BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Giacomo Zucco, Roman Reher, Ioni Appelberg ep359

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

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What is going on, everybody? Welcome to the show, another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish. I'm still gallivanting around the globe. I will be home in about 10 days. I've been away for a while now, but it's been fun. And we're keeping it going, even though I'm on the road. I've got an awesome, awesome panel today that I'm very excited about. We'll get them all in momentarily and do some introductions. But of course, this is live. I think my internet connection is pretty, good this time around, but you never know. You never know what might happen. So I gotta give the disclaimer here. It's live, anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live.

Okay. We'll do it live. Fuck it. Do it live. I can, I'll write it, and we'll do it live. The thing sucks. Yeah. Of course, if you have not already, please do like,

subscribe, share, all those things. It really help a ton. this show in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. Before we bring in our guests, let's take a quick look at where we are in the market right now. This is timechain calendar.com. We're sitting at 29,455 U.S. dollars per coin. A single U.S. dollar will pick you up 3,395 sets. In terms of fees, it looks like, Next block, 24 sats per byte, if you're willing to weigh a little bit, 12 sats perj, Mempool is purging anything just below six sats.

And in terms of Bitcoin mined, 19.45 million Bitcoin have been mined to date. That is 92.64% of the total supply. Shout out to sponsors to the show, hoddle, hoddle.com. If you're buying Bitcoin and you've got a few priorities in mind like peer-to-peer trading, instant self-custy, no KYC, head over here. You can sign up with an email address, nothing more, scroll down really simple, pick a currency, pick a payment method, pick an amount,

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They have entry-level devices all the way up to what I'm using, which is the server pure, which is a beast. So anyways, check them out as well. Links are done below. Anyways, enough of my rambling. I need to get in all of my guests here. I want to welcome, Roman, I want to welcome, Jocamo. I want to welcome, Ione.

And I'm very excited to have all of you here. I think a quick round of introductions is in order before we get started. And then we'll just dive right in. Anyways, Roman, I'm going to toss it to you. We met at a gym in Prague in a hotel. And I came in for a workout and you were there. And we got chatting and here we are. But good to see you, man.

Can you give yourself a little introduction for anybody not familiar? Yeah, thank you for being here. It was so funny to meet you in the gym because you didn't know me and I recognized your hair color. And I thought, oh, is that the guy from PDC sessions? Yes, it was in Prague. And yeah, I'm Roman from Germany. I have a German-speaking Bitcoin YouTube channel, Bitcoin only for sure. No trading, no al-coins and all that stuff.

It's more about economics and sometimes technical part. And for sure, all the mind-blowing things Bitcoin will bring to. our society. So yeah, I think it's most orange-pilling YouTube channel in the German area, but it's focused on German language. Like, yeah, it's very rarely that I speak in English. So sorry if my English is bad, but yeah. I think it's great, man, and it's good to see quality educators from across the pond. So welcome to the show. Glad to have you. Jacomo, I needed to have you on for diversity. So I'm glad to have you, man.

Can you give yourself a little introduction? Yeah, my Oxfordian pronunciation can compensate the German accent. So it's perfect British English. So of course, I'm Italian, not English speaking, not native English speaking as well. In my fiat life, I had a degree in physics, and I was working at technology consultant in Accenture, but then in 2013, I went Bitcoin only. I did several things. I participated at the launch of a green address that then became Bloxream Green. I did some mining stuff. I did a lot of bullshit like food tracking blockchains back then. But then I moved to Bitcoin

only. I created a laboratory research lab in Milan that was pretty good and pretty large. We hosted the Bitcoin, scaling Bitcoin conference in Milan, the bigger meetup back then in continental Europe. And we helped to develop start like the bold standard for lightning or open-term stamps with Ricardo Casate and Peter Todd. The very start of BDK library with Alec Cofilini, the RGB standard, which was then copied by Taro. So a lot of cool stuff. We really had a great years. Then lately, I moved to like a freelance job as a consultant, and I'm a very small investor in a few startups, advisor in a few startups like Setsback, rely, but very, very small participation in those.

And I'm moving as well to education. What I'm trying to do in the last months of my life is to move from consultancy, which is great but boring into education. So I organized the course in El Salvador, and I co-organize the Plum Bill Yulgano summer school and now I'm trying to put all these education stuff together. So that's probably my focus for the next month. I love that. Education is incredibly important and there can never be too much of it. So I'm glad to hear. I'm glad to hear the pivot. Awesome. Well, Iioni, welcome. And you're

going to have to remind me how to pronounce that because I'm so self-conscious about it. I can hear that you are. That's fine. That's fine. It's perfectly fine. Most people are. So my name is Joni Appleberg based in Sweden. And we met at Prague as well for the first time. Yeah, we had a great time at the bar. That was fun. Yes, yes. 100%.

