encourage everyone just to just to zoom out and not focus on the short-term price moves and try not to time it because you know where it's ultimately going. The dollar is going to zero. Yeah.

Going to zero. But not as fast as the Canadian dollars go to zero. We got our own set of problems up here. We just, I was telling everybody before the show that the head of the, the central bank of Canada basically released a video today, more or less just telling us to lower expectations for quality of life. It's like, well, it's just kind of rough. He's like, there's things that we might be able to do, but like probably it sucks was more or less the messaging.

So if you're wondering how things are doing in Canada, great. Nonetheless, with that happy note, the reason, we're here is we want to find out why you gentlemen are so bullish and you know there's always reasons to be bullish on bitcoin and they're not always related to price in fact on this show quite seldom are they related to price it's it's more you know what is this doing for people and communities and lots of stuff to talk about so um i'm actually i'm i'm kind of just picking out of the blue but joe since since we just had a little bit of rent from you i'm going to actually go to Canute first.

And Canute, I'm going to give you the mic for a moment. And I'm going to ask you, why are you bullish? Oh, I'm bullish for all the reasons. Maybe I should do the Shoshank Redemption and Allergy here. I think that's a good one. So you've all seen the movie, right? The famous prison movie, one of the highest rated movies of all time. There's the protagonist, played by Tim Robbins, is called Andy Dufrain.

and he's got a friend, a fellow inmate called Red, played by Morgan Freeman, who warns him about having hope and warns him that hope is a dangerous thing. And he points to this 90-year-old inmate that was released and hung himself like two weeks after he's released. I believe that character's name is Brooks. So the thesis from Red and his friend is that hope is a dangerous thing because you better become institutionalized because you're going to die in here. And if you have hope, you're only going to get disappointed. These are the, when this Brooks character gets released,

he doesn't get the three free meals per day and he doesn't have his routine anymore and everything in freedom land is scary to him. It's just like releasing a lion at the zoo onto the savannah where he is free to do whatever he wants. And that's super scary. The thing is that the sort of message of the movie is that hope is never in vain. Because Andy spends his time digging a tunnel. He has a shit low time preference and starts digging a tunnel with a teaspoon. And like a decade later, he manages to escape the prison.

And this is true. This is always true. Hope is always a rational choice. No matter how high the Shawshank walls become around you, no matter how imprisoned you feel, because you're living in this Fiat system where everything sucks and everything gets worse and worse over time, though it ought to get better,

if you lose hope, they win. That's how the Soviet Union survived for 70 years and was basically a giant prison for everyone on, continent wide prison for everyone in it. And everyone was ratting out on one another. And everyone thought there was no alternative to the system until they just started questioning it and then laughing at it. And just they just stopped doing it because you don't have to do these things. You don't have to obey.

You don't have to follow the orders. You can live life on your own terms. And sure, there's a risk to that. and you might die a martyr, but at least, I mean, give me something good to die for to make it beautiful to live. What's the point of life otherwise? So I'd say hope is a rational choice

because you're going to fucking die anyway. So you might as well live as if Bitcoin has already succeeded. And when you do, everything becomes flowery and rainbowy. I don't mean in the part of my French gay sense. But I mean in the beautiful sense, not politically gay, but not politically rainbowy. Sorry, I'm struggling to find the words here. I'm from the Nordic after all.

But yeah, I'm bullish because of that. And I'm also bullish because we're all interconnected. There is no such thing as a circular economy. Every human being is connected to every other human being in some way, shape or form. And when we have Bitcoin, we're connected, we're literally connected to one another. We are part of the same system. We are all incentivized to be awesome to one another, help one another. That results, like the end point of that is 8 billion people working for 8 billion people. It's just insanely beautiful and we've barely scratched the surface. So what do you want to do?

Do you want to be red or do you want to be Andy? Like get the fuck out of prison. Live your own life. Reclaim the driver's seat. Excelsior. I love it. And of brand. That gives me a fire under my ass. I feel like I need to go revolt right now. I'll let, uh, you know, Joe and you are. You are Ben, like you are revolting.

That's what you're doing. I mean, it's not only dying your hair. It's like you're living. You're living this lifestyle. You've lived on a Bitcoin standard longer than all three of us, I think, maybe not Max. No one knows what Max does. Yeah, Max doesn't have anything. I'm going to be talking about it.

Max, this is, I feel like this probably fires you up a little bit too. Like what, you know, do you want to tag in anything to what Knoot was saying? Well, I'm, I'm just exceedingly bullish for the freedom tech that we're building. Because we have addressed so many existential problems, right? we've had a communication problem for the longest time, delivering packets reliably. So we have the internet now. We needed strong encryption to protect our data.

We have an amazing encryption nowadays. We needed a sound monetary system that's fair and predictable and sound. And we have Bitcoin now. We needed to be able to transact that money at lightning speed. So we made the lightning network. we needed to move that money privately and make sure that our holdings would be private. Well, we have coin joins and wasabi wallet with this. Now, I think a new frontier comes up with reliable, authenticated, censorship-resistant and distributed communications.

And we have this with Noster. I know you can publish basically anything to the world knowing that it will be there and people can download and verify the authenticity. And we have the freedom of developers to build new interfaces on how to create and display this data and how people can interact with each other. This is a beautiful public comments that we've built, where coordination will thrive to the next level.

What was missing in the stack was a reliable and scalable and purpose-built encryption scheme, such that we could coordinate and communicate privately in a way that only a group of people whom we choose actually can read and analyze the messages that we're sending. And since the early days of Noster, we've made a couple attempts, and none of them were really great.

They all had some trade-offs and even like critical security bugs implemented. But I think by now we really have found a protocol that is addressing all of the critical needs that we would have for a private experience of the Nostra network. And that's the Marmot protocol. Marmot, like the animal, you know, a cute little mountain animal that stands on two feet and talks loudly to his neighbors constantly, quite communicative. And they speak ciphertext, right? we can't understand them. So this is what the protocol is about.

