BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Canadian BTC Pod, John Fakhoury ep244

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

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everybody. I'm here live in quasi Jurassic Park, I suppose. I'm in the jungle in Costa Rica right now. Still doing the show. I'm still here. A day early because there's some travel stuff happening next tomorrow. So all the gentlemen today were kind enough to

rearrange their very busy schedules and come join me for the beverage on a Thursday evening on St. Patrick. Day of all days, the most green surrounding I could imagine. And we're gonna get bullish. We're gonna talk about what's going on, what we're excited about.

Of course, this is live. Anything can happen in the jungle, so I deferred to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live! Do it live! I can, I'll write it and we'll do it live.

The fucking thing sucks! If you haven't already, like, subscribe. share all those things super super important they really do help the show so please do them and thank you for all of you that have been and without further ado i am ben with the btc sessions this is your daily session all right before we dive into the panel uh let's take a look at where we are in the market right now this is the bitbo dot io dashboard we're sitting at 40 900 u s dollars per coin a single U.S. dollar will pick you up 2,445 sats. Let's see, 90.4.1% of all Bitcoin have been mined.

In terms of fees, you're looking at seven sats per byte for next block. Anything beyond that, one set per byte will do you. It'll be just fine. Shout out to sponsors of the show, shakepay.com. If you're stacking stats in Canada, this is a super easy way to do it. E-transfers for deposits. No deposit fees, by the way, or withdrawal fees. They cover the mining fee.

Thin spread, super easy to use. Honestly, the app is just a dream. And if you use the link down below, if you buy your first 100 bucks or the Bitcoin there, they will give you $30 for free. You get the same deal if you refer your other friends. And then you can shake your phone every single day for free SATs. They also have their Satsback Visa card. I use that on the regular.

And spoiler alert over this next week, there's something. a little exciting. I've got a little, I don't want to say little because it's a pretty fucking sweet giveaway. And ShakePay is going to be a sponsor of that.

So I'm not going to say too much more than that, but it's going to be fucking awesome. And I think a couple Bitcoiners, Canadian bitcoins, maybe Shakers,

will be very, very excited about it. So we shall see. Keep your eyes peeled on Twitter and on the show, there'll be more info on that soon. Anyways, I digress. Letting.com. You can use your Bitcoin for a ton of different services. If you're in a pinch particularly and you need dollars, but you don't want to sell your Bitcoin. You can deposit Bitcoin, get a loan of dollars within 24 hours.

And when you pay back those dollars, you get back the same amount of sats. They also have savings accounts for Bitcoin and USDC. And if you're feeling mega bullish, they've got their B2X offering. Be sure to check them out. Links are down below. Bit refill makes living on Bitcoin easy. I would know. They've got just every gift card your little heart could desire. You can get it in all of the countries. Most of the countries will say you can pay with Bitcoin. Onchain and Lightning Network. You earn sats back as you shop and they have a referral program to help you stack even more sats. So check them out. Keystone, one of my favorite and most used hardware wallets. 100% air-gapped. You never plug it into anything internet connected. It's all offline via QR code. This keeps the keys to your money safe and away from internet connections. Definitely upgrade to the Bitcoin-only firmware. Works beautifully with Blue Wallet, Wasabi, Sparrow, Specter, all that good stuff.

And really, really great in a multi-sig. So check that out for sure. And finally, if you're backing up any important Bitcoin Wall check out the Bill Fottle over at Privacepros.com. You can get that backup into solid steel. Paper does not cut it. Fire damage, water damage, you know all that. I've heard horror stories.

So get yourself some peace of mind. Put it in steel. This is how I back up all my shit. So check them out, Privacyprose.com. Am I rambling, guys? I got to get my friends in here. I got, I got, Len coming back. I got Joey coming back.

I got Father John. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. I think a quick round of intros are in order for anybody that's watching and unfamiliar. Len, how about you take away? Can you let people know who you are, what you do? Before, where's David Wong? I came here to talk to him. Anyway, is David in there yet?

Let's see. Is he hitting the chat? I haven't, well, somebody saying hello to David. I haven't seen him yet. But David, if you're here, let us know. But, Len, let people know who you are. Yes, I'm Len. I'm one half of the Canadian Bicorners.

We do podcasts twice a week once is one is going to be our flagship show we do on Mondays. And we also do an interview. We tend to release. So we tend to do it live on Wednesdays. So check us out. You could find us anywhere on YouTube or anywhere you listen to your podcast. Take it away, Julia. You know better than I.

Oh, that's it, man. That's great. Yeah, we stream Monday and Wednesday. And Len is selling himself a little short. He's been doing a daily equity update on the miners. So, yeah, man, a lot of stuff. Hope you check us out. And Ben, thanks for having us back, man.

Appreciate it. Yeah, man. I'm glad to have you guys. And actually, Len, I just clued in. We're doing this a day early. David Wong is going to be very sad and lonely tomorrow night. He's going to be sitting there hours early. He's going to be looking for the stream.

Where's the event? I don't see it. It's not popping up. He's going to be sitting at home alone and sad that he can't get bullish with us on a Friday night. I'm sorry. He'll probably check back. He'll probably see this. But David, I'm very sorry.

I should have. You got to let me let's link up on signal or something. I got to shoot you a DM and let you know when schedule changes. But John, we're going to pass it to you. Can you let people know who are unfamiliar? Who are you? What do you do? Oh, God.

Forgettable. I'm Daddy John, the two kids. I'm Father John to the first. rest of the Bitcoin community. Those of you who've been shit-coining, you know exactly who I am because you've been DMing me your confession. So, no, I kid. Yeah, man, I'm just a, I'm a Bitcoin dad, Bitcoin Adler, Bitcoin investor.

I mean, when I say Bitcoin investors, it's not because I'm trading. I'm just trying to invest in Bitcoin-related companies the best I can. And yeah, just, you know, Ben's buddy. Dude, I, I, I'm glad to have you back. I'm very sad that the last time I was in Miami at the same time as you barely saw each other for a few seconds passing each other on the street I was wiped I was tired from days of debauchery well not even that much debauchery but just like great bitcoinsers but you know are you going to be there this time around yeah

I'll be there man I'll be there the 6 through the 10th I think Wednesday through Sunday so perfect we'll make it happen this time I've bookended you trip I'm I'm I'm fourth to 11th. All right. Let's make it happen. Your time is you. So yeah, awesome, man. Let's do it. Well, let's get this thing rolling. Those that are watching that are unfamiliar.

This is, why are we bullish? Very simple. Everybody here has come with a reason why they're feeling bullish this week, this month, whatever the time frame may be. And they get their chance to rant about it. So basically, we go by the three R's. Somebody's going to give a reason why they're bullish. Next, we're all going to riff on that reason together.

And then third, we're going to rotate to the next person until we all get a chance. So as is tradition, I'm going to get us started off to get the ball rolling to break the ice. And so my reason for being bullish this week is that Bitcoin is like water. And whatever obstacles are presented to it, whatever gets in its way, it just flows around. And we're seeing that a lot right now with. with privacy related stuff. And so many of you will be familiar with the trucker protest that happened in Canada recently. And so with part of that, there was a multi-sig used in holding some of those funds.

And during the course of that, the multi-sig nunchuk, they were sent. a letter by the Ontario Supreme Court. They responded saying basically like, hey, we have no control over anything. We only have email addresses. But in doing so, they said, we only have email addresses for our clients

that choose to provide them for the way that it worked. You could basically port over accounts, not that it was custodial in any way, but like the ex-pubs, you could port those over through multiple, devices. However, in doing so, they realized that even that was a, you know, a pinch point for

some people. And I think this, the, the trucker protests and the response to the trucker protest, you know, showed that even that tiny little pinch point there could in some instances be too much in in when push came to shove particularly with a totalitarian government um you know like it was it it was kind of kind of crazy uh in canada for a little bit and it could it could have feasibly gone further than it did um and in other places it could much easily much more easily go a lot faster than it did in canada and so they realized hey you know like you know the the email address thing. Maybe not great. Maybe we need to offer an alternative. So they tweeted this out. He said, a sneak peek of our redesign to obsolete email logins introducing Jit Koon do. I don't

know. Anyways, self-custody package. No K-YC, no emails, ability to connect to your own full node and everything end-to-end encrypted. Bewater, my friends. And then it says this little screenshot, primary key account. It's a dual purpose key that can be used. used both for account-based authentication and for signing Bitcoin transactions. Primary key account is an account that does not require an associated email address. We strongly recommend enabling passphrases for primary keys. So basically, they're just like trying to route around any singular points of failure where an overbearing government, whatever it may be, somebody could get to that information

and be like, whose email addresses this and we're going to coerce them into getting that information. So that's one thing. This week, I've been covering some stuff on Sparrow wallet. I dropped a tutorial on Monday on Payneems. And Payneems is something that, unfortunately, in setting up the trucker fund, I wish I would have been more familiar with. And again, between that being unfamiliar with Payneems and being unfamiliar with BTC Payson server and being able to implement that, that is 100% my bad. But seeing Sparrow Wallet jump to implement PayNMs and all of these features, they've added linking and sending directly to payment codes, automatically label new BIP 47 receive addresses to identify incoming transactions and allowing link BIP 47 context to be renamed.

Those I'm familiar with Paynems. Basically, it's publicly shareable Bitcoin IDs that don't share. the actual receiving addresses. So in the instance of fundraising, nobody can look at the public Bitcoin ID and associate it with a particular Bitcoin address and then say this person has received Bitcoin. All they can see is the PaynM. And if they choose to, they can connect to the Payne M,

but then they can only send to individual addresses and then see those addresses on the blockchain, but they wouldn't necessarily see all of the other payments. And so that combined with coin join could be an excellent way to obfuscate things. Beyond that, and I'll drop my screen for a second here. So I announced earlier this week, I was previously sponsored by Wasabu Wallet. and you know I use them I like you know I enjoy the interface and everything but it seems that they came under pressure from who knows what particular entities but regardless the decision was made that they will now effectively hire on chain analytics companies to screen coins before they enter coin join, which is incredibly unfortunate.

And from my perspective, I look at that and I think, okay, well, they're screening for something that is perceived to have been illegal to not be able to enter a coin join round. And in the context of what just happened with me and with all Canadians, I am no longer confident that I could use that tool to add, you know, add and basically break the link between, um, coins where they were and who currently owns them. I'm not convinced that given enough pressure, Canada and the, the Bitcoin donations to truckers would have been exempt from that.

So I, I, you know, while I, I respect the people that are trying to work while I respect the, the, the pressure that I'm sure. they're under and basically not being a public facing company unfortunately i suppose this was somewhat inevitable so i i decided that um the the service that i originally uh came on to say hey this is something that you can use is no longer viable for the use case that i see uh and so i broke ties with them but i do want to point out and again, this is open to scrutiny and everything, but I do want to point out in in the topic of Bitcoin is like water, somebody is effectively taking the code base. First of all, they've,

they've taken Wasabi and they've created an alternative coordinator, which is the person who puts together the rounds of coin joints. Okay. Now, there are still criticisms of address, reuse, and stuff like that. But right now, what I want to point out is that somebody saw a problem with the fact that there's a coordinator that has been coerced into preventing certain coins from entering coin joints. And somebody said, all right, well, we'll make a non-public facing coordinator that is harder to clamp down upon.

And so they've done that. And they're calling it Saki wallet. Right now it's just an alternative coordinator that you can connect Wassavi Wallet to. It appears through interactions online. They may be like forking the entire code base and continuing on from there. I don't know. We'll see how it goes. But again, Bitcoin kind of being like water here flowing around those obstacles.

And then finally, previously Jack Dorsey had retweeted or shared something about Wasabi Wallet. And markets by Lilly had. had recommended he'd check out Samurai as well. And then Big Tech Alert, the Twitter bot made note that Jack followed Samurai wallet just like seven hours ago. And yeah, Lily was relatively excited about that. So again, I guess my main point here is that as obstacles are presented, Bitcoin just kind of routes, routes around these. And especially currently, it would appear that one of the biggest obstacles is obtaining privacy.

And I'm very pleased with some of the stuff that I'm seeing. I'm upset about the wasabi thing, but I'm pleased about the response to it and some of the other tools that are being presented. So that's my rant, gentlemen. I'm going to open it up. Anybody that wants to dive in, thoughts on anything, whether or not. be with wasabi, whether it be with, um, with, uh, some, you know, the Payne M stuff or, or the nunchuk stuff, have a matter. Whoever wants to jump in. John, you're the most pious. Why don't you go first?

You know, I, I would probably be the least, I think, value add here. The funny thing is, so I'm trying not to laugh and because obviously is a serious situation. Um, but one of my buddies on Clubhouse, Cortic, who I'm sure many know that have like frequented Clubhouse or Twitter. spaces, he's been like a Bit 47 maximalist. And I just didn't even remember Bit 47. I have to go and look it up. And it was ultimately, if you understand what Sparrow implemented with Paynems, it basically solves, you know, the concerns or kind of adopts what Bit 47 or at least

the cortex maximalism was. So we literally would have bets. Like I would text Joe Carlis and say, I'm like, dude, I think he's about to come up and ask about Bit 47. bet you, you know, whatever. I mean, I've made so much money just betting on him and Bit 47. So, like, right now, man, I got to, like, I obviously am biased on this take and, and I'm also not Canadian.

So I'm going to, like, try to be a deferral here and pray for my Canadian brothers and sisters. I got to ask, has anybody else on this panel tried Payne Ms. yet? No, no, not yet. Dude, you got it. It may have been sent. I was sent, I was sent it from a pain. I've not. not enabled it within Sparrow, but

I'm Cortic who lost a bet to me did send me that. I'm sorry the IRS that I just had to announce that. It's kind of fucking cool. It is really cool. Basically, all you have to do is you can follow somebody and they can follow you and you have like a short ID

like I think mine on on samurai wallet is like Divine Morning 07E or something like that. But somebody gets that information, they can connect to you, you can follow each other. If the person is online, you can send automatically to them without them having to divulge an address to you. You can

generate one. But if you want to be able to send to them while they're offline, you just need to send a small on-chain transaction one time to establish that connection. And that gives you a series of or the ability to generate a segregated set of addresses that that person can receive to without them having to be prompted to send you one. So it's pretty cool. I highly recommend. I do like that. Yeah,

go ahead, then you go first. You're the more technical the two of us. I saw some overarching thoughts about privacy to throw in there. I was going to be really brief. I'm just going to say about projects like this, I absolutely love it because we're dealing with a decent. centralized system here, Bitcoin, and there's a void. Here's a vacuum that needs to be filled.

And people that are able to code, they build a product that fills the void here. And I actually love stuff like this because we're not being spoon-fed stuff from a centralized source. We just are having stuff crowd-fuss, not really crowd-sourced, but crowd-built to fill gaps that exist. And this stuff that really makes me so bullish on Bitcoin. But I'll leave it to you, Well, I just think, like Ben, you mentioned a lot of things there. Some of them are, I think, you know, a long road if we try and unpack them, specifically like the convoy, right, the protest. I think that there's been some sort of loss of perspective on the protest.

I'm thinking specifically in the Bitcoin community about, you know, the legality and that's obviously, you know, caught a few, you know, prominent Bitcoiners off guard. that's one piece of it. But I think the other piece that we're missing as a Bitcoin community, and certainly I think the broader public is missing, is that privacy has become this luxury good in financial systems. And there's some fair reason for that. We don't want a terrorist financing going on underneath the table

and things of that nature, of course. But the default for the individual should be private transactions. And, you know, Bitcoin fills a lot of voids for a lot of people. And one of the, you know, things I would say to the people who don't think they need Bitcoin because their money is, you know, quote unquote, secure or their government is, quote, unquote, you know, legitimate, democratic, first world, whatever. Like, you pick your descriptor. The thing I would say is the void it's going to fill for you at some point is this privacy void,

I think. And, you know, we've seen in the last five years, maybe six years now, I would say since the 2016 campaign in the U.S., we really saw this ramp up, this tendency to cancel. You know, this shoot first, ask questions later on the side of payments and transactional, you know, transactions between people, between corporations, between countries now, which we'll get to later. This is a problem that privacy is going to help solve. It's not to say that people should be allowed to do whatever they want if it's illegal.

You choose the place where you're domiciled, and if something is illegal and you do it, there's a price to pay for that, of course. But this idea that everything needs to be transparent, I think is very clearly incorrect. You know, we've seen in the last little while the damage that transparency can do to a sitting politician, you know, the Pelosi trade account continues to get nuked over and over and over again. I'm waiting for the ghost of Nancy Pelosi's trade history, the remnant account to show up on Twitter. I don't know if that's ever going to happen, but it seems like we're on that road. And so I think people, you know, that privacy thing is something that's going to be a void filled for a lot of people. To your point about water, you're giving the very zen cross-legged, you know, sort of fitting for your backdrop, I guess, this like relaxing rake in the sand doing designs idea of water.

Water is one of the most destructive forces in the universe. If you give water enough time, it will destroy any object in its way. And I think we're starting to see that effect on the US dollar. I think we're starting to see it on the broader petro dollar. I think we're starting to see it on these legacy financial rails. And I think that regardless of, you know, whether you think the water is going to destroy these things in a year or 10 years or 100 years, the only sure thing is that if you give the water enough time, it's going to wear away whatever is in the way of it.

Right. So a very, very good start to the show there, Ben. I really like that comparison a lot. I got to mention that when you're talking about water, or being a destructive force. So I don't have any tattoos, but there's one tattoo that I would get. And I saw this quote

when I was in Chiang Mai in northern Thailand, and I was at a monastery. There are monks walking around. And there was one of those really, I don't know what the trees are called, but they're like basically grow sideways and they're just like these huge. It looks like a little bonsai tree,

but like massive. And they had like these little wooden planks with like nailed on quotes from all the monks. And one of the quotes was constant dripping wears away of the stone. And if I get a tattoo, then it will be one of those trees and then that quote underneath it. Because it's, it's an allegory to low time preference, right? It's an allegory to with enough hard work over enough time, massive change can occur. and the alternative, small bad habits over a long enough time period can wear you down.

And I think it's a great lesson. And I think you're absolutely right. Bitcoin exudes those qualities. It goes around things, but it wears things down. And I think over time right now, as it routes around, great. But that routing will soon become eroding of fiat currency and perhaps some nations. States. Land, do you have any other final thoughts, John, Joey?

Yeah, I mean, I love the, you know, the adaptability conversation, right? Like obviously, Bitcoin continues to ossify. You know, we take forever to do shit that we all agree upon, right? Like Tapper was like a four-year, you know, conversation. Lightning Network, you could argue, is only really taken off recently. I remember hearing about in 2017. I didn't, it didn't make any sense to me. I still, you know, use my visa and MasterCard or American Express.

but like this like idea that like my money is software and that like I can fix problems because it's software it's code and you go back to like understanding that like that's one of the things that makes me I guess to answer the core conversation um to your bullet point like that's really bullish to me this idea like that like smartest people I think in the world sometimes um at least in these matters are working on where I've decided to park you know a sizable amount of my wealth and like that to me is a pretty bullish and powerful thought I don't know what challenges come, but I know that this isn't fully ossified in a way that it couldn't overcome other challenges.

And like, so Bip 47 didn't happen for Quartick and he got it in Sparrow, you know, like through PAYNMS, like, you know, a few years later. So there you go. Yeah, I agree. And there was a question here. I want to answer it before we move on. And also I was going to mention that. So you got PAYNMs in Samurai Wallet and Sparrow.

And I've seen Rumblings of Blue Wallet. I think they're working on it. the background. I'd love to see this everywhere. I think it would be fantastic. Another great tool. But J.C., I did see your question, dude. He said, if I sound X amount of BTC to a payment, won't that exact amount of Bitcoin show up on the blockchain later exposing the public address? So yes, you're correct. It does, like obviously every transaction on Bitcoin is it on the blockchain. It's publicly identifiable. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't give a starting point, for people to begin monitoring.

So think of a fundraiser saying, hey, send us Bitcoin to this static address. There's a single point. Every amount of Bitcoin that goes to that address is now trackable in perpetuity moving forward unless coin joined afterwards. With the Paynem, that is not true because publicly nobody sees the addresses

that are generated and sent to. Could a malicious third party connect to the Paynem and send some sats? Absolutely. But with proper coin joining after receiving Bitcoin, that would then mitigate those issues and you could then move forward with those links having been broken since donation and then coin join. So hopefully that sort of answers.

Yes, you can see it, but it removes some problems there. with that Let's continue on I'm gonna I'm gonna rotate I'm gonna give us a rotation here And Len I believe My topic may may be synergistic with yours So I'm gonna pass it on

By the way everybody in the chat I gotta quickly say Let's let's bring it up David made it Yes David welcome we gave you a shoutout at the start of the show We were worried you weren't gonna get here because it's on a Thursday. It's early. I know you're probably a busy man. You've been,

you know, anticipating the show all week. You don't want to miss it. So I'm very glad that you made it. Welcome to the show, my friend. Hopefully we will continue to give you minimal milligrams of orange pill through the show and they will eventually add up to enough to cure you of your ills. But, Len, I digress. Let's dive to you. What are you bullish about this week, my friend? David showing up. No, no, it's the resiliency of the Bitcoin itself, both the network and the asset. And I'm going to talk a little bit about each of the two. And I first want to talk about the network.

And everybody knows last year we had a big ban from China about banning Bitcoin mining in that country. And it was a big event. And for context, the hash rate was at its highest in May. I think it was May 13th. and it plunged by more than 50% by July. And it's a significant drop in hash rate. And this type of drop and output would just kill just about any industry out there. It's hard to fathom that something could withstand this type of blow and still continue to plug away.

The only thing that could really sustain this, I think you'd have to get government handouts, but this was not needed for Bitcoin. What happened was through that whole endeavor, well, a lot of ASIC machines were just simply redeployed to other areas of the world. then the hash rate recovered. Seven months later, it reached a new all-time high in December. It's such an incredible turnaround. We don't talk about this that much

because it's a huge turnaround from basically getting crushed to being at an all-time high. It's almost like a soccer level type of recovery where a player gets injured with slight contact. They get the magic spray, spray him. And two minutes later, he's back from his broken leg and he's good to go.

It's kind of like, but back to Bitcoin, it's kind of like, you have to understand, This is an incredible amount of hash rate of capital that was deployed just to get things going once again. And even with all that being said, you got to understand that the Bitcoin network didn't just disappear. A lot of money was put into Bitcoin miners, publicly traded Bitcoin miners. And there's a lot of money that's just been flowing into that. And we all, just right now, we have two of them that are over $2 billion in market cap. That's Marathon and Core Scientific.

These are not insignificant numbers. It's a lot of investors. They believe in Bitcoin mining. They're pumping a lot of money into Bitcoin mining companies. That's incredible. And through it all, the network just continues to move on, spitting out 6.25 Bitcoin every 10 minutes on average. And if you want to talk about the network itself being resilient, the last time it went down was nine years ago, 3,293 days ago. It's a long time for a network just to continually go on.

If you want to compare it to other big companies, let's compare to other big companies. That's compared to like two humongous internet giants, Amazon and Google. Amazon had a network outage just this past December, December 2021. Google had three outages in 2022 alone. This is humongous that you had these big companies have outages within a past year or two. Bitcoin nine years without going down. That is incredible. But not only that, the acid itself.

Bitcoin is an acid. It survived the block size, the block war. where, you know, essentially thrashed a competition. And this type of civil war can't overlook this. It would cripple or crush any other asset, but not Bitcoin. The community just got stronger. We just got more tight in it. And if you want to compare to other things, compared to like gold, for instance, historically

the best place to hold vast amounts of wealth. But Bitcoin's simply crushed it. Since it's come live in January 2009, it's made gold an unattractive object to invest in. Bitcoin itself is just proving itself. over and over again. And even if you want to compare it against the U.S. dollar, and it's like the most clearly the best of most desired currency out there, at least for the time being. But Bitcoin crushes it too on a one-to-one basis. So saleability cross-time, Bitcoin wins. Sailability cross-base, Bitcoin wins. Just continues. And if you want to talk about a growing

in value, it's doing so without even being given love from the SEC. We're waiting for the SEC to approve one spot Bitcoin ETF. Where is it? But Still, it hasn't been given it, but still the price goes up. And companies like Apple, that they have these massive war chest that would probably rival a lot of Western nations. They haven't even put one penny in that we understand into Bitcoin. Imagine when they do. What's the price of Bitcoin going to do?

It's going to go absolutely nuts. And we also had people like Elon Musk flip-flopping almost on a daily basis about Bitcoin. One day he's pro, one day he's con. Still, Bitcoin dealt with it. Also, we had a recent executive order did absolutely nothing to Bitcoin the asset, absolutely nothing. And yesterday we had a rate hike by the Federal Reserve. What happened?

The price of Bitcoin went up. That's just incredible. So in the end, I'm just so bullish in Bitcoin to network, Bitcoin the asset, so happy and I'm invested in it. And I want to see what's going to be coming on with this thing going on board. So much positive energy. I love it. Dude, okay, two things I've got to say.

One, imagine the block size war, but effectively rolled out on Google. And imagine all of a sudden there's two companies both claiming to be Google. And if you're using one Google, you can't interact with a user on the other Google. How fucked would that company be? And Bitcoin was just kind of like, eh, just kept on rolling. Like, it was stressful at the time. But at the end, it effectively did nothing to Bitcoin. And that's incredible.

And the other thing I wanted to mention is, Yuchi, wanted to know if you're bullish on Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, especially after today, watching her go on and on. I was commenting. It looks like she was talking to somebody. I forget from which company, but it was funny to see every question she asked. She kept interrupting the guy when he provided an answer.

Her high cheekbones just kept in lower and lower with every question. It was incredible. It was a great. By the way, guys, David Wong says that Bitcoin, needs electric to stay electricity to stay alive. If there was a worldwide blackout, the network will

crumble down. Will crumble? Will crumble? Will crumble? Anyways, electricity gone. Bitcoin's done. Shit. Shows all that. As soon as one network, sorry, one node goes back online and the network continues. There's two types of people in this world. There's the bitcoiners

and there's a no-cointers like David Wong. Sooner later, he's going to switch over to be a big-pointer, but for the time being, he's a no-coiner. thing about it is it's amazing to me that he's worried about this one thing it's kind of like your house is burr oh no we lost his audio yeah we lost your audio john we lost your audio he's ripping though that's probably a good point we can't he was can he can't he was i don't think he can hear us i think we're he's like he's very very it's very like it's okay man he's animated i think you're he's i hear all narrate for him fuck david david

Why don't you get it? Fuck, David. It is true, though. It's always the same points from like the bogus anti-Bitcoin crowd. Like, okay, listen, what if there's a serious like EMP attack and a worldwide blackout? You know, what are you going to do if a comet hits the earth? Like, if a comet hits the earth, okay, man, like maybe it's a failed experiment. But I can have a lot more things to worry about if a comet comes crashing down, you know, onto Africa or onto Canada or like it's just, come on, man.

Give me a break with this. same garbage all the time. To your point line, okay? Strength in simplicity, right? The reason that you're seeing now the sort of traditional financial system wobble a bit is because of the shell game that's being played constantly in derivatives markets, in energy markets, in commodities markets, you know, I'm thinking specifically about metals and things like the food commodities, wheat and whatnot.

These paper markets all just add vectors for failure, vectors for attack. And at the current moment, we're seeing vectors for loss of confidence in the broader system. And Bitcoin doesn't have that problem. It only does so much, right? The base, like the layer one blockchain on Bitcoin does almost nothing. It just runs that 6.25, the block reward. It verifies. It difficulty adjust.

That's it. That's the cocktail, right? It's easy, but it works. And one thing we didn't try and do, unlike, you know, the U.S. Fed and, you know, the U.S. the White House, unlike Sussex here in Canada, unlike, you know, name your parliamentarian, president, prime minister abroad, name your Web3 scam, rugpole token. All we did was make sure the thing was going to keep working and that would be invulnerable to the whims of the moment. And we fucking got it. We got it. And especially as whims of the moment is the only thing

driving all other policy in all other disciplines all over the world. How's that going for you guys. I would say not that good. And so I love this man. I think it's a great point. It's just simple and it It's just simple and it works. John, come back. Wait, you're muted right now. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I won't. How much of that, how much of that Vince Vaughn like rant did you hear before? You started and then like it caught almost that you were like, the funny thing about it is and then it was silent. That's what's great. That was it. Everything after that wasn't actually funny. But I think you may have made the point for me, but it just was telling to me that that's where, like, dude's head was at.

It was just like, his house is burning down and he's, like, worried about where the keys to the car are. He's only worried about your keys to your car, though. He doesn't care. He only cares about your Bitcoin failing when his house is on fire. It's crazy. You need ammo. You need booze.

You need pencils, man, at that point. Like, nothing matters at that point. You know, anywho, yeah, I like Lynn's point about the hash rate. blip because that's really what it allowed it to, right? Like everybody that was that you've talked to about buying Bitcoin that is bitter that hasn't bought Bitcoin was in your text messages that day. Oh my God, trying to ban mining.

Right. Like everybody got a text message or a tweet or a DM or whatever and a ha ha. And the reality is nothing happened to the network, which basically gives me some consideration that it's maybe either over-securitized or like it's reached escape velocity. Like this thing can't be attacked anymore in any real significant way. Right. Like so yeah, I was, I share in that.

Bullishness, Ben. And then I also share him bullishness because, like, there are people like David Wong right now. And I don't know who David Wong is. I don't know who David Wong is. He sounds like a really nice guy. Can I tell you about him? He's, he literally. Please don't.

No, you'll love this because he, he literally cannot miss a Why Are We Bullish show. He's here every Friday. I've seen, I've seen, I've seen him before. But I mean, like, I don't know him personally. Yeah, hours in advance, he'll be in the chat. Well, the thing about it, though, is just like right now, as David Wong speaks, like, we still have the access to the same set of facts. I have the same ability to, like, read about Bitcoin that he does.

And yet, like, he's letting me buy his family's stake of Bitcoin right now, right? Like, this will have generational impacts. It's a sad thing, but it's true, right? Father John isn't always pious. Like, the take on this is that this is a reality. Like, these decisions have significant takes, right? Like, you know, I spoke to Michael Saylor a few weeks ago at the mining conference in Austin. And like one of the takeaways I got was like, you know, he's a firm belief that Bitcoin mining stocks are doing what they're doing in a large part because the reality is people want to buy Bitcoin but can't for whatever reason.

When I say people, I mean institutional players, offices that can buy the equity exposure, but cannot buy Bitcoin for a multitude of reasons. Charters and approvals and all types of things, right, that you're just limiting to them and being able to do so. And so like seeing the volumes you see in these Bitcoin miners to me is a checkmark in the reality of like the world accepting this no longer as some taboo asset. And so like when I look at the hash rate blips, when I look at the like, you know, the Elon Twitter storms, when I look at all those things that you highlight, like they all to me seem, or I agree with the indication. It's just like look what that what happens, you know, like Bitcoin becomes more and more

resilient every time it takes an attack and it ultimately doesn't kill it, right? For some people, those become chinks in the armor. For some thoughts, ideas, movements becomes chink in the armor. And for Bitcoin, it becomes a strengthening factor, right? Like there's a scene, I talked to you about this before, Ben, there's a scene from like one of the Harry Potter movies, one of the later ones when they're in the vault and they keep touching the gold. And by the more the gold they touch, the more it multiplies and becomes more and more difficult. And I feel like that's what the Bitcoin network effect is ultimately become. Like it has just become like the more you try to attack it, the more powerful that it becomes in that very same, you know, function that that scene from Harry Potter lays up.

But anyhow, David Wong, your comment was so bad. literally took out my goddamn on it. It is. Okay, the other thing, like, so you guys both mentioned hash rate. It's,

it's, I think it's so bullish. And we talk about this sometimes on our show. Like, the price of Bitcoin used to be a function of hash or, or vice versa, right? Hash would catch up with the price.

I think you're coming into now probably two, you're probably two years out from the, the first having when the, the price of the coin is not going to matter. Even when the block reward drops, even if more miners are coming online, the miners are going to be willing for the first time ever, I think, because of the cheap money environment and because of the promise of the network, they're going to be willing to operate at a loss until they can deploy more capital or find cheaper power or whatever. And the hash rate is just going to continue to rip. And I think that next halving is going to be insane as far as hash pump. I don't know if you guys agree, but I think to me, the thing that for all the different negative talking points about Bitcoin,

of which there are many. We all know this. You never hear anyone attack the conviction of the people who have CAPEX deployed onto the network as miners. And the way that they'll do anything in their power to deploy that CAPX and then not sell the asset for which the CAPX is running. This is unparalleled. In commodities markets, in financial markets,

it's unparalleled, this sort of thing. And I think it's a problem that these guys have their, you know, like TadFi guys have a hard time wrapping their head around because that's a sort of a mercenary game. Those guys have no loyalty to anything, not to the company they work for, not to the stocks they invest in. And if you believe some of these stories from Golden Sacks Elevator, Twitter account, not to their wives or families either. And so this lack of loyalty is prevalent all over the traditional finance world. And it's something that they just can't, they cannot cut, you know, they can't get the angle on Bitcoin in that regard.

And I think that that conviction is really going to propel us forward in a way that they're not ready for, honestly. It's interesting because I think this past having was the first time that we've seen a significant decrease in the impact that the having itself has on the price of Bitcoin. And we're shifting. And early on, obviously it was a big deal. Like the percentage of Bitcoin coming. onto the network as a whole in the early havings from, you know, 50 to 25, from 25 to 12, from, you know, that, that was a much bigger deal as a percentage of the issuance. And now that, that, you know, 90 plus percent has been issued and we're, you know,

seeing drops from 12 and a half to 6.25 and the next, you know, it's less and less percentage of the coins. It's not having a huge impact. And the impact that is felt is what percentage of the globe actually understands Bitcoin? And that's the only thing that's going to matter moving forward because those tiny constraints on forward moving issuance are not really going to matter that much anymore. It's just how many people actually understand Bitcoin. And things can happen quickly. especially in the context of 7.9% CPI prints, 10% you know,

PPI, is that the right indicator that I'm talking about, right? Like in the context of stuff like that, in the country that is the world reserve currency, that's kind of a big fucking deal. And it's going to be easier and easier for people to understand over time that having tinkerers at the top that are trying to push buttons and pull levers is a lot less reliable than just knowing how it works. I think that's kind of the takeaway here. I like that. I'll just add one thing. Defiant is in the chat saying, I bet your downloads are up. It's true. You can see the metrics, you know, without going into gory details,

you can see where the interest in Bitcoin is based on the topics you talk about on podcast, videos, whatever. And it's clear that there's a growing interest in things like, what the hell is UBI? Why should I care about it? What is Bitcoin privacy? Why should I care about it? What companies can I invest in to get exposure to Bitcoin? If I can't buy Bitcoin, why should I do that? The metrics are all over the place. I would, you know, I'm surprised I haven't seen any good tweets in the last little while about the Google search trends for Bitcoin. I bet you they're, you know, climbing day by day too. But, uh, and FTs fell up a fucking cliff. Of course. Ben, Ben, what a surprise.

Who could have seen it coming? The best thing is that the richest guys in the world, like I remember watching the NBA dunk contest a few weeks ago, one of the worst ones ever, by the way. I can't believe I spent the whole time sitting there watching it. But one of the guys, you know, of all the people who could find a way to display an NFT, with all the resources available to them,

all the NFT people were probably lining up to give them their best, the only thing this guy could do with his NFT, one of the contestants, was hang it on a phone around his neck and display it for a camera. or they had to zoom in real close to see the NFT. And even then, like, it didn't have the whatever the hash associated with it or whatever they do over there in the NFT world.

Like, it's just garbage. It's insane, man. I can't believe people fell for this. And so, you know, to your point there, Father John, about, you know, Wong, there's still Wong's out there. You're buying his family share of Bitcoin. Think about all the people buying JPEGs who can't believe that the thing, you know, these things have gone to zero and they're blaming like the price of Ethereum, the price of

Bitcoin, the executive order, whatever. right? Really, these people don't remember the ICO boom and bust. You know, you're the 2020 to 2024 cycle boom and bust. It's you guys now. You're not going to come back. There isn't going to be another NFT cycle, an empty bull market. It's done. It's finished. And I hope they realize it before it's too late, honestly. I saw a perfect metaphor. I don't even know if it would count as a metaphor, but I was walking and I was previous to being here, I was in Tamarindo on the coast and I was walking down the street and there is literally like where like the the clubs and stuff just like dump their fucking garbage and shit everywhere all over you know it's still like

I don't want to I don't want to show on tamarindo it was very very nice but like this one particular spot there's literally just like piles of garbage and on the side of one of the side of one of the trash bins that was like plastered and like whatever like decrepit like crusty discussing. There was a dinner hour descriptions. I love this. There was a yeah, there was a sticker encrusted with like what last night's vomit. And it was a board a yacht club like NFT on the side of this trash bin. I literally took a picture of it.

I was like, that's perfect. That's exactly what I wanted to see right now because it's the perfect. example of exactly what's happening. It was great. I'm going to end with that. We're going to round it out and we're going to move and rotate. Everybody, thank you in the chat. Keep the comments coming.

Really good to see Defiant, Ramelle, Yochi, Edgar, everybody in the chat. David, obviously. Global nonsense. Guys, thank you for being here. Defiant says what if David Wong is a Max Kaiser burner account? Hey, you're funny. You can get some love, man.

I love it. Well, let's keep it rolling. John, we're jumping to you. I'm going to let you have your rant. What are you bullish about? What's excited? What's top of mind? I mean, I guess I share a lot of the sentiment that Len laid out.

It's just like, you know, like I still, as I was walking into the office and thinking about the podcast and just like wanting to answer the question, I thought to myself, like, what am I bullish about? I basically think about Bitcoin, what I thought about it before, all those stories lend me out. And so like it just doesn't matter to me. And then I also, this is going to get me a lot of like I realize how little, myself included. So before you guys, I'll jump me, Bitcoin is actually truly understand Bitcoin and how much they grok it nonetheless. And so there are a bunch of people that barely understand what they own and know enough to know that they

should never part with it. Right. And so, you know, I get a little nervous because I feel like people aren't putting themselves in position depending on leverage, depending on like how comfortable they are with their lifestyles or whatever to not ultimately protect themselves to keep Bitcoin and like a real sour like macro economic like headwind. But generally I'm just like wow, man, you know, I feel this all the thing. Like you barely understand shit, but at least you know to huddle it. So that makes me really, really bullish even though I'm sure I just insulted a bunch of people in the process. But no, man, like you highlighted what I was really thinking about. And this is one things that you and I kind of connect on Ben quite a bit in terms of like what makes me bullish.

Like the percentage of people in the world that understand Bitcoin is really, really infinitesimal. And anytime you go in an enormous circles and you bring up Bitcoin and you like, like try to explain it and you try to explain what's obvious to you and they just don't get it, it's just like that makes me really bullish. Like, right? And so I think about that in terms of, oh my God. Like, you know, Ben and our parents, I don't know if you guys are on your side of

Joey, but, you know, like there is a world that our kids will live in that will never like, they will never know a world without Bitcoin. Like they just won't. And so like I think about this like every day, you know, again, I'm probably going to lose some fans. Somebody leaves the earth who probably didn't get Bitcoin. And every day someone else is born into the world that won't know a world without it. And so like to me, like there's just going to be this like natural adoption.

I don't know how fast is going to happen. I don't know like how it's going to play out. I don't pretend to be like some Oracle and I don't want to be the talking head on Twitter that pretends that I have. have the answer there. But what I do know is that like my kids, your kids, everyone else, there's Quartet with Bit 47. Like they just won't know a world of that Bitcoin. And so I talked to you a little bit about this, Ben. I've been building. So I'm involved in so many different things in terms of business. And almost none of these things are like, like almost all of

them have economic viability to it. Otherwise I would invest or get behind it. And like I've been working on something with JC with Tim and some other Bitcoin dads ultimately to develop a solution so that way parents can talk to Bitcoin or Bitcoin kids about Bitcoin. And so we develop something called Sat CENTives. It's something I've been like super passionate about even though I know the economic model is not that viable at least right now. And it's because like I realize my kids don't have anything tangible to like build with Bitcoin. It's like hard to talk to them. Like they have this cash register thing that's like a grocery store thing and it has little dollars and it has little coins and they're like able to like make sense of money on some level. Like oh my God, I need money to get the little

fake, you know, grapes and milk cart. And yet, like, they'll never hold the Bitcoin, right? And so, you know, we decided to build this thing called Sat Scentives utilizing NFC technology and ultimately creating a proof of parenting work tool, if you will. That's also a toy for kids. So you can model their behavior. And so my kids get really excited about, you know, stars and points. And I'm like, that's retarded, sweetheart. Like, pardon the R word. Like, you know, like, we need like, they need money. Like, let's be giving them money for this stuff. They're doing. work here. Like, and so we ultimately just like created this tool, J.C. and I were like, we want this

for us. And so we started to build this set sentence card where basically like our kids will start to get incentivized to use like sets and ultimately, you know, clean the room or, you know, potty train or pick the behavior you want to model. And as a parent, it makes it a lot easier and a lot more fun to be talking to my kids about Bitcoin. And so and just like hard work and the value of hard work and the value of money. and ultimately understanding it.

And so, like, what, like, what's got me really, really bullish is that, like, no matter how much we screw this up, Ben, like, our kids won't. And they will live in a world that's only Bitcoin. And so I've been, like, taking up more and more of my mind space in this, like, intersection of being a dad and a Bitcoiner and trying to figure out what that actually means. And how do I actually, like, integrate that in the conversations with my kids? And so, yeah, dude, that's what's got me super bullish, dude. I love that.

I also love that I get to call my kid a fucking retard for, like, in their stories. on her chart. Well, no, it's my wife that's like, I'm like, what are we doing getting gold stars away here? I don't know about this. You need some hard money. What are you doing with your stars? Come on. Let's send our kids to college by, you know.

Stickers. What are you? No. I'm going to give you NFTs. Yeah, no, I think that's awesome. I'm going to play around as this gets fleshed out because like my, my daughters. starting to, and again, a perfect example.

Again, my daughter's four, turning five this summer. She has never known a world where Bitcoin didn't exist. My son's 11 months old. Same thing, right? And I love that you, as morbid as it may seem,

I love that you kind of touched on the fact that there's an ebb and flow to these, these generations of people that, you know, grew up in a world of, of the fiat system, of traditional banking. And those, those people are, are gradually no longer here. And we're, and honestly, we're among them, right? But we, we are, we see the transition happening. And I think maybe we see kind of the writing on the wall of what's happening. And, and more will come to see that. But over time,

anybody that has eventually the entire world will live in a world where Bitcoin and the option for censorship resistant global sound money has always existed and they will always know that that has been an option

and they will know how that has contrasted to Fiat they will all know because it will have been present their entire lives and it doesn't take a couple decades to figure out what the better side to be on is. Well, I don't want to unbrainwash them in the way I

had to. Like, I lived in a world as an accountant and worked at public four, like the big four public accounting firms. I've owned businesses. Like, I've reconciled financial statements. I've like, invested in, like, in early stages. Like, I'm like, and I didn't understand what money was all while I was doing that. Right. Like, you have to like untrain your brain to ultimately understand Bitcoin. And like for them, they won't have to. Right. Like, it's one thing to train someone to do something. It's one thing to untrain it. And I think it's really, really difficult to untrain those types of things. Like, you know, part of why I'm bullish is that like a lot of us, and I talk to a lot of bitcoins. I don't know if this is true for you, Joey and Lynn, but,

you know, Ben and I know you and I've talked about this. Like, we didn't really have like a lot of like financial like, like education in, in our lives. Like it's just like, I didn't know what any of this stuff was. And like I had to figure it all out as an adult. And I don't want my kids to do that. And so like the reality of it is is like, as a parent, I want to prepare my kids to be prepared to go out and live like the most, you know, fulfilling lives they can. For that to happen, they have to be financially literate. For them to be financially literate in the world they're going to live in, they're going to have to understand Bitcoin. They're going to have to understand hard work. You're going to have to understand risk

reward. And like, these are things that like I want to try to teach and like I struggle to do that without having something tangible. And so I, I had a very early kind of opposite, you know, like the antithesis of what you want to learn. You know, like you, you, you, you grow up and, and like the incentive should be that, that saving is good, that, that postponing gratification is good. And planning for the future is good. And if, you know, if you work hard and delay that gratification, you can get something better in turn. You can build something grander. You can, you can achieve more. And so as I was very young, My, you know, we, we moved across the country.

My, you know, my parents weren't, we weren't in a position where we had a lot of money. And, you know, things just all around were shitty. And I was like six, six or seven. And I had like a bit of an allowance. I would do some stuff. And I get a little bit of money here and there. And I did it for a while. And I ended up getting to the point where I had like, like, $100, $150, something like that.

You know, and to me, that's. A son of money. Yeah, that's huge. And I'm thinking, like, I'm a little kid and, like, I could probably afford, like, a cheap bike. I wanted a bicycle. But unfortunately, like, with the move, hard times, everything. And I totally understand with the move, it was, like, work did not come immediately to my parents. And they have to prioritize things.

And number one is making sure that we don't fucking starve. And so my mom had to make the hard decision. of taking my money and getting groceries. And so it got to the point where I was like, mom, can I go get a bike now? Can I finally get, and like she literally had to break down in tears and tell me that she had to buy groceries.

And, and like that, I think it imprinted on me a little bit of like, you know, it took, it took time. And I almost, I honestly like forgot that experience for a long time.

But I think for a little while like imprinted on me like this, you know, you save and it doesn't work out. And so through my teens and my my probably even early 20s, I did not. I just did. I saved nothing. I spent every cent I had. But this is if you if you zoom out and you look at the incentive. of of fiat. That is the incentive.

Spend every sat, like spend every, not sat, every cent that you have because if you save it, we will whittle it away at an accelerated pace over time. And think of what that does to the collective of the entirety of the world because everybody is on a fiat standard right now, bar the bitcoins out there.

and a lot of you know i've talked to friends and they kind of dismissed the idea of like how much money can impact the the the mannerisms and and the the you know the how a person acts and where they allocate capital i i think it has way more impact than everybody assumes and i think that the collective over time it's just it's destroyed savings savings is dead. Let me ask you guys, this is the parents. I think when I think about Bitcoin, what it did for me, it really changed my perspective on savings.

Like you mentioned, my time horizon on it, you know, for traditional investing as well. And just a number of other behaviors sort of, you know, changed for me almost overnight, you know, the course of a few months after I started investing in Bitcoin five years ago, whatever it was. One thing, though, that I think the four of us have in common,

we're a little bit different in age, I would guess, but close enough that our parents are probably boomers. And, you know, I think about like the way that my parents raised me much, much, you know, to your point, Ben, about how there was an understanding that there's more important things than spending every penny you get as soon as you get it on something shiny, right? They try to impart that on you. And I think for the most part, you know, we learned similar things in school at the time as well.

Like as far as the economic theory, okay, sure, fractional reserve was still a part of like grade 10, 11 economics. I won't fight with you there. I think teachers also had this a similar mindset because they were boomers too. And, you know, then I think about what you guys are going through now and what I fear, you know, as a God willing father at some point, is that I'll be swimming upstream talking to my kids about these sorts of good behaviors and good habits. You know, I remember when I was in teachers college, it just would have been, I'm 34 now. I was 23, I guess, at that time. So 10, 11 years ago.

You're 34. You look like you're fucking 23. How old do I look where you think were that? I thought that's what I think. We're all around the same age. Come on. With Rummel. I don't think anyone else on this panel is 18, Joey.

I know. Yellow is asking about my face wash. I'll tell you after you. Come on. So I remember teachers college thinking about some of the stuff I was learning there. And like I'm thinking this is really not what I learned. Maybe it's like a more modern way. But, you know, also some of the behaviors that I saw from my colleagues in education at the time.

Some of those people went on to be full-time teachers, 10-yeared professionals in elementary schools around Ontario and in the U.S. And I worry now, and I'm curious here what you guys think, so I'll ask you guys, do you feel like you're swimming upstream with your kids at home? Or are you constantly battling in the six hours, seven hours, let's say, max, that you get with your kids from Monday through Friday? Are you fighting against the things they're learning in the other 16, 15, whatever hours that they're not with you?

because I feel like that's a real possibility. I think Bitcoin would help with that because it's such a clear, you know, quote unquote, tangible way to address the shortcomings in Fiat thinking and Fiat money. But I want to hear what you guys think. I want to hear if that's something that I'm dreaming up as a problem that I'm likely to experience or if you're actually seeing it right now. Let's let Len take it.

Len, do you want to dive first? Sure. I could say like on my side, yeah, there is you have to undo some of the things that they've learned. Unfortunately, that's part of the process of being appeared in today. But in my case, it's still a little too young to truly go down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin. But one thing that is prevalent, though, and even without talking about Bitcoin, is proof of work. And this is one of the fundamental layers of Bitcoin. And it should apply to also life itself, because you get rewarded for actually doing something that somebody wants. It's not like, you know, a proof of stake system,

which is similar to a UBI where you just get paid for simply existing. Proof of work is something which we should be instilling on everybody, young and old and it doesn't matter what age. So I could say that over my side. That's something I'm trying to put in my daughter. But in terms of erasing some of the things learning, it's a, yeah, it's a battle. It's got to be. Like I just, I don't know.

And we're all like from different parts of the country like in Father John. Like you're not even Canadian. And we're all seeing the same things, right? We can't agree on almost anything as a population. But it seems to me the things we do agree on are the worst. It's like the worst possible outcome, right? And so you got this new incentive that you guys are starting to try and teach kids about the value of things, the value of money, the value of time preference. But everywhere else you look, it's gone completely the opposite direction.

So what do you do? What's the like what's the plan now? Well, let me give you a little bit of like reflective thought because I've thought about this little bit, especially going to going through this. this journey with J.C. and Tim and talking to some other Bitcoin dads about this particular thought. What I've learned from my kids is that I'm not as worried about what the rest of the world is teaching him yet. And I, you know, I think that like there'll be a time where that comes, where I won't be the biggest influencer in their lives, perhaps. But I'm more worried about like correcting my habits right now. And right now, what I'm realizing is the things that I need

on teach me so that way they don't absorb those things, man. You know, one of the reasons I called this thing, one of the reasons like a tagline of it was like the proof of work parenting tool was because like, you know, I really think there's so many lessons that come through like what proof of work consensus means, you know, where like I'm not like trying to teach them about like ones and zeros and like, like, I'm not trying to teach them about like, you know, really, really in depth like esoteric Bitcoin, like, you know, thoughts or whatever. but rather like there are just really fundamental things and i think len and and ben hit on it a little bit so i won't beat it up

but honestly i'm less worried about the world's teaching them right now at the age that my kids are and i'm more worried about like what they're absorbing from me um if i'm being completely honest i think that's pretty i think you're pretty correct there because i mean when you think about it who like in their immediate circle, who has absorbed more of fiat culture than their parents, right? And so you have to then, like you have habits that have been formed since well before Bitcoin was created, that you are now just starting to fight against. You just begin, and I can tell you, I still sure as fuck have those fiat habits, you know, and it's a struggle. For me, it's it's shit food.

For me, it's, it's, you know, buying shit on Amazon that I don't necessarily need. You know, like, I mean, same with, you know, my, my wife fully recognizes, you know, Bitcoin and, and the, the contrast between, you know, fiat currency and sound money. But same thing. Like, we've got these habits where it's like, you know, You got to go and consume. That's what we've been taught for multiple decades. I'm turning 37 in a couple weeks.

I don't look as supple as Joey, but I'm turning 37 in a couple of weeks. So, you know, like I got a good, you know, nearly, you know, two and a half decades of Viat culture just bombarded upon me. And that's hard to undo those habits. I'm excited to see what a world where there's a sound money alternative that's viable. Like in a world where you can move globally, where everything else moves globally, except for money, except now.

I'm excited to see the habits that are imparted upon my children. impart from me being like, hey, this is important. Look at this. And then them growing up in that world and putting together puzzle pieces that even myself, having those two and a half decades of bad advice can't put together myself. I can only imagine what an entire generation of people in those proper conditions with the with the juxtaposition of Bitcoin and late stage fiat could do because holy shit the the the days of old when people would start projects that they know wouldn't even

be completed in their lifetimes I think we're about to see that return and I'm very excited for humanity as a whole. And I genuinely believe that my daughter will see projects begun that her grandchildren will see completed. And I think that's a fucking beautiful thing for humanity as a whole. That's the last time we got it right was when we were planting seeds for trees that we would not enjoy the shade of, right? That famous old saying. That's definitely not from the Bible. I don't know where it's from.

unless it is from the Bible, Father John, but I don't think it's from the Bible. So, you know, as you know, my familiarity is non-denominational Satoshiism. And so, you know, I cannot confirm. I cannot deny.

My mother just uninvited me from, I think, excuse me, Easter dinner. So I appreciate you, Joe. Yeah. Good. Good. Do you think that Bitcoin instills some old school values that have been lost in the past

couple of decades or so? because the elder statesman here, I could have been, I'm probably older than all of you guys combined. But really growing up... What are you, 38? No, I turned 45 this year. So growing up, like, the mentality we always had, my parents had and tried to instill in us is save, save,

and then, you know, ultimately then buy something really nice, hopefully at home. It's kind of, it kind of seems like that Bitcoin is reintroducing those old school values. That just have been lost because saving in Bitcoin, And you don't want to spend it. You want to hold as much as possible. And at the right time, potentially parlayed into something else. But you don't want to certainly spend it on some frivolous item.

You want to just hold it as much as possible. Just my two cents. You know, it's funny really quickly. I don't want to riff too much further on that. Because I know we got, I want to get the Joey's take, especially before he turns 35. But the thing is how I explained. So like, I lived in a life where when I was born, the T-bill was probably like, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 percent and you could buy CDs for like, you know, whatever, 15, 18 percent and just

like, like, like, I don't know, retire based on savings. And in our lifetime, that changed pretty significantly by the time I came into a place where I'd had money that was disposable to invest. And the reality is like, how I explained Bitcoin to my mom is just like, oh, mom, you were finally right. You were able, like, you know, saving money makes sense again or make sats again, whatever you want me to, you know, be dad joke here. But, you know, it really is like, it's how I had to use old school takes that my mom were, you know, mentioned like, you know, save your money, don't spend it on frivolous stuff, yada, yada, yada.

And, you know, Bitcoin finally made my mom's lessons true again. And so that's part of how I explained it back to her. Hey, yellow, if you keep talking about how young Joey looks while I'm next to him, I'm going to fucking fight you, dude. Okay, well, well, this is, okay, come here. You got to, this is my wife. This is Lisa. Okay, hold on, hold on.

How old do you think that guy is? How old do you think he is? You take a wild guess, hold on. This is unbelievable content for the audio side. Oh, my God. That guy. That guy. I mean, clearly he's the youngest person here.

Yeah, but you look like you're like 22. He's 34. He's my age. You're the same age as my wife. Hey, man. What can I say? You know, Ben, your wife's a lovely woman, I'm sure. If you feel like you've aged, it's not her fault.

Okay, I'll tell you that. That's 100% not the problem. All right? Yeah. That's, this is. I was going to say that you guys all have a kid. I got, man, I got a dog. I just got to feed him.

Otherwise, he's not much trouble. He's the only one on the panel who doesn't have kids. She's like, yeah, I get it. Yeah. Easy. That's awesome. All right. Well, bye.

Bye, family. Awesome. I love that. I'm selling all my banana bread. Yeah, yeah. You guys crack me up, man. Tell me I look young too, I love it.

No, but I really, I like that. I mean, just to close the thought on lens, please, I do. I do think it imposes some old school stuff. I don't like to get in a lot of, like, the assoteric takes on some of those stuff sometimes because, like,

I don't like to impart my values on people, even though I'm building a tool so they can raise their kids the way I want them to. But I'll joke and aside. Yeah, I do. I think there are some inevitable old thing, like old school things that come through when you have sound money and you can actually save and retire with dignity.

and not have to go upstream and like swim with sharks. Like I think it's inevitable. Yeah, I agree. 100%. Well, let's continue on. Let's keep it rolling. We got through myself. We got through Len, John.

Joey, you are up next. Your turn. Your rant. What are you going to be bullish about? Sirs. I just sent the article in the chat. I don't know if you want to pull it up. It doesn't really matter to me.

Arthur Hayes, who present company excluded, is my favorite exiled big. Bitcoiner. He's put out, you know, a couple of really honker pieces on his medium blog in the last, I don't know, six months, seven months. Maelstrom was a really good one. There's been a few others that come to mind. But yesterday he put one out called Energy Canceled. Okay. And this article is, I think it's, I think it's really prescient. I think it's going to age very well. And I think there's some stuff in here that some Bitcoiners understand to be true inherently. others need more of a grip on. So to start, a couple of the things that I think are worth taking away, all right? We're not going to read through the whole thing.

There's just some overarching ideas and terms and phrases that I think are worth talking about with you guys and with the chat. One is this idea that he pulls from Zoltan, who's the Credit Suisse Fed Watcher, let's say. You know, very notable name in finance. You know, he's as close to a crystal ball as I think most of Finlay would say you can get in a man. he coined these two terms inside money and outside money. And he's put out a few notes recently about the end of Bretton Woods two,

the beginning of Bretton Woods three, as it were. Inside money are monetary instruments that exist as liabilities on another player's balance sheet. A government bond is a liability of the sovereign, but an asset in the banking system that trades like cash depending on the credit quality of the issuer. Outside money, now this is where it gets good if you're a bitcooner, are instruments that are not liabilities on another player's balance sheet. Gold and Bitcoin are perfect examples. So in this article, there's a breakdown of, you know, it's basically an explain like I'm five

breakdown of the events between Russia, Ukraine, and specifically the G7 seizure of sovereign treasuries that belong to Russia. And that, the total treasuries there, you know, I don't know what that number ended up being. I think it was, you know, maybe a couple hundred billion or a hundred billion. I don't know exactly what it was. But the point he's making is not one about Russia and Ukraine. It's one about how safe is your sovereign investment if you don't control the system that it trades in?

This is an interesting point that we've not had to think about ever, basically, since Bretton Woods II started in 71, or I guess after World War II, I should say. So we don't have to think about these things. The thing that I would just point to here is that as it stands, there's, you know, in progress, in my view and the view, you have many others, like Nick Carter talks about this, and I think he was just on Peter McCormick show talking about this as well. There's a realignment of powers in the world to sort of a more multipolar world coming from a U.S. dominated global scene. There's new bedfellows in China, India, and Russia, and perhaps they've been bedfellows for a long time. No one really knows, but they're more public about it now and very clearly showing where their allegiances lie

and poking the bear a little bit while the bear is wounded. And one of the things that Arthur talks about in the article is that China is the largest holder, or one of the largest holders of U.S. government debt. They have somewhere between $3 and $4 trillion. That's now a sitting duck for confiscation, in his words, by the West at any moment. And truly, this is what we talked about earlier with these policies and different, you know, FOPO outcomes and options that happen on whims of the moment. So whether or not you are aligned with, you know, Russia's flag, Ukraine's flag, Estonia's flag, America's flag, Canada's flag, it doesn't matter. The possibilities here are very clear.

And so this is a new paradigm for savers, both individual and sovereign. You know, the person that, you know, is listening to the show or in the chat and the countries that are finding themselves with these trillions and trillions of dollars that can be apparently upended and, you know, rug pulled on you at any moment, given the right opportunity from the allied powers in the West. So the thing that Arthur is pointing to is that there's a couple of things that are going to, I think, materialize in the next 10 or 15 years. So it's a medium to long term layout here. So there's a couple of things that are important as far as the assets involved. The assets involved in the article are commodities. So he's talking about food and energy specifically. And then he also goes into the most famous commodity of all is the gold market as well.

Luke Roman makes a good point about these commodities that they're fire alarms for problems in the financial system and more specifically fire alarms for weakness in currency. So the reason that you don't see gold going up over $2,000, you know, in a three-year stretch, and truly this is like a death knell for gold bugs, right? Like if Peter Schiff was ever going to become a user of street drugs or visit some other kind of, you know, neighborhood pharmaceutical unlicensed, of course, this would drive him to it, right? You have a two-year pandemic where the economy shuts down and more money is printed than ever before.

And it's immediately followed by a land. and war in Europe, continental Europe, with a nuclear power in a non-democratic state. Incredible setup for a gold run. It doesn't happen. Gold is a little easier to fudge in the commodities market because of the sort of lack of industrial use and the paper markets obviously do something to suppress the price of gold they have for many years. Luke Roman makes the point that or makes the case that the reason those paper markets are so successful in the suppression of the price is because their government supported thanks to their mechanism as a fire alarm for currency failure.

So as Arthur points out, there's going to be in the next, you know, five or 10 or 15 years of failure in these suppression mechanisms in energy, in food, and in gold. And right now, Bitcoin moves as a risk asset, but he makes the case that even though in his view, gold will become the reserve asset for the new economy, the uncoupling from the NASDAQ that we talk about all the time,

will happen when gold starts to hit $10,000 or more. And this is bound to happen, right? It's bound to happen either because of the physical supply shock or because of inflation. But either way, the nominal price of gold is going to reach $10,000 at some point. We just don't know when, right? It's only a matter of time, though. As soon as that happens, you're going to start to see equities drop into a bear market. And this is all him talking.

I'm trying to paraphrase as best I can. But the thing that will break the coupling between. Bitcoin and the NASDAQ is that people will start to scramble for digital, easily transferable, as we talked about before, easily custod, easily custody, easily all these things that gold is not when the gold price goes to 10,000. And so even though there may be some rocky times ahead for Bitcoin, the lessons that Bitcoin has tried to teach to gold bugs about ease of use, ease of possession, and all these things will be learned again in an environment where missing your boat, you know, We talk now about this 1% allocation just in case.

It's a pretty low risk to not have a 1% allocation of Bitcoin today. Maybe not today. Let's say, you know, six months ago. But in a world where the equities market is tanking and there's a scramble for real tangible assets that underpin the global economy going forward and the Fiat Ponzi shell game of the stock market, real estate, all these things where paper markets exist and depressed price and, you know, are invented, you know, have invented values based on. measuring sticks that the government sets and the government tells you whether or not they

were met through their own metrics. In this world, missing an allocation to Bitcoin as gold hits 10,000 is a death sentence. And that's when the price of Bitcoin rips to a million and continues to accelerate past that. I don't often read Arthur stuff the day it comes out, but there was so much buzz about this last night that I had to read it. And I'm glad I did. If you're looking for a more, like a deeper dive than this, Matt and Marty talked about this on TFTC. today, though I didn't hear the whole thing. I heard about 10 minutes of it. Those guys are smart. It's pretty good. And Len, I'm telling you right now, we better fucking have this on the A block for Monday's show because I want to talk about it again. It's too important to miss this stuff. And

Arthur is really a guy who's got a lot of experience in equities markets. He's an equities trader before he started Bitmex. And, you know, he's a guy who, again, you can call him a, you know, Chad Gigable or whatever, but he's making the case that gold is going to be the underlying. And Bitcoin is going to be it's sort of sidekick. So he's obviously not as bullish as some people are. I think this is a really well-balanced article. And I think he asked some questions that lead to Bitcoin that are very, very difficult to argue with.

Damn, dude. I got to read that. I don't know. Len, have you dove into this yet? No, I haven't. But the question I would bring up then is gold had an opportunity for a decade or so to really have proven itself the historical, you know, where you would park your wealth. But it's kind of been stagnant for a decade.

It had a good run-up in a past month or so, but excluding that, it's been pretty bad. So, I mean, the only thing I would counter that is it's just, it just lost its luster, unfortunately. And I'm wondering if there's going to be a huge run-up in the price of gold. And it would just be simply as a result of inflation, as you say, Joey, because that could be one of the reasons why you know, you'd be printing money to infinity and you get just, you know,

prices of gold going up as a result of that. So I'm just wondering if, you know, I can't wrap my head around gold being a still being used as a store of value going forward, especially with, and you noted it to it. It was referenced in the article.

It's not a good source to, for countries that they could easily have it confiscated. Russia had their gold confiscated not too long ago. And just before that, that Venezuela had it too. So the saleability across space is not proven with gold. It's proven with Bitcoin. So part of the, part of the reason, okay, so two things, right?

Part of the reason that gold, I think, is bound to run a 10,000. It brings me no great pleasure to say this. I should preface these comments. Okay, I don't have any gold. You know, my wedding ring is about it. This is the only reason I didn't get one of those trendy black wedding rings. It's so I could at least have a little bit of gold when shit goes, you know, when hits the fan. So the thing, the thing I would say is that the paper market,

I think has been acting as a fractional reserve system for physical gold. And if those debts are called in, there isn't going to be enough gold to go around. And as soon as that happens in a public enough setting, much like we just saw in the nickel market, I believe, three days, three trading days ago, where they shut down the London mercantile exchange for like four days. What the fuck is that? That's banana republic shit. You see that shit? Like we talk all the time about the gold machine gun index, right? you can't invest in places where people are riding around in jeeps with gold machine guns.

If you see that, you cannot park your money there. You can't live there. That's the kind of thing you see in a gold machine gun indexed country. But that was in London. That's in London. They're doing that. So I think that they realize, and most people by now should realize that most of the commodities, especially the metals, there isn't enough physical to cover the paper. That's one.

Two, as far as the confiscated ability of gold, you're right. And I can't remember who said this. I don't think it's in Arthur's article, but I heard it somewhere else earlier this week, that one of the things that happens in a world where real assets underpin all true value, and you can't just print your way to a military that dominates the globe, print your way to securing naval corridors and things like that to transport gold, to transport oil, to transport goods, what you have is these countries who don't have gold moving to a similar asset.

And the asset that he points to in the article is Bitcoin. He talks about El Salvador and Latam being good candidates for this, because they don't have the military, the might or the wherewithal, right, the competency to design a naval defense plan that allows for trade or transport of goods, you know, for value or otherwise. So I think you're right on one hand, but I think that ignoring the paper market in commodities, especially in metals, it's been easy till now because the Fiat Ponzi has been this incredible tool for enrichment for people who get it and how to use it, right?

And we see this everywhere. It's like institutionalized. It's not just you and me investing. It's pensions. It's, you know, large corporations, it's governments. It's everyone is into the stock market. And everyone has seen these charts where the stock market only goes up, right? But when inflation gets to a point where other goods are being monetized at a rate that's impossible to ignore and people start calling in their paper for those goods, it's a problem. You're seeing that now in housing, by the way. So there's a lot of talk about. you know, housing is a problem because of interest rates and because of cheap money and because of all these things. That is true for sure. But the reason that that's a problem, you know, or one of the symptoms of that problem is that the monetization of these assets is taking place too quickly. Houses are going up by 100% every two years or 100% every three years. It's actually more reflective of the true value of the dollar more than anything else. That's my argument with that. There's two sides of the same coin, right? No pun intended there. The dollar is losing value. And so people would rather have the house, even if they don't live in it, even if it just rents for them, even if it sits idle, they would rather have that than to have the money that they bought the house with. So you see all these monetization mechanisms starting to accelerate and sort of take hold of the public zeitgeist for the first time. This is the third piece. You could hide this before Twitter. You could hide this before, you know, BT,

C sessions, why are we bullish once a week? You could hide all this stuff. But now, you know, even my father is 60-something years old, even he knows that Pelosi is looting the empire in its final days, right? Like, even he knows that the stuff that's going on in Russia and Ukraine has its, you know, origins in poor incentives and poor money. And this stuff is impossible to hide now. It's easy to pull the wool over a busy family man, you know, in 1995 with no internet.

and he's taking his kids to sports every night. But it is much more difficult when all this stuff is widely available and everyone is sharing it. It's too hard to suppress the information. And, you know, as an aside, I would just say, you know, you could read books on this stuff

about, you know, the changing world order by Dahlia was really good. He just put a video out in his channel that I recommend people watch. But really, the book to read, honestly, is the sovereign individual. These two guys called this stuff 30 years ago, man, or 20 years ago, so 25 years ago now. It's crazy how close they were on all this stuff.

It was predictable and we're living through it now. So, you know, I don't want to chew up all this time. If you guys got other stuff to say that, let's talk about it. But I think that article is 100% worth reading. Dude, so I'm going to push back on one point. And the one point is you say it's easy to pull a wall over some family man's eyes in 95 who has no internet access. I was there. I don't know, man.

Maybe I should rephrase it. It's easier to convince that person that the problem is somewhere that it's not, right? It's easy to put a funhouse mirror in front of the problem and mask it somehow. We see this already in the CPI numbers, right? Like, that's a fun house mirror. And before there was all this commentary about CPI, how would you know? How would you know? I agree in a sense that the information is more readily accepted.

accessible. Those that are curious will find and come upon, oh, here is an alternative view. Here's, here's the numbers that I'm being fed and here's a better interpretation of what those numbers actually mean of what's going on. But I think we're still grappling with the fact that information is so readily available. I think society as a whole, All of humanity is still dealing with the fact that information is instant and available worldwide. I think we haven't gotten over that fact yet. And we haven't gotten to the point where we can disseminate information, fact from fiction, well enough to understand what's truly going on around us? Because what do you see right now?

Everything is, you know, know, we got, we got a fact check. It's, you know, we've got to actually ban certain ideas. We've got to get rid of certain ideas. So like, what's actually being fed to the average layman in current times that is just getting his information from what the fuck ever? Like, what's the difference between the dude in 95 who is a family man and watches the six o'clock news versus the dude in 2020?

22, me, the second part does not apply to me, but the dude in 22 who has a family and gets his info on his fucking Facebook news feed. And like whatever articles comes across his timeline, he's like, yeah, sure, that's what's happening in the world. It's, it's more or less the same thing being kind of fed to him through different. entities the the main difference now is that there is an alternative to go down different routes and find dissenting information if you choose to do so it's just that so far there hasn't yet been the incentive to actually do that in contrast with the narrative you're being fed and I think that's what we're grappling with now. I think we're honestly still grappling with the fact

that we have the internet. I think humanity is taking multiple decades to figure out how the fuck we deal with instant information everywhere. You're right. I'll just, I'll read one thing from the end of the article to your point, Ben, because I agree with you. I think we're, I think we're saying the same thing. Maybe I didn't word it properly, but the options, the options now are available, but finding them can be difficult. You're right. There's a lot of, you know, controlled messaging, let's say. You know, I mentioned on our show on Friday that oftentimes it's not a sign of a country with a lot of tread left on the tires when you're recruiting, you know, young attractive women to make videos in their bathroom targeted at young horny guys to make sure that they have the right information about Ukraine and Russia. It's not really what an empire with a lot of tread left on the tires does.

That's a story from another time. The last bit of the article from Arthur is really good. Don't let anyone paint you as a stark raving Cassandra, which is a nod to, to Mike Burry's Twitter account for taking drastic action to protect your standard of living by saving using different types of monetary hard assets. You cannot cancel the largest energy producer from a monetary system without massive repercussions. If even the bougiest, most establishment sycophantic media outlets come to the same conclusions as this essay, then it's only those who refuse to open their eyes and ears who will be left

in the dust of history believing nothing is afoot. Incredible, man. Incredible. John, I know you want to add. Yeah, no, I, there's like a lot to chime in there. Joey, I love take. I started to read the article the other day. I had a conversation, actually, that I think is worth mentioning. And I'll bring up this idea on the back end.

I actually posed that question to Peter Schiff in Clubhouse a few weeks ago. I said, yo, dude, you got like, you know, you got like the setup for your team, man. It's like Sunny, 75, Tom Brady and the receivers are, you know, like ready to go. and like six interceptions later. You know, like, so you have the perfect setup, everything that you've been preaching about, even if I would tell you, I know,

and I'm sure you guys do too, a number of people that started to learn about sound money and landed in Bitcoin because of guys like Peter Schiff that ultimately were preaching, and I won't regard to say to all of what you just kind of went through, but ultimately, you know, preaching against like inflationary narratives,

et cetera, et cetera. So one, I would tell you, he didn't have a good answer, as you already know. And so I don't know that I'm here to rebut and that I'm properly equipped to rebut all of, of Arthur's thoughts there, because I actually agree with a lot of it.

But I would tell you that, like, empirically, we've seen a pretty good, I think, test case for the last 13 years. And it hasn't played out in that way. The reality is, like, if you've chosen Bitcoin or excuse me, gold over Bitcoin, you've lost 99% of your wealth. And it's like, how much longer do you, you know, hold on to something like that in hopes of even more draconian times where, again, I still think you can go back to the point. that David Wong brings up, like, I don't want Bitcoin or gold in the environments that I think are being described. I want a missile silo and like stockpiles of food and like really good booze to deal with, you know, living people with people in tight quarters. So, you know, I would say that like, we've had the perfect setup and there hasn't been performance there. On the other hand, I think

there's been a really important lesson that the confiscatedability argument comes to. And I would tell you a couple things. One, I think confiscateability is inherently tied to transportability. The reality of it is. Like, how do you move significant amounts of wealth and gold? How do you do it? You can't. You know, Peter Schiff literally laughingly said in that conversation I had with him and others in clubhouse was, you know, you just take it on a plane. I'm like, Peter, how much are you worth $5 million? Like, you know, do you know how much $5 million worth of gold is? It's like, you can't carry that on a plane. And by the way, like, you know, that basically comes to the sense of like confiscated, confiscated ability inherently is related to how much.

you can move of your wealth and how quickly you can do that, right? I mean, we all know the power of Bitcoin, right? Like, I can walk naked across the border to Mexico. And while that's a frightening thought for a lot of people, and reality is, like, it's really, really assuring that I can, you know, remember 12 or 24 things and ultimately be able to carry everything I work for and ensure my family's sovereignty, right? So I don't know that I can fully grasp all that.

I think to think about confiscateability is to also think about transportability. And I wonder if Arthur has, like, played that out fully. The other thought I would tell you is that Arthur's actually played, I think, like, his case, which I think we've just gotten details on most recently in terms of his settlement, right, Joey? And what I read was true, I think he proved the point. He had leverage because he had the keys. Like, gold has had a bloody history of confiscation, empire to empire, like ideal to idea, religion to religion, right? Like the world is literally fought over physical gold. Bitcoin leads to peaceful outcomes.

because how do you do it? How do you actually take things out of my head? And so I, listen, Arthur's smarter than me and has probably forgotten more about Bitcoin than I'll know. I'm humble enough to admit that. But I don't know that I fully feel like I have to own that, I have to digest that argument or I'm going to be left in the perils of dust or I forget the very, very, it was worse. It was worse. I literally feel like that was written in like northeastern, but English. accent. You know what I mean? Like a very like Harvard like pentameter of sorts. We're like, huh, I'm not from England, but I will impart an English accent, mostly as a function of my net worth. So a couple of thoughts. I think what Arthur is taught or what we can learn from

Arthur in this particular case and what he's dealing with is, hey man, you hold the keys, you hold the leverage. And I think a lot of what he's basically getting away with and I talk to a lot of legal, I think, you know, scholars that I think I respect and probably you guys do too, but I'll protect their names for the moment. And though probably a lot of people deduced who they were by now, is that he was able to get the deal that he got because it was Bitcoin and not gold. Yeah.

Yeah. I haven't seen all the details. That was a while ago when it was all not a while ago, a few days ago. I think, yeah, I think, I think if I look that up really quickly. Yeah, I find it because I wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind saying it for the listeners and viewers. The thing I agree with, and you guys are both mentioning it, this sort of transportability issue is one of confiscatedability as well. And I think that he, you know, maybe I didn't summarize it well enough.

I think he agrees with us that ultimately the problem with gold and the lesson that Bitcoin will teach it again, you know, in the quote unquote, you know, dusty end times or perils of whatever, you know, when people are turning into dust and going back to the earth, whatever, whatever figure speech he is. you know, it'll teach gold that lesson again. And I think he views Bitcoin as the, you know, larger winner for investors, but that the underpinning of the system will be gold. I mean, I don't know if I, I honestly, I don't know if I agree, because one of the things I think we talk about a lot in the Bitcoin space is the demographics of value stores and gold, you know, there's no one moving from Bitcoin to gold, I don't think, but there's probably people who are going to move from gold to Bitcoin.

And I would guess that anyone under 20, you know, of 18-year-olds who are just starting to invest now, they're not looking at gold, right? They're looking at Bitcoin. It's easier to get, easier to move with, easier to transport to their friends. And this is what really makes that, you know, straw that stirs that drink for the younger crowd. And then, you know, much like us, I'm sure you end up staying for the Austrian economics and the hard money. So it seems to me that that's only a matter of time. well. So this is this is the agreement here. Let's see. Yeah. No, I mean I like who do you know right

now that's our age or younger that you ever heard talk about shiny yellow metal? One guy. That's it. He's a Monaro guy too actually. So I know one guy. I know one guy. And I he's lost a lot of stats to me that he's never owned on Bitcoin price bets, which I normally don't take like I'm not you know, I don't sit here and bet on those things typically or like you know, like trade on this stuff in any real way. But like the reality is like I almost know no one right like they might be like trading on game stop or like they might be trading on amc they might be like yolowing through like like through a you know as my friend american hoddle takes like a nihilistic approach to life words like yolo bro i'm just going to toss it out there

and hope it all works out but the reality is like i don't know buddy i like buy an nfts maybe you know are they buying some spy or some vanguard funds in their like ernstin young 401 case probably but like are they buying gold you know like one of the things that made me really bullish in December 2020 as you were reading the article. And I saw it the other day and I saw the pepe meme in it, which I thought was cute with the petro dollar, the pepe petro dollar, whatever, which, you know, I love, I don't know, I love all the pepe memes, dude. They're so good. It's like the best story of Bitcoin ever told. But without getting too lost on a tangent, you know, I just find it like really, really interesting, right? That like, you know,

you got like a whole generation of people that ultimately are never even going to consider gold as part of the equation. They're just not. And so what made me really bullish in December of 2020 is when CIO BlackRock, who still to this day, they own 6.15 Bitcoin. I love that. Is it like he's just like Bitcoin can. You know, I have the, I have the, the quote right here.

Bitcoin could supplant gold is the safe haven store of value according to BlackRock. And it's like, you know, he's saying this in a world of like, you know, like he knows that that's going to. to echo. Like, you know, the CIO of Black Rock recognizes what his words are. And to me, what I heard is he knows that it's just a matter of time until Bitcoin owns BlackRock. And if you haven't seen it over the last 10 years, you certainly haven't seen it over the last three years, I'm asking, and I would ask all gold bugs, like, what's the setup then? You got to play. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think it's got to be that the stock market and

the paper markets stop working. And once, once those markets, market start to break, inflation gets away from the price of stocks or the price of stocks are obviously too high and the money doesn't buy anything, then you start getting physical call-ins for the paper in metal commodities. That's the trigger. If we never get there, then the whole article is, you know, defunct. But if we get there, it's a different story. But what I'm suggesting to you is that that world doesn't like have decisions being made about physical gold or physical silver. That to me is a much more draconian world. Like this idea that you're going to slip to this equilibrium of where gold and silver are relevant to me is I think a really, really,

really, like, naive, like perspective for someone that's as smart as him. Okay, I've got a question. Do we see this again in Bitcoin and gold? Or do we, like in an instance where, and again, I guess those listening to audio only, I've got the chart up of gold's performance in the Weimar Germany during hyperinflation. It's volatile as fuck, but it's up and to the right. And in the end, had you held gold, obviously in Weimar, Germany, you would have been much better off. But do we see this in anything that actually has a limited supply?

or is it does it flow primarily to the censorship resistance easily transferable globally default like if I'm to

if I'm to if I'm to weigh in here I think we see a little bit of this with anything that has a cap supply but at different degrees and over time

we see it flow like let's say everything goes hyperinflationary at some point which I think most of us here are don't believe that's too much

outside the realm of possibility in even the greatest nations on earth let's assume that fiat does what it does do gold and silver and other commodities that are actually fixed

go along for the ride or is it everybody realizes it's bitcoin i think it's i think it's a little bit of everything that's fixed supply and then gradually the friction that people realize along with things like gold and going across borders set in and they realize oh holy shit like, you know, fixed supply is important, but so is transportability. And Bitcoin starts to kick in. But I mean,

as we've seen, you know, Bitcoin's been around 13 years. Not a long time. But the information is there. Here's the question. Here's the question I'd love to ask you, Joey, Arthur, if we could get them to chime in Arthur. If you're

not hanging out with the Southern District of New York right now. you know um you let me know but like what happens after inflation subsides right so like it's a good question so so so that's the thing like is that what you want to own right so a couple like satrhus there's no bitcoin to own right like so obviously why mar is a different world um and the ability and technology to transfer anything digitally is absolutely null at this point right and so sometimes like when we hear like the ymar like comparisons like i certainly understand it i get like i get like I get why it's brought up as often as it does.

But recognizing like the world is significantly different is one that we have to like, you know, hold like impossibly true. So like I would just ask, okay, let's assume that there's this gamma squeeze and Greg's floss is like playbook plays out and, you know, he's high five and I love Greg too. Don't get me wrong. But like, like, so then, okay, we, we normalize back into a world that and hopefully we all would want that, right? We're like, you're not living in a world just like permanent, you know,

Weimar Republic. And so like what happens? The question I would ask, what happens after that? What do you want to hold? That's a good question. And I don't know that that like to me, I don't think that that changes, especially at the levels of wealth that you would want to transport across borders. Because to me, this is, this is almost presuming. If you see that type of chart, it's because people are leaving their homes. And I mean homes as in their home country in, in like World War II like, you know, numbers and figures. It's interesting because the inside, outside money thing does, it kind of makes mention of this that part of having outside money is being able to guarantee

that you can get it when you need it, plug in your ledger, treasor, whatever, your cold card, pick your poison. The other thing, so I think that Bitcoin is the answer there and will become the natural answer over enough time. The thing that I would point to, and me and Len had a, uh, friendly debate about this a couple of weeks ago, about Weimar and what exactly constitutes a hyperinflationary event. These are different times, right? And so oftentimes you hear this commentary about, well, when you have to buy all your drinks for the night up front, that's hyperinflation.

Everyone has heard this before, right? I think that if you're sort of head in the sand until it comes to that point that you're buying all your drinks at the same time, it doesn't matter if you know it's hyperinflation than it's too late. And because of the information available now, you know, I know Ben and I were saying earlier that sometimes it's hard to parse with just the pure density of the content. But I think that now people are more cautious and defensive in the face of inflationary pressures. You know, one thing we've discussed in the past is for the first time in two years, the laptop class, the affluent class, the connected class, the class of people that can mobilize and reach politicians and reach corporations and make us think on the news. And then the. paper and on Twitter, for the first time, those people are going back to work. And those people are going back to 80% higher gas prices, you know, 100% increase in their cost of commute, 100% increase in the cost of their lunch every day, 100% increase in the cost. Like, you pick, pick your variable, right? This is the kind of thing that leads to defensive posturing against inflationary narratives, right? Hyperinflationary narratives. And I think that that,

That instance, that moment where the threshold is crossed and the average person, right, this laptop class person starts to defend against inflation with non-traditional hard money assets like it's, you know, Bitcoin in our case, I think. That could also be a trigger for this. It doesn't necessarily have to be. And this is something Arthur misses. I don't know how he missed this, but I think he missed it. It doesn't necessarily have to be a call in on metal markets. I think it can be a lot sooner than that if enough people are like, I've had it. I've had enough.

I see where this is going. I need to start putting 5%, 10%, and it's just the average person. Because the average person has, you know, in their like social network, they're the node for 15 other people, right? All of us are the guy at the party who if someone wants to know about Bitcoin, you got the minute long hit for them, right? You got the elevator pitch for Bitcoin. And, you know, it was one of you guys earlier talking about maybe that maybe was you, Ben, talking about how Bitcoin, yeah, was you, Bitcoin was water. The reason that Bitcoin continues to be so resilient is because we keep. on being given more ammunition for the chamber by the powers that be. And so the conversation

gets easier and easier to have. And that's like a positive feedback loop. That flywheel is going to be hard to contend with at some point. And so I don't know if that is that if that really answers your question. But I think that that's one thing that Hayes didn't consider that I think the four of us probably do consider and probably why we've already started to buy Bitcoin, though the hyperinflationary spike, the World War II migration, that stuff is not on the immediate horizon. but it's, I would say to your point, Ben, about hyperinflation, it's no longer out of the question.

It's not even close to out of the question anymore. We're witnessing now a change of the guard more than anything else. Like it's more to, we see it, we see it as late stage fiat was mentioned in today's show. The U.S. dollar is losing its dominance. And just we could see it on so many levels with the United States,

sorry, with China, getting buddy, buddy with India, Saudi Arabia, Russia. it's inevitable that the US dollar will just lose its

world reserve currency status. And on a flip side, gold in itself too seems to have lost its luster because maybe not totally due to Bitcoin at its infancy, but over time it seems to have lost some of the store of value that Bitcoin has got some of the money

that would have typically flowed into gold. And it was touched upon by Father John to confiscate it could be easily confiscatable. gold can in comparison to Bitcoin. So this is why I go back to it. I don't think gold is ever going to be used as a measuring stick, so to speak, because Bitcoin is just so much easier to use. And as we move forward that more people adopt Bitcoin, more countries adopt Bitcoin,

more companies adopt Bitcoin, it could be used then as a currency moving forward to. So when it comes to a point when Fiat collapses, what do you do at that point? how do you function? Well, Bitcoin could potentially fill the void in that regard because you will have a lot more opportunities to actually spend it and to use it for buying goods and services. So it would be in a really good position to do so. I think that something else to consider too.

Bitcoin, it came at the perfect time. If it came 10 years too early, it would have never been adopted. If it came 10 years too late, it would have been too late. It was the exact perfect time where you had, after the 2008 economic collapse, you had people that have computers in their pockets, and you're able to essentially transact, maybe not the onset of Bitcoin, but all this would happen at the right time. And it's like lightning in a bottle. And this can never have been predicted and cannot be replicated. It's just absolutely perfect timing. And something this has to be

knowledge. It's something that I think about it more and more frequently lately because it's just insane that this came at the absolute perfect time. And it's hard for me even to grasp this notion here. But I'll leave there somebody else to talk about. Call Sister Mary. See if she can sort of shepherd you through that immaculate, you know. And every time someone calls me father, John, JC asked me to say a prayer. So we're going to have to. I don't want to add too much more to that. I think there's a lot of validity to the conversation. I think, you know, there is a perspective to like, you know, a world. Like, I don't want Bitcoin. Like, I'm totally fine with this taking a long time. Like, I think Bitcoin is way too tiny. Yeah, like, it's a, you know, it's not even a trillion

anymore. We, at a tight as like $1.2 trillion. Like in the grand scheme of the world, that is like entirely too small to be ready to take on the reserve world currency. On the other hand, like, like I would challenge you Joey on these things like I still think there's a lot of validity to what's happening with dollar milkshake theory like DXY is high the 10 years up two years the spreads like growing um you know I'm not here to be the status like it's hardly that but I do want to level some sense of pragmatism and I think like part of what makes me really bullish about Bitcoin is I think it creates for the first time unlike what gold is done or unlike other hard money standards is it creates for an inevitably peaceful outcome in Arthur's case has shown that to me right like they would they wanted to throw the book. at him but they couldn't because nine-tenth's possession or nine-tenth law's possession and like they couldn't take it from there was no gun that they could put they could have killed them and that would have just gone forever and so like that to me i think is like sort of the the throughput or the through line on all of that um i'm going to try to avoid saying a prayer here bang because like again i'm already uninvited to easter father father do it yeah all right we'll uh we'll see if we can end on one

but i'm also being yelled that because people are dming me about the you can't order the Sat-Sanavs card yet. You can get on the wait list. Just go to sat-sendives.com. I'll throw it in the chat. And you will be the first to get them. And we'll work out a, I don't know, discount code for all of Ben's watchers, yada-di-y-a-jada.

So, anyhow. Thanks for your love. I appreciate you guys doing that. Because this has been more of a community project that a business, to be frank, just like really excited about trying to build something for the Bitcoin community. So, okay, I wanted to throw in a couple things here.

Number one, defiant in the chat. Even as fiat dies, the U.S. dollar survives the longest and its equities. Okay, so I've got a question for you guys. One, do you think the U.S. dollar is the last fiat reserve currency? or do you think in the interim there will be a quasi replacement, even if it's a period of uncertainty as to what the reserve currency of the world is? Or there's multiple. And I'll leave my second part for in a moment.

I'm going to let that sit first. Okay, so do you think that the U.S. dollar is the last fiat global reserve currency, or do you think there's no matter how brief a, Jesus Christ, there's a giant insect from the jungle on me? Dude, I'm just waiting for a velociraptor to just come and like eat your head off. I hear the long grass. Stay out of the long grass. I think. but do you think there's potentially an interim or a certain period of what is the global

reserve currency or do you think that eventually we move to something, whether it be Bitcoin or whether it be gold, like a non-fiat something in the interim? Isn't it like energy? Isn't it oil? I think it's got to be oil, right? It seems to me like that's the most logical next step. I don't know how that would look. I am not even close to qualified to talk about how the global reserve asset becomes a commodity.

That's not gold. You might be, John. I don't know. It sounds like you got probably a better handle on this than I do. So I'm curious your thought. I'm just trying to figure out how to not get hit in the nuts five times a day, you know, by toddlers. That's where like a lot of my like throughput is going. I do think the dollar probably lasts the longest.

I think that's the question. I think you're going to see other. currencies fail before you see the dollar fail. The reality is it's hard for Bitcoiners, I think, to like absorb, like to wrap their minds around this. But the rest of the world still craves dollars. I think there's really, really credible arguments that there's a shortage of dollars. The reality of it is like you can't get the growth that you want.

And these are probably longer debates for another Ben show. And Joey's about to kick me in the same set that my kids do. But like, I do. I think that like you'll see other currencies collapse before you see. And now, now what are the last like strength, strength currency's looking? Like, I don't know. But like right now, we're living in pretty wild times. And look at Dixie.

Like Dixie earlier in the year was like 88 or mid last year was like mid 80s, high 80s. What's it? I'm not looking at the chart, but it's at like 98, 99. There was a lot of people calling for, you know, they continued significant and accelerating downward pressure under like 89 last year. And it never happened. And look where we are. It never happened. Listen, I don't have a crystal ball.

I don't know. But I would tell you that like, like wanting for the dollar to fall. right now is not a world I want to live in, man. Like, I'd love to see Bitcoin mature. I'd love to see our adoption of mature. I'd love to see a world where our kids are carrying the torch of the future layers that are built on Bitcoin. I'd love for the world to understand the basic premise of like why Bitcoin is needed and how it's good for everybody, no matter how concentrated they think it is and how it's meant for this cabal of us that bought earlier than they think they bought whatever, right? Like I'm just not ready to see that. I'm not looking for like an accelerationist type of approach.

And so like when I look at these types of questions, I sort of like take like this pragmatic take on like I don't think it's happening anytime soon. And if these wild times are not ones that have precipitated it, then I don't know what will, generally speaking. And in terms of the equity perspective, like the reality is businesses are still going to exist and provide value to humanity. And we will value those businesses, how those things are priced and how we think about them may change. Right. Like you may think about Apple stock in terms of stats. I don't know. But like, you know, anybody that's traveled to a different country for a few days, you start to price the world in their currency. And I think that's basically what happens with Bitcoin. And it's just hard for us to wrap our minds around it. You're bang on. You mentioned something there that we have to really focus on is when the US dollar, if the US dollar collapses, we are going to be in for very dark times.

It's something that I don't want to wish upon anybody. If it's just a reality just because we have no choice, that's fine. But if I have a choice to try to stop it, I'm going to do whatever I can to do so because I don't think it's a world that I really would want to live in it because it's going to be real problems, getting food, getting energy, getting goods, getting everything if the U.S. dollar collapse. It would be just devastating for so many countries, Canada included. Len, I'm going to say that you're right, but I think that might be a possibility. And I have it up on the screen right now. I think this is one of the things that I might agree with David Wong on. He said that China is the biggest trading partner.

He's incorrect here for all countries. But for most countries in the world, China is the largest trading partner. So eventually the petro- yuan is coming. I think we may see that for a time. I think we may see that given the, geopolitical pressures with Russia and the U.S., with U.S. using the SWIFT system as a weapon, I think it's not a certainty, but a possibility. I think that the U.S. has capitalized on its position as the World Reserve currency for a long time.

And it has reaped the benefits of those rewards for a long time. A lot of countries have noticed that pressure. And while not all of them are ready to push back against that, you see two of the other largest geopolitical pressures in the world. You see China and Russia getting pretty friendly. and I don't think Russia is really, it's an issue, but I don't think they're flinching too much at the issues with Swift because I think what's happening is they're looking and they're saying,

we can, we can form some other relationships here. I think other countries are starting to maybe do a little bit of the same. And so I think we could see a period. And dare I say, I bring up another David Wong comment. Oh, no. He said, if you look around the world, countries are already beginning to diversify from the dollar. I don't think he's incorrect there. I don't think he's incorrect.

David, I actually think that's true. however let's bring this forward let's continue down this thought process and i apologize the jungle is getting angry at me it's loud in the background here things are happening bugs are making noises chakadas i think that's what they're called or chirping at me this it's okay we're going to listen okay so i i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that kind of start to say, hey, you know, maybe the U.S. has capitalized upon its position a little too much. And maybe we will go to an alternative. And I think the initial reaction, the knee-jerk reaction, is to go to another nation state.

But I will say, look at what China has done internally. look at the extreme restrictions and social credit scores and all that kind of stuff. And you're trying to appeal to a global audience, a large percentage of which resides in countries, which are relatively free. I say this as a resident of Canada. enough said but most people are able to transact freely

and be able to do what they want with their capitalized as they see fit as long as it's not you know extremely illegal barring Canada where if it's illegal like last week

and legal this you know the week before it changes day to day, but you know, it can, whatever it happens to be. But what I'm getting at is most people will not like the draconian measures of a government that has a social credit scoring system, especially so quickly coming off of something like a system in the U.S. And I mean, there's a lot of capital in the U.S. right now. Capital tends to drive what some of these policies end up being. And let's just step back a little bit to my original point, Bitcoin being like water, routing around.

But isn't that a metaphor for capital in general? Capital in general tends to flow the path of least resistance. It wants to find the easiest way to flow to be free and to provide some semblance of a free market. I think that's kind of what we're seeing. So if I were to guess, I think that we may flow the way of potentially a quasi-uncertain period where it's like what is the world reserve currency

and then flow the path of least resistance, which eventually is Bitcoin. So I'll leave it there. I know that was a bit of rant, but thoughts. It's fine. I think you're right. I think there's going to be uncertainty coming. I don't know if it's going to be another nation state that picks up the tab as far as the reserve. But I think about like, you know, Len said it.

You guys are all saying it. I agree. It's all about how soft can the landing be for this? Because it's very clear they have to land the plane, right? the question is what is that plane landing going to look like for them i don't know somehow i i don't have a ton of fate that it'll be as soft as they anticipate but um you know the other thing i would just mention is that Powell you know made some comments a few weeks ago in one of his press addresses about there can be two reserve currencies i have never heard of two reserve

currencies uh in my lifetime certainly not before and uh you know this is like these are again like these are not what empires with a lot of tread on the tires left in the tank say you know to their their people and to the people of the world it just doesn't it doesn't scream to me confidence john is right about the the dixie and some of the other stuff you mentioned there the macro picture the two and ten like he's right about that stuff but the question is like how much those metrics matter if all the stuff that if all the inputs are you know potentially fudge, right? I don't know.

I'm not sure. I know John's not back yet, but I just want to say that I just tweeted the backstage comments in peeing predicament on Twitter. Nothing.

Nothing. I'm never putting anything in there. But one thing, man, I was just thinking about how I was going to have to deal with HR tomorrow because I'm doing this app framework. And I was like, It's not a conversation.

No word. Nothing. Nothing about your urination tendencies has been posted on Twitter at all. I love you, John. But, guys, I'm going to throw you a curveball.

Before, I know we've all had our reasons, all of this stuff. This is pure speculation slash hopium. I don't care doing it anyways oh boy Max Kaiser yeah

you saw that everybody's nodding I saw this I saw this so IMF basically they signed a deal with Argentina

like extending their debt repayment program it's a generous extended oh you can take a longer to pay kind of thing

but they added in but that Argentina will refuse to encourage the use of cryptocurrency or whatever, whatever it is. I'm not sure if within, like specifically within the country, to their to their constituents, whatever it may be, but they're basically, they're meant to discourage any sort of cryptocurrency use, more or less. Do you think this is legit, though? Like, do you, because like, Max has been a frequent, he's been a frequent guest on crypto deleted tweets in the last like, you know, two weeks.

I don't know. I like Max. I think he's a, he's a firecracker. But, uh, yeah, it's a big, you know, claim here. So this is what I'm wondering. And just to get down to the like nitty gritty of the tweet is, is the title of the actual article is IMF does not want to allow another country in Latin America to adopt Bitcoin. And Max retweeted this article and said, too late, bitch. And then he had the flag of Honduras sitting there.

And previously on other streams, on other news reports, people asked him, what is going to be the next country after El Salvador? To which he replied, I can't say because I already know more or less. like I'm paraphrasing here, but he basically said, like, I already know what the next country is, but I can't say yet. The Bitcoin 22, 2022 conference is coming up. Obviously, that's where the initial announcement for El Salvador was made last year. We have some keynotes. We have the president of El Salvador, Naib Buceli, going to be there. Jack making another announcement immediately thereafter as kind of like the keynote speakers of the end of the

actual event on Friday like how much credence do we give this like this is like obviously this is this is not very cryptic he's saying it does IMF doesn't want another country in Latin America to adopt Bitcoin he's saying

too late bitch with the fucking flag of Honduras below it he's not exactly using a lot of tax here How much credence are we giving this? Like is Max basically like leaking the major announcement of Bitcoin 2020? Or is this he either is he's either the Oracle, the deal maker or the laughing stock one or the other. But I actually think it's probably real.

It seems to me that like Latin America is a natural play. I think where there's control and authority and more centralized control and authority and where there's more. desperation is going to be the X and Y access to nation state adoption. So I have no idea. I'm not asking Max myself, but I think there's probably some credibility to it. Otherwise, can I come back on it a few weeks and be like, yo, this guy was talking some bullshit? He's done, right? If he's wrong about this, like, what's he got left?

How many trips do you have left to cash in? I don't know. I mean, listen, man, I've seen a lot of duns. And like, I remember, like, I remember folks that were like be cashers back in the day that are still like prevalent Bitcoin. And I don't even care, by the way, about any of that stuff. So that, like, that isn't something I, like, care to register about. But I hope there's, I hope it's right.

I hope it's real. Like, I'd love to see more nation-state adoption. So I don't know if I'm just biased and rooting for that outcome. So we have to track the president of Honduras's private jet and see if there's going to be any action on the date for Bitcoin conference. If you see he's flying into Miami, then yeah, we have some, it's very probable that this is true. Let's drag musks because we know there's a bot for that. So, like, has he been, you know, although we should see an uptick in Doge, I think.

Is that how this shit works? I don't know. I'm so confused now. I don't know. TikTok, man. TikTok, TikTok. TikTok. I don't know.

Like, I mean, it's not entirely infeasible that he just gets, like, you know, piped in. Listen, I don't want to, like, feed into this rumor. Like, I don't want to be part of, like, having to own it. But I don't think he needs to actually show up in person. and to make this type of an announcement. Like I remember a couple months ago, a couple weeks ago, like naive was in Turkey and everyone was expecting for Turkey

with their inflationary like environment and their currency trouble to like announce something and yet we haven't seen anything there. I don't know, man. Like I also don't care, right? Like one of the things that like I'm bullish about is just like the zen-like feeling of like, whatever. If it happens, it happens.

If it doesn't, it doesn't. If you're smart enough to be able to make those moves, then do it. And if not, then, you know, we'll see you when you. do adopt it. And, you know, it just won't be you that they make the statue after Mr. Honduran president or prime minister. I love that you said that because I guess jumping back to my original point of like

all the privacy stuff. And I was talking about Jack Dorsey following samurai wallet. And one of the lead devs, the immediate reply to that tweet from TK. Dev was the like Fox, you know, like did you do that da da da da da na da da na da na da na na it was that but instead of like fox it says like nobody cares and so like one of the lead devs a samurai wallet being like who fuck cares we're still doing what we're doing um and i think that's that's perfect for bitcoin like anybody can come to it whenever it pleases.

Anybody can choose to use whatever tools are available to them. And in the end, Bitcoin just continues being water, routing around whatever the fuck obstacles are in front of it. And in the end, to John's point, there will be a subset of the population that will have always been present during those circumstances. and there will be a dwindling subset of the population that has known what came prior. I think that's the important takeaway here.

So I think what I'm going to do, gentlemen, is I'm going to do a round of final thoughts. And I'm going to challenge you a little bit here. Because what I'm going to ask you is if you want to give any final thoughts on any topics that we've chatted about this event, but also I want to challenge you to recommend any piece of content not mentioned in this show, Joey. We already know we need to read Mr. Hay's article. Any article, any book, any video, anything not currently mentioned in the show, what would you like people to check out? Something that has had an impact on yourself or somebody you know.

I implore you to recommend it. But first I will say final thoughts and then recommendations. Len, you are first on my screen. I'm sorry to put you on the spot, but take it away, my friend. Final thoughts and recommendations. Final thoughts, buy Bitcoin. Nothing else, nothing more just buy Bitcoin.

And if I can recommend one thing to everybody, watch the Canadian Bitcoiners. That's it. I echo that 100%. You guys need to, what do you do? There's like, there's a lot of people watching this right now. I want to say, if you're not subscribed to the Canadian Bikorners podcast on all of the platforms, obviously, like, we're on YouTube right now, but maybe you're listening to the pod and the podcasting platform of your choice, I'm pretty sure Canadian Bikourner's podcast is available on all of them. Maybe if Joey and Len are smart, you're even able to stream them sats.

I'm looking for nods of approval. I see nods of approval. You could stream them sets on Breeze wallet, on, on, on, uh, fountain. Fountain. Are you guys on sphinx? Are you got any of you guys? Because I don't do a podcast. I don't, I don't have it.

I think you need to know, like, I, like the guy to know is like obviously the Adam Curry, but I think you need to know someone in Bitcoin, maybe you can get you in. Like, Odell could probably get you in. In Spinks? You're not at Spinks? No, dude, just reach out to Paul, man. They're like, sending a DM. I'll connect you.

These cool as hell. He's like the coolest dude ever. Because we did want to do that. The streaming SaaS thing is dope for content. And it's just a good way to grow Bitcoin, I think. Yeah, hit me up, man. I'll connect you with Paul. Sure.

Let's do it. Another use case. And again, like, it's, it's, you know, if you're not following these guys, I've got to say, go back to I'm going to say go back to my first time having the gents from the Canadian Bitcoinist podcast on the stream

because I got to say Len brought the fucking receipts they were trailing out the door he had stats out the asshole I don't know what was going on but it was great I enjoyed it thoroughly so if I can use this platform to

funnel all the people into the Canadian Bitcoin is podcast. I don't care if you're Canadian. I don't give a shit. Subscribe to the podcast. Hey, Joey O'Lena. Either are you in Toronto? I'm close. Yeah, we're both close.

All right. So next time I'm in the in the Aenus of Canada, but it's fine. It's fine. Next time I'm out in Mississauga. I'll hit you guys up, man. I'm further than Mississauga. Lennon is closer than that. But yeah, man, like, that goes for anybody. Like, I'm, uh, I'm always down to meet Bitcoiners.

I'm like recovering from, uh, Achilles tear right now, but won't be much longer. I've had an Achilles tear too, man. That's nasty. It's not funny. Yeah. I'm in like, this is like my sixth week, I think. Sixth week. So I get to boot off two weeks from now probably.

John, you're practically Canadian now. Yeah, man, I know. I'm about to go home and have some like, you know, some bad blues or something. That'd be real crazy. Yeah, come have some protein. I think it'll be fine. I'm going to spend some moose shekels and I'm ready to rock, man. Just be careful what you say.

Yeah. Be careful what you say. There are people watching and they can do stuff to your bank account that you may not watch. John doesn't have a Canadian bank account. John.

Joey and Len, are you going to be in Miami by chance? Are you going to? Not this time around. Oh, gentlemen. I know. I know. Honestly, Ben,

I would have gone. If I didn't mess up my leg, I would have been there. I would left Len at home. Okay. Well, I will do my best to make it out. I do have family. close to Hamilton.

That's why I am. Okay, there you go. Okay, so I'm not too far from Hamilton. So maybe I'll try to make it out. I will see what is happening. But I'm going to rotate it around. John, final thoughts. And, oh, wait, Len, did you give a recommendation of places to, of what to see?

Yeah, Canadian bitcoiners. What else is? Great. Obviously. I'm thinking like, Yeah, maybe I need to give more of a disclaimer on this thing. I was like, let's get some non-contributor content. You know, it's okay.

I've recognized this is what happened with Osabi is a problem arose and somebody corrected for the problem that they perceived. So I've now seen the problem of you self-promoting. I need to now specify. I will correct for that bug in the programming. John, obviously, what you were talking about earlier, what was it called SAT? Sats, sentives. Yeah, man, so I'd love for everybody to get some sat incentives card for their kids.

We'll love feedback. Feel free to go and sign up. There's a wait list. We should be getting cards out in the next three or four weeks. I'm super excited about this. I expect to lose a ton of money and still super excited about this. But yeah, never felt so compelled to build something. And it's just like something I wanted for my kids.

I appreciate you plugging it. But enough for the show. I do want to recommend some content. I think there's a lot of like super, super underrated bitcointers that don't really attract attention to themselves, but are incredible thinkers and are people that you can learn from. Two, that one, and biased is a longtime friend of mine, Joe Carlos Sari. I think everybody should be following Joe Carlos Sari. I think he's one of the smartest people.

people in the space, understands it's happening regulatory, he has a really good macro perspective, understands the protocol and just like, has been around a really long time. It just has really pragmatic takes. And I'm a big fan of Matthew Pines, who I've only met on Bitcoin Twitter. And I think people should follow them.

I love listening to Joey and Len. I'm honored to be able to hang out with you guys. I caught some episodes here and there, but certainly love your content. It's entertaining. And I think equal parts entertaining, equal parts insightful. I would tell you to follow

Ben, but you're already here listening to this. So much from that. But, yeah, man, I don't have any really, I don't have any additional final takes, man. Like, I encourage people to get to Bitcoin's end, like continue to create monetary energy, continue not worrying about all the things you can't control, park your money into Bitcoin when you think you, you know, reach that, you know, level of comfort that is beyond what you need for your daily life. Or if you're able to live like Ben and live completely off of Bitcoin, too, by all means,

do that, man. So I'm not here to, like, tell you how to live. But ultimately, yeah, those are the party thoughts. create value and spend less than you earn there you go man love it joey final thoughts uh nothing to add to the the group tonight you guys you guys crush has always been a pleasure uh meeting you john for the first time uh looking forward to see sat incentives grow and and see what you got going on ben thanks for having us of course uh i'll start i'm going to start a skincare twitter account spin off uh after the show and uh we'll talk talk about

how to look 22 when you're 34. No, but seriously, there's a number of podcasts I listen to that are like tangentially related to Bitcoin. The one that I, I've been enjoying the most last little while is Strong Towns. What I didn't listen to for a long time. It's from Chuck Morone. Yeah, you like that one, Ben? It's a, it's a good, good podcast about building community. I don't agree with everything Chuck says, but the guess he gets are pretty good. And the, the idea is about, you know, localism driving good things for, for the, for the community and for the sort of broader area around these strong communities is really it's hit home for me and uh i would suggest giving it a listen they're short episodes like 30 40 minutes so you know

you could have listened to five of them in the time uh you listened to us in the jungle tonight but uh i'm glad you stuck around for the for the entire time it's been a been a blast solid uh uh solid recommendation if i'm not mistaken charles behone junior is the author of strong towns is that correct yeah yeah so i i got on him from Marty Bent, obviously. And good book. Check out Charles L. Mahone. Sorry, Marron.

Maron. Moron. Maron. Maron. M-A-R-O-H-N Jr. And so his book, funny enough, if I'm reading this book as I'm on the outskirts of a large city as they're putting in a new suburb, but basically his book details the unsustainability of large sprawling cities and how the tax money from every new suburb barely covers, if not at all, covers

the initial creation of the suburb before then demanding more capital on the creation of subsequent suburbs and the, uh, all of the resources necessary to keep that suburb running and up to date, uh, all of the, you know, all of the upkeep and everything. So basically, if you're living in the suburbs, like myself,

the implication is that every 10 to 20 years, you're going to have to move out to a further suburb in fiat world, uh, in order. to maintain that standard of living of a new house, upkept, uh, uh, neighborhoods, everything being like nice and new and, and, and the infrastructure and stuff, all that, all that stuff. Yeah. It's it's the, the core of his message is localism, but you're right. He talks a lot about the, the financial, like, insta, insustainability of suburbanism,

basically. Like, you just, it can't, it cannot carry on forever. It doesn't make sense. And I think the reason Marty had him on, they had a good show together. That was probably a couple of years ago now. But the reason Marty had them on is because Marty wanted to get through to him. Like the reason this is a problem is because of the money, man.

It's not about anything else except the money. I think he's right about that. It's a Ponzi. Yeah. That's what it is. Suburbs are suburbs are not Lindy. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very interesting because he goes down, he basically goes down the route of like, what is holding up this standard of living for everyone and basically like the inner city and he has a great example of Detroit as like the first booming town in America like creating all of the the automobiles for all of America and then like the rotting of the inner city

as as push came to shove and his his general thought is that this will take place in a lot of major American cities as it kind of like wroughts from the inside out as as people try to live on less than they're actually earning, aka like the center of the city is creating the value and then gradually as you try to exploit that from the outer edges, it becomes a problem. So anyways, I'll leave that there. Feel free to read Strong Towns. I think that's a great read.

It's a solid, and I haven't listened to the podcast, but the book was great as I sat on my front porch watching them create new homes out of nothing from the fruit of people's labor. You know, made me feel bad about myself, but that's okay. we will wrap it up there gentlemen i've got to say thoroughly enjoyed it obviously land joey john you've all been on the show previously there's a reason i brought you back you're all fantastic so thank you so much for being on i appreciate all of you uh and i will see you again soon um i'll see you in miami in a few weeks man yeah yes yes i will see you there publicly no i'm just kidding yeah

And Len and Joey, I will make an effort to get out to Ontario and see you guys both soon. So guys, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. All right. See you guys. Be good. Cheers. All right.

Everybody's still watching. Thank you so much for watching. I am still in the jungle. Still here. Yeah. Great time. I know it's Thursday night. Normally Friday.

Always the best time of my week. I'll be doing some traveling. more with the family. But I appreciate you all joining me here on a Thursday evening. And yeah, really important to me. Thank you guys. I really, really do appreciate it. As always, like, subscribe, share, all those things.

Super, super important. All the guys that were on the show, their Twitter handles are in the show notes down below, as well as stuff that they do, whether it would be Canadian Bitcoin and Canadian Bitcoiners podcast or Sat Centives. They're all linked there, the Twitter handles, and you can go down those rabbit holes as you see fit. And outside of that, if you want to hit up the previously mentioned sponsors down below,

ShakePay, Lead, Bit Refill, Keystone, Bill Fottle, they're all down there. I did drop a tutorial on Payneems in Sparrow Wallet on Monday. go back and check that out because privacy. And of course, if you want to, if you've been watching the show for a while and you enjoy what you see, you can always drop me a Bitcoin tip at my strike page or via Twitter if you see fit. But the strike page is strike. Dot me slash BTC sessions.

When you get there, you can type in any amount you like. And when you hit the tip button, you'll be greeted with a lightning invoice. or if you tap the arrow to the right, a regular Bitcoin QR code. With that, I am out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening, wherever you may be. See you guys next time for your daily session.