It was a late night. It was a late night, yes. And well, I am, I think I might be the only one here who has one feet in Bitcoin and one foot in Bitcoin and one foot still in the Fiat life. I am a Bitcoin YouTuber like you guys. My channel is mostly about the philosophy behind Bitcoin. And I am also an author. I recently published Abundance Through Scarcity, which is selling quite well.

We published it, we released it during the Prague conference. and in my field life I work as a medical doctor oh interesting I'm trying to pivot more and more to I'm transitioning more and more to Bitcoin that's really cool I picked up a copy of your book while I was there unfortunately I don't think I got it signed by you

so I'm going to have to fix that yeah let's fix that yeah I'll uh I'll next time I see you I'll make sure I have it in tow but it does look very nice. The artwork on it is beautiful as well. And so, yeah, it's a welcome addition to my bookshelf. So, well, gentlemen, thank you for being here. We're going to kick off the meat of the show now.

Of course, everybody in the chat, welcome. Love to have you here. And the chat is live to the audience as well, for better or worse. We don't censor here. So yeah, so we've got the chat going off to the side. If I see anything super relevant to the conversation, then I'll highlight it at the bottom there. But for those I'm familiar with the show, this is why are we bullish? Really simple flow to the show and concept.

Basically, each one of us comes with a reason for being bullish, something that we're excited about in and around Bitcoin. And it can really be anything. It can be a personal experience, a news, item, an app, a device, really anything. And basically the flow of the show is one of us is going to present a reason why they are bullish. That's their chance to rant and chat about whatever is exciting them currently. After that, altogether, we're going to riff on that reason, questions, comments,

wherever the rabbit hole takes us. And then finally, third, we're going to rotate to the next person until we all get a turn. So reason, riff, rotate. Simple. I will get us started this time and I'll reiterate to the panelists. I always have to do this just in case, but make sure you don't drop your reason early. I will explicitly ask you why you're bullish. So I'm going to start off with my reason for being bullish and then we'll just start riffing here.

So I'm particularly bullish in and around human rights with Bitcoin as a tool for that. And I say this because I've kind of started working more closely with the Human Rights Foundation and trying to assist in wherever Bitcoin can be a useful tool in those instances. So there's a lot of times where there's dissidents in a particular spot where they might have the threat of, you know, censor transactions, shutdown bank accounts, all of those kinds of things. And obviously, as Bitcoiners, we know that Bitcoin is censorship resistant. We know that there's nobody there to tell you no as long as you're taking self-custody and you're using Bitcoin as it was meant to be used.

And so human rights to activists are beginning slowly to clue into this, largely thanks to the work of Alex Gladstein and others at the Human Rights Foundation that, you know, drew that connection and saw it as a useful tool there. And, you know, I went to the Oslo Freedom Forum earlier this year for, wasn't my first time attending, and it was a fantastic event, and it was really cool to see those connections. But in chatting kind of behind the scenes with different human rights groups, it's it's I'm I'm kind of selfishly excited about it in the way that I get to relive some of those aha moments where I see people start to piece together like oh wow this is actually this is actually super useful I didn't realize that that this was a feature of Bitcoin or or or even the the last positive stuff of trying to troubleshoot because like Bitcoin is sure it can you can transfer value.

globally, more or less instantly for very cheap. And nobody can censor those transactions. But there's a whole other mess of hurdles that exist. Once you transfer that value globally, once it arrives to its destination, depending on the locale, how do you actually utilize that value in a way where you can get what you need locally? And that's very different depending on where you are. Sometimes you got to figure out some sort of a peer-to-peer thing locally and get the local currency and then get what you need. Or sometimes there are peer-to-peer exchanges. Sometimes you can just get gift cards. Sometimes you can just go direct to businesses that accept Bitcoin.

But it's kind of a mixed bag wherever you go. And so those are the things that in the background are starting to be worked out, are starting to be grappled with. How do we, yes, we've now got the permission list. censorship-resistant global value transfer available to us. But what the hell do we do with it once we get it? And those are gaps that aren't quite bridged everywhere yet and are going to require work. But what I'm seeing is that the work is being done. And people are starting to say, okay, what can we do here?

How can we piece this together? How can we do this in an adversarial environment where the government or various organizations don't want us to be successful? How do we work around that? And I think that's something that is incredibly valuable and that is getting more accessible to these people. And those with the most to lose are always the ones to jump on to these. technologies first, or sorry, with the least to lose.

Like basically like you're already kind of screwed. And so you need to rely on something like Bitcoin. But I see it getting more robust. And I can't give a ton of detail on that because obviously I don't want to, to burn anybody that's actively working behind the scenes and is a dissident or anything like that. But I can say that I've had a number of calls and I have more calls happening soon where I actually get to work with these people that have real world problems. And Bitcoin in some way, shape, or form is actually beginning to solve these problems. And so that's what I'm excited about.

And I know that was a little vague, but hopefully it gives enough for you guys to kind of maybe dive in a little bit. But I'm going to open it up to you guys and ask if you've had any, if you've kind of seen what Alex Gladysen is doing, your thoughts on kind of Bitcoin as a human rights tool. Where are you guys at with this line of thinking? Anybody can jump in. So I will start to say that I always, I'm always happy to see Bitcoin going back to be associated with ideas. and goals and not just tools. Technology is very important, but the typical, you know,

there is that meme where the Indian guy is all dressed up in gold and it's like, I'm here for the technology. So the joke would be that he's actually there to get rich, but not for the technology, which is the important thing. But I would argue that not even the technology is the important thing, not being rich nor the technology. The important thing is the goal we want to reach with this technology, which is exactly censorship resistance and like defense from attempt at central planning with money and

confiscation inflation but those are the real ultimate goals and technology is a very important tool we have to get back there in order to use bitcoin correctly and not be confiscated not to be inflated away not to be scammed we have to learn we have to push ourselves out of our comfort zone in order to learn key management, inheritance, good tools, best practices. So we have to vet a technical proposals at some capacity. The community has to understand if this fork proposal is good or not. So it's great that technology is discussed. And there is no other community where engineers have the same kind of respect from others as in Bitcoin.

But that's the tool. The real thing beyond the tool is the goal, which is, exactly individual sovereignty. Another thing I would say is that usually either you defend these ideas

in a way which is very logically consistent and very correct but not very mainstream so not very connected with the political correctness of the day and then you are

consistent, you are right, but you tend to be seen as contrarian or you go mainstream but then you lose the of your message, like you start to promote ESG bullshit or stuff like that. Instead, the Human Rights Foundation I think is doing a very excellent job and staying

in between the bad cop and the good cop. They are using rhetoric, rightly so, which is very close to what is politically acceptable. Like, nobody is, everybody in the Fiat world is against financial inclusion, but nobody can say that explicitly. But they must pretend they are for financial inclusion, for women rights in the Middle East or against colonialism. So they have to pretend they are those things.

And so the rhetoric is acceptable for mainstream politics, but also they are not selling away the soul of what really matters. The people involved there are actually they are not wasting time on some kind of environmentalist or like a racial bullshit. They're focusing on real stuff like privacy and rights. So I think it's a very good reason to be to be bullish. Yeah. I like it.

Anybody else want that? You want I, Ioni? No, so go ahead. Okay. Thank you, man. Yeah, I think our problems here are not on the transaction layer. Like, we have good payment methods and most people use this. But I think our problems will be more in the future.

Like, and we are probably censored in digital payments and CBDCs and all the stuff and probably then it's too late to get bitcoin like something payment method here so the adoption will probably come from very poor developing countries so these people has a need today for a censorship resistant transaction layer not so much on a inflation hedge that's more the case here so i think which which alex gladstein want to say with with this article at Bitcoin Magazine, Check Your Financial Privilege, it's based on this topic. And I think it's so important for this mention for this people today, but for us in the future. So I think the solutions which we see today, which are developed also by grants giving to Bitcoin developers by the Human Rights Foundation,

will be solutions for us in the future and for the people in this very poor countries today. And I think Jacomo is a little bit right, that they don't want to, the Fiat world don't want the financial inclusion. But the problem I see is that the people in this countries don't have bank accounts because there aren't banks. They don't have bank accounts because they don't trust the banks. That's the point. And so if we create better products than the Fiat world, and I'm pretty sure the free market

will create better products and the plan. market. So I'm pretty sure Bitcoin will lead in these countries and I'm pretty sure Bitcoin will be money in the future because of this and because of the work from the Human Rights Foundation. And yeah, I'm bullish because of this. All right. So I'm very happy that you bring this, the humanitarian perspective up then because I believe that this is one of the least developed narratives, but one of the most important narratives of Bitcoin. It is not at all in the mainstream consciousness yet. And we need to bring the humanitarian perspective of Bitcoin into the mainstream consciousness. I think that is very important.

