BTC Sessions - Silent Payments, Pay Join & the Bitcoin Tech Making You Invisible | NVK & Francis Pouliot

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

Mentor Sessions Ep. 056: Bitcoin Privacy Is At Risk (But These Fixes Are Coming) | NVK & Francis PouliotAddress reuse is silently destroying Bitcoin privacy—and most Bitcoiners have no idea how exposed they are. Coinkite founder NVK and Bull Bitcoin founder Francis Pouliot break down the most critical privacy vulnerabilities in Bitcoin today, why kidnappings tied to crypto wealth are surging across Europe (one every four days in France), and the technical solutions finally closing the gap. From silent payments and async pay join to BIP322 proof of reserves and UTXO management, this is the most comprehensive Bitcoin privacy conversation of 2025. Learn why giving your xpub to an exchange is catastrophic, how 5% pay join adoption could break chain analysis entirely, and why Nostr disposable identities may be the missing piece for private payments. If you hold Bitcoin, this episode could protect your life—not just your stack.About NVK: Founder of Coinkite, creators of the COLDCARD.🐦 https://x.com/nvk | 🌐 https://coinkite.comAbout Francis Pouliot: CEO of Bull Bitcoin.🐦 https://x.com/francispouliot_ | 🌐 https://bullbitcoin.comChapters:00:00:00 Teaser & Intro – Bitcoin Privacy Risks Are Real00:01:05 Where Bitcoin Self-Custody Stands Today00:03:32 Three Unsolved Bitcoin Problems: Privacy, Speed & Inheritance00:05:46 The UX Problem: Aggregating Bitcoin Tools00:08:16 Dangers of Single-Vendor Bitcoin Solutions00:11:27 Silent Payments Explained: What They Are & Why They Matter00:13:06 Async Pay Join & BIP77: Underused Privacy Tool00:15:35 Why Receiving Silent Payments Is Hard00:17:10 Nostr as a Payment Identity Layer00:19:41 Disposable Identity: The Missing Privacy Piece00:23:00 Silent Payments Into Wasabi: The Dream Flow00:28:13 Why xpub Sharing Is a Privacy Disaster00:30:44 On-Chain Privacy vs Layer 2 Privacy00:33:38 How Pay Join Breaks Chain Analysis00:37:11 Network-Level Privacy Tools: Kyoto & Floresce00:39:43 Why Bitcoin Kidnappings Are Surging in Europe00:41:32 Identity Leaks & KYC Data Exposure00:44:04 ColdCard Firmware: BIP322 Proof of Reserves00:48:20 WIF Private Key Signing on ColdCard00:51:34 UTXO Management: The Underrated Problem00:54:14 Push Transactions & Broadcast Privacy00:59:43 Migrating Wallets Privately: The Right Way01:05:06 Lightning at Merchant Scale: Still Not There01:09:39 Cashu Mints, Federation Models & Trust Trade-offs01:14:26 MintChip: Canada's Forgotten Digital Cash01:19:57 Liquid Network, Stablecoins & Confidential Transactions01:32:44 Depix: Brazil's Liquid Stablecoin Explained01:37:00 Bitcoin Development Happening at the App Layer01:39:17 What's Coming from Coinkite & Bull Bitcoin⚡ Abundant Mines – Fully managed Bitcoin mining: https://qrco.de/bgYKPB🔒 COLDCARD – 5% off the best hardware wallet: https://qrco.de/bfiDBV🛡️ Dirty Man Safe – 10% off with code BTCSESSIONS: https://dirtymansafe.com🏠 Horizon – Unlock home equity for Bitcoin: https://joinhorizon.com/?ref=BTCSESSIONS💡 Bitcoin Mentor – Book a private session: btcmentor.ioPrevious Episode with Matt Hill: https://youtu.be/Dv1-JfjxuAYFollow Us on X: @BTCsessions | @theBTCmentor | @GaryLeeNYC#Bitcoin #BitcoinPrivacy #SilentPayments #PayJoin #ColdCard #NVK #FrancisPouliot #BullBitcoin #Coinkite #UTXOManagement #BitcoinSecurity #ChainAnalysis #BIP322 #ProofOfReserves #LightningNetwork #Nostr #BTCSessions #BitcoinPodcast #SelfCustody #HardwareWallet

The stats are so insane that they're hard to believe, but I think there's like one kidnapping every four days on average in France. Because if somebody knows how much money you have, they might want to rob you harder. Adress reuse is like a massive, massive problem. Simon Paints are probably the biggest improvement to Bitcoin. You can use their silent payments. You can mix it. You do whatever you need to that. If 5% of people use pay join, that means that the chain analysis system stop working.

Your identity is leaked in like so many places. You never want to link payments to identity. You know, like, that's how you get killed in jail. NVK built one of the most trusted Bitcoin hardware wallets on the planet, and Francis Poliop built one of the best Bitcoin exchanges in the world. Now, these two don't always agree on everything, but today they agree on this. Most Bitcoiners are more exposed than they know,

and the consequences are more than just financial. In this episode, Ben comes along for the ride as we dive deep into the latest technical developments and find ourselves exploring the bleeding edge of Bitcoin privacy, the problems that developers are still working to solve, and the risks of leaked identity. Plus, they share the latest updates on projects at CoinKite and Bold Bitcoin. Hello, and welcome back to the Bitcoin Review podcast with me today, Nathan Fitzamonds,

BTC Sessions, and Francis. Beautiful. I love it. Thank you, sir. The perfect introduction. Gentlemen, thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with me. And yes, there hasn't been a Bitcoin.com review since June, so I needed to get these guys together so we could talk about tech, talk about what developments are happening in the space, and see what we're missing, because usually that was my golden go-to to find out the latest update.

So NVK, I'll start with you, man. The thing that caught my attention the other day, the thing I was thinking about the other day was that I don't know what else I'm kind of missing from my Bitcoin stack. Like, I'm actually really happy with like Sparrow and Bull Wallet and my cold card queue and I've got my lightning note and everything set up.

I'm not sure what I don't know that I need. Like I'm not even sure what the latest developments or exciting stuff is. So just to kick off the conversation, what tech, what things kind of have your attention? What are you looking forward to? what's exciting that's come out. So here's the cool thing.

It's been now, what, 16 years of Bitcoin and about almost 10 years of code card, right? Yeah. I think we've essentially stabilized self-custody in a like bulletproof setup, right? Like, I mean, if you have your seed plate buried somewhere, if it's split, if it's not split, whatever. Like, you know, you can get into the intricacies of each part as much as you like, right? But if you have metal, you're using sparrow or bull Bitcoin. for the wallet and you have a cold card like you're pretty sad i mean like you know especially for people who are just like huddling right like you know it's it's kind of all you need now i think like

what people are missing is like the amount of developments that there are into how you can add nuance to yourself custody right so for example you know you can set up spending policies in your cold card you know you can do the push tx to to get your transactions out, right? You can use silent payments with Bull wallet, right? Like, there's all these other nuances that's worth learning. But, like, as long as people get to this, like, three basic setups done, like, you're good. Like, you know, it's, it's like, we're there.

Like, it's amazing. You know, it's like having a safe for your gold. Like, you know, like what kind of guns you're going to have around your safe? Well, that's, you know, that's the nuance, right? Beautiful love it. Francis, your thoughts? I think Advocay is right. Like buying and holding Bitcoin on a securely is a problem that is, you know, largely solved, especially for people who are sophisticated.

And the two problems or three problems that I think are still in the process of being solved are privacy, transaction speed and costs and inheritance. So, you know, in terms of privacy, there's a lot of tools. out there, but there's a lot of more promising tools also that are coming along. In terms of spending, there's all sorts of stuff that's happening. Of course, the Lightning Network is, you know, I'm not going to say it's as good as it's going to get, but, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's going to buggy on that NVK, I keep going to Francis. I mean, it's, it's, it's like, it's getting closer as good as it's going to get. I think we're like kind of like reaching the limits of the protocol specs.

There's of course some stuff that, you know, L2 or whatever that could be added. And then, you know, we've also evolved as a wallet ecosystem towards what we call like the graduated wallet system. So that's like using some kind of other protocol to hold the Bitcoin non-custodially or semi-custodially or custodially on your wallet. and be interoperable with lightning. So that's like cashew, fettiment, liquid network, spark, and arc. So all of these things are kind of like, there's like an ebullition, like a lab going on where all of these solutions are coming up. And then of course, like the really interesting stuff also is like as NVK said,

like the smart contracts, the spending policies, stuff for inheritance or for recovery or for like kidnappings, which has been possible. on Bitcoin for like a long time. No, Francis froze for a second there. But before I dive into the tech and kind of get a little more nuanced exactly what we have available, the tools that are working there, Ben, I'm just kind of curious. Is there anything that you see that you're missing in basically your day-to-day operations? What are you looking for in your Bitcoin stack? Yeah.

I mean, Francis was outlining a ton of the stuff that I would echo, right? Like there's all these great things that have come out and that are have been available for a little bit or at least are now becoming accessible to a new person to begin to play with. I think the key point here is in and around UI, U.S. and aggregating them into a simple package. So, you know, where Francis is talking about aggregated wallets where you have all of these different kind of systems working in the background and kind of. kind of obfuscated, so it just works for the end user. And he touched on hot wallets, cold wallets, multi-sig, privacy, being able to do inheritance, all this kind of stuff. It's how many different tools and how many different interfaces and like putting it

all together as an individual user right now, unless you're somebody like me that's dicking around with this stuff all the time, it can be very confusing to try and navigate it, but we're starting to see it kind of aggregate in neat little packages. And it's not there yet, but I can see where it's going. And I know the pieces are there. And now it's just simplifying and aggregating it together. And that's what I want to see. I want the, you know, I want what bull wallet's doing where it's like, oh, my hot wallet is easy. My cold wallet is easy. And I can start to manage things in a singular fashion where I don't need to hop around and I can just kind of use my wallet with BTC pay server and

it like it's it all just works so that's what I'm looking for that's what I'm beginning to see and that's where I'm pretty excited that's awesome no on that point quickly MVP I just want to say that like with regards to having everything going kind of all in one spot and simplify it those are my favorite things about what francis did with the bowl wallet because rather than having to have my liquid lightning and my cold card on mobile in a different spot I got it all aggregated in one area which just makes life easier. NVK? Yeah. So, so like, that's like ultimately, like always a tradeoff, right? Like, the challenge is this. Like, can we as Coin Kite create a fully integrated app, desktop app, they integrate to the harder wallet, right? And make the experience be something

that like, you know, like the grandmother that doesn't exist can use. Right. Like, sure, we can. But like, what are we giving up doing that, right? Like, essentially like now the user is fully trusting us, right? because we can do all kinds of shenanigans if the harder wallet is the same vendor as the app wallet, for example, right? Like, it's full trust. Sure, the hardware wallet is signing something

you can check on the screen, but like the amount of trust you're doing that is insane, right? And then there is all the stuff that the problem is the apps, like they're selling a lot of telemetry back to the wallet, back to the companies, right? So PubCo creates a very easy to use phone wallet, you know, maybe they are not recording the ex-pub or recording the addresses,

but their marketing team probably is. They don't even know their marketing team is sending all that information back to them, right? So there is like all this sort of like issues or the information gets leaked, right? So that's why it's so important that like, you know, for the very people, very few people who are lucky enough

that we will have full UTXOs, which we have to be honest about that. Like, you know, it's not going to be everybody. The amount of people in the world that can have full UTXOs, it's small, right? and it will always be small. There's only 21 million. And, you know, 2% of the world, like,

a basis point of the world's population is going to have 99% of all the BTC, right? That's just how wealth distribution works, right? So when you start actually counting the UTXOs, it's surprisingly a small amount. So the people who are lucky enough to have it, like, you know, they should take their responsibility, you know, like go on BTC sessions,

learn how to do this stuff, right? Right. Like, there is no alternative to learning. Because if you are fully, fully outsourcing their responsibility to like a single vendor, right? You are the single vendor's mercy, right? Like they're benevolent. So I think it's very important to continue like, you know, like pushing for like separate vendors doing different parts of the transaction sort of process, right? The custody process.

I think it's like everybody wins. Everybody keeps each other's honest. And we can't fall for the fud of the single vendor solutions will say, oh, no, like seeds are bad. You know, like, seeds are not bad. I mean, like, you can keep 12 words safe. You know, like it's not that hard, right? Like people keep a bar code safe at home, right? They can keep 12 words safe.

You know, does it require some responsibility? Absolutely, right? But if you don't have that seed, now you're at the mercy of that vendor, right? Like, you know, you can't recover. Like, you know, say big key, for example, you cannot recover without them helping it. It's impossible, right? You're stuck on their system, right? And it's a pub code.

So, you know, today is a benevolent, like, CEO. Tomorrow may not be, right? Like, we don't know, you know, and then you're stuck with their shit. So I think, I think it's still, like, it's still early enough that we can steer people to have, like, what I call open standard self-custody, right? Vendor independent, you know, because, like, you don't like. you don't like cold card, like, fine. Like move your seeds to a different harder wallet, you know? Go to the, like, it's your sort of like, right, let's put it this way, right?

And I think we really need to push for that kind of like open standard kind of setup. Agreed. I think that's the way to go. You mentioned at the very beginning. Francis, are we getting silent payment support there on the bullwalt there as well too? And the NVK, if I'm not mistaken, silent payments would be supported by the edge firmware on cold card. Yeah, we're working on that. I can't remember right now the state of it.

We want to, if I remember right, the issue is the ECDH part of it that we don't support. We would need to add that signature part that is not, that's not a standard Bitcoin signature, right? So we need to do that extra calculation for you, right? Unless you're, if you're just passing as a standard transaction to sign because you already know, that's fine. but anyways, so we're figuring out if we can do that, support that. But honestly, like, I think for silent payments, like phone custody, so for your spending money, it's way more suited for that, right? So, like, you have a few thousand bucks on your phone.

That's your sort of like checking account, let's put it this way. Like, then, you know, like, who cares? Like, the city's on the phone. You're perfectly fine. It's backed up on your cloud or split or whatever, right? Like, it's not in the world if you lose it. And you can use their silent payments, you can mix it, you do whatever you need with that. Beautiful. Yeah, Francis, for even one that might not be familiar, too, can you give us a little bit of rundown?

Because I know we already have asynchronous pay join on the bull wallet, which to me, I think it's BIP 7-7, feels way underutilized. But for people that are looking for privacy, because I'm getting those questions all the time, what's coming with silent payments? What are silent payments? And you touch on asynchronous pay join as well. Yeah, so silent payments is a really interesting and sophisticated piece of technology. So one of the problems in Bitcoin, the best way to de-anomize yourself is address reuse. And address reuse would be something like I have a donation address on my website,

and it's just like a static Bitcoin address. And of course, if anybody copies that address and puts it on like a Mempool Explorer or more nefariously, like a chain analysis system, you'll be able to see the total amounts received and sent from that address. People do reuse address for a bunch of things. like a lot of people have like a single withdrawal address on their exchange.

A lot of the exchanges actually force you to kind of like have a whitelisted Bitcoin address for withdrawals. It can also be like mining pool payouts that are done to the same address. So reusing your address is really bad. It's like, you know, when people talk about like the state of privacy in Bitcoin, literally just like address reuse is like a massive, massive problem. the problem with that address reuse solves is that it's asynchronous. So like if I want to receive payments from a bunch of people,

I don't want to have to send them a new Bitcoin address like every single time. You know what I mean? Like especially not with donations because you don't even know who's donating you the money. And silent payments is a really cool technology where you basically have like one static address and that's your public facing deposit address.

That's your receiving address. But every time someone sends, money to that address, they actually derive themselves a new address from that address so that the person who sends you the money only knows about that single address. And that address, you can't put it on the blockchain and figure out all the transactions that are linked to it. And it's complicated technology. It actually requires a special kind of server components.

So the reason why it hasn't been implemented by a lot of wallets is that it is complicated. But also, that's interesting because the only wallet that I know that has implemented it is cake. There's also another one. I'm so sorry I forget you guys' name, but there's Shala, fuck, what's it called? There's another wallet that has like a proof of concept. It's not like a major wallet. It's kind of like a, it's a sign-and-payment's wallet that they've built just to demo that. I know that Sparrow was working on it.

But what's cool is that because not a lot of other wallets have implemented it, we can kind of feel free to modify the spec, right? So we're not stuck in this standard. And, you know, NVK always talks about rightly so the importance of standards. The best time to modify a standard is like before it's been widely implemented. So we actually hired a guy at Bull Bitcoin like six months ago to do an R&D project, basically like figure out the best way to get silent payments, receive, and set. in the bowl wallet.

Sending from silent payments is actually really easy. It's kind of like pay join back in the day where every wallet could send with pay join, but receiving was really hard. Same thing with silent payments support. Like when you sell a wallet

that's like, oh, we support Simon payments. Most of the time, unless it's cake, it's like they can send to a silent payments address, but you can't receive to a silent payments address.

So it's like not super useful. So we're actually working on an R&D project right now, which is coming very close to fruition about a way to recede it on your mobile device that's very privacy-friendly and also resource-efficient. And that's important because in the Lightning network world, we have kind of graduated to this single address,

which is the LN address, right? So it's like really common. Like how do you zap someone? Well, you send ads to their LN address. A lot of people use L-N address is like really, really common. And that has a really nice kind of like social payments effect where, you know, in the Bitcoin jungle wallet and many wallets like primal, if I want to send money to like BTC sessions, I just type amount and BTC sessions.

That's the experience that people have with cash app, with Venmo, with all those fintechi apps. So like you have a payment name. You have like a, it's my cash tag or something. It's my pay tag. And that's the experience that like people want and people use. So my goal with the bowl wallet is to replicate. that using Noster, potentially Noster. I don't want to sprinkle Noster on something just because it's Noster.

Noster does actually kind of like make sense for that use case, where if I want to pay BTC Sessions, I'm going to send the money to add BTC Sessions. And what that's actually going to do in the back end, it's going to look up BTC Sessions as profile, fetch that silent payments code, and derive an address and send it. And that was actually, you know, invented by the Samurai guys. It's like the samurai guys had like the Payne M concept, which is not the same spec. And it's, I would call it like inferior spec because it requires a non-chain Bitcoin transaction to do a notification.

So it's like, it's not that it's spammy, but it's like it's going to be expensive. Like you have to always plan. Like any solution you develop, you have to plan it for like 100 sets per V-byte. Otherwise it's kind of LARP, you know. So, well, with the PayNM guys and what Samurai did, that was really cool, was this PayNM server where you could like pay a PayNM instead of paying a complicated code. But that also highlighted a problem with these services is that, of course, when Samurai's servers were seized by the feds, the Payneum service went offline because it was a centralized server. So that's kind of like where Noster might be a really interesting alternative to that because instead of having a centralized registry of, of Paynems, which was Samurai server,

you have a distributed registry of Payne-im. So that's kind of like the thing that I want to work on, you know, and generally the theme has always been like, try to replicate the like fintech key. Everything's automated, kind of like in the back end, and it's like fun and easy to use. And the user doesn't really see the complicated mechanics that are going, and they are complicated,

that are going on in the background. So Payne is probably, sorry, Payne-Im, Siam Payne-Paints are probably the biggest, improvement to Bitcoin because the biggest problem to Bitcoin is address reuse, right? On its own, it doesn't solve

like on-chain traceability. It solves the footguns that people are doing, which is reusing the same address every time. And it's really bad. Like even like the Pirate Bay donation address is public

and like, you know, even like... And the alternative to that sucks too, which is giving your ex-pub to a server to derail you adage. And that's, of course, of course.

And that's obviously the other alternative, which is like some exchanges and some mining pools, they'll say, hey, just give me your ex-pub, and I'll just send you a new address to a new address every time, which sells. Both is unusable too, which it's like even like also sick in nightmare. Yeah, and then of course there's like all sorts of different ex-pop standards.

You know, do I give my master ex-pub? Do I give my Z-Pub? Do I give my descriptor? Like, do I have to give like derivation information here? And then, I mean, there's also risk of like, I need to like verify the addresses to make sure it doesn't send to like another address type that I have here. So it's like, it's complicated. The UX is not great. And of course, that helps with on-chain tristability from a third-party attacker, but it exposes your entire stash to whoever

has your ex-bub. So like, of course, on bowl, we don't offer that. Like, even though it's the feature that's requested a lot, it's like, like for DCA, for example, you know, like, hey, it would be great if I gave you my ex-bub. But like, yeah, but then I have your ex-bub. And not only that, I also have your K-YC data. That's like twice as bad. I can see your entire, you know, essentially. I definitely do not want to see that information at all. Do you know if it's possible to do silent payments to Wasabi? That is a really good question. I know Sala, I know Wazabi has silent payments send support.

I don't know if they have received support. That would be amazing. That would be amazing. But like the technical challenges are like definitely, the silent payment space there's like a sub there's like a sub niche of like silent payments people and there's there's a wide variety

of techniques and strategies to implement silent payments and I think the ecosystem is like is like getting there where we have like a single standard basically you need to scan the blockchain and you need to look for something other than just addresses you need to do something

that's called tweaking and that requires a server component and like so it's not It's not trivial. But I expect Sparrow and Wasabi to release something sooner than later. Electrum is obviously kind of a candidate. I'm assuming the Electrum guys have thought about it. I haven't checked, but I'm kind of like assuming,

and then there's cake, and then there's wool. And whether these wallets are interoperable, still to be determined, you know, every, it's not silos. Like there's group chats and there's stuff going on, you know. the devs tend to talk to each other in like private signal. There's no like silent payments organization, unlike pay join. Yeah, there is a pay join work. We at the open stats fund them.

Right. So what PayJoin did really, really well, really well is they treated pay join like an app, like a product, right? So they have a foundation. They have a leader. Dan Gold. And Dan treats Pay Join. like a company almost.

You know, he has like development sprints. He has goals. He has KPIs and metrics. He, he coordinates the implementation with all the other wallets. So like if cake and bowl are not talking to each other, like Dan is making sure that we're talking to him and that we're talking to each other to be compatible.

So it's, it's a much more like, I don't want to say corporate, but I want to say like, it's a much more like adult. It's a good way to keep the standard, like, 100%

you know, so you can have a SPAC. Yeah, and of course, like cake and bowl are still incompatible because we're still using different versions

of PayJoin and both of, both of our wallets needs to upgrade to the new standards that the PayJoint Foundation has been working on. So pay join is like really great.

PageOn actually, I don't want to overstay the privacy benefits of pay join because I don't want people to think like if I'm using pay join, It's like if I'm coin joining. Well, you are technically coin joining,

but you're not like wazabi coin joining. We're just making transactions more private. You're making transactions like more private. What's really interesting about pay join is that the network, if we start to pay join a lot, what happens actually is that from a network perspective, chain analysis becomes unreliable. That's a really important thing about.

pay join. So like if 5% is kind of like the the number that we've been talking about, if 5% of people use pay join, that means that the chain analysis system stop working. Because chain analysis works what we call using heuristics. Juristics are like assumptions about things that we know are true in the Bitcoin network. And what we know is true is that if you see a transaction that has a bunch of of inputs and a bunch of outputs, the inputs belong to the same person. And that's like a heuristic that the chain analysis used to construct their analysis. And if that is no longer true, then the entirety of the analysis, based on that, is mistaken and it's false. And there are

implications for that legally. Because if we can demonstrate that the heuristics are wrong, then the analysis which may lead to a false conviction or a false warrant is actually based on incorrect information. So pay join is one thing. Silent payments is one thing. A bunch of little niche other stuff. You know, on the network level, there's, you know, the problem of network level privacy is being worked on with a bunch of projects like the BDK people are working on something. I believe is called Kyoto. And that's a client-side-firm. filtering way to

curate the blockchain, which kind of like was Abby kind of like pioneered with like BIP 157. There's something

called Floresta, which is kind of like a light client on your notes. Instead of collecting to an external electron server, you're running

this like very tiny lightweight, you know, system on your phone. So there's a bunch of stuff being worked on in privacy. Also funded by

open swap. What was that, NVK? Also funded by open Sats. Also funny by open sets. Like half of the stuff is probably by OpenSat. Coin Kite has been in the game for years creating hands down the best and most secure

hardware when it comes to securing your Bitcoin. The cold card Q is an absolute powerhouse and my daily driver and it's ideal for newcomers and advanced users alike. The Tapsiner gives you a low-cost, user-friendly option for those just getting started or for convenience when track. You can head to coin kite.com and use code BTC sessions for discounts or simply scan the QR code on the screen to get started right away. One company I like pointing people to when they ask about Bitcoin mining is abundant mines. They were founded by Bo and Christine Turner after losing over half a million dollars to broken promises in the mining industry.

And they built their hosting model to remove the usual headaches. With abundant mines, you own your machines and keep 100% of the Bitcoin you, mind. There's no revenue share, no hidden skims. Pricing is simple. One flat monthly fee covers power, parts, labor, and repairs. They also guarantee uptime. If a machine goes down, their hash rate redirect system routes hash power from their fleet, so earnings don't just stop, and every machine is insured at full replacement value. Everything is hosted in the U.S., powered by hydro, and mining equipment may qualify for 100% your one bonus depreciation. Learn more at abundant minds.com slash sessions.

Before, Ben, I want to get your input in just a second here, but before I do that, I actually want to highlight and jump back to something super quick. NVK, you were talking about how awesome it would be to have silent payments received to Wasabi. For anyone that might not be familiar, why would that be awesome? What's happening there? So the main thing is like, let's say you want to, to like receive your company shopping cart into wasabi, right? Because see, like even like tax compliant, like not talk about

like block breaking, anything like that, right? The issue is this. You receive payments in Bitcoin in your shopping cart, right? Like on chain. And then if you go take that to like, you know, like earn your income or pay a payment provide, like a service provider or somebody else, everybody in that chain has too much visibility in the other party. There is almost like a direct chain between them. It's not great. And also, you know, your service provided might know how much you have if they do some digging. You know, it's not great.

And it's not good for your personal security too, right? Because if somebody knows how much money you have, they might want to rob you harder. Right. So now here's the issue, right? Like your shopping cart normally will use an ex-pub for that you set up a specific wallet for your shopping cart, right? And you have an ex-pub. And then that server is going to be generating new addresses, right? And then you have to consolidate that into Wasabi because, you know, Wasabi cannot give its Ex-Pub.

Otherwise, you will de-anonymize every single receipt, right? Yeah. So you'll be really cool if there was a dynamic way for a server to, generate a new wasabi address for you to receive in wasabi and that be your sort of like your operational account right to then send it into like you know code storage treasury into your you know loan accounts whatever you're going to use after that right like a business normally has like you know five 10 different wallets to have different purposes right but having that sort of like anonymizing layer in is huge and then maybe even go into your like like your

next checking account that may be also wasabi where you can pay your payment providers with like a lot more anonymity right a lot more privacy um but yeah like there is this gap where it's like what's your alternative like maybe you generate like you know like a hundred addresses on wasabi and you give it to service provider well that's not great either because they could de anonymize you too right um so just something to that they'll be very helpful. Yeah. And of course, it's kind of like what, what I think you said in the beginning where for silent payments, like the way that it's probably going to be used is I had a silent payments address on my phone and I received a bunch of payments and then I'm going to send them to my cold card like once I've reached a certain

amount. And because in Bitcoin, there's a fundamental tradeoff between like a cost and privacy. because if you have a bunch of small UTXOs and you don't touch them and the fees go to like 100 stat per byte in the future, let's say I'm a merchant and I receive like $100, $100 payments. I have $10,000. And then I want to move that $10 grand to a cold card,

but the fees are 100 stats per byte. I'm going to pay that fee for every one of the inputs. So I'm going to pay $1,000,000.000. of dollars to move my funds to QuillCard. So you want to aggregate your UTXOs periodically. But in the case of silent payments, it's like, all right, so I have a bunch of donors that are donating money to my silent payments address. They have no idea who the other donors are.

Like, I'm fully private. But the moment that I consolidate them, they can see who the other donors are. And if you wanted to use Wasabi and if Wasabi doesn't use silent payments, then you would need to spend each of these UTXOs individually to a new wasabi address and then coin join to get the privacy, which is like, I mean, you know, a kind of like hardcore maxi would say like, yeah, no big deal. Like you just do that.

But I know, it's like, dude, like, you know, I run a business. I have better shit to do than managing UTXOs to that. Like 100%. It's like you can't like. And also like the volume, right, if you're running a shopping car, we're talking about thousands of transactions per day. Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, the stuff, we need computers to do the work.

Yeah. And like off chain, that problem is pretty much already solved, right? Because like when you use lightning, sure, your public node ID is revealed in the Bolt 11. But still, like, I can receive like 100 lightning payments and then I can swap that somewhere else and like peg out to the main chain and that's not linked. Or, you know, kind of like the bolts atomic swap strategy that kind of like a lot of the wallets are using. with lightning and liquid. So you receive a bunch of lightning payments. They're converted to liquid, and then you consolidate the liquid payments. They're not linked to lightning. The people who paid on lightning have no idea what that is,

and then you convert that on chain. So if you're using the layer two's, then that problem of aggregation is largely mitigated. But if you're still using on-chain payments, that problem is still there. And despite what the Noster crowd and the Bitcoin crowd,

wants to believe people are definitely using on-chain payments. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, dude, like, dude, like, what is it? Between 30 and 60% of our revenue is on-chain Bitcoin payments. Yeah, of course. For the last one to two cents per V-Bite right now.

More. I mean, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you use on-chain payments? If you're not aware of the privacy implications, like, and, and, like, I don't know how much of our transaction volume I would say something probably like 85%

probably now is on chain because liquid has actually grown quite a bit. I think we're doing more liquid than lightning right now because of the wallet integration. But it's still large it's still like largely largely on chain.

So like on chain privacy is definitely important. And like a combination of coin join plus silent payments combined absolutely solves that at at a cost, but it does actually solve that for the foreseeable future. That's awesome.

I love this idea, like, twofold. One, I never considered the fact like, oh, crap, I got to re-aggregate before I go to Wasabi. Otherwise, I've got to send over etch each individual one, which would be a huge pain in the ass, and that would be a major gain to have silent payments directly into Wasabi with, because basically you get to avoid doing the ex-pop kind of thing. And then the other one, too, I never even, I love, I love when I hear uses of Noster beyond the social media aspect, because I think that that really is where the power is

going to shine. And the idea of, like, I can just give you my Noster ID. And I've already got a silent payment set up there. I've got my like lightning address set up there. You're off to the races. That seems really powerful. I have a controversial take on the nostril. Oh, do it.

Stuck. Do it and then I'll get Ben's take. Here comes the wet blanket. So the problem with Noster is that like essentially like everything is public. Okay. And the current private messaging on Nostre do not use whatever you do. Okay, because there's no forward privacy. And I think the biggest mistake that people made since the early sort of like adoption of Noster, which is normal, is to have persistent identity.

See, what we want is disposable identity with some method of like coordination and rendezvous so that you can give a new identity, right? Like, think in terms of this, like, one of the most new used features that there is is Apple hide my mind. email. Yeah. Right. Everybody taps, hide my email. Like, Apple literally made a default now when you try to create a new account on a new website, right, hide my email.

Why? Because, see, you want to minimize your network graph to outsiders, right? So you don't want them to link that email with the other account that you have in a different website, right? Because when the hackers go and that's how they start finding stuff. So what we really need on Noster is disposable. identity, right, with an easy way to generate those disposable identity so that you can have some reasonable sort of programmatical control over it, right? And then you use that to sort of seed

how you receive payments from other people, right? So sure, you can use like, yeah, send it to NVK at whatever I have right now at primal.net, right? That's going to work because the lightning wall is there. That's fine. But you forego a lot of privacy on that. That's why, like, I never. really liked the login with Noster too much is because like those log in with Noster should have been like disposable IDs baked in by default, right? We'll get there.

Could you do something NVK like a higher risk of deterministic wall? Like could you use some sort of like BIP 85 for your like Master K on Noster? There was a NIP that never got adopted to do that. That would be like one great solution. The only problem with that is that there is no forward privacy, right?

Whoever has the the secret can find all your stuff. So it's not amazing, especially when you're talking about, like, identity. Identity is tricky, you know, because identity is going to have, like, communication. And communication can only leak once, right? Yeah, so.

Fair enough. Yeah, but, you know, but again, like there is protocols, right? So, like, white noise, right? White noise resolves a lot of the forward privacy problems. They still don't have disposable identity, but at least, you know, if you kill certain keys, that conversation is no longer available, right? You know, it's moving.

It's like these things are going, but I feel like there is like in the early days of Bitcoin, like people would go in a room, right, and sort of like argue with each other about these problems and try to solve them because he had a market, which was like dark markets and casinos, which like these are real users, you know, who have real problems and real, you know, needs. Now it's more like a lot of the development is like based on the sort of like personas that people that don't actually use the system sort of build. Like you have a lot of these UX people that come in and they're like, oh look, I build this persona. You know, like, you know, I pull it out of my ass. They're like, you know, there's this grandma. You know, and grandma wants

to coin join. You know, and grandma wants to buy big chickens on the internet. Right. Like, these are not realistic uses, right? I think people need to like go and like, you know, call a BTC sessions and Francis and talk to them for hours on end of like all the people that actually hits them on the DMs that have needs in different countries, different circumstances, right? And sort of like solve those, those issues, like not trying to fit a tack to a problem, right? Finding a tech to solve the problem. Of course.

And like the way the standards are developed is the same way that, you know, you develop BBQR, which is like, this is the one that I'm going to use and like other people will use it or not use it. And for example, in the case of Nost, it was really interesting, by the way, because we actually had a guy right now from Bull that's at the, at the Nostra boot camp in in Madera, and the topic is identity. And we are definitely working on a BIP 85 throwaway identity system, specifically for a few reasons. First of all, for silent payments, because you're totally right. Like, if I'm, you know, if I have like a public donation address, I should have a a different silent payment address for the exchange,

for the mining pool, for a bunch of shit. And there is no reason at all why you would reuse your identity for DMs across different people, right? Especially on White Noise. Like, when I, when I meet NVK in person, I'm like, hey, like, contact me on White Noise. Like, this is my, this is my public key.

That public key should be just for NVK. Like, there's no reason why it would be for, unless it's like, you know, a public, obviously, public like anybody in the web can DM me. And we've solved that with Bitcoin with two things, with the BIP 32 and with BIP 85. So there's absolutely no reason why we cannot add that to Noster. So throwaway, like Bitcoin addresses are throwaway addresses.

And Noster addresses can and should be throwaway addresses. And of course, like, yeah, like if if like the bull wallet was to introduce Noster for receiving payments, I'm not even sure. sure if I would even allow adding your, your nostril key. I think I would force, I think I would, I think I would, I would force you like, hey, we've just generated a nostary key pair for you to advertise a silent payment address. And it's now you're called Nathan ad bull bitcoin.combe, or something like that. You know, the dream is like, imagine if you went to a bank and you say, here is my passport to

open a bank account. And they say, no, sir, we don't want your passport. I don't want to know who you are. That's the experience you want. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I love it. Ben, what are your thoughts on all this, man? Yeah, I mean, I think I've got some questions around this.

So let's go back a little bit. Francis, you're talking about silent payments, utilizing Noster in and around that. Would this, from a user perspective, to kind of query this, is this a manual action on the, users part like inputting like a silent payments address there that would then be queried? Or is this kind of like the, you know, like I've seen cashew and stuff like that.

It's like, oh, you can just check your Noster profile with this Cashew wallet and you might have money there already you don't know about. Like is it manual or is it naturally occurring? Well, it's kind of like today when you're verifying your Noster identity on Nostrolet, using Napo 5 or like connecting your your lightning address. Definitely that should be automated, right? So for example, like you set up, you set up a site, like imagine this. Like it's like activate silent payments.

Okay. Do you want to add a username for the silent payment address? Yeah, sure. I want to add BTC sessions. All right, great. Where do you want to register this? Like, and it doesn't have to be Noster. It can be also like there's BIP 353, which is like DNS records.

There's there's Noster. and it could be, it could also be like a centralized bull Bitcoin server that's just literally like, like, pay name, like a centralized server, whatever it is. And then, okay, so I want to use Noster, I want to use DNS or I want to use the Bull Bitcoin server, whatever. Or I want to use my own server. I want to do my own proof, you know? So I think like the easiest path for that is just like, okay, you offer some kind of like default thing, which is, all right, we're going to, we're going to do the domain proof. It's going to be BTC sessions at BullBitcoin. pay, kind of like all the, you know, like prime all the. It's like at primal.net and like Ordanus, it's kind of like preset, but you can just like do your own thing.

There's no there's no reason for that. And like when I'm querying the network, whether it's DNS records or whether it's the Bull Bitcoin server API or whether it's the Nostr network, I'll just be like, I want to pay add BTC sessions. It will pull that. The other problem that we have in Noster is like I can register at BTC sessions. Yeah. Right?

So how do I prove that I am at BTC sessions? Well, maybe I've actually done like a DNS record on Noster, linking my Noster key to this DNS record. So, all right, whatever, whoever has BTCSessions.com, like, I'm pretty sure that that BTC session owns BTCSessions.com. But then again, we're using the centralized DNS registry, right? Which is managed by ICANS. It's like capitulation.

You know, like, you know, Corallo, like, I've said this to him many times. It's like, you know, like DNS hacks are great and I'll love you a long time. But like, you know, like, no, it's like full capitulation. Like, because it progressively much worse, right? Like you cannot do self-sign certificates anymore. The browser says, oh, you can't access this website. It's danger, danger, right? So it's actually a fucking disaster.

So like, let's not go there. Let's not build on top of their, you know, their. So, MVP, you know, when you're hilarious, so we actually have a decentralized DNS R&D project at Bull because one of our guys is a researcher. And what's really, what's really funny is that after doing a lot of research, what is the most decentralized DNS system that we have today? What do you think, MVP? Sorry, say that again. What is the most decentralized DNS system that we have in the world right now? email

name coin name coin so it's really ironic because I know but the sad part is that like you know those projects like they were very early right like it was like okay just so people know Ethereum started okay

because Vitalik couldn't get his wobble gobble stuff merged into name coin which was colored coins at the time so color coins was all about just like, you know, using a UTXO, right, with this extra stuff, right? But then he needed the extra gobble, gobble, right, for the scammy. And, you know, Bitcoin is just like, no, right? We can't do that.

So, you know, like, it is surprisingly how color coins then became, I know, RGB and Namecoin and all this stuff, like, is usable. Name coin really never happened because, like, this. The guys that were around, they squattered all the name brands. So like, it's like, we're like, okay, we were going to use coin. Well, somebody bought it. And the guy wants, you know, a gazillion dollars. Well, okay, well, no.

Then it never took off. And like, I don't want to relitigate, like, the 2017 debate about, like, app coins and using blockchains for shit. By the way, there is an anti-squadding mechanism in name coin. You have to pay to keep the domain alive. But the premise of these blockchains is that like there is a cost to to like buying the domain and like the thing is name coin is worthless. Right. So there is no actual cost to that.

Like I can squat. I don't know how much a name coin is worth, but I don't know. Like I can I can squat all the name coin domains for like a million dollars a year or something. So if I'm like a motivated state attacker that wants to squat all that shit. And of course like there's shit coin. So you don't want to touch that. So there is like, you know, now we're kind of like shifting to like identity and like decentralized identity. But it's still relevant to Bitcoin in a way where identity is linked to payments, right?

With the silent payment stuff. You never link payments to identity. I mean, you need to know what you're paying. And like it's either I ask you for payment instructions or I find payment instructions on the internet. I mean, there's only two ways to go about this. I never quite understood the hard on that people have for not having multiple identity. Like, what's the problem? It's like it's not like a huge deal.

Like you have multiple emails. You know, you give different emails to different people. Like it's not exactly like, you know, like this huge challenge to tell people where to send you the money. Right. Like it's nice to have like, you know, a way in which you don't have to generate an address every time. But like I can still have more. targeted sort of like sub identities, right, that are used for different things. And ideally, they're like last doxy, right, in nature. So, you know, so for example, you don't go like,

you know, first name. Last Name at Gmail.com like everybody did, you know, 20 years ago. No, I agree. Sessions, I want to know what other questions you got, but I just want to point out too. So Namecoin, in case you guys are looking to buy some domains here, is 95 cents. It's done it. Okay, so I was just thinking through kind of this flow that we've been talking about, being able to do things like silent payments and link it into wasabi and all of that. And I'm thinking of my own, you know, what I've got going on right now versus what I could have going on. And so there's kind of two different trajectories here.

The thing that Francis, you were talking about, aggregating on layer two. so that you don't have a bunch of tiny UTXOs when you swap over to on-chain. And that's a, you know, a huge thing that I love about using the bull wallet, being able to show people good habits inherently just as they're stacking stats into like an instant payments wallet and then saying, okay, it gets up to this point, you know, swap it over to on-chain and maybe it's linked to your cold card in bull wallet. And that's, it just makes the flow nice and simple. But then there's also, you know, that gives some inherent privacy there just in, in the swap function.

But, you know, what about linking in, you know, some sort of my payment infrastructure. And so, you know, what might that look like with the integration of perhaps down the road being able to swap into, you know, I'm getting paid and I swap into a silent payments address that is linked to Wasabi that ends up at the end of the day on my cold card, which I can see in Bull. Like, are there ways to string that together to kind of maximize that privacy there? So that requires was like if Wasabi was able to implement silent payments receiving address, that would be the flow, right? So you would import your cold card into Wasabi as.

an external wallet, you would automate the coin join in a way that's triggered when the fees are low, for example. So, like, you would make sure that you're not coin joining when the fees are really high. Fees are actually a wave. So, like, at some point, the fees will be, like, fully always high. Like, but there are a wave. Right now, they're like just always low. But, you know, over time it goes up and down. So, so you would program them, you know, the OG Bitcoiners know, no, it's Sunday evenings.

You know, Sunday evenings, like the fees are low. it's like pretty much a science at this point. And then you could string that along. So it's like these are things where it's like app developers need to implement shit and then eventually the whole flow just magically comes together. I'll give you another example. For example, like we don't have lightning address to pour inbound on the bowl wallet on bolts. That's because there's a piece of infrastructure missing.

You know, there's a piece of infrastructure where you need to have a special kind of Ellen address server, which instead of generating a new Bolt 11, it calls a Bolt's API. And it gets that. I mean, that's actually not. Like, if I had other shit to do, which like we're just really busy, but like that's something that that is solvable. Like these are, these are like, these are like app level infrastructure. And like that's where the shit corners get it wrong, you know, because and like the alt corners

and the protocol people getting wrong. It's like, stop thinking about like, oh, we should add ring signatures. to Bitcoin. I mean, that's just never going to happen. Like, these things are not going to happen. But it doesn't mean that the privacy is not going to get better because a bunch of companies can come together and be like, we can develop an app infrastructure, call it a meta protocol layer like silent payments is a protocol that works on Bitcoin and that in the

day-to-day use of the Bitcoin protocol, like provides that level of obfuscation. So to answer your question directly, we're not far from that. Like, you know, like, for example, like, let's say that I have nothing to do. Like, I quit bull Bitcoin and someone gives me like $200,000 or something, right? I have a little budget. It's nothing massive. Here, wink, open sets. I can, I feel like, you know, I could, I could like be like, all right, let's, let's fucking hire a dev and let's add silent payments to Wasabi.

It's not, oh, it's not that hard. As we were on the show, I asked on Twitter if there was, um, Any work being done on Wasabi Sorry, silent payments into wasabi, there is a pool request. There you go, right? There you go.

You know, and then... It's happening. The things that have need. See, this is the thing. The things that have demand will get resolved. Yeah. People just have to have patience.

Yeah. The things that don't have demand don't get resolved, like lightning. And before, and like, there was like a state of privacy where, you know, people used to say like nobody really cares about privacy that much, blah, blah, blah. But there's something that changed, actually. There's something that changed recently in the last two years

where the mindset around privacy is a lot different, which is the kidnappings in Europe. Yes. And the kidnappings in Europe, for those of you who don't know what's going on, the stats are so insane that they're hard to believe but I think there's like one kidnapping every four days on average in France that's related to

Oh, I mean yeah I know it And the thing is like people are getting like great It's like Europe is like a fucking disaster right It's definitely going to add crypto to your like you know Pile of problems living in Europe Leave you right And so what's happening is while the price of Bitcoin is going up So there's you know this new

Target which is like oh wait like we can kidnap a Bitcoin now so there's that thing because it's fungible right like they can just take the money like and they send it to the to the gang Bitcoin is the best money why do you think

why do you think all the scammers want Bitcoin what do you think all the fraudsters want Bitcoin is because it's the best money right of course and like it's the same reason why the drug dealers wanted Bitcoin and the same reason why everybody wants Bitcoin is going to buy more Bitcoin yeah exactly 100%.

So there's that and then there's the other thing which is like the the centralized of data collection is becoming really, really, really bad. So data is more centralized. There's more privacy leaks. Dude, like, in the, you know, your, your, your, your identity is leaked in like so many places. Now it's like, I saw this meme on the internet where it's like, when you do your K.C, there's like, it's either upload your passport or scan privacy leaks for your, we might already have your passport anyway, you know, because like everybody's password is a leak.

Yeah, I refuse doing that. Just seek a, I know it's going to be more work. but you know, find a different service provider that's willing to do the KYC differently. Maybe it's by paper. Maybe it's because, you know, they can do it in paper. You can go to their office. We do it on paper.

So we do it on paper. Like, you know, photocop your driver license. And like, of course, like, so by the way, we do do that. And I think it's about one in three or one in four person does not go through the like the automated KYC stuff, which is also deleted by, I don't want to show the privacy stuff. But, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, quite bad. So the arguments, the political arguments for privacy is actually a lot easier for us.

So Bull Beacon is actually a European company. We're actually pretty big in Europe now. Like, it's getting close to like how big we're in Canada, especially in France. Oh, I hope it gets become the bigger one in Europe soon. Yeah. We're definitely on the way there. Like it's growing at a very, very insane rate. And then Europe is obviously very anti-privacy, which is super ironic given their privacy laws, GDPR, is like the strictest privacy law in the world. But they also have, you know, like a deep state. Europe has a mega deep state and a massive,

I would call them like evil reptilian bureaucracy, really. It's even worse than the states. They're being too kind. Way worst. Yeah, they're really, really bad. So you have this like weird duality where it's like a human, they're all for human rights, but also they're like four of my surveillance. And like the arguments for privacy are getting much easier to make for us,

much easier because back in the day was like, well, you know, either you're hiding your money because you're trying to evade taxes or you're laundering money or you're selling drugs. And then the argument of like, well, I don't want my wife to know about that. That's like a reasonable argument. Like, I don't want my wife to know about how much money I have. And like, I also don't want like the bicycle shop to know that I have a stack of 11 bitcoins when I'm buying a $3,000 bicycle, you know. But now it's like, well, what if the bicycle shop is actually friends with a guy in the in the Moroccan mafia? That's right. Yep.

And they are. And they are. You know, also, you know, don't buy basic. The North African mafia is huge. And they're after your bitcoins. And like these things are not like super sophisticated state level effects. It's literally just that. Right.

It's like, lightning is really good for purchases with privacy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I got to interject quickly there.

If you're a homeowner and you want more Bitcoin, Horizon just opened a whole new door. Most of your wealth is locked in your house. growing a few percent per year, while Bitcoin has historically grown far faster. Horizon lets you convert a portion of your home's future value directly into Bitcoin without taking a loan. No monthly payments, no interest, no term limits. You stay in your home and you fully control and custody your Bitcoin. There's no forced liquidation, no margin calls, and no income requirement. You unlock tax-free cash today, and Horizon simply receives an agreed-upon share of your home's future appreciation when you sell or refinance.

Hundreds of homeowners are already doing this in over 21 states. So go to joinhorizon.com and see your Bitcoin potential in about 90 seconds. Turn your home into a personal Bitcoin treasury with Horizon. If you're the kind of Bitcoiner who doesn't trust convenience, cloud backups or leaving anything to chance, Dirty Man Safe was built for you. This underground physical storage is for the most paranoid self-custy setups designed to protect and hide seed phrases, hardware, critical documents, and more. Rugged, weather-resistant, and built-to-disappear, Dirty Man Safe as a last line fail-safe

to your Bitcoin security model. Head to Dirtymansafe.com and use code BTC sessions for 10% off. I got to interject quickly there. Lightning is really great for purchases with privacy. And speaking of companies coming together and working together, Francis, can you help NVK set up lighting on coin kite? Because that still drives me insane that I can't use it. Yeah. Well, okay, so here's the problem. Lightning doesn't work.

Okay? Merchantside. All right. If I, if I like, essentially if I start a lightning company, I can do lightning. But I want to be a hardware manufacturer. I don't want to be a lightning company. This is the main problem right now. We tried.

We tried using every single lightning service provider that there is. As soon as there is a little bit of volume, they cannot handle. Everything breaks. Everything is glued with like chill gum. Seriously, it is like, it is fantastic. If you're like a consultant, you know, you're accepting a bit of Bitcoin your BTC pay server, sure. That's great. You know, if you want to send like zaps and feed chickens on the internet, that's okay.

But without using a KYC fully sort of like a big grown-up company on lightning, it is not possible to do self-custodial lightning for volume without becoming a lightning expert. I mean, okay, so first of all, like, we don't manage the lightning noted bowl. It just kind of like manages itself. And we do get a lot of lightning payments. So, of course, you're going to say, and you're right, that like, we are lightning experts. So. But you do in and out, right?

We do only inbound. That's true. That's true. It's inbound only. So we essentially have to, we have to essentially see that node with like the total amount of Bitcoin we expect for that channel to be used for inbound only. It's a nightmare. Have you looked at what is the Bolt's client? No.

So we've tried them all. Okay. Have you tried both clients? The current one we're going to try now. is MDK. We are in talks with them. They're essentially a wrapper for FinXD. We had PhoenixD running our servers.

It was not possible to do payouts on chain with some volume by yourself, by the way. Just not possible. And the main problem with the MDK right now is that is Node only. We will never run Node on a server. Because that's how you get hacked.

So they're working on making an SDK or or a RAST API that doesn't require node. And we're going to try that. I mean, would there be any, and sorry, Francis, I'll let you jump in after this too, but just to see it a little bit. It's a very interesting observation.

Again, it's a very different use case and need than like what I and Ben have, right? And it's a different scale. And I even consider that just basically one way inbound traffic. Would this be, like, is there any other possible scaling solution that might be able to better facilitate, something like ARC? So I don't, like, I mean, you know,

arc is still concept, still playing around. Like, we need grown-up tools, because we have a live store, right? Like, it's like, I can't, this is the main problem. Like, I can't just, like, experiment in some shit because, like, you know, like, I have to do other shit. Like, you know, I don't want to hire, like, 10 people to run, like, payments for us. I want payments providers to charge me 1, 2%, and handle it. Yeah, fair.

Francis? In terms of, like, tools that we have now. And, you know, I don't want to disagree with NVK because it's like, it's obviously not easy to do that at scale. And, like, NVK is, like, NVK is. He's also right that we have ins and outs, so it does balance out pretty much, you know, magically. There are tools though that, and it's still to NVK's point, which is you kind of like have to patch them together. And you don't have to be an expert, but you have to patch them together. And there's two things that make me bullish on that.

The first one is that it actually is becoming a lot easier with AI to patch that shit together and to deploy it. So, you know, the thought was like, oh, well, only a gray beard can run C-Lightening and automate the lighting management. We ran C-Lightening. It was not viable. Like, it's unfinished. Like, that's the way, essentially like every time.

I mean, we've done like 100. I mean, we run to like everything. We fucking tried everything. We even had a fucking liquid node like in our own servers. Like, we tried everything. Okay. And we, we are the gray beards that go and fucking read the code. and we port the shit from Linux to FreeBSD.

We do the whole work. But the problem is we always arrive at this thing where it's like, great, it's unfinished. It's like it's missing this last thing. And then we go to the project maintainers, we go, guys, it's not doing this last thing. Oh, yeah, sorry. Okay, guys, it's not there.

You know, because again, like, everybody's focused on people sanding each other money like cash out of them, right? Like, which is fair. It's a fantastic use case, but it's not a merchant use case. I mean, if it's, if it's run by a centralized custodial system, it definitely works.

Because, of course, like, you know, Bitcoin Jungle works. Centralized payments are amazing. And, like, you know, Bitcoin Jungle works, you know, and it works flawless. And, yeah, it's managed. It's managed by a graveyard, obviously, right? So that makes it work. That's also why, that's also, by the way,

I don't think cash who's ever going to work. just so you know, the whole, everybody can run a mint system. Because like, it sounds good on paper. Oh, there's going to be a thousand mints. It's like, yeah, have you, like, running a mint is like hard. It's like really, really hard because like if you can't send a lightning payment out, then the money is stuck in a mint. That's like fully useless.

Let me put an out call for I need the D-Gen to fork cashew and turn on accepting, funding the mint with on-chain. Why would you want to find a mint? They really don't want that for real reasons. Because, see, Lightning, you can say no for a receive, right? But you cannot, like, on chain is unconsensual receive. You can send any amount. So these mitts are going to get fat and fast.

No, but like if you, why would you want to send money to a mint, which is refusing your money on Lightning? They're just going to keep it. Now they're trying to keep the mint small, total economic value, right? So that they stay out of trouble, essentially, right? But like, I want to see some, some, like, dark, like, you know, some Thor Dijans go there and make mints. They're ginormous. I'm only selling it. I'm only selling a little bit of fentanyl.

No, no. Come on. No, we're not talking about drugs. We're talking about, like, just people selling playboys or something. I know, I know. But, like, running, if you're running a mint, you're, you know. Your money, your virtual asset service provider regardless of the demo. You're a free banker.

Yeah. I mean, in the ideal world that that's fully legal, right? So the men's have to be anonymous. The men have to be anonymous, even if they're small or big. And that's the core. You're designed very well to be anon. Yeah, the thing is, if you're anonymous, you have to trust an anonymous person on the internet. Yeah.

You know, which works great. Has worked great historically. Some will get rugged this part of life. Sessions? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the whole game. It's the same with something like fettiment.

Like, you know, you're setting up a mint. And it's like, okay, well, we need the guardians, the key holders of the multi-sig. And yeah, you get incredible privacy when you're using the e-cash system within the particular mint. And you get the privacy of the crowd when you're sending into and out of the. mint via lightning, but, you know, the, the crux of it is somebody's going to be holding the keys. If the key holders are public, then at least you know who's guarding the mint, but then so does the government. Yeah.

If the government doesn't know who's guarding the mint. Well, they're going to run mints. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, yeah, exactly. And so it just, it just becomes a, like, you know, there's the ethos of don't trust verify. But, you know, if everybody can verify who the keyholders are, then you can't trust the governments not to go and pinch them. So it's, it's the government's, I think are going to run them that they're going to try and be the person at the center of it.

You know who invented the eCashment? Guess who invented the eCashment? Chom? Like, like in production. Like who implemented the first eCashment? I don't know. The government of Canada. No.

Yeah. The rule of minutes. No. Our government is retarded. Nope. They have, well, yeah. But like, like sometimes, sometimes governments hire good people, you know, like, it's, what's it called again in VK? They sold it.

They, they, the government of Canada sold this technology. It was called, fuck. It was mint, it was mint or something like that, really. Like, it was mint. Yeah, it had a catchy name. Yeah, it had a full catchy name. It was mint. it was like a and he was like a little SD card that he had to use.

Yeah, yeah. And like someone that we know, by the way, there's a big, I'm not going to. He was going to replace Intrach. Yeah, yeah. And it was it was a e-cash mint that was like anonymous payments, bear assets run by the either the central bank or the rural made of Canada or some one of those. Yeah. The Royal Canadian Mint created a digital cash platform called Mintchip in 2012. Mint chip.

There you go. some of those guys are now bitcorners I mean they probably wore bit corners in the first place who were hired to build this it's such a shame he launched but you know they killed it unless they realized that people were made to have privacy it's like no no no no put it back to the box yeah exactly exactly

all my god this beautiful okay I'd be remiss if it didn't ask as well too guys so again you know BTCSessions.com review here we're going to go through the tech in NVK we just had a release of the latest firmware from cold card actually just yesterday recording on Friday March 6 and it was released on March 5th.

What's in the latest firmware? Why should I check this out? Why should I even care? Okay. So there's been demand for proof of reserves that don't docks a lot of your ETXOs and things for like millennia, right, since Bitcoin started. And then as products started to sort of like become more interesting

that you have to sort of essentially show proof of reserves for your bank or whatever, there is banks, I think, in Europe that you can actually get now. Oh, actually, no, it's J.P. Morgan in America. If you're a big client there, you can actually get a mortgage if you can do proof of funds of Bitcoin. Really? Yeah. So, I mean, this is not available for everybody on the street, right? Yeah.

You can imagine. But, you know, it's a beginning, right? So being able to prove coins without doxing things is a huge deal, right? And there was a SPAC put out in 2018. BIP 322, proof of reserves, that sort of like, you know, it was sort of like abandoned there, kind of like how PSBT was sitting there since 2014.

And we're like, okay, this is fantastic, and we finally got around to do it. So now you can. MAMPOLDspace is launching it as support for it too. There's more wallets coming. And what's really cool is that, like, all you have to do is if the wallet has ETXO control, you can use that, but it essentially creates a kind of like a PSBT or non-PSPT flow

where it shows you a QR, you signed a QR on the code card, and bam, like you have a proof of reserves that is fairly private, and you just scan that back to the person that's asked you for that proof of reserves. That's pretty cool. The flow is like ridiculously simple, which is really cool. And like one of the really awesome things about big. 322. And by the way, I have a really funny story about that. I actually had to do a proof of reserve last week. And the way that it was kind of done is so retarded. And I was telling the notary,

I'm like, do you want to hire me to like fix that? Like I can, I can fix that whole flow for you, you know, for a small fee. But basically it was kind of like, hey, like you have to send it to an address. And then I'm on the phone with him. And he's like, send this exact amount to this other address and we're going to look at up taking screenshots on Mempool and I'm like, dude, this is so retarded. Like anybody could be, you know, like I could have my other friend on the phone sending funds to that address. And like the way that it used to work is you would go into Electrum and you would sign a message from an address saying, I own this address. And what BIP322 does, that's new or that's, that's, that's better is you're actually constructing a fake transaction with a

U2XO. So you don't just prove that you own the address. You prove that you own the UTXO because I could be signing an address that used to belong to someone else in the past or something like that. And like, you can actually combine Bib 322 with two things. You can actually include in your message. You can include a block hash. That's really interesting. That's something that I've been working on, one of my vibe coded projects, which is like if I include a blog hash in a signature, I can, but you don't really have to do that because you have the blockchain, but like at least I had the private key to that UTXO at that time, and you can also timestamp that on, on, on open timestamp, because like, when you're doing a proof of

reserve, there's no transaction actually broadcasts on the blockchain. So you can see that the UTIO, like, existed at that time. It hasn't moved. But it's like really, really interesting technology. And it has like good and bad applications, like the bad application is that that allows, you know, governments to enforce, like, travel rule a little bit better. I hope they don't figure that one out. But definitely, like, for proof of reserves. Cut it out. Cut it out of the show. Remove, remove.

Oh, give them ideas. Cut out. But, like, you know, and in some countries, what's really awesome if you're, like, living on a Bitcoin standard, sometimes you have to prove that you own capital to either open a corporation or, like, if you want to change your, like, residency staff. for example. Like you want to immigrate to a new country and you know, you're like a nomadic cypherpunk bitcoiner. You don't have any fucking bank accounts. You don't have any paperwork. But yeah, but on paper you're broke. So like they won't recognize you as as a desirable

immigrant because you have literally zero money. Same thing with if you want to incorporate somewhere, the government's like, no, we don't want any fucking broke losers incorporating company in my tax haven. I want you to prove that you can put some capital in that company. So you can use BIP 322 for that. and like that's obviously something that we're working on. And like that's a key component for a lot of the arc is using Bip 322. And also the Ordinals people and like the ruins people I think are using Bip 322. So it's cool. I mean it's it's like a neat little add on to Bitcoin.

Which of course like if you have a cold card and you want to prove you have money, like you don't necessarily want to move the funds on chain. Like yeah, because I don't know like I'm I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't want to take that. Where am I going to move them to? Like another cold, I have to buy another coal card. You know,

it's kind of annoying. So that's a really neat add on. No, I love it. Sessions, your thoughts? Yeah, I mean,

it's, it's, I have yet to need a, a proof of reserves, but I would, you know, I'm sure Sailor is going to listen to this episode and he's going to be super stoked that we can finally resolve his problem.

That was the issue. Yeah. It was just, You were just missing 50s before. But now, now this will absolutely cement it. But yeah, no, I mean, I hope stuff like this does cement the ability to do something like that for, especially for those that are in charge of a lot of other people's money, those that, you know, I think that, you know, society has kind of had this inverse where the people

at the top have the things are able to be very opaque and the people at the bottom have to report their $600 Venmo transactions. But you know, like even if you remove the concerns that like, you know, like the tax evasions or whatever is the reasons that people give for that. The main reason is that like, you know, if you're if you are a creditor, right, like if you're somebody who's offering somebody alone, right, just purely based on the credit, not collateral. Okay. Like, you know, somebody at the top, right, is going to have like, you know, 50 different large assets, right? So, so like the bank or whatever, whoever's going to give them the loan knows that they can try to sue them for one of those assets if the person can't pay, right? The little guy doesn't have shit. Right. So like, it's very hard to sort of like say, okay, well, so like your risk profile is very high, right? Because like, I can't, I can't collect. if you fail to pay, right? So, you know, at least now, like with something like this, for the cyphopunks, right,

for the Bitcoiners, like, and progressively more normies, like, you can at least prove that you have assets, right, without, like, losing privacy. Although, like, does this, I've always thought in the realm of, okay, proving you have Bitcoin to be able to obtain a loan. If it still remains a self-custody, like, there's still. still the very real threat of not being able to collect. Because, you know, with assets, like, you know, you can sue, but you can, you can, you can like sue the person.

That's what an actuary insurance does, right? Like, it's like, or, or, you know, the equivalent for, for credit markets. It's like you have a risk profile, right? You have a certain history. You have some rap, right? And then we can, we can assess your risk and offer you, like, a risk adjusted rate. right like the problem with like bitcoin is that like there was like if you don't have proof of reserves right like you have no way to assessing at all like it goes from zero to at something yeah that's true it's yeah it's just differentiating you know the captured assets that you may have i have stocks and you know that's held centrally or i have a house that's not going to move anywhere um you know that's it's a little bit easier to sue somebody and then have those those those things see Whereas with Bitcoin, it's kind of like, why I moved it somewhere, or I went on a boating trip.

Right. And it's not, it's not like a bullet. It's not like a multi-sig escrow. You know, I know what you mean in the sense that like I can prove that I have money and I can, you know, just, I don't know, sell it or something or move it somewhere else. But it's a beginning of a conversation to have with someone. And like, for example, you know, in the OTC world, there's this retarded concept, which is the Satoshi test, right? which is basically like, hey, I want to buy like 100 Bitcoins. I want to sell you 100 Bitcoins.

And it's kind of like, all, well, prove that you have it by like moving them all to one address and then sending a Satoshi to my address and I'll send it back to you and send this exact amount. And it's kind of like dumb. And like a lot of the times, you know, people are, they don't have the Bitcoins. You know, they're just trolling you. So it's kind of like, all right, at least there's like a really easy like one click in a wallet way to prove that I have some money or a coal card.

And, you know, these tools are, these tools are. necessary for, oh, and I hate this cringe concept of like Bitcoin needs to grow up. But it's not that Bitcoin needs to grow up. And I don't want to, I am not like a big like financialization of Bitcoin advocates, but at the same time like Bitcoin is capital. Bitcoin is money. Bitcoin is using capital markets. There's all sorts of financial products. And I'm not, I'm not like, you know, that narrative is kind of like overwhelmingly being captured by the Bitcoin Treasury people that are kind of like cringe about the financial of your Bitcoin and getting yield and whatever the fuck that is.

But there are interesting concepts, which are still cyphabunk. Like the AR guys, the ARC labs guys are all about that. You know, they're all about like using these tools to create financial products within the ARC network. And, you know, to some degree, other projects that I don't think are, you know, like Citria and all these kind of things. Like some of them I don't like. Some of them I like more than others.

But like, it is kind of true that, you know, like, Bitcoin can be spent, and it will always be spendable, a lira 2s. I mean, it's not solved, but it's, you know, there's, as NVK kind of said earlier, it's like, not everyone will own a UTXO, but everyone will be able to make a Bitcoin payment and, like, how cypherpunk you are kind of depends on how rich you are in a way. Although not exactly true because, like, Ark and Spark have these, you know,

kind of like middle grounds thing. But still, like, Bitcoin is going to be hell. by individuals, it's going to be held by companies, it's going to be spent, but how is it going to be involved in more complex financial contracts and like derivatives and, you know, financial, I'm not an expert in finance, so I don't know any of these terms. I actually have no idea what I'm talking about. But. That far, right, for instance, like, just think about trade credit, right? Like, you want to make a batch of like production, right? There is like, like, five layers of suppliers, right, that buy from

each other and stuff, right? Like, it's very common to have like, you know, 60 day, 90 day, 120 day credit, right? Because like, you have to get the stuff, make the stuff. Maybe the credit is on just part of the second, the other 50% that you owe, right? Like, you need trust between people who, who are part of a supply chain, right? Like, and you have suppliers that you've been using for ages. So they might say, you know what, guys? Like, the market is a little slow. If you guys can prove to us, and this is very common. This happens all the time. The market is a little slow.

You know, your say is a little slow. So, like, can you guys prove to us that your balance sheet is good? So we can continue giving you, like, credit on this thing. Like, during COVID that happened a lot, you know? Like, you know, we have like infinite credit of Amex, right? Amex will say, hey, guys, can you guys, like, give us, like, you know, like your last 12 months of, of, like, statements? And, like, show us some liability, like, some, some, um, It's a balance sheet sort of number.

So we know your business is healthy. So we can continue giving you the credit because the world is a little weird right now. Right. Like, you know, you may choose to not do it and, you know, handle that way. Or you can say, you know, like I kind of understand. You know, it sucks, but, you know, I get it because you guys are having a lot of defaults, right? So like, okay, you know, I'll work a few guys, right? So like being able to show to supplier, like hopefully in the near future, it gets even more Bitcoin base.

like, you know, hey guys, look, like we have coins. Like, you know, you don't have to worry about it, right? Or for example, you know, you do a Bitcoin back loan, you know, like you don't have the funds available to send to top up a margin or something, right? Like maybe they charge a higher interest for that period, but they're able to like allow you to not get liquidated because he can prove that you have some funds, right? Like, I think like you cannot do trade without trust, right? Like, it's great to have a trustless money involved in that.

But, like, you still need to figure out, like, all these other sort of like, like, lubrications of the system, right? All these extra little tools to get things going. Because, you know, the alternative is like fucking use, you know, like your shit fucking bank account with like the big bank that's owned by the government, you know. No, agreed. MVP-V-K, was there anything else in the latest firmware that you want to highlight? I know there was BIP 380. There was also, I think, a nuke it mode.

Yeah. So the WIF private key signing is a big deal because, like, there's a lot of open dimes out there. There's a lot of people that have single use private keys, paper wallets or all kinds of things like that. Or sometimes you just need to help somebody sign a transaction, right? And the biggest challenge of that is like, you know, a lot of times is like a meaningful amount of money. And you don't want to use a computer to sign it. Right. You don't want to put a private key that has real money in it on a computer period, ever.

So code card has the temporary seed vault, right? So you can load private keys there to sign them without being your master key. Right. And what we did is we added support for this like very common old standard call with. Right. So you can load those private keys into a code card to then sign it securely into like, like when you sweep it into a new key. It's kind of like a big deal for,

it's like one of those, like if you know, you know. Yeah. No, it's a huge deal. It's a massive deal. You're totally right about that. And by the way, Sevald is amazing. It's really cool. I've been playing around with it and it's a great feature.

It's a, you know, it's like you said, it's like, if you know, you know, if you use Bitcoin a lot and you have multiple seeds and you have multiple setups and stuff like that, it's just like, it definitely makes life a lot easier if you're managing a bunch of seats. I find this super funny, right? Because there is all this new sort of like entrance in the Bitcoin space as vendors,

right? Like they immediately go after the grandmothers sort of like use case, which don't actually use Bitcoin. And they can never comprehend why people use this alien device called code card, right? And like, it's because like if you're a Bitcoiner actually like using Bitcoin,

There's like this, like, you know, 200 different use cases you'd need on a yearly basis, not all the time, but like, you know, at least one time a year you need to do something weird and you need to do that securely, right? And like, and somebody has to support all these features, right? Like, so like we do it because we need it ourselves. Like, you know, I have open times that I had to like, you know, sweep. So like, okay, we're going to do this, right? There is a lot of that. no 100% I just say even from like the when I'm working with people it's it's always because again I'm gonna see I'm gonna see edge cases people that are having problems and there's so many times where we're on some sort of a different device that doesn't even have like ephemeral keys and it's like what a pain in the ass that I don't even have that option with what they're currently using that I don't even have that I'm currently asking me and then Ben I want to know if you have any last minute thoughts as well there too before we actually jumped on this call you had mentioned to me because I love the push transaction feature but my assumption was that using that was kind of a trade off and privacy but you're correct to me and telling me that it's actually not yeah so It's the opposite. You get a lot of privacy from it. Why? So, you know, in your sparrow, on your computer, right, you're pulling on a certain IP information about a certain transaction, right? Like, anybody will be checking on Mempool on that computer.

So, like, essentially you're tainting that IP with information about the transaction, right? Now, if you're broadcasting that transaction from a different IP, you're getting a lot of privacy there. Okay? Interesting. Okay, yeah, keep on. And it gets more interesting. So what we do is on the, on the, if you're using the code card default setting, right,

the defaults to a code card coin kite site server, we actually use a pool of different nodes to broadcast the transactions with slightly off time. And they're from different IPs. So we do some privacy work there. Now, you can also set so that a user. is a node that you have somewhere else with maybe different like transaction policy for timing and other things. So it lowers the timing attack concerns, not timing attack, like the privacy attack, right? Yeah. You could also set so it's mempel.

That space, which broadcast transactions for a lot of people so you can hide in the noise there too. And you can, like your start nine might have your own mempel dot space. You can set to that too. Because it's part of the source code of Memple, by the way. So they support right from the get go. So you actually do get some privacy on that, on top of being stupidly easy to broadcast straight from a cold cart. You know, one thing that we looked at a couple months ago, I don't know if you know if that exists a server that,

an anonymous server that broadcasts a transaction on a schedule or on a gate. So there's a fascinating thing happening right now because this has been a gripe of mine and Craig and a few people for many years. Right? So I've been trying to bully Craig into having essentially like a broadcast pool

with certain settings for timing and other sort of things inside Sparrow. He's like, no, that must live in the server in Bitcoin Core. Right? Like I'm like, no, but they're never going to merge it. You know, like it's just like, you know, let's, so, but a BIP, it was a BIP or a PR,

I can't remember now, came out that I think they partially merged or sort of like moving along where you can. can actually set like random sort of like some proper math in that, some moon math in that on like how to broadcast the transactions to maximize privacy, right? But why do I want this? It's because, see, when you're moving keys, okay, you're like you decided that you no longer

want to use your old key, maybe got compromised partially or something, you want to move to a new key, right? You have to move all your TXOs, UTXOs over, right? But you can't just consolidate everything. They'll be terrible for privacy, right? So I wanted a feature on Sparrow where I can just map the same UTXO set that was in one and it goes to the other one. The code card supports chained PSBT signing, right? So you can load this gigantic thing and you just press yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Read it first, of course. Exactly. But then essentially it maps out all the same UTXOs into a new wallet, new key, right? And then Sparrow broadcast that and Craig, of course, didn't want to broadcast it altogether, right, because it creates a problem. So hopefully all this solves the problem where you can have all this chain transactions all broadcast it randomly in a proper mathematical way of figuring out what makes sense, right, so that he can now essentially migrate from one wallet to another.

It's going to happen to a lot of OGs. It's happening to a lot of people. Like they have old setups, they loaded their old seeds into a, code cards of your old ex-pribs from weird setups before and people need to migrate to segue or to more interesting stuff right um so so there is a lot of work being done on that too and that's basically be like i was just say that would be that would basically make it so that you're um the idea of separating out the time is that you're not revealing that you're migrating to a new wallet as well too that you're basically hiding the fact that these aren't just spending transactions

we're actually going from one wallet to a new wallet you know you get a lot of privacy that way too It's quite nice, actually. Yeah, absolutely. And let's say you have like an old coal card and it has, I don't know, it's got like 20 UTXOs on it. And for the sake of the argument, you know, you've got 20 bitcoins with one UTXO. And they're unrelated, right? And then you've been listening to BTC sessions.

So you're smart. And you're like, aha, I'm not going to consolidate them into one UTXO. I'm going to generate 20 UTXOs on my new cold card or my new device, whatever, a new wallet, and I'm going to send them one by one to a new address, which is the correct way to migrate your wallet. But then even though the chain analysis, people are like not that smart, generally,

what a sophisticated attacker can do is look at, oh, wait a minute, like these 20 UTXOs were dormant for like three years, and they were all moved within the same block or within two or three blocks of each other, and not only that, they used the same exact fee rates. They had the same fee rate. They had the same fee rate and they would broadcast in a short period of time. And of course, with like massive data analysis of the blockchain, you can be like, good chance.

That's why what I told Craig is that what I really want to the dream here is I create, like when you go create a new wallet on Sparrow, he already has 50,000 auctions, right? So that's the Sparrow like job anyways. One of them is going to be like migrate, you know, and then you click. that and it's sort of like it creates a proper privacy set in terms of like like you know like what you should do based on the UTX as you had before right to move to a new wallet that that will be the dream maybe it also uh maybe it also automatically swaps to liquid and then back to bitcoin into the new wallet that's that that's uh ooh that could be a fun feature now but i'm thinking about those things you know like like utx o management is obviously the most important problem because

it's so hard to do for Normies. And, like, again, it's kind of like going back to this concept of, yeah, man, we can talk about layer twos and all sorts of shit, but, like, on-chain is still a problem. On-chain, man, it's like, it's... NVK's concern is, like, I want to be able to import an old paper wallet from 2013. And, like, that sounds like a niche concern, but it's not. Like, and, like, you guys obviously know that.

There's thousands of people who have these needs. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, also from like a product perspective, like, these tend to actually be the customers that you want. I think we saw like a couple hundred thousand Sats cards. You know, like that's a lot of people with single keys out there. You know, like those can support up to like nine keys. I can't remember now.

Yeah. You know, it's a lot of people with cards. Tell me those ideas, NVK, because that's also what I'm thinking about, you know. And like the other thing that there's two things that I'm thinking about. One of them is a like, okay, so let's say that you load a coal card onto, you know, a sparrow or a bowl water or something. the next tool that we want to build is a UTXO analysis tool, which is like, hey, you've got a bunch of fucking, you've got a bunch of fucking dust here,

and you have a bunch of like megaballer outputs here. And what if, so, because you don't want to consolidate too much, because if you consolidate too much, and then you spend from that UTXO, you're revealing. So let's say that you have like 10 Bitcoin, you should ideally have like maybe one or two UTCOs with one Bitcoin, and then a few of them with like 10 million sats. and then a few of them with a million sats,

and then a few of them with 100,000 stats, right? Or more of them with 100,000 stats. So that if you want to buy groceries, you automatically select the small one. And if you want to buy a house, you're not using that to buy groceries. Sorry, you're using the UDXOs for different purposes. So to be able to split them

or to consolidate them in a smart way is actually really fucking hard. Really, really fucking hard. A couple years ago, some Anon reached out. And he's like, hey, so I have like a few open dimes and they each have like a thousand coins in them. What? And then, you know, like,

people don't understand, like, the, the amount of economic value there is out there in, you know, like, dude, come on, man. Like, you know, like, no. It wasn't meant for that. It was not more, right? Like, it's just, it's funny, right?

Like, there is so much out there. Like, you know, and a lot of these people, they actually pay for independent audits on things. Like, there is just so much outside of Twitter for on-chain stuff. You know, unfortunately, Twitter gets consumed into like, you know, lightning feeding chickens and shit like that. Where it's like there's this gigantic market of like, you know, dentists, lawyers and like totally normal people who just bought some coin way back. And they have to manage them. And they don't want to put them into some. like, you know, a collaborative thing.

They're perfectly happy, you know, doing stuff. Because, you know, realistically speaking, like, if you manage to amass, like, you know, a few million dollars, you know, you probably have enough brain power to, like, you know, do some self-custody, right? Like, so like, 100%. It's hard. It's hard. It really pisses me off when people just sort of reduce the whole conversation of self-custody

to like, you know, grandma. Yeah. the way, a lot of grandmas are dentists with like a lot of coin. True. I've worked with a lot of grandmas. There's a decent amount of grandmas that have coins. It's like, yeah, it's the, it's like, it's that like grandma that doesn't exist sort of like profile that like, you know, just pisses me off. And like, and like what also like you're talking about is so wallets should be more than just keychains. They should be able to analyze and create transactions in a smart way in the same way that, for example, and, you know, I'm going to joke about this because

kind of like Bull Bitcoin's objective is to become obsolete. There's no more fiat. And like, you know, kind of like Bitcoin's so easy to use. I mean, we're perfectly fired at it. Eventually, we just don't need to exist. You know, a product is fine forever. No more updates from here. So like, yeah, so there's wallet migration, there's UTXO consolidation and fragmentation. There's one more thing we're working on. Yeah. That's going to need. mute hardware. It's not coming hardware. It's going to take at least another year. Is it the cold card radio where I can broadcast over a ham radio?

Almost there. This is your close. So the point is you could have a version of cold card that, like, of course, you can scratch off and whatever, but it has the capacity of taking in block data for the UTXOs that

it holds. Right? So that means the code card could have UTXO management and then he knows the amounts that are in those can generate a transaction, sign it, and then he just tap the broadcast. So it's like a full wallet. It's not going to work for like, you know, a million UTXOs.

This is for like, you know, like reasonable shit, right? But, you know, if you have like, you know, 50, 100 UTXOs there and you need to make a transaction, you no longer need a phone. That's really cool. Essentially, you'd be like, would you basically just, I'm trying to get the logistics of it. Am I basically just like doing some export from Sparrow

onto an SD card that includes like the block? You select the ETXOs and then like you tap it and it's going to call URL like say from Mempool because Mempool would have an API endpoint for this. And you're going to say, please check these addresses. Mempool is going to generate an address

that like a QI. that says, like, here's the information for these CETXOs, you scan it, and boom, cold card has the information that he needs to generate the transaction. Generates the transaction. You tap the cold card. Boom, transaction out. That's awesome. Sessions?

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot here. I did have. He's like making notes. Yeah. I actually have a completely different question here. Sure. I just a quick aside.

So you did say. Hey, like, it's a small subset of people eventually that will actually have full UTX. I know. It's still much bigger than we are now. Yeah. But it's a subset of the 8, 9, 10 billion people we have in the world. Yeah. So my question then, is there a point when Coin Kite offers a device that has support for something like cold storage of like liquid Bitcoin?

Like is that? No. So unlikely. Like the problem is nobody uses liquid. Liquid, you know, like Francis does this part sign or two of the federation and stuff. But like the volume in liquid is too small. There is no competing federation for liquid. So like there is a few reasons why like I want to love liquid, right?

But like I can't because there's just like this gaps that prevent me from liking it. Right. And it's a non-standard transaction, too. It's not like, it's not the LibSec standard spec, right? Like, it's very specific. So I know you want to do stables, right? Like, that's really where you're getting to, to a certain extent, right? Like, I mean, for me, no, like, it's more just, I could see that as, as for the, for the people that don't, that aren't going to be cable.

of holding full on-chain UTXOs at some points. But they don't need it, right? Like, I mean, you know, honestly, like, you know, if the amount of money you have in, in this stuff is like similar to what, like, you know, like an average, a middle class person has in their checking account, right? Like, just use the phone. Like, if they have an iPhone in lockdown mode, you know, it's secure enough for them to have that checking account, right?

And then you use your code card for your savings account. Right, there is no need for the high velocity stuff to exist air gap. High velocity is by nature high velocity, it's different tradeoffs, right? That's when you use your lightning. That's when you use your, you know, your other stuff. Now, one thing I have considered is like, how can I support stables? Because like we have stables needs, right? So right now it's just like use a different harder wallet, right?

That's kind of like what we do. But, you know, like, but the problem is like right now, the only stables that have like, you know, real volume are on Ethereum, right? Like, that's the reality of it. Like, you know, and I don't even know that if in good conscience I can send a transaction to a fucking bare hacks, right? Like, it's like it's hard to explain to people how it retarded Ethereum is, right? Like they don't even have check sums in their addresses. and they have accounts. And those accounts are fully public.

So, like, you can find out all the money that somebody has. I'm sure they also use some cleaning and they send it to another account. But still, like, it's a mess. So my hope is that either somebody figured out how to do a color coin type thing, like something that, like, it's, like, very compatible with Bitcoin primitives. That would be my ideal, right? because then we can very easily support it. But again, like, you know,

code storage of stables is a little weird, right? Because they can recall those stables too. You're trusting the quote unquote mint, the issuer, right? Like, Tether can cancel your coins. So, like, you know, you're really just defending those from, like, like hackers, right, really. Or from like bed up, bad operations, right?

So, or employees or something. So, like, you know, there is a need, no doubt, for a hardware wallet that can do stables. It is a problem that we have. I just, I just still don't know how to solve it except for supporting maybe, you know, USDT, USC on a code card. But, like, it's so antithetical to how the whole system was built. That would have to be a separate firmware. It would have to be something completely.

different. Yeah. And like, you know, regarding liquid, you hit the head, nail on the head, like I, we could technically have jade on liquid in the whole wallet,

but it's like, it's unusable. Like that's the thing. No, no, no, no, no. I tried. I'm using ledger for shit coins, you know, like for the stables, you know, like for the, for the stables.

Because seriously, like, Jade is unusable. So no comment on the jade. But on liquid specifically, I don't want people to have liquid in cold storage, like liquid BTC. And, you know, as I know, we've been rolling out different versions of the auto swap, which are getting better and better and less annoying. A lot of people were annoyed by auto swap because they're like, I actually wanted to have 50 grand on liquid. And I'm like, what you're not supposed to.

And they're like, well, shut the fuck up. You don't tell me what to go. No, that's the point. Francis, you're right. I'm going to use this fucking stable coins, you know, like we need operational cash for a company. Like, so the simple coins are different because there's no reason to have more than like a few, I mean, I'm going to say that, you know, to have more than than like 10 grand of liquid BTC, not USDT. Because you can always just, you can go back and forth in a non-custodial, trustless way in and out. So like the stablecores are different. And like, I agree with you about the need for stable coins because.

like, of course, you have stable corn needs because, again, like, Cold Card has a supply chain, which is a global supply chain. Banking sucks. Banking sucks. And, like, we use stablecoin at bowl to settle between different international entities and different banking partners from time to time. Like, you know, the stuff we do with Costa Rica goes almost everything that we do in Costa Rica at some point in time touches stable coins, unfortunately, but that's just the reality.

And then I've been looking at stable coins this year, more seriously. Also, after talking to the HRF people, and talking to a lot of people in Venezuela, I'm like, okay, you know what? I'll like give a look. And the state of Ethereum and Tron is so horrendous. It's so horribly bad. I mean, the privacy on these blockchains is, no, first of all, the craziest thing. Anyway, I'm actually not going to go in it because it just annoys me to talk about the shitcoins,

but it's just trust me, it's like really, really, really bad. And the sad reality of Liquid USDT is that Liquid USDT is insanely private, insanely censorship resistant compared to the other chains, which is, for example, like, Tether basically has an off switch for the other blockchains, and it doesn't on Tether, because on the other chains, it's a contract, whereas on Liquid, it's an issue with asset. So it's like, if I was to say to an activist that is, like, like, which USDT should I use?

I would say liquid. Of course, it's like there's no liquidity on liquid USDT at all. There's only one exchange that, there's a few exchange that use it. Although that's not a technical problem, but it's still an ecosystem problem. But yeah, it's like, you know, the disaster. And, you know, NVK, I kind of feel like,

even if RGB or taproot assets, which have similar primitives than Bitcoin, I mean, they're not Bitcoin, but they're kind of like, you know, they're kind of like on Bitcoin. like, to me, it's like, I don't care. Can I stick it in? Like, I'm just like, this is how we develop shit.

And that's why cold card is safe. It's like, can I stick it in a fucking PSBT? Just the quick curb sign it. Great. Yeah. You know, like, I can do it? Like, do I have to deviate from this formula? You know, that's when the problem starts.

Yeah. And for liquid, the problem is confidential assets. Because I think that an unconfinancial PSET. A completely different thing. I think a PSET would not be a big. deal. But I think the blinding is probably where that's... Honestly, like, you know, like Blockstream, like, you know,

screwed the pooch there because, like, there is no competing federation. The HSMs are closed source. And so, like, the fact that the lack of competitive federation is a, is a plus. It's not a minus. No, I mean, but it proves the technology, right? Like, you know, if a technology is actually open, right? You're going to have alternatives to it. using the same thing.

Well, it is open. Like the, the, the functionality software, I believe, is open source. Yeah,

maybe not the HSM, specifically. Um, but technically anybody could run a federation, but the thing is like, why would you? Right? It's kind of like,

it's the, it's the opposite of the cash shoe model where, like, this is a whole other very deep conversation we can have about the custody models. But like, you know, like all of the cashu mints require you to use an exchange every time you send money.

literally like every cash shoe min operator is in exchange. He's going to exchange the cash shoe token for lightning in a custodial. Definitely like virtual asset service provider should be regulated way. And, you know, Liquid has a really funny component to it, which is it's technically a blockchain. So everybody knows you can't regulate a blockchain. So it's kind of like avoided regulation on the fact that it's technically a blockchain. But regardless of that, like, regardless of that, it's just like, if, for example, taproot assets, like, starts to work, I mean, the reason why people use Ethereum and Tron is because everybody that wants to use stable coins is most people that want to use stable coins are somehow using it for trading or for uniswap or some kind of, like, weird financial shenanigan. Like, the other people that are using stable coins are using it just for settlement and, like, the regular, like normal.

people like you and I that use stable coins to send money to somewhere else. And like, by the way, like, exchanges require, uh, blockchains to pay listing fees. So if you want, if you want, if you want, if you want to have like your, your blockchain on like finance, I've seen some, I've seen some $20 million price tags on some of these things. So like, like, like, let's see, this is the thing like, you know, like, you know, it's a different game, right? The shit coin, because you get your validation because it's now on buying. You know, it's like, we've been offered a checks before by the check winners to add some.

Ethereum has money. Tron has money. Solana has money. Solana can bribe Binance to add Solana. Whereas like, RGB or Taproot assets or Liquid, you know, I mean, maybe not taproot assets because they do have some funding. But the other ones are kind of like niche little cypherpunk projects. And they just don't have the, they just don't have the ICO money.

