BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Anita Posch, Lyn Alden, Steve Lubka ep366

Episode Date: September 30, 2023

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? And damn, we have a killer panel here this evening. Very excited to have everybody on the show. We have a return guest and a couple brand newbies to the show. Of course, I know them, but I'm first time on a Friday panel. So I'm very excited to have them all. We'll do some intros momentarily. Of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So as usual, I'm going to defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. The thing sucks.

If you have not already, please do like, subscribe, share that little like button. It's just right below the screen there and it really does help a ton when you tap it. So give it a little love tap if you can. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. Before we bring in our panel, let's take a quick look at where we are in the market right now. This is timechain calendar.com. We're sitting at $26,909 per coin.

A single US dollar will grab you 3,716 sats. In terms of fees, it looks like everything's being purged. It would seem that blockchain JPEGs are not in as high demands today. six sats per bite across the board. Just beware if you're sending anything sub three sats per byte, it may be purged from the mempool. And in terms of Bitcoin mine, 19.5 million of them. That's 92.86% of the entire supply.

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for me. Anyways, if you want to reserve that or pick up anything here, go to coincide.com. Use code BTC sessions for 5% off everything in the store. Of course, backups are important. You guys probably saw my recent review slash video on the C door, which is a super robust steel backup system capsule and disk design. If you want to learn more about them and everything's all there. But the starter set comes with everything you need for either one or two seeds, depending on what version you get. And these guys are awesome. So be sure to check them out. Nunchuk, you know what? I'm going to talk about them. Spoiler alert. I'm going to talk about them a little bit in the show. So we'll chat about them when we get into things because they just

dropped some exciting stuff to pass a little bit. And last shout out here, I want to give a shout to start nine sovereign computing solution. So this is where you can use a plug and play device to run your whole Bitcoin stack and a whole bunch of other things. So Bitcoin Core, Lightning node, Mempool. Space, files, passwords, photos, photos, Noster relays even, a ton of different stuff here. They've got plug-and-play devices from like entry level all the way to what I'm running, which is the Start9 server pier. So you can check them out, start9.com.

Anyways, with that, I'm going to stop my renting. Let's get our guests in here. Let's get rolling here. So I want to welcome to the stage, Anita and Steve and Lynn. I'm so glad to have you all. Thank you for joining me. And for those unfamiliar and actually, you know what? We'll bring in one other, which is the audience.

So everybody that's in the chat, I've seen your messages coming in, but now everything for better or worse, will be right alongside us as we chat. So feel free to throw in your comments and questions on the side there. But nonetheless, let's do a round of intros before we dive in. I'll toss it to Anita first. Welcome to your technically first time on the show. Can you give yourself an intro? Sure.

Thank you very much for the invitation. I waited a long time for that, to be honest. So yeah, my name is Anita Posh and I'm a Bitcoin educator and most work I have been doing in recent years in the South African region with my non-profit initiative, Bitcoin for fairness, because I believe that these are the countries and the places where people need Bitcoin really the most. And I'm a book author and also now I have a new program called Crack the Orange, which is a membership and online learning program for newbies and people who want to learn more about Bitcoin. And also it's a train to trainer program because I want to help share knowledge to build more Bitcoin educators on the ground. because in African countries, in those I visited, I experienced that there is really a lack of well-educated people to share the Bitcoin idea. And that's what I'm doing at the moment. I love that.

Yeah, I think it's a, you hit the nail on the head. I think it's very important that those regions of the world get a little extra TLC because they often get neglected. and, you know, Bitcoiners should focus some energy down there for sure. Awesome. Well, Steve, I'm going to toss it to you. Thank you also for joining first time on the show. Can you give yourself a little intro? Yeah, pleasure to be here. Longtime fan.

And so I lead Swan Private for Swan Bitcoin. That's Swan's High Net Worth division. We do have a whole team set up to doing concierge white glove calls with high net worth investors that are, are looking to navigate Bitcoin. And we help orange pillows people, get them set up, help navigate self-custody, help navigate any questions they have. It's been such a pleasure doing it. I've run that side of the house for three years. And I mean, just worked with thousands of people across the globe and heard their Bitcoin stories and, you know, why they're getting into it and what they're

interested in. It's just been such a rewarding process and journey. So that's what I do. And I'm also So well known on Twitter for being the walking and sunlight guy. You know what? I've thoroughly enjoyed seeing that you're doing effectively walking podcasts now, which is great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. If you ever need a walking guest, I will gladly come join you in a walk in my part,

unless it's minus 30 degrees here. Even still, that might make for a good episode. So we'll see. Well, you just signed up for it. So it's actually awesome. I'll bundle up then. Awesome. Lynn, it is very good to see you. Welcome back to the show. For those unfamiliar, can you give yourself an intro? So I happen to be here. I'm an analyst. I do most of my work on Linolden.com.

I recently published Broken Money, a book on the history of money and the current and future state of potential money, like directions that money can go in. I'm also a, you know, I work with ego death capital, which is Bitcoin-only venture fund, and I'm on the board of directors for Swan Bitcoin, so I have a bit of a connection with Stephen. I'm a little bit surprised to see that he's sitting right now, as far as I can tell. I've learned a lot from his sunlight and his walking expertise, and I want to give an extra shout-out to both Ben and Anita, because what I like to emphasize in my work is the harder aspects of Bitcoin. And so it's easy to sell Bitcoin to high-net-worth

individuals why they may want to protect themselves with say you know for example a non-dilutive currency and things like that but you know when ben goes out and you know just like with item after item after item shows people how to use various bitcoin hardware or software things that's a very important part of the ecosystem it's not necessarily the most profitable but it's very important and when anita goes to africa and shows people how to to use hardware wallets, brings hardware wallets to people, shows me how to use Bitcoin in the most sovereign way possible, and then focus on the education. I think those are among the most important things. And so those are the things that I try to do my best to support in either

my articles or my books. The same is true, for example, for Alex Galassian of the Human Rights Foundation. These types of work are not necessarily the get rich quick, most profitable angle that you're seeing in the broad crypto space. And the funny thing is, I recently saw Peter McCormack in his recent podcast. He had Nick Batia on in his Australia live event. And Nick shared the fact that he's running a class on Bitcoin over in California. And he found that more people in his class traded Shiba Inu then had a Bitcoin hardware device, which is alarming. Oh, my God. And so that's why the work of Ben and Anita is so important because both in California

and throughout Africa or wherever else, we're talking about that ladder is obviously the most important thing. And yet it's often the less profitable thing. So I'm really giving a big kudos to the work they do. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Very kind. Well, awesome.

I guess we're going to roll right into it. Again, I'll say everybody in the chat. Thank you for being here. I'm already getting comments on how horrible my posture is compared to Steve. But, yeah, Steve has excellent posture. I know everybody. Thank you for pointing it out. nonetheless, we're going to dive in.

So if anybody's joining us here in the audience that is unfamiliar with the show, very simple concept. This is called Why Are We Bullish? And each one of us comes with a reason for being bullish in and around Bitcoin. Now, this reason can take many forms. Whatever the person is currently excited about, it could be, you know, it could be a world event. It could be an app.

It could be, you know, a blog post or a new piece of technology. or really anything that is relevant or a personal experience even. So it takes whatever form. The flow of the show is, one, somebody drops a reason for being bullish. That's their chance to kind of rant and discuss what they're excited about. Number two, all together we're going to riff on it, comments, questions, whatever rabbit holes we want to go down. And then number three, finally, we're going to rotate to the next person until we've all had a turn.

So reason, riff, rotate, repeat. we're going to dive right in. I'm going to get us started off the bat here with my reason for being bullish. And it's, I'm going to focus in on one particular app and company, but I think it has broader implications than just what these guys have done and begun to roll out. So I'm going to pull up an article here from Bitcoin magazine. But this is about Nunchuk launching a collaborative Bitcoin custody platform. And so, you know, a lot of people are familiar with the idea of like a collaborative multi-sig where a company holds a key for you and then you hold the remainder of the keys.

And they're kind of like your signer of last resort. And of course, Nunchuk does this, Unchained does this, Kasa does this. There's a lot of ways to do it. And you can also create your own multi-sigs. And I guess I should take a little step back from that is anybody that doesn't know Multisig. Basically think a vault for your Bitcoin that requires multiple keys or multiple hardware devices to unlock.

Nunchuk has done something interesting with something that they're rolling out called Byzantine. And what they've turned their software into is kind of like a software as a service where you can kind of use their suite of tools, but you become an actual advisor to others that becomes the person that is holding the last resort keys. And so you can, as an individual, maybe as an educator or again, I guess their term advisor, you could have a bunch of people that you typically help through their Bitcoin setup and you can say, hey, we can do this thing where like I'm, you know, it's a level beyond just an Uncle Jim kind of level.

And so they're basically kind of renting out the tools, again, software as a service for advisors that want to create their own multi-sig or collaborative multi-sig businesses for clients that they advise. And so when I look at this, and again, to kind of flesh out what it is, well, you would use their software and you would say to, you know, maybe a client that you have and say, hey, okay, so I'm going to create a key and you're going to create a couple of keys with maybe tap signers or cold cards or any other host of hardware wallets that you like, whatever, whatever they prefer. And you'll be able to move money entirely without me. that's totally fine. But if anything happens, then you can come to me and I'll be the signer for you. And you can set all the policies of like after what thresholds do you require more proof that it's actually them, all those kinds of things you can set up in here. And there's also a built-in encrypted chat.

So you have direct communication with anybody that you're doing this type of thing with. I've got to believe here that this is making unchained and can't. CASA sweat a little bit. Because this kind of, in a way, it doesn't fully decentralized, but it partially decentralizes the idea of collaborative custody. It takes it from Nunshuck is the entity that holds all the keys and is a honeypot for the information of what those multi-six contain or unchained or CASA or whatever it may be.

and it splits it up to multiple advisors that would be the ones that are privy to that information only. And furthermore, the other thing that might be maybe making Unchained and Kassah kind of going, holy crap, maybe we need to pivot or think about our model a little bit more, is that Nunchuk also does this stuff without KYC because it's not required for them to know your information in order to hold a key with you as long as you have login credentials of some sort. Like basically they do it via email, but they do have a way that they're looking at implementing where your private key is actually the only identification you need or your public key.

And so I'm just kind of looking at this from the perspective of what is this going to spur on in terms of how we custody, how we secure, how we deal with on-chain Bitcoin entirely. And this isn't the only thing that's kind of popped up recently that I think is very interesting. It was Rob Hamilton with Anchor Watch. They just got a huge funding round. And I can't remember the name of the product that is basically in beta now or Alpha right now. But it's, again, it's in and around multi-sig.

But the level to which you can customize the multi-six setup is so, so granular using Mnisccript where you could say, I've got a vault and it requires X amount of keys, like M of N keys. You need two of three keys to unlock this vault. but if there's no transactions after X amount of blocks, you only require one key or whatever the threshold is. So you have like these degrading multisigs. You can have all of these intricate things you can do. So like you can very much customize it so that if something goes awry with the keys that are governing the multi-sig,

there's a fail-safe, you know, X number of blocks. down the road where, okay, you know, I misplaced two of the five keys, while now I'm only going to need, you know, one or two of them to unlock the money later. So there's a lot of stuff happening in terms of multi-sig and on-chain security, both from the company perspective, but also from the like actual on-chain technical perspective too. And I think we haven't really seen the implications of that and what it's means. And I don't think the world is even close to catching up to the idea that the technology here is infinitely safer than even what the laws are requiring of companies to do in kind of the legacy finance world. Like the laws are so slow to catch up with this kind of stuff. So yeah, anyways, I know that was kind of rambly and everything, but I'm just, I'm super interested in what's happening there. And I guess I'm just going to kind of open it up there to get your general thoughts on where you think we're going in and around, in and around custody, in and around how

individuals versus companies versus family member. Like where are we headed with with custody? What do you think? So I like to riff on that first actually because Nunjuck was my second choice for things I'm bullish on for this episode. which is a big compliment. And basically I put them in second place. But basically, I have been trying Nunchuk wallets for the past few weeks. And I've actually been using it so much that I found bugs that I passed to Hugo, not critical bugs, but just like UX improvements that they could do

and that they already have implemented. So that's how deep into the Nunchuck rabbit hole I have gone. And I truly think that basically, in order to help Bitcoin increasingly spread to the masses, it has to be easy to use, right? So the percentage of people that use cars and their mechanics is a very low percentage, right? So the majority of people that use cars only know like two or three things about the car. Like don't run out of gas, check your oil sometimes, you know, get it checked up once in a while. you can't be an expert on every aspect of the car. That's just unrealistic for most people, not every person, but most people.

And for Bitcoin to hit the masses, there needs to be easy ways to give them self-sovereignty or at least varying degrees of self-sovereignty and privacy without a lot of complexity. And so things like degrading multisig or things like easy multisig or things like the software wallet plus tap signer combination where you have like a $30 hardware wallet. You know, there's certain security tradeouts compared to like a full-on cold card with a passphrase and things like that. But at least the tap signer is like 95% of the way there for most types of security attacks for $30, which is important for the global South. So I'm a huge fan of what Nunchuck is doing. And also, I mean, totally separately from that in my recent book, Broken Money,

I referenced the founder of Nunchuk, Hugo, twice in the proof of work chapter because like five years ago on Medium, he wrote really detailed essays on proof of work or proof of sake, which are still valid here in 2023. So just from the overall quality of the founder and the quality of the product, I'm a big fan at the whole Nunjuck ecosystem and the various interactions they have. with say coin kite or other companies. So I think that whether it's Nunchuk or, you know, cash app and BitKee and what they're coming out with, I also think Swan has a strong pipeline ahead. I think any company that is bringing like, you know, kind of complex security to the masses in a way that is like hard to mess up

is really important. Like that, that's what makes people actually use Bitcoin. And so we can like beat Shiva-Inu in terms of, in terms of like the number of people that use Bitcoin hardware versus trade Shiba Enu on Coinbase. Like that, that ratio should be better. And I think that anything that makes that better is good. Yeah, 100%. And also in further praise of Hugo.

So during, again, during all the crazy stuff that happened at the beginning of 2022 with Canada, we were using a multi-sig with Nunchuk. And they were nothing but supportive in helping us kind of like figure that out. as we navigated it in a very kind of stressful environment. But furthermore, the Canadian government actually reached out to Nunchuk and basically said hand over all the information about people using their platform. And they wrote, they were like, we don't have it. Yeah.

And not only that, they wrote back, they said, we don't have it. We can't know it. This is by design. But they also told the Canadian government effectively to go fuck themselves. Because they said, they basically said like, we are we are here to serve people and we can't know this information blah blah blah and when the Canadian go when the Canadian dollar goes to zero we will be here to serve you to and and so like but this was like internally when they were speaking within the company of

like how are we going to what kind of company are we going to be they had a discussion around like, are we going to, are we going to do this? And they all internally, they knew that if they did this, there's a possibility, they might not exist later. And they just said, listen, we think it's important. This fits with our ethos. If anybody doesn't agree with this stance or as worried about this stance, that's okay. You can go, but this is what we're doing.

And I think they did have some people go. but they forge forward with it. So anyways, if we haven't given enough praise to Hugo and Nunchuk, then that's my extra little tip in there. But I'm going to open it up to Stephen Anita here, if either of you wants to jump in. Yeah, if I may, because I want to, yeah, start where Lynn basically was also starting from the Global South perspective.

Because I think it's so important to have an easy-to-use, reliable multi-sick setup, which up until now we didn't have. Because even I, and I'm a Bitcoin user since five years now or over five years, I have never set up a multi-sick myself because I was told by even people who much more about it than me that they failed. And so I never did it and I never recommended it. But in my workshops, for instance, with human rights activists in Zambia, I saw that two people who are the leaders of big NGOs,

big African human rights NGOs, they were coming up to me and saying, okay, now I understand that. Up until now, whenever we received funds from abroad, the government came, told us or said that we are a terrorist organization, and stole our funds. And now I understand this is not possible with Bitcoin. And also what we're doing there is showing them how it works,

how to set up a self-custody wallet, how to securely store the seat. But then this one lady said to me, you know, my organization is in five African countries. And I would like to receive funds in Bitcoin, but then I have to share it with my other organizations. because what we are doing now is we are sending cash in big suitcases into our countries because otherwise it's not possible to send money to other African countries. And that's why I'm so happy to hear this now about Nanchuk and that there are also other people and companies working on that because I think it's really a critical step in also onboarding organizations into Bitcoin.

And that was missing up until now. And I'm also glad to hear that you people know more about Nunchuk and also the people behind it. Because for me, that's also always critical if I trust a tool or not. And so I'm happy to hear that. And I will take a look more into Nunchak. Definitely, definitely do it. And in particular in that use case where you said five different countries, what they can do is they can set up actually just an email associated user.

And that's just simply used as a way to forge a connection with another person. There's a built-in encrypted chat. And so you can add contacts. And once you have, say, one person in each country, you can enter into an encrypted group chat together. And then basically add in your public key information. and then create a multi-sig from a far all together at the same time. And then anytime you want to send a transaction, it's a group chat message that anybody can tap on and sign.

Okay. So and basically I could set it up for them or you could from anywhere in the world. Yeah. And they don't need hardware for it. It can be because it's multi-sig, right? So you can you can just have a hot fee on your phone. And even if somebody got picked up, like the person still has nothing. But I on my side, I would have some hardware bullets, really, right? Like to protect the seat. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You could.

But any person can put forward any key they want. So it could be a tap signer, which is a low cost option. Or it could just be a hot wallet. And that key that's associated with it is part of a multi-sig. It's still quite secure from that perspective because they would have to obtain, you know, whatever the threshold of keys is to actually approve. transactions. Yeah, it's definitely a hundred times more secure than what we have now. Yeah, to their point, and basically you build, it's almost like Legos. You can build seeds, and then you can build wallets based on those seeds in like a multi-signature way, or you can build

single signature ones. And, you know, the complexity of multisig is that every party has to, you know, make sure they have the full config file of all the X-pubs, of all the different multi-sigs. that's one of the challenges of multisig. But Nunchuk makes it fairly easily. I think they kind of sit right on the edge of like cypherpunk and mainstream in the sense that they can be super anonymous. They're super cypherpunk, but they're also making it easy enough and cheap enough. And I think that's really valuable. So, you know, what what Ben pointed out is you can have free wallets, like mobile wallets,

which would be insecure in a signal signature set up but are fairly secure as part of a multi-signature. And then you can have things like tap signers or more hardcore, hardcore like, you know, like full on like hardware wallets where you get your own screen to validate the transaction. But the combination of those things results that are fully like, you know, kind of low cost, multi-signature, easy to set up private situation. And I, yeah, and I assume that everyone in that multi-sick has to have a nunchak wallet on their phone or on their desktop, right?

So I can't use another wallet. Yeah, I mean, technically speaking, you know, the the multi-sig wallet file could be exported and then put into something. Yeah. But you would then have to be aware of proposed transactions. And so Nunchuk just kind of packages that in a nice little app. But it is like I have Nunchuk multisigs that I've exported and put in Sparrow wallet or other interfaces. So it is possible. And that was part of my like deep testing when I broke stuff.

I was like, okay, how can I, I was like creating a wallet, a seed and then like deleting it and like see if I can recreate it and like porting it over to like block stream green and things like that. So basically with Nunchuk details, you can port it over to other things just as any good hard like Bitcoin hardware should do. It should be open and not rely on any one company. So Bick, uh, Nunchuk lets you set something up well like very simply. But then, you know, should Nunchuk fail or should otherwise, you know, it, an issue. There's ways to recover that in a more decentralized way. Yeah. And Vincent in the chat says, is it boomer proof? I would say like in the, I'm not detracting from boomers here, by the way. I would say in the in the grand scheme of things, especially if you go an easy route like using

tap signers, it becomes very boomer proof. It's it's a pretty easy flow, especially like an assisted multi-sig thing because then you've got you know like all of the assistance through it so yeah I would give it the boomer proof stamp of approval definitely I think so anyways it's it's some of the most boomer proof stuff that I've seen thus far

and again I'm not detracting from boomer I've got to say I've been super impressed with some of the boomers that have reached out to me and done one-on-ones damn some of them are like are like setting up their cold cards using multi-sig running nodes learning about coin like it's wild how much people have leveled up in the past few years and some of these people are like yeah i started a year ago and they're doing all these things i never imagine it but i work with these people

every day uh we have like you know the average demographic for private is obviously a bit older than the average bitcoiner, I'm always extremely impressed by, you know, just the technical competency and just like what these people have done. And I mean, I know people in their 60s and 70s that are running a business that have the business with their own cold storage, that they're, you know, taking excess cash flows and putting it into custody. They manage themselves. Like, it's, it's impressive. It's really very cool. And just real quick on what you shared, I think, I think what most jumps out for me about Nunchuk and what you just proposed is like two use cases. One is just for the average person who is orange-pelling people.

So for the average bitcoiner, you're talking to friends, you're talking to family, you're out in your community, being able to say, hey, I can manage a key for you to make this process easier in a very grassroots community trust network way. I think that's awesome. And I think that's something that will make it less daunting for new people who are unfamiliar with this, who the idea of, you know, putting all this, securing all their wealth themselves or some of their wealth themselves is daunting. And like the average person gets orange pilled from one other person. There is an individual in their life who introduces Bitcoin to them. And that is their first point of contact. And if that person can help them do an assisted multi-sig,

I think that's very cool. It might not be a fit for everybody, but it's very cool. And then the second use case that comes to mind is actually financial advisors and people who function as like RAs or financial advisors. There's obviously some regulation there that I'm not an expert on and without getting into those questions. But I feel like, you know, in the future, for so many people work with a financial advisor and being able to have that person secure a key for you or two keys or something, I think we'll make a certain demographic a lot more comfortable with the process of owning Bitcoin. And that's important because it's spot Bitcoin. And what is the alternative? If they can't do this, what will they do? They'll either buy an ETF or they won't buy it at all.

So I see like some sort of pipeline here where financial advisors hold keys in a multi-sig for private individuals as maybe an important step in like not having like paper bitcoinization and just like endless ETF ownership. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Awesome. Well, okay, so guys, I don't want to we got kind of way down a rabbit hole on that one. But I want to, yeah, it was it was a good chat. And I'm sure that Hugo will be excited when he wakes up and sees this. So nonetheless, I'm going to put a little bow on that one. We'll put it off to the side. We're going to do a rotation. Again, everybody in the chat, thank you for being here. Yellow seems to think that Lynn is in need of a Red Bull. So, pass the one. I've got, well, luckily, yellow brought one for you. So

you can grab it. No, he's not letting go of it. So nonetheless, we're going to do a rotation here. I'm going to toss it to Anita first and I'll cue you up with the question. Why are you bullish? I'm bullish because I visited or attended the Global Bitcoin Summit last week or two weeks ago

in Nashville, which was organized by the Human Rights Foundation, which is doing a phenomenal job in bringing Bitcoin education and also donations to developers with their grants. And I think a lot of the work, yeah, I

have been doing myself because I'm also a grantee and many other projects in that region would not be where they are if it wasn't for the Human Rights Foundation. And this event was really special and made me personally also bullish because, you know, traveling these countries and doing all that work that can be very lonely sometimes. And it was great to see other 99 or 100 Bitcoin educators and communities from, I think, 23 countries. 50, 56. 56.

Oh, Ben. Yes, Ben was also there. And we were able to present our projects, to learn from each other. And what I have seen is an incredible progress in these projects and communities in their educational work also. I was very impressed with a few, actually all the projects. But from the demos and the talks we had, especially things like Lake Guatemala, of course, Bitcoin Icazi, which I want to visit again at the end of the year. And many more.

Also, a lot of online educational projects, Mi Prima Bitcoin. Then the project from Tulsa, how is it called? She's doing developer education in Spanish. So it's really impressive. I mean, in the big, big, big, big, big, a few, we are still only a few people. But imagine these hundred people and their communities in their countries. If each of us is only influencing like a hundred people

and those are influencing the next hundred, I mean, this is like a snowball. It will only grow. Because I always say, if one person, experiences how life-changing Bitcoin can be for them, they will tell it and share the story to their friends and their family. And that's basically unstoppable. That's the other unstoppable thing about Bitcoin. Not only its technology is unstoppable, it's also, I think, the positive sides it can bring. And so that was really a very bullish moment for me. And a great place to be to learn from my peers.

Yeah. I like what you're saying there in and around the, I guess the effects of having everybody, again, basically extrapolating out how quickly things, how quickly this education can spread around. Because, I mean, we've already been talking about it. And I made reference to people that I deal with that, you know, in a very short period of time, they've learned so much. And the reason I say that is because it took me a long time to figure out what the hell I was doing.

And I'm thinking like, man, you learned all of that so much faster than I did. And how, like, how is that possible? But I think it's because of the efforts of the people that came before in educating newcomers were available. and somebody was rather than starting from scratch, able to look at something and say, okay, I get it now, and now I can go out and teach more people and iterate upon the resources that I had to make them better.

Like, you know, I never would have imagined back in 2015 having bookshelves full of Bitcoin-related content. I never would have imagined the sheer number of books, articles, podcast. I can remember there being like a podcast or two that would happen once a week and I'd just be dying, waiting to get that little tiny piece of Bitcoin content once or twice a week. And now it's like every single day, it's like, oh, 24, seven spaces and and just, I could, I could put podcasts on and press play and I would run out of, life before I ran out of podcasts.

It's just so much content. But it compounds and it extrapolates out. And I think that's why we're seeing people able to level up so quickly. And I think it's going to get faster. Yeah. I mean, what's missing is definitely languages, right? I mean, we have loads of information in English, but much less in all the other languages. I mean, Spanish, I think, is also very.

Good, a lot of content there, but other than that, yeah, yeah, 100% But I'm bullish nonetheless. Yeah, yeah, Steve, what are your thoughts here? Like, how are we doing? Yeah, a couple things came to mind. Just real quick on what you said. I mean, I think about this all the time of like, it's insane how far we've come since like 2017, you know, I mean, it's just like it's a different universe.

It's a different world. And like, you know, we all, you know, you live life from the first person perspective day by day, moment by moment. And so like the pace of change, I think, can feel maybe be obscured a little bit when you're just seeing it. Well, did anything happen yesterday? Did anything happen today? Today, today, today. But you look back over these swaths of time. And it's, it's mind boggling to me, the difference between now and five, six years ago.

ago on so many levels. So just a quick comment on what you said with that. I think about that all the time. And then on Anita's point, it's, I mean, I think it's just so crucial that this education and resources and also startups that are targeting just the non-English speaking rest of the world, just, you know, outside of U.S. and Europe, Canada. It's so critical because you know actually like we talk about institutional adoption a lot in the community like that gets passed around and you know actually it's kind of one of my fears to be honest i know we're on why are we bullish so i'll keep this short but one of my fears is actually that like institutional adoption happens too quickly in the u.s and u.s financial like ownership of bitcoin becomes disproportionate

like by a huge margin relative to the rest of the world. Like if Fidelity and BlackRock and Vanguard and, you know, these sort of firms, you know, wake up suddenly one day and decide to start building into Bitcoin positions really quickly, like it, I mean, that really moves the needle a lot. And so I just think, you know, it is important that we are, you know, looking at the rest of the world and realizing like they're, you know, just empowering them with the tools and the education. so that everybody can get some Bitcoin before the price goes 20, 30, 40, 50x.

I mean, that seems like it matters to me. It's not that, you know, I think Bitcoin benefits the rest of the world regardless of like percentage of ownership just via the system that it is. And it's not diminishing that. But I mean, it still would be obviously a bit nicer if, you know, the aggregate global population could own some stats. Yeah, 100%. I'll toss it over to Lynn as well to get her thoughts.

So generally speaking, like, you know, that whole path of like the human rates angle or global empowerment, I think is a really important thing to focus on. And I've, you know, in broken money, I put Alex Gladyssin as like one of the most common people I reference like over and over again because the work is so valuable. And, you know, the idea of spreading that to not just like, you know, global developed markets, but global developing markets. think is super important. And the interesting thing is we see it kind of like spread around. So for example, it's very popular in the U.S. It's popular in China, but it's very disparate from market to market. So for example, it's very popular in Argentina. It's very popular in Nigeria. But for example, it's not popular at all in Egypt, right? And there's many other countries where it's not popular at all at, whether for language reasons or cultural reasons, it's just not something that's

spread there so far. And so from country to country to country, there's various opportunities to spread that idea. And in the Western sphere, I've generally found that, you know, obviously libertarian or cypherpunk or more right-leaning people have generally embraced Bitcoin a little bit quicker than people more on the left side of the political spectrum in the Western kind of political sphere, whether U.S. or Europe. But one of the thing that reaches them very quickly, is, quickly is when you bring up like the Alex Gladstein angle or the human rights angle of people in various authoritarian countries, including, for example, women in Afghanistan back in 2013, or, you know, people struggling for human rights in Nigeria in recent years or Vladimir Putin's

opposition in Russia in recent years. For example, when these groups are finding themselves cut off financially and they're using Bitcoin as a tool to attract capital and to spend capital and to build a custodied their own capital, that actually speaks to people on the Western left in a way that other descriptions of Bitcoin haven't necessarily reached yet. And I think that's still low hanging fruit to keep going after hard because it's something that as it becomes more widespread and understood, that's dramatically powerful in a bipartisan sense. Basically, it's one of those things that if you're in a free country, it's like obvious when you

know it. And if you're an authoritarian country, you want it unless you're the one running the authoritarian country, right? So it's like any person that's in favor of capital moving from authoritarian countries to you know, democracies or other kind of free market economies should support that kind of narrative. And I think that's really easy to market. Yeah. I've got a follow up question then on that line of thinking, Lynn.

So you mentioned early on about, you know, a lot of kind of right-leaning individuals tended to gravitate towards Bitcoin first. Do you think that's merely a symptom of just kind of the times that were in, in that those that, at least in a Western sense, like I'm talking, you know, America, Canada, you know, Europe, Western Europe. Do you think that's more of a symptom of the political leanings or the people that kind of have the upper hand, things have been, you know, more progressive in the past number of years

And so those that are more likely to experience de-platforming happen to be on the right at this period in time. And so then there's this, you know, recognition of, oh, hey, censorship-resistant money could be useful in this instance. And would that be inverse if Bitcoin had come about in a different time, say the civil rights movement? I think it's possible that in the, you know, kind of the Western world within the lifetime of Bitcoin, those that are more on the conservative spectrum have been able to appreciate that aspect of Bitcoin a little bit more. Whereas if you were in the authoritarian parts of the world, things that would generally appeal to the Western left, things like LGBT rights or things like freedom of speech, like just utterly basic things, like being able to survive. as who you are, that's the type of demographic that the Human Rights Foundation goes after,

for example, in those countries. Yeah. Or just being a woman in a male-dominated environment. I think that when marketing Bitcoin, if you can sell the idea that you'd have to imagine, like, your political enemies have control of your country. Do you want money to be decentralized or do you want it to be fully centralized? And that, you know, I think that's a strong selling point. Yeah. I think like what you just said kind of, I guess points to the answer is who in whatever region you're in,

whoever the disenfranchised person is is going to recognize that a global censorship resistant money is valuable. And it's all it takes is that that political pendulum to swing from one side of the other for each side of the political spectrum to understand that Bitcoin can be all. also beneficial for them. I think it's also because like one of my views is actually that like these designations of right and left are not true across time. Like they basically don't exist across time. And so like the like specifically the ideological contents. So like whatever the like professed values of either camp are today, they surely weren't 60 years

ago. And they surely weren't six. And they might have like swapped back and forth multiple times. across that time horizon. And so I think it's, yeah, it's kind of to your point. It's really just more like who's in power and who's disenfranchised. Like the disenfranchised is always going to kind of, you know, maybe intuit the appeal of, you know, a politically resistant money first.

Yeah. Yeah. I, if I may add something from my European perspective and my personal experiences with friends and whatever, people who tend to be progressive left in our region, they dislike money in a way. So it's okay to have enough, but it's a little bit like as soon as you have loads of money, you've done something wrong. So maybe from that perspective, also people are not so much interested in Bitcoin. And it's also the storytelling and the appearance.

of that Bitcoin in northern countries is a store of value. It's a tool for speculation. It's an investment. And most people, I'm the same, you know, I'm not interested in investing. I'm interested in saving and using money as a tool. And I think that's the, these are the thoughts where many people who are left-leaning are coming from and therefore they are not interested in Bitcoin. And I can, of course, I also had these stories where people said to me, a young woman once said to me,

you're the first one who is telling me Bitcoin has another use case than speculation, this human rights aspect. I didn't even know about that. And my friends, my boyfriend and the other guys, they are totally into trading Bitcoin and crypto, and I'm really put off by that. I find it's disgusting. But now that I've heard that from you, I have a different perspective. And I think that's one of the reasons why the left is not so into Bitcoin yet. Yeah.

Yeah, it's very interesting. And again, I think I think the human rights foundation work in particular, you're right. It speaks to that segment of the population. And it's a very easy. sell when you're you're coming at it from that angle basically you kind of need to know who you're speaking with in order to peak their interest and and yeah it's it's funny that you say you know money is is you know there's a perspective that money is bad or having a lot of money is bad and I think that's just inherent in how how a lot of very rich people obtain money in our current system

because it's not through creating value for others in a lot of cases. It's from extracting value from others. Yeah. So I don't know. We'll leave it there, I guess. I'm really glad that you brought up Human Rights Foundation and that event. It was so wonderful. And the people there were top quality.

It was a wonderful few days. And yeah, it was yesterday or the day before. that that c.K who just joined the human rights foundation so claps for him on his new position but they announced the newest round of grants and I was very very humbled to have been a part of that round of grants so the age of yeah so I was very grateful for that so I'm you know I'm gonna be I got a I I'm obliged to make sure it goes to good use and so I'm going to, I got some work to do, I suppose. So yeah, nonetheless, thank you. I saw somebody

mentioned it in the chat. So yeah, anyways, that, that'll be up next, I suppose. But with that, I think we're going to do another rotation. Anita, thank you for that topic. And I'm going to toss it over to Steve next. And again, I'm going to cue you up with the question. Why are you bullish? So I'm actually, I'm really bullish because of Bitcoiners. And the longer I'm in the space, the more one of the things that strikes me as the most surprising and impactful is this network of people that Bitcoin has attracted around itself. Just the sheer, it's not just that like there's a lot of very smart people working on Bitcoin, although that's true. There are a lot of very intelligent people, but the world is full of,

there's many intelligent people in the world, but not all intelligent people can really think for themselves. Not all intelligent people can truly question the data set they've been fed, right? It's almost, I don't know if I have any Dune fans in the audience, but the concept of a MENTAT in Dune is like a human calculator. But if you feed them the wrong data, they come out with the wrong conclusions. And I think a lot of intelligent people in the world are somewhat like that. And so it's intelligence, but there's another trait, which is kind of the ability to stand in your own two shoes. And you're going to think for yourself, maybe you come to the right conclusion, maybe you

come to the wrong conclusion. But I see that like Bitcoin has been so successful in creating this just tremendous network of people around it. And I was thinking, like maybe a way to illustrate this is if I had to give like a young person starting out in their career, a piece of advice that isn't just true today, but will be true across all time, which will always be true. Now, that's a high bar. But if I was going to attempt to do it, I would say that you should look for an idea, a movement, a technology, or a group, which just attracts brilliant creative people, no matter what that idea, movement group,

technology is. And even if that whether that thing succeeds or fails, that that community network is going to be infinitely valuable. And so I look at this like network of people that has congregated around Bitcoin, that Bitcoin's been this shelling point for these certain sorts of thinkers. And I've I've increasingly found that like embedded in Bitcoin in the Bitcoin community is almost uh is there's this embedded like almost cultural revolution there's almost like a cultural element to it and that bitcoiners as a group you know we've all heard the phrase fix the money fix the world well embedded within that is the kind of what is desired is the fixing of the world the money is a tool to fix the world what people want is not the money in of itself it's social and cultural

It is actually a revitalization of culture. And so I see this thread running through the Bitcoin community of almost cultural critique. And it doesn't just show up in this kind of economic or social terms, but I've found that Bitcoiners, by and large, are interested in all sorts of things. I've always considered myself a generalist. And I really respect and value generalists. And I think we live in an increasingly hyper-specialized world. And I've taken such tremendous joy and gratitude interacting with Bitcoiners across such a diverse array of interests.

It's been phenomenal. And I just couldn't be more bullish on a group of people. Like it's when I ask myself, what is the thing I'm most grateful for? Like what am I most grateful for from my time in Bitcoin? The answer is the people, hands down. And so I'm bullish on Bitcoiners. I love that. It's always good to be bullish on Bitcoiners.

I think I like what you said about there's kind of this this budding culture in and around Bitcoin going into other areas. Because I mean, I think a lot of Bitcoiners are very passionate, thoughtful people. And some, you know, obviously all Bitcoiners had some level of expertise in something else, before they came to Bitcoin. So if the passion and the, I guess, attention to detail and creating value and a lot of the key tenants of Bitcoin also prior drove that person's life. And then those values brought them to Bitcoin, then there can also be a lot of things to learn from their previous areas of expertise.

And so you get a lot of interesting people. I'm actually particularly interested in the realm of art, like Bitcoin art. I think there's a lot of interesting things that are beginning to pop up there. And also, I really like the Bitcoin commentary around the implications of Fiat Society and architecture. And there's a lot of that as I was traveling Europe this past. summer and you you compare some of the the new bits of architecture versus some of these magnificent historical buildings and you know you're comparing a time where people would sometimes begin projects that they knew they would never see to completion in their lifetimes but were

meant for generations in the future and now we're building we're building easily dismantled pieces of architecture by borrowing money from future generations instead. So we're getting like this exact inverse in a lot of society. So yeah, it's very interesting. And it's this, you bring up this idea that comes to the surface from that is like it's a question of like what values does our society hold? Like what values are close to our hearts? And what do we and how do we embody those values. And it's like those questions, like I see Bitcoiners asking those questions. And it's not to say that like everyone agrees. In fact, people don't agree. You query the Bitcoin community. You'll find people that heavily disagree on what sort of values are desirable in a society. But that's good

because it's really the act of inquiry, which is the vitalizing thing. It's really the act of inquiry, which I feel like has the potential to restore, to restore culture, to restore trajectories. And I think just when I look at a group of people that's just really asking these questions, that's really just looking at the world today. And while people may disagree on what the problems are or where the problems came from, something clearly isn't working. Something clearly is not functioning appropriately. And so that process of inquiry into like,

not just like what are the systems, what are the infrastructure, how should the money change, but what values do we need to hold, which we do not currently hold or do not currently embody? Because, you know, from the perspective of one individual, the statement, fix the money, fix the world might appear to be true. It might appear to be that, you know, you or I could just kind of sit here, the monetary system change and almost if by magic, the culture and the social norms and everything changes. But that would that's still, but if everybody does that, if everybody just sits idly by, I don't think that does happen because you still need someone somewhere, some group that is actually asking those questions, that is actually engaging with a dream of like what does society look like? What value should we hold? How should we navigate this? And so I just see that process of inquiry is just, um, It's important.

Yeah. I'm going to toss it over to Anita and Lynn here. I just, because we kind of got on the topic of kind of low time preference in everything that people create, and I mentioned artists, I'm just, I wanted to take a second to give a shout out to three of my favorite Bitcoin artists. One being fractal and crypt,

amazing stuff. He's the one who did the amazing dial that, that sailor bought that was all done in wood but he's got amazing work obviously crypto graffiti always does awesome awesome stuff uh and i love the dude and he's he's so nice um and then made x is doing some really unique stuff so those those are my three bitcoin art shills that i wanted to throw in there but um uh well i'll toss it over to lynn first and then to anita real quick yeah let me just shout out a yellow drop something in the chat um saying step then Bitcoin companies also have a responsibility around what kind of content,

thus enrichment of that Bitcoin culture, are pushing to the space. For example, I had enough of everything being macro. Not everyone can do macro. Let the experts, Lynn, booth, etc. Bitcoin is so much more, just something to think about. Yellow, I couldn't agree with you more. And like I recently, Ben references at the beginning of the show, I recently started a walking podcast.

It's not just a walking podcast, and this isn't a shill. it's it's actually the spirit of the podcast is getting to know well-known bitcoiners outside of Bitcoin. What else are you interested in? Who else are you? And it's because I had the same experience that like I could not bring myself to do another macro podcast. There are people that could do it far better than me like Lynn and others. And I just think the community does deserve it's richer. It's broader than that. So I just wanted to shout that out. Totally agree with you. Love it. Awesome. I'm glad I'm glad you, I'm glad you, I, didn't see it go by because I was busy pulling up all the artists. So anyways, I'm going to

toss it over to Lynn to get your thoughts on everything being discussed. So I'll jump in and agree. Basically, it's funny because I'm a big fan of like Art Deco architecture. But the funny thing is like some of those really hardcore, hardcore like architecture people even think that's like a shit coin. Like you have to go pre-World War I to get the true like good architecture. But I think it's funny because it kind of comes in spectrums. I, I would like to see better architecture. And I do think a lot of this is tied to the time preference of money and the availability of, like, you know, constantly shorting fee at credit. And in my book, Broken Money, one of the things I cover is how different monetary systems inherently incentivize different types of behaviors.

And if you're in an environment where the unit of account is constantly debasing, you're enticed to short that and then, you know, build whatever. based whatever you can short the currency build anything that's slightly more scarce than the currency which is not a high bar and i think that has detracting efforts on on the overall society and as an example i mean i've unfortunately known people who if you take them and you put them in a developed country and they're in like a nice area or even in a in a nice area in a developing country they're not going to litter right they're not going to throw trash out. But if you put the same, literally the same person, and I've seen this happen, in a shitty area or in just like a, you know, what is what used to be a high end area in a developing country,

but has for whatever reason encountered various just like political issues and geopolitical issues of money issues, it's just not as good as it used to be. People will throw trash out on the street. And it's kind of that broken window philosophy. But it's, it's it you know the fact that i i live in different countries for every part of the year lets me see things in kind of different perspectives and that's like a really real phenomenon that people do that if you respect the area that you live in if you feel culturally associated with it and if you feel that your leaders are trying hard to build in a like a system that supports you and if you feel like you're in tune with with your neighbors like you're you're all in this

together and it's a beautiful place, you want to support it. Whereas if you feel like it's corrupt, it's, you know, you don't, you don't resonate with your neighbors. It's all going to hell. It's degrading in various ways. You're like, I'll just throw the McDonald's package on the street because it's all trash. There's really trash there anyway. So like, what am I adding to it? Right. And so that's like, it's like order and virtue have like a cycle that creates more virtue and order, whereas chaos and bad things have a cycle that creates more chaos and bad things. And it can be very hard, but possible, but very hard to shift that back towards the good things. And it's unfortunately very momentum based.

Yeah, I love that. It's, uh, I think that's spot on. And it's like when people can feel enfranchised and proud. and connected and part of their culture, their civilization, their society. That just has like, it's like a flywheel effect. Like you said, it just, it is a virtuous spiral where you get better communities. You get people that feel differently about life. Philosophies change, systems change.

And that kind of cultural layer, which I agree, like money implicates heavily in, it's just so near to us. It's so near to our direct experience. And you know, I wouldn't mind you tagging in here as well, hearing your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, I agree with the general thing to say that time preference, of course, changes how you build stuff. But this, Lynn also mentioned it, this favorism of architecture that was built pre-World War I. We should not forget this was at the time when we still had a kingdom. and basically, yeah, an empire in Austria, for instance,

or all over Europe. So the price for these buildings were lives, the lives of people, the lives of the common people who were not in some sort of king, like a princess family or whatever. You know, you get what I want to say. So I'm a little bit critical about this comparison. And then I also want to drop a name of a Bitcoin artist I recently found. It's Coda List.

And this guy is making basically nice art for your home. Let's say it like that with a focus on cypherpunkism and Bitcoin and Lightning also. What's the name? Coda List. That's K-O-D-A-List.com. Yeah, and then also with our shared values. I think, yes, we share a lot of values around Bitcoin, around uncensurable money, around 21 million and things like that. But other than that, we are very diverse, I think.

I do not share many of the few other bitcoins might share. Like, for instance, you need to be a carnivore to be a real bitconer, or the great, thing about Bitcoin is Bitcoin builds families to last and the natural families, of course, a man and a woman and children with rainbow flags. That's the doomsday scenario where we're going into in a fiat world. So I highly disagree with these pictures of Bitcoin or the fiat world. But I also agree that it's fantastic what Bitcoiners have been doing in the recent years, because I mean, we know there has no marketing department, there is no unified voice behind us, but we all spread the same message in a way that money can be a tool for freedom. And that's why I'm so happy that we

are so many already. And for me personally, I now have friends worldwide, and which makes it great to be a digital nomad because I can visit a lot of communities and always feel safe because I have bitcoins there who I can rely upon and that's great too. Bitcoin is one of the unique communities where you can you can shuffle into any any city on the planet and as long as you can get a message out there, hey, I'm curious where the bitcoins are you're going to have somebody that you'll be able to relate to and very quickly become friends with and have great discussions with in a short period of time. You always have somebody to sit down and talk with no matter where you are anyone in the globe, which is, I think that's a pretty

unique thing to be able to say, to walk in and say, hey, where are the bitcoinsers and you've got somebody to hang out with any time. I wanted to like quickly add to what Anita said, basically like if you don't feel like you fit in with Bitcoin Twitter, like you're not alone. Like that's the like the tip of the iceberg above the water. And like there's this big broader diversified group of people below the surface. There's people in China that are just not even on Twitter. There's people in other countries who are not even on Twitter.

There's, you know, if look at the developers, they're probably more likely to be vegan than carnivore. you know it's funny i was talking to elizabeth sark like years ago and she's like everybody in bitcoin has an extreme diet it just all differs like there's like some of them were carnivore some of they were vegan everything between everyone has a particular thing but it's like you know it's like black and white right so it's it's a much broader space than what you see in just the western podcast circuit bitcoin twitter experience and i think that's important to realize that if you Bitcoin, if you like transparent money, if you like self-custodial money, if you like

censorship resistance, and you're not like a carnivore, you know, like male, female family, like, you know, proponent, like there's still a space for you in the whole ecosystem because that's that's one voice among many different voices. And the whole point of Bitcoin is that it's open source money and that it's permissionless to use and that it empowers anybody in any part of the world that wants to use it. Yeah. And that was actually my point with, like, I don't think people agree on the cultural conclusions.

So there's not consensus of any kind. I think actually people disagree heavily. But it's that it's the inquiry. Like even those two people, the carnivore and the vegan, well, they've each got their own idea about kind of a radical revision of the status quo. And, you know, time will tell. you know, what those outcomes look like. But it's, it's, it's the process of inquiry. It's the process of asking questions of being willing to experiment, being willing to go back to the drawing board

of diet and lifestyle and family and whatever it is. Like I, I find that very alive. I find that very alive. Yeah. I will say I, when I have a steak, I often also have a salad. And I was also very alive. very excited about the new Insink song today. So there's all flavors of us out there. So we'll leave that there. Awesome. Okay. I think we're ready for our final rotation.

So I'm going to toss it right back to Lynn here. And again, Lynn, I'm going to cue you up with the question. Why are you bullish? Take it away. So before I get to that, I'll say, I like both steak and LGBT rights. So I'm all over the place in terms of the Bitcoin cultural ecosystem. I like all the things. I like all the different communities.

And as I mentioned in the beginning of the show, Nunchuk was my second choice. But I think I have to really double-click my first choice, which is the importance of the unit of account that we take as money. So I just spent six weeks in Egypt. I go to Egypt every single year. You know, my husband's originally from Egypt. And so as a family, we spend part of the year in the United States,

part of the year in Egypt every year. And, you know, the funny thing is that my family is small, his family is very big. So our friend's center and our family center is actually centered in Egypt, even as our economic center is centered in the United States. And so Egypt is very important to us. And that gives me somewhat of a perspective because in the developed world, we have, say, on average, 7% broad money supply growth that obviously was accelerated during COVID. it, but on average, multi-decade average, 7% annual broad money supply growth and the various

implications that come with that. Whereas when you go to the developed world, you have much higher average rates of broad money supply growth. So, for example, in the Fiat standard book, they cited 14% weighted average broad money supply growth among developed and developing countries, which means developing countries on average are going to be on the higher end of that. So generally double digits. In Egypt, in recent years over the past decade.

it's been about 20% per year. So imagine that your unit of account is increasing in supply by 20% per year almost every single year. And you're in the position of a wage earner or a small business person trying to establish pricing for your various products. That's obviously a very hard environment to operate in. So I think that the majority of Bitcoin narratives or inflation narratives are based around the idea, of that your savings are being devalued. So as the supply increases, your liquid savings are devalued. But I think in many ways, a equal or bigger problem is that the contracts and the wages

of people are constantly being devalued. So when Egypt, for example, back in 2016 and again in 2022, at the behest of the IMF, which Alex Gladstein goes into greatly in his work, when they force Egypt to devalue their currency relative to the dollar by half. Any Egyptian that does not get a 100% raise in that environment is now earning fewer dollar equivalents on an ongoing basis indefinitely compared to what they used to earn. And so not only were their liquid savings devalued. So it's not like you can just say, okay, you can put your money in real estate or Egyptian equities,

which are not that great. or if you find a way to put your value into American equities and hold your value, the fact that your ongoing income is still devalued is really powerful. And if you survey people and say, hey, are you getting a 20% raise every year? Are you getting a, did you get a 100% raise the fact that you were devalued by 50%? The answer is, you know, 99% going to be no. And to some extent, the same thing happens in developed countries just at a less extreme scale. And so, for example, if CPI averages 2.5 or 3% per year over the long run, you know, the realistic basket of things you want to buy that are not like fully, you know, degraded by technology and things like that.

So, for example, housing, health care, nutritious, like dense food, things like that is probably increasing at 4 or 5% per year. if you're not getting that wage increase plus whatever your realistic seniority, higher productivity bonus is, you're being diluted constantly. So the anchoring bias or the burden of proof is always against the person trying to keep up with inflation rather than the status quo, which is the employer or those that have the longer term contract. And I think that's a greatly underestimated thing globally is when the unit of account is constantly working against you. And of course, this only works in the current technology mix of that there's 160 different fiat currencies, more or less.

The number changes every year because some of them fail. But basically, and you have, you know, 10 or 20 currencies that are relatively serious in terms of the fact that they degrade slowly over time and they have something to give global acceptance. And then you have over 100, you know, fiat currencies that are either pegged to the dollar and have no foreign acceptance and pegs can break or they're totally free floating and they're constantly inflating at a faster rate. And the most damning thing is that if you look at the past 50 years under this current monetary system, the number of countries that have gone from developing to developed, you can count on like one hand, right? So Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, maybe a couple others, mostly in Asia, those are the only countries that have gone from literally developing to developed. There's no countries in Latin America that went from developing developed. In fact, there's some that arguably went from developed to developing.

The same thing is true for Africa. We have none that went from developing to developed. And almost every single developed country today developed back under a hard money store. standard back under when gold was money. People were able to save money reliably and then deploy that capital. And in this current 50-year environment where development countries are reliant on the dollar, the United States can harden the currency whenever they want to. They can soften the currency whenever they want to. And your currency, it's almost like a vicious cycle because if you can issue debt in your own currency, your currency is inherently more stable. If you can't issue,

debt in your own currency and you have to take out foreign debt, your currency is less stable. And so fewer lenders want to lend in your currency. It's like a vicious cycle. There's almost other than very rare exceptions, it's hard to break out of that system. And that's the world we live in. And that's the global situation. And I find that both unjust. But I think that the more people realize the injustice of that situation and that realize

is it's not just the devaluation of your savings that matters, it's also the devaluation of your unit of account that matters. I think all of that points to the importance of Bitcoin and the things that Bitcoin can fix over the very long run. I think that the unfortunate thing is that in the intermediate term, the best that Bitcoin can fix is your own personal savings. You can't expect the unit of account is going to be fixed by Bitcoin. But in the long arc of time if you picture a Bitcoinized world the fact that

you know you get benefits from going on Bitcoin now but that you get greater benefits should the entire world become Bitcoin dominant you know that that's a whole other step up and I think that that's something that has to be it's still

pulled understood and it's best to share that and educate people on these kind of injustice dynamics that that exist in the current system. I'm curious to get Anita's thoughts here, because a lot of this, a prime example of a nation that can issue debt and versus not issue debt

in their own currency to the extreme, some of the exploitation that we see coming out of the Cepa zone. And some of the stuff that's happening there, you know, with the, if I'm not mistaken, if I'm not mistaken, there's a lot of unrest in that part of the world right now and around that too. I'm just curious, Anita, have you been any of those places where they're using the Sifa Frank? No, I've only been to Ghana for the Afro-Bitcoin conference and I spent some time there. So I cannot speak so much to this area.

I can speak more and underline Lynn's words about Zimbabwe. I've spent like eight months in total in Zimbabwe so far. And just to give people an example, what it really means when you have hundreds of percentage points of inflation, because we always hear like, oh, there's hyperinflation, yeah, but you can't imagine what it really means. And when I came first in 2020, in early 2019, the Zimbabwean government and the Reserve Bank issued the new Zimbabwean government. dollar another time they tried their own currency. At the same time, the US dollar is legal tender. So it's a multi-currency country.

You can also pay with South African runs there or with the, I don't know what the name is now from the currency, but the currency are from Botswana. So you can use those as medium of exchange too. And so in early 2019, they basically said from one day to the other, we are now issuing the new Zimbabwe dollar. And everyone in Zimbabwe who is holding a US dollar account on a Zimbabwean bank, no need to worry.

This is now Zimbabwean dollar. So if you had like $10,000 in your bank, it was from one day to the other Zimbabwean dollar. And there were even big banners on the streets that said, don't worry, the exchange rate will stay one to one. When I came to Zimbabwe in early 2020, the exchange rate was 1 to 28. The next time I came in 2023, no, I was earlier there, but anyhow, in April this year, it was 1 to 1,400. In May it was 1 to 4,000, and now it's 1 to 6,500.

And what does this mean? a leaf of bread that everyone needs and everyone is eating there, because I don't know, it's a staple diet in a way, everyone buys that. It had cost $1 in 2019, which is also one Zimbabwean dollar, who has been in 2019. And today, the same leaf of bread is costing $6,500 Zimbabwean dollar. And although people, of course, they want to use the U.S. dollar, because they know compared to their own currency, the US dollar is totally stable.

But they are not earning in US dollar. Most people only earn in Zimbabwe dollar. And it's totally true what Lynn is saying. Of course, the wages are not rising in that same amount. I mean, they are not rising at all for most people. And to be honest, I really don't know how people survive there. And that's also the reason why everything. is so rotten and broken down because I heard from a very source that I really trust that the way

it works is it's really the central bank is really printing money and then they are engaging so-called runners. These are people who are driving to the small towns and the small villages on the countryside and there they sell the worthless Zimbabwean dollar for the US dollars the people because the people need the Zimbabwean dollar to pay the school fees. So the elite, the people in power are really ripping off their people and their country. And there's also a great documentary called The Gold Mafia on YouTube. You only need to watch one episode and you really know what's going on there. And it's so sad.

And it's also the number of countries and people who are, And people who live in countries with authoritarian rulers or broken democracies is rising every year. So that's the sad thing. I mean, it's a reason to be bullish on Bitcoin, but at the same time, it's very, very sad. And so it's unimaginable what's going on. And the sad thing also in Zimbabwe is because of its dictatorship, you're really in danger if you use Bitcoin. I know now from three people, one person I personally know, and the other two where it was told.

Yesterday, someone told me that they have been abducted by police and we are questioned, where do you have that money from? Which is one reason why I believe that, for instance, in Zimbabwe, adoption will be very slow. I mean, there is adoption. I know a lot of people are using Bitcoin. more are using USDT because of the stable value. But it's in the country. But the liquidity is so low that the local traders, the peer-to-peer guys,

can actually ask for fees up to 20% per trade, which is also said. I want to double a quick click on that real quick. I mean, for example, Argentina has a history of confiscating dollars if you put them in bank accounts, similar to what Anita just described in terms of Zimbabwe, where they promised something and then that does not work out. And I know physicians or logistics experts in Egypt that literally hold physical cash dollars in their apartment as a form of savings. Like they, you know, they're here in 2023, and they've surveyed the landscape for various

monetary technologies, and they picked physical paper dollars as well. one as the key thing they want to hold for intermediate term value because that's the best thing available to them they don't want to put money in a local bank um Egypt has not embraced say stable coins or bitcoin in the way that Nigeria has yet so far they have gold as an option there's some degree of volatility and high price spreads there you know they can go into real estate which is a very popular among Egyptians where they'll buy you know first property second property third property, sometimes leave them empty. It's a type of malinvestment where you just buy property because you don't know,

you don't know else to do with it, but it's more scarce than the local currency. And when you see any environment where you see a physician stacking dollar bills in their apartment with no interest that they're earning, that shows that something's not going well. And in Egypt and other countries, even in terms of the local currency, you know, part of it you can say is mitigated by high interest rates. So if you're a wealthy Egyptian, you can put money in the bank and hold, you can get fairly high interest rates. So even though the Egyptian pounds devaluing, you're getting more Egyptian pounds in the process. But in those types of countries, banking access tends to be pretty low.

So not near the majority of people have banking access. And so on average, lower class, lower income people are unlikely to have a bank account. It's just not the overhead doesn't make sense for their fairly small amount of. value that they have. And so they're storing value in things like Egyptian pounds that are devaluing at 20% per year or Zimbabwe currency that's devaluing even faster. And that's something that I think that a lot of people in the West don't realize. And then when they say, why does Bitcoin have value? Who would buy Bitcoin? It serves no purpose. There's no purpose for this. Fia currency is sufficient. It's like, well, imagine yourself as a working class person, you know,

roughly one of any one or two billion people in the world that live in these developing countries that has trouble at getting a bank account or even if you can get a bank account, it's not sufficient, and you're just getting constantly diluted, right? So I think that part of this, what makes me bullish or what incentivizes me to make this more bullish is to make that easier for them to access. Yeah. There's a quick question for Anita actually in the audience here. Rusty was asking, does Zimbabwe also get deflationary?

spikes from time to time where if you're holding US dollars you actually might be in trouble or is it basically just more or less off the rails it's it's more or less up only you have phases in between where it's stagnating on a level but basically it's up only because um yeah the people want to enrich themselves and um there's all all trust is gone i mean all trust is gone in the government uh recently there were elections and um i mean uh the old president is the new president, but there are, of course, also allegations of manipulating the results. But on the other hand, they don't even have to manipulate the results, I believe, because there's really voter intimidation going on, you know, on the one hand.

People in the rural areas and also in the cities, the poor people, they get seeds and oils and things that they can use from the governing party, from the people. big party. So and also when you go to vote, they have their guys outside of the election booth basically telling you, yeah, what you know what you need to vote for. So this is not a democracy. This is it like dictatorship. And there it's even more dangerous and complicated to exit into Bitcoin also. Steve, I'm just wondering if you want to chime in on anything here. Yeah, I think two things came to mind listening to you guys talk. I think the first, well, one thing, I'm actually quite bullish on actually physical Bitcoin notes for some of these reasons.

There's a company that's coming out to Pacific Bitcoin noteworthy that has, I think, had some key innovations on like how to actually produce these in a verifiable way that's secure. but where it's just literally paper money, but it's Bitcoin. And people can effectively spend it and trade it without actually moving the coins on chain. There's a secure element, basically, that you have to destroy it to get the key. Whether, you know, I don't want to get into like the specifics of the model, but that concept of actually a physical, completely off-chain key currency, I actually, I really like for some of these areas where there are some of these like privacy concerns. There are some of these, you know, areas where, you know, internet connectivity is more of a challenge or various other reasons.

So that's a, that's a small point. But I've liked that idea since 2017. And then the other is that, Lynn, I loved the point you made. And I think it doesn't get made enough of like salary debasement as opposed to savings debasement. because we're all locked into these long-term year-to-year agreements on what we get paid. And I think most people, even in the U.S., like, especially if you adjust CPI for like what you did, like, okay, like take out the deflationary stuff and like let's just look at, you know, your rent and your food and your medical bills.

And like, like I really question that there's very many people at all that are getting that sort of raise every year. then, you know, that leads one into, like, there's this phenomena in recent society in U.S. of like people don't stay with companies anymore, which I think is rational for the individual. They'll job hop to get an increase in pay. They'll be with a company for a year or two, and then they'll just leave and go get a more senior role at another company. And, you know, it's different than like early America where it was expected people would stay with a company for a long period of time. The companies would take care of them and they'd grow

together. But I almost wonder the thought occurred to me while you were talking. And I haven't thought this through before, so it might be totally wrong. But of like that sort of like salaries, if you stay in one spot and don't have like a real jump and roll, not actually even keeping pace with inflation. People intuit this, maybe unconsciously and are like constantly jumping to different companies, which I think is also like uniquely harmful on the notion of like institutional knowledge. That it actually impairs the accumulation of institutional knowledge and that like people because it's not just like a it's not just like a data set or like anybody with an MBA can come in and do an equivalent job. Like, you know, people learn embedded implicit knowledge functioning

in organizations. And if everyone's leaving after two years, That's just bad for the whole system. So, curious your thoughts. So I agree with that. That's something I've referenced before, which is when you look at employee turnover, generally speaking, people try to get wages increased by a reasonable amount in their companies. And when they're unable to, largely due to anchoring bias. So, for example, it's hard to convince an employer that you should get a 6% increase

and say, well, the basket of non-deflationary goods went up by 4% and also my seniority. and productivity benefit is 2%, therefore I earn 6% more now. That's hard to get. But it's easier to get when they look to another employer and they say, look, here's my experience, here's my full resume, I'm looking for a new job, I'm super excited to join. They end up getting that wage increase. Maybe they get 7%, but then they have to deal with moving frictions and retraining and things

like that. So that's all deleterious for productivity. And so I think that's a valid point. And to the prior question I went to Anita, I'll double click on that for Egypt, which is that, you know, is it up only or there are periods of deflation? So for people that deal with like street market currencies and things like that, there's generally a risk of dealing with kind of off-balance sheet interactions that they have to take on. If they take on that risk, it's mostly up only in terms of dollar versus Egyptian pound or in the sense that you could. could go down by five or 10% in like periods where the Egypt is very trying to solidify the peg. So you're risking five to 10% of the downside, but you're gaining upwards of 100% on the upside.

And so it's mostly an upbole scenario. But the thing that makes it complicated is that if you are upper middle class and you have access to bank accounts and things like that, when you compare Egyptian pounds that are earning interest compared to dollars, it's a little bit of more of like a direct comparison where you can go multiple years where it's better to be holding Egyptian pounds earning, say, 15% interest. And then you get wrecked all at once, right? And so it's hard to make that sell to people in real time because like any market, there's complexities to it, volatility to it. And so with that interest contribution, it's not always up only. It's like you're losing, you're losing, you're losing. And then you win all at once. And then you win all at once.

then you're losing, you're losing, you're losing, you win all at once again. And that's the hard part of any market. That's also why Americans don't invest in the stock market. Like if you have a working class person, but like I don't trust the stock market. I'm holding my savings because that volatility wrecks them over periods of time. Yeah. Interesting. I just wanted to tag on to Steve's initial chat about physical.

You honed in on physical Bitcoin bills. Yeah. I just had a side note that I wanted to mention there. So the thing I find funny in a world where we had physical Bitcoin bills is, again, here's the $100 trillion Zimbabwean bill from 2008. And this is, you know, I think somebody in the chat actually said that they have one of these and they use this as a bookmark. because it was just devalued so much that like all all units lost all meaning. But I pulled up that company that you were talking about,

noteworthy. And here's a 0.005 Bitcoin bill with mezes on it. And I like the one Bitcoin has hell. But the funny thought to me would be in a Bitcoin that, in a world that rapidly adopted Bitcoin, we would be adding decimal like we'd be adding zero behind the decimal. we'd have we'd have millisats that were being denominated it'd be a rapid valuation of the currency instead of devaluation uh anyways i thought that was kind of neat um but i'm glad you brought up

that company kind of cool looking awesome um all right so guys i think this is probably a good time to kind of begin uh wrap and stuff up what i like to do at the end of every show is i like to do just a quick round of any final thought that you may have, anything you want to sum up. And also, if you happen to have one, a recommendation for people. And so when I say recommendation, it could really be anything, something that you've found valuable in your journey. So something, maybe there's a blog or a video or a book that you really valued. Maybe there's an app or a device that you've found particularly useful.

Or maybe there's just like a bit of life advice or a personal experience that you'd like to imbue upon people in their Bitcoin journey to kind of help them along. So I'll let you stew for a second and I'll try and buy you like a minute of time to figure out what you want to say. But I think, again, the conversation here in and around, to me, what kind of popped out the most was how many different types of people are being affected. by Bitcoin in different ways or how Bitcoin can affect so many people and so many different walks of life from all around the world. And we've talked all the way from people that are,

you know, very well off and their job is to protect and protect the purchasing power of a lot of capital. And those people are kind of honing in on Bitcoin and understanding that this can help. But there's also people on the other side of society, the other fringe, where they're the most disenfranchised, the most hurt by the monetary regimes that they're living under. And they're also very much recognizing or there are pockets of them that are very much recognizing the value of Bitcoin. So we kind of have either side of the spectrum latching on and understanding Bitcoin in a way. And I think it'll begin to work its way inwards to your everyday person as well over time. But the people that have the most to lose in terms of they're trying to protect

the most capital and the people that have nothing to lose because they've been devastated by fiat currency, both are in a unique position to perhaps understand the value of Bitcoin before others that are in a more comfortable position. So anyways, that was kind of my takeaway here. In terms of recommendation for me, I'm going to kind of jump. back to my earlier topic and say, if you haven't played with Nunchuk just as just as like a regular mobile wallet, check it out. Like you can just go download it on your phone and just play around and see what you can do there because you can just add hot wallets.

You can add cold wallets as well. You can construct multisigs, but you can also do collaborative multi-sigs from afar in an encrypted chat. There's all kinds of crazy things that they've put in there. And some of the advanced features that are kind of, you know, more behind the scenes. You have to look for them. It's kind of wild what they're doing with it. So again, I got to give hats off to Hugo and the whole Nunchuck team for what's being built there. And I recommend you check it out. I've got like 10 videos on Nunchuk and the various things that it does. So go go check him out. So that's where I'll leave it there. I'll then toss.

it to Anita to get any final thoughts and recommendations you may have. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, final thoughts. I found this was a very fruitful chat or conversation we had with each other. And where I said about the Global Bitcoin Summit, yes, I'm really bullish because I'm in the space now since early 2017. And as far as I can remember, there were a handful of people in Austria at least who were interested in Bitcoin. And what I've seen this summer when I spent some time in Austria, suddenly people who are asking me what I am I doing. And I tell him, I'm a Bitcoin educator. They say to me, oh, yeah, now, ah, I have heard this guy is using it now too because his bank account was closed. He's a comedian. And I don't know for which reason.

But now he's using Bitcoin to collect donations. So we have gone a long way. and I believe there is a lot to come. And my recommendation, actually, it's two recommendations. So the first recommendation, coming from the human rights perspective, I recommend everyone to watch or share my documentary that's on my YouTube list and also on Twitter, on my PIND on the profile. It's about how Bitcoin enforces human rights.

And the second recommendation I give is, please start earning. earning Bitcoin and spending Bitcoin because it's not only a tool for investment or saving to the future. It's also money and we can grow adoption. I believe if we all were to start using Bitcoin. I'm almost earning like I would say 95% of my earnings are in Bitcoin and it's fantastic to use and whenever you think you lose money because you're spending it now like the pizza guy, just buy it back or earn it back and you'll be good. Yeah, I love that. And yes, I just shared it on the screen for a second,

but go check out Anita's pinned tweet for that documentary. All of everybody's on the show, their Twitter profiles or their ex-prol. I can't you get used to it. Their ex-profiles are on the show. Twitter forever. Don't give in. Don't give in. I can't.

Yeah. Awesome. Steve, how about you? Final thoughts, recommendations. Well, you know what you just did, man. You know what's about to happen. So I recommend that you see the sun for at least 20 minutes immediately upon waking. Then throughout the day, as frequently as you can, get at least like a 10 minute sunbreak. walk at least 5,000 steps, or ideally 10,000 steps per day. Once the sun goes down, really red light only, but the yellower or orange, the more orange light you can do, the better for your circadian rhythm and sleep cycle. Upon waking, eat within 30 minutes. That's my life advice. I love that.

That's great. I got to, I was aware of. of some of those tidbits, but I think I need to actually act on a couple of those because sometimes I can slack a bit. Awesome. Thanks for that, Steve. And come to Pacific Bitcoin. Yes, yes. I'm very excited to get down there. It's going to be a lot of fun. Highly recommend. It was a blast last year. Lynn, I'm going to toss to you. Final thoughts, recommendations. So I guess as a basic shill, check out broken money in the book. It's very educational. But I think the more substantive thing,

I'll recommend is that I have to double click on the Nunchuk recommendation and the broader idea of making things very accessible to people. So a lot of people approach self-custody as though it's rocket science, as though they have to defend against like the Ocean's 11th team coming in to get their Bitcoin. And that's not how they're going to lose their Bitcoin 9 to 9 to 9 times out of 100. They're going to lose their Bitcoin because they mess up the seed. They do something too complex or even more common than that, they never get started because they're too busy thinking about the Ocean's 11 scenario or that they're going to lose it, right?

So they just don't start. And so instead they trade Chiba Inu on Coinbase. And they never get a hardware wallet. And so like Nick Batia's literally his like, you know, undergraduate class at USC was filled with more people like seven out of 30 that traded Chiba Inu and like three out of 30 that had a hardware wallet ever. Right. And so that's the scenario we end up.

in. And so I think the important thing is if you're a Bitcoin user, if you're a consumer, check out some of the really easy to use solutions. And I think Nunchuk plus tap signer is a super easy combination that is really hard to go wrong with. You can set up, you know, experiment with a mobile wallet that's free, back up your seed phrase, bring Bitcoin to it, test it out. And then if you want to upgrade from there, get a $30 tap signer, build from there. If you I go, you know, if you have enough Bitcoin that it starts to matter beyond that, then look into hardware wallets, but at least start with that basic setup. It's better to start from something simple and is going to solve 99% of your problems, you know, maybe not the Oceans 11th scenario,

but you're still pretty good. And if you're a designer or if you're a Bitcoin company, just keep in mind that like the vast majority of Bitcoin users are going to be like drivers today. they're not going to know that intricacies that are under the hood of their car. You know, the best you can hope for is that they're going to know a handful of things. They have to put gas into it. They have to check the oil. They know to look at a couple dials, things like that. You know, you're not completely ignorant to how your car works.

And ideally, you know as much as possible about your car. But things have to be reasonably good and simple and dummy-proof user experience if you're going to hope for adoption of widespread usage. I think a lot of Bitcoiners build things for themselves. They're cyphabunks and they build things for other cypherpunks. We have to build things for the common intelligent person, which is they have a day job, but they want to hold good money,

and they just don't want to mess it up. And they just want a 99% solution that's going to solve as many of their problems as possible without maybe covering every edge case. I think that's a huge market to go after. And if you're a user, that's the market to consider. You know, don't worry about the hardcore stuff. Just get Nunchuk, get a tap signer, explore that type of thing.

Yeah. I'm so glad that you're shilling the Nunshuck tap signer combo. And I'm not paid by Nunchuk, by the way. I used it so much that I literally helped break it and help find bugs. And I love it. It's great. And honestly, like, the tap signer, like the one thing about the tap signer as well, that makes it kind of cool, especially if,

you're traveling around a lot is you have this instead of having just like a hot wallet on your phone you've got a situation where you can have something that's very discreet like once the last time you went through TSA and they're like excuse me could you empty out your wallet so we can look at each individual credit card that you have because like this this just slides into your wallet and it just looks they even have a tap signer that looks like a hotel key card so so you can that route if you want a tinfoil hat it and still get some pretty damn good security on the go. So anyways, and I'll just kind of side note. I'll wait, I'll wait until we're fully wrapped.

But I am doing a tap signer, Nunchuk multi-sig workshop in L.A. the day after the day after Pacific Bitcoin. So stick around and I'll, I'll shill it at the end after everybody heads out. But so I'm going to wrap this up here. I just wanted to say to all of you, this is such a great chat. I really enjoyed it. I thank all of you for your time. I realized that I ran a solid half hour over the estimated.

90 minutes is more of a guideline. I do appreciate that you guys all stayed for such an awesome chat. And everybody in the chat that was here. partaking as well. Thank you guys for being here too. And yeah, all of you are welcome back anytime. How many of you are going to be in LA, Steve and Lynn, I know Anita, are you around for it? It's too bad. I'm sure I will be seeing you again soon, though. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you and have a great weekend. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thanks guys. All right. Everybody watching,

Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you all. What a great time. What a legendary panel. Again, you know, one of my favorite shows in recent memory. It's so wonderful to have all of them here. Of course, if you've enjoyed watching the show, tap that like button. It's just below the screen there.

It honestly does help a lot when you guys are smashing that like button all the time. YouTube seems to like it. Or I saw people in the chat. Can you get on Rumble so I can watch there? It is on Rumble. It's live on Rumble. It's also live on Nostr. So all my Nostritch is out there watching.

I appreciate you as well. And then also it goes live to Twitter as well, X, whatever. But it's there nonetheless. Anyways, I did. I'm going to do my quick show for the workshop in L.A. Before we wrap up here, of course. So, yeah, I'm going to be down in L.A. on for Pacific Bitcoin.

So Pacific Bitcoin is coming up. this Thursday and Friday next of this coming week, so October 5th and 6th. And then I'm doing my workshop series on the 7th, the Saturday, which I'm very excited about. I'm doing two of them. So first thing in the morning on Saturday, I'm doing a Nunchuk and Tap Siner multi-Sig workshop. And so what's going to happen there is one, you're going to learn how to use Nunchuk wallet. You're also going to learn how to use the tap signer.

and then you're going to have multiple tap signers, and you're going to create a multi-sig inside of Nunshuck. So that's going to be pretty cool. So I'm very excited about that. Also, in the afternoon, we're going to do a cold card deep dive. I've done a lot of these. And so I'm very excited to do one again.

And so the cold card deep dive is basically, how the hell do you set up and use a cold card? We're going to start from scratch, set one up. we're going to import it to Sparrow wallet on desktop. We're going to learn how to do air gap transactions and move things back and forth. We're also going to wipe the device entirely and recover it from your seed phrase. And then we're also going to dive into some of the advanced features, some of the Uncle Jim stuff, some of the pass phrase stuff, all kinds of stuff. But yeah, I'm very excited for it.

There's only, I think, two tickets left for the Cold Card Workshop. maybe four left for the tap sign or multi-sig workshop. So if you want to grab them, there's a QR code on the screen right now that you can just scan. It'll take you right to the page. Anyways, guys, I'll start to wrap up here. Again, thank you so much. This was an absolute blast. I really enjoyed having everybody on.

If you can tap that like button, that's huge. If you want to help the show, you can hit up the sponsors. I'll mention down below. And if you're curious about anything else, head over to my website, BTCSessions.ca, you can book me for one-on-ones or also find the ticket info for the workshops. With that, I'm out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening. And I will see you guys next time for your daily session.

Hodel the Bitcoin.