Because Bitcoin really, as you said, the technology is not really, as you said, Gio Giacomo, the technology is not really what's important here. The important is that it is an effective expression of the best ideals in the world. It is the most inclusive. technology that we have. I mean, for instance, when it comes to our increasing surveillance in the world, our financial privacy, our financial lives is the most intimate aspect of our lives, whether you believe it or not. And just to have Bitcoin protect your financial privacy,

as well as onboarding the exclusion, the exclusion. 4 billion people onto the global economy. I mean, the downstream effects of that are going to be enormous. So it benefits everybody. If we can connect 8 billion people on a single open, neutral monetary network like Bitcoin that has money that cannot be corrupted to steal from you and that cannot be corrupted to spy on you, that's a new world.

And that's a world I want to work. even and that makes it very bullish and we really need to underlying this humanitarian perspective. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I want to jump back to something Roman said. It's interesting thinking that some of these nations and some of these people in nations where Bitcoin is most needed right now because they are, They're most held back or they've got the most amount of financial oppression upon them that they could basically pave the way for what Western countries have to deal with later. Because, again, the ones with the most to lose right now will end up being the countries that are the most in control.

right now in terms of currency and their ability to manipulate it to extract value from their constituents. Those are the places where if shit hits the fan, those ones are the ones that are going to have the most of a knee-jerk reaction that can be the most difficult to navigate as a person living there. Or, you know, if they take it to that level, yeah, we could stand to learn a lot from how these early adopters that are already in dire straits are using Bitcoin and learn from their successes as well as their failures to hedge in the future to perhaps almost save ourselves a little bit. But I guess we'll see.

I don't know. Do you guys think it gets there? Do you think it gets to that point? Who? Well, whoever wants to dive in, I don't know. Do you think we get to that point where? We have to look at how the people that are navigating Bitcoin right now, we have to learn lessons from them to.

I'm pretty sure because I think Bitcoin is a fair money. Like it's not equal to everyone. It's fair to everyone. So people which are diving in today are these people with the biggest need today. So I think these are the biggest winners from Bitcoin. like it's going up forever, Laura. And when it's going up forever, the early adopters are the biggest winners. So the people who are the biggest need are probably the countries and the nations and the people which are today the poorest people.

And probably Bitcoin would bring a little bit more fair level worldwide and new opportunities for, for example, monetize energy in some very poor, sections of a country where no electricity is today and so on. So I'm pretty sure we will learn a lot of this because we are in such a privilege situation today that we don't see which problems our fiat system will bring us in the future. And I'm pretty sure this will be for a lot of people very hard to realize that they probably missed this very important technology. Yeah, I think so. Awesome. All right. Well, I don't want to spend too much time on my topic here. What I will say is if anybody hasn't kind of seen what the HRF is working on and what they've been doing, go check them out. Also, if you get the chance to visit the Aaslo Freedom Forum next time around, I think they're doing it in June next year. It's well worth attending. And it's really kind of cool. and refreshing as a Bitcoiner to go to an event where Bitcoin is present,

but it's not a Bitcoin event. It's just there in the background as a tool because it's relevant. And I think we need more events like that that are not Bitcoin events, but Bitcoin is there because it's useful in some way, shape, or form. But anyways, I'm going to kind of put a pin in that one. And we're going to rotate through, first of all, again, Thanks again to everybody in the chat. Love the messages.

Keep them coming and give this a share. We'll get even more people in here. But we're going to do a rotation. I'm going to toss it to actually Roman first. And I'm just going to cue you up with the simple question. Why are you bullish? Take it away. I'm bullish because the whole financial sentiment is changing about Bitcoin,

like the financial giants. They think, oh, they are good sites on Bitcoin, which we can use. And that's correct. I think everyone can find a good thing on Bitcoin. But like to reference to Alex Gletstein again, like in this book title, it said, Bitcoin is a Troy and Horse for Freedom. I don't think they realize this. And yeah, probably they think they can control Bitcoin, but they can't.

And I think it's a Troy and horse. for us for for everyone and now they think yeah we bring regulation and all the stuff and bring this right up and i'm bullish because so i think we have some some partners some bitcoins in in in there like in the cc i i know it's a it's a not very common view on this but uh i think gregnzler is something like a bit more maximalist everything he's doing is uh yeah kicking out all this outcoin stuff, this gambling stuff or bringing this in a regulation in a

very regulated part. And he's kind of defending Bitcoin from created by individuals or institutes like create paper Bitcoin because they are not backed. They sell probably Bitcoin Spot

ETFs which are not backed by real Bitcoin. And so he's stopping these spot ETFs And he's saying, hey, make it sure that this Bitcoin ETFs you sell are really backed by Bitcoin. So I think this is kind of defending Bitcoin's natural. Yeah, this is this $21 million. You know what I mean?

So I think that's not far away from which we hope when Bitcoin is going to the financial giant financial industry. that yeah, I think this is one of our biggest risks that we get a lot of paper Bitcoin that we blow up the market with Bitcoin, which are not really there. And I think the SEC is defending this a little bit. So this is my view on this. And I think we can be bullish on this. The IMF says, okay, let's let's forbid Bitcoin. Let's find rules with Bitcoin.

We learned we can't ban this. China learned this by banning the mining. making nothing except of proving Bitcoin is resistant. So I think in the end, we can be very bullish that Bitcoin is going to the mainstream like this. But this is probably a question to you. Do you think we reach the mainstream or is it just knocking on the door and we will be kicked out soon? Interesting. So, okay, so somebody in the chat, Mark said, is Gary a closet Bitcoin Maxi?

I think he's an overt Bitcoin Maxi, more or less, in terms of like his view on, you know, what's what's a secure. I mean, I don't know. I'm a little torn on on on Gary. I think, I think Mr. Gensler is, I think I think he's just saying it how it is. Like if you, whether or not you agree with what the SEC does, the rules as they're laid out, if you're going to go by those rules, it's pretty clear what's a security and what's not. That said, I'm also torn on the, on the like the big institutions coming to Bitcoin. because on one hand, it's like, great, you know, more people are, are kind of recognizing value in Bitcoin.

But also, I think there's a, you know, like you were saying, more scrutiny on reserves and stuff like that. I think that's a good thing. Isn't actually going to happen? I don't know. We'll see. That would be great, you know, if they made sure it was one to one. But, like, who are you trusting for that? I think at the end of the day, though, the Trojan horse point that you're making, I think it

very much applies in the way that you said, where you said they think they're going to be able to control Bitcoin, but they won't. I think that comes in two forms. One, oh, we're going to rope it into a, you can only transact in the way we say. And I think it's pretty clear. Like, that's not possible. But I think also there's a way that a lot of these institutions believe they're going to be able to continue to play fiat games with people's money when they're dealing with Bitcoin. I think that's the bigger Trojan horse because we've seen it at larger and larger scales with like exchanges, right?

We saw, you know, Mount Gawks and Quadriga and like FTCS and many others. I think next you're just going to see banks that are like, yeah, we can custody Bitcoin for people. And then they're going to fuck around and find out. Like, they're going to do the same thing, I think. And they're going to and there's going to be problems. I think there's going to be times where banks are like, we just don't. I mean, we saw a prime trust. That's a trust company.

But what happened when, what will happen when they fuck around with Bitcoin and they falling on their nose and the state will print money to save them? So they destroy Fiat because they fuck around with Bitcoin. So okay, Bitcoin even winning, right? Well, yeah. And that's what I think. I think that's where the Trojan horse thing is most on the nose is, is you, you fuck around, you find out, you got to print some more fiat.

to buy back the sats at a higher price because you've devalued your currency. And that that snowballs, right? Like that if you fuck around enough, you can't print enough Fiat to buy back the Bitcoin you've lost if it's a big enough loss. So like I, I'm not saying that's going to be like the explicit reason for Fiat's downfall. I think it's doing a great job of that on its own. But like at some point, you're not going to be able to buy. with that toilet paper that you've just printed.

And so, you know, like there's an end game to this is what I'm getting. I'm curious what I want to hear what Yoni and John Crow has to say. I mean, ultimately, ultimately Bitcoin doesn't care about financial institutions. Still, we have to zoom out and look at the larger perspective. and like if in the process of a hyper-bitconization or some sort of Bitcoinization of the economy, I mean, it's inevitable that financial institutions are going to get involved. And we are at that stage now. And I think that I think the Bitcoin is ready for it.

In the early stages, in the beginning, Satoshi did not want WikiLeaks to use Bitcoin because it had not matured enough to withstand potential attacks. But I believe now that Bitcoin is big enough to withstand attacks and it is big enough to withstand scrutiny from financial institutions. And they can use Bitcoin however they like. Bitcoin is for everybody. It's for you. It's for me.

It's for the poor. It's for the rich. It's for financial institutions. And everybody can use it. as they please. And this is just one of the many, let's say, milestones on the road to a more significantly bitconized economy. And it might in the longer term not be much of a milestone, but I mean, to us now, it seems

that it might be, if not for anything else, as you said Roman, that it really brings Bitcoin into the mainstream. It's a new vehicle to really bring about Bitcoin's presence in mainstream society. I agree. Jocamo. I was going to answer to this question, but then I noticed that you defended Greek beaches over Italian ones in the chat, so I'm just

leaving the stream right now. I don't believe. I don't believe in national states, so it doesn't matter to me. So let me try to push back a little bit to try to be contrarian just for the sake of conversation. I don't like, culturally speaking, the association between Bitcoin maximalism and regulators like Gensler, mostly because Bitcoin maximalist is the descriptive idea that money eventually will converge over scarcity, instead of just going through infinite replication, because otherwise you will not have scarcity,

and that since money will converge there descriptively, then prescriptively you should not print shit coins or promote shitcoin because that's incentive incompatible, that will just create distortion, and that's the reason that shit coins are stupid. It's not like that it just happens that shit coins are bad. She coin must be bad for a matter of incentives, the way they are built.

But this is a market process, a market selection process. Trying to give him to give it a help, a push from a central party that will centrally push toward this final selection will not just not help in the long term, but will also produce opposite effects. For example, let me put it this way. I think that the US regulators bear much of the responsibility for the existence of the existing of sheet commerce themselves. in which ways one they print money so people cannot save money so everybody are is forced to invest instead of saving saving because that you cannot just save anymore so you have to over monetize everything from real estate to our work to everything so now you create the push to over monetize everything now people

can monetize maybe stock markets and and enterprises especially during a technological evolution like in the last decades but then you prevent them from doing so because the average Joe cannot invest in public companies because maybe they are not qualified investors. If you are from outside the US, underage, you cannot participate to any regulated market. If you are not rich, you cannot invest in market. So if you want to save and then invest, but you are not already rich and privileged, you just can't. So first the regulator will push you to overinvest, also cutting interest rates and forcing you to invest. Then it will cut you out of regulated investment, and then they will be surprised if some new thing like Bitcoin will create

a huge wave of basically of a clueless, illiterate retail investor just trying to get a piece of this evolution. Not just bad, that which is a very general discussion, but also in particular, Gary Gensler, maybe now anti-Shitcoin in some degree in Bitcoin positive, but then again, it was the best buddy of Sam Bankman Frye just a minute ago. So I will not give him like a super free pass about like a very, very careful selection. Let's say this is, I'm saying this, I'm pushing back for as a Davis advocate because my feeling are a little bit more complex. for at least three reasons. One, as Romans said and Yanis said as well, everything is good for Bitcoin,

even bad things, they will just make Bitcoin stronger and eventually. So even if Gensler now use the power of the state to shut down Centralized Shietcoin, then he will come after Bitcoin, and I think eventually he will, but then eventually he will lose anyway because of the things we have said. So everything bad is still good for Bitcoin. Second, this is a matter of, you know, freedom versus virtues. Like I don't think that we can discuss nutrition and we can say industrial sugar is bad.

Like CDo's, let's say CDo is like very maximalist. CDoS are bad. And we would say, no, we're fine. They are bad. No, they are good. They're bad. And I would say they are bad. And I want to say they are bad.

And if I say they are bad for a few years and then I'm proven right, they were actually bad. I feel psychologically and professionally gratified. But if government is starting to forbidding Cid oil, creating like an underground network of Cidoyle speakeas. I mean, this is the best way to turn me into a Cid oil crusade. So the point is that shit coin should die because people will learn for a mistake and suffer and a reason. They should die for a market process. Could be very slow, very confusing. We can help this process by educating, by explaining, by keeping moral standards.

But the violent arm of the government pushing for the selection, it may work in the short term, but it never, never works in the long term. In the long term, you always get like opposite results in a sense. You get basically distorted incentives that will make everything you want to make it right. You will make it bad. For example, like always, right, you make drugs illegal. Oh, now you will save people from drugs. No, you will just push drugs into illegality where they would be cut with bullshit and kill more people.

You want to make, but that's basically everything. You know, when you centrally plan, you fuck it up. So eventually it would be good for Bitcoin. And I know that we should defend the principle that shitcoins are bullshit. And we should stay clear from those. But I will never cheer for a state intervention in that. Yeah, I want to say two things on this. First, I would agree to you, we should never trust any politicians or government guys.

So we should be careful all the time. But I have a different opinion on Gary Gensler, also on this stuff with San Bernard Freed and so on. Because so for sure, the largest exchange in the U.S. has contact to the S. SEC for sure, right? And so you can't look that deep in a $9 billion exchange that created from nothing in just one year. You can't check all the processes which are going on there. It's just a big cloud. Like, I think they found out they had a USB stick with private keys worth of $200 million in a table, an office table. What the fact? So how do you can, how do you? you can realize this like the chief of the SEC it's not possible so I don't know what how deep he was really involved in this so yeah probably he met him and so on but I don't know I think all Gary Genser does if we have a really like like an um let me take the word

if we have an uh yeah objective point of view on on what he does and just see what he's doing. So if a Bitcoin maximalist would have his position, I think he would doing exactly this things, right? But in the end, you are totally right. We don't need regulations for a free market to, which bringing Bitcoin out like it's the hardest money. Everything else will crash and all the shitcoins with a single point of failure will fail.

So it's a market decision in the end, not a regulation decision. And yeah, and I'm totally with you on this point. I think the, again, when it comes to Gensler and everything, it's, I often find myself, again, agreeing with the words, but not the apparatus with which he's a part of. I think in general, I tend to err on the side of it would be better if everybody were left to their own devices to make their own mistakes. Obviously, fraud is fraud. And in any society that's going to have a consequence, if you steal from somebody, there's going to be a consequence. But in general, like, if it's just a shitty product, then I think,

it would be fantastic if there was just a period of everybody, you know, whether it be like in younger life or whatever, just making their mistakes and becoming very conscientious of what they do with the fruits of their labor, right? Where, you know, I, damn, I worked a whole week and then I bought hex. shit. Like that, like I think that needs to happen to everybody at least a good handful of times so that you can actually think before you spend your money.

Like I think people need to experience that. And when you have, I guess to Jacques most point, when you have somebody saying, no, you're not allowed to do this, in part, you're probably going to go do that. Or if it's,

if it's at least opaque for a little bit, and it seems like something that you weren't able to do prior, and now all of a sudden, oh, look, there's like all these slot machines that are just suddenly available to me. And like, great, I'm going to pull this lever because apparently it's the only way that I have a hope in hell of making it to retirement,

the people are going to pull that lever over and over and over again. And so, I mean, at the end of the day, I guess if we're zooming out, it just comes a bit down to when the money is broken, people are just going to make whatever desperate decision they need to make in order to have an ice cube's chance in hell of being able to protect any semblance of savings that they have. I think that's kind of where we're at, right?

Yes. As I said, on a professional level, I mean, I cannot deny there was some guilty pleasure. like telling to my clients for years don't mess with shit coins and they were answering but there are good opportunity yes but you are going Bitcoin already is like decentralized uncontrollable absolutely scarce asset that's pretty like break that's already disruptive enough so focus on doing that safely don't matter which coin because you will enter a unpredictable jungle of an infinite degrees of scam on top of scams so I

say that I've been mostly ignored by big clients like banks and now seeing them panicking because the US is gone for beating everything which is not Bitcoin gives me some degree of aesthetic satisfaction but I try to remain lucid and to contrast

this with some theoretical consistency. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, gentlemen, I'm going to, I want to keep it rolling here and I want to get to the other the other reasons for being bullish. But I'm all, again, I'll toss it out to the chat.

Let us know at the end of the day, institutional adoption. Good, bad, double-edged sword. How do you see it? Toss it into the chat. Also, before we move on to the next reason for being bullish, I need to address a very important issue that was brought up in the chat. by Yellow, of course. He says that Yoni, you look like the bad guy from Diehard,

where he comes in in order to avenge the death of his brother in the previous movie. Can you confirm or deny that you are the bad guy from one of the diehard movies? I am a good guy disguised as a bad guy. Okay, perfect. All right, great. I'm glad we got that cleared up. Yellow, you were just mistaken. Okay.

All right. We're going to do a rotation here. I'm going to actually toss it to Giacomo here. And again, cue you up with the same question. Why are you bullish? Go ahead. So I'm bullish because everything in the world is going to shit. So like everything is broken, right?

Everything is bad. And governments are basically censoring. So governments in the Democratic West are arresting people for social media posts. that's happened in UK, Australia, and they are arresting protesters in Canada. And when the governments will not do that directly, corporation will be pushed by government to censor the platform and confiscate money like PayPal recently and stuff like that. And even when the government is not pushing,

there is also just an ideological pressure to conformity. So some corporation would do that just because, without even having explicit government, government push. So it's great. So again, don't get me wrong. I'm not like fanboying for the government. The best possible word, let's say the easiest word, a little bit boring maybe, but easiest is a word where Bitcoin is not even needed because the government will not print money, we'll just use the gold standard, will not confiscate, will not require KOC, everybody will be free to transact. That's the best of possible words. But it's not really possible.

It's utopistic. The second best word is a world where the government will try to stop us and we strengthen Bitcoin, which is anti-fragile and thrives in attacks, and it will become stronger and stronger. The worst word is a word in which Bitcoin seems to be useless because it seems like the world is peaceful. And then after you let it go and you let it become complacent and weak, then they will attack and destroy.

The example I will give and then I stop is the, internet. The internet was conceived at a time where nuclear threat and threat was actually felt, but privacy was not really important. So there was not encryption built in. And it was commercialized in the 90s where there was no concern about centralization. Like it's all, it's so fine. Let's just centralize everything because the 90s were a very optimistic moment in which, I mean, the government will never spy on you. And only the cypherpunks were fighting back to a degree. So we have to avoid that. We have to avoid years in which the honeymoon between the Bitcoin and the mainstream will go on so much that we will forget non-custod, we will forget self-custody, non-KWIC purchase, we will forget everything because it looks like they are never going to attack us. And when they do attack us, we are just weak, we didn't learn the best practices, we didn't teach the best practices, we didn't develop tools. So like, for example, mining. Now mining pools are required. KYC, but that's inevitable.

The thing is that this pressure of censorship will push people to do Strathom B2 or a lightning payment or Covenants or ARC, everything which is happening which is good. It's a second degree effect of censorship attempt. So let's keep it coming.

Please government keep censoring and printing. We need you. I like this line of thinking. And it makes me think that a lot of the privacy guys that and a lot of the uncompromising zealots on Twitter are probably right. Like those guys that are like that are uncompromising, even if they're not 100% right,

they're directionally right. And because they're so far in one direction, you know, not everybody necessarily needs to be that person, but the importance is that they're pulling the average. They're pulling that Overton window towards privacy practices, self-custody, self-verification, you know, running your own know, all those important things about being, you know,

a first-class Bitcoin citizen, we'll say, they're pulling that average over. I think that's important. And so that's why I try, you know, I put up a video a few weeks ago where I'm not that guy to like try to orange pill my waitress or something like that. Like there's a time and place. I'm not that. I'm the person further down the funnel like people get interested in Bitcoin and then they figure out how to use it and I'm there. I'm not the person to like, you know, annoy random people I just make.

met three seconds ago. But I was with some people that were those people. And so they're like, they managed to get this waitress to say, okay, we're going to, we're all going to give you some sats and they'll post something online and maybe other people will give you sats and they'll send you some Bitcoin. And so like I think I had about 30 seconds to get this person to be like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. Otherwise it wasn't going to happen.

And so like, the, the, the, good choice for lightning would have been like, let's get you Phoenix wallet. Here's a 12 word phrase you're going to write down. You're going to back that up later. And blah, blah. And it was more time than I had. And what I mean is there was more time than the person was going to give me.

And so it was like, okay, all right. Well, I guess wallet of Satoshi it is, which, you know, obviously like in my head, I'm like, okay. All right, I guess. but I caught shit for that and you know I don't take it to heart it's fine I get it I also wasn't that worried because I was like

you know this person will have a touch point they'll probably get up she ended up getting like a few hundred bucks from random people on the internet and now she's you know curious about Bitcoin she may not have the Bitcoin anymore she may have like used it to pay you know her credit card or whatever the hell of what we have lots of stuff to do that in Canada

Um, that's besides the point. This person, I was at touchpoint with Bitcoin. They had a few hundred bucks. They'd probably look back in a few years and be like, oh, my God, I paid a credit card bill. I could have had like $20,000. Um, so like, that's kind of the point. But nonetheless, I caught a ton of shit for like not doing the most robust, like, self-custody option.

Um, I don't fault those people for screaming at me. me for not doing that because I recognize in the grand scheme of things, it shifts that Overton window towards let's have those best practices. And I think it's important to move towards that in that way. I think that's a good goal. And I think we will get there. In terms of like stepping further back to your, the world is going to shit initial thought. Yeah, that's what's needed to get people to recognize why Bitcoin is needed. And I said the word touchpoint for a whole lot of people in Canada that got their first touch point of, oh, Bitcoin's useful in a place where I never thought my bank account would be shut down. Suddenly, it happened.

And so while I don't think that all of those people are instantly Bitcoiners, they just saw a very real world. example of why it's useful. And that was that was a pretty impactful first touch point. And a lot of people don't even fully know that that actually most of that money is like it got directly to those people. Some of those people may have lost it. That's that's a touch point in and of itself. They, you know, they have custody of it or they had custody of it. They may not ever claim it. But you, you know, sure as hell at some point they're going to look back and be like, somebody gave me like a bunch of Bitcoin and now that would be worth $100,000 because it was, I don't know if you guys knew, but like each individual trucker that got one of those packages, it was $8,000 at the time.

10 years down the line, anybody who didn't claim that or just like just didn't pay attention, they're going to be like, holy shit. And even the people that did use it and just like bought gift cards or something, that's going to that's going to be a huge, huge kind of thing in the back of their minds for time to come. And all the outsiders looking in saying, oh, that's the only thