BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Adam O'Brien, Jeff Walton, Tatum Cave ep406

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

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What is going on, everybody? Welcome to this show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish. Stoked to have the panel here this evening, a bunch of good dudes. We're going to get into it. A couple returning guests and a first timer. So very excited to have them all. We're going to get rolling momentarily. I hope you guys are having a good continuation of your week and you got a good weekend ahead of you. But of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill. here. Live. Okay. We'll do it live.

Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. The thing sucks. If you have not already, please do like, subscribe, share. All those things are super important. They help get this content in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session.

Before we bring in our guests, let's take a quick look at where we are in the market. it right now. I'm pulling up Timechain Calendar.com and simultaneously, I'm going to pull up the live chat. Everything you say into the chat is now live for the world to see for better or worse. So back to Time Chain Calendar, we're sitting at $69,650-55

dollars per coin. A single U.S. dollar will snag you 1,436 sats. In terms of fees, next block, only 11 sats per byte anytime 8sats per byte, and Bitcoin mine to 19.67 million of them, that is 93.6. 66% of the entire supply.

That flashing bar around the outside of the time chain calendar, that indicates how close we are nearing the halving. We're 21 days and 18 hours out, estimated to be April 20th at around 11 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. So it is just around the corner. Shout out to sponsor the show, hottlehalla.com. When it comes to peer-to-peer trading and lending,

instant self-custody, no K-YC. Awesome place to be. You can sign up with just an email address once you're in. Choose your currency, payment method, and mount. Start browsing offers immediately. You can check them under the links down below. When you do get your hands on some Bitcoin, you're going to want to secure it with some of the best damn hardware on the market.

Coin Kite has you covered. They got all the goodies. The cold card cue is badass. Low-key, I just saw my shipment drop of all my pre-orders. I shit you not. I have eight cues on the way. so excited for those to show up at the doorstep. That'll be some explaining to the wife.

But nonetheless, you can pick up all the good stuff there, including the Q, the tab signer, and everything else they have to offer. Head to coincite.com. You can use code BTC sessions for a nice discount at checkout. Backups are important as well. Cidor has an awesome solution, very robust, one of the better beautifully designed ones out there, disc and capsule design to protect your seed from the elements.

basically you stamp your seed into solid steel protects it from fire, water, corrosion, all that stuff. They have starter sets for one or two seeds, and there are links down below for the best shipping options for you. Also check out my tutorial. Nunchuk has you covered with assisted multi-sig. These guys are knocking it out of the park. Basically, what you can do is set up a full multi-sig wallet or vault on your phone with things like tap sign or cold card and plenty of other hardware options. Once it's set up, you have baked and inherited. business planning so your Bitcoin gets to your next of kin, if anything should happen.

And on top of that, the whole thing doesn't need K-YC. You can set it up without any personal information and have it working for you. Check them out at Nunchuk.io. And finally, start 9, your sovereign computing solution. These guys have you cover when it comes to plug-and-play devices to host not only your Bitcoin stack, but your digital life pretty much. So you can run your Bitcoin Core node, your Lightning node, Mempool. Dot space, join market, things like files, passwords, photos, photos,

to realising clients and even AI tools that are not censored. So if you want to check them out, start9.com. They've got devices all the way from entry level up to what I'm running, which is the Start 9 server pure. But enough of my rambling, let's get our guests in here and get rolling here. So I'm going to welcome to the stage, Tatum and Adam and Jeff. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Stoke to have you all.

Let's do a quick round of intros so everybody is. familiar news on the stage. So I'll toss it over to Adam first. Dude, welcome back, first of all. I just saw you the other day at the sat market here in Calgary, like last weekend. But good to see you digitally again. Can you give yourself a little intro, man? Yeah, man, it was good.

Thanks for everyone who doesn't know. Ben bought a picture that one of my kids colored for 2,000 sats. So big ups to Ben. I expect to see it on the fridge next time I come over. Oh, yeah. He upsold me. I think I had a few fine. I've curated quite the collection now.

Yes, my toddlers, they know how to use a marker real well. Yeah, I'm Adam. I'm the founder and CEO at Bitcoin Well. We're a publicly traded Bitcoin company. We are automatic self-custody and nothing less than that. You cannot hold Bitcoin on our platform and that's the way it should be. Awesome. And Adam, can I just drop the bomb right now?

Do it, man. First time. Let's go. Yeah. So Adam, first of all, we've been friends forever. And he actually helped me attain some of my first sets. I was running around helping clearing someone of his Bitcoin ATMs way back in 2000. Was that 15?

Dude, it was a long time ago. It was long before your hair turned blonde. It was. Yeah, pre-streak if such a time existed. But yeah, I was running around clear in ATMs from and everything, so we've known each other a long time. But, yeah, so Adam just took the title sponsor spot on the show, and so that's going to be next month.

But yeah, and I'm stoked because I'm going to be, obviously, you know, Bitcoin Wall is awesome, but also I'm going to be owning shares of Bitcoin Wall as well because, you know, I want to put my, my reputation and money where my mouth is. And I think you're running a tight ship. So thank you. It's dope to be. Yeah, man. We're excited to have you on board.

It's going to be awesome. Cool. Well, and welcome back to the show, too. So, awesome. Well, let's toss it down to Tatum. Tatum, where the fuck is your vest? I have to apologize to C-Fund. and everyone else.

I do not know. I'm not at home. So I actually am currently selling all of my belongings for more Bitcoin. But no, I'm Tatum Turnup. I am host of Between 2A6, which is coming back, by the way. Shout out to Ben, I think was a third guest. a degenerate Bitcoin miner and the king of Denver. So that's me.

Well, I'm stoked to have you back, man. And I'll have to see you in person soon enough. But it's good to have you nonetheless. Also, shout out to you for being like an absolute asset during the Christmas show. Tatum was backstage the whole fucking time holding down the ship. and hurting cats, aka Bitcoiners, into the correct guest slots on that mammoth show. So I do actually deeply appreciate that. Thanks, man.

That is my favorite Christmas tradition now. And I hope that you ask me back for year four because I love doing it. Yeah, of course, man. Of course, every year. All right. Well, let's go down the line. Jeff, you're a first timer to the show. So welcome.

Thank you. Hopefully it's not too D-Gen for you already. but I'm glad to have you. Can you give yourself a little intro? Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, so hi, everybody. I'm punter, Jeff, or just Jeff. You can call me Jeff.

That's fine. I am one of these traditional finance guys that's found my way into the Bitcoin world. Fully orange-pilled. I've been here for quite a while now. I was trading Bitcoin back in 2021, but now I'm here to stay. Yeah, it's the new financial rails. Awesome. Yeah, I've had.

some interesting takes on micro strategy recently. I've talked about valuations. Some of that has been on my Twitter. It's a bit polarizing for some of the Bitcoin maxis. And it's, you know, I might want to talk about some of that today. So yeah. Awesome. Love it. Well, guys, thank you all so much for being here. It's always good. Getting a bullish on a Friday with everybody. And anybody in the chat, of course, welcome as well. Make sure you smash that like. Give this a share. It does really help a lot. But for those that are maybe brand new and unfamiliar with the show, this is why are we bullish, very simple premise. Each one of us comes with a reason for being bullish. And that can take any form. It could be a personal experience, a news item, a new device or app or something like that, a video

that we saw. Really, whatever floats your boat. And so the flow of the show is, number one, somebody's going to drop their reason for being bullish. This is your chance to rant, get off your chest, whatever you're currently excited about. Number two, altogether, we're going to rant on that riff. We're going to discuss, ask questions, comments, go down whatever rabbit holes we want. And then finally, number three, once we've finished up with that topic, we're going to rotate to the next person until we've all had a turn. So reason, riff, rotate, nice and simple.

So I'm going to get us started. And actually, I'm going to get us started with a reason. It was actually just announced yesterday. And this is a new initiative that I'm partaking in. And I'm going to preface this by saying that doing work with the Human Rights Foundation has been some of the most impactful moments that I've experienced since getting into Bitcoin. And it's been really special to be able to go to these events where, number one, Bitcoin is not the focus of the event.

These are human rights events talking about people that are under massive pressure from tyrannical governments or other horrible things that they're trying to navigate. And they're telling their stories. And Bitcoin is merely present on the side as a potential tool in their tool belt. And that's kind of the unique thing about it that is the coolest is that there's a group of people that are disenfranchised in one way or another that are finding Bitcoin actually useful in a lot of their circumstances. And so the thing that got announced the other day was this.

And this is press release from the Human Rights Foundation. And if I can, I'll zoom it in a little bit here. So HRF launches webinar to help nonprofits integrate Bitcoin. Human Rights Foundation is delighted to announce a free quarterly webinar to teach nonprofits, particularly human rights organizations, how to integrate Bitcoin into their work to challenge state censorship and confiscation. And the quote here, in a world where financial deplatforming is on the rise, especially in dictatorships, this kind of education is critical, this from Alex Gladstein. Authoritarians everywhere from Hong Kong to Nicaragua to Iran are increasingly relying on freezing

bank accounts, censoring donations, and confiscating assets of NGOs and dissidents. It's time to help civil society learn about unstoppable money. The first course will take place from April 22nd to 26th and will consist of five hour-long lectures at 1030 a.m. Edt taught by myself. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You missed the part where it said world class educator. They're talking you all. We'll just say taught by some guy with weird hair. But yeah, so we're going to be covering basically getting people onboarded to kind of like the 101 of Bitcoin. How do you self-custody it?

How do you accept donations a little bit about, you know, options between security versus the versatility of quick and easy payments and the tradeoffs with different options that you might use? but more or less just like the initial onboarding to get people familiar with the basics of Bitcoin so that they can begin to move forward and utilize it as a tool in their tool belt. So I'm super excited to be a part of this. You know, I had been doing some stuff with the HRF intermittently, but this is going to be decidedly regular work. And as it says there, we're going to be doing these quarterly. So this is just the first one.

I hope a lot of people come out to it. Whether they be people that are dissidents or whether it's just people that want to be a part of it and share it with others. Yeah. And I think it matters. And I'm glad to be working alongside with Alex and everybody at the HRF. They're all pretty awesome. So that's why I'm bullish. That's why I'm excited.

I'm going to open it up to you guys just in terms of, you know, have you seen some of this stuff that's been coming out of the HRF? Obviously, a lot of people are familiar with Gladstein, but what are your thoughts in and around what they're doing there? And anybody can jump in, by the way. I thought you were about to say something. Okay, yeah, yeah. This makes me pretty stoked. I think, Ben, you and I chatted about this in Toronto last year, I think,

and you were telling me about, you were telling me about, I think, the conference in Oslo. Yeah. And how two years ago you were talking about, someone that had been jailed, someone had had been captured, taken prisoner, and put in jail and how you had suggested, and you guys were talking about how making Bitcoin donations,

and then how the next year, that guy that was jailed, was on stage talking about how Bitcoin helped, and the lack of censorship in Bitcoin helped free him and helped fund the campaign and whatever. You can tell the story. probably like obviously better than I can but what struck me so hard about that story was how like both of us were almost like emotional talking about that and realizing realizing how incredible bitcoin is for so much more than just than just number to go up and now that you get to go an

orange pill like you know how many hundreds or thousands of people is man that's like that's like That's so dynamite. One more thing that I love about that is you didn't touch on it. But if you go back to that release or that thing, if you scroll below, it was that they're going to be teaching about self-custody. You're teaching about backing up wallets, sending and receiving transactions safely. Like, this is censorship-resistant money. And I love that you're taking that angle.

Obviously, we're an automatic self-custody platform. Like, that's near and dear to my heart. So yeah, man, I'm stoked for you. I'm super stoked that you get to go and do that. do that spread spread some bitcoin love and it's going to be going to be rock solid man thanks man yeah no that was five one hour sessions seems excessive from from a btc session guy but mind you your tutorials are like behemoths so maybe that's i mean one-and-a-half regular session i mean if you looked at his uncut footage of his cold card mk4 it was at least like 10 hours

for a week. Ben has to have like four different packed lunches to get through one tutorial. Yeah, that was that, I think that was my longest video ever was the, was the cold card mark four. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to cover everything it does like a week and a half later. I was like, oh, what did I do? Dude, I sent my friend, my, uh, someone, oh, it was a guy that did some work at,

at my cabin. He was like, I want to get, take Bitcoin, like, help me do that. And I was like, okay, buy one of these and here's how you set it up. And he was like, what the fuck, dude? That video's two to half hours. And I was just like, oh, well, Bitcoin's important. So you should probably just watch it. I'll be so high time reference, buddy.

What's two and a half hours for generational wealth, right? Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, it is. It is, again, to your point in and around, You know, like these people in particular, like that one you mentioned, that was one of the most impactful moments. Like I had to, you know, it was the year before it was this guy's wife was speaking. Her name is Berta and she was on stage and she was talking about how her husband was basically like abducted. He was, they're from Nicaragua and he was running a campaign against the existence.

regime and basically warning everybody that it was leaning like falling down the the slope it towards totalitarianism and they basically just like one day abducted him and just took him and when she was giving her speech she hadn't seen him in two years and they have a young daughter together and so like she tells this whole story you know just this awful awful story I've listened to it on stage but I was sat far away so I couldn't quite see her, like who it was. And then later, at the same event, this was in Oslo, I taught a session on how to set up a Bitcoin wallet.

And afterwards, somebody's talking to me, this lady's talking to me, and she's chatting and, oh, yeah, you know, asking some questions about Bitcoin. She had said that somebody suggested some other coins. And I was like, well, here's why maybe that's not a good idea. And, you know, laid out things. And then passively during the conversation, I said, I mentioned that the 21 million cap. And she was like, the what? It was like, you know how Bitcoin has a fixed supply and they can't print more of it?

And she's like, oh my God, that's like useful for a whole other reason than I initially came to it for. Like she literally, everybody in the West, it's like, it's scarce. I'm going to number go up. That's what it's all about. She literally had no idea that was even a thing and gravitated towards Bitcoin. Anyways, it ended up, that was the same lady on stage, unbeknownst to me until like a year later. And then I became privy to that. And I was like, okay, well, that's nice.

Hopefully that's helpful. And yeah, so the next year, I'm sitting in the audience about to watch different presentations. And I didn't know that this was coming, but out onto the stage, walks her husband who had been since released and was just like giving his speech about like basically what happened and like what's happening in Nicaragua and like his like return to his family and everything and they start off and I'm like oh god they start off the presentation with the video of him being reunited with his like eight year old daughter for the first time in two and a half years and I'm just like crying like a baby and like I'm like I'm

I've got a, my daughter's turning seven soon, so I'm like, I can definitely, you know, relate to that in a way. And I'm, you know, trying to watch this thing and just like an absolute mess. I had to, like, after that, I had to, like, leave the theater and go on a long walk. But, like, these are the types of stories that very much, like, impact you. And it's not that Bitcoin was like a centerpiece in that, but just the fact that it's useful. and it can help in some way contribute to that. Like I'm glad to be a part of that in some way. So anyways, it was a hell of an experience.

I can't wait to go back to Azzell again this year. And I can't wait to be a part of this whole initiative. So yeah. It's super noble. I mean, we're at a really critical point where the number of people hitting the Bitcoin network is going to rocket drastically just with the Bitcoin ETFs. And the amount of traditional finance capital is about to hit the Bitcoin network. And helping these people understand Bitcoin before that gets too complicated and before

traditional finance catches up is an opportunity to get people access to this that deserve it. Right. And that's, that's incredibly noble. And I mean, I think the, I mean, that's how the, that's how the Bitcoin network grows. It's like you start seeing more use cases beyond just number go up. And it's phenomenally useful. Yeah. Awesome.

Great stuff. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah. So anyways, I'll kind of put a bow on this topic, but I just wanted to bring it up. I think it's a pretty cool thing. And I'm very happy to be a part of it. And yeah, I hope people continue to kind of help share out that message and get it to people who need it and yeah let's let's hope it's helpful um but with that we're going to do a rotation um

i'm going to i'm just going to go in the order on my screen here i'm going to toss to adam first and uh and you're going to get the same question everybody else is and i'll start you off here man why are you bullish yo i've been thinking about this i actually uh actually tweeted about this before uh you'd ask me to come on the show and so it's like here we are you know, two, three weeks before the halving. And this is my, this is, this is my, this is my, this is my, this is my third having. I got into Bitcoin in 2013. Um, and so I, I, I, I'm like, I've seen a few havings here.

And it feels like at least my echo chamber online, at least my circle, we're not talking about number go up, man. Like, we're not talking about it's like that is a foregone conclusion at this point. Number go up is boring for Bitcoiners at this point. I'm bullish because we're talking about generational wealth. Look at your ad read for Nunchuk. And there's baked in ways to pass your seed down to your kids. Like we're talking about generational wealth.

We're talking about the future. We're talking like, you know, what I said, you know, in that tweet was like, this having is about freedom. this having is about sovereignty. This like, think about what our grandkids, our great, great, great grandkids are going to experience. Like, I'm just so bullish for future havings. Number go up has come and it's, you know,

it's obviously not gone. Like number go up will continue until the last coin is mine. The last sad is mine. But the fact that we're already talking about it with still a million coins, a million plus coins to be mined is insane. That is so based. We are so lucky. And we're literally in a time that will be looked at, you know, if there are still such a thing as history books, if the state hasn't like completely brainwashed and just removed all instances of books in the future, this will be in the history books as the most influential time when money was separated from state.

and the citizens have freedom, financial freedom and sovereignty for really the first time. Like even looking back in throughout history, we've never had money in state separated. And now we have money created for individuals that give power to individuals that has, you know, it's programs to just maintain or increase purchasing power. It's like, it's stunning. And we've got some of the best innovators in the, the world excited about and focusing on Bitcoin. It's remarkable. I have a few bit keys. I've been trying out those those bit key devices and they're they're you know, they're interesting.

I'm not sure they like fit into into my daily Bitcoin use case right now. But the more that like, you know, like thanks Jack. Like that's awesome. You know, we've got some pretty wicked people building on Bitcoin. That's what has me bullish is just the having us here. You know, there's like, Obviously, there's some number of grew up talk, but it's mostly about sovereignty. It's about the future. It's about passing down your keys to your loved ones. It's about individual freedom. I mean, look, like even what we just talked about, the Human Rights Foundation is like excited about Bitcoin, not because of supply cap and scarcity, but because of decentralization and self-sovereignty.

And that's like, wow. I love it. Smash by. Yeah, 100%. It's interesting how we're at this unique. point I think in in humanity where especially the last little bit it's been a little bit more difficult to to get a leg up or to understand how to get a leg up for your kids and your grandkids and it's getting harder and harder to get by just on one's own let alone

think about future generations and I think that That's been flipped on its head now. You've got a freaking cheat code so that your great, great grandkids can build something amazing. And so all the sudden, actions that you take today, you know, in Fiat land, every action you take today has a diminishing return over time. And it's the total opposite for Bitcoiners. every action you have today, if you play your cards right and you take your time and you're conscious and you're conservative with your actions and you plan accordingly, every action you take today is going to reverberate through the ages for generations to come, for your family,

for people you care about, and for things that you end causes that you care about. And so, yeah, I mean, you're spot on. generational wealth absolutely generational wealth for everyone who cares to take the time to have a low time preference and you know let's let's fucking build some shit i think that's pretty exciting so i don't know i'll let i'll let jeff or uh tatum dive in here and and give their thoughts as well yeah i um very obviously number go up has been in the vocabulary for a little bit um because you know things are happening but also by the way hey yellow um also uh i've been doing i've been doing a lot more like it it was probably the towards the bottom of the bear where i was really trying to think like okay

why am i doing this if it's not like i knew why i was doing it but it's like what what's What's the real like ethos behind all this and I realize like, okay, I don't care if it's a dollar per coin. Like I'm going to still be using it because it because of what it is. It is uncensored uncensoredable. It will nuances there. But it's interesting resistance. If I can, you know, access the internet. Like I can access my stack.

I can use Bitcoin. It gives you a sense of power that like you, you are in control of it. And the sovereignty that comes with it, like, I'm unlike, I'm like a lot of people. I got in because number go up. And then it was only after that that I started doing more research and learning and now I have like my whole sovereign home network and stuff like that. And I'm running a node. I'm self-hosting everything that I can.

And like I have 50 UB keys. It goes down that rabbit hole too. Like it's it's one of those things that my favorite thing to say is I came to get rich. I stayed to get even because it teaches you a lot. Like you realize you're like, okay, I am not in control of my own life. but Bitcoin is kind of like a pathway into controlling your own life, becoming sovereign. And number go up is just the cherry on top, I think. Yeah.

I agree with everything that I'm saying. I'm having conversation. Like, there's a coworker of mine that is huge into lightning. And I call myself an optimistic bear on lightning. We can go in that later on, different story, different day. I love lightning. Don't be me wrong. but he's been helping me out with a lot of self-custodial lightning stuff.

I've been helping him out on hardware devices and stuff like that, and we're just going back and forth, like, every single day with different stuff. And he told me the other day, he's like, look, I really appreciate everything that you're helping me with, but I need to also, like, figure out how to do it simply. I was like, what do you, like, what do you mean? Like, you have to sacrifice convenience until then you're not free. And he's like, I have two daughters and one on the way in the next month. And they're the only things I think about whenever I am stacking Bitcoin.

So that's when I was like, damn. Okay, well, this is, this just hit me in the fields a little bit. but yeah it puts it in a different light how like everyone is in a different situation and you know it's i don't know sovereignty i sovereignty is a big big push that's going to come in this next cycle i think that we haven't seen previously yeah i mean it's it's primed for it right I think it's and and to your point, I guess to tag onto there, there will be, there's going to be more sovereignty, but it's going to feel like less because there's going to be an influx of newcomers that need to go through the whole learning process, right? There's still plenty more burns to be had, but as per existing bitcoins, like we're earning our stripes, man. Like if you if you just lived through that bear market, then you're you're coming out the other end of it hardened, right?

Like you've you've got a few scars and and you learned a few lessons and Bitcoin is a cruel but effective teacher and you're better for it. And yeah, man, like it's it's, you know, hearkening back to the previous topic, HRF, Glassstein likes to say freedom go up. And another one is sovereignty go up. Number go up with it. You know, that helps. But at the end of the day, it's cool. Can't be sovereign if you can't afford to eat, you know, whatever. But dude, I don't know, man.

Maybe I'm just like a hopeless optimist here. But I feel like the mistakes of the past, like, think about when you got in the space or like, you know, I think back to when I got in the space. There was no daily session. That's why I was so late. Dude, it was like the learning curve was so steep and the mistakes were so earnest. And there was like, you know, I don't, I don't like, and maybe I'm going to have to turn in my maxi card here. But like, I used to mine light coin in 2013 because I didn't know any better. I couldn't, I didn't get to have a Bitcoin Twitter to learn from.

And then I did. And now I contribute to it. and you contribute to it and Tatum contributes to it. And Jeff, I assume, is going to start contributing to it. And it's like, it's like the learning curves are going to get significantly, like, reduced as all this education compounds. Yeah, feather coin. Like, like, feather coin doesn't exist anymore. I at one point probably owned some feather coin.

I remember I had like a couple of people that were like, you know, oh, feather coin and LISC and nano. these are the future. And it's like, well, maybe like it's 2015 right now. What do we know? Bitcoin is a couple hundred bucks or a couple thousand bucks. Like, you know, maybe this is the top. And then you realize you go through this experience, you learn a bit more. And you understand that there is no top, you know, to quote Saylor, there is no second best.

It's, it's, it's remarkable. And we've got these people in the space now that are preaching that, that level. And, man. I hope that we see a lot less problems in the future because the education is so, is so strong. But I mean, I could be wrong. Like we watched, you know, we've seen exchanges collapse since 2013 and somehow FTCS still happened in 2021. So maybe I'm wrong. Yeah.

I think you're both right. But I think that there's just there's so many people that have yet to learn the life. lessons that you're right for the existing crop of Bitcorners and then people, I mean, okay, so if you're in the audience right now and you've never heard of Feathercoin LISC and Nano, that's a perfect example of why you shouldn't shit coin, right? 100%. These are all just volatile paths to owning less Bitcoin, right? Like you might get, if it's some new fancy meme coin or whatever, there's a chance by the time

you hear of it, maybe it spikes a little bit and has its all-time high versus Bitcoin, but it's all downhill from there, my friends. It's all, all downhill from there. I had this conversation, like Bitcoin pumps the last month. My buddy texts me, and he's like, what's the next meme coin? Like, you got to get it. I was like, dude, there is none. He's like, come on, I want to gamble. Like, I know it's not long term, but like, and I was like, dude, there's none. You want to gamble? Go to the casino. The, you know, the gains are tax-free when you win a jackpot at the VLTs, like that is, that is better than then whatever meme coin you're going to invest in. At least you feel like a pile of, you know, dog crap when you walk out of

the casino with it was zero dollars. It's like the crypto casino just pisses me off so bad. The feet and really it's it's the Fiat world that forces the crypto casino onto people, this like this nonstop rush towards, uh, you know, riches and gains. We're all in this rat race and the crypto casino is just like part of that. It's the it's the it's the it's the antithesis of Bitcoin and it is the the entire fiat world wrapped into one is the is the crypto casino it's just garbage. I was I was having a conversation the other day. I was having breakfast with uh I mean Adam you know him but anybody watching Dave Bradley

he's co-founder bull Bitcoin Bitcoin second best looking and second strong Bitcoin entrepreneur in the country. Yeah. Bitcoin brains is his handle. And anyways, we're having breakfast with a few other people and there's some dude and I can't remember what he said he had. He said something. It's like, oh, I got Salonna or something.

Dave's like quick response, he's like, oh, really? I recommend roulette. That's so good. You can go to buck around like that, you may as well just go to roulette table. It's just, you know, same odds. It's literally what you're doing. You have a one in 36 chance at the roulette table. Like you probably got better odds.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Jeff, I want to get your takes on this as well, you know, like the ability to pass on wealth, generations and kind of the position we're in. Well,

I really like the math component of this, right? I mean, there's 8 billion people on the planet. There's 21 million coins. If you were to spread those equally, which we know they're not, but if you were to spread those equally, it'd be 0.002625. So 262,000 sats per person, right? You could buy that for $184 today.

So when you start looking at your stack and you look relative to what an equal distribution would be for every human on the planet, you start to see the impact of the generational wealth. And that part is incredibly staggering. to me to think about math from that perspective. And if you just do Americans, right, there's 300 million Americans that live in America, 21 million coins, you're talking about 0.07, so 7 million sats per person.

And you could buy that for $4,600 today. Damn. So, you know, we're still really early. That's wild. That's very attain, again, like when you lay out the math like that, I mean, the even global distribution is for anybody in the West that's very attainable. That's like, oh, I, you know, I've got an extra 100 bucks kicking around. So I'll snag my portion of the Bitcoin supply forever.

And on top of that, you got to think, like, once you get that equal distribution of it, that's not accounting for lost coins. And it's also not accounting for increases in population size. Right. So population grows, like you're already, your percentage of the pie is disproportionate, right? Right. And if you start thinking about the math, right, like you've got to be able to protect that wealth. And so for me, the last 24 months, 36 months have been really focused on protection and what the future looks like from not necessarily protecting that wealth, but also how to how to utilize that wealth. to generate a yield, which is the most fascinating part about Bitcoin to me in the future, is generating a yield off of your Bitcoin to be able to utilize it. And to me, that's where the wealth becomes really valuable, right?

Like, the reason rich people get rich is because they buy assets, not because they sell assets, right? Like wealthy people buy expensive real estate and then they hold on to it for hundreds of years. They don't buy it and then sell it and brag about selling it. They brag about holding it. And they're able to use that collateral to generate more Fiat dollars to use for whatever they want to do. And that makes me incredibly bullish. So when you start talking about generational wealth, it's like, yes, the financial rails are still being built here.

And it's important to think about your stack relative to the rest of the world and how that all kind of works together and fits in the picture. I like that. So, okay, so there's a couple things I want to, like strings I want to pull on, or threads I want to pull on there, but I feel like this will link to your later reason for being bullish. I'm going to, I'm going to save my, because there's a few, like, rabbit holes that I can tell we're just going to get into those conversations. But like you said, the interesting thing about it in that sense was, you know, like, you know, like. Like people don't get rich on the Fiat they gained, right? Like as soon as you're back into Fiat, you're losing purchasing power. Really, what you're trying to attain is a percentage of the economy, right? Like assets.

Yeah, a percentage of the useful stuff that exists. And when you've got a measuring stick or like something that's supposed to represent a percentage of the economy and somebody else can just make more of it at will, and assign it to anybody other than you or maybe give you a breadcrummer a few and it's disproportionate to everyone else or their buddies, then if your bank account was represented a percentage of all the stuff that existed, that number would continually go down. You are not the elite that gets the favors to increase that number at the end of the day, right?

Right. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So, okay, I feel like this is going to kind of segue well. So I'm going to, I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to put a bow on this topic and then I'm going to rotate and then we'll just kind of, again, Jeff, I'm going to have, I know that I'm going to go down some raffle that you said there. And I know that people. I'm excited to be. be here. I've got, you know, I've got my whiskey. There we go. There we go. This is what I need. I feel like I'm, I'm on the wine here, and it's just, I'm seeing the whiskey and like, I'm going to have to, I'm texting my wife right now. I'm going to rotate here. I'm going to toss it to Tatum first, okay? Because I want to, I want to kind of, because, you know, I'll get a whiskey in me before I start going down those rabbit holes with you. So Tatum, I'm going to toss it to you. And also, Adam, I love that topic and kind of where it led us. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Tatum, same question to you as everybody gets today. And I know it changes every day, but why are you bullish? I was trying to do this thing where I was just going to be like, I'm bullish on between two ASICs, then play my song and do a promo thing. It was some stupid joke. But I am bullish on between two ASICs, though. But I am actually in the same realm, I'm actually bullish on mining because I've had some not doubts really, but kind of just some real big question marks over the past couple of months leading into the having. but as we get closer, it's all becoming more clear.

And I'm super bullish on mining for various reasons. One, the consistent competition between manufacturers to get the latest and greatest machine. Like, to just today, Bitmain announced the S-21 Pro with a boasted 15 joules per tarahash efficiency, which is, if you are not familiar, that is unheard of and insane and absolutely bonkers. But also in a completely opposite way, I'm bullish on mining in the PLEB miner and the individual, the rabbits, as Bob Burnett says, the people who have anything from, you know, maybe a small shed of a couple of jubes. J-Pro's or a couple space heaters or one space heater S-9 or even a bitax or an Apollo or some

lottery ticket minors, some people say. Because I have some like doomsday theories that, like, I just like playing out different scenarios in my head of what could happen. Because if you're new to the space, anything could happen. But I mean, like even down to the government seizure. of mining companies, that essentially will fix centralization of mining. And everyone who has any sort of hash that they control themselves, that's going to be the Bitcoin network at that point.

It goes a lot deeper than just like a, I wonder if the government is going to take my mining pools away today. But that's one thing that I'm really thinking about. Uh, mining, when I say I'm a degenerate miner, I'm an absolute degenerate minor. Um, so if you look at the thumbnail, I have an ASIC chip on my tongue. It looks like an LSD tab. So, um, yeah, overall, just super bullish on mining and, uh, the developments that are coming and, and the people who, the plebs who are building mining to become a pleb game again, because unfortunately right now, mining

and like it's not sexy it's not it's not a plebs game anymore um but I think that it will be in due time

very soon I love I love I'm sorry about that no no it's good so the reason I like this is um I think it's um

John uh who runs um god why am I forgetting in the name of it. The, the, just, like, is really simple Apollo. What, what's the, what's the, John, the future bit.

Yeah, future bit Apollo, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so he, he makes a good point in and around. If, if every, every person just kind of ran one of these, you know, little mini miners in their home, it would, like, far surpass existing hash. Like, it would, it would just, like, outpace everything. And so, like, the strength in numbers would be staggering. And I love that idea.

And I love the idea of just, and I don't know how exactly you would market it. Maybe you'd be given Fiat land. Maybe you'd market it as like pay once and get a forever lottery ticket, right? And just solo mine the shit out of everything. I've got an idea on this, right? Yeah. So, right, throughout, I live in the United States, so when I think of America, right? But most of America is hot and everybody's got a big-ass air conditioner unit, right?

It's huge. And it takes up a big part of their property. I'm imagining a world where there's like solar panels that are EMP proof and you've got a big-ass minor or like a bunch of miners set up right next to your air conditioner panel. And they're permanent. Does that increase the value of your property? I think so. If you're thinking about Bitcoin is the future, right? And if people are Bitcoiners,

if you go to buy a property and you've got a full-on Bitcoin miner and you can control the reward of that Bitcoin mining infrastructure and the energy created off of your solar panel, I think if you start, yeah, go ahead. How about one better than that? What if, like, so you live in the U.S. where it's hot, I live in Canada where it's always cold. What if your furnace was just a Bitcoin miner?

Right. Right. Exactly. It is personally offensive to me that people in the world burn gas to get heat and do not have Bitcoin in the middle. The act of burning gas should be to get Bitcoin. And then we get heat as a byproduct. Heat is the byproduct. Bitcoin is the product.

Right now, the furnace companies, everyone has it wrong. They think heat is the product. That is a byproduct of burning gas. Bitcoin allows us to dump monetary value in the middle. Am I getting, am I screaming then? You're like taking your. No, no, no, you're good. You're good.

It is. It is. I actually believe that mining is going to split here where institutional mining that we have now are just going to be energy production companies because they're the only companies on planet Earth that are truly incentivized to get cheap, like, renewable sources of, of power. That'll be institutional mining. And then retail is going to make up the majority of Bitcoin mining in, you know,

10, 15 years because every single furnace company is going to just dump mining chips into it. And furnaces only last, you know, like right now furnaces are made like garbage cans. they've lost 10, 15 years max. That's like totally reasonable for, you know, what the future of Bitcoin Asic tips are going to be. And I think that it won't even be marketed as a Bitcoin. It'll just be a furnace that is subsidized by the sellers. Like the manufacturers will just take the coins.

And that's what will subsidize furnace things. Or, and what will be better, is you buy the furnace outright. You then have the Bitcoin coming into your house. household and you stack generational wealth. This is like I bought it, you know, it's, it's an early stage product, but I bought a space heater that's literally just a Bitcoin miner. It's stunning. It's gorgeous. It looks really beautiful.

It's like, you know, it's the less cypherpunk version of the S9 with the crypto cloak that, that, you know, we've all had and seen and built. But that's like, that's the future is, is using electricity that was previously just for heat for Bitcoin and then still. getting heat. So I love your, you know, your concept. I'm like, like, yeah, like my furnace runs eight months of the year. Like, you know, it's right now it's literally I woke up. It's minus 10 outside. Like it's freezing cold here. And my furnace is running and doesn't have a Bitcoin, you know, minor in the in the middle. And that's just plain garbage. Yeah. My, My boiler is on its last year and I'm hoping that there's a product in the next year. There fully should be.

I mean, think about like, what do you use heat for? Like your hot tub, your hot water tank, your furnace, like everything. If it's heat related, if it throws heat in any capacity, it should just be a Bitcoin miner. Right. Yeah. I'm Cassions. Come say hello. Yeah.

Oh, there you. She heard you through the microphone. Yeah, you should wait for him. She's here. She's saying hi. Yeah. Here, wait. Look at this.

Watch, watch, watch. Yeah. Do you happen to have an Apple product at him? What gave it away? Watch this. I love that, like. So fast. I love that.

Like, I'll be on a, I'll be on a. call like a work call and then all of a sudden fireworks and i'm like guys it's not even their fault though it's like why why did we force this love sovereignty this is an episode i like yeah i was doing one-on-one sessions with people and on one day i was like yeah good job and then it did like the like thumbs up and i was like and then my screen froze and i was like anyways yeah um okay so In regards to, Jeff, you were saying, oh, there's got to be a product or something. A couple of, so there's a company out of actually where me and Adam are in Alberta, and they're called Cryptotherm. And they are starting to specialize in like when it's time to replace your boiler or time to replace your heater, then you can get their system installed as an option for something like that.

there's another company called Nakamoto Heating, I believe. And I think they're in that realm as well. And yeah, so like if you got a brand new, like if you just moved into a new build, it doesn't make sense to tear out your existing system and put one in. But if it's time for a replacement, it might be, it might be exactly, exactly that. It might be that time. And then the other thing that I'm, so I've got. I've got, it doesn't make sense for me to just plug it in right now, but I've got an M30 plus sitting here.

And what I'm thinking is, well, a couple of things. I don't have a garage right now. Eventually we're going to build one. And then that will just be the heating source for it. But what I would like to do is one or two things, or maybe both. But I want to do a hot tub heated by that device. vice, so immersion. But I also, I really want a sauna, like an outdoor, like one of those ones that looks like a barrel.

And I want that heated by an ASIC. So that's another possibility. And then the last thing that I was thinking is, and this will be later when my kids are older and like they don't play in the yard anymore. But I want the entire side of my house to just be a big greenhouse. And I want to heat it with an ASIC. And then we'll have to have like some sort of like humidity control. so that all the plants don't just like dry out instantly. But yeah.

It's a dry heat. Yeah, I think that what we're going to see eventually, I had this conversation with someone. We're going to. And also just to preface what I'm about to say, and I do a bad job of it too, considering my show is called Between Two A6s. But the ASIC, an ASIC is actually a singular chip.

Like in an S19J Pro, there's whatever 126 times three is. So it's actually between several hundred ASICs. But I've started to call them ASIC minors just to be more specific with it because I think that like, I mean, it's not knocking anyone for thinking an ASIC being a Bitcoin minor, like just the actual computer. Because that's what they're typically like, that's what, That's what we associated with.

However, I think I'm starting to say ASIC miners because I think there's going to be ASICs implemented in other devices that are not specifically for, you know, mining Bitcoin. There's going to be, damn it. Look, that, that was very. Actually. No, the reason I say all that, not to flex, but the reason I say all that is. that i think that asic chips are actually going to be implemented into other devices that you are going to use without knowing that it's a bitcoin miner like maybe it might it might be

marketed that way and not you know malicious where you know microwave manufacturers are just cramming asic chips in their microwave so they get the bitcoin when you use it but um like i'm talking you're going to have these warehouses of uh for literally any industry, any production, anything like that, that are going to have some sort of ASIC integration into their HVAC system, into whatever power that they're pulling to recycle that properly, rather than just plugging in a box to it, like a S19J Pro or anything like that.

But the problem is that they're so niche, I guess, that it and they require such specialization to program to work efficiently that it's going to take a lot of development and it's going to take an ASIC manufacturer to team up with some random regular industry like microwaves or something like that I don't ever think that microwaves are actually going to I used to think like what if when I turn my microwave on that's when I mind the Bitcoin I don't think it was going to happen. But I do think that I do think that, um, that ASIC chips are going to be, we're pretty far out, but they're going to be implemented in, uh, things that you don't even realize and as Bitcoin miners. And I think it may only be a little bit of a hat,

hash rate, but like you said, strength and numbers, that's going to, that's going to add up to where it's not going to be. Everyone hates to hear this, but it's true. is centralized. And I think that that's going to be a big, big solver of that problem. Yeah, I think it probably starts in the industrial, like heating schools and hospitals and big buildings because they're going to need ways to,

to, you know, subsidize. There's a company in Vancouver that's working with, I think a whiskey distillery that's, like, set up the mining infrastructure in a whiskey distillery. Yeah, yeah. Green mint. It's, I think it's,

like, that's where it goes, man. It just takes Bitcoin entrepreneurs that see the future of what Bitcoin mining is to, to make it happen. I think it's, man,

it's absolutely dynamite. I'm super bullish on the decentralization of, of mining in the future. And, yeah, man, like I said, it's just,

it's bloody offensive that we just burn gas and don't expect, like, as consumers, we should just demand Bitcoin in the middle. Like, it should offend all of us that there is no, no Bitcoin coming out of our furnace. Go ahead. I've got two points on that. And it kind of ties to another point, Tatum, that you brought up is one, I think there's probably

incentive for the government to at some point in the future to incentivize and potentially subsidize that. And two, Tatum, you brought up a seizure being a concern from the government. I think, again, in thinking through the game theory of how the government, is going to view Bitcoin. Ultimately, I personally believe they're going to get to a point where it's better for them to lean into it, as opposed to try to prevent it.

And at that point, I think they're likely going to want to protect the miners more than try to seize the miners because they want that production to happen in their country as long as that's contributing to the further economic production within that region. So I could see a world where one, either mining is potentially subsidized or it's thoroughly protected by the government at some point in a future. I'm more optimist, right?

Like, there's definitely the pessimists of you, but I like to think that the incentives are in the favor of that. Right. That's the whole preference. That's the whole premise of 51% attack. Because like if you have enough power to do a 51% attack, it is way more beneficial to just my Bitcoin and use the network and lean into it. So it's like it, but I also am curious because I would as the, you know, anarcho, you know,

I've been called a diet anarchist before. I don't know where the diet came from, obviously. But I've always thought of the government intervention as negative, but I definitely do, based on what you're saying, see that there could be a possibility of a positive intervention from the government. And it's going to be interesting to watch play out for sure, because they are going to get involved some way or the other. Yes.

Yeah. But if you think about it, right, like, let's say you've got a lot of your mining powers in Central America, and they, like, America owns 200,000 Bitcoin, and they, they want that production to continue to happen in America, not elsewhere outside. side of America. There's incentive to protect the mining community and grow the mining community as opposed to like thwart it and shove it down. So the incentive structure and the way Bitcoin is designed is all around these incentive structures. I think they'll get there. Maybe. Hopefully we'll see. Yeah. I could see to the point about governments protecting miners and

incentivizing it. I think we get there eventually. I think that governments are too stupid right now, and they haven't yet. You guys are giving the government so much credit here. Like, yeah, we think we're going to use logic to determine economic activity and protect it. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that somewhere the, the general sequence of events are Bitcoin continues to, you know, number go up continues, that exacerbates number go down of all fiat currencies. The fiat currencies that fail first are the governments most likely to, oh, fuck you, Tadam, whatever.

The fiat currencies that fail first are the ones where the governments are most likely to recognize the value of Bitcoin and thus then start down the mining rabbit hole and so and so forth, whereas the ones that still have, you know, the ability to have the exorbitant privilege of printing money that other people still see value in and use, we'll use that value as much as possible. And they may understand mining at the time simultaneously and try to capitalize on that. But eventually we get to a place where it's like, no, we want minors to be here. We think it's beneficial us having X amount of hash rate within our borders. And then we also are trying to incentivize people to come to our jurisdiction because that sovereign individual thesis is beginning to play out.

And people are jurisdiction shopping and so on and so forth. A lot of shit happens when you can't export your inflation anymore. There's a lot of things that come along with that. I mean, do you know who the largest holder of gold is? Uh, no, the US. It's the US. They have, they have 8,000 tons. It might be more than that.

Maybe it's 800,000. Anyway, they have like 10 times more the next closest country. What is what is their goal to dollar ratio? That's a good question. That's a Google. I'm not going to be able to answer that. But like they, they in, in the history of money, like they, their whole goal, was to get more wealth than anybody else.

And they did that with gold. And I wouldn't be surprised if there's some trajectory in the future where they try to do the same with Bitcoin. I mean, they kind of did it illegally, though. Oh, yeah, yeah. This is a 6102 executive order for those that, for those that don't know. Yeah, I mean, different political environment, obviously. There's a lot, the landscape was significantly different.

But, yeah, I think the landscape was kind of similar. to what it is today. It voted 90% Democrat. Right, but look at the messaging. Like when the executive order 6102 came in, they did it to incentivize economic spending. Roosevelt came out and said, you know, we're in a recession. This is so bad.

We need to incentivize spending. What are we going to do? And steal the gold was the best option to incentivize spending. And that's what like, you know, all that Fiat money coming in is what sparked spending, is what took them out of the dirty 30s, but at the detriment of us and two generations later just get absolutely bent over with Roosevelt's like cock. I mean, if you think about gold, though, it's, I don't need to explain Bitcoin to Bitcoiners, but like, right, I walked around the street, they ran the block the other day with my cold

storage wallet in my pocket just for liberation's sake. And like I couldn't do that with the amount of like gold. Totally. Totally. Same amount of. And so like the people are much more mobile now. Yeah. And that's, I think that's what like that's the, that's literally the benefit of Bitcoin over, over gold is that 60102 is not possible when Bitcoin is sitting in your individual.

I lost it. I lost it. Right. In a boating accident. The, um, I think that that's, that's the single greatest advent. of Bitcoin, which is why, and maybe we'll get into it shortly here, Jeff, but like, when people think they have Bitcoin that's sitting outside of their soul control, it irks me, because, you know, you're exposed to, at best, a honeypot and at worst, like, 6102.

And if we, like, are we not, I mean, maybe I'll let you start because this is probably a This is probably getting into Wyoming Bullish. But like, we're not hearing this language of 6102 and economic spending and like we need, you know, eat the rich. Like we're hearing this this right now. So yeah. I'm going to tap on one thing that Adam that you said earlier. And then I think I'll segue into Jeff's reason. So and and she's Jeff.

My lovely wife brought me in my my little. whiskey glass. What are you sipping on? That looks, yeah, I've got an Akashi, a single malt Japanese. Ooh, very nice. I'm, I'm, I'm drinking something called Basil Hayden. It's got a red wine cask finish. And it was my birthday, it has like a metal band around it. So I think it's fancy. That's fancy. Yeah, absolutely fancy. Yeah. So it's better than Canadian growers, I guess, right? Yes, I think so. Yeah. So I would. So I would. I want to tap on something before we kind of segue into your reason for being bullish. And that's one thing that Adam said.

Adam, you said, what's their gold to dollar ratio? And the beautiful thing about that question is it highlights how unique Bitcoin is. Because when you said, how much gold do they have versus how many dollars do exist? And the answer is nobody can know either of those. No one has any idea. Like it's just It wasn't it in Rico treated back

The other day Like here's The last time Fort Knox Was audited Was like 1970 Well probably when the dollar

Was disbanded in 74 Yeah How do you know It's not iron in there That's painted gold Yeah Yeah There was some guy

On X the other day And he tried to dunk on Bitcoin He's like This is the new logo for Bitcoin And it was a gold bar Split in half That was just filled with lead And like gold

Played it around it And And everybody was like, I don't think you understand the irony of posting this as a dunk on Bitcoin because every person running a Bitcoin node can independently verify the validity of their Bitcoin with no additional effort other than just receiving it. Yeah. I mean, that's what's so sick about the bitwise showing proof of reserves. That is the most transparent investment product in the globe.

Yeah. That's true. I mean, like, you know, like, when, when Bucheli posted his address, that was like, like, that's unreal.

That's just so sick. Yeah. It's a cool, it's a, it's a cool concept that, like, I love the idea of a, you know,

if governments have a Bitcoin treasury, I love the idea of, um, publicly audible addresses and regular, um, message signing with the keys to prove that they still have access to it. So like regular, this is the Alberta government or this is the Canadian government or this is the El Salvador government or this is, and I do those in order of just, you know, where I am.

But like, this is this government. We have the following keys. We're signing this message that pertains to these addresses. We own this and we still have access. And having, I'm of the opinion that as an individual managing your own finances, you should have the utmost. assumption of innocence until proven guilty and the utmost privacy. But as an individual or an entity that has to take care of other people's wealth, you deserve the utmost scrutiny and absolute transparency in everything that you do. And so every person should be able to independently audit what's there at all times and you should have regular key checks proving that you have what you say you have.

Say less. But yeah, I mean, but this is something that Bitcoin allows us, right? This is something that can be done. And I see the tools being built for it right now. And that's, that's super awesome. All right. So with that, I'm going to now rotate. I'm going to toss it to Jeff.

Jeff, I'm going to ask you the same question every gets. That is. Why are you bullish? friend. Okay. I'm both for a lot of reasons. We're in an exciting time. But I'm going to talk about micro strategy a little bit just because that's, I've got some expertise. I've spent a lot of time analyzing this and thinking through this. So I am bullish because Michael Saylor is leveraging an aging Fiat infrastructure and design to onboard traditional finance, onto the Bitcoin network at an accelerated speed.

I'm going to stop there. He has raised $1.4 billion in the last month to buy Bitcoin through his company, which will unload more money into the Bitcoin network and the Bitcoin ecosystem. It is moving faster than the Bitcoin ETFs. It is moving faster than retail can move. and it will have the ability to onboard more traditional finance in perpetuity to the Bitcoin network.

So that is one reason I'm incredibly bullish. Damn. I don't know if I want to dive into this first or if Adam, you look like you had some thoughts. Yeah, no. It's polarizing. It's super polarizing. And I love talking about it. So like we can talk about any topics anywhere you want to go with this.

it's definitely like I agree with what you said that he's onboarding Tradfai at an alarming rate and frankly I think he's doing it right where he's got a business a core business that prints cash he uses the cash to pay debt

and he's able to stack you know earlier but I think there's a potential flaw in and and a well there's like there's the there's the immediate flaw and then the general you know overarching potential flaw where, you know, micro strategies is still a centralized entity. People think that buying that, people could think that buying that is, is better than Bitcoin, which is a problem.

And Saylor himself, I think, is a problem. That's a problem. Yeah. But the way that he's doing it should be a note to other institutions on what to do with your profits and how to leverage your P&L for the benefit of your company. However, like we talked about it earlier. We hinted on it earlier as Bitcoin, you know, we kind of hinted at the investment versus the savings like aspect and how, you know, when you invest in something, you're

immediately looking at the price to sell to do what? Like to just like, what are you going to trade your Bitcoin for dollars? You like let us hand it buffoon. Like, why are you doing that? and and when you save in something you want to accumulate well when you're accumulating something you want to accumulate as much as possible and so like sailors a little bit pricing us out he's certainly pricing my kids out of mass accumulation game for the benefit of the bagholder and like you know the bag holder isn't necessarily uh here for freedom here for his great grand

daughter here for, you know, the lady whose husband was in jail and Bitcoin saved her. So I don't think, I think it prevents us from accumulating more sats. And I mean, like, think about a world where if every single company took that approach, let's just to say every company worth $100 billion or more took that approach, there could be a world where Bitcoin skyrockets, right? like let's say way earlier than it should let's say it's worth 150 million US dollars you know way before that epoch makes sense and way before fiat has fell that to that level because the scarcity of supply is there but then if that can happen like the reverse can happen and inevitably like when that debt comes due sailors got a dump and and that's going to no how do you figure he has going to leverage his coins he has 12 times more assets than he does debt at the moment yeah so that's the debt has to get sold to pay it back

no that's not how the traditional finance system works he can he can refinance debt you can always take out more debt the capital markets like always exist i you know i i understand your perspective but i i think And I think this is a challenging topic, right? Because it's easy to go to like straight to hyper-bitcoinization without understanding a transition. Right. There's got to be a transition. Like there will be a transition.

There will always be fiat dollars for the next like 20 years. So how do we how do we get there and how do we onboard the world? And I think micro strategy will be the liquidity bringing. like more money to the world. They're like the road and the vehicle by which on boards traditional finance into the Bitcoin ecosystem. They're also providing proof of concept for generating a yield on your cold storage Bitcoin. Like without them, it's like.

How do you figure that? What's walk me through that? So if you think about, if you think about, so I'm a trad by guy. I'm a big finance guy. So I work with big dollars. big companies have the benefit of holding tons of assets that they can use as collateral to get more beneficial terms than retail investors can get. Right.

But most of those assets, though, are either like fixed or protected. And Bitcoin is neither, meaning like, you know, look at property, right? Property is like a pretty common one that somebody would, would own or hold. like if you lose the title to your property, you just go to the property title place and go to new one. It's not a company, getting new title. Yeah, like you're not really, you're not really, and like you're not going to lose the building

because it's like nailed to the floor. And so it's like relatively safe, right? You feel comfortable giving up your collateral in your building because like you're not going to lose it. And the title is just fake. So who cares if you lose that? Yeah. But when you give up your private key, like let's say, let's say you're using my company.

I'm going to take your Bitcoin and give you and give you a loan. And you take the loan and you do something else with it. And then I have, you know, a flaw in my storage because I'm dumb. Well, like someone else can just steal your Bitcoin. Like you trusted me with your Bitcoin. And I gave you favorable terms or unfavorable terms, whatever. they are. And I said, don't worry, our security is very good. And it wasn't because it's a honeypot or because I have a rogue employee or because I'm a bad guy or whatever. And that's, I think,

the greatest divide between these traditional collateral assets and Bitcoin is that if you lose Bitcoin, it's gone. No asset on planet Earth has acted this way. Like, you know, the banking system, the collateral asset system, when you lose it, you just print another one. But With Bitcoin, you don't get to do that. Yeah. Yes and no. I agree to disagree. I've got a couple of things on that.

Where is it going to go with this? Can I say your last point again? Oh, man. I was in there. Properties nailed to the floor. Yeah. You're not going to lose property. Okay.

Here we go. Okay. Let's think about a Bitcoin future, right? How does an economy work? how does any economy work like how do businesses work uh the business produces value that consumers want to to consume and so but if you if you had a business idea how would you go start it without any money right yes so this is this is exactly where like like you're mentioning the the tradfine need you got to go borrow money you got to have someone believe in your vision

and either borrow or sell future equity uh to do that you need two things right You need lending and you need insurance. I don't care about the insurance part, but you definitely need, you definitely need to start a capital. Without insurance, the world would be too risky to do anything. Anything, though? I think without insurance, our litigious culture would fall down, but without litigation. Think about the cargo. Think about cargo.

Yeah. Think about if your cargo ship was not insured. Think about how you get your goods. Well, all, all insurances is paying someone else for risk, right? So there is a like, like I self-insure most all of my assets because like I just don't trust that the insurers will come to come to my aid when I, when I need them. But I'm on a small scale too, right? Um, for sure, cargo and and there's all kinds. There's, there's a whole, there's a whole rigamarole around the, the finance games and and the insurance.

But I don't know that we need debt. Yeah. is a world. Can you mind if I just, so I'm somewhere, I'm somewhere in between. So I think I think that we'll have, I think that we'll have a hybrid, but I think, you know, like, Jeff, you're, you're in this kind of, as you said, like you're coming from a trad pie kind of fiat's still going to exist and everything. And, and out of it, you know, yeah, for a while.

And also, I like that you're like, clearly in your brain, you're like, all throughout a conservative number of how long fiat's going to be around. You're like, 20 years. But nonetheless, so you're coming from like, okay, fiat existing. I think maybe myself, along with Adam a little bit, we're thinking kind of maybe beyond like a post-fiat world. you know, in when Bitcoin is kind of more, like in a world where Bitcoin is more widely used as just money. And that's kind of like the meaning of exchange.

I think we end up in a place where, one, as Adam alluded to, you may not require debt to get an idea off the ground. You may just have a skill that, or you may, you know, be just like, you know, get a job. save some money because you're spending less than you earn, put money aside to then fund a new venture that you can then create and kind of like bootstrap it a little bit more organically and it gradually grows and so on and so forth. And I think that there will still be instances of people borrowing to get stuff off the ground. I don't think that's going away, but I think that it will be in a world where it's a lot, people are a lot more conscientious of where they put their capital when, as Adam is saying, like, no take-backsees, right?

Like it goes into somebody's wallet and if they fuck around, you get to find out in those scenarios, right? And so I think we get to a situation. Again, this is post-Fiat because Fiat, as long as Fiat's still around, the fuckery is a foot, right? Like there's always like, there's always a way to get bailed out. There's always like more Fiat to like fill in the holes. And, you know, there's always, you know, re-hypublication and fractional, there's all that kind of stuff.

But on a Bitcoin standard, a lot of that stuff is kept much more in check. And it's, I don't think it disappears, but it's greatly reduced and people more accurately assess the risk because there is risk. And it's a lot more prevalent. I don't know what you think about that. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, right? I mean, we're talking about a 15-year-old asset. So it's hard to understand what like 15 years from now, what multi-sig vaults and wallets look like, which could be far more complex and far more business conducive.

Like the risk can be mitigated in the future. I think it's naive to think that it won't. I think to a point you are and just a side note, anybody watching, check out what Anchor Watch is doing in and around multi-sake. Yeah, yeah. I connected with Becca at Anchor Watch a couple months ago. I think they've got it. So their infrastructure and their design effectively provides the financial backstop for corporations like the FDIC would, like today with banks. And that design makes it far more favorable for a corporation to hold Bitcoin in perpetuity because they know they have some insurance potentially sitting behind it.

It's an interesting, it's a really fascinating concept. I think the proof of concept will bear out in the next decade for sure. Interesting. Yeah, and it was exactly that same person. When I was in Madeira just like a few weeks ago, I was at dinner and I sat beside Becca and I asked her about Anchor Watch and then an hour and a half later of me being silent and her like ranting about everything they're doing.

I was like, holy shit. I have no concept of anything that was possible. in and around multi-sig and now like my mind is blown. Yeah, they're her and Rob and everybody at Anchor Watch is like so far ahead. Yeah, I had lunched with Becca and it ruined like my next couple of weeks. Like I was just like my brain. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They're definitely doing really, really cool stuff. And I love the fact that what they're doing in and around in and around multi-sig. It doesn't require changes to Bitcoin. They're just using. miniscript and they're just doing awesome things with it but it's it's quite the feet what they've pulled off and what you're going to be seeing from them pretty soon so um i want to talk about

micro strategy a little bit more and adam i'm curious to get your thoughts on this i think um one this is a really off-the-wall concept but i find it really fascinating so i don't know how much you understand or study the stock market but um within the stock market there are dark pools dark pools are where big trades happen in behind the scenes. So like anybody that's moving hundreds of millions of dollars of shares, it happens off network. And you don't see those transactions happen to avoid massive changes in the price. Now, when you think about a future Bitcoin world where 99% of the Bitcoin has been mined and there's far less Bitcoin available on exchanges, how does an entity or a company or a country buy thousands of Bitcoin in one fell swoop? Yes, this is, this is the question.

You don't. But that's the point is that we can't introduce new Fiat just in, in, or like new money. New money can't come in unless there's an equal trade for value. If I give you X SATs worth of value, then I get those Xs because I have done the work in the past to earn that and I trade it. The only way for a company to give you to earn SATs is to earn the SATs, to spend less than they generate. The way for a country to earn is to use the resources that that country has to mine or produce value to also earn the stats. So here's, I can see micro strategy being a bank of the future. where they provide liquidity for dark pool transactions because they are the ones with liquidity.

I think dark pool transactions are a thing of the past. The only reason they exist is because we've got this Fiat ecosystem that is out of balance, right? We know the Fiat ecosystem. Hold on. Let's define dark pool transactions for anybody that's watching. That's like, why I miss that? A dark pool transaction would be something that's not happening on an exchange and happens over time behind the scenes.

So how I'm imagining this is Saudi Arabia goes to BlackRock and says, I want to buy 5,000 Bitcoin via your ETF. But there's only a thousand Bitcoin being traded on exchanges at any one time. And so BlackRock would, they wouldn't want to buy all the $1,000 of the Bitcoin trading on exchanges because that would rocket the price because there would be no more or Bitcoin left trading on the margin. I'm imagining a world where they would borrow the Bitcoin needed in the interim from Saylor or somebody else to buy that amount of Bitcoin over time

in order to minimize the price volatility of Bitcoin so it doesn't run away. So they're, hold on. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, so they borrow Bitcoin at X the interest rate. And is this, okay, is this current Fiat land? It's in between. It's like it's like the transition time. You know, this isn't really off the wall. This is a really off the wall idea. But like Bitcoin is the best collateral in the world. So, you know, if, if you're, if, if Black Rock fails that transaction, micro strategy owns Black Rock. That's collateral. I think we're, I think we're giving too much power to government here and to countries here who within the Fiat regime, which like, I think I saw it in the chat earlier. And okay, let's back up.

Take your time. Yeah. Safe Fadine had this wicked take about the transition to Bitcoin relating to the transition to gunpowder. And like we look at technology kind of like this, right? It's like, oh, look at these cute graphs. Look at these cute curves. Like the internet adoption was so nice and it was gradually. And then, you know, that bell curve that comes in and off we go.

But if we look at the adoption of gunpowder, it's like this. It's because it's vertical. It's straight vertical. It's vertical. Because if you don't adopt gunpowder, you just die. Like, it's just like, I'm coming to my fight with my spear. And the guy's like, you know, like, whatever, 100 feet away. you're dead see you later nice try so you either died or you adopted and and that's why it's

it's just straight vertical and so i think that when we say saudi arabia is going to come in with their big swinging dick because that's what they've done in the past like the answer is just no you don't get to manipulate this environment you don't get to print more of your garbage war dollars to buy my precious asset and so i don't know that that like this is this is like this is literally the power of bitcoin is it puts governments in their place it puts governments in a spot where they don't have power you can't just come swing your tiny cock around that is that is fiat inflated and and think you're going to win you just but but hold on there but hold on there think about the incentives right black rock do the incentive

they're going to get paid 20 basis points on 200 billion dollars in what though in a dollar that's inflating at 400% a year? You know. Is that enough? That's a good. It's a good. To give up your hard asset to give up the asset that can't be undone, to give up the asset.

Good point. It is literally programmed to have no cap. It's 20 basis points enough to take something that's inflating because I wouldn't take Venezuelan dollars. I wouldn't take pesos. I wouldn't take the Turkish lira. I wouldn't take the Frank. I hear you.

I hear you. The U.S. dollar is crumbling. Where does that threshold happen then? So like, Jeff, when you, when you, when you, when you're, looking at this like you know you i know you just kind of threw out like oh 20 years from now like here's the interim but like how long do you see this type of again because it is like a a very kind of i don't do you consider a fiat based um mechanism that you're you're kind of describing here

yeah i think it's probably near that 2034 time horizon like when 99 percent of of the Bitcoin is mine. The world is going to look way different than it does today. The dollar is still going to be here, though. But in what price? It doesn't matter. Well, the Venezuelan dollar still exists.

It's just useless. But people still use it. And like the government is still going to use it. You're like, I'm going to pay my taxes in it. Like if I'm still working in America. You could pay your taxes in Bitcoin at Bitcoinwell.com if you wanted. The same most pocket there

So what I will say So I'm going to play devil's advocate too Because I'm I The reason I say this because I'm mostly Like I'm on the wavelength of Adam But what I'm going to do is I'm going to draw I'm kind of I'm going to outline

A conversation that I had with my barber And he's from Lebanon And so So, you know, I'm I'm low-key, gradually orange-pilling him over time, and he's kind of interested. I think his buddy at the barbershop got burned on like Luna or some shit. So he's cautious, but, you know. So anyways, so I'm chatting to him. And he goes back to Lebanon from time to time, family, all that.

And so I brought up the other day. I was like, oh, shit, like, it's been kind of crazy there with hyperinflation. I saw people like, you know, protests and people get like, you know, running into banks and like demanding their money back and all this kind of stuff. And he's like, yeah. Oh, well. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, he's like, it's not as bad as you say. And I'm like, okay, so no, but but tell me like what elaborate on that.

Because it sounds like everybody lost out of their money. He's like, oh, no, they absolutely did. But the thing is, when you've saved up your. entire life and then you lose everything you lose 99.99 and then and it's just gone like you're really, really angry when it happens and you know your currency is shit. And then what happens after? Well, you just kind of like you you're already lost all your savings. And so then what? well, then you just, you keep working because you just, you know, you already lost it all. You have to.

And you're earning the local currency. And now your behaviors just shift a little bit and you just spend your paycheck faster. And you buy whatever the hell you need. But like the damage is already done. The money's already gone. You already don't have any savings. And so people have just like, the shock happened. And there was the massive like, and this is why there's not riots.

in the street because it happens all at once. Everybody freaks the fuck out. They, you know, they set fire to some banks or they hold up some banks to be able to take out their own money. And then... Yeah, and then it's done. And then they recognize that the currency is shit.

And they're just kind of like, well, I'm earning it. And then I'm just going to like spend it right away and like get the things that I need right away. And I just won't, I won't do that anymore. And so like, yeah, the, so the currency and the most worrying this conversation was most worrying for me because I was like think of how much worse it would have to get in the West to replicate what happened in Lebanon and he's saying well it happened and you know then we just continued living and I guess our currency just sucks now like it could

take a long time it could take a really it could take a really really really long time and it worries me It worries me that like, you know, and it worries me mostly, not for myself, because like, everybody in this call, we've already opted out, right? We've already said like, geez, our currency really sucks. And we've got some of the best currencies out of all of the crappy options. And we've just decided not to use them anymore. But I'm worried for the people that I know that don't understand what's coming. And that will be that guy that's like, well, I guess I lost everything and everything's horrible.

horrible now, but I guess now I'll just continue working forever and I'll just spend my money really fast. And imagine that life. And that's super unfortunate. It sucks. It totally sucks. I think that the really frustrating part is like money, the concept of money is almost genetic.

Right? Like you are just, you just start living in this world and like what you know about money is what your parents taught you about money and what they know about money is what their parents taught them about money. That's just kind of like all you know. And it's hard to break that, like genetic predisposition to what you know about money. And it's going to take a long time in order to really break the mold and break off from that, I think. Yeah.

I want to let you finish because we got on some tangents there. I want to let you like. My bad. It's all good. It's all good. There's great points. I want you to kind of get out. You said you wanted to go on a little bit of like a micro strategy tangent there.

So I want to let you have that before I'm conscious of time. I got to round out in a little bit. But I want you to get down your points there. Let's do it pretty quick. What micro strategy is doing and Michael, Michael Saylor is doing is the biggest financial move in the history of finance. Hands down. nobody has ever done this before nobody has moved a currency from one currency to another currency

let alone the strongest currency in the entire planet they have 10 times more than any other company in the entire stock market if you start to think about how much money it would take for any other company to catch them it's pretty staggering to think about right like if you're talking about $12 billion worth of Bitcoin today. If you were to have a new entrant come in and buy $12 billion worth of Bitcoin, it wouldn't cost $12 billion. It probably costs $60 to $70 because it would run up the price, right? It would rocket up the price. So who's got $60 billion or $100 billion that can catch them? And there's probably two companies in my mind in the entire stock market that could possibly do it. It's a Berkshire Hathaway and they're never going to do it. And it's meta. And so

they would have to act like today. They would have to start buying today. And they're probably not. So they got to get past their board and do all of that stuff. You know, Mark Zuckerberg's got 61% ownership rights. So maybe he could possibly do it, but he would have to move fast. So, you know, I've kind of gone on a couple of, I've gone on Preston Pish's show and, you know, put out some research on this.

But when you zoom out and you start to look at micro strategy relative to any other company in the stock market. You start to look at their monopoly on Bitcoin holdings, I think they should probably be valued as such as having a monopoly on Bitcoin holdings. They're currently a $30 billion market cap company. And the largest market cap company in the market right now is Microsoft at $3 trillion. So that's 100x from here. And in thinking about how the stock market works and the design of the stock market, the micro strategy, Micro Strategy shares are currently more rare than Bitcoin.

I'm probably going to get flack for this. Actually, I'm going to take a step back. I'm a big advocate on Bitcoin cold storage. You need to understand Bitcoin and you need to have your Bitcoin stack figured out. And if you have any capital allocated in like 401Ks or like tax advantaged accounts and you're considering between a Bitcoin ETF or micro strategy, it's worth considering the potential of all of them. before you allocate any assets.

So that's my kind of disclaimer, right? Like I'm a Bitcoin maxi. I also own micro strategy. Improval. Because you know, like, there's a pitch for it. But it's like, I'm not gonna sell money out of my 401K, take a taxable event, and then pay a 10% penalty

to go buy Bitcoin coal storage when I already know that I have multiples more than the average allocation if it were split evenly across the entire population. So like I feel pretty comfortable with that. There's an argument that you should though. I hear you. I hear you. I love, but should you?

Yeah, I hear it. I get it. This is probably the most debated thing on Twitter right now is like how to allocate. It's like there's no fucking right answer. And everybody's got their own perspective and their own goals and their own strategy and their own wealth perspective.

and like their own time horizon and their own like where their money is located. And all of that is a is a very uniquely personal and deeply personal equation that they need to figure out themselves. But my argument is that micro strategy should probably be valued as the most valuable company in the entire stock market. And that's like period. I put a period on it because they have more Bitcoin than anybody else and I don't think anybody is going to catch them. And I mean, go ahead. I was just going to say, like, I think that, okay, I see that argument, absolutely. The other thing that I think is that this particularly holds true in a hyper-bitonized world,

because what does that collateral allow them to do and build with their company? Because at that point, like, let's say way down the road, everybody's got Bitcoin. it's already had like it's crazy like S-curve and and it's just kind of now gradually deflationary. In a world like that, if you invest in something, you're investing because you believe it's a better venture and will grow quicker than the gradual deflationary purchasing power of Bitcoin as is. And in that scenario, you're looking at companies that have like a massive treasury that can afford to build and do really cool shit and create value for a lot of people. people and micro strategy is going to be uniquely positioned to be like, hey, we can build literally whatever the fuck we want. And we've got the treasury to back it up and like come work for us. Come work for us. We have the best stock plan and the and the best compensation plan in the entire market. And guess what? It's Bitcoin denominated. Yeah. Like they're going to be able to hire the best talent in the entire industry to build out whatever the fuck they want. Yeah. It'll be. Valories is is unreal. I'm there. But I think, amen.

I think, though, that the reason micro strategy is not currently valued at this is the most valuable companies is because of physics. And they don't hold $3 trillion worth of Bitcoin. And the difference between them holding $3 trillion of Bitcoin from, like, we know they will eventually. but the fact that they are subject to regulation are subject to like 6102 are subject to coinbases like problems are subject to the volatility of the stock market like if they're like there was a time not long ago like months ago where if their share price fell what was it another 10% half their stack was liquidated to pay that debt down they are so the difference between you know, they're valued at a massive premium to their current assets because it's Bitcoin. And they're already gaining that benefit. But they'll never be, you know, extraordinarily priced more, like more so than whatever the premium on Bitcoin is going to be.

Because there's just significant risks and fiat games that can be played. Like the, because micro strategies can go up at an insane rate, it can fall at an insane rate. And when they go up at an insane rate, it's awesome. You print more shares and get more Bitcoin. It's like, hooray. But when they fall at an insane rate, it's like you just lose Bitcoin. And that risk is priced in. It's outsized price in the bull markets.

And it is extremely priced in the bear markets. And when the Bitcoin, go ahead. I disagree. And I disagree because the design of the stock market is different than you outlined. No, it's designed. It's designed to concentrate. So, yeah, right. So micro strategy is a publicly traded entity that's included in exchange traded funds.

Some of the largest, if you look at some of the largest entities that are traded in the stock market, they're traded. at significant multiples looking at 10, 20, 30 year time horizons. The only reason they're looking at 10 to 20, 30 year time horizons, and the only way you're rationalizing it is because of passive ETF money that's sitting in these companies. So micro strategy is in multiple market cap weighted index funds currently. So as their market cap increases, the relative weight of new dollars going into those index funds also increases. So their market cap is increasing at an increasing rate. And right now, hold on, right now their Bitcoin is that their cost basis on their Bitcoin is

$32,000, $35,000, whatever it is. But it's significantly, we're in a completely different time frame than where we were in the last cycle, right? Fundamentally different. Their risk of liquidation is significantly less than what it was previously relative to their debt. Completely different time, time horizon. Additionally, you've got the potential of them getting out of the S&P 500, which represents four out of the five largest passively traded index ETS in the globe. We're talking like potentially $20 to $30 billion of capital looking to buy micro strategy shares and never selling within the next 12 months.

They're not currently part of the S&P 500. That's a huge whale on the horizon that literally buys every single day, every month. These are people investing their 401ks, insurance companies, pension funds that are passive zombies that don't know what they're doing. And that money is going to be flowing into micro strategy and they're not even going to know. And that concept is why the MAG7 is valued so high. because like for example the s mp 500 index owns 6% of apple 6% we're talking billions of shares that's just the s mp 500 you're talking QQQ Russell 1000 like this is this is fundamental design of the stock market and it's flawed and Michael sailor is going to take advantage of that

And I think he will. And well, I think he is. He is. I've got to run in seven minutes, by the way. Okay. So I've got something very quick to say then. You're talking about a system that is incestuous that will continue to be incestuous until it ultimately collapses.

And I think that just because the converts. Converts. It doesn't get to convert. It's going to convert to Bitcoin. I don't think it can. And the reason I don't think it can is because of insurance and bureaucrat. So your iPhone dies. Your Apple stock is dead.

Oh, those are bold. That's bold. Are you saying that like, are you saying that the stock market in general dies or like it just gets completely, the basis of which it works is just completely retooled? Like, where are you getting at, Adam? Yeah. I think I'm getting at when you play the, the Fiat games that exist inside. the Fiat world cannot all simultaneously be applied to Bitcoin without consequence.

And I think that when we talk about this idea that companies have the same benefit to Bitcoin as individuals, I think we're missing the fact that the number go up technology that Bitcoin has is 10% of what gives Bitcoin value because the government, government comes in and takes micro strategy coins all day long. The guys holding micro strategy keys at Coinbase can steal those all day long. The share price, like we can see activist shareholders and they're kind of getting priced out of this world right now, but there is a world where an activist shareholder can, who wants to accumulate Bitcoin with, I don't know, let's call it $30 billion, can come in,

just short the fuck out of micro strategies, have their price collapsed, get those coins dumped, have the coin price fall and then accumulate, make the gains on the short and then simultaneously accumulate. Like there's just Fiat games that we can play. And so where I'll end this rant in the conservation of time is that I think those are a lot of great models, but all of your models are devastated, completely destroyed and do not work in a hyper-biturinized world. Yeah.

That's fair. I get it. I think I'd just argue that there's a transition that occurs between. Interesting. I'm going to cut the debate because clearly there's no there's no in this five minutes that we have left. But what I will say is I would be much more bullish on micro strategy if it's self-custodied. Oh. I would love that.

I would love to see that because that would in my mind would reduce the again like the the the, the risk, yes, of course, you're like, the counterparty risk, right? Like, you're, yes, you're investing in micro strategy, you're, you're trusting them that, uh, they're going to do something responsible with the Bitcoin. You're like, you are going to be diluted for your shares because they're going to sell more shares and buy more Bitcoin. But besides the point, um, with, with all of that on top of that, you're stacking like, holy shit, Coinbase has how much Bitcoin for how many different people and that that's, like that's a big honeypot.

Nonetheless, I do recognize... Not just Coinbase, by the way. Yeah, not just Coinbase. Yeah, there's others too. Yeah. But nonetheless, the county party risk does factor into my valuation of things. And at the end of the day, I do recognize that, I mean, Microstrategy as a company, they're fucking doing it right, obviously.

They're like, they're, they make a profit, they spend less than they earn, and then they're saving in Bitcoin. So they're, again, like the kind of like the, the, the tricel. Effecta, right? Create value for others, spend less than you earn, saving Bitcoin, and you're fucking, you got it made. And so like, that's good advice for a person, let alone a company. And companies that don't make a profit can't do that. And so this is kind of the world that we're in right now. And so, yeah, I mean, it's an exciting time. I get the push and pull in each direction. And, and it's weird because I think that that transition is, is, is. going to be an odd one and nobody's going to quite know where the chips lie like before, during, and after. And I'd say we're kind of like in the early during phase of it. And we'll see what happens. But either way, I got to round it out. So gentlemen, before we log off here, I like to quickly just get any, like a quick snippet of a final thought and like a recommendation

from people, guests on the show. So final thought for me is, I mean, Bitcoin. point has its tendrils and everywhere and it's and it's changing the very fiber of the reality that we're experiencing like on an individual level on a company level on a human rights perspective like it's just it's everywhere and it's beginning to affect everyone and we've just begun to kind of see that and the average person doesn't even notice yet and and they will and so that's very exciting for me my recommendation for people would be go check out go check out the H-R-F thing that I'm involved in. I really, really am excited about it and I want to see more people go check it out. So basically, if you just find Alex Gladstein, just at Gladstein on Twitter,

he tweeted about it and how some links. I mean, if you want to share it around, I think it's an important thing. I'm happy to be a part of it. So that would be my recommendation there. But Adam, I'll toss it to you. Any quick final thoughts, recommendations that you might have? Big ups to Jeff. That was super fun, man. I love going back and forth. I totally agree with Ben.

It's like it's so good how Bitcoin can be different things to different people. At the end of the day, Bitcoin is a representation of the value that an individual or an entity can produce. I think that's what makes it so pure and so beautiful. It's like below the M0. It's like it's the OG baseline. of value and I think that's absolutely epic. Recommendation, I would be remiss not to say here we are on Good Friday. My friend Alan Armstrong wrote a book called The Bible and Bitcoin.

It's dynamite represents how the whole Bitcoin journey funnels toward God. So go read that. It's super, super fascinating and interesting. And I don't think people will get what they expect from that. Awesome. I also want to get speaking of, I'm not a super religious person, but there's a guy that I quite like that's been on the show. before. I was,

as I was organizing the panel here, I saw tweets afterwards of inviting, asking him to come on for Good Friday, but I had already kind of lined up the panel. So I will give a, I think that might be, it might be, yeah,

that's Alan Armstrong. That's who wrote the book. Yeah. Yeah, he's, he's an awesome dude. And so I didn't see his tweets until afterwards, and it would have been a very excellent thing

to incorporate into the show. So Alan, Sorry about that, but do go check out his book. Adam, can you give the book a plug one more time just so we funnel some people? It's called the Bible and Bitcoin. It's awesome. Yeah, definitely awesome. The Bible and Bitcoin by Alan Armstrong.

Alan's like weird, A-L-I-N, I think. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, cool. Awesome. Well, yeah, shout it to Alan, aka Pastor Coin on X. Jeff, I'll toss it to you. Final thoughts, recommendations. Go ahead.

Perfect. I love the fact that I'm with Canadians. The sorries are awesome. I love it. Final thoughts, the Bitcoin having is what, 20 days away, 22 days away. We got a lot of bull indicators on the horizon. It is going to be a next, the next 24 months are going to be a ton of fun. My recommendation, I'm sure everybody that's watching this is already done an on-chain

transaction, but go secure your Bitcoin, go take it off of exchanges, go do an on-chain transaction and figure it out. You see the math in first person. It's like it's the coolest thing. And it gives you so much conviction in any Bitcoin related trade that you do. Awesome. Number one recommendation. Yeah.

Cool. All right. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Tatum also said, sorry, his computer died. He couldn't stick it out. You know, he's been, he sold all his chairs, all his furniture. And I guess his computer has now gone to. So the truest Bitcoin are out of all of us.

But gentlemen, thank you for being here. have a great weekend, a great Easter weekend, and I'll see you both again soon. You're welcome back. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. Catch you later. See you later.

All right. And everybody in the chat, thank you guys for being here. Really appreciate you guys spending an awesome Friday evening getting bullish with me at Good Friday. And to those of you that celebrate, very happy, good Friday in Easter weekend. I hope you have a great one. Again, everybody that's been watching, please do. If you can, like, subscribe, share all those. things super awesome follow the gents that were on the show all their links are down below of course

adam at bitcoin well again now a uh a partner of the channel again long time friend so happy to be working with him and he's he's honestly he's fucking killing it so go check out bitcoin well.com uh they're awesome uh but of course uh you can like subscribe share uh if you want to continue to check out everything that's happening here and uh you can also head over to my website btc sessions. If you ever have any trouble and the tutorials on the channel aren't quite cutting it, you need some handholding. I can help you along the way. Anyways, with that, enough of my rambling.

I'm going to call it a night. Thank you guys so much for being here. Have a wonderful day or evening, wherever you may be. See you guys next time for your daily session.