It's a collection of three protocols and bringing them all together to an evil, scalable group messaging on Noster. For one, of course, we use Noster. So these are JSON, text signed and structured. And we depend on a couple nips for how the system functions. Specifically, you can create your own private public key. public key. So you don't need a phone number to use this chat system. We simply use Noster as the identity layer, quite a genius thing, actually, that users now self-identify what their identity is. This self-authorship is quite powerful concept, and so we'll use that fully. And of course,

we can use the existing Noster relays to transmit text from one user to the other when they're not online at the same time, which is very useful. It's a simple thing to implement, but if we duplicate it, we can have a quite resilient system. And also there is the Blossom protocol quite similar to Noster, but instead of text files, it is about any arbitrary file. So we can put images, MP3 files, videos, PDFs, whatever, can now be uploaded.

It is addressed by its hash. So we have a unique name for each. file and we can distribute this across multiple open blossom relays that store and serve this content. And finally, and that's where the juicy part comes in, is the messaging barrier security protocol. That's a new standard for creating a encrypted group with a large amount of people. So it's basically designed to be something like signal or WhatsApp, right? And an encrypted group where you can add people, remove people and send messages, such that if anyone would see the messages as they are on the server,

it's just ciphertext, nobody can read them. However, if you do know the private keys to decrypt, then you can not just read the messages, but you can actually authenticate it, meaning you know who the messages came from. And with this, we really have addressed one of the gaping, holds left in our toolbox for Freedom Tech, and that is to have encrypted private communities,

not just for group messaging. That's what the white noise application is focused on building. But importantly, it is a protocol that will be interoperable among multiple clients. So we are building toolkits for Rust and TypeScript, meaning that any Android, iOS, laptop, or web application, can use this new encryption protocol to use and send messages to friends. So just as with Noster, you just sign in with your keys and you can read messages from anyone, regardless of which client they are using, will have the same, but for messaging.

So you can have a group with different people who are using different applications. You can very easily write your own application that does your custom use case, right? maybe your church community wants to have a custom application to send messages back and forth. And in this new paradigm, this really is going to happen. So I'm bullish because we are extending the toolkit for freedom tech developers and users at a staggering pace. And not much more is needed for just a radical and quite complete free market to emerge in cyberspace. Max, I'm wondering if at the tail end of the show, if as we're kind of chatting amongst ourselves, if in the background you might do me a favor and aggregate maybe like a few links that we could

suggest to people to go to to check out. And so like in the maybe in the last segment, we can like, I can pull up a bunch of, pull up a bunch of pages and say we can be like, okay, what's this? Why would somebody want to check this out? Why is it important? And we can just kind of rattle them off and maybe give people a little bit of freedom-related homework. Would that be cool with you? Yeah, always good to have a list of tools and books. Both is important. Arm yourself with weapons and knowledge. Awesome. I love it. I love it. I'm going to jump to Joe here. Joe, I want you to offer any commentary threads that you want to pull on on both what Canute and what Max had to say here. Is there anything that stuck out to you that you want to add to or ask questions on?

Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, I mean, we're so lucky to have Max, aren't we? I mean, just generally. I mean, Bitcoin is a broad church, right? But without the people close to Max in that broad church, you know, the rest of us would be a lot poorer for it. And I don't mean, I don't mean monetarily. I mean, you know, in a much more, you know, holistic, holistic sense. I guess maybe there's a sort of link between Knitsam and Max's here.

is that Max has demonstrated all of this cutting edge stuff, all this cryptography, which is really close to, if not at the bleeding edge of privacy technology. But it's currently a long way from the mainstream, from the mainstream users. And to go, that's not criticism, that's just where we are right now,

because of the natural evolution of technology. And with Canute's example, a lot of the population is just the 90-year-old guy who doesn't want to be free. And so, you know, we have a big gap to fill, really. You know, there are people who are digging with a little spoon to get out and do the work, but they're very much in the minority.

and so that bridge is only going to be built gradually through time. It takes time, it takes iteration and UX improvements and accessibility and all of these things. You know, we're not talking six months here. We're talking years, if not, if not decades. But it links to what I was hoping to share with everyone about why, you know, I'm so bullish right now. If we can, before we go to your reason for being bullish, what I want to do is take a quick little breather and just do a quick little one-minute break

and then come back to you. If that's cool with you. First off, I do want to say to everybody that's joining us, first of all, everybody that's joined in throughout the show, thank you guys for being here. If you have comments, questions, whatever, drop them in the chat. We love to see them.

and if something's relevant to what's being talked about, then I'll bring it up to our guests here. Also, make sure you check out all these gentlemen. They're listed in the show notes down below so you can see what they're up to. And make sure you also stick around towards the end because Max just rattled off a million incredible freedom tools that you're going to want to check out. And so I'll make sure I'll get some of them up on my screen here so we can give you guys some things to dive into so that you can not just, come and be hunky dory having fun with us and chat about how great bitcoin freedom tech is but actually start to use it because if you're not using it you're not getting the benefit of it if you

don't know the tools how can you improve your life so make sure we're doing that we're going to give a quick little shout out to our sponsors we'll be back in about a minute here and I'll also say at the very end of the show I've got a learn page full of tutorial videos that can help you on your way too. So make sure you stick around for that and I'll drop a link for you. So with that, we'll be back in about a minute. Stay tuned. We're going to find out why Joe is so damn bullish. He's, he's chomping at the bit to get it out. So we'll see you guys in a second. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the US. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over

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where you hold a key, and the platform allows for excellent hardware like the cold card mark four and the queue. You have access to flexible conditions, the best rates, and institutional grade liquidity. If you're looking to make use of your capital, don't sell your Bitcoin, borrow against it. You can head over to debify.com to check them out, or simply scan the QR code on the screen. All right, we are back in. And Joe, I'm going to give the floor to you. We are going to be finding out just what has you so excited.

So I hand it to you, Joe. Why are you bullish? Well, I'm bullish because of Bitcoiners. You know, it's been a long year for me personally, you know, in a good way because I've just been, I've been trying to do a lot. And, you know, it takes, it takes its toll. you know because you you don't get a lot of downtime but then I went to Lugano and I know Knewa and Max were both there as well and it's the first time I've been in Lugano and it Lagart and this is Plan B conference and it was amazing outside I mean Lugano is like a

fairy tale destination anyway it is the most beautiful place and they accept Bitcoin everywhere it is it is like it's like heaven on it but just being being there and being around Bitcoiners is just so invigorating and reinvigorating after a long year. Because, you know, when we're talking about that bridge between the 90-year-old in Kut, in Kut's story and where everyone needs to be with what Max is building, is that that bridge is a big one we need to build. but I am super bullish because we've got an army of people to build it because every conversation you have with Bitcoin is a high quality conversation. Like a Bitcoin at this stage is a serious filter

because for people to have ended up at a Bitcoin conference, they've had to put the work in, they've had to critically assess something. They've had to admit to themselves they were wrong about where they started. And so it's low ego, low ego, high quality conversations. And it also tends to overlap significantly with incredibly productive people and motivated people. And those are the people who build the bridge. And so, you know, I was lucky enough to give you.

a presentation at Ligano, what's the problem live on the stage? And, you know, I've done that a few times now. And often when you're doing podcasts or you're recording stuff, you're not, you're not getting the feedback, right? Because you're just firing it into the ether, hoping, you know, it helps somebody at some point. But I was just blown away by the number of conversations I had with people who were they where they are clearly chomping at the bit to try and help as many people as possible in their own lives right because they want them to have that that penny drop moment with bitcoin right and so i had one conversation oh yeah and the um this gentleman said oh i love the video thank you for making the video i've orange filled 15 members of my own family

with this video. And I was like, this is amazing. This is absolutely amazing. And, you know, there's multiple stories like this. But when you have a, we have the most motivated segment of the population anywhere in the world. We are ever growing in number, ever wealthier and incredibly active. And on the whole low ego. And that's an incredible set of combinations to be able to drive meaningful change over time.

And once somebody has that penny drop moment, they never go back. And so that bridge is getting built and it's going to accelerate. It's going to get built at an ever accelerating rate. And it's like getting, you know, a brand new lease of life coming back from Lagan. it's like, yeah, you're even more motivated than you were. You're absolutely naked. Your social battery is drained because there's not many of us who are extroverts in this face. But you're incredibly motivated and positive for the future.

And so, yeah, I haven't stopped smiling or working really since I got home to carry on pushing forward. So that's why I'm so bullish. That's awesome. I heard a lot of good things about the event this year in Lugano. I couldn't make it over. I did go last year. Beautiful spot. Really cool. You pull up the map of places that you can actually go and spend Bitcoin. And they are numerous in Lagano, which is, which is wonderful. I think I'd love to see more of that around the globe, these little pockets of Bitcoiners aggregating in places and creating more of us. And we do seem to be growing in numbers,

which, you know, Bitcoin go up, Bitcoiners go up, freedom go up. You know, those are good trends to see. And so, I mean, was there anything that you,

that you got to take in conversationally or if you went to a talk or just something that you saw there, are there certain things that you really honed in on that you're like, wow, this is making a difference or wow, this is a cool project or team or, you know, tool, whatever. I mean, it's just so much innovation.

And you've already felt it yourself. It's hard to stay on top of everything that is happening, which is a great, which is a great sign. But I think a lot of it is just reinforcing the, not the basic. Basics is the wrong word. It's like reinforcing the foundations and the reasons why and better arming everybody with their ability to maximize their ability to make a difference in building the bridge. Whatever, whatever that may be,

because it is a broad, it is a broad church. And I would say, you know, a large proportion of us definitely need Max's links, right? And then spend a bunch of time trying to get up to speed with how that works, why it's, you know, we probably don't need to know the micro detail, right, but become more and more familiar with it and take proactive steps. Like as Bitcoin is just generally,

we live very deliberately. I thought it was just downloading an app. Well, all right, maybe it is. Maybe I'm making it more complicated than it really is. If so, then hats off to hats off to max. It's just downloading the app. but it's you know for many we are not many are not super technical and so the way that they make a difference is by communicating with people and trying to get them to the to the starting line so you know when

you have sessions like save dean where he's talking about you know the some of the foundational stuff about time preference and these things it's like helping arm people we've been able to communicate to the everyday people in their life because for them it's not about necessarily the privacy or the erosion of privacy because there are things that they have to go through first

before that becomes their top priority and so it's like how do we get as many people down the funnel as possible and yeah I think the confidence was super broad in content and catered for a lot of the church. And so I keep using churches. It's like a religious thing.

But you know, you know what I mean. So yeah, great, great confidence and conference and, you know, hats off to the organizers. Max, your organization. What I really enjoyed about this conference is that I expected it to be quite full of suits, you know, organized by Tether in Lugano, must be a bunch of bankers. And, you know, there were suits. But there was a quite surprising amount of, of, cyphepunk and freedom tech oriented presentations and topics and conversations, which was really encouraging.

And I guess one thing worth noting is the main net launch of Arcade. Arcade is a new second layer technology, a little bit like a roll-up native to Bitcoin's design. And this basically means that we get a bunch of rather fast and free transactions. And we can do cool stuff with this. the scriptability and programmability has been extended quite a lot and it's interoperable with lightning. And we can do cool ideas now. Back in the days, we had the idea of the cluster fuck wallet. The cluster fuck wallet is a wallet that gives you privacy by simply nonstop doing random shit.

At random times, it makes transactions with random amount of inputs, sending random amounts to random addresses. you know, some of yours, some are the payments you want to make. And if just a small amount of users are doing this, then it actually gives great cover traffic for everyone else, just because the blockchain starts to look really random. And so there was always a cool idea, but the downside is, well, Bitcoin doesn't scale and making all these transactions and keeping them forever is going to be a downside. And expensive, right?

Miners will want to be paid to include these transactions. So the lack of scalability on Bitcoin means that we were limited in the extent of privacy technologies that we could deploy. But now with things like Lightning and especially Arcade, as these restraints are being removed, well, welcome the next generation of privacy tech. The arcade thing is pretty cool. So anybody, again, unfamiliar with Arc and in particular, of those that may be new to Bitcoin, and you've heard the old trope, Bitcoin is slow and expensive. There's so many interesting things that are coming out.

And actually with ARC being a lair-to interoperable with lightning and everything, in Riga at the Baltic County Badger conference, unbeknownst to anybody there, all of their back-end infrastructure with BTC pay server, so all of the merchants there, all of the food trucks, everything that we're accepting lightning payments, we're actually using ARC. And so every person that paid with lightning was interoperable with their payment system. And in the back, it was ARC as their layer two. So, like, this is kind of the trajectory of where things are going, where it's like all of these different types of wallets that allow different types of scaling, different types of privacy guarantees, and all of these different options out there are becoming, much like our existing financial. infrastructure in that you go to up to a point of sale terminal with a regular business.

And quite often it's just like you tap whatever the hell card you're using. Or like, you know, you just pay however you're going to pay. And then it just works for the merchant. We're getting that with Bitcoin now, but you're also getting self-sovereignty at the same time. And that's pretty awesome. I'm pretty excited about it. So I'm glad you brought that up, Mark, Max, there. Yeah. Canute, I know that you were paying. Sorry, go ahead, Joe.

I was just going to say, just building on that, just paying, paying, being in an environment where everyone's paying a Bitcoin for everything is just like an amazing experience as well. Right. Because some people have the luxury or the fortune of being more communities where you maybe have like the circular going on or you have other Bitcoin is nearby. But for many, it's like a very rare opportunity to buy a coffee or buy a beer or buy, you know, some merch in using Lightning. Using Lightning is this just magical. And, you know, as part of living deliberately for all of us, you know, we should be spending as much as often as we can. Sats in the hands of people who need to have it. Like, we need to get Bitcoin into the pockets of as many different people around the world as possible. And just having somebody near you and being able to show them a transaction on Bitcoin is like this little wow moment.

Because to your point, it's not slow and expensive. It's instant and cheap, right? With lightning and all these additional bolt on. So it's, yeah, another highlight for me of the confidence. Funny enough, you're talking about day-to-day ability to be able to spend Bitcoin. Shortly before the show, I went and got a fresh haircut and my barber. Without me pressuring whatsoever, he knew I was like the Bitcoin guy. He ended up coming and visiting our local market that we've been running for a year

and a half now. And he's curious. but I'd say a few months back, he was like, hey, you know, if you want to pay in Bitcoin, I would, I'd be more than happy to do that. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, somebody's asking me to pay in Bitcoin. Yeah, 100%. So now whenever I go to see my barber, I'm paying in Bitcoin. And he's stoked about it.

And so I love, I love seeing stuff like that. Like I again, you know, Knew, you were saying I've been living on a Bitcoin standard. And, you know, some of that is jumping through hoops and using services to make it to make it work. But, you know, others of that are finding like-minded people that understand the value, not just of Bitcoin as an asset, but from the freedom perspective of it. And those are the types of people that we're aggregating for our local market. Farmers, these kind of like salt of the earth people that like grow things. from the ground and cattle ranchers and stuff like this and tradesmen that can actually build things with their hands.

You know, my supple, you know, mobile friendly hands are not as capable of, you know, building a house or something, but I can teach them how to use sound money. So hopefully that's a fair exchange. Nonetheless, super bullish on quality people that can build and offer value to others. accepting Bitcoin. I think those are the people we should support. On that note, I'm reading a comment here in the comment section, until everything is priced and can be purchased in Bitcoin, we are still under the thumb of the existing Fiat system.

What people need to get here is that this starts with you and me, accepting Bitcoin for our goods and services. We are the ones that this is not going to happen top down. Like, we have to accept Bitcoin for goods and services. That's how this starts. And if you're early to that game, you're an absolute winner. You will have more sets than you did last year, which is just, it's going to be impossible at some point to have that. So this is your chance. Like start accepting Bitcoin for goods and services. It's easy. It's super simple. So, and disobey if you have to. That's my message. I love that. Yeah. I mean, if not you, then who? Right. Exactly. So it's, you know, the message of until until other people start pricing and accepting Bitcoin, if you're going to wait for that to happen, it's never going to happen. But if it, like you said, Knoot, if it starts with you, if you say, if you go to other Bitcoiners and say, hey, I'm doing something of value or I believe I'm doing something of value, this is my skill set. This is my product. This is a,

my service, whatever it is, and I'm accepting Bitcoin. And not just, don't just like slap a window on this, on, on a slap a sticker on the window and be done with it. But like, go and interact with Bitcoiners and say, hey, like if you ever need this, come. It takes, you know, in, in these early phases, yeah, it takes some elbow grease. But I think it's worth that effort because you're building the foundation of a new world by doing that. Yeah, and also you get to experience the strange feeling of the first million sets is the hardest. And in Fiat, like the, or is the easiest, I mean, in Fiat, the saying is the first million dollars is the hardest.

And every subsequent million is easier. And if in Bitcoin is the complete opposite, the first million sets you acquire is, it's the easiest one to acquire. increasingly harder. I know, like, I've been selling books for a couple of years now at these conferences for whatever reason. I'd like to get my words out there. And the funny thing is, I enjoy dips much more when I do that because I get paid more when there's a dip. And if I look back, like, I got paid like for maybe five books. The first time I did this, like, I go paid for, like, one book gave me what whatever 10 books is giving me now. in a beautiful hardcover and re-edited and stuff,

that that was just a pamphlet 10 years ago, gave me 10 times as many sets, which is just insane because, so the earlier you're into this game, the more you have to gain from it. It's just the inverse of everything, everything that's true for Fiat is true for Bitcoin. I love that.

Does anybody want to tag in any other last thoughts on this topic before we, switch gears and I pick Max's brain a little bit more on all of his incredible freedom tools that he has that he brought up. Yeah, I think it's important to ask ourselves like the why for all those topics that we discussed in this conversation. Why is there such an overarching problem? Why are people building these freedom tech tools and are having so much fun with it? And why are people who use these tools, all of a sudden experiencing such an enormous impact and improvement in their life. And why are the people so motivated to keep going? And I think the root cause of this is fundamentally

and ethical. Humans have an ignorance of the natural law principles that govern the consequences of human action. And that ultimately, you know, the answer to life, universe and everything, is don't steal. It's really as simple as that. However, when applied consistently, that leads you to some shocking conclusions. And I'd encourage everyone to really consider in which areas of life are you currently stealing from yourself or from others. Really a worthwhile question to ask, and you will see that you are. We're all flawed to some extent. sad thing is that we have systems of institutions and education and propaganda that trick everyone into constantly stealing from each other. And that is really a deep problem. However, that gives us a really simple solution. Simply stop stealing from others and life gets better for

others and for yourselves. And one of the most vicious tricks of where we're all swindled into stealing from others is by receiving and holding fiat currency. This is money that was freshly created and distributed to some initial people. And sure, those who receive the newly created money very first, they benefit the most, right, at the expense of everyone else. But the puck doesn't stop there. Those who receive this newly created money second, third and fourth, et cetera, they still benefit from all those people that received this newly created money later.

Sure, they get stolen from those that received it before. But ultimately, if you see yourself in this pyramid of theft, you're very much not at the bottom. You are getting your salary, you know, 10 hops, 100, maybe a couple thousand hops removed, right? But that's not so much in the grand scheme of things. This money travels not just in distance, but in time, right? Generations that are not even yet born will receive this newly created money that you are holding at this very moment. And which means that you're actively stealing from them. So the ultimate call to action here is just stop stealing.

And that means applied consistently in your life. Stop using fiat. It's not good for you. It's not good for society. And using freer alternatives like Bitcoin is the obvious solution. And this extends to speech and speak your mind and speak it loudly and use tools that foster your speech and ensure that it echoes in eternity. That's obviously where Noster comes in. And then coordinate securely and privately such that we can continue not only building this, freedom tech, but building all the joys that life has to offer. We need carpenters that make

beautiful boxes, because humans like boxes a lot, actually. We need great farmers to produce meat and all the other amazing professions that were mentioned in the show. Go forth and build and solve the problems of others and yourselves. And spend your time doing that rather than continuously scheming on how to best steal more from your fellow men. No, can I rant on here? Because I absolutely love this. Humans have two ways of resolving conflict over scarce resources. And one is fighting over them, fang and claw, and the other is communication. And that is the civilized way.

Everything good in this world is made by the free market. Which is humans interacting with one another voluntarily and with consent and without aggression. don't steal. It is the non-aggression principle and it is civilization. Everything else is a lie. Despite interventionism in every market everywhere on earth, despite government's printing money, despite government taxing everyone as much as they could, we turned sand into this.

A device that can do things James Bond wouldn't have dreamed of 10 years ago. We can have this call. All of this is a result of people interacting with one another voluntarily. If people knew how powerful this is, they would stop stealing instantly. Because there's no one gains from stealing, not even the thief. Like if you jump out of a plane, you must first acquire a parachute. If you steal the parachute, you're destroying the very thing that makes. made the parachute possible in the first place,

which is don't steal, the free market, right? So if you want to jump out of a plane twice, you better have a parachute. And if you want parachutes to exist, you can't steal the parachute. It's super simple. Like, if you want to jump out twice of the plane, you can't steal the parachute.

Like, it's so simple. And yet, people refuse to see it. All prices ought to be dropping forever. That's what this mean. I'm struggling to find the words. That's what this means. The vectors are all pointing in the same direction. Abundance for everyone everywhere.

And we won't even crave it because we no longer crave Lambos because we're all having beards like me and Max. I mean, Joe is about to grow one any day now, I think. And Ben, you're halfway there. And your barber cut half of it off. but he will learn. Like, it's, we're going into this stoic utopia.

Like, we just have to not fuck each other over. It's so super simple. And we do that by disobeying the people who do. It's that simple. Build the freedom tools. Don't care what the assholes tell you because they're fucking lying. Don't let them.

I love the solution is to, like what you just said there, the uh just just disobey the people that are stealing from everyone that's trying and try to make you to cut your beard i mean my mother told me yesterday to cut my beard and i i bet socrates mother told him that too like socrates go to the barber and socrates's like no i'm not going to the barber oh okay i'm renting too much i love it i love it okay max i want you uh in your brain uh if you can have a few things that you'd like me to pull up. We're going to take one quick, one minute break.

And when we come back, we're going to school some people. We're going to give them a few things to download, try, take a look at, and really give them some freedom, privacy, and financial, potentially, tools, things that they can use as Canute, so eloquently put it, to disobey the assholes that are stealing from everybody. So we'll be back in just a moment. And Max is going to drop some awesome knowledge and we'll pull up some stuff

that you guys can check out and actually take action on. See in a second. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your Bitcoin on mobile, Aqua Wallet has you covered. It's user-friendly and puts you in full control of your Bitcoin with secure cell custody.

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Click the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen to check out the Honey Badger Plan. All right. We are back in. And Max, hopefully you're still present. But we're going to chat about some tools that people can use to give themselves a little bit of a freedom vibe. So, Max, what are some of the things that you wouldn't mind? me pulling up and mentioning here. Can you hear us?

I don't know if he can hear us. Max, you got us? Max? I tell you. That's OK. Well, I'm just going to rant for a moment here. I'm going to pull. Well, in addition to the things that I mentioned in the past,

you hear me, right? I think there's just like a gigantic delay. Hold on. He'll come back in a sec. There's nothing like an app pitch after you just showed to the world that your apps don't work. That's a downside, but hey, we can get proof of time. Yeah, there you go. Okay, Max, I pulled 60% of the times every time.

Yeah, it's just because Max is behind so many layers of encryption. He's giving his federal agent a run for his money, but he's here through all that encryption to give us some tools. But Max, I pulled up white noise. white noise dot chat. Can you tell people a little bit more about white noise and what it is, who it's for? Yeah, so with white noise, our main goal is really to fix the existing Noster direct messaging. They're a bit of a mess. They can be a lot better.

We've made them really, really good. So check out white noise. I'm really excited about the next release because it finally starts to feel like an actual chat app that works. You know, this next one has notifications, which is quite a game change. And actually, we've figured a way to do notifications that don't fuck up your privacy, which most apps actually do by relying on Google Play services or Apple notification services. And so we simply keep white noise running in the background of your Android phone. And it will connect to Noster Relays and fetch messages. It's much more reliable now.

We have images support. And, you know, all of this in the next release. also translation into a couple different languages. So it's really coming together. It's still early, so have a bit of patience. But by the end of the year, it should be quite a compelling solution for groups of people to chat freely. And in addition to this, one other app worth we're talking about is Zap Store. And so this is your Noster native application downloading store.

Here, you can discover and download new applications. And interestingly, this is the only app store where you can simply publish stuff. When we first released Light Noise, Apple censored us because they weren't happy with the K-YC. Google censored us to this day, because they, I don't even know exactly why. The only app store that simply worked, that simply

published our app to people was App Store. Because you simply, in order to publish a software, you simply need to create a JSON file, put some data in there, like the name of the software and the release version and where people can download it. And you sign that and you put it on relays and you go to sleep, knowing that people can now get your app. And also we have Web of Trust.

So you can see, hey, here are my friends, people who might follow from shit posting over on Primal, And I see that this guy is also producing an app. And I know that because I have verified cryptographically that this is the same pub key that posts about developing stuff. Really, really powerful tool. And with this, for example, you can install Orbot. Orbot is a very powerful free VPN application that uses the Tor network. So you simply install it, you turn it on, and you give it access or permission to be your VPN app.

And all of your other applications will now route their internet traffic through the Tor network to wherever it needs to go. You don't have to pay for it. You can use it on as many devices as you want. The Tor network is really, really cool, right? So this is a VPN if you don't want to pay for it. It's a bit slower than most VPNs. That's because it's more private, actually, but definitely worth checking out. And it works especially good for messaging, for example.

Not so much for 4K YouTube videos, but only. them anyway. We're all just watching podcasts, you know, because that's more efficient. You can do other stuff with your time. Yeah, then, I mean, I could mention all of the sponsors that you have on the show because they're all pretty good. So what else? I mean, one interesting thing is if you actually want to spend your Bitcoin to what we said a bit earlier, go to shopinbit.com. This is a concierge agent that gets you stuff for Bitcoin. You can write them a message, you know, either on their website or via email or via Signal, hopefully soon via White Noise, and you just talk to a human. You tell him what you want.

You tell him where you want to deliver to, and he simply gets it for you, and you pay him Bitcoin for the privilege. This also means that you can get travel accommodation, travel and accommodation sorted. So flights, hotel rooms, etc. Knude can tell stories about the luxurious extra legroom that you get on seeds. So can Max. A-96, right? It was a 380, I believe, and we had the same picture. So, yeah, a really powerful service.

Another very interesting tool, maybe on the topic that we just touched a bit on, But how are we actually going to produce stuff? Right? Like that's difficult. And we need credit. We need contracts for this. Without contracts, we don't really have agreements and free markets and trade. And therefore no prices, et cetera.

So how can we express more contracts, economic contracts in cyberspace? And we can, for example, do this with bit credit, bit.cr. So this is a system built on Noster, Bitcoin and E. cash to express bills of exchange denominated in Bitcoin. Bills of exchange are peer-to-peer business-to-business credit lines, so to say. Let's say Joe is a farmer and he's producing cows. Knude is a butcher and he's producing steak and Ben wants to eat some steak, right? So first, Knoot needs to acquire the cow from Joe. But Knoot doesn't have any sats because he's poor, he's a podcaster.

And so he asked. I'm poor because I'm an author, not because I'm a podcaster. And a podcaster. Exactly. So please don't, don't kidnap the guy. He doesn't have anything. So Knut goes to Joe and says, hey, I don't have any money now, but I can pay you in three months. So here I'll give you a piece of paper that I'll sign and you can sign it too that says that in three months,

Knoot will pay whoever has this piece of paper, you know, one Bitcoin plus interest for the cow. It's a good cow, big one. And then Knoot can butcher it. You know, Ben comes along and is like, hey, I want the stake now. He gets the stake from Knoot and he finally hands over precious Satoshi's getting the circular economy finally going. And now Knood, three months later, has the money to finally pay back Joe and settle that contract that they are. read upon. But if in the meantime, Joe needs to, you know, get some hay for his cows, he can come to me, you know, a grass farmer and buy some hay. And instead of paying me in cash, he can actually pay me with this contract. So it's a transferable bearer certificate, this contract,

that can be passed on to others. But now Knut doesn't pay Joe, but he actually pays me. And yeah, this is one cool system of having or starting bootstrapping an economy out of the ashes of the collapsing fiat system is actually don't need to have money in order to start an economy. You simply need to have human ingenuity and some capital goods. But then you can produce stuff and you can initially sell it on credit until eventually you settle it later in sound money itself. Now, I did want to ask you a question in regards to you've done some work. Have you done some work with Cake Wallet? I wouldn't say much other than helping some people set it up and talking a bit about it. There is some conspiracies and backroom deals that maybe we have a cool use of marmits and the encryption on Noster inside Cake.

Let's see if that goes anywhere. Interesting. Now they do have one of the things that I will give a tip of the hat to cake for is they've definitely implemented some good Bitcoin privacy features in the wallet. Max, I was wondering if you want to just mention a little bit of what they've done privacy-wise for Bitcoin there. Yeah, privacy is hard especially on the phone because processing power is limited based on better. But what they have done is for one Tor integration, which is great. And also the ability to connect to your own node. By itself, I think the blockchain synchronization is not perfectly private,

so it does rely on a third-party server. In other words, it does not use block filters for client-side filtering. However, there is pay join support and silent payment support and coin selection support. And so all of these are really interesting. With silent payments, we have a reusable, address, meaning you no longer have to reuse addresses. So mainly usability benefit, also some kind of plausible deniability, which is great. Then pay join is a small two-party coin join, which has been around for a while and is now in its second version where it also

works asynchronously, meaning if the receiver is actually offline, he can later finalize the payment. Which is really cool. I was actually, so I did want to also give a shout out to the new bull bitcoin wallet the reason i was playing with cake just the other day was because they're one of the i think one of the only other wallets that has asynchronous pay join um and so i was doing like the scanning of the the qr's back and forth and bull also had the pay join enabled and it was just um you wouldn't even realize that you're using it like if if you if you didn't notice the little join enabled tag at the bottom. It's just you just scan and go. Which is who also has arcade support now, which is fantastic. Yes. And also here,

there are some conspiracies for using MDK to actually be a multi-sick coordinator. And if, if you want to coordinate a multi-signature and have a collaborative spending, well, it's similar to what Nunchuk is currently doing so beautifully, we can do the same with the Marmot Incryption layer, which will work perfect with the keys that we're already using. That's awesome. Max, do you have a preference for like a non-Tor VPN? So I think historic assessment is that Crypto Hippie was the best VPN that the king who died and has not been succeeded properly.

Crypto hippie was outrageously amazing, run by two legendary cyphabunks, Paul Rosenberg, the author of Lodging of Wayfaring Men, and Smuggler, the author of The Second Realm, both two books that must be read. And anyhow, nowadays there are two good alternatives, I would say. Nowadays, there's actually a couple more. But so there used to be Mulvart, very good, long-lasting company, profitable, auto Sweden runs the VPN such that it is exclusively in RAM. The servers, the hardware that they have,

do not have a hard drive disk, meaning as soon as they lose power, all storage is gone, which is great, no logs. They also allow a two-hop VPN, meaning your entry into the internet is to, let's say, Sweden, and then your exit is through, I don't know, Miami. And this adds some additional protection to your traffic. A second noteworthy mention is IVPN.

They also have been accepting Bitcoin via BTC pay for a long time, probably close to a decade, actually, at this point. So they were Bitcoin maxi since day one. Additional noteworthy mention is the NIM NIM app. This is a mix network. I think NYM.XYZ or something like this. A mixnet is even better than an uninvolved network as Tor. It adds some timing delays between relays.

And with this, you can have a five-hop VPN, so to say, running on your phone. It is a paid service. You can pay or acquire tickets with Bitcoin over Lightning as well. these are some of the good VPN solutions out there. Nice. I can't recommend Mulvard enough. Mulvaad is actually the Swedish word for mole, and they've been around,

they're from Gothenburg, Sweden, where I used to live. And I'm super proud of them. They've been accepting Bitcoin for nearly decade too. So like, yeah, super-based company. Yeah, I enjoy them as well. I mean, there's a whole bunch in there. that people can be checking out. If Max, what do you say?

If somebody's big into censorship resistance in terms of online speech and they want to dive into the realm of Noster, where could they be starting with that? A good place to start is primal, right? This is a quite user-friendly application on any platform. The team has been working diligently on making the UX quite good, and it has good improvements. So check out Primal, that is always a good one.

But it's really cool to see that Noster is more than just one application. Go to Noster.net, I think, and you will see a list of awesome Noster applications on a bunch of different platforms or ideas. So, yeah, it really is quite, yeah, Yaki Hone is one worth noting. quite powerful. And it has a, for example, a very good Noster wallet connect solution. So this is where you have a Lightning Network wallet running on a server somewhere remotely, and your phone connects to this Lightning node via the Nostra network in a direct message,

saying that, hey, can you please pay this invoice? And if the phone has been authorized in the past, then the payment gets made. Corical Social is also worth noting a great community. community-based Noster client, Flotilla as well. We are really starting to slowly get into the community organization and coordination tools, which is great. Then marketplaces, that was fun fact. The original idea and name of Noster was Diagon Alley, the hidden marketplace for wizards.

And so marketplaces have been. in Nostor since they won and are now in like the fourth generation and we have become exceedingly efficient at it. So shopster dot death or something, plebeian market, mostro and I'm probably forgetting a couple other market place clients where you can publish your products such that others can see them and see that what your friends are selling and then you simply send them a Nostra direct message and zap them some money and you'll get your package received wherever it needs to be or just a service performed digitally. Yeah, marketplaces have figured there's one dedicated for raw milk.

I guess raw milk. Market or something that's the shopster guys doing a great go-to-market strategy. you know raw milk is illegal where I live everything's illegal where you live yeah that's true it's not for you it's for the cats yeah 10 gallons please yeah 100% well that's this is awesome I think I think again

you know people that are watching this that are curious about these things scrub back through the video take a peek and and my challenge to you guys that are watching is pick one thing in here that you're interested in and go, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to check out that one thing. I'm going to give it a download. I'm going to play with it. It might be one of the VPN solutions. It might be some of the Noster stuff. It might be the shopping bit. It might be or bought. It might be

a variety of different things. But pick something that you haven't played around with yet and just get curious and just play around with it tonight and just see what's up. See how far you can get. And let me know in the comments afterwards, how to go? What? What did you find? What did you find easy? What was cool? And what were the challenges? I love to hear it. And I can relay those things to, you know, it's always good reaching out to the people building these things to help them as they continue on their journey and make freedom technology accessible to all. So, you know, give them your feedback too. So gentlemen, I'm going to do a quick roundhouse here and just get you guys to, let people know where to find you, what you're up to, and anything that you want to point them towards that you think could be beneficial for them. So, Joe, I'll start with you. First off, thank you for being here, man. It's really good to see you. And I hope to see you in person at some point soon in the future. But where can people find you? What do you want them to check out?

Well, really, I mean, what I want is everyone in the world to understand what the problem is. that's that's really it. And so I spend the vast majority of my time just trying to talk to people and explain to them wherever they are what the problem is and what the solution is. Because no one can appreciate any solution unless you understand what the problem is.

And so I've been amazed by the level of support from Bitcoiners all around the world. And even today we dropped Hungarian, a Hungarian version of this. And so that takes us up to the mid-30s in the number of languages that this has been translated into both the full slides, the speaker notes and the transcript by Bitcoin of volunteers around the world. And you can find them all at what's the problem.org. So if you go there, you can see the video. You can share it with anybody in your life that needs to understand why you're so passionate about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin. Send it to everybody. Anyone who complains about anything in their life, it goes back to the money. And so send the link, get into watch what's the problem. And if you go all the way to the top, Ben, at the material section right at the top, this points to the old web. It's being a new browser, I suspect. Oh, yeah, it did. Sorry, my bad. I didn't realize. Yeah, no worries. This is, what's the problem.org is the handle it should always have had. Given I made it and didn't really expect many people to watch it, I just did it as Sats versus Fear. And so this is where all the materials live, but you can navigate there. And if you scroll down, you see them all here.

And some of them have fully remade videos in the languages, but they all have the slide decks. So wherever you are in the world, you can take these things and present the exact same. same thing to your local community if a video doesn't make sense. Amazing. And so, you know, we're going to carry on doing this until everyone on the planet has seen this thing. And then once you've seen it, you can't see it again and we can make a big step forward. So please just help me distribute it as far and wide as possible.

Love it. So what's the problem.org? Yeah. It's a really good video. Yeah. 100%. Canute, I'm going to jump to you. Again, thanks for being here.

Good to have you on. Thanks for being a trooper, staying up late. Where can people find you? What do you want them to check out? I'll start with Bitcoinfinity.com, which is our little store, where you can find all of my books and a couple of other books too from other Bitcoiners. And you can pay in sets if you want to.

right now we're doing uh there's all of my books have been redesigned and re-edited uh there they are on top there if you scroll down you can see we have also larry lepard's book uh sub bunny's book dashby's book and the first edition of the bitcoin times there and some merch uh right now we're doing uh if you go to geyser dot fund slash projects slash infinity that's uh a tricky address, I know. We're right now doing the Bitcoin Infinity Academy, and we're on the second book, this one, called Bitcoin Independence Reimagined.

So Luke and I, my podcast co-host and producer and also co-author of Bitcoin, The Inverse of Clown World, we read a chapter from each and every one of my book once a week and discuss the ideas, paragraph by paragraph so we discussed the ideas in that in in that book and if you want to support that and if you yeah there's a lot of perks you can join the live recordings and you can we do monthly meetings and stuff with this uh so that is one thing the other thing is the bitcoin infinity

show uh so we do a weekly pod where we interview interesting bitcoinsers such as you three gentlemen you've all been on my show at some point. The latest one there is with Andre from Madeira and what's going on in Madeira. Yeah, there's a show. That's the other thing I do. Like right now I'm on a bit of a conferencing circuit and I have been for a while.

Next month I'm going to San Salvador for Bitcoin Historical and adopting Bitcoin, which are going to be great. After that, the plan is to go back. to Logano in December to record an entire course for the Praxiology book. So a course on Praxiology that will be published on Plan B. Plan B.network, I could mention them to their lead sponsor for all this stuff. They're based at Logano, but they're worldwide.

And yeah, it's a fantastic resource for finding good Bitcoin. Austrian economics education around the world. Awesome. Love it. Yes. Other than that, yeah, my Twitter handle is here on screen. So you can find it there.

I shitpost a lot. I enjoy it. I still think it's not a crime, but I try to shit post more and more on Noster too. Noster is, you mentioned cluster fuck before Max. I described Noster as the most beautiful cluster fuck the internet has to offer.

It's usability, maybe so and so, but it's still like the most fantastic tool for speaking your mind that we have. And an escape hatch for people who don't want to be told what to do. But still, yeah, my main platform is X. I have fun there. Awesome. I'm a slow learner in certain aspects. Max, I'm going to toss it to you as well.

And again, where can people find you? What do you want to point them towards? Go ahead. You can probably find me in the sauna. That's most likely. On Towardsliberty.com, Max, at Towardsliberty.com, you can find my N-Pub and answer me, Sats, mail, and notes. Then I guess it's always good to leave it off on a couple book recommendations.

Yeah. In addition to those that I mentioned already, crypto economics by Eric Waskio, best book on Bitcoin economics by far. We have Building Noster, new release by Hoddlebot, about more of the technical building side of Nostr, really a fascinating read.

Recently, I reread Crypto Sovereignty by Eric Kaysen, and that is another gem that is quite good. The Bushido of Bitcoin by Svetrikan, also a tone worth reading. And what would there should be a couple Austrian economics books in there as well. So let's say man economy and state. That's a big one. But if you want to read anything about economics, that's the one book to read them all.

Against intellectual property, Stefan Kinsella, if you want to know why free software is the only reasonable choice for the realm of ideas, then that's the book to go to. And do we have a crowning and achievement? The End of All War. No, the end of all evil. Yes, the end of all evil. I forgot the name of the author. Great book on ethics. Worth a read. Is it by Jeremy Locke?

Is that the one? Yes, exactly. This one here. Don't forget your own book, Max. Oh, yes. The Praxiology of Privacy. Yeah. Trying to bridge the Austrian economics and cyphepunk tradition a bit.

A little work in progress. No, I shouldn't say work in progress. I did some work and now I abandoned it for a while until I may do some work on it again with some of the feedback that I got so far and in the future. So if you like it to read, go to towardsliberty.com slash pop, the op. And yeah, you can get the sources of the book. And I guess final shout out to check out white noise. Yeah. Give it a whirl.

let us know how to make it better and have patience until all the bugs are sorted out two weeks. I love it. If you want to add secure messaging to your own application, check out the Marmot Def Kit, MDK.org or something like this, MDK.dev. And that will hopefully be an easy tool for you to add secure messaging into any application. We have Rust libraries and TypeScript libraries, so we should somehow get it to work. If you need something else, let us know.

We'll make it work. There's a monthly Marmot developer call or community call. Every first Wednesday of the month or something like that, I don't know. Come to that. Demo us your cool apps. It would be cool to see you. And I guess, sorry to all the projects that I'm working on that I forgot to shill. It's hard to keep track.

I love it. Well, I appreciate all of it and I appreciate you guys coming, chatting with me this evening. A really fun conversation here. And to everybody watching again, if you found the conversation valuable, please do drop a like on the video. Please do follow these gentlemen and all the stuff that they are working on. And one last thing I'll say is, you know, taking action is super important. It's fun to have these conversations to be able to celebrate big. Bitcoin and everything, but if you're coming in from the perspective of somebody that, you know, maybe has an ETF or bought micro strategy and you're just learning about the actual benefits of Bitcoin, it's very important that you take those additional steps and you actually utilize in your

day-to-day life and then discover the tangential technologies that can just further your personal sovereignty even more. If you're curious about learning the tools and needs, step-by-step tutorials. I'll drop this over on the side here. I have a Bitcoiner Zero to Hero page that has step-by-step tutorials going from beginning to intermediate to an advanced. And you can just click through and start from video one and just kind of begin on your journey. There's playlist for deeper dives at the bottom. And if you need one-on-one help, then there's my team over at Bitcoin Mentor as well. I always play a little snippet at the very end of the show, again, to point you into that resource, which hopefully can help a lot.

But either way, gentlemen, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you spending it here with me. And thank you guys so much for getting bullish with me on a Wednesday. Have a great evening, you guys. Right back at you, man. It's hard to contain the bullishness. Always, always. Have a good one, guys.

I'll see you soon. But, yeah. Terio. Hey, you. Yes, you watching the Bitcoin price movements. the latest exciting news. It's awesome to stay informed, but the real power of Bitcoin comes from taking control. Don't just watch, take action.

Head over to btcsessions.ca slash learn for free step-by-step tutorials that guide you through every major skill you need to know, plus full video playlist for deeper dives on any topic you like. And if you're ready for the ultimate fast track, scroll to the bottom and check out Bitcoin Mentor.io for premium one-on-one experience with my team of Bitcoin experts to ensure you get it right the first time. Don't wait, secure your Bitcoin future today. Hit the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen.