BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Bitcoin + Beef, Dave Bradley, Dee from CoinKite ep303

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

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What is going on, everybody. Welcome to the show. It's Sunday, and it's an episode of Why Are We Bullish? We're doing it a little bit differently this week because I am currently in L.A. I was just at the Pacific Bitcoin Conference. I did do a Why Are We Bullish, but it was on Twitter spaces via the Swan, the Swan Twitter handle. But I will get video for that up at some point in the future. It is coming.

keep your eyes out for that. But thanks to everybody that listened in to that, presumably. I don't know. Sailor was talking at the same time, so pretty much everybody fucked off. There was like four people in the audience. But, you know, bare market things. We're going to be bringing in a panel of gentlemen.

Very excited to have a couple of them back. And a first timer. We got a newbie on the show. Very excited to have him as well. Of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my friend, here. We'll do it live. Okay.

We'll do it live. Do it live. I can, I'll write it and we'll do it live. The fucking thing sucks. If you have not already, like, subscribe, share, all those things, help a ton. Get this content in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. Hold on the Bixhorn.

Before we bring in our panel, let's take a look at where we are on the market. market right now. We are at $16,413 per coin. A single U.S. dollar will pick you up. 6,092 sats. That's a steal, my friends. If you have dry powder, then perhaps dabble in the idea of stacking a few cents. 91.46% of all Bitcoin have been mined. And in terms of fees, next block right now, 18 sats per byte. But if you're willing to wait a little bit, bit low single digits should do you just fine shout out to sponsor the show coin kite.com kind of an important thing right now self custody. These guys again, they just have the best damn hardware in the game.

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So be sure to check them out. CoinKite.com. Check out the store. Use code BTC sessions for 5% off. Everything there. If you're in Canada, shake pay. Super easy way to be stacking sats. You can e-transfer in and out with no deposit or withdrawal fees,

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As always, you have to exercise caution with these things. So, like, while I've been using Lennon, I'm pretty conservative when I do, obviously. I use it when there's a cash flow issue and I need dollars and I don't want to sell Bitcoin. I'll deposit, get a loan, pay off the loan and, you know, get my Bitcoin back. But, of course, you don't want to be overexposed to things like that. So, again, use your head. These guys have been very, very conservative through everything, which is probably why they've not been super screwy with all stuff like this. I was able to successfully withdraw Bitcoin consistently, even yesterday took back a little bit of Bitcoin.

So, yeah, I'll just say that, you know, Maricio over there is a good dude. And yeah, I don't know. They have not done me wrong thus far, but of course, be cautious. You've got to be smart with these things and you can check them out. Regardless, they've got tons of different stuff, all kinds of different services. I've done a full tutorial on how to use them. But exercise caution, guys, be smart. Bitrayfill.com.

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Anyways, enough of my rambling. We need to get our friends in here. So without further ado, we've got Dee, we've got Dave, we've got Tristan, gentlemen, welcome to the show. Very happy to have you. We're going to do a quick round of intros so that everybody knows what's up, knows who you are. So, Dee, let people know. who you are, what you do. Absolutely.

Yeah. So my name is D. I go by Hoddle D on Twitter. I'm pretty active on, obviously, Twitter, as most of these people on the panel here are. I work for Coin Kite, you know, sponsor BP Sessions YouTube channel. So, you know, I'm doing the support specialist stuff. So anything from emails to shipping issues or, you know, basic Bitcoin, you know, questions. That's me.

And, yeah, happy to help. and yeah always open my dms are always open if you got any questions awesome man glad to have you back of course absolutely thanks for having me yeah no worries tristan uh first time on the show let people know who you are what you do first time yeah thanks for having me uh i'm officially a newbie but yeah uh my name's tristan uh scott i am the author of a new book called bitcoin and beef so just write about you know the connection between decentralization being a solution for overly centralized food, health, pharma, and of course, monetary systems. And yeah, I'm at Bitcoin and Beef on Twitter.

And I'm a Fiat engineer by day, but I do all this in my spare time. So thanks for having me. Yeah, no worries, man. Glad to have you. Excited to hear what you got to say. And Dave, who is the, remind me, the strongest and best-looking Bitcoin entrepreneur in Canada. Welcome back to the show. That's correct. Thank you. I'm currently bouncing around downtown L.A. doing some shopping.

So if you hear a crazy person yelling in the background, it could be a homeless person, could be Maidex. So don't mind that. I'm currently in an Uber heading somewhere, hopefully quiet. I am Bitcoin Brains on Twitter. I am currently the chief revenue officer at Bitcoin Well, were publicly traded on the TSX venture in Canada. And I've also founded a few other companies, including Bull Bitcoin, where I worked with Ben for a time. And yeah, I've been in the space for since 2010, gotten into a whole bunch of different things since then. Awesome. Well, dude, glad to have you back.

It's funny because we're in the same town and literally saw each other in person just the other day. It's just not in the same part of town right now. So either way, we're going to get into this. Of course, everybody watching, this is why are we bullish. If you're unfamiliar, very simple premise to the show. Each person brings a reason why they're bullish, a topic, something. It could be a personal experience, an app, a device, whatever it may be, a news item, something that they're bullish about.

They get to rant on their reason. So we go by the three hours. Somebody's going to give a reason why they're bullish and do a little. little rant on it. Then we're going to riff on that reason altogether, questions, comments, whatever it may be. And then three, we're going to rotate. So reason riff, rotate until everybody gets a turn. So I'm going to start off.

I'm bullish on ramen noodles. That's not my... Stacking too many sets. Yeah. No, I've even got the bare market accommodations here and what next to my ramen noodles. I'm in some like Scuzzy Motel to save a few sats before my family gets here and we have an actual nice place. But I wanted to chat a little bit about actually the workshop that I did the other day. So I did a self-custody workshop with Cold Card with a number of attendees of Pacific Bitcoin.

So yesterday I rented out a space. A bunch of people came down. and we all learned how to basically how to set up use do air gap transactions wipe backup restore all of that stuff with the cold card and we got into a bunch of the advanced stuff

as well but the reason it makes me bullish is is again watching kind of people as they begin to understand how Bitcoin works under the hood. So I find teaching people on a cold card

especially using air gap transactions and them actually seeing it not plugged into a computer and not accessing the internet. And they begin to say, well, hold on, how does it know the balance and how to, and so all these

questions come up. So for instance, there was somebody and we were talking about how it would function. She said, well can you could you take my backup and import it onto another cold card

that has a different pin I was saying yes okay that yeah that would absolutely work and then she starts sorting through and she's like but if you had it linked up to sparrow wallet on your computer and I had it on my computer would it mean that like I could spend money and then

you could then spend the money again or I don't I really don't understand how that works and we I started going down the rabbit hole of saying well but none of the money is on the cold card it's on the bitcoin blockchain it's just the keys to that money are on that device and the keys are never online in a sense they're just there to approve a transaction that you put together and you're just taking that signature and then broadcasting it out saying yeah I approve this bitcoins are now moving and she begins to piece together like what a wallet actually is

and I think again the term wallet is so confusing for people and that's there's this push to migrate to the term signing device which is much more akin to what these things do but watching that realization of oh right the money is not on the device the device has no perception of what even exists, of the state of what it owns.

All it can see is do I have the credentials to sign a transaction? And if so, do I want to do it or not? And watching people parse through this and gain that deeper understanding, there's always this moment where they're super confused and then you see the light switch go. Oh, oh my God. Like it's not, the money's not on the device. And they suddenly realize it. I never get sick of seeing that.

And we're about to have a whole bunch more people have those breakthroughs. We're about to have a whole bunch more people start going down that rabbit hole, perhaps for the first time, which is really, really good. And don't get me wrong. There's going to be a whole. slew of new people that come in and probably have to wait to get burned to learn the exact same lessons. But for right now, as shit is hitting the fan, a lot of people are learning why self-custody is so important and they're learning all about it. I had a little interaction

online with somebody earlier today. And I can't remember who tweeted it. Anyways, I have a retweet over it kind of it kind of pissed me off but basically it was some guy saying if if you're the kind of person who says not your keys not your coins you're basically saying um that nobody should ever get into bitcoin because nobody nobody wants to learn this oh and and i was like i was like if and it had and his tweet had like 2 000 and something likes and i was like Every person that liked this, if they follow the implied advice of like perpetually keeping, you know, all of their holdings in a custodian, they will incur losses in the coming years. It's a certainty. If that's, if that's the advice they glean from this guy.

And so I kind of got to the point where, you know, I was chatting with a few people back and forth. but in real terms, self-custody is not more difficult than legacy banking in terms of the skill set you need to learn. In terms of, I mean, think of how difficult online banking can be. Like the bullshit of submenus and getting into your accounts or think of how difficult, you know, the average person going into their bank account and then trying to create like a trading account for, for like buying stock and mutual funds through their actual bank as opposed to, you know, like Robin Hood and crap like that. It's not, it's not like a simple process for people to do things like this. And they still learn it. People still learned how to use the internet in the early days.

It got easier. Bitcoin will get easier. But to, but to basically say nobody like, you should not advise people to do this to, take hold of their own money is such an asinine take to me. So anyways, I am bullish because I got to sit and firsthand watch people learn the inner workings of Bitcoin yesterday and have those epiphanies that we all have all had at one point. So that's kind of where I'm at. I'll open it up to you guys, thoughts, comments regarding kind of where we're at

and the onslaught of people we're about to get learning self-custody. Who wants to go first? I can go first on that one. I don't 100% agree with that. I think

there's obviously a lot of people learning that less than the hard way of, you know, you shouldn't trust the people that you trust with your coins. But I think ultimately not everyone in the world needs to learn how to custody

their own coins. And I think when we get to a point of real mass adoption, That's probably going to come along with services that are a lot more like our traditional banking services and who will custody your coins. I think the big issue is who is custodying your coins, right? And right now, there are no services really that are made for the end user that are just custody. And so when you lend your money out, like, a good analogy would be like, do you want to keep your money with a casino? That doesn't seem like a very good place to keep your money.

And that's kind of where it's going right now is that these retail users are trusting these guys that are basically gambling addicts running their own gambling platforms. And when they make bets, they keep the profits that they win. And then if they lose, then obviously the users take the hit.

And that's what we're seeing right now. So I think eventually we're going to need services that offer custody without all these other things. And I don't think that's really appropriate for a business that does custody or coins to be offering leverage, lending, anything else, really, it should just be a custody service that operates like a bank and gives you a measure of control over your keys with convenient infrastructure.

And I think that will be something that we'll see in the future. But, you know, right now, there's no way to recommend anything rationally other than custodying your own coins in a situation like this. What do you think of the idea of a, you know, like the, the, the, collaborative custody where like, you know, you basically have a backstop against screwing up so monumentally, but it's just kind of there in case. Yeah, I think that's a big improvement for sure. What we need to get to, though, is for, and when you compare like what we're at now with

traditional financial services, my drink has arrived. I know we're supposed to be drinking on these, right? I think if you compare using Bitcoin self-custodying your Bitcoin to the average like base layer online banking experience in traditional finance Bitcoin is much more difficult when you add in all that stuff of getting into your trading and all this stuff then it becomes comparably difficult but if you just want to have your funds in an account that you use to pay for things that's a user experience that people are pretty comfortable with and I think we need to get to a point where a Bitcoin user can have an experience that is at least as easy as that.

Do you think that the ease of use with the bank accounts and things like that, do you think that's just a symptom of people have done it? Because like it really like with a Bitcoin wallet, it's download an app and write down some words, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I guess if you like if you compare that to the whole process of going into a bank and, you know, giving them your ID and setting up your account. Like, that's comparably difficult, but yeah, they've already done it. So the ongoing effort and the new marginal effort required to keep using your bank account is very low, right? Once you've got it all set up.

But that's where we need to get with Bitcoin, I think, as well. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to remember the other point that I was going to go after with you. What? I'm sure it was good. Well, I'll let somebody else jump in first, and then when I recall, I'll come back. Yeah. You know, obviously, you know, we're all coming from different kind of parts here.

So I am fully in the, I really hope we can educate people to self-custody. I agree that there will be some people that are going to be maybe perhaps lazy, maybe not lazy, but just aren't willing to learn. so there will be, you know, custodial options for them. I think they just got to realize and understand the risk. Like, you know, we were talking about trial by fire earlier

and just every single cycle, I feel like it's just the same thing. You know, we were talking about spaces and earlier, you know, this week has been kind of like these crazy old coin, you know, shit coin spaces that have like 30,000 people in it. And then there's one with, you know,

some hardcore bitcointers. telling people to self-custody and have a few hundred or like way less, right? And I feel like, you know, a lot of people are kind of just looking for a place to go up on stage and not cry, but, you know, cry out for, you know, what happened to them and how much money they lost and blah, blah, blah, whereas they should really be in the spaces with the hardcore bitcoiners learning about how to not make that mistake again. And I feel like, you know, there might be some people that make it out the other side of this. but there are a lot of people that just won't learn until they're broke.

And then even then, they'll keep doing it because, you know, we're humans and, you know, casinos make a shit ton of money for a reason. You know, we love to gamble. And it's unfortunate, but I am really confident in teaching people, hopefully, that we can get more people on self-custody. And again, like I said, I agree there will be Castile solutions. You know, there's risk in that. There's also a risk with self-custody. You know, it's responsibility go up.

I think we talked about that on the last show. But, you know, responsibility go up. People got to learn. It's not super easy all the time. You know, it takes some dedication. But if you're, you know, you have thousands of dollars that you're looking to save and, you know, not have ripped from your hands or rugged, I think it's worth the time to put in and understand what you're doing.

And, you know, obviously, BTC sessions here is doing a great job teaching people and in self-custody. Thanks, man. Tristan, I'll get your take. I did recall what I'm going to say, asked Dave about, but Tristan, you go ahead. What are your thoughts on this?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a spectrum, right? So we have an uphill battle against, like, innate human psychology that D's kind of bring up, right? And it's the funny point of like, fuck around and find out that's become like really popular. And that could be positive and negative, right? So you could, you know, gamble on, you know, lending and leverage and all coins.

and whatnot on a platform that is backed by, you know, nothing. So you could pay the price. But you could also get educated and you just try something. I mean, learning something new is always going to be, you know, intimidating. But is it really that much more difficult? I like how you compare it. You know, the traditional banking system is convenient for everybody because they already know how to use it.

And they've been using it for years. But really, it's not that much more challenging. It's just different. unknown. But to Dave's point, I think it's a fair comparison, but you mentioned, you know, the traditional banking system, these exchanges aren't really that much different from a commercial bank. I mean, banks are lending out $10 on every $1 you put in. If you went and tried to pull out $500K, they wouldn't let you. They're just backed by the government. So it's, it's really a gamble with any crypto exchange because they're obviously just not backed by any government FDIC entity. So

Yeah, I think it's a mixture of that, but education needs to move forward. And there's always going to be an uphill battle. But if you think about these high net worth individuals, for sure, they're paying someone to be their custodian. I mean, if you have like millions in Bitcoin or something, it's worth to pay the risk. Like, they're not going to be just messing around on their phone, trying to, you know, store millions and millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin. I'd imagine that's for sure going to drive custodians forward. And, And there must be some out there that are doing this already with like cold storage. At least I remember reading about some. And was it like Avanti, whatever Caitlin Long's doing, I feel like that's kind of in that space for that for custodian Bitcoin. Even multi-sig and like cost of chains, stuff like that. I think that's a great solution because, you know, you're still, you still have some custody, but you haven't actually key with them. So, you know, you have a backup kind of thing. Yeah, so I see it as a spectrum.

But overall, it's, yeah. I mean, we need to get more bullish on self-custy education, I think. Yeah, yeah. So my points and Tristan, you kind of hit on it as well here. So in regards to, you know, like where it will go and what people will be doing in the future with storage of Bitcoin. And Dave, you hit on the point of like, who is the custodian, right? Like right now, they're casinos, right? You're leaving your money in a casino as a way to store it.

And Tristan said, well, the traditional banking system is very similar. They go and they gamble. They do all kinds of crazy shit. I wonder if what we see moving forward, and I'm very inclined to believe this is indeed what we'll see, is a repeat of the sentiment that we had going into this surprise with FDX because FDX was kind of elevated to a point. They were like, oh, Sam Bankman-Fried is the shining example of like how to finally properly run a Bitcoin exchange and, oh, look, his parents are regulators.

I think it was Kevin O'Leary. He's like, if there's one place I'm going to put my money that I won't get in trouble, it's FTX because his parents are the regulators and they know how to run or compliance officers or whatever the hell they did for a living. Do we get to a place where the exact same fucking sentiment happens because banks are now offering it

and oh they, you know, well, it's their banks and they know what they're doing and it's not so much who is the custodian but what is the asset and how does it react? when shit goes wrong. Banks have always had the backstop of if we screw up enough, they'll print more money to keep us whole, more or less.

When the asset itself cannot be printed, all you can really do is perhaps print more money so that they can try to buy back more of the asset or return the dollar denomination of what the asset was at the time of loss which likely won't buy back the same amount of said asset. So do you think that's where we go? And as a solution,

do you think that perhaps an in-between for some people that aren't technically capable enough to do this, perhaps fedaments down the line? Yeah, I think that's a good point is like what the institution is and what kind of risks they're taking differs. In a way, these guys also had the ability to print money. It's just the money they were printing wasn't as good as dollars. So they had their own tokens.

And that ability to print or sell more of the tokens that they'd already issued is what kept them afloat for a long time. And it was kind of realizing that very thing that made the whole thing fall apart, right? Once everybody was like, oh, shit, there's nothing here except for these garbage tokens that they just printed from thin air, right? And if a similar moment happened with dollars, that could for sure happen with banks. And we've seen that in a lot of countries. That's kind of what's happening in Lebanon right now. It's not super dissimilar to the FDX situation, really, right? There's a limit to how much you can print to bail things out.

And at a certain point, the traditional financial institutions will run into that as well, for sure. And that's sort of like a bump that we're going to go through along the path to hyper-bitquinization at some point. but I think when it comes right down to it, like, yeah, you need to be a little bit more aware of who you're trusting. And right now, Dave froze in the middle of his point. Oh, darn. It was a good point. That's kind of what I was going to bring up to. It's like you're comparing FTT to USDA.

It's a bit different, but it is frightening because they can get away with it. And, you know, on that scale is alarming. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's just, again, we're seeing the same story consistently play out over and over again at varying scales. But like to what Dave was saying, it's just the, it's, what's the, is it Gresham's law where, where money is flowing towards the, the better, the better asset? Like you can't, again, you print enough of something. People aren't going to value that thing anymore. It won't prop you up.

There's Dave's, Dave's back. You got, you got cut off part way through. Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of what I was getting at is like, you know, they're really the same thing. But what's going on right now is that the risks that these casinos are taking are very clearly not well managed, right? And I think part of that is this whole rise of defy and the way that pretty much every one of these big stupid players in the space was like, oh, yeah, we can just lend out to each other and then generate yield out of nothing. And that's a new business line, right? And so that whole thing is unraveling right now. And that particular risk was the one that was way too far.

And that's not dissimilar to the like 2008, let's all invest in mortgage-backed securities that we don't understand. Pretty similar. But yeah, exactly. There was no longer anyone to print money who could print money that was actually valuable. Oh, BT sessions. I think you're on mute, buddy. My bad. Sorry.

All right. well i'm gonna i'm gonna leave this i guess leave this topic as is um it's again it's i'm really curious kind of where we go i know where i'd like us to go i'd like as many people as possible to self-custody i recognize that there's there's always going to be those that that defer some of that responsibility in some way shape or form and i hope that the majority of that although maybe I'm wishing and hoping a little too much. I hope that the majority of those that want to push off their responsibility can go to some type of option where they have a degree of control or where they're in a system where it's somehow limited in scope where they can get hurt. So something like fetaments or whatever it may be or perhaps down the line.

institutions maintain fediments and people are part of those. I don't know exactly what that will look like, but nonetheless, it's got to be better because when you have an asset that can't be printed, a loss is a loss is a loss. And there's no fucking getting it back. And people will continue to be burned because that's what happens when you give people absolute power over your money. So I will wrap that one there. We're going to do a little rotation here.

Everybody in the chat, thank you for being here. I'm going to start pulling up some of the comments here. There were some early comments about Dave's ride in the Uber. They were wondering where you're headed. He's riding the Uber. Yeah. But nonetheless, we'll do a rotation. Dee, I'm going to go to you next.

I'm just going to ask, why are you bullish, man? Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a few points here because I was assuming self-cussy would definitely come up. I'm bullish on Bitcoin is dead. I mean, I'm seeing like crazy maxi, you know, maxis that, you know, invests all their money in Bitcoin in the gutters. And, you know, financially, I don't think it matters. But it really does, you know, hit you a little bit, right? I mean, we were at 30K for a while.

Every dip below 30K, you know, there was a buy the fucking dip, you know, on Twitter. And then, you know, here we are at, what, 16K,000. I fit almost 50% down from that. And people are like, I got no money left. Like I pulled out a line of credit. I already put out all my money. I have no more money left. What am I going to do?

Obviously, you know, they're there for the long term. So it doesn't affect them too much because they have that conviction. But it's definitely, I've seen it a lot on Twitter. You know, the mood's definitely pretty bleak right now. I'm in a few signal groups. And, you know, you know, the. the bullest of the bulls are like, damn, I didn't think we'd get to this point. You know what I mean? So, you know, Bitcoin is, you know, officially dead for the, you know, 12th time.

You know, I don't like to talk about price too much, but, you know, everyone is trying to aim for this, you know, 100K, right? A lot of people talk about 100K. And we're below 20K. So, I mean, even if you think that Bitcoin's going to go to 100K, which is basically inevitable, you're going to 5x your money. So that makes me extremely bullish. You know, I'm not trying to be a Fiat guy, you know. I'm going to obviously not sell my Bitcoin 100K. But, you know, I'm going to buy goods and services with it. But, yeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm super bullish. You know, we're down in the gutters.

You know, hardcore people are really getting down and dirty. So I'm buying the knife all the way down. I'm pretty happy. But, you know, it does play with you, right? It's kind of an emotional roller coaster. I mean, I haven't been in the space as long as some people like Dave here. You know, this is my, you know, first second cycle. But, you know, I'm, I'm just surprised about how down in the gutter people are.

And I don't know how low this goes. But, you know, I get why people say Bitcoin is dead because there's, there's all these traders and stuff. They're like, whoa, I didn't think that CZ or Sam Bankman-Fried could, could manipulate the market this much. Like, like, wow, like, this is insane. Does no one know about this risk? I'm like, dude, like we've been talking about this forever. Like, this is not new information.

Where have you been? Clearly not in our space as you've been talking on a shit coin space about, you know, how are you going to pump your next NFT? And, you know, people are ringing the alarm bell saying, hey, listen, like, there's a lot of risk here, counterparty risk. You know, we're talking about proof reserves. And, you know, obviously they're not going to show their proof of liabilities, which is hilarious. You know, proof of reserves kind of nothing of it was.

the proof of liability. But yeah, it was just, it was quite the weak. You know, people, yeah, I don't think anyone has anything else to do. So they just hop on Twitter and and moan and and sigh and, you know, and they're like, I've no money left. So yeah, I think obviously we're a lot closer to a bottom than the top. And it makes me extremely bullish because I can buy, you know, 6,000 sats per dollar now instead of, you know, the 4,000 or the, you know, the 3,000 I could have bought a few months ago.

So I'm really excited. And even for me, you know, it does feel weird, right? Like the bottom, it's like you're buying, but you're like, like, am I crazy? Am I the weird? Am I the crazy one for buying this right now? People think it's going to keep going down, right? So why am I buying? Like, why does this feel so weird to buy right now?

So I think we're pretty close to the bottom. But, you know, I'm not a fortune teller. I'm just here for the ride and I enjoy it. Yeah. I love that you said you're bullish because Bitcoin is dead, because our Uber driver the other day, we were coming back from the conference. And then she's like, there's a lot of people. What's going on here?

And I was like, oh, Bitcoin conference. She's like, oh, I thought that was dead. Like, it's all over the news right now. Literally, we have to be like, well, you know, no, it's basically a casino losing everybody's money. It's not. It's still works. It's still doing its thing. it's done this many times before so um but yeah like that that mentality of anybody that's kind of

not around in bitcoin is definitely there um and you know this is these are kind of the times when again we'll look back years from now and all the people who kind of you know everybody that's you know that that uber driver probably a few years from now they'll be like i i swear i saw coverage of like bitcoin died like that will be that right things still around so again i don't know how much more dead it will be perhaps we'll have a few more eulogies uh over the course of the next calendar year or whatever um but hey you know like if i mean Dave you've you said it before uh best time to buy bitcoin was you know whatever 2009 second best time is right now so there you go. I don't know. Thoughts. Thoughts on these topic. Yeah, I guess people just need to zoom out.

Classic, right? I mean, 2020 lows were still up 4X. Most tech companies nowadays can't say that. I mean, look at all the other stocks. Meta, Amazon, they're like either down or flat. I mean, Apple, Microsoft, are up like 100% maybe from 2020 lows. So, yeah, I mean, it's just classic again, psychology. But I've, I've never been more bullish. The last, uh, last, bear market,

I was way more into shit coins. So it's way more stressed out, even though I didn't have like that much money because I was in college. But, uh, yeah, I'm like so excited. And I, I think when you really become a Bitcoin fundamental,

uh, fundamentalist or maxillist, I guess you could call it is, you kind of like almost get more excited when the price goes down. So that's how I, how I'm just how I'm just how I'm just how I'm just how. trying to create as much, you know, extra cash as possible, like side hustles and, and just sell my neighbor's chairs right now.

Yeah, like sell your random shit you have on Facebook marketplace or start flipping couches, get creative people. You probably, and we'll probably have a good, you know, maybe, you know, multi-month opportunity here to buy at a great price. So, but it has, the sentiment has been extremely, extremely low because, you know, Yeah, I mean, this FTCX thing is like 0809 for crypto. It's insane. But if you look at that and you're like, wow, all this happened like this,

you couldn't even write a movie script like this. And Bitcoin's still at 16K. Okay. That's not too bad, you know. All this talk, I'm looking around this motel room. I'm like, there's probably a bunch of stuff I could sell in here. Yeah. Priceless pieces of art.

Just a side note, since Benke, He keeps bringing up his motel here and my Uber was mentioned. We were like wandering around downtown here looking for a quiet place to record. And where I've ended up now is the four seasons Beverly Hills, which is like pretty much the exact opposite of that motel, I think. You could probably find some shit to sell over there. Yeah, exactly. I think this cup is probably worth one Bitcoin.

But yeah, I think going back to the point, like all of it comes down to pretty much greed and fear. Those are the two emotions that regulate everyone when they make trading decisions especially. And some of us, you know, I kind of joked about it in the past that it takes about six bareball cycles before you're like truly inoculated to the emotion of the whole thing. And like I've on paper lost a lot of money in dollars in the last like a couple weeks, I guess. but like I don't really care. It's like I have the same number of bitcoins. And it takes a little while to get to that, to get to that point.

And I think there's still like when we, when we hit the bottom is when the fear is maximum and the greed has receded. And I think there's still like way too much irrational greed in the cryptosphere. There's still people talking about how like, you know, when we see all of this,

everyone breaking everything down, in the same way that SBF, was the good guy, like a month ago, bailing out companies. Like, now CZ is a good guy. And it's like, okay, well, yeah, like, we just, that's not what we need. We don't need, like, a slightly more honest and competent casino operator, right? Like, so there, I don't think we've hit, like, maximum fear yet. And they're, like, it's kind of interesting being in L.A. with this stuff with, with crypto.com.

I don't know if they're solving or not, but they're, obviously having some issues we're seeing today. And like on the way here, we drove by the arena. You know what I mean? Like there's still, there's still very sort of ostentatious, um, representations of the fictional wealth that the like crypto economy had created. And I don't think that we're going to really be able to get out of the bear market

until the crypto.com arena is not the crypto.com. arena. There's a name an arena. There's that bottom marker threshold we're looking for. As soon as the arena starts swapping out their signs, then it might be a good time. Yeah. I mean, XRP is like $17 billion still. So that's just ridiculous.

Same with those. Yeah. It's like, and I'm, flush it out. It's like, I don't know when that goes away. Because, like, again, there's a bunch of bullshit where as a percentage, like in Bitcoin terms, each time that we go through a bearer market and a bull market, all of these coins in terms of like their token value versus Bitcoin, it's like it's just a volatile path towards zero, right? Like that's mostly what we've seen bar a couple exceptions like the richest man in the world,

pumping doge right so there's there's very few exceptions to that that volatile pathway to having less bitcoin if you own anything else um but when measuring in dollar terms you do in in a lot of in well not a lot but in a good chunk of some of these you do see their market caps have grown from one cycle to the next you know like the the the bigger bullshit ones like Ethereum. Like while it's still at the peak of this bull run got to half of its

previous price versus Bitcoin at the top it's still its market cap and dollars it went up quite a bit. But also so did the number of tokens. So

I think people are going to again use like the market cap and stuff like that and they'll try to point to that as oh yeah these these are useful or look there it's the market cap grew it's now worth this much but again it's it's the the relative value as for you as a a holder of that token and on top of it I mean we just printed a fuck ton of money over the past few years so like is is the value like that that has a play in what the value or in terms of market cap of these things do as well.

So it just when the when the money that everybody uses is broken, it becomes, I'm now understanding how difficult it becomes to decipher value for the average person. And I mean, the same thing happened. You watch Weimar Germany. You read the book when money dies. Everybody is investing in all of this shit. But it's donate, it's denominated in marks and nobody has a clear clue. as to what anything has in like what the value of anything was it was everybody was just so

confused everybody seemed felt like they were getting rich for a while and um yeah it's i guess i'm just trying to say it's a giant cluster fuck i don't know what else to say here i don't know dave what do you think it's definitely a giant cluster fuck um it's pretty entertaining though Like that's part of the whole emotional detachment is being able to sit back and be like Like in some ways I feel like that the meme of like that this is fine guy and the dog in the fire You know what I mean like oh yeah it actually is fine because We're just gonna wait and that's the the single best strategy you can use in Bitcoin is just wait Yeah, I was just gonna comment on the the Ponziomics right it's hard to to argue with shick

pointers online nowadays because, you know, Eath has billions of dollars staked and they can't even get it out. And you're like, well, obviously the market cap's high because no one can pull out their fucking money, you know? And it's like, how is that a fair comparison to something that's incredibly liquid, to something that's illiquid and say, look, see, the market cap's this big. And you're like, well, I mean, like the other day Seoul just did their unstaking. And it is just tanking. I mean, obviously, FTCX as well. But there's just a lot of Ponzi that go into these things and, you know, leveraging also, you know, and grabbing liabilities on your assets and just, you know, compounding, compounding.

And then, you know, obviously we see this like right now, all these things are unwinding. But it's just, it's just hard to argue with, you know, people online with these things, especially when there's, you know, locked liquidity and stuff like this ridiculous things that pump that market cap artificially, right? I mean, I thought the, like, Twitter was the beacon of civil online discourse, to be honest. Oh, yes. All the, all the wise men and women come on there to discuss. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I guess to sum it up, we're bullish because Bitcoin is dead. It may become more dead in the interim. But then we do believe at some point in the future. it will be markedly less dead and this is bullish it'll be like Jesus rising again you know yes yeah exactly yeah uh so with that let's do a little rotation d thank you for that topic absolutely yeah and i will uh

i'll jump to tristan here dude uh let us know why are you bullish man yeah um i'm bullish on exchanging value for value and and building during the bear um i think this is some Fantastic opportunity. We just talked about, you know, how the sentiment is so low right now. But a lot of the things I'm working on and I talk about is, it's kind of growing that circular Bitcoin economy, connecting our food system with our, you know, our Bitcoin economy and system and educating across the board. Because for starters, A, what have we talked about here today? we've talked about self-custody, and we've talked about, you know, the price of an item causing extremely low sentiment. So I see that as, you know, people are not taking accountability and responsibility, and they're also have a high time preference.

And these are not exclusive to, you know, Bitcoin and money. This is like the problem with our entire society. And a lot of that we talk about, we talk about like food and health, you know, that's why people don't even know how to cook anymore. and they just Uber eats like some garbage fast food and they trade their convenience for, you know, quality. And it's because they don't have that low time preference mindset and they don't have the responsibility or the accountability to go learn these things to improve their quality of life. So I think there's a lot of overlap. So, you know, what I've been working on, a lot of folks who are kind of, you know, bridging the gap between, you know, the food system and Bitcoin, which has been really gaining momentum lately with a few folks, the beef, initiative is kind of, yeah, exchanging value for value.

So I've seen a lot of people start paying, you know, ranchers with Bitcoin, even in a bear market. I've started my own kind of like direct to consumer. I'm trying to of selling bison meat. And I've had, you know, I've, I've just gotten started in the last month. And yeah, half my, half my customers have paid me in Bitcoin. And some of them, you know, has been in the last week. So people are willing to pay.

for value with value. And I think it's really important. And I'm so bullish on that because for the longest time, I was kind of that guy who is like, I'm not giving you my Bitcoin. Are you crazy? But in reality, I mean, you could just give someone Bitcoin. It's more transactable. It's, you know, showing that you appreciate their service by giving them such a, you know, hard form of money. And then you could just replace that, you know, Bitcoin and with your Fiat that you have. It's no different. And now, you know, with what Strike is doing, you don't even have to really do that. And I think Cash App is going to have a similar ability to just send people Bitcoin with Fiat. So they're going to just do that conversion right on the app for you.

So super bullish on that and building the circular economy. I had an event down in Austin yesterday with a lot of more health-minded folks. And Michael Atwood, who runs the OSHA app, got a lot of people set up. up with lightning and we tip the chef who cooked this brisket, a fantastic meal in some sats. And he, you know, he didn't have a wallet or anything. So I think really building a circular economy is is so bullish because that's how we really increase adoption and show people that you actually care about their products and services is by giving them Bitcoin. I love that. This is also what I'm very obsessed with at the moment, particularly

because I witnessed you know my country shut down people's bank accounts earlier this year so I am very keen on saying fuck you to banks

and to people that shut down people's bank accounts and so I've been kind of on a mission this year to to further remove myself from traditional banking where possible and one of the things I did you mentioned people buying beef from ranchers.

And so literally the end of October, I went and I found a rancher in southern Alberta. And I bought a quarter of a cow with my friend. We split on it and we paid in Bitcoin. And so I stocked up my freezer and everything. And yeah, it's it, I don't know, the idea of finding people locally that I can transact. with and create relationships with, I think is very important. And I'm trying to do more of it. I'm trying to find more people. There is a meetup in my city that happens every couple weeks. And I'm going to try and float the idea to the guys that organize it to purposely maybe at the end of

each meeting, have like a 10-minute segment where people who own businesses and would like to accept Bitcoin can go up to the front and say, hey, this is what we do. You know, you're all Bitcoiners. So if you're interested in paying in Bitcoin, we will accept it. Come find us. Or somebody to go up and say, hey, I'm looking for this. If anybody here offers it or if you know somebody who offers it and might be willing to accept Bitcoin, please let me know. And I think that would be a lofty goal for a lot of people. Like I'd love to see more meetups, have a focus on each meetup, like just a little segment where this happens.

again, the censorship-resistant aspect of Bitcoin has become more important to me, particularly this year. But you're right. The value-for-value idea is kind of important as well. And I prefer to be paid in Bitcoin. And the act of kind of being paid in Bitcoin and living on Bitcoin makes me more likely to save rather than spend in a lot of instances because it becomes an active choice of like I'm actually spending the sats versus like if I have the fiat it already feels kind of worthless so I'm like well just you know spend this it's you have to make the leap of like okay now I'm going to buy the bitcoin with the fiat I was going to spend instead of just having the bitcoin and being like

do I want to give these sats to somebody or not and I'm going to toss this to Dave here for a second because you were on stage the other day talking about Bitcoin businesses. And one of the questions was, what are some things you need to consider, some hurdles that you need to contend with when you're Bitcoin business? And you brought up the idea of, well, if you're a Bitcoin business in a bare market, you have to contend with the idea that Bitcoiners are very low time preference. And they're probably not going to buy your shit unless it's really good. So you need to have a really good reason why somebody would part with their stats. for what you're offering. Yeah, I think there's an interesting underlying concept here

and what a couple things that have come up. And you hear this like never spend your Bitcoin thing from a lot of people. And never spending your Bitcoin implies that you have a lot of dollars. Because you've got to spend those dollars, right? And so the closer you get to being all in, the more realistic spending your Bitcoin is, the more you actually have to spend your Bitcoin. And the more you start to look at the choice there,

where when you spend dollars, you're not only spending the dollars, you're making the choice not to spend those dollars on Bitcoin. Right. So that's kind of what I mean with the low time preference. I'm like, you know, I hold dollars. I have dozens of dollars. And I have to because like we were like this literally just happened.

This is why I was looking for places. we were out looking for a place to buy cigars. And my good friend, Medex, was trying to buy some cigars. And he is one of those people who's like way in on Bitcoin. And we're in another country, so our payments aren't quite as good. And the cigar store didn't take Bitcoin. And so Madex didn't buy as many cigars as he would have otherwise bought. And I think building that circular economy is the first step sort of in that direction

where we're moving to a place where we're moving to a place where, where we all have to spend money to live. But as people who have seen the impact of spending bitcoins, you know, I always tell the story of like I opened a Bitcoin store in 2013 and I spent 120 bitcoins to buy the furniture for the store. And like I've got like one broken desk pedestal left. And so you start to think in terms of like, what will this be worth?

You know what I mean? Like if I, if I buy something, like, and granted, like, I'm buying drinks at an expensive, fancy place right now, so I'm not following this. But what will this be worth if I would have put this into Bitcoin instead, right? And so that question of, like, how do you get customers to buy your product instead of buying Bitcoin? Your product has to measure up. It has to be useful. It has to be good. and that's a super important part of the whole circular economy

and I think your whole story about the cow makes a lot of sense right because that cow is probably way cheaper in dollar terms than going to the grocery store and buying a shittier version of that and so it's going to drive us all in a direction where we value high quality products we value things at last and we're willing to spend what would have otherwise been potentially larger amounts of of dollars or a greater amount of value in the future because we find those products that make sense to us right now.

And so that's like a super key part of the whole circular economy, I think, is finding places where we can use the fact that we are low time preference believers to improve the products that we're offering and to improve, you know, like you've got to have a pretty good reason for somebody to spend their sats. Yeah, absolutely. Dee, what do you think? Sure. Yeah.

I don't spend too many stats, to be honest. I do when I can. Like, you know, I went to Bitblock Boom in Texas, and they had a few boosts there with lightning. And it was obviously super fast, and I got a nice hat. But, yeah, no, I agree with you in a sense that I think we should be spending and creating those circular economies and, you know, kind of circulating it, right? I do like doing the, you know, spend and replace kind of method, right, so that you're not losing out potentially on a lot of, you know, wealth, right? If you're spending all your Bitcoin in 2010 and only have half as much now, you're probably beating yourself up, right? So a spend and replace method is great.

I think there's other options like bit refill that, you know, you pay for a credit card and you can even buy, like you say, a coin kite gift card or whatnot, whatever you'd like. And using that and paying for Bitcoin with that or, you know, I think it's great circulating Bitcoin around. I just haven't had too much expertise with it. Not too many things around my area that accept Bitcoin. But, you know, any person I talk to, obviously, I'm trying to onboard them to Bitcoin and show them the benefits and perks of Bitcoin. My mom, she's like a nail lady. She specializes in nails. So she's gotten a few of her friends to sign up to shake pay through.

and she got her little referral bonus. And I think one or two of her clients do pay her in Bitcoin, which is actually really cool. She was super excited about that, you know. I love it. I'm orange-pilling my family. But, yeah, I'd love to buy beef with Bitcoin. But my family does run a beef farm. So I get free beef.

But, hey, yeah. They should sour beef for Bitcoin. Maybe I should think about. selling me for Bitcoin. I know. I got a, I got to, where are you at? I mean, we're in Canada and okay. So yeah, yeah. Wow, so I'm the only American here. Is that? Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm actually the American here. I'll ask BTC sessions to bring me back some of your Bison. Yeah, a lot of people have asked me to ship to Canada, but if you guys do want Bison, I do know a Bison rancher in Alberta. So maybe he's close to you. He's legit too. He used to run

Rome Ranch, which is affiliated with Force of Nature. They're pretty big. So he's legit, regenerative and everything. But yeah, I think you bring up a good point, D, for sure, the refill. And yeah, but I just see it as it's also a great opportunity to onboard merchants. I mean, all these merchants usually come online at like the top of the bull. And then, you know, they start taking Bitcoin as payment and all of a sudden, you know, we're in the bear market. and their Bitcoin is worth less.

So now I feel like that's why I'm bullish on building it because this is the time to get merchants on board because, yeah, it's a great time to accumulate stats, right? And I think it's just a great initiative that we need to get behind. And then what you mentioned earlier is the hyper local approach as well. If you can get, you know, that's really decentralization, right? If you can start spending Bitcoin within your local, economy that's even more powerful because then, you know, you're just exchanging it for certain

goods. You know, someone has something you want. You have something they want. And then there's all a sudden 10 merchants or vendors in your town and you're all exchanging Bitcoin and you're all over a long time preference, you know, rising in value. So the whole town will elevate at that point. Yeah. I think the local approach is is the way most people should do it. Like that's, that's where things actually happen because you, you're impacting the people locally around you and then they're going to it's it's it's how the lasting change happens right when it's like a a top down thing i i i tend to see more again it's typically not driven by the ideals it's it's more like a marketing schick in a lot of instances at least it was early on like

when you know you saw microsoft except bitcoin there's a few other like major retailers that did it for a time and they did it more as like oh you know there's hype and you're right it's always like the top of a bull market they're like oh yeah we're accepting this now because it seems like the hip and in thing to do and then they're like oh yeah and then they just kind of quietly get rid of it in the background and then it becomes like you know some some journalists will jump on it and oh they're no longer accepting it bitcoin's dead now um so you know the i the local approach i think is the right one I think, you know, as I was saying, go to those local meetups and start doing that approach of, okay, what's everybody do? What do you guys offer?

Do you know people that, you know, because it's not just the people in the room. It's the people that they know because they're going to know other Bitcoiners too that might be interested in this. And I think this is going to be kind of my focus in the coming year or so trying to, you know, hit those local meetups and trying to, encourage this type of mentality. You know, if you're aiming too high, then you might miss, but you can definitely impact your kind of local meetup and go from there. Yeah. Well, even if, like, you know, like shop local, stuff like that.

That's been around for a while. You shop at a local, you know, mom and pop store, you know, at least 50 cents of every dollar. It kind of gets recirculated around your area, whereas you're going to McDonald's, you're buying, you know, $20 meal, that money is going into the terminal and right out to, you know, wherever else. So, yeah, shop local is is a great thing that we can transition into the shop local with Bitcoin for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Well, I'm glad we had that, that topic, because you're right, it's the, it's the right time, you know, in terms of how the merchants will benefit if they, if they're already interested in Bitcoin at this point.

It's much better to start, you know, nudging now than, you know, when your Uber driver is telling you that they're balls deep in Shiba Inu or something like that, right? Like maybe, maybe like hold off on on encouraging the merchants at that point. So yeah. Anyways, yeah. Okay, so we're going to wrap this topic and we're going to move on to the next. I'm going to give Dave the floor here. And given his previous appearances, I'll ask Dave, what? are you bullish and or bearish?

Yeah, so last time I was on here, I talked a lot about why I was not bullish. And it turns out I was super right. And I think it would be really useful to a lot of people to adopt the very sensible risk management approach if we should just listen to Dave. I like it. But yeah, I'm a little, I'm getting, I'm getting closer. I'm like cautiously optimistic. There needs to be more blood in the streets.

That's what I said last time. And there's obviously a lot more blood in the streets now than there was a couple months ago whenever we were talking about this. But there's still not enough. Like we were literally, we were just at a cigar lounge here. And we met some random people. this one guy was like he had like an 80s one hit

wonder it was a cool spot but the guy who was managing the scar lounge came over he's like oh I heard you talking about Bitcoin and then he started telling us all about how he had this like high frequency trading bot running USC

and all this shit and like he's like USBC is much safer than Bitcoin and all that and like I like I can't I don't have the mental capacity to engage with strangers that tell me stupid shit like that. But like, that's still happening. Like, it's, it's not quite the Uber driver with the Shiba-enu, but it's still in that direction.

And I think it goes to that same comment about, like, you know, as long as it's the crypto.com arena, like, there's not enough blood in the streets still, right? And so I think we're moving there. There's no telling right now how deep this shithole goes with all of the leverage that all the different exchanges have and like you know there's been rumors flying around about just about every single exchange um it is pretty nice that um as somebody who has has worked on non-custodial exchanges for a long time there are no rumors going on about the non-custodial exchanges because it's not possible right um but i i think we still need we still need more pain and we still need that guy who's

got some kind of a bot running his USC to have lost all his money. And then we'll be bullish, right? So I think we're moving that right direction, but we're not quite there yet. And it sucks that so many people have to lose all their money

to get there. But you reap what you sow. You play stupid games. You win stupid prizes. Would it make you bullish if you wore like a Bitcoin shirt in the street and somebody screamed at you and told you you're a scammer or something?

Well, I think what, so what happens now, like we, we went into this place, we start talking to this guy who had the one hit wonder, and then he's like, oh, you guys are in crypto. We should talk to this other guy because he's super into crypto. No, like we're not, we're not into crypto. I think we need to get to the point where that Bitcoin is dead thing, like people, all the people who see Bitcoin and Crypto is the same thing, see enough actual things die in crypto, and then transfer that to Bitcoin is dead. Because, yeah, like, you meet strangers in public, and they start telling you about some stupid shit that makes no sense.

Like, we're not ready to go up as long as that's still happening at scale, right? So we need to get to a point where, as was previously mentioned, when you meet somebody and you tell them you're in Bitcoin, they say, oh, I'm so sorry for you. I heard it was dead. You know what I mean? Oh, is that still working? Hey, right? So the, and maybe like we're in L.A. right now, there's probably actually a lot of bullshit crypto stuff going on. here. And the same guy who was talking about USDC and all this stuff was trying to sell me some

very expensive cigars. And he's like, well, you're in crypto. You can afford it. So as long as that sentiment is out there of like the idea that there's just like all these like autistic geniuses that are making billions of dollars out of nothing. You know, we're probably not ready for a real bull run. I think we're going to have to get to the point where everybody thinks we're broke. Yes. And at that point, you know, there'll be a bottom. None of us will notice the bottom. It's almost impossible to notice the bottom.

But when it happens, you know, it's going to turn from yeah, let me tell you about my cousin who made so much money on this thing to, oh, I'm so sorry. I mean,

I mean, just to see across the panel here, how many of you have gotten messages that are something along the lines of, are you okay? Like, has anybody gotten those yet? My grandma was like, hey, I heard Bitcoin is dead. Or, you know, Bitcoin is really, really down. Like, you good? And I was like, yeah, grandma, I'm doing great.

I'm buying more. Yeah. What about you, Tristan? Have you gotten any probing? No, most of the people in my, family that I try to convince don't really like listen to me. And all my other friends just know of my conviction level so they don't bother anyway. So it's a win-win, I guess. It's not a symptom of their perception. It's just they know. They know if they're going to bring it up. They're going to get a 20-minute

lecture on why they're stupid. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I won't even ask Dave because I know that anybody that he talks to will will not be asking you. Yeah. So my Like my whole circle, like every acquaintance that I, everyone that I've ever met like more than three times is a Bitcoiner at this point pretty much. So they're all like, I get the questions of like, hey, do you think it's going to go up soon? Or hey, should I buy more from the smart ones? But yeah, like the answer is like, yeah, I was just in L.A. recording a podcast in the Beverly Hills four seasons. you know things are fine.

Oh man. Yeah, it's um, it, it, as you said, it's impossible to ever really like nobody knows it's the bottom when it's the bottom. Um, and we shall see I, as much as it would be mildly nice to see Bitcoin start to, you know, do some sideways shop and start to recover. you're I I if that happened I would have a feeling in the pit of my stomach that we we didn't experience enough pain like if if you know it would it would feel a little bit like the bull run this time I felt like it the amount of upside wasn't justified but there was or the the amount of

upside wasn't high enough given the value I perceived Bitcoin to have however there was so much bullshit happening in the space, it, like, it kind of had to drop. So I'm, I'm, again, nobody knows. But when, when the sentiment, again, I think one of your best, uh, chats that you had was we were talking about the how high it would go. And you're like, well, everybody seems pretty confident that it's going to hit $100,000. So that's probably not going to happen. I mean, whatever everybody thinks is going to happen inevitably doesn't.

But I always get these moments of everybody thinks this thing is going to happen. So I think the opposite is going to happen. And then I start thinking, well, what if everybody secretly thinks that the opposite of what's going to happen is going to happen? And then you get into this like second guessing inception, you know, trying to speculate what's going to happen. And it's just. I can picture that post that you post in your head with that lady. She's like, maybe I should be the contrary. You know, it's like, well, if everyone thinks this,

then I think the opposite. Yeah. And everyone else thinks. Yeah, no, I, yeah, it's crazy. If every, that's the interesting thing. If everyone took my previous advice, like, maybe we should just listen to Dave, then it probably wouldn't work.

Nobody listened to Dave. Yeah, but I think, yeah, I think we're still in this area where, it is kind of contrarian in the Bitcoin community to say that we might have like everybody's kind of like hey when do you think the bear market will be over you know what I mean and like honestly if we had five years of $3,000 Bitcoin I would be great with that like I would buy so many Bitcoins in those five years I would do everything that I could to like I might actually start selling my chairs you know what I mean like so far I'm long on chairs but like I might go short on chairs if we had like a long-term

sustained bare market like that. And it yeah, it kind of comes back to the same point that I was making. It's like there's not enough pain. And we're starting to see a lot of pain. And it's kind of, as I was saying, there's a lot of I told you so is that work right now really well

because all the people who didn't do the things that we said that they should do are getting hit in exactly the way that we said they would get hit. And that's nice. But like there's still, like pain to be had from within the Bitcoin community. And what's going on right now, I think, is a little different from the previous bear markets in that a lot of the previous ones were driven by sentiment and sort of marketing and news and all this stuff. And a lot of the downward

pressure that's happening on the price right now, I think is happening not because of sentiment, not because people are being convinced to sell their Bitcoin. It's happening because either people are losing all their Bitcoin and whoever had their Bitcoin is being forced to sell them or people are in a position with their loans. You know, Peter McCormick and his Aston Martin genius move on the BlockFi thing where it's like, yeah, the BlockFi interest pays for the whole thing. People are in spots where because we're in this bear market, everyone in the industry is in a crunch in terms of, you know, there's not enough, there's not as much money to go

around for, you know, I'm sure you felt this been, like there's not as much money to go around for sponsorship dollars. there's not as much money to go around for for building and the entire industry, much like the whole tech sector is feeling a bit of a crunch right now. And that crunch probably needs to continue for a little bit longer. And the pain has to get from the shit corners to the bit corners. And like we're not going to escape. And like I've sold more bitcoins than I wanted to in the last couple months.

And I know that that's true for a lot of people, because you just, you know, you have expenses, you need to pay for things. If you're all in on Bitcoin, that's your only choice is you've got to sell the Bitcoin. So I think we're probably not going to see a five-year bear market, but we're getting close to a point where maybe the pain is enough. Yeah, maybe we see Chopp for a while.

I mean, who knows, obviously. It is kind of interesting, you know, obviously the macro economic landscape. You know, we're entering a depression recession. You know, it is going to be interesting how Bitcoin holds up. But, yeah, the lower goes, I just see it as a great opportunity. So, yeah, I'm with you on that one. I can feel it in even just like, you know, the workshop that I hosted. Like people aren't super keen on buying a ticket to a workshop to like purchase a device

and learn how to use it. They want to save their sats. People aren't super keen on really, you know, purchasing a lot of things right now. And this kind of goes back to Dave's point about, you know, as a Bitcoin business owner, you have to have a good reason that people are going to part with their sats, particularly when their sats buy less stuff at this moment in time. And so there's this kind of mix of like, you know, if you're, you're all in on Bitcoin, living on Bitcoin. It's harder to get people to purchase stuff with their Bitcoin of what you

offer. And on top of that, the Fed fucked us all by printing a ton of money and then afterwards jacking interest rates. So everything's way more expensive than it used to be. So it's like you're getting triple teams. And, and, you know, that's what it is. And I think, again, like, I've felt it. Dave just said he's felt it. All of us have felt it. And we're going to feel it a bit more. So all you can do is, you know, try and cut expenses, try and find good ways to earn money in the in-term and just spend less than you earn and stack the best that you can

is kind of where I'm at. Stay humble, stack stats, right? So, like a bit of a side point to the original point of the show, though, I feel like it's actually a very good sign that Ben feels like he's been triple teamed and is therefore staying in a shitty motel. Like what I'm saying is like the paint hats. Eating ramen. Maybe like it's starting to get it to the bit corners for sure.

Maybe we maybe we just need to wait until everyone's in a shitty motel. Yeah. Yeah. Because I did I did get put up in a nice one for the conference. So so when the conference is like, we're not we're not putting you anywhere. then maybe that's... Wait, wait a minute. Did they pay for your hotel?

Because they did not pay for mine. I don't know what you're talking about. What hotel? Gentlemen, okay, I'm going to start to round things out. I appreciate you all being here. What I'd like to do at the end here is we'll just do a quick round of final thoughts and recommendations. So in terms of a recommendation, I would just,

say anything that you think will be useful for people either in general or at the specific time. It could be, you know, an article, a video, a book, an app that you've used, a device that you've used, a personal experience, some sort of guidance that you have, really anything, just some sort of a recommendation that might be useful to Bitcoiners in general. So in terms of final thoughts, I don't know, where we're at right now, I'm just, I'm happy. that there's more of a focus on self-custody. And if you're watching this and you haven't really gone down that rabbit hole, it's honestly, if you have the technical prowess to own a smartphone, you're probably going to be fine.

You can probably figure it out. So, yeah, dive down that rabbit hole. Learn how to set up a Bitcoin wallet. Go from there. Start looking into what device might be good for long-term storage. There's a lot of great options. I am partial to the cold card, but whatever you end up with will probably be better than leaving it with somebody else. And in terms of recommendations, I will say, I mean, basically what I've been chatting about.

I've been tweeting out a video today that I made called How to Self-Custody or Bitcoin. So just hit my Twitter feed and look for that. It's in there. And that will help you. it doesn't pertain to you, share it to somebody who it does pertain to and get them on the right track. So I'll leave that there. But let's rotate to D. Any final thoughts? Recommendation. Yeah. Final thoughts. You know, like I said earlier, Bitcoin is historically very cheap. I think it's, you know, anywhere here and lower is great time to buy. You know, I'm not going to say,

hey, buy now and get a loan and, you know, throw everything in. But, you know, if you just work hard and potentially get a, you know, maybe not even a second job, but if you're willing to hustle, I think it's going to bay off, right? The people that stick around and the bear markets definitely benefit the most. So, you know, you might feel a little emotionally drained or sad that, you know, your quote-unquote wealth is depreciating. But I can tell you long term, especially with these panelists here, they can vouch and say it's going to, We're going to go out the other side of the tunnel. You know, there's lay at the end of the tunnel.

And, you know, just keep stacking stats, stay humble. You know, if you're, you know, a shill for coin kite, we have a Black Friday sale going on next Friday, November 25th. We got, you know, up to 25% off all of our products. So, hey, if you want to, you know, spend some stats, create that circular economy going. But, you know, save some money. We do have some sales going on. And we encourage other companies to, you know, talk to us. And we can even bring on some of your products onto the website as well.

So, yeah. Awesome. I love it. All right. Tristan, you're up. Final thoughts? Recommendations. Yeah.

I mean, recommendations. You should definitely check out my book, Bitcoin and Beef. I talk a lot about these principles that we discussed here today. So that was exciting. I mean, self-cost, accountability, responsibility, low-time preference. These are the issues with everybody in our society, not just in business. coin and shit coin. So yeah, get out there, learn new skills and start thinking all multi-year timeframes instead of by the day and by the week. And no one feels bad for you. We all have a

lower net worth now and some people lost a lot of money, but what are you going to take away from that lesson and how is it going to make you better going forward? And how are you going to be able to stack more stats in this fantastic opportunity we have, especially today? I mean, start dog sitting. It's like 30, 40 bucks a day. Rover, there's apps. You can do anything now to just make a small amount of money and that will increase your position and maybe these losses you sustained won't look so bad in two to five years. So don't be afraid to try new things. That's basically what it comes down to and take accountability. Damn, that's solid advice. Suck it up and Figure it out.

Good one. I like that. Awesome. Dave, you're up. I have two pieces of advice. One of them is something that, as I was saying,

we were at this cigar bar earlier, and this guy that we were talking to, the guy with the one hit wonder, his friend was there, and he gave some really awesome advice. He was like, what the fuck are you guys doing? Why don't you just sell cocaine?

honestly I would recommend everyone sell cocaine and use the proceeds buy as much Bitcoin as possible point number two wait everyone's going to have to wait one sec hi I'm madex I'm Space Bowl I'm the creative director of Bull Bitcoin I'm hijacking this show for some tips this is a it's a shameless self-shill I think the only thing that has a possibility of outperforming Bitcoin over the next little while is my own artistic creations.

I live very, very, very fast. And I don't know how long I'm going to be alive. So you guys got good odds on that art just 10-Xing from those moments. And then also, obviously, the stuff's getting better and better day over day. And it's been a pleasure just overhearing this whole show occurring. And Ben, appreciate what you do. It was great hearing you speak live. I love the way you delivered fuck you messages so fantastically subtly to everyone that was there in the crowd

so that's my advice to anyone watching. If you don't know who I am like you better just catch up and go check out what I'm up to and also obviously full Bitcoin in Canada and join the mission. Dude, I love it and we got

to get you actually on the show so we'll figure that out for Yeah, first time appearance and I'll be I can talk a lot. I can really, really talk. So I'll be back and hopefully I'll have more good advice, but I don't think it's going to get better than acquiring some Midex art. I love it.

I love the show. I accept it for it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, and the cocaine advice was pretty good too. I mean, this guy, what Dave missed is the guy was like, man, you guys are just, you're just classic example of modern pussies. You're selling Bitcoin. Why don't you just sell cocaine?

You're all cowards. I got to give you a shout out because so now I've got somebody on from CoinCite and I've got Maidix on. This is my cold card. This is my cold card case. Nice. And that is some MaidX art right there. That's a good one too.

That's the free men don't ask special right there. And I got that as a butcher block. right now, which is pretty exciting. Yeah, it's pretty dope. And it was Crypto Cloaks printed this one. So I shared them for making it. But, yeah, solid. This is my favorite cold card case, for sure.

Yeah, I probably buy, I buy more open dimes than probably anyone else. And I buy more sauna hats from Coin Kite than I think anyone else. Nice. Every time I'm ordering now, I'm throwing in a bunch of sauna hats. So if you, A, if you don't know what a sauna hat is, you better figure that out. And B, if you're going to buy a sauna, once you understand how important it is to have a sauna hat, you got to go to coin kite and you got to buy one of the sauna hats and put it to good use. You know, it keeps your head hot when you're in the sauna and it keeps your head hot when you're in the cold.

That's fantastic. Excellent advice. I think the best advice we've ever had on this show. apparently selling cocaine is the way to go and top it off with some arts. Oh, yeah. Fantastic. Gentlemen, I have to thank you all very much, including our special guests, Maidex, aka Space Bowl, on Twitter.

Follow them all. They're all linked. Well, MaidX isn't linked, but I will add your link in the show notes down below, but at Space Bowl until I get to that. Gentlemen, I appreciate it. I will be chatting to you all again soon. And yeah, thanks for being on the show. You're all welcome back anytime.

It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thanks, love, man. It's been my pleasure. Thanks, guys. See you later. All right. Everybody, thank you for being part of the show,

including special guest, Medex, who I legit did not know he was sitting beside Dave just then. But there he is. So I don't know if that's his first appearance actually showing his face. It may have been. So that's kind of exciting. Also, I had a creases on, and it was his first time showing his face on this show ever, too. So maybe we'll go for a run of the first time people doxing themselves on the show.

Nonetheless, I hope you guys have had a great time here. Again, I appreciate all of you coming in and joining the show. If you haven't already, like, subscribe, share, all those things. super important they really do help get the show in front of more eyeballs of course you can hit up the sponsor down below to help the show in another way if you're looking for some handholding around anything self-custody in particular a lot of people tend to need but really anything Bitcoin you can book me for one-on-ones on my website which is btcsessions.ca. I do do workshops of course but it just depends on where I happen to be

in lieu of that, again, you can get one-on-ones with me there. And then finally, if you really liked what you saw, you can always drop me a Bitcoin tip at my strike page. That is strike. Dot me slash BTC sessions. Head there. Type in any amount you want. Hit the tip button. You'll see a lightning invoice or if you tap to the right, a regular Bitcoin QR code. With that, I am out.

Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening wherever you may be. See you guys next time for your daily session. Bitcoin.