BTC Sessions - US Steals MicroStrategy Infinite Money Glitch Playbook? ($36T Debt WIPED OUT) | Jame Lavish/Joe Bryan/Michael Morelli

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

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What if I told you that America had a plan to use Bitcoin-backed bonds to generate over $50 trillion, which would effectively wipe out the national debt by 2045? Is Michael Saylor's micro-strategy infinite money glitch about to be executed at the nation-state level? I know this sounds crazy, but this week in Washington, the CEO of a multi-billion-dollar institutional firm just proposed that the U.S. government create $2 trillion of Bitcoin-back bonds. Let's go ahead and take a quick listen to Andrew Hans on-bit bonds at the Bitcoin for America event in Washington, D.C. this week. I'll pull up my screen here. And, of course, give us a thumbs up in the chat if you can hear.

But if you take a look at the 25th percentile compound annual. growth rate, 37% per year, which, by the way, is exactly equal to Michael's bullcase for Bitcoin in the year 2045 on a Cagger basis. That produces a government upside in this structure, and I did not plan it this way, it just turned out this way. That produces a government upside in the structure of 1776, $1.776 trillion U.S. dollars. That's after 10 years. As you extend this out to 20 years in the year 2045, the compound annual growth rate of the 25th percentile, 36.62% is, produces a government entitlement of Bitcoin that is slightly greater than $50.8 trillion, which is the expected size of the funded federal debt in the year 2045.

In other words, with this plan, we're in a position to defese the federal debt. So pretty strong words there. Today we're going to be analyzing this brilliant, a step-by-step blueprint of how America could generate that 50 trillion. But we're also maybe going to be touching on and discussing the newest Bitcoin bond product that was literally launched hours ago. So what is this product that gives investors exposure to companies with over a thousand Bitcoin in their treasury, like Microstrategie? You're not going to want to miss this comprehensive breakdown on today's show because we've assembled a sound money team composed of Dr. Debt Spiral himself, James Lavish.

What's the Problem Documentarian, the brilliant Joe Bryan, and the incredible Michael Morelli. Proof of Work, Maximilist and CEO at FitScript. Stick around, guys. It's going to be a hell of a show. I am Ben with the BTC Sessions. This is your daily session. All right, let's bring in our panel. I want to welcome to the stage, Joe Brian, Michael Morelli, and James Lavage.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to have you all on. And how are you guys doing? You having a good week, never a dull moment? It's always fun on the markets. You've got to have fun in the markets, man. Embrace of volatility. Doing amazing.

Yeah. Good to have you, Michael. And Joe, how are you? Yeah, I'm doing well. I'm doing well, thank you. I'm a few hours ahead of you guys right now, so I'm hanging on. Yeah, you're red-eyeing it for us, but I appreciate it. So we're going to get started right away.

And Joe, I teed you up here because you had dropped that. You wanted to chat a little bit about this. So I'm going to cue you up with the same question everybody gets. Why are you bullish? well for many reasons but for one in particular I mean given the last given last few days and you you led off at the start there it's it's the bit bonds

and so you know we've had you know it feels like years since Trump came in it's it's been a whirl it's been a whirlwind however you know if you zoom out and you think about the pieces that are slotting into place now. It's what makes me so excited about this. Because if you go back to the executive, the strategic Bitcoin reserve order, the wording in that, and I've got it on the screen here, is that the Secretary of Treasury and the Secretary of Commerce shall develop

strategies for acquiring additional government BTC, provided that such strategies are budget neutral and do not impose incremental costs on the United States taxpayers. Now, they've not come out and said they're going to buy it, but then fast forward to the Bitcoin Policy Institute day. You had Michael Saylor deliver another drop the mic presentation in 30 minutes where he's effectively framing not becoming the world's superpower with Bitcoin as a national security issue. And you cannot allow somebody else to own this space. See, even if you're not fully committed, even if you're not fully sold, you cannot risk it. You cannot risk it.

And then for, you know, if that wasn't compelling enough, you then have Andrew Hone step up. And very cleverly, I think for one of two reasons, perhaps, frames this very explicitly up front as a thought experiment. He says this is a thought experiment. This is not a proposal. And he's either doing that because it's a pitch for what we should be doing. Or it's we think this is what's going to happen. And we should just float it. And we see this a lot in the UK.

policies get announced a couple of weeks ahead of time in the papers if there's a public push back they get quietly dropped otherwise they become policy two weeks later this is this is standard and so the framing it is very very nice and i think it appeals to the administrations desire to secure america first on the global stage but also leave a legacy for president trump and then so that you know that leads us to what are the bit bonds what are the bitbonds what are the bit bonds and it's what's going to happen to every piece of debt on the planet over the next x period because you've effectively it allows the u.s and i'll cover in a second so in a bit more detail what they are but effectively it allows the u.s to recapitalize itself through an asset it can

it can drive the value off through its through its investment alone and so the bit bonds thought experiment is having 10 year 10 year debt issue by the government where 10% goes to buy Bitcoin and the coupon is 1% so not 4.5% which is roughly where the 10 year trades

it's 1%. Now on the face of it for the public they would think well that's a terrible coupon but then you get the full up side of Bitcoin until you recoup 4.5% compounded.

So it's like you own the 10 year and then you get 50% of the upside beyond that. And the government takes the other 50%. Now that is super interesting. A, because it lowers the borrowing cost for the government on a nominal basis. And so, you know,

on that first point, he's very clear to point out that on a net present level, it saves about $500 billion for the taxpayer. And then I go back to the executive order and I say, they shall not acquire them unless it's budget neutral. And I think, okay, well, we've just created $500 billion there to then go to buy more Bitcoin, right?

And that $500 billion is not, you know, the $200 billion of the $2 trillion raised would be to go to buy Bitcoin through the bonds. But then you've given yourself the room to buy more Bitcoin through the Strategic Reserve, which is separate from the bonds. And this is effectively giving a legitimized path, in my view, to Bitcoinizing every aspect of the federal, you know, the U.S. balance sheet, which is super, super interesting.

It gets even better because effectively, I see this as the checkmate move for U.S. Bitcoin adoption. and the reason being is that if this gets passed and we do bit bonds in the US they're going to last for 10 years it is then a

totally indefend for any politician regardless of come out and trash Bitcoin because then you're effectively anti-American right and it gets better

it gets better he's proposing that this becomes an investment for families in the US and you do it tax-free. Okay, so you get families in the US owning the national debt, getting upside participation in Bitcoin. The US becomes more naturally pro-Bitcoin. And any politician who fancied becoming anti-American from just a purely financial perspective is now also anti-family. Are you really going to be anti-family? Like that is just such a checkmate move. It is game over in the US for Bitcoin adoption.

Like it's no longer just, it's no longer a question. It just is. And the one extra thing here for me is I think of, I think of Bitcoin adoption up to this point. It's like it's like a boiling pot on a stove, right? You've got a pot, but you've got no lid on it. And you're heating it slowly from below. And it's gradually,

heating up but it's heating up gradually through the actions of the individuals. This is putting the lid on the pot. Like the lid is the government. The government is like legitimized holding Bitcoin, legitimized the risk profile of Bitcoin and put it in a tax-free wrapper for everybody. You've effectively sped up the pace at which this pot is going to boil and you've gone from individuals at the bottom, straight to governments at the top. And now it's just going to heat up everything in between. Damn. All the corporates, all the banking sector are going to find ways to inject Bitcoin to absolutely everything.

And so it's hard to be, it's hard to be more bullish after seeing this in the US, these last few days. I just wish the UK wasn't asleep right now. Yeah. I've got a question. for you. Obviously, again, this is a relatively early state. We're starting to see things like this kind of tossed out ideas, all this. But I mean, you're right. It feels like so much has happened inside of the past month and a half. It's insane. And so, I mean, I guess my question to yourself and the rest of the panel is, and I'll kind of tee it up with,

We have an interesting skew in terms of, we'll call them pro-bitcoin slash crypto people in both the House and the Senate. And based on, there's a website called standwithcrypto.org, and you can literally go in and you can choose a stance like pro-ante-neutral. And you can kind of check who is supportive, somewhat supportive, strongly supportive. and you can base it on their actual role in government. So you can separate like senator, representative, other types of political figures. And it looks like somewhere in and around for the House, it's like 65% is in some way supportive of Bitcoin and or the greater crypto ecosystem. And the Senate, it sits in and around 61%, if I'm not mistaken, when I was peeking at the numbers there. could be off a little bit, but don't trust verify, go to the website,

Jack and check other places. But how are you guys feeling? Like, do you think that some ground is going to be made here, that something the trigger is going to be pulled on some sort of federal initiative like this? Yeah, I mean, Michael, I guess I'll jump in here, Joe. I mean, I love this idea. I was actually with Andrew last week up in Jackson Hole. really smart guy. Very impressive and well-spoken, really, really liked hanging out with him

and hearing some of his ideas. Look, this is nascent. It's early. And it's a, it's a, you know, groundbreaking kind of idea. He's been doing this. He just raised a fund that is battery finance, that he's doing it with like commercial real estate, adding a, collateral, a Bitcoin collateral aspect to the loans. Similar thing, I wrote all about it. We won't get into it. But the bottom line is, like, this is, this could be fantastic, brilliant gainsmanship. And, you know, like, this is, I mean, this is literally, we're getting into that period now with Trump signing

the executive order adding the Bitcoin Reserve. Now you're kind of like all of the other nations are on notice like you pointed out already. Right? So now they're like, well, the U.S. is

really embracing Bitcoin in particular. Yes, they establish a stockpile for other tokens, but there's no, there's no function to add to that stockpile outside of just seizures from, from illicit or illegal activity. So it's kind of a rounding error. And the obvious first way to add to Bitcoin to the balance sheet is to sell some of that and buy Bitcoin with it. I don't know if

they'll do that. We'll see. But that's the obvious first thing to do. But embracing it is now, now you're you're in that period right so you have all the other countries staring at us wondering should they be participating as well should they be mining china russia you know um then you've got all the bricks countries south africa brazil uh russia outside of just russia india um south africa you know they they are all trying to find ways to operate outside of the u.s treasury well now this kind of pulls them back in, right? So it is, it is, I think it's a brilliant idea. And I love the idea of taking advantage of the volatility, just like Michael Saylor did. And so what people, they say the money glitch. It's not, and boy, Michael really hates it when people say that, man, he snaps

at people when they say that sometimes. But the reality is it's more of, what he's done is he's found a way to monetize volatility by adding it to his own balance sheet and and it has a value right volatility has a value especially in a rising asset and so that volatility allows him to issue bonds at zero percent rate now it's a special deal on now this is where it kind of differs this is where the the path kind of differs on wall street it's it's a different buyer for convertible bonds because convertible arbitrage traders hedge funds are the ones who are swallowing most of that, not all of it, but they're the ones trading around that. And they're able to make, they're able to create profits just from that volatility, intra expiration of or intramaturity of that debt, that debt vehicle. They can trade around it by shorting stock as the bond goes up in value or the stock goes up in value.

they can short it as it comes in they can they can cover it you know just trade around it that's called delta trading for people who are sophisticated out there and uh and so you won't really have the opportunity to do that with this as much you know because it you know your typical person's not going to be out there shorting treasuries but um you know the the or you'd have to be shorting bitcoin around it is is what you'd have to be doing so it's kind of you know um but the the reality is you're monetizing that volatility to the upside by saying, okay, give them a 1% interest. That keeps the interest costs down for the United States. And then you're splitting the upside above four and a half percent. So you give them the four and a half percent, the bondholder. And then, you know, the government

retains 50 percent of the of the Bitcoin gains. So really interesting. Again, it's early. I mean, we've got to, I love it. I think that we should get some momentum around it. Um, there we need to figure out ways to, I guess, uh, the need to figure out ways to entice people to buy US treasuries because I love what those is doing, but the getting to a balanced budget is a tall order and we're going to continue borrowing money. And so that is a big deal. And for those who are not aware, um, you know, our our budget for the first quarter just came out and I kind of took a snapshot of it here somewhere so I can be intelligent when I quote this. So the first five months of operation in the United States, we've already spent, we ran a deficit

just in February of $307 billion. Okay. So, you know, that's a problem. And so our deficit so far, just this year is, let's see, $1.15 trillion in the first five months. Okay. Now, we've saved $200 billion, right? So I'm T and Joe up here. This is like, we need people to buy treasures.

That's just the bottom line. And so what the government and the opponents of Bitcoin are saying, is that, well, it's going to attack the dollar. It's going to attack the dollar. We don't want that. Well, the defense and Cynthia Lummis, another, I was talking to her maybe three weeks ago in New York, and the defense of Bitcoin for the treasuries, look, we need to find ways to show up the dollar.

That's what we need to do because people are not buying treasuries because they don't want to hold this asset that's debasing so rapidly, right? And that's the problem with the BRICS nations. twofold. They don't want their assets seized and they don't want to hold this this asset that's being depreciated so rapidly. So how do you do that? You add Bitcoin to the balance sheet of the United States that strengthens our balance sheet and so, you know, we have people who are willing to buy bonds. Anyway, that's a long way of saying that it's still early. But who would have thought that at the beginning of last year when Cynthia Lummis came out with the Bitcoin Reserve for the

United States that flash forward just just over a year later boom we have one and we don't have a function to buy it yet we're working on that but and now her bill has co-sponsors and it's going to find its way through Congress so everybody who's laughing at the bit bonds everybody who thinks Andrew is is crazy um they're wrong and this is real it's just early so I just want to temper some enthusiasm a little bit because it is early. But this is a real idea and it could take hold. I got a question for you, for all of you. Did you anticipate this correction? In Bitcoin? Yeah. Did you anticipate the drop down to 70 or is it 76, 77? No. Well, the drawdown down to 76,000 from the high of 110 to 30% drawdown. The answer is

no, I did not expect it, but I didn't not expect it. I mean, it's what, it's what Bitcoin does. You have, you have pullbacks on every single, every single you call these bill, bull runs, you know, you have pullbacks. It's consolidation. It's natural. It's normal. You have a lot of OGs that are selling up around $100,000 level. They're sitting on millions and millions of millions of millions, millions of dollars.

And they're like, I'm going to cash them this in. I'm going to go get that house and a few cars and a couple of boats or whatever I'm going to do. And I'm going to go cash this in. I'm going to get some assets, maybe some land. Maybe I'll buy a big ranch, you know, in Texas. And so, or Wyoming. But so you have some of that going on. Not shocking.

I was surprised, though. I was surprised to see so much of that. I, you know, I think we all think it's going much, much higher. So for me, I was, I was surprised to see so many OGs offloading at that mark. Yeah. I mean, when you, we're in a bubble, though, on Twitter for sure in our little circles here. A lot of OGs are not even,

they're completely off the map. You know, they're off the grid. So, but going to your question that it's, the timing was a little bit funny. Right? I agree. Yeah. Right.

So you had this massive run up from what just before Trump was elected, started looking like he was going to be elected, you know, in early October. And you had this run. and then boom, it broke out when he was elected. Why is that? And I'm not going to say what my enthusiasm is, Ben. But why is that?

It's because, you know, this administration is pro-crypto, pro-Bitcoin. And it got ahead of itself. I mean, let's face it, it ran over 100. And then it bounced around and came back under that level, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, you know. And it just, it just, that's a massive mental level. And so I was actually expecting it to consolidate in the 85 to 95 level for a long time. You know, I didn't expect it just to run over and hold it. Now that said, I mean, it took it aggressively.

And so that was a little bit, that was actually a little bit surprising to me how quickly it took it and held it. But then when it came in, I expected some consolidation. What I didn't expect is for it to come right back down to the high 70s when, we had the announcement of the reserve. Like that was a surprise. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. But when you step back and you look at it, why did that happen?

In my opinion, and I don't mean to be on a diatribe here. So anybody, please feel free to interrupt me. But my opinion was that it was priced in that the reserve was going to be signed into an executive order, but it was going to include some way to buy Bitcoin. Whether it was $50 billion or $100 billion out of the sovereign fund, whatever it would be, there was going to be some function there. But there wasn't. And so that disappointed people.

And just on the headline of it, what do you mean this digital asset stockpile? What is that? You know, now are you a bunch of shit coiners too? Like, what are we doing? And so I think that frustrated people. And really, the momentum players were playing it for, okay, we're going to have this, with this jump right back over 100,000, get up to 110, 120, because all of a sudden, you know, the government's going to be buying it.

They announced that they are not, in fact, going to be buying it. So it dumped. So that amount that they expected for it to go up multiplied by the probability of that happening is the price that was already embedded in the stock. And once that probability did not occur, event-driven arbitrageers dumped it. And they're like, all right, well, the event didn't happen, get out. And that's literally what happens there. There are different players in any market.

Sure. I would not be recommending anybody to be trading Bitcoin. Once you understand why you want Bitcoin, you should be buying and not selling it. So, you know, I tend not to look at the Bitcoin price very often and tend to be happy when it goes down. rather than worry that it's going down. But, you know, I think, you know, I do agree with James. There's probably a bit of long speculation coming in the market, looking for a big announcement that didn't happen.

However, I think they need to read through the wording. They've created unlimited room to buy Bitcoin. Instead of having, it's a massive positive event. It is. Yeah, yeah, you know, it is. Massively positive. This is my point. It's actually more positive because they've created a framework through which they can buy Bitcoin.

If it's budget neutral and it has no incremental costs on the US taxpayer and then you go and pitch Bitbonds and you can create as much headline room on a net present value basis, you can basically allow yourself to buy as much Bitcoin as you want. Because you can turn around and say, look, we're reducing the national debt here by doing so. that is that is that is that is a slam dunk it's just not I know and so I I would say I would say

um on the question of the dollar versus going I mean Jamie flagged the two the two issues I think that people have one it's sort of worthless anyway you're just going to hit the big red button and print more of these

print more fear tellers and just wash everybody out any you're going to take the assets from us if we're a foreign foreign country and we don't just hold the line with whatever the u.s says like you know you've let the cat out the bag by trying to seize all the assets over the ukraine crisis like who's going to trust the monumentally idiotic like literally monotonically idiotic it's it's it's it's ludicrous actions like it it beggars belief and so by by by injecting bitcoin into u.s treasuries you can solve part of that you can effectively recapitalize the u.s balance sheet with bitcoin and then force everyone else to do the same and then you become by default the far and away the global superpower here

here we've already we've already begun the game theory we started it with the bitcoin that's our that's underway now this just this could ratchet it up the next level it's going to take a minute but it could yeah absolutely it doesn't solve your second problem it doesn't solve your second problem because people don't still don't trust you they don't trust you and they would much rather have bitcoin right because then they don't have to always just do what the us says right and so so i think at some point and you know listening to sailors presentation, he was very, very clear that the US is not competing with Bitcoin. Now, I think that's largely because of the intended audience of the presentation.

You know, to draw that distinction is very helpful for the conversation. And in the short term, it is true. In the long term, it is absolutely not true. Absolutely not true. In the long term, Bitcoin is going to, to recapitalize the dollar, but ultimately people are just going to want the Bitcoin in the long term. Because of the second, because of the second. And once you've let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in again. Right. So you can position the US as the global superpower by

leveraging Bitcoin, but you can't capture all the qualities of Bitcoin and put them into the dollar just by owning Bitcoin. And I think that's where the, that's where the rubber hits the road. But that problem is way down the line. That's way down the road. Exactly. So I just want to, yeah, like, let's make sure that we understand. Like, I'm not calling for hyper-bitcoinization in the next five years. And certainly this is not going to, this would actually stave that off a little bit.

Me, it would be good for a Bitcoin adoption broadly. But, you know, it would be good for the dollar for a long time, too. So. He's going to make the dollar very strong. Yeah. Very strong. And, you know, I don't see much talk about what that, what happens there. Because, you know, Trump is trying to rebuild the industrial base in the US, right, through these policies. And if the US just buys all the Bitcoin, the dollar becomes super strong.

And then it becomes much harder to drive exports. And then it's going in the opposite direction to what you really want to achieve from an industrial base perspective. unless you are trying to internalize as much of the economy as possible, which, you know, you have that counterbalance effect. You know, if all the families in the US own these Bitcoin bonds and Bitcoin gets driven through the roof, then there's a massive amount of wealth creation in the U.S. And you don't have to rely on exports.

So there's a counterbalancing effect. But there are second and third other things here, which, you know, very hard to think about the implications of. I just, of the one thing I wanted to say in regards to all these announcements, I'm seeing a bit of a parallel in that right now because it is, you know, the Republicans that have been very friendly to Bitcoin. And you get a little bit, because everything is so partisan right now, you get a little bit of that knee jerk, you know, if Trump likes it, then it's Beanie Baby's kind of thing.

But one of my favorite quotes from Jeff Booth is somebody asks them, you know, what's the hardest thing to reckon with or what's the worst thing about Bitcoin? And he said that the worst thing about Bitcoin is that your enemy using it makes it better and stronger for you. And, you know, it's, it's, and I think we're seeing a little bit of that right now from the EU in and around the US announcements because the EU and the ECB, they just, they just, they didn't say, hey, we need to catch up. They basically said, we're good, we're going to govern. me harder daddy. And they like I'm looking at a quote here from Pascal Donahue Donahue. I'm not sure if I'm saying that name right. But he said policy developments and other jurisdictions can have

important consequences for us here in Europe. These discussions are fundamentally linked to our own autonomy and the resilience of our currency. And they've basically fast-tracked their digital euro to launch in October of this year. So like rather than being like, like, wow, we are going to be left in the dust if we don't start looking at this. And they're like, you know what? We're going to go hard the other direction. Full draconian and opticon. Everybody jump on our CVDC so we can control even more than we already do, which is astounding.

I mean, I feel like we're all pretty freedom-minded individuals here, obviously, latching on the Bitcoin. But it is an interesting dynamic when somebody sees. somebody using something and they don't like the person and they can't differentiate the person and the tool. That's going to bite a lot of people that are incapable of zooming out, I think. I mean, just encapsulated socialism in that statement, I think, just generally. This is Europe. This is Europe. The first instinct is we've got to regulate it. It's the same man oh man i'm sorry guys it's no no this is a that's right i'll i'll chuck a mute on you

is it midnight there that they only go off between midnight and three in the morning i don't understand that's a faulty one my apologies guys oh we're good we're good well jens i'm i'm conscious of time and i want to get to everybody's topic so i am going to do a rotation here in just a moment. Everybody in the chat, of course, thank you guys for being here. If you have questions or things that you'd like us to bring up as the topics go on here, feel free to drop them in there and I'll try and highlight a couple as we get later into the show. But of course, if you're watching this live, smash that like button. It really does help. And we're going to do a quick sponsor shout out for about one minute. And Michael, when we come back, I'm queuing you

up with the same question everybody gets. So we'll see you guys. One moment. Bitcoin Well is the best place to be buying and selling Bitcoin in Canada and the U.S. And now with Bitcoin Well Infinite, it's also the best place to be making large buys at their OTC desk of over $50,000. Their white glove service gives you fast transactions, no slippage, and the lowest fees. You can scan the QR code on the screen or simply head to Bitcoinwell.com slash BTC sessions to sign up today.

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If you're looking to make use of your capital, don't sell your Bitcoin, borrow against it. You can head over to debify.com to check them out or simply scan the QR code on the screen. All right, we are back in. Before we get to Michael's reason, I'm going to give away a quick little bit of stats here. If you've got a lightning wallet handy, you can scan the QR code on the screen right now. Whoever scans it first is going to steal the stats from everybody else. over at Bitcoinwell.com. And you can check them out in the show notes down below if you want to see.

But anybody with a lightning wallet can scan that right now. If you do steal the stats from everybody else, let us know in the chat. But with that, we're going to move on. And Michael, I'm going to toss it to you. And I'm going to cue you up. Same question. Why are you bullish? So, Ben, before I answer that question and talk about the most important self-custy,

which is health, in my opinion, I have a question. I have a question for the listeners. So it's clear that we don't trust the financial system until we opt out for Bitcoin. My question for the listeners are or is, do you trust the health care system? Do you trust the health care system? The financial system is broken. Are we aware yet that the health care system is also just as broken? Yeah.

I mean, you see it. You see the dissolution of trust in all of our major institutions right now. I feel it. You know, see if you've touched on it in Fiat standard. The Fiat food book was fantastic, but I'll let you continue. So you asked me the question,

why am I bullish on Bitcoin? And, you know, I chose to think, how do I tie that to health, right? As an advocate for health is the primary self-custody.

I think Bitcoin is the healthiest financial system, right? So kind of like optimizing your body, It's about sovereignty, resilience, and long-term wealth instead of relying on a broken, centralized system. And so for me, and we get a lot of guys who come to us who are extremely wealthy, but very broken on the inside. And they give everything that they have made back just to get healthy again. And so why not take care of and take control of your health while you're taking control of your health while you're taking control of your help or your wealth.

I like that this ties in very well with, I mean, we were just chatting before the show started. You, myself and Joe, right, as James has come in as well. But there's a number of different slogans and kind of like an underlying ethos in and around Bitcoin for a lot of people. So one is don't trust, verify. The other one is proof of work. another one is low time preference or not going for instant gratification but putting in the work now so that you can achieve more later or enjoy the fruits of your labor at a much basically grow the fruits of your labor before enjoying them later on sacrificing the now for the later and I mean I love saying this to Joe

before and to you before. I love it when people come into Bitcoin, they get, oh, shit, okay, so the money's broken and the downstream effects of that and how that can affect our mannerisms and how we run our lives and what we do with our paychecks day to day and how you can approach things differently. And rather than the, I guess the ethos that we were born into this. fiat world where it's like spend your dollars before they they lose their purchasing power and just buy the trinkety crap and it doesn't matter doom spend because you've never going to afford

a home anyways, that kind of thing. But there is a mechanism through which you can save for the future and actually begin to plan and put in the hard work. I tend to go back to three key tenants, provide value for others, spend less than you earn and save in money that nobody can print. And so like these these overarching themes of low time preference and don't trust, verify and prove of work, a lot of Bitcoiners will take those and then start applying those lessons to other parts of their lives. And this is where health comes in. And actually I'm so, I mean, Michael, maybe maybe just quickly.

A hundred push up a day until 100. Yeah. Let me add a little bit about... Look and lean. Yeah, chat about what you do and then also kind of like how that that crossover with Bitcoin with you and how you kind of drew that connection. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, right, what good is financial independence if you don't have your health independence, right? you know, a lot of people will spend their entire life amassing wealth only to give it back to get their health.

And so one of the things that we do, which is, which is awesome, right? So you've got the don't trust, verify. We're test and don't guess. Right. So we're going to measure 124 biomarkers, right? So we're going to look at the data, 80 pages of data, and then put together all of your nutrition, your training, your supplementation to fully optimize you. We've got a couple of Bitcoiners and you know, you came in and you kind of shared some of your goals.

And I said, well, what if we take it to the next level and really look and not just make it about how you look on the outside, which I know is really important to you, right? The better you look, the more confident you are. But what if simultaneously, Ben, and this is what we're doing for you, is we optimize the inside so that we know that we're moving the needle on your biomarkers, truly optimizing you from the inside out. And so, yeah, as a Bitcoin or myself, who wasn't always a maxi, went down the rabbit hole a handful of years ago and it became a maxi, they cross so nicely. Because without your health, you can't spend the wealth. And so it's just a message that I love to preach. And as someone who has a mission to advance and elevate human health worldwide, you know, what better community to do it than, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the coiner's who are very, very like-minded.

I can tell you one thing being the elder here. And having been an athlete, you know, uh, it's easy, it was easier for me to stay or get back, write it back into shape after periods of, of, you know, dormancy. But, uh, it is not easy. Once you hit like 40, you better stay on it. I mean, like, you better stay on it because it is it becomes exponentially difficult to get back into you know i mean we're not talking about you know bodybuilding and and uh being in in perfect shape of being healthy you know i mean it's like you you just take four weeks off you can be training for three months six months nine months you you get covid you have to travel you're sitting in your desk and suddenly you look up and it's three four weeks later and you haven't been at the gym good luck

Good luck. Yeah, I get that. If you're my age and, you know, like I'm over 50 and it is it, it, I stay on it because you have to. So the only advice I would say is stay active, eat well, all that stuff, but really stay active, you know, obviously. Yeah. It boils down to five things. You know, the Fitzgerb foundational habits. And I think the biggest domino and everybody says, you know, train and eat good. And those are great. But what a lot of people don't, talk about is sleep, especially in my space. Because sleep isn't sexy, right? You can't sell sleep.

You can sell a beautiful body and biceps and six-pack abs, training and nutrition and, you know, follow and hit your macros. But sleep is really the single biggest domino. And I know that a lot of bitcoins and a lot of people on X don't sleep very well. Well, here's, but here's the thing, right, Michael? if you're working out regularly, eating well, not eating right before bed, not having too much alcohol, you will sleep better. I find that the periods where I'm not sleeping as well, it's because I've been traveling.

It's because I've been plugged into the screen and been under, you know, stressful environment for days of the time. And I wake up, I'm like, 2 o'clock in the morning. I'm like, I have got to work out tomorrow or I'm not going to sleep well again. And so naturally you work out, you end up sleeping better. At least that's been my experience. Quick, quick hack while you were just mentioned at looking at screens, I highly, highly, highly recommend blue light blocking glasses.

Yeah. So the sun comes down. As soon as the sun comes down, I'm mimicking that in my house. The lights come down in my house. Yeah. These are actually red bulbs and then I put these on. So for those of you that are on your screen night, just make sure you're protecting your eyes because this is also going to make sleep so much easier.

Yeah. Blue light wakes you up. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Michael, I've got a question. How do you, because within your client base, you must have mostly, I guess, non-bitcoins. But then also a good chunk of Bitcoiners. You know, given that you've got a bit of both, how do you see any differences in terms of the mentality, in terms of the way they approach the health, the more receptive, they are less receptive? And to build on that, the people who take this seriously from your non-bitcoins, they end up becoming bitcoins?

Great question. So now that Ben is in the community, we're going to. Oh, well, that's going to change a bit as well. Yeah. We're going to convert everybody. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to convert everybody to Bitcoin to be in Bitcoiners.

Those are great questions. You know, I think the people, the guys who have the greatest success anchor down to a really big why, right? The bigger the reason, the bigger the result. So you've got guys coming in on the brink of divorce, you know, kids aren't listening to them. They're really out of shape. They're failing their families, right? They just feel like a complete and total failure.

And they've just had enough. They come in. We make a commitment. And then six months later, right, they've changed their entire lives. Their kids are eating healthy. Their marriage has been restored. And now they're feeling on top of the world. So it really just depends on where that person is at on their journey and just how bad they feel.

Yeah. It's, I feel like a lot of Bitcoiners are, they're kind of exuding the qualities that you said where, you know, they come to Bitcoin and then they realize like, oh, crap, I got my finances in order. But I've got some catching up to do in and around my fitness. and just realizing. I mean, for me, it was, it was a little bit of that, I suppose. Like, I was, I was healthy-ish, but especially, like, the eating and stuff like that is just, is a struggle for me. And so, beginning to take it seriously.

And also, you know, reading things that make you realize, like, how screwed up our food system truly is and what garbage you're ingesting regularly. and that the guidance is to keep doing that basically and to lift all personal responsibility from anybody to like, oh, it's not that, you know, it's not that you have any control of this. It's just natural, it's hereditary, and you're just kind of stuck that way. So don't even try, take OZemphic instead. Like that's where we just did a coaching session today on epigenetics, right? And you get that a lot, right?

you know, diabetes runs in my family, cancer runs in my family. Well, you may have the gene for cancer, but your lifestyle is going to pull that trigger. Right. And so lifestyle, so we always say, you know, genes load the gun, but lifestyle pulls, ultimately pulls the trigger. And like you said, I mean, we can't get away from it because it, you know, it's in our air, it's in our water, it's in our food. So not doing anything about it is, really just putting in it in a in a tough place long term now gents i don't want any of us to get too big of an ego but we've got glowing praise in the chat here from bitcoin deb uh she does let us know

that bitcoin men are the most attractive man we're we're up there with her husband so that's good to um well michael i i i guess just in the realm of fitness before we do a rotation here. I want to give you a second for those that are kind of like I said in that realm, maybe watching this in the Bitcoin realm that are realizing like, hey, you know, personal finance is just part of it. And I need to get my other shit in order, namely my health so that I can be there for my family. Do you have a particular piece of advice or something that somebody could immediately pull the trigger on to start moving in the right direction? So I do. And the first thing that comes to mind, right, is people are always waiting for the

right time to feel a certain way or to not be busy. And the truth is that you're always going to be busy. So learning how to take care of yourself while you're busy is actually the best thing you can do because you're never going to not be busy. We need to stop overcomplicating this. It's not some diet that you have to follow, right? Just stick to whole single source foods without labels. Get your water in, get your sleep right, go on walks and get some sun. It really can be that easy. And, you know, I'll close this with you're never going to think your way into good action.

Right? You're never going to, okay, okay, it's move your way into good thinking. You move your way into good thinking. So go out and go on a walk with your kids. Go out in nature. Look, we're seeing, we've run labs now for hundreds and hundreds of people. And we're seeing some really gnarly things in people. And it only gets worse as you get older if you don't take care of yourself now.

You know, cancer doesn't happen when you're 70, right? It starts at 30 and 40. And then it continues to manifest itself as a result of, your daily habits and choices. You guys, I think we all know where Bitcoin is headed and your fear on this show, you probably have some, maybe you have a lot. If we know where Bitcoin is headed,

why not take control of our health so that we get an opportunity to really relinquish the benefits that are coming as a result of Bitcoin and this beautiful apex asset that we have? Yeah, be the Apex Predator. and own the apex predator of money, right? That's what I, that's, yeah, absolutely. And I know just one more thing, right?

So as an ex-cocaine and, you know, someone who was addicted to cocaine and alcohol for the better part of a decade. At 31, I found out my daughter was going to be born. And that changed everything for me. I was extremely broke, living with my mom. And I started making videos on YouTube. I amassed a huge following in the millions

on Instagram and YouTube and here. And it started, with fitness fitness was the vehicle that changed my life and so if any of you are struggling with addiction i traded drugs for dumbbells and it changed my life in ways that i i could never even imagine you know initially it was i just wanted to look good and i wanted to set a six-pack abs but that turned into opportunities and discipline like i never thought was possible and now you know i have exude this confidence and what i've done is i've taken the same discipline that i've applied in health and fitness and I've applied it in finance.

I've applied it in business. I've applied it throughout other areas of my life. And I'm a completely different human being as a result of just picking up those damn dumbbells. That's great. I love it. Thank you, Michael. I enjoy it. And I'm looking forward to get my blood work back here, having to sit down with my person next week and continue.

I'm about a week and a half-ish two weeks into the program. And it kicked my ass last week. I was pretty sore. Not going to lie. But I've been eating well and very excited. So when you get your blood work back, so Paul Burgess, he's my chief functional medicine officer, he's the one that's going to go over your labs for you. It's going to blow your mind.

It's going to absolutely blow your mind. You're going to learn things. And there will probably be some things where you're like, oh shit okay you're gonna see the trajectory when you get your labs back the trajectory right that you're on is gonna slap you in the face right you're like okay cool now i really and you've already made the change but imagine the guy who comes in and hasn't made the changes yeah right and now they see some things blood sugar regulation cholesterol is out of the roof inflammation markers metabolism thyroid hormones are out of whack you really get hit with this and and i think that's the reason

why or one of the major reasons why we have so much success is because you get all this data back and there's a level of certainty that you don't get anywhere else because it's not just, oh, I want to look good. Here's some macros for you. It's like, well, here's what's wrong. And if you don't do these things, this is where you're headed and where you're headed doesn't really look that good. Yeah. I love the parallel. But last thing I'll say before we do a rotation here. I love the parallel of you guys doing the don't guess test and the don't trust verify. Like it's exactly like you actually get the information in front of you and act upon it instead of just like, you know, pissing in the wind and seeing what happens. So yeah. Anyways, gentlemen, we're going to do a final rotation. James, I'm coming to you in just a moment.

We're going to give a one minute shout out to our sponsors. Everybody in the chat. Everybody in the chat. Again, thank you for being here. Make sure you are smashing that like button. It helps so, so much and give some love to the panel, to Joe, to Michael, to James. James will be back in one minute for you. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your Bitcoin on mobile,

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All right, we are back in and surprise, surprise, we got another 210 sats. I'll leave that up for a few seconds. Get those lightning wallets out. Whoever scans it first will snag the sats and steal them from everyone else. And if you need to, you can scroll back. But if you get an error, somebody else got them first. But with that, we are going to do our final. rotation and James I'm coming to you same question everybody gets why are you bullish oh man well

a few reasons but uh Michael hit on one of them the volatility of price has been the gift for for me and my hedge fund in particular so um you know for those who who don't know I I co-managed the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund and so we have a lot of public investments and we trade around, you know, our Bitcoin, thank you, our Bitcoin treasury as well to move in and out of some of these higher beta opportunities to Bitcoin. So that's been good. But really, broadly, I am really bullish just about Bitcoin long term. I'm super, I would say confident. You know, optimistic is not really the word. It's bullish is not really the word. I am just confident. that Bitcoin adoption is going to accelerate into this year and through this year and into next year.

What that does to price, you know, it's going to whip around. Bitcoin does that. But the adoption is what's important and people understanding is what's important because that long term will help Bitcoin adoption. And obviously the price to go higher, which is good for all of us who own Bitcoin. And really what the only thing is really happening is all the fiat. is either debasing against it or Bitcoin is demonetizing other assets in the world. So why would that happen and why am I bullish about that? Because we have massive tailwinds that we started hinting on in Joe's conversation.

And some of that is, you know, where we've got the new administration. That's huge. So let's just put that aside for a second. Before that, we had gap accounting rules changed. That's massive for companies who want to own Bitcoin. You know, there's just so there's a lot of things going on here. that are great for Bitcoin that are not really fully priced in. You know, companies before they had to, if they bought Bitcoin, they had to hold it as an impaired

asset. So they had to hold it on their balance sheet as either the cost or the lowest price it went to. And so it was brutal. And so you could see it on micro strategy, now strategies, a balance sheet of what it did to it. Now you market a mark to market, just like any other real asset. So that's been a, that's a big deal. And there are some companies that are on the sidelines that didn't want to own Bitcoin because they didn't want to deal with that.

So that's one thing. Another thing is, you know, Sab 121 is really the biggest thing in my mind that is going to impact Bitcoin in the short term like this year. So the full repeal of it. For those who don't know what that is, it was an SEC bulletin that Gensler kind of did an end zone run around Congress to to legislate through enforcement, which is absolute utter fucking bullshit. And Congress went ballistic on it. And they said, wait, you got like, what are you doing? You're like rogue. You know, that is, no, we're repealing it. And they voted to repeal it.

And then what happened? Biden got in there and signed a veto of the repeal, like a moron that he, you know, continued to be, you know, driven by the anti-crypto army people from Elizabeth Warren, you know, forget about politics. Just the stupidity around those decisions was just mind-numbing. So now flash forward, you have Trump in office. You got now the SEC, Gensler's gone, and they just walk away from Sab 121. What does that mean for people who are asking? Well, it means that, now banks can hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet as an asset, not just a liability. And they can create products around it and not have the threat of enforcement or massive audits from the SEC because of doing business in the crypto and Bitcoin world.

This is a really, really, really big deal. I know we don't want to see the banks take over Bitcoin. They're not going to, but they're going to allow individuals to buy Bitcoin right through their regular platform Wells Fargo, Citibank, Chase, you know, I mean, you're going to, you're able to just jump on there and buy Bitcoin through it. They'll cussied it for you. You know, you might make a yield on it. Look, this is not for self-sovereign people. This is your first step in. This is how you get people into Bitcoin. You know, you've got a lot of people around here right around me that are like, I'm going to buy it, I get a wallet. And it's a

signing device. There's a wallet. Is I'm sending it somewhere? Am I sending it somewhere? We're like, well, I don't understand. I can't see it. I mean, like, what is this thing? Well, you know, the ETFs, those are a great tailwind also. We talked about that. That's in the price right now, but it's also a tailwind. But to have the banks be able to introduce this to their customers, offer to the customers, and then build products around it.

This is a big deal. So for the for the Bitcoin adoption, Bitcoin price, it's a really big deal because now they're going to be able to have lending products, collateral products, you know, you might be able to say, okay, I got 10 Bitcoin. I'm going to put it on my Chase platform. I'm going to borrow, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars against it and I'll be able to go do some things I want to do, pay that money back. And I never had to sell my Bitcoin, never had to take the tax hit on it, never had to get out of the game, you know, because I don't want to sell it. You don't want to sell your Bitcoin, just like I think Joe was saying before, you don't, you have to be exposed. You know, you don't want to be, have your exposure. We've seen how

85 or 90% of the Bitcoin moves happen in just a dozen days throughout the year for every year. Like it's you have to have exposure. And so that's a big deal for people who don't are not self-custying or not working on, you know, with projects or products that are out there that are kind of on the fringes. This is mainstream. This is helping push it mainstream. And here's another thing. It'll stop the bank heads like JP Morgan, Jamie Diamond from just relentlessly at

attacking it. Why? Well, suddenly they're making a lot of money off it. Yeah. That's all that nice. Suddenly you've got another very think out there who's like, hey man, we can make a lot of money with me. So let's let's adopt it. Let's stop spreading the fear, uncertainty, and doubt around it. Let's actually help, you know, educate people on it. Let's put that product in our in our salesmen's hands so they can help people understand it. it's just you're getting them on your side so this is where you know they first they fight you right so they've been fighting but now they're like oh man this is not going away we have got the government's doing it you know black rock is doing it like wait we can't do it yet well why can't we well sab 121 well

that puts us in the crosshairs of the SEC well that's gone now so that's taken off the table so that also helps eliminate choke point 2.0, which I personally have experienced. It was brutal with my hedge fund, onboarding LPs, limited partners, having them try to wire money to my hedge fund, and they just canceled. They get sent back. They get refused. And then, you know, threatened to be debanked because they're trying to send money to some, you know, fraudulent crypto firm, even though we are listed in Delaware. We're, you know, incorporated in Delaware. We have a license to do business out there in Boston and Nevada. You know, like we're United States company and we are, you know, we're under SEC

regulation. We're a 3C1 obvious. We have, we have U.S. bank as our banking platform. We have RBC, a GSI bank. It's like a globally systematic important bank is banking us. And they still refuse to send the money because, you know, crypto. Well, that's kind of being taken off the table now too. And that sob 121 being repealed, big deal.

that helps do that as well. So these are some of the things I'm super excited about. And then when you put the Bitcoin, the strategic reserve out there, the things we were talking about with Joe at the beginning of the show, those are just additional tailwinds that are great for Bitcoin long term. So getting back to Michael's point before, wow, do you surprise that's drawn down? Surprise that drew down this much so quickly at this point, a little bit. Shocked, no. It's an opportunity, though, because you have all these tailwinds that are going on that are going to carry this thing, you know, through this economic cycle, whatever it ends up being, whatever the Fed ends up doing, we know one thing. They're going to print more money. They're going to expand the money supply. The money supply will expand,

which means you have to have your money in something that's not debasing. Gold is over $3,000 for that reason. And now you've got Bitcoin is, it's been super volatile. It's had a breather here. But this consolidation to me is healthy and it's going to be great for the long run. So that in essence is my mosaic of why I'm so bored. Well done. I have a question that I've always wanted to ask super savvy Bitcoiners. With regards to how you purchase Bitcoin, are you 100% in Bitcoin pulling out cash when you need it? Are you allocating a certain percentage of your income to Bitcoin?

Are you DCAing? How do you effectively continue to buy Bitcoin, assuming you still are? I borrow dollars. I don't sell my Bitcoin. If I don't have to, I do not sell my Bitcoin. So my hedge fund's a different thing. I can't buy like we're on a Bitcoin treasury there. I don't like that's different.

But personally, I have personal line of credit, credit line on my house. You know, borrowing dollars at under 10%, you know, anywhere from 2% to 7% in the last few years, not selling Bitcoin has been great. That's been the right move. And then when you make Fiat, you send it back, you pay off that line of credit and you're,

you know, but you don't have to sell what you're, you see what I'm saying? Sure, yeah, absolutely. borrow dollars. But that's me. And I make sure that I'm in a position where I know that I can pay that back.

Yep. And I know I'm well covered with Bitcoin, if there was some sort of personal financial disaster, that I'm well covered, that can take care of it. Like, not financial advice, but if you can just, like, every person is different. But if you can manage your monthly expenses and know exactly what your obligations are, what your liabilities are, where you're out on your ski tips, if you're not sleeping well at night because of Bitcoin volatility,

you probably have too much exposure because you need that money for something. else. Otherwise, you wouldn't be too worried about it. So yeah. So that's kind of, yeah. I wasn't definitely not sell your, I definitely wasn't implying say your Bitcoin. I guess I'll rephrase the question. Well, you're saying you may all against it. Yeah. Well, no, I, yeah. What I was saying is, is so you have all, so you earn, you put it all into Bitcoin. So you're literally, you're effectively 100% Bitcoin at all times, only peeling off what you need to pay your bills. No, I'm, I'm not like that because I know that short term I need some, I have liquid. needs that I can't I don't want to deal with the volatility of the of that capital I need in

short term sure you know you need chunks of liquidity uh short term you you you need to have that just in US T bills yeah you know the T but like the the probability of the T bill not being paid back you know for that to the fault would be so it's so low and it would be so catastrophic that I I mean I'm not even I wouldn't be worried about that because whatever I own and Bitcoin will just be like it would be worth 100x. So that's not a concern of mine. What I'm I advise people to make sure that you have your short term needs and short term, I mean, you know, a few weeks to a few months. Make sure you have those available for, you know, so you don't get yourself in a situation. I personally don't do that. Now that said, Michael,

there are people out there who have, you know, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars with a Bitcoin. They're super comfortable with their short term needs. They're like, I'll just peel some off. It doesn't matter to me. Long term, that's probably the right play for somebody like that. Sure. Are you buying all the way up, James? Oh, yeah. Always.

Yep. Oh, yeah. I want to contrast James' very responsible approach. I'm a crazy person. And I basically live on Bitcoin. So I earn Bitcoin. 95% of my income is probably Bitcoin. if I'm not mistaken, somewhere in that realm, 90 plus.

And I live on Bitcoin. And I use various things to do it. We're lucky here in Canada. We've got various mechanisms that you can use to pay bills off with Bitcoin. I use bit refill and coin cards and various other things to, if I need gas or groceries, I can get gift cards for that with Bitcoin, literally at the till as I'm doing it, and then scan a barcode and pay for groceries. And then the last thing that I've done is I've created a local circular market in my city with other Bitcoiners.

So good. Yeah, which is awesome. It's like I have a rancher down south a few hours away. He'll drive up and he'll stock my freezer full of beef. I've got other farmers that chicken, eggs, everything kind of sourced locally that I can get. I've got, you know, people that can fix up, you know, like I've somebody who, built my coffee, not my coffee table, my kitchen table, somebody who did my basement, there's roofers, there's plumbers, there's other tradesmen that are all around the city

that I can go to. I've got a home cleaner. I've got all these different things that I basically, I'm like, I definitely will call myself a Bitcoin extremist over here, but I want to, I want to, when did you get in? Like, when did you start doing this, Ben? When did I start kind of trying to live on Bitcoin? Yeah. 2020. So it's, it was a gradual process. I couldn't like string it all together perfectly.

How much of it was, was it having earning in Bitcoin too? That was a, that's kind of when I started to push to only earn in Bitcoin. So in and around 2020, I started and it wasn't always the case, but over time. So now I charge a premium of somebody wants to pay me in dollars

because I don't, I don't, I don't fucking want them. God bless you, man. I actually, I just live in a, yeah. It's not for everybody. It's not for everybody. It is not easier.

I've been considering it. I've been considering it. So I've done the borrow, like I've been very smart and I've borrowed like you've said. I've gotten, if you call it luck, whatever you want to call it. But I've been thinking about the reason why I ask the question is because I've been highly considering what you're doing. then um and yeah yeah you just me i mean it's not the easiest thing and you and you got to recognize that if if you're going to go down that rabbit hole it is it's a labor of love it's obviously easier to earn dollars and and just use your credit card and do whatever but it's more from from the

mindset of a i just i i have this vitrile towards the the existing monetary system and i just Just the more I can, like, as long as I can string it together, I will just matrix my way around it and use as little of it as possible. I obviously still have to have a bank account and a credit card and stuff to make it work. But I have as few dollars as possible at all times. All right. I may do a few things next week as a result of what you shared today. This is a gradual process, though, Michael. You know, if you find yourself in a small circular economy

or you create one like Ben has done, it becomes a lot easier over time. But, you know, we've got Bitcoin has dotted all around the world. And many of them are islands who don't know another Bitcoin in real life or certainly don't know, you know, you know, somebody who's a rancher or someone like that, you know. Yeah. And there are a lot of challenges.

But it's on everybody as the individual to make those steps in their daily life. Just because you can't live on a Bitcoin standard doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying. Every time you go and ask, you get a cup of coffee or a sandwich or petrol. Just say, can I pay in Bitcoin? You know they're going to say no. You know they're going to say no. But if all of us do it, by the time they've been asked two or three times, they'll be thinking, really need to start accepting Bitcoin because people are asking about it.

Like it doesn't cost you anything, right? I like, it's not going to change unless we do the small and do, we do the small things. I also, I like the tactic of starting with the lowest hanging fruit. Get together with your local bitcoins. Chat with them. Listen, we all know this is better money. We all know that for sure. We're all earning dollars and peeling off some of those dollars to buy Bitcoin. So if you, if you have skills of. any sort, if you create any sort of product, why would you not also accept Bitcoin for that?

And then just like save the Bitcoin that you've earned from that thing. It's a no-brainer. And then for the crazies of us that want to live on Bitcoin, then it's just, this is, honestly, this is coming from an entirely selfish place where I just wanted to live on Bitcoin. I was like, everybody should accept Bitcoin and started with the Bitcoiners. And it worked. We've got like, we've got, I think all across the markets that we've hosted, we've got 40 to 50 local vendors that we've kind of aggregated. And we've kind of created a network where we just know each other and I can reach out.

So like when my son shoves some toy down the toilet, I can call a Bitcoin plumber. And he's here in a few days. And I pay him and so good. And he gets all of my shit coin problem. So there we go. So but I did want to quickly, James, if I could, I wanted to ask one quick thing that I think fits into your greater framework of bullishness that that you've had. And this is something new that just kind of dropped today. So I wanted to get your quick hot take on it.

And the rest of the panel, if you want to chime in as well. So this ETF just dropped. It's called BMX. So I'll just read a little bit so people are filled in. And then James, if you have a take on it, great. So on Friday today, a convertible bonds exchange. traded fund launches focused on companies like Michael Saylor's newly rebranded strategy to have Bitcoin on their balance sheets. The Rex Bitcoin corporate treasury convertible bond

ETF, which is making its debut under the ticker BMX, holds converts as converts, rather, as they're known in the industry. From firms, including strategy, which is to turbocharged, the approach of selling equity-linked notes to fund its cryptocurrency, specifically Bitcoin purchases. It's wild success with the endeavor spurred a number of other companies to Copacat the method. For those unfamiliar, convertible bonds start their life as low-interest notes, but can turn into equities if share prices go high enough. investors who buy and hold them can profit from their interest payouts or from any potential upside if the bonds are converted to stocks. These hybrid instruments are typically traded by institutional investors, including the along-only investors and hedge fund players that employ an arbitrage strategy with them. The new ETF is therefore giving retail traders a chance to get exposure to convertibles, issues,

issued by companies that are actively incorporating Bitcoin onto their balance sheets, all via an easily tradable ETF, and this is from the CEO of Rex. The quote here, until now, these bonds have been difficult for individual investors to reach. BMax removes those barriers. The fund also holds convertibles from Mara Holdings, Inc, which rolled out its converts for Bitcoin purchases after strategy did. So James, I'm curious your take on the accessibility of this offering to retail now. Yeah, I mean, on the face of it, awesome, you can buy converts through an ETF now that you don't have access to. Like, you've got to be buying millions of dollars worth of these things in order to get any, you know, real amount. And it's kind of difficult to buy them yourself. If you're,

an individual investor trying to buy a convert. So that's interesting. So you do get some optionality to the upside with the conversion rate of each bond. You don't know exactly what that is in this instrument. So I mean, I might watch it for a little while to see what kind of optionality they're offering, like where they're buying it, how they're like what their mix is. You've got to really study what the, what the ETF holds in percentages and, and, when those maturities are and what those strike prices are and all of that stuff.

You have to have a matrix event. So it does get confusing because you would be like, it would be like holding a portfolio of converts and you have to kind of, you know, figure out where the maturities are, where the strike prices are and all that. So you do get some upside there. The challenge is knowing what that,

what how to hedge against it, if you're gonna do any arbitrage, which is the really, the really big part of these. Like Michael was able to sell these because of the like monetizing the volatility that and he's he's said this shereesh his treasurer has said this and um the point is that they're able to get these convertible bond arbitrageurs to buy these because they're able to short the stock around it and trade around it like I was saying before and that's a big deal to them so that takes out a like a very attractive piece of this

because you don't know what that delta hedge is it's like you'd have to blend all with that continuously changing mix on your portfolio. It's not like you're just delta hedging against each piece. Like if I had when we were doing converts convertible arbitrage, I would delta hedge against one bond and then delta hedge against a different bond. Now of course, you're you're delta hedging here with the underlying stock. You're not delta hedging it with Bitcoin. You could in a way, but then you'd have to delta hedge it with also including the

multiple of, you know, where the stock is trading versus the, the underlying value of the Bitcoin and the balance sheet, which, you know, which would be like 1.8 for micro strategy. It could be as high as four, five, six, depending on where similar and some of the other ones trade. And similar is all the way back down now, too. But the point is that you have to figure that out. So it's not ideal. It's interesting to me, but I wouldn't really recommend it. highly to individual investors because you're not getting a yield on it and you're really only getting the upside optionality on those on those you know securities and hoping that the companies continue to add enough bitcoin to balance sheet through borrowing that it's accretive meaning the stock

becomes worth more like if if if michael sailor doesn't do anything here then if bitcoin goes up His stock goes up locked step with it. It doesn't go up to X with it. It only goes up to X with it if he continues to expand. Right? And then so it has to step that that rate stays steady unless he's expanding the amount he owns. I hope that that's kind of a little bit confused, but I hope that that makes sense. I would add that I would add to James what James said.

And context, I was an equity derivatives trader for 10 years as well. So like this, when you're taking a complex product and then you're bundling complex products together into a wrapper and then you're selling it to retail. Yeah. Retail. I mean, I would not be recommending people go out and buy that, right? Unless you really understand all of the components there and you understand how they are making money. Yeah.

What's going to happen is they're going to have hedge funds who are arbitraising this thing. Yeah, of course. Of course. And so what I would say is to change this point, a large part of the natural demand for these converts are the volatility buyers. Right. And they are not directional. There's a directional skew on the volatility here to the upside because the most it can go down is 100%.

Right. But they're not buying it because they think Bitcoin's going to eat the world necessarily. Yeah. Whereas the market that this ETF is. supposed to and given it's an equity it could be retail or it could be institutional equity holders but again that would be a strange it's it's it's going to be retail yeah it's going to be retail i'm giving them the benefit the doubt here james and so if they um if you are a retail customer and you the only reason you buy this convertible bond because you can't belt a hedge it is because you

think the stocks are because bitcoin's going to eat the world these stocks are going to go up you wouldn't own the convertible bond just buy the equity or you buy the options. Like the bond component is a dead component to you. And so it's a really strange one. It's a really strange one. I would say, do your research, you know, understand what it is you're getting into, and, you know, just be careful.

Last little question here from the chat. And this is from, I always love that this person comments because despite their username, they often have very interesting questions. So this one from Poohed in the cereal. He wants to know thoughts on the FDIC when it comes to banks' custody of Bitcoin. Does the FDIC, what does he say? I ask this because FDIC include Comptroller of the Currency as a board member. So I think he's maybe asking in and around, will the FDIC in any way be looking at all,

alternative assets, like, will they cover that? Or is that just like a bank shits the bed with the Bitcoin and you're kind of out of luck? Well, yeah, that's a good question. It's going to remain to be seen. I think that the Fed is very reluctant to touch Bitcoin in any way, shape, or form. And the FDIC is so underfunded. Why would they take that on? Yeah. You know, they're so underfunded. It doesn't, it, it seems to me like that would be stepping in a pile of poo, you know, in their cereal. Yes. So I don't see it happening right away, but who knows, you know, things have been changing rapidly. And it remains to be seen how these things change.

But I would not expect it. I would not expect them to embrace it and offer to ensure it. Fair enough, fair enough. Well, jents, I'm conscious of time. What I want to do really quick before we wrap up. barring any other quick question I see pop up. I'm just going to quickly go around. If you have any final thought that you want to toss out for the evening just as a whole, anything that you plucked out of the show in general piece of advice for the audience, really anything you want to point them

towards and also where people can, other than in the show notes, find you and what you're doing. So Joe, I'll let you go first. Any final thoughts and where you want to point people towards? well I've really enjoyed being on the show so thank you very much Ben for having me and Michael and James getting to meet you as close to meeting in person as possible at the moment so thank you guys

I would say I mean you can find me at Sat Mojo on X the main thing I want really is for as many people in the world to watch what's the problem as possible because if everybody

watches this will be you know a long way closer to to get into the outcome we all know is going to happen anyway and if you haven't shared it with your family and friends or people who haven't had the penny drop from bitcoin yet please do we're releasing more and more languages every day so we release polish yesterday french today this is audio and slides and so if you if you have family abroad who are not native English speakers, please share it with them as well. And yeah, thank you to all the bitcoins around the world who've contributed to this entirely

on a voluntary basis. So thank you to everybody. Hell yeah. Also, Nathan wants to know between James and Michael, who wins a hockey fight and yes, on skates. Michael, can you skate? I can't skate. You're in deep shit.

Yeah, I lose that one. every gallon. Here's the thing it's like you're, when you go ahead. When you've been in a hockey for a very long time and you've been in a lot of fights, like a lot of fights, the thing that

people are so scared about is getting hit. I mean, look at my nose. I am not scared of getting hit anymore. The skates is what really throws it. That's like, the skates are They're just, if you can't, they're just punch. They're unfair advantage. Michael, I'm going to keep it with you.

Final thought and where you want to point people to check out. Yeah, this was a lot of fun, Ben. Thank you for inviting me. I'm on a mission to change the health of the world, and it would be an honor to serve the Bitcoin community. I think when you and I spoke, we spoke of the Bitcoin community specifically. And I'd love to help you in any way that I can. Easiest place to find me is on X.

Morelli, my last name, and then Fit, FIT. You can go to FitScript. Me, if you'd like to check it out. You can book a call with a health advisor. Free no strings attached call. You can go there. You can learn more about our process, what we do, the markers, and our entire sort of framework.

And then I'll leave you all with this because I've seen so many people's health deteriorate, including my own fathers, give biological sovereignty the same equal importance to your financial sovereignty. Do not wait to take control of your health. I love it, man. Absolutely. It's important to be financially sovereign, but if you don't have health, you don't have anything. So absolutely. Great. Thank you so much. And nice meeting you guys as well. It was great. Great learning. I certainly don't have the depth on the Bitcoin topic. So I took it all in.

I learned a lot. And I know I need to buy more after this. Even more. I thought I was crazy. Now I got to go buy more. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. No worries.

James, I'll let you cap it off. Any final thoughts? And where do you want to point people towards? Yeah, well, not lucky for me when I meet Mike. He's a lot bigger than me. And he won't be on skates. So, again, I'm not fair. I'm not afraid of getting hit.

Nothing but love. Nothing but love here. I don't fight. I love. I'm a, yeah. My days of fighting are over. So somebody asked me, do I pay pronger of the Sats? The answer is no, because I paid the best comment in the, in that thread, the sats.

I can't remember who won it, but I did pay them. So, and somebody had, somebody had referenced Slapshot, the movie. That was pretty good. So my final thoughts. Look, I guess just like I was saying before, I would just say if you're new to this whole thing and you're scared or you're nervous, just embrace the volatility. If you're not over your ski tips, you're fine. Just embrace the volatility. It's good long term for Bitcoin.

You heard all my reasons around it. I'm super excited. I'm optimistic. You know, we're investing. We're taking advantage of the down-down-down-dural. down draft here, the drawdown. And, you know, if you're, yeah, if you're interested in the hedge fund and what we're doing, you can just fill out. It's a simple form there with your name and just we can get the information. You can talk to us. We'll jump on the phone, whatever. But we're right now

in the middle of raising fund too. And we've got some exciting stuff going on. So if you're interested, just reach out. And then, of course, I'm on Twitter, James Lavish, and I write the the informationist newsletter every week. And that comes out every Sunday. There's a free version and it's, you know, I like doing it. So I just take complicated concepts and simplify them for people. That's awesome. Well, gentlemen, thank you guys so much for being here.

Really enjoyed it. And I really appreciate you guys taking time out to get bullish with me on a Friday evening here, a very late Friday evening for Joe in particular, who is over in the UK. But thank you guys so much. Have a wonderful rest of your weekend and everybody in the chat. Thank you for being here. Smash that like button and we'll see you after the weekend. Cheers everybody. Take care. That's keep stacking skills. Talk to you soon.