BTC Sessions - Russia JUST Declared Crypto War on $37 Trillion U.S Global Reset | Marko, Prof St Onge, Erik Cason

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Russia may have just fired the first shot in a global crypto war—openly challenging the U.S. and its $37 trillion global reset agenda. Marko, Prof St Onge, and Erik Cason break down what this means for Bitcoin, geopolitics, and the financial system as we know it.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/profstongehttps://x.com/ErikcasonMarko on YT: @WhiteBoardFinanceFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCp#btc #bitcoin #crypto

News from Russia just dropped regarding their handling of Bitcoin and other digital assets in international settlements. And it is a shot across the bow of the global dollar system. Moscow just signaled that it's ready to use Bitcoin and other digital currencies for cross-border trade while tightening control at home. This move directly targets U.S. sanctions and could reshape how nations settle value on the world stage. So today on Why Are We Bullish, we've got an awesome panel to talk about this and much, much more. We have Peter St. Ange, American Economist, making daily videos on economics and freedom. Eric Kaysen, author of Crypto Sovereignty, currently building the sovereign self-custy AI, many different self-hosted things with Vora. And we'll hear more about that in a bit.

And of course, we've got Marco, host of Whiteboard Finance on YouTube. So what do our guests have to say about this situation? What does it mean for global trade, financial sovereignty? Is this the beginning of a new monetary front, a $37 trillion reset, or is this political theater from a sanctioned state? So we're going to find out. So stick around, drop a like on the video, and stay tuned. It's going to be an awesome show.

I'm Ben with the BTC sessions, and this is your daily session. I want to welcome to the stage. Marco, Eric Kaysen, and Peter Saint-Aung. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you joining me to get bullish on a Wednesday. And yeah, I want to see it a little bit of a chat to begin with. And then we're going to find out why each of you are currently bullish, what you're currently excited about in and around Bitcoin.

But before we dive into it, I'm kind of curious your thoughts on this Russia thing that came out. I'm going to share an article here. And this is, maybe I'll put us off to the side here. So Moscow Times, there's a number of other articles here. Russia moves to tighten control over cryptocurrency market while legalizing cross-border payments. So they're preparing sweeping new regulations for the country's cryptocurrency market with plans to legalize cross-border transactions while sharply tightening penalties for other crypto operations. This area must receive proper legislative regulation so we can restore order to the sector. This is finance minister Anton.

I'm not going to try the last name here. Now, it's already being used to pay for imports and move foreign currency abroad. And the financial ministry has reached an agreement with the central bank to bring order to the market through stronger regulatory oversight. Now, it does also while allowing them to do cross-border, which is obviously a direct response to being kicked off Swift, they're experimenting, they're trying new things. However, it is a little case of they're trying to have their cake and eat it too because it says the framework also includes tools to monitor transactions linked to, quote, corruption, terrorism, extremism, and drug trafficking. Now, this is interesting when it comes to terrorism. I actually host a quarterly webinar with a girl named Anna Chekhovich, and she is Russian. And we basically teach political dissidents how to use Bitcoin to fund their operations in places where they get their bank account shutdown.

So when she was within Russia, she was actively working against. against Putin. And in that instance, the anti-corruption foundation that she was working with, at one point, she was in charge of financials, checked the bank account. And they had gone in and not only removed all their money, but put them so negative in balance that it was like negative a trillion rubles in the bank account. Like it was lappable what it was. And so anyways, she's now no longer in Russia. And she's actually designated as a terrorist. in Russia. So there's certain, like if there's a country that is friendly with Russia, she cannot go there. So besides the point, Russia is clearly trying to get the advantages of Bitcoin without

giving those same advantages to individuals. But of course, that's not exactly how Bitcoin works. It's kind of a level playing field for all if you use the tools properly. So my general question to you guys is, are stories like this leading us? Is this kind of the currency wars that have been talked about for years here? Is this a shift in that narrative? Is this a response to, as I said, being kicked off swift? And does it become more predominant? How are you viewing this?

So whoever wants to dive in first? Yeah, so I'll be the first one to say that my wife is actually Ukrainian and my ethnicity is Serbian. So I kind of follow some of this stuff, not so much specifically with what we're talking about right now. But I will say that the U.S. dollar for a long time now, especially in the East, has somewhat been weaponized. So I think that with Russia being kicked off the swift banking system, I think they're looking for almost like an exit ramp as well. So they've been allies with China for a while now. Same thing with all the other countries that maybe looked at as like dissidents or less popular like Belarus with Lukashenko and potentially India and the other brick countries. But the fact is, is that whether we're talking about the $37 trillion in debt that we're trying to get rid of is the fact that the brick countries will have to one day actually work together.

And that's the thing. I don't know if they trust each other enough to do that. And that's why I still think that U.S. dollar dominance is here to stay for a little bit. I don't know if that's going to happen in the next 10 years, 30 years or 50 years, but the thing that people need to realize is that all these Brit countries, if you look at Modi from India, he's in his 70s. Lukashenko was in his 70s. Putin's in his 70s. A lot of these people, they may not be around for a long time.

Xi Jinping, he's in his 70s. So whether this has to do with the United States debt or with Russia claiming that's what we're trying to do, I think that eventually nation states that want to get out of that U.S. dollar dominance are going to have to adopt something. And I think that thing right now is either gold or Bitcoin. And that's just what I've been seeing over the past, you know, 10, 15 years or so. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

They, you know, these countries are trying to get out of the dollar system. And fundamentally, so initially I was concerned about Bricks. concerned or excited, I thought it might amount to something because China and Russia had both been talking for a long time about having some kind of gold-back currency. And that felt to me like that could be a real threat to the dollar. It would obviously be far more attractive. You know, the only reason why that doesn't happen today is because you don't have the transaction volume. So you have much, much lower transaction costs associated with the dollar. So if, If Bricks could get together and it could actually put significant amounts onto a gold-backed currency,

then that could sort of leapfrog it to the point where you have low enough transaction costs, that combining that with the fact that your balances aren't losing value, or at least you're not losing it as quickly because they're in gold, that could be a killer app against the dollar. This past year, Bricks has, I think, morphed into now they're looking at a currency basket. that to me turns into an absolute joke, rubbish, next. You know, India, Brazil, Russia, these are all complete basket cases in terms of inflation, in terms of currency debasement, in terms of rule of law in their financial system.

You know, China is pretty good on inflation, but it's even worse than everything else. The yuan doesn't even freely trade overseas. It's just, it's like you took all of the, you know, guys strung out on fentanyl and got them together and said, yeah, this is my new army. It's just pathetic. So I think it's sort of shoehorning this into the currency war's narrative. I personally think that Bricks, as it stands today, is an absolute joke. It's a bunch of drowning men who figured that if they all hold onto each other, you know, they'll save each other when actually they're just going to drown faster.

I think what's happening here is more sort of the classic Bitcoin meme, Bitcoin fixes this. You know, the running joke is that Bitcoiners wheel that out whenever anything happens. It has a global warming, Bitcoin fixes this. And I think that that's really what's happening here. And, you know, when you look at when Bitcoin first came out, it was a tool against bank bailouts. And then it was a tool against inflation. And then it was a tool to save Canadian truckers from a despotic regime. And now it's international sanctions, right?

So I think sort of the big takeaway here is that currency is immensely powerful. It touches on a lot of different things, a lot of them having to do with power, a lot of them having to do with just wealth. And in this case, you know, Russia is clearly trying to get out from under the sanctions. They've been trying to build up their own versions of, you know, there's a Swift in China, CIPS is another one in Russia. They've been trying to build those up. Those are so pretty anemic. I think this is part of it. The good news, I think, what makes it bullet.

for Bitcoin is that there's a lot of countries that have issues with the United States. And if those countries are forced into crypto, you know, crypto itself sucks, but it's kind of like if there's some factor that's pushing countries into a commodity money, yes, some of them are going to start out with wheat or steel, but they're all going to end up in gold. So similarly, even if these countries are starting out with Dogecoin, okay, fine, but they're going to end up on a long enough timeline on Bitcoin. So for that reason, I think it's structurally bullish for Bitcoin. I don't think this is a big move in the currency wars.

Eric, I'll talk to you. Yeah, like Peter pointed out that, you know, like everything's good for Bitcoin. And this is sort of ironic because with Brits, Bricks being the shit show that it is. Like it's a bunch of the criminal class getting together, try to figure out, like, how are we not going to be criminals against each other? And then like, it turns out that, like, the only way that we can do that is like having this, fixed currency that we have an ability to actually exchange in a meaningful way that like I can't just rip you off. And the problem with gold is, is I can definitely screw you over if you're going to try to custody your gold with me or me with you. And Bitcoin like fixes this in a pretty

radical way. And same thing with like now that you have these sort of regimes fighting about like what's the standard we're going to go to, even if they go to some shit coin like doge coin or, you know, whatever Ethereum based garbage that they want to have, now they've got. into this system and they go, you know, like it turns out that like, you know, Modi coin or like Putin bucks or whatever the hell they kind of end up with really sucks. They're going to at least get like, oh, like it turns out this Bitcoin thing's like pretty good. And we can like secure it in such a way that we can do cross-border payments meaningfully. And I think the funniest thing is is that with what Russia just did, like there's a very clear signal internationally that like there's a powerful

tool for cross-border payments that we can use in a system that's hostile. to us. But like, don't, don't look at this citizens. Like, it's bad news and we need to establish control. And, you know, like, if you've played this game with us before, like, this Mary go around is pretty fun, but like it's a little overplayed of that, like, this is what the government does when it wants to lock down control. It's, uh, we need to reestablish order. This is about terrorism and kiddie porn and other terrible things that we can't have in the world. So please give us power and we'll make sure that you don't have it. So I just think it's really ironic that they're just signaling their own populace that like, hey, this is a really

powerful tool that we need to extricate ourselves from the circumstances, but you guys don't need it. So don't look at it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I'll echo the, again, that having their cake and eating it too is not going to pan out well for them. Even again, like with Anna and the Anti-Corruption foundation, for the longest time, they just had a singular Bitcoin address as their donation address and you know bad for privacy there's implications what they've learned since then but the fact of the matter remains that for for a little while they were like i mean they sure they can see how much was donated to us fuck them what are they going to do like you can't you can't steal it now again privacy implications for donors and stuff like that so since that's now changed uh but on on the face like if the

keys are properly held and secured, you know, it's going to work for everybody. So, yeah, excellent tool. And I look forward to countries realizing it's useful for them and also realizing that they can't make it not useful for individuals and people within their own borders. So with that, I'm going to change gears because this show, of course, why are we bullish just to find out why you guys are currently excited, what is top of mind for you in Bitcoin and tangential topics. And so I'm going to start here with Marco of Whiteboard Finance. Do welcome back to the show first off.

And secondly, same question everybody gets. Why are you bullish? Yeah, thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me. And thanks, Nathan, again in the chat for inviting me again. Yeah, so basically, I've been talking a little bit about gold the last, I don't know, I'd say pretty much since January, February of this year of 2025. I think gold bugs and bitcoinsers, you know,

we're literally two sides of the same coin, except that I said this on the last one, last time I was on here, is that I feel like gold bugs are almost pessimistic about the future, and bitcoins are optimists about the future. You know, we believe in the same principles, but, you know, I feel like gold is running, because if you watch that episode with Luke Roman over on what Bitcoin did,

shout out to Luke. He's also a fellow Clevelander. basically he's talking about how if gold actually gets repriced again to where it typically is with certain ratios of how many foreigners hold treasuries and things like that you know we should be at like sixteen thousand dollar an ounce gold right but the problem with that is that gold can be repriced at any time fiat can be inflated uh bitcoin is bitcoin it can't be printed it can't be seized it can't be revalued by decree because if they raise rates you know it may hurt our position it may detonate the dollar and may lose us our world reserve currency if someone else steps up to the plate,

which based on our conversation earlier, I don't think is going to happen. If they cut rates, they debase the dollar, which they may do a couple more times this year. And if they print more, they're going to try and, you know, inflate away our obligations, right? And ultimately, where does that printing go? It goes back into the greatest form of money ever created, which we all know is Bitcoin. So mine is more of like a base structural case of like everyone knows the money's made up. Everyone knows, you know, it's basically monopoly money at this point always has been, but that money is now going to an asset that is much more better than gold, in my opinion, which obviously is Bitcoin.

So it's basically just getting back to the fundamentals. There's some technological things that we can talk about, but, you know, if you want to look at like hash rate, it's never been higher. You know, infrastructure is there now. And I think nation states are obviously getting on board. but just from a from a macro lens where is the money the printed money going to go it's going to go into hard assets and for me that's bitcoin awesome i i'm curious on uh your guys thoughts on uh you know golds you know marco put in his piece here but peter eric um the thoughts on on what's been happening to gold and bitcoin kind of crab walking and

dip in sideways the last little bit. I know these are very short-term kind of things, but what do you think is the mindset that's contributing to what we've been seeing lately? Yeah, Eric, you want to jump on that? Yeah, I mean, frankly, I think that just because of the classic worldview that there has been, like gold is the classic safe harbor asset, and it's very clear that the direction that we're going, that our governments are highly incompetent and that they're never going to be able to actually resolve these debt problems in a meaningful way so that you should find yourself into a hard asset class. It also turns out that, you know, it's really the over 50 crowd that owns the vast majority of things. And they tend to be a bit more

not technologically as savvy as the younger generation. So it makes sense to me that gold's going to tear in this direction like this. And also like I think Bitcoin's crab walking because of a lot of the sort of paper Bitcoin games that we've seen being played. And it's pretty interesting because I feel a lot like the cycle that we saw in 2021 is playing out again. And that, we'll probably see some of these Bitcoin treasury companies blow themselves up. And I think that'll be this clear signal that like now we're going to tear super hard. And I'm happy that gold gets to have it. It's round.

You know, congratulations. You guys have made the second best bet that there has been available from quite a long time. And you guys have been. And, you know, you've held on dearly for a long time to get that. So congratulations. I'm really happy for you. I just hope that when we rip past you at 250K in the next two years, that you're going to really be like, okay, like maybe these Bitcoins guys get something. But yeah, like we're not

we're not against each other at all. Like we're much closer and I think that there's a lot of camaraderie to be found with each other. And I'm actually going to be really excited when somebody finding figures out like let's do like a hybrid gold Bitcoin treasury kind of company and figuring out a way to kind of do that. Because I think that that has a really strong offer. So I'm really bullish just sort of seeing that more and more people are actually coming to the table and getting what's going on. And, you know, just anecdotally, I now present to people like, hey, it's crazy that we're still paying into Social Security when it's obvious that like, we will never get to touch any of that money ever. And they're like, yeah, like that, that doesn't

make any sense. It's like, yeah, maybe you should like own an asset that like actually has a proven denominator, just something to think about. So I found people to be much more receptive because of sort of the narratives that are playing out. And it feels like we're much farther along in people sort of getting a general understanding versus, you know, even five years ago. Yeah, I think the basement trade, I think that's absolutely right that, you know, the sort of long-term trends on government debt, government deficits, you know, there are, I think most of the major countries in the world now have deficits that are four, five, six percent. that used to only happen in an absolute catastrophic recession.

Okay, and you've got what, the U.S. is $1.8 trillion, so that's about 6%. Japan, most of Europe, Germany, which had traditionally been very, very fiscally conservative as I think they're looking about 3% now. Again, these are all numbers. These were like horror show numbers for our whole lives, all the way back to the Nixon shock. And now this is the new normal. we are eventually going to have a recession here.

And, you know, history says that when you hit a recession, those deficits tend to blow up, historically, maybe two or four percent on top of that. We'd be looking at eight, 10 percent deficits. That's ridiculous. That's far worse than Japan had been doing at its worst spell these past couple of decades. That's getting into Weimar territory. And so I think what happens, what Eric mentioned earlier, you've got different demographics on Bitcoin and gold.

Silver is probably somewhere in between. And so I think that the Bitcoiners tend to perceive these things really fast, right? They're aware, they're passionate, they're still thinking about their future. The median gold, I don't have any statistics on this, but I'm going to guess the median gold owner is probably in their mid-60s. They're not paying attention to their assets so much. They're pretty much out of the game. They've got a park. They've got the permanent portfolio with the 20s.

28% in gold. They're not following it day to day, but they do on a lag. And so I think that gold and silver are sort of catching up the Bitcoin in terms of why is the crabwalk happening now, right? Bitcoin had a hell of a year last year, gold and silver did not. I think that to a certain degree, the demographics are catching up. I think another factor on the crab walk is that a lot of what's driving price in Bitcoin is adoption factors. Right. So you've got the Russia thing, you've got Trump with his Bitcoin Reserve, which, you know, right after the election, it looked like he was going to pay back Bitcoiners, and then he didn't, he paid in regulatory changes, but he hasn't established a Bitcoin Reserve for anything beyond seizures. He's also got little just sort of drips and drabs

from all over the world. So Sweden, a couple of MPs in Sweden introduced a bill pushing for a Bitcoin Reserve in Sweden. That's a country that could catch on for other European countries as well. You had a move in Japan recently to allow banks to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet. So there's a lot of adoption moves in Bitcoin, and depending on the ebbs and flows of that, that can then impact price. ETFs, you know, of course, that's been probably the biggest story over the past year. So those can affect it, whereas when you look at gold or silver, there's little movements here and there, what I think Texas moved to make gold and silver legal tender.

You've got a little bit of sort of this adoption type, you know, news factors, but I don't think they're as substantials there on Bitcoin. And then, of course, gold is just a larger market, right? So if banks can hold gold on their balance sheet versus if they can hold Bitcoin, one of those is going to have a much, much bigger effect, because the size of Bitcoin, you know, it's roughly two trillion market cap. That's about 10 times smaller than gold. It's like a tsunami running up a canyon, right? A little bit of water goes a long ways. And just to the demographic part in and around gold, versus Bitcoin. I've seen an interesting thing this year. Just looking at demographics, just even on the

channel, I'm looking right now, and between 45 to 65 makes up roughly 50% of my entire audience is in that demographic. So, you know, kind of, you know, further into your careers, probably have a few assets, have some disposable income, have some savings. And those people are beginning to, you know, a lot of them are former or current gold bugs that are understanding that Bitcoin is a play on that with improvements when it comes to physicality, transportability, divisibility, all those things. They're seeing like, oh, geez, like, I understand why this is. Now I need to understand how to utilize it.

And so it's really cool to kind of see that specific demographic hone in on it because, you know, it's a lot of people that get the why, but are maybe a little technologically timid. And I think that's kind of why they hone in because there's lots of tutorials and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm excited about that dynamic there. And if it's any indication, again, you've got a demographic that didn't grow up with Bitcoin always being there. but now we're going to have a younger generation that grows up to take on that demographic that will have always had Bitcoin as an option there and we'll maybe think it's a little less odd, maybe have a little less questions in and around the why and we'll already know the how.

So, you know, the coming decades could be very, very interesting. So I will also say before we shift gears, because I want to find out why Bo both Eric and Peter are bullish coming up here. But there's a lot of new people that tune into this show every week. So first off, I want to say, welcome to you guys. But I also want to say it's great to talk about current events and all of these fun things around Bitcoin. But if you're not actually then taking action and learning some of the tools and actually

you're learning how to self-custy, people understand the reason why you would have physical gold. but if you're buying Bitcoin, you're leaving it with a custodian or something like that, you're losing all of the benefits. You know, it's like buying a gold ETF. Where's the gold? It's maybe over there, maybe not. Same thing with Bitcoin, you need to learn the tools. So I always trumpet this quite a bit, but check out.

I have a page where I put up a bunch of like basic free tutorials that you can go through. There's a QR code on the screen or just go to BTCSessions. slash learn it's in the show notes but there's just some basic videos you can just fall along pick one at a time and just learn a skill at a time and just learn how to get a wallet learn how to secure it all those kind of things super super important uh if you take those steps you're going to be that much more self-sovereign and you're not going to have to worry about uh the state 60102ing your uh your bitcoin at some point so with that uh we're going to uh do a rotation here we're going to uh take a quick one minute break. We'll give a shout out to sponsors of the show. On the other side, Eric, I'm going

to be coming to you and be finding out why you're so damn bullish. Everybody else is watching, drop a like on the video if you're enjoying the conversation. We'll be right back in just a moment. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the US. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC sessions to sign up today. And you can share your own personalized referral link to earn commissions. Coin kite has been in the game for years creating hands down the best and most secure hardware when it comes to securing your Bitcoin.

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If you're looking to make use of your capital, don't sell your Bitcoin, borrow against it. You can head over to debify.com to check them out, or simply scan the QR code on the screen. All right, we are back in. And Eric, I'm going down to you. Again, thank you for rejoining me. It was, by the way, it was great. I know it was a while ago now, but it was great having you come visit Calgary, come to the Bitcoin rodeo, but also more importantly, the sat market.

I was stoked to see you there at our local Bitcoin circular economy was a fantastic time. So thanks for being here. How have you been, by the way, last little bit? Absolutely. I'm doing great. I'm loving life. I work out of a Bitcoin co-working space here in San Francisco called Presidio Bitcoin and meet all kinds of brilliant developers and individuals that are building just really cool

and different projects that are really kind of on the cutting edge of innovation. So I've learned a lot more about lightning and cashew and yeah. And that's one of the reasons I'm super bullish is just kind of talking to these people that are really kind of at the cutting edge of building really great and interesting projects. Yeah, and then just sort of looking at the global landscape, like more and more, I think people are becoming aware of just how extraordinarily dysfunctional our government systems are and how absolutely incompetent the sort of leadership we has. And a lot of people are sort of really realizing like no one is going to come and save you. There is no way to vote our way out of this. There, you know, and like I think it's really interesting with what Elon Musk did with Doge and how big and dramatic the cuts were and how unsubstantial they were in the long run and how much extraordinary backlash came from that. And it just highlights like this is not a solution that we are going to find within our traditional political systems, which is alarming for how that sort of plays out long

term. But I think that it's also really bullish for bit corners because we we have an actual solution. And like this is a great solution that means that even though the Titanic is sinking, there's lifeboat still. You can get on one. And, like, ironically, there isn't a giant line for them right now because most people are convinced that, hey, the orchestra is still playing. There's no way that the Titanic could sink. And then it's like, guys, like, just do, like, do the very basic math that, like, shows that these numbers cannot ever add up in any meaningful way.

And it's kind of interesting because I've noticed that, like, I have to coax people a little into it, but eventually they go, yeah, like, I'm never going to see Social Security. Yeah, there's no way we're going to pay down that debt. Yeah, it is super alarming that we're adding more than a trillion dollars in new debt. Like, what, like every six months at this point in time or something insane like that? Like it's this is truly bonkers. And like it's, I don't know, I think a lot about like how if we took the conversation today and like plopped it down the 1990s, like people would just be like wgging out.

And they'd be like, none of this makes any sense. Like we're we're all going to die immediately. And it's like, well, maybe not quite that. But so. So I always feel pretty good about it. when I come up against people's very nihilistic viewpoints, I go, hey, like, it is alarming, but, like, there's this thing called Bitcoin. Like, you should really inform yourself about it. Like, there is a way that you could actually own something for real that can't get extracted from you.

And to your point, like, you need to understand what self-custody is. And that's, like, a really important process because, like, very much like if, you know, there is a giant earthquake or some crisis happens that causes for the economy to collapse, like, you're going to need to actually have your ability to have custody of either your gold or in this case, Bitcoin. And particularly, like, if you find that you're in a country where you could get labeled as a political dissident or otherwise, you need to be able to cross borders where people are going to, you know, you're not going to be able to carry anything with you, which is the problem that gold has always had. So I feel like we're in a place that I'm more bullish than ever. And particularly

with seeing this crab walk thing going on, to me, that's a massively bullish signal because we've seen all of this development that's been happening over the last six months that more companies are getting a Bitcoin treasury. We're having more individuals understanding what it is. So to me, this has felt like the preliminary cycle before every bowl cycle. And it's like, I mean, we're complaining about a crab walk. And we're like 10% below the all time high, which is like five X what it was three years ago. You know, so like we're in a really great position. And each ball cycle that I've seen, this is sort of the behavior that it has before it tears super. And it's super. hard. So I'm excited about watching the rocket go to the moon. And, uh, you know, if you're out

there listening and, and have a little bit of curiosity, you should really buy some so that you can get your seat on the rocket ship rather than lamenting about how you missed out on your opportunity. I love that. And yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a, a general understanding from your average person nowadays that shit's broken. Like it's just impossibly broken. They see, you know, the, the, The numbers, I think, are lost on people, but they know inherently like, yeah, we just always more debt. They know that, you know, nothing is going to get paid back. They know that everything is ridiculous.

I mean, the Doge thing, because even I didn't really dive into the staggering scope of how much money is being blown on what versus what was being cut. And so to see all of these cuts, which, you know, most of which were very valid, like, why the hell are we paying for this, that, and the other thing. And it is a great thing to question and do and cut. But then to see it basically just not matter on the scope of what's actually still being spent in the proposed forward facing budgets was stash. was staggering. Peter,

I'm kind of curious. Do you recall, I'm sure you must have covered it at some point where with Doge, they were looking into where money was being spent and all this stuff. And they discovered, if I'm not mistaken, just a number of computers around the country that wouldn't even be pulling money from anywhere in particular. It would just be like making shit up on the spot to cover expenses and just like sending it literally from nothing. Do you recall that story?

Yeah, it was billions of dollars. And one of the things that they were that big balls and then were trying to do was to put tags on these to identify like what was what was the payment for? And apparently there were, you know, thousands of government workers who they apparently had authority to just pay stuff. From nowhere. It's not even through the treasury and bad like nothing. Yeah, there was no requirement. And, you know, anybody who's worked in a company, you know, you can't just cut a tax. check. You can't just sign the check and not indicate anywhere what it's for. It's pretty incredible.

And, you know, we're seeing scandals now. Like there's this one in California with the homeless money. So I guess 30 billion or something went out to fix the homeless problem. The homeless problem, of course, is worse than ever. And our side had been saying, you know, this is being Pilford. And it turns out, yes, yes, it was all pilfered. So, you know, you got these guys who are living high on the hog. So, I mean, it's just across the board. everything government touches is corrupt. This has been true for thousands of years. Like, you know, this is not because Donald Trump or, you know, Mark Carney.

I mean, this is government has always been corrupt. The reason it's corrupt is because the people who own it are not running it. You know, this is 101, you know, ancient principal problem, incentives alignment. And, you know, this is part of why people like Hans Herman Hoppe pushed to have a king again. although if you look at kings today, I don't know if there would be an improvement. I don't know if you guys saw the king in Thailand. Oh, no. Like, it's just, well, I'm like, what's going on?

Like, this is also fucking embarrassing across the board. Like, we're being fleeced. And, like, we're all sitting here, like, casual. Like, oh, yeah, like, billions of dollars. We're just, like, printed up by government. Like, car for the course. And it's just, it's so insane. And it just deeply hurts my heart,

Because like, what are we actually going to leave to our kids in any meaningful way? And how do we address this in any proper way? And I'm at the place that, like, I tell people very readily, like, fuck voting. It will never make any sort of difference. And how absolutely disingenuous you are to me that you tell me that voting matters when, let me know, like, can I vote to see how much money goes to different war industries? Do I get to vote and figure out how this budget works? No. So, like, what's even the fucking point?

So please actually, if you want to do the one thing that matters, exit the financial system. Use Bitcoin to actually help yourself in a meaningful way so that when this shit does finally blow up, as is very clear to everybody, you'll be in a position to at least help your family and friends in some kind of meaningful way, whether I've been being like, well, if you guys had just voted harder for the other guy, this wouldn't be happening. It's the illusion of choice. You have to put your own oxygen mask on first, you guys. That's what I've been preaching on my channel for years. whether it's something, whether it's equities, which you all know are overinflated, whether it's, you know, precious metals, whether it's collectibles, whether it's Bitcoin. I mean, you guys have to put something that's going to preserve your purchasing power, period, because the government's not going to do it for you. I think we're going to get to a point where, you know, if you guys are the Jeff Booth School of technology is deflationary, you know, what the hell are my kids

going to be doing in 20 years, right? Is college even worth going to go for them? You know, what's a Honda quarter going to cost in 30 years? $80,000. literally. So I think people need to understand that you got to invest your money in things that are going to preserve your real world labor, whatever that means, and it has to preserve your purchasing power, period, because we're all getting decimated by inflation. Yeah. On the time, sorry, Peter, I feel woefully uninformed on what the tie came. Yeah, we do. And then I've got some little something to sprinkle on top of that. That's kind of interesting afterwards. Yeah, no, I was hesitating because I didn't know if any of you guys were in Thailand because, or go to Thailand, because apparently you can get arrested for making fun of the king there. But since I don't plan to go to Thailand, all right, so the guy's a nut job. He, as, you know, in his 20s and 30s, he was like the crown prince and he was hanging out in Switzerland. He was having orgies. He was running around the malls in Thailand in like drag wearing like a tiny little t-shirt and little tiny boy shorts. This is the freaking king, right? And so, you know, you know, there were a lot of people in Thailand were like, no, no, no, this guy can't be king.

Because, like, people in Thailand, look at the king like he's Jesus Christ, traditionally, right? Tons of respect. And so this guy's just a lunatic. And now he's disappearing people in the cabinet, and he's just out there. So he's an extreme case. But, I mean, to be honest, like the King of England is not much better. Prince Andrew is no better at all.

But, you know, royals are not what they used to be. I'm just putting that way for those who think that, you know, Kings, you know, sort of the Curtis Yarvin thing, we're like, no, no, if we just get a king, this is all going to be fixed. No, the rot runs deeper than that. Well, I think it's interesting on the debasement trade is that inflation worldwide has actually come down a lot, right? So a couple years ago, everybody was talking about double digit. Now, I mean, it's three, four. I know it's government statistics, but still, it has clearly come down from what it was two or three years ago. And I think it's kind of interesting that now gold is taking off, silver taking off, Bitcoin, you know, has been taking off.

And I think what's happening there is that we're in the early stages of the shit hitting the fan, where people start to actually realize nothing stops this train. In other words, yes, the train slowed down compared to, you know, 2022, but what's more important in terms of price action is that people are understanding nothing stops this train. Why are they understanding that? I think that there's two big factors. is what happened with Doge and Trump. So you had unified Republican control of Washington. They had been promising for 80 years that if you just, if you just give us the steering wheel, we're going to cut the spending, they did almost nothing. You had the absolute dream team. For all the shit Trump gets, every single year in his first term, he tried to make big cuts to

government, 100, 200 billion cuts. He tried to slash whole agencies. Every time Congress told him to take a hike, he is by instinct a small government guy. Everything he did in the first term said that. I mean, COVID is special. That was his darkest moment. But broadly speaking, he's a small government guy. You had Elon Musk, who is obviously a small government guy. So you had the dream team.

You had unified control. You had Trump. You had Elon. And I think they got like $13 billion worth of cuts. Same thing in Europe, right? If you look at the populist parties today, None of them are Ron Paul. Okay, these guys, they are blending nationalism with socialism, which happened before.

They are all big government people, whether it's France, Poland, they all want, they want more spending. You're saying the same thing in Japan now. They just put in a populist prime minister to try to take some of the wind out of the sales of populace who are growing in Japan. Again, you know, pro-wall street, pro-financial industry, pro-big business, much more welfare spending. this is corporateism. So I think that when you put those together, shit's trucked up, and when you look at the sort of most likely ways to fix it, whether that's, you know, alternative for Deutschland or Donald Trump, all of those are going to make it worse. None of those guys are fiscally conservative. There is no Ron Paul who's remotely close

to power anywhere important in the world. So the inflation came down, but the realization, I think, is taking off. And speaking of the Donald Trump and the kind of pushback as of late, what was the name of all the protests that just happened? The what?

No king. Okay. So funny story. You guys had your No king's protests down there. Those spilled over into Canada where also there were the same no king protests. However, Canada, the king is still Canada's head of state. And we have somebody

called the governor general that performs the king's constitutional duties in Canada, granting royal assent to any law changes. So I found it hilariously ironic. And enough people noticed the irony in that that they actually changed the name of the protest to no tyrants. so yeah anyways i thought you guys might might find that kind of funny well like this is kind of the bozo shit that i hate is that like we're at such a place of people not applying logic in any meaningful fucking way and just repeating whatever they parrot and like being here in san francisco in the hub of like liberalism it's so interesting because like i just knows every time i push on people's values you get one of two things you get you get a highly reactionary uh

like, you know, you're, you're racist, bigot, hateful, fascist, whatever. Or the other is that they just like fucking crumble. And it's just like, oh, like, I never thought about it that way. It's like, you, you, you legitimately like never like put these two very basic ideas together and like spun it up in your own brain. You can see the loading symbol. Yeah. And it's like, like this kind of brain run has, has been really detrimental to the American public. Because like, I try to tell people like, look, I'm not right or left.

Like, fuck Donald Trump. Like, I think he's. on a number of levels. And also like, fuck Gavin Newsom. He's obviously a piece of shit. But like both of these people hate us and don't have a resolution. And so like we really need to just look to ourselves to find a new solution. And like, you know, again, I'm not a fan of Kings.

Like I actually think what we really need is to have some new political form vis-a-vis technology and the internet. I have no clue what that looks like. But it's very obvious to me that like we're at the point in the turning cycle that we need to have a true political revolution that involves changing the entirety of how the system functions in any meaningful way, even if we want to even have the same borders that nation states have had over the last 200 years. Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, how soon do you think that, uh, that fourth turning is, uh, going to come to that climax for you guys. What, what, what are you feeling?

We're in it. Yeah, this is, this is the climax, do you think? I mean, think about it, man. There's no trust in institutions. whatsoever. You know, people don't really believe in college. Gen Z feels disenfranchised. People don't trust CIA or Cash Patel or FBI or any of these people anymore. All they talked about was releasing Epstein files for four years and then what happened? You know, nothing. So I think trust is in an all-time low in a lot of different regards. And just if you want to talk about society in general, I mean, I just got back from Spain. I was in Madrid and Sevilla. And when you come back from a country that's actually a country, it's so, it's so crazy coming back to the states,

It just feels like this is such, I hate to be pessimistic because I'm not. I'm very optimistic. I have two little girls. But it just feels like late stage capitalism, late stage empire, really does. No one really loves their neighbor. No one really goes to city centers. No one really has an inherent love for one another. It's almost like we're very divided and walking on eggshells, which is very detrimental to society, in my opinion.

It very much depends where you are. If you're in like a small town in the south, then it's, You're living in the 17th century in terms of health of community. Everybody says good morning. Right. I mean, it is a huge difference. Yeah. What I've been impressed, I think, is that after 100 years of socialist debasement,

there is so much culture still left. And, you know, you look at like on TV, blacks and whites hate each other and the rich and the poor and the, you know, the gays and the straight day. Okay, day to day, that's not how people actually are. Like, you know, that's like this, this fun house. mirror of people fighting because, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. And like in reality, what I think's been exciting. So Trump, for example, got one in four black male votes, which, you know, traditionally, like,

if you were a black man and you were voting for Republican, you were, you were off the bus, man, there was a problem with you. I think that a lot of people, Hispanics, you know, he came within five points on Hispanic Americans, which again, that was supposed to be one of the, you know, sort of client Leninist demographics to launch the revolution and so much for that. So I think that what's what's exciting, I completely agree with you, Marco, that people have lost faith in institutions. This is very much a kind of forth-turning moment. I think we're just coming into it. I think COVID, honestly, was the single biggest blow on that, where the sort of Fabian socialists, meaning socialism where you do it step by step and, you know, you kind of infects.

them without them realizing it. Fabian socialism, I think, has already taken over the West. It largely took it over during the World Wars. That was part of the reason they started the World Wars, in my opinion. But people didn't realize that it was sort of being infused. They were raising each new education of student in that socialist substrate, so people were just taking it for granted. But I think what happened in COVID is that it's sort of like the Army was set up, they were waiting for the right moment, they were waiting for the weather to clear, and COVID was just too good of an opportunity. They couldn't pass it up, and they went for the goal. They said, this is our moment. That was the great reset. They started burning down cities.

It's like they launched everything before they were ready, right? They didn't have the supply chain set up. They didn't have enough ammunition. They weren't there yet. They needed to wait another generation before they did that, they did it too early. And it was so obvious, right? For just regular people who are kind of non-combatants in the ideological battle, like when you see something like how, what was it, the Sturgis bike rally in South Dakota was like a mass murder event because everybody was going to get the COVID. And then the BLM riots, no, no, no, those were cool because the institutional racism and the global warming. It was so transparent. Mostly peace. I said mostly peaceful. They were mostly peaceful. Yes, yes. Most of the cities did not burn, in fact. And so like it was so transparent, I think, for the non-combatants, they needed another generation to get another 10, 15% of the population over the line to sufficiently brainwash them. Because it takes a couple generations, right? The first generation of brainwashed a kid, he's still got the parents infecting him with wrong thing. It takes a couple generations. So I think they launched too early. You combine that now with fundamentally the internet and specifically social,

media. It's basically Gutenberg 2.0, right? Gutenberg in the 1400s, that was the printing press. The magic of it was that before Gutenberg, if you wanted to write something down, you had to hire a bunch of monks. Not only was that extremely expensive to mass produce, but the monks had to be cool with it. Gutenberg meant you could crank out 5,000 pamphlets. You could send it to all the towns in southern Germany, and you could say, we're being robbed by this Duke meet next Sunday, and we're going to have a word about it. Okay, peasant revolts across the entire country. Now, that is a exactly what the internet is. It's what social media is. So that was the kindling. And then I think the COVID early launch was the spark. So I think we are absolutely, these next five, 10 years are

going to be, there's going to be tragedies. But anyway, I'm, I'm kind of excited to see what happens here. That's such a positive way to spin it. One of the things I think is interesting is like, go ahead, Eric, sorry. I was just going to say, the things that i think is interesting is that uh i think because of with how substantial the gingy coefficient is and how disenfranchised the youth are like i expect a lot of them to pivot into like a hardcore boot stomping uh socialist movement but i think what they don't understand is that uh frankly like they don't get what it means to try to actually have a radical movement and i think that in the course of that happening they're going to get their teeth just kicked in because like they're still

is this hardcore contingency of individuals that really want to be non-combatants and they're forced to be pulled into a lot of this crazy bullshit, very similar to how COVID pointed out. And I think people are getting angry about it. And when that war comes to their front porch, they're going to be, they're going to say, this is bullshit. I'm not participating. And I'm going to move very hard against it. So like, well, I do think there's going to be some real rabble rising and problems. Like, I just think it's so interesting that these movements, if they actually had strong leadership and real conviction towards what they were doing, they could do some serious damage. But like, they're all these, they're just really flabby.

Like, I don't know. It's like this isn't like a Lenin or anybody. This is, you know, this is like some fat chick with green hair. And like that, you know, like nobody, like nobody's going to fall into a grocery store. like nonetheless to like storm the bastile with her so like i i don't know and it's like not necessarily to hate on her specifically but like these aren't powerful figures that you want to lead you into the future like this is this is the symptom of a collapsing society yeah yeah revolution it's it's it's just embarrassing there's this funny uh fact in the u.s anyway and i expect also in canada in europe

so there was a unite the right rally a couple years ago right where they were They were carrying the torches in Virginia. And a lot of the leaders of that, which, which, you know, it was, it was kind of extreme in terms of, even among Trump supporters, a lot of the leaders of that were former Bernie Sanders guys. These were Bernie bros. To the extent that in the beginning, people were like, no, no, no, this was false flag. You know, they were. No, no, no, no. These guys had flipped from Bernie to Trump.

And, I mean, they were still, you know, kind of insane. So they were doing crazy stuff. But the moral of the story is that in a sense, if you look at the sort of marketing funnel into populism, it includes a boot stomping left winger stage for however long that is, two, three years. and then, you know, you have to get a job, you have to pay taxes, you have to, you know, you have a mortgage, you have your kid in school with the stupid public school teachers. People flip over, but they don't just, like, they don't become accountants, right? They become rabble rousers for the other side. I mean, you know, you see people like Scott Pressler.

I mean, you know, Jordan Peterson used to be a left winger. Elon Musk was a left winger with the book, Harry Potter, J.K. Rowling. All of these people are flipping over. And when they flip, they don't. like, you know, decommission themselves and become non-combatants. They are just as energetic as they were, but now they flip sides. You see that with, who's the girl, uh, young Turks, uh, alongside chagin. On the cavern.

You see that like those wheels turning in her head too. Like she's a lot of that. But I mean, people are just, it, it just speaks to the discontent, right? Like people are pissed. They want radical change. They don't know what that change. change is because as Eric outlined, they haven't thought through a number of basic principles and like ideas and mash them together to see what happens when they think about it.

It's just I'm angry. Shit sucks. Let's burn it all down. Oh, my team didn't burn it all down. It was the status quo. I'll jump to the other side. Oh, shit, more status quo. What do we do?

I mean, there's your climax when people realize that no matter what side of the fence they're on, it's the status quo. And I think, yes, we're coming up to that point. Now, before we continue on here, I'm conscious of time, Marco, I know you've got like limited time left. So I want to do a rotation. Peter, I'll give you a final word here because it sounded like you really want to. You're good. Okay.

But we're going to go for a quick one minute break. But on the other side of it, actually, Peter, I'm going to stay with you because I want to find out why you're so bullish, what you're currently excited about. And then we'll get Marco and Eric to chime in. For everybody that's watching right now for the few thousand people that have already joined into the show, make sure you drop a like on the video if you're enjoying the conversation. And again, as I said before, if you're brand new to kind of this Bitcoin space or just love hearing about the news and everything, but you have not taken the steps to actually learn and put the rubber to the road and actually self-custy or Bitcoin, please do take those steps. Again, there's QR code on the screen. You can scrub back through the video and scan it or go in the show notes. There's BTCSessions.ca slash learn.

Please, please, please take the time to begin learning how to actually properly self-cust your Bitcoin and protect your sound money from all of the bullshit that we've just been talking about right now. Because when shit, it's the fan, if you're not protected, then it's very easy to yoink your money from a custodial exchange. So make sure you do take it. those steps. Anyways, we're going to be back in one minute. We're going to find out why Peter is so damn bullish. See you guys in the same. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your

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Click the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen to check out the Honey Badger Plan. All right, we are back. And Peter, you get the final word here. I'm going to toss it to you, and we're going to find out why are you bullish? All right. So we've got the debasement thing. We talked about that. The other thing that I'm excited about is the generational trade.

So this is a great line by Douglas Adams, Hitchhiker's Guy to the Galaxy. He says, anything invented before you're born is normal, ordinary, as part of the world. Anything invented up to age 35 is new and interesting. anything invented after year 35 is against the natural order. A lot of you guys will know that quote. Bitcoin, right? I think the fundamental question in Bitcoin is, will Fiat die? And if it dies, what are we going to switch to?

We're going to switch to. We're going to switch to Bitcoin. If Fiat dies, how much is Bitcoin worth? Right? So that's pretty easy. You take all the money in the world, you divide it by all the Bitcoin in the world. You get $5, $6 million. Boom, there you go.

So the questions is, what are the probabilities? I think we are almost certain we've been talking about it all that fiat is going to die. The question is simply when. It's died many, many times before. All of the trends that we're seeing right now have been repeated many times is the Roman Empire, the Song Dynasty China. Fiat dies 100 percent on a long enough timeline. And then the question is, what do we flip to?

That Douglas Adams quote, right? That idea that like if we flip, if Fiat dies next Tuesday, almost certainly we're going to go to gold and then we're going to be sitting about kivetching about how Bitcoin is better than gold. If, however, Fiat dies in 10 years or, you know, even five years, there's an escalating chance that we're going to skip the gold section. We're just going to straight to Bitcoin. So fundamentally, you know, partly we were talking earlier how as Bitcoiners age, they have more assets and now they can put more money into it. That's one factor that I think is a huge tailwind for Bitcoin. But the other is that demographic question. Now, it doesn't have to

die for that to impact the price, right? Like, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of a dynamic equation. So you ask, all right, when is fiat going to die? When is? So it's almost like the longer fiat lasts, the better it is for Bitcoin, because the more likelihood that we just go switch, uh, straight over to Bitcoin. And so asymptotically, therefore, as those probabilities increase, both that fiat dies younger and that more and more people are using Bitcoin, they're accustomed to it, uh, it was, you know, invented before they're born and they actually have assets. that's, they actually have influencer of organizations. As that happens over time,

I think that we're destined to asymptotically approach that $5, $6 million mark in today's dollars. That's, that's, I mean, I agree. I would love for that change to take place. You know, first of all, it gives time for myself, my family to, you know, stack away a bit of a nest egg. And for all the existing bit corners that, even like the brand new people just coming in right now, maybe watching the show for the first time,

are thinking I'm too late, and that couldn't be further from the truth, right? Like if you're trying to measure something that is static in supply and your measuring stick grows forever at an increasing rate, then your vision of what expensive is is going to be very skewed, whereas the value in the broken ruler is always going to go up. forever because it's broken.

And I would love enough of a timeline where, again, I've got young kids. I got two kids and my daughter's just old enough to start learning about this stuff. She has her own little lightning wallet. Actually, Eric, you saw her at the sat market and she was, you know, sending and receiving stats between the merchants and everything. You know, I would love her to not only like continue learning about Bitcoin, but for the timeline to work out where as you're saying, you know, I would love her to, you know, I would love her to, you know, saying, Peter, it takes a little bit longer to come to fruition, but we actually move to a money

that solves a lot of these problems. Because if we move back to gold, what does that look like? Well, a similar situation, we're going to put some gold in vaults, and then we're going to have an extraction of that. We're going to have an abstraction of that in the form, a digital form of some sort, but there's nothing explicitly linking, even if you have a blockchain. So again, new people, somebody's throwing the term blockchain at you. Oh, it's on the blockchain. It's bullshit. It's like nothing explicitly links a token on a blockchain to a physical asset for sure, right? You can say there's a token that represents an ounce of gold, but, you know, that ounce of gold can be stolen and there's still a token that exists. So, you know, I think that if we were to move to a gold standard,

we'd get some flavor of that and people would erroneously think for a period of time while this is better than what we had before but it's not it might be quicker to transact but like if the underlying asset is is disappeared and the actual tokens you're using can inflate forever then what the hell's the difference um so yeah i mean i like that that thought and it makes me a little less annoyed at watching crab walks uh it makes me enjoy them a little bit more. So I'm, I want to get Marco's take on this too. I know you're, you're coming to time, but I want your thoughts on what Peter said. Yeah, thank you so much. So I just want to leave everyone with, first of all, Ben, thank you for inviting me. I do have to get my daughter from aftercare ironically. But yeah, with what Peter said, I completely agree. I think at the end of the day, you guys, you have to zoom out when you feel like selling, which should be usually never, at least in the next 10, 15, 20 years. You know, just take a step back, check your fundamentals. Has anything changed? Has the bull case changed? Has some new technology been

introduced that's really going to affect Bitcoin? The answer in 2025, October 22nd of 2025 is no. So for me, I'm still not selling. I'm going to be holding for many, many years to come. And if you have children or someone that you care about or a charity that you care about, think of them before you click the sell button because you may regret it. So I do have to run you guys. Thank you so much for having me, Ben. Nice meeting you, Eric. Peter, nice talking to you. Cheers, Marco. Appreciate it. See you guys. Thank you.

Awesome. And everybody, make sure if you enjoyed Marco's takes here, you can check him out links down below to check out where he's at. But Eric, I'm going to toss it over to you as well. Your thoughts on having some low time preference towards the adoption of Bitcoin. What's your take here? I mean, for starters, like we're like 15 years in. You know, like the fact that we have accrued this much value that this many people get, like, it's very clear that this is a mind virus that takes time for people to understand. And if you legitimately let yourself dive into the game theory of how this all works, you come to the same conclusion.

You know, and so, like, I've been involved with this for more than a decade now. And what I find so interesting is that, like, I was just an insane person for a long time. I just went to the game theory in my own. I decided to throw my weight behind, you know, working at Bitcoin companies till I was very excited about my own conclusions. When lo and behold, more and more people came to the exact same conclusions. And to be clear, like, this wasn't like the Neanderthal that, like, I talked to football about. But, like, this was always, like, really brilliant individuals that, like, I had a lot of respect for how their minds worked.

And the fact that they came to the same conclusions as I did was a really important thing. And this is the same reason why we all. didn't come to the same conclusion as gold. We like, we get that like, gold has a very real problem. It's that like, I can show up with my army and like take all of your goal. That's kind of what the entire story of the 20th century was for those of you who skipped history class. And so like it's really important that we actually have this mechanism.

Same thing with like Bitcoin has cryptography out of base, not just because we like like big numbers and think it's really fun, but that like it's fundamentally part of more theory and game theoretics that have been played out. And these are all really important things that go in with the same reason why the hash rate functions that it does, why it takes actual computational electrical energy. So anybody who is a relatively smart individual that can recursively go back down into every single question that they have about why is Bitcoin the answer and not fucking Zcash as this cycle seems to be about. And like, there's always going to, and like, that's the one that hurts me the most and makes me the most frustrated is that people are like, yeah, but XRP. And like, I just want to stab them with a fork. Not that I would do that, but it's just like, come on, guys.

Like it's XRP is not the answer. It's not Zcash. It's not any of this other garbage. And it's because of those game theories of how the actual mechanics work. And so for the Zcash Bros recently like, it's a fucking B.C. Coyn, 80% is owned by a bunch of guys that I can go hold a blowtorch tour and get 80% of the supply. That's not fucking secure. That's something else.

That's security theater. Big difference between these. to. So on a long-term time span, like when you do the actual hard work, that's probably a few hundred hours to really understand why it is Bitcoin and not any of these other things and not gold or anything else, you really come to a core understanding that like, this is the answer that humanity has been waiting for to solve this very difficult problem that also involves really a chain of historical development that like Bitcoin could only be created in 2009 because of all of the technology that came up to 2006.

And so getting that understanding is important, understanding why a denominator is the quintessential invention that Satoshi really came up with. Like all other things we can find more of in the world, including gold. Like you can't make any more Bitcoin and you can know the exact number of Bitcoins that are out in the world today. Like that's an extremely important thing because all other things can be inflated through either acquiring more of them or just changing the fucking number at the bottom like our government seems like to do frequently so like i just really encourage anybody who's slightly on the fence or

there are a couple things that you don't know like do the leg work like do your proof of work and figure it out and like if you conclude that like bitcoin's wrong please let me know i would really like to know like i'm i'm not this bullish on bitcoin just because like number go up like i sincerely believe that this resolves a lot of the core issues of humanity and how we've functioned and why we've had to go into these giant and horrific world wars that have been financed by fiat money throughout the 20th century. And the final note on this is that this is the thing that it can actually end the horrific social experiment that we've been doing for the last hundred years. Like this shit doesn't work.

Okay. Like you don't get the steel shit from people and redistribute it and like expect people to be like, yeah, I'm going to work hard and build a company when I know the government's going to steal it and redistribute it to a bunch of people who don't preserve it. That shit doesn't work. And so like, that's why Bitcoin does work. It's because like you actually own it. The government can't come put a gun to your head and take it like they can do with a house, a business or your gold. That's a really important feature that I think and I hope that people really understand. So that's kind of my diatribe about my long-term perspective and why Bitcoin is so important.

I have a question for both you guys in regards to, again, you know, Eric, earlier you were talking about, you know, having the internet as this ability, you know, this is why, you know, kind of that early COVID, like, jumping the gun, you know, being able to communicate and get, get all the information out to everybody and, and not be censored, has allowed things to, kind of accelerate. And I'm wondering if that we're reaching a point now where the understanding that Bitcoin is the thing is getting very close to being a given for a lot of people. And the reason I say that is because this cycle, there's a couple of things that have happened. Number one, most, most of the shitcoin stuff has been overt garbage. like that there's no use case it's the meme coin thing right meme coins are just an outward overt omission omission that this has no value it's purely speculative it's garbage and we're just going to see what pumps and gamble on it right like that's this like the most honest that

crypto has ever been um but then you've got yeah you've got the odd thing like zcash or x or p that that rears its ugly head again and people get taken for it. But it's not ubiquitous everywhere. It's like a few people get sucked in, sucks for a while for them and then they learn. The other thing that's happened is a lot of people and there's always lessons that even Bitcoiners, Bitcoiners that understand it's only Bitcoin learn is that just because you understand it's only Bitcoin doesn't mean that you know everything. So last cycle, it was like leverage products and then holy shit, you know, just because I understand it's Bitcoin only doesn't mean I can't still screw up by levering myself to the dits and then catching a down swing, catching a dip and getting liquidated.

And this time there's, you know, what's the story of this cycle? It's the, it's the treasury companies. And right now there's there seems to be a narrative like there's enough guardrails that no wrong can be done. And I don't think, I don't think that's true at all. I could tell clearly that you don't either. You know, is it a good idea if you have a solid business that actually makes money? If you're able to create value for others, spend less than you earn, does it make sense to save in Bitcoin as an individual or a company? I think that's a no-brainer.

But when the main reason you own a company is because that company owns Bitcoin, I think that becomes a major problem. problem and yeah i think there's fuckery afoot and i think that uh people will be finding out in short order but my main question is is is this close to the final boss where people are like bitcoin only uh they're just now saying like well i'm i'm getting exposure to bitcoin through this thing because people and like people are trying to get more bitcoin and the bitcoin person share and all of that stuff. If that gets knocked off as like, oh, crap, things can go wrong with that too. Are there many more final bosses beyond that in understanding that Bitcoin is the thing?

I mean, like, I honestly think this is like a recursive structure and like we've hit our cadence. And that like there, there's always going to be like some new form of that like, I like Bitcoin. You should give me your Bitcoin. Like the treasuries, this is just the iteration. of like Bitcoin leverage products in 2021. And like that's just the iteration of like the shit coin ICOs from 2017. And like that's just the iteration of like the alt coins of like the 2014 cycle. So like this, this is all something repeatedly.

So like I think that these blow up, we get a bull rally. Like the next iteration is like nation states like holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet. Like Bitcoin's a wonderful economic vehicle. But like it doesn't change the fundamental. finances of that like if you have a shitty company that like doesn't make fucking money and you just like buy a bunch of bitcoin low and behold when it comes time to pay the bills and you have to liquidate your bitcoin and that like turns out that that's like below what you bought for it like you're in a shitty position and you're going to destroy your company as as it should you know and so

it's very similar to like bitcoin is a wonderful vehicle for savings but like it doesn't resolve the fact that like if you're not cash flow positive in a meaningful way like you you don't have money so like i i i personally think that like you know and then after the nation state blows up it'll be like the robot armies that like have their own bitcoin treasury and then it's like the drone fleet that has theirs and like it's just going to go on and on until like finally it's like mars has their own bitcoin treasury and because they're outside of the hash horizon that's like somehow allows them to try to break Bitcoin. I don't know. So like, I'm pretty confident at this point. Yeah, the hash for like, this is a concept that Drew came up with about Bitcoin astronomy. So like, but you know, like to me,

the great thing is is that people are actually thinking about what it means to have a hard ass at like Bitcoin and that we're, we're past the bullshit stage of people like, well, the government loves you and why would they ever make it so that we don't have social security? It's like, yeah, the government does hate me and yeah i'm never going to get access to that and what am i going to do so uh i do think that the bitcoin treasury thing's going to blow up in the face of a bunch of people who uh you know like my motto is always like i like bitcoin by my shit coin and that's essentially what a bitcoin treasury company is because uh whether you know and to be fair micro strategy is the one that played the game a bit different and they got a lead on that every other treasury company it seems to be problematic

for a whole series of reason. So like, I don't touch this shit because like every time I start worrying about it, I go, whoa, like hang on. Like I have my Bitcoin. I have it in a way that is multi-staking recoverable in a meaningful way. That's my investment plan. I don't need to go play this bullshit game of buying some Bitcoin treasury that has leverage products that does this.

So to me, that's a losing game. And it's losing because I've already overthought about it way too much. Just like buy a Bitcoin, hold it in your own self-custodial setup. up and like chill and that's it pretty pretty easy formula peter i'm your thoughts here yeah so people have an inherent urge to gamble uh this has been true for a very long time uh stock bubbles you know there were bubbles in the 1600s uh they invented the diving bell and they were like think of all the gold on all the floors of all the oceans and uh i think i think i think newton actually wiped out on that bubble so i mean okay bubbles will always be here there's an inherent

massive speculation built into Bitcoin to the extent that you are, whether you want to or not, you are gambling on the probability that Bitcoin becomes the dominant money. That's also true in gold. So I did a back-of-envelope calculation, and between 91 and 95 percent of gold's value is monetary speculation. If you break down the monetary demand for gold, the jewelry demand, the industrial demand, it adds up to like, I don't know, $300 or something. Almost all of it is monetary speculation, which is why gold many times since the 70s, gold has doubled or dropped in half in a number of years. Now, if you're naive, you would say, wait a minute, that's crazy. How can you run an economy on a currency? You know, gold sucks, right? And, you know,

of course, no, no, the answer is gold itself is wonderful. The issue is that there's this massive monetary speculation built into any alternative money that exists in gold. Gold goes up, you know, 2X, falls 2X, that's going to be much, much bigger in Bitcoin. So I think we are going to continue seeing these. You know, if you look at the AI bubble right now, AI is just eating everything. It's like 40% of economic growth. I think David Sachs claims the dot-com bubble was similar. Actually, the AI bubble is bigger at the moment, having lived through dot com. Until Bitcoin has that kind of a blow off, and, you know, without a doubt, if it's, if, if, If Bitcoin right now were in the kind of bubble that AI were, then you would have governments,

you know, threatening the rate. I mean, you would have all kinds of political shenanons going on. When that happens, that's the final boss battle. But I don't think we're probably not decades from that. I think just like Eric said, we'll continue seeing these, you know, they'll keep finding new things. It'll be Bitcoin leverage, it'll be treasuries. There'll be something else next year. They'll constantly have that. They're actually relatively restrained in the grand scheme of the universe, right if bitcoin is is 10x the speculation that gold is i'm actually impressed like a crab walk is progress you know two three years ago the joke with bitcoin was you know you go to starbox and they said that'll be seven dollars that'll be two dollars that'll be twelve dollars and be like wait wait wait

let me pay stop changing the price okay so you know there is value to having something with a little bit more stability than bitcoin had certainly five years ago that's fair that's fair i i uh maybe maybe maybe next cycle ends up being the rush to Bitcoin-backed bonds and there's a whole bunch of speculation. Yeah, that's a great game. Yeah, well, we shall see. But either way, if you're watching

this, don't fall for it. Just buy the Bitcoin, as Eric said, get a good self-cussy set up and you're good to go. Gentlemen, I'm conscious of time. I'm going to round down now, but I do want to give you guys the chance to let

people know what you're up to and where to find you. So, Eric, I'll start with you. People, if they want to find you what you're up to, the projects that you're working on, anything like that, let them know where to find you and what you're doing. Yeah, best to find me is on Twitter. It's just my name, Eric Kaysen. You can follow me there. I have a book called Crypto Sovereignty. It's really about sort of the philosophical and the philosophical integration of Bitcoin into a larger framework of the world. And sort of extending on that mission. I've co-founded a company called Bora. We're essentially trying to build a private AI box that's going to be a server that lives at your home that is encrypted and like

you fully own everything on open source LLM that you're running because AI is in a massive bubble. And that's why like every single piece of shit startup that you find is doing something like that. And so our long vision is that we're going to integrate an HSM that's a hardware security module that's air-gapped into it so that your Bitcoin can live there too, and that this can be your one-stop shop to have your personal home server that can store your Bitcoin and do everything else in it. And we're just kind of in the early stages of finishing our pre-seed, bringing on head of AI relatively soon.

And we're really excited because I co-founded this with my best friend, who was also one of the main security architects, both at Coinbase and then later on at Bitkey. So we've got a really powerful team, and we're really excited about making it so you have a private AI that you can ask all of your questions and it's not going to go to Elon Musk or Sam Altman or anybody else because that's going to become really valuable information as we start using it more and more. So with that being said, check it out. We're always welcome to feedback and you can reach out to us at the links up below.

Oh yeah. Yeah, I joined the wait list to find out of this out, but vora.io, that's right? Yep. Awesome. Awesome. Peter, same to you. Let people know where they can find you, what you're up to, all that stuff. Yep. So I make daily videos up on Twitter.

They're a little three and a half minute, sort of covering what's the major news of the day, focusing on economics and freedom. I also do monthly recaps of what the heck is going on in the economy. So Profs Saint-Ange, P-R-O-F, S-T-O-N-G-E on Twitter, and then you can also find it on YouTube and the other ones. Awesome. Awesome. And I will say that your videos are so nice. They're fun and they're very easily digestible. It's a nice start to any day when you pull up a Peter Saint-Ange video and enjoy his awesome takes on what's going on. What's your little tagline, what the clowns are doing? How do you phrase it? Yeah, what the clowns are doing to you. And yeah, always we'll be watching.

yet. Nice. I love it. I love it. So yeah, please do check out Peter and Eric and of course Marco over at Whiteboard Finance. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Again, follow everybody here. Drop a like on the video if you enjoyed the conversation. And of course, as I've been trumpeting throughout the video, please, please do dive into becoming more self-sovereign learning about self-custy with Bitcoin. I always play a little clip at the end of these shows and that will tell you exactly where to go for that. So gentlemen, I appreciate you. you. Have a wonderful evening. Thanks for getting bullish with me on a Wednesday.

See you guys soon. Thank you very much. Cheers, guys. If I can learn to play it, here we will. Anyways, we'll see you guys later. Cheers. Hey, you. Yes, you watching the Bitcoin price movements and the latest exciting news. It's awesome to stay informed, but the real power of Bitcoin comes from taking control.

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