They're like, let's be honest. Like, they just don't have the ICO money to pay for that shit, right? which is like really, really sad. And again, like, as you said, like with with with with Kornkide, you know, if you were to support USDT, what it actually means is you have to support Ethereum and Solana and Tron, at least one of the three, not even Salana, like Ethereum and Tron. And then it's like not only you have to support it, but you have to keep up with it. You have to keep up with the tech.

You have to keep up with all their forks. You have to keep up with all the fucking bugs. You need you need a team. Like you need an actual team for that. Like you're going to have to hire, you would literally have to hire a shitcoin team inside cold card coin kite. Yeah, that's how it works. That's stuff. That's how it works. Like you need because, you know, like you can't, it's the same problem with the lightning, right?

Like it's just another coin if you want to think about it that way. Like if you're going to accept or deal with these things in any sort of like adult sort of grown up way, like you have to have like internal knowhow for this stuff. Right. Otherwise it breaks. And then when it breaks, you go like, uh, what do we do now? right? Like, you know, and like, imagine for us that it's even worse, because for you, it's like, you know, cryptographic software libraries that you have to like maintain. Like imagine, you know, bull bitcoin is like, okay, we're doing stable coins now, right? We're doing stable coins because,

you know, we have a lot of traffic in Argentina and Colombia. And a lot of these people, they're like, do you accept stable coins? Can I deposit in stable coins? Then we're like, no, no, no, we can. But imagine that we wanted to. Then the problem is, okay, so how do we do that? In a private way. Without compromising, there's only one way to do that is to run your own nodes, right? It's still on your own wallets. And that is fucking a mess. It's so, so, so bad. It's so awful. So like, you know, it's a big, for me, the biggest tragedy is that, and I'm not going to blame Blockstream on that because there's, you know, there's things that they did, that I wouldn't have done if I was running liquid.

I mean, they're not running liquid, but, you know, they're like, Blockstream is kind of like the, the main software provider for the liquid network. It's technically two different things, but, you know, it's, it's, it's, is that, um, USDT was not, was not. And I honestly believe that part of the reason why USDT on liquid is not taking off, it's because it's, it's hard to be compliant. It's hard for the exchange to be compliant with confidential transactions.

and Liquid is technically traceable because it's a UTXO blockchain but try doing chain analysis without amounts as heuristics, that is pretty much impossible. And you can't tell the asset either, right? You can't tell the amount. You can't tell the asset and the amounts. So it's like you can obviously trace stuff on liquid,

like you can go on Mempool and you can try to trace but without amounts and without asset IDs it's like at best, at bets you can kind of guess what's going on. You cannot prove anything on Liquid. But you can guess. You can guess that the funds are probably going and they're up at the BitFenex maybe.

And you can guess that maybe they're going to site swap. And you can maybe guess that, oh, that looks like it can cluster the wallet and that looks like it could be bold based on timing analysis. I mean, it's just really, really hard. So like, USDT is, Liquid is like the dark USB.

You know, it's like the dark USBT. It's like the, and it's not, it's not trustless. Like, Liquid is not trusted at all. It's a fully trusted system. It's like 100% trusted. But at the same time, you look at the way that people use Ethereum and Tron, and I don't want to talk about shit coins, but I don't know. I'm on a role here.

But like, the way that people use shitcoins is they use infrastructure companies. They don't use the nodes. And like, even on Tron, for example, like, See, there's, I think, one archival node left for Ethereum. I mean, it's on Amazon and somebody runs it. Like, you can't even like, seriously, you can't run a note. Like, it's like for Ethereum, you cannot get the full, full, full, full thing. You know that Tron runs a subscription model for paying fees?

Because if you run, if you send a Tron USBT transfer, you pay the full fee. You pay two US dollars per USET transfer. Otherwise, this is how it's. scam you did. You have to stake Tron and when you stake Tron you get energy points which allow, it's like a budget for you to pay fees but if you're like

a service provider there's no way you can stake enough. You have to stick like a hundred million dollars of Tron to get to be able to do deposits and withdrawals. So what they do is there's a Tron subscription service where you basically send your transaction to Tron to the Tron company and they pay

the fee for you. So there's like it just print the money. So there's these honeypots And there's like other companies that do that So like Another insane thing about I don't know Ethereum just sucks Like you have to pay the gas from the same address on Ethereum

So even though you have long story short Even though you have HD wallets and you generate new addresses The gas comes from one address Oh yeah So like the first time I used the USDC I was like I received it in a wallet Right for a company And and I was like okay great

So like I set up like a phone wallet kind of thing Right like you don't know what I'm doing, right? So, and then, like, you know, I give them this non-check sum hacks, right? The wallet says to them, don't send a little bit first because you never sent to that before. Right? So the person sends me them. And then I can't send the money out. You don't have enough gas. I'm like, what the fuck is that? And then like, oh, you need to also have a little bit of Ethereum to pay the fees to send USDC. My God. Yeah. Yeah. And another, by the way, awesome trick. If any of you guys

have used like Aqua or side swap, the same problem exists on Liquid, where you need LBT to pay USDT. You don't have they solve that? NVK is actually fucking awesome. It's actually a pay join. There's a pay join server where

you create a pay join with the Sideswap server and like let's say I want to send some USBT to NVK on Liquid and I only have USDT, I don't have LBT, I don't have LBT and I don't have LBTC. And I actually going to send a tight, I'm going to create an output that goes to the swap server,

USDT, and the server is going to do a pay join and add the, the LBT fee as an input. So it's actually pretty fucking sweet because that's, by the way, that's why almost every send on USBT on the liquid network is a pay join. That's another reason why Liquid has a kind of interesting phenomenon privacy wise is that a very large amount of transactions on every single swap with side swap. By the way, you know that it's huge in Brazil. Did you know that? Liquid is huge in Brazil. No, but see, here's the fake.

This is what North Americans don't understand. It's like outside of North America, people don't have money. And what they, they can't withstand volatility, right? So like, what people really want is just banking freedom with stable coins. Like, that's like, if you

ask an Argentine, what does he want, is going to say I just want some, some, some tether. And just, There's a Brazilian stable coin, by the way, in Brazil called Deepix. Have you heard of that, NVK? No. No.

No, I know Picks. D-Pix is like the Brazilian PICs stable coin on liquid. And as far as I know, it is the largest traffic on the Liquid Network. I believe it. I believe it. I was wondering that when I was looking in Aqua and they have like options to turn on and off stables. and I saw Deepix and I was like, I thought it was like some,

I mean, I guess it technically is a shit coin, but like, it's pretty dope. It's pretty dope. It's pretty dope. So, the,

essentially the Brazilian ACH, right? Like, it's like, so in Costa Rica, they have Simpe. In Europe, they have like, Iban or like,

depends on the countries they have their own things too. But essentially in Brazil, uh, you don't have to use the banking system. You can use the central banking system. You get a central bank account as a citizen where you essentially, can make payments of any amounts on the system called PICs.

So you can use, and they use a phone number. So it's so intense in terms of adoption and everything, essentially every Brazilian has it, right? That people were getting kidnapped on the street to send their picks out of their phones, right? So what people, all Brazilians now do is they have two phones because they only work to phones. So they have two phones. They have the PICS phone that they leave it at home because essentially like anybody they

have to use PICs for it. and then they have their normal phone that they carry with you when they leave that house. And D-Pix is basically like a stable coin that's linked to kind of like the CINPEB Bitcoin Drungold infrastructure where you can convert that to PICS and back and forth. And then like the thing that's really awesome about that, which again, not a huge fan of stablecoins, but also it's cool technology. It's that the confidential transactions layer of PICs means that you can, can basically anonymize your picks transfers.

Like you go from picks to the depicts, you move it around, and then you go back to pick somewhere else, and you know, the ins and outs are kind of like blocked. But anyway, it's kind of like, most people don't know that there's this whole, you know, and that's also linked to an atomic swap with Bitcoin as well. So you can atomically swap depicts to LBTC without going through a trusted third party.

It's using the site swap. It's a fully trust, the site swap atomic swap model is fucking awesome. It's a truly atomic swap between stablecoins and Bitcoin. As the same time that the world has become a 1984, like, permission shithole, the world is also becoming, like, insanely wild-wast of payments in a way that people have never possibly imagined. Like, it is crazy. Like, the amount of shit-coin, like, it's like ungovernable.

You know, governments don't even know how many fucking, like, coins themselves, manage now. Like it's like it's pretty crazy out there. I love it. I love to see it. Sessions, round us out. Jeez. I mean, there's just there's so much that's that's going on in so many different facets that we covered. Again, pretty much all the way from just like basics of of day-to-day use for your average person to like some of the most complex. I need a whiff from an old, you know, paper wallet or open dime with thousands of coins on it or whatever. So we've kind of covered the gamut here. Again, I would just reiterate, I'm excited to see all of these different facets that exist

in my experience with Bitcoin. You know, I want, you know, instant payment wallets. I want on-chain cold storage. I want things like inheritance planning. And I also want to be able to be a merchant and link those things together. and also have the privacy tools. And I'm beginning to see all of those things come together in relatively convenient packages

that I can also reliably tell people, hey, this shit works. And it's actually not too heavy of a lift to get it working together. And that's what I've consistently seen over the years. I see things come out and they're kind of shitty and like half work, but you can see the promise. And then they get good on their own.

And then they get inter-degraded. together with other things that are also equally convenient. So, you know, when you're in it, it feels like it's taken forever. But I consistently see where we're headed and I'm pretty happy with it. Love it. NVK, tell everybody where they can find you and check out your stuff and what to watch for. So you could find our stuff on Twitter and on Noster. And it's at NVK, at Cold Card Wallet, at CoinK.

you know, what do we have? We have a lot more firmware coming. We have new hardware coming. We have new, new hardware coming. You know, it's like the mission doesn't end, right? It's like it's just starting. It's only been, you know, like just over a decade to reinvent the financial system. The only thing is like I always like to ask, like, please let us know.

what kind of, not what you want, but what you need in terms of features and sort of like desires and like, you know, how can we solve problems for you with our sort of technology? That's a huge deal for us. It's like actual need.

Like, you know, need to be right now. I need large font. I need large font for my over 70 people that I'm training how to use the cold card. Okay, we got you. It's coming. There's also the queue. The queue has much larger font.

But, but yes, there is more, there's larger screens coming everywhere. Beautiful. Love it. Francis, tell everybody where they can find you, where they can go get the Bull wallet. Check up Bull Bitcoin. Right. So the wallet is at wallet. Wallet.com.

The exchange is at bull bitcoin.com. The Twitter is at Bull Bitcoin underscore. I'm at Francis Poolyat underscore. Quick takeaway, by the way, is like, if you're watching this, I want you to understand that there's a lot of stuff happening. on Bitcoin. It's happening at the app layer. It's happening at the infrastructure layer. So a lot of the naysayers and shitcoin doomers are like, oh, Bitcoin, nothing's happening. It's dead. Look at the protocol doesn't change. I mean, that's not like we've demonstrated

here in this episode that it's apps chaining together that solves protocol level issues. We're not going to fork Bitcoin to magically change it. We're going to build apps and services on top of it, which achieve what the shitcoins say they want to achieve. So don't look at Zcash and Monero for privacy, whereas what we've consistently demonstrated is that we have the tools to achieve that. And in terms of what Bull Beacon is doing, it's a lot. Like, we're actually growing like immensely. We've hired four people this year. We're hiring a fifth next week. We're probably going to be adding like five to six people to the team this year. So AI is not replacing all the jobs. We still need to meet. And mostly what we're working on other than the usual stuff is

two major international expansion. So we're going to be adding two new countries to the bold Bitcoin portfolio where we operate. It's going to be fucking huge. And that should be happening in the next few months. When I first got into Bitcoin, I was overwhelmed. The jargon, the security risks, the fear that one mistake could cost everything. I remember staring at my screen and wondering, are my keys safe? Did I do this right?

That experience is why I started BTC sessions. For over a decade, this channel has helped millions of people like you learn how to use and secure Bitcoin. But I realized something. For many people, videos aren't enough. Everyone learns differently. Some need to ask questions in real time as an expert walks through their setup, their goals, and their threat model. And certain things like advanced cold storage, inheritance planning, privacy, and node or mining setups often can't be fully solved by watching another tutorial. So I built BTC mentor. I recruited the best Bikers. I recruited the best educators on the planet to work with you one-on-one.

Real experts, real answers, personalized hands-on guidance tailored to your exact situation. Whether you're brand new or building a complex setup, we meet you where you're at and walk with you step by step. By the end, you don't just hope your Bitcoin is safe. You know it is. If you're ready for that level confidence, then head to btcmentor.io and book a call with us today. If you enjoyed this episode with NVK, Francis, and Ben, please do hit that like button. It really does help us out and check out the previous episode with Matt Hill from Start 9. You're going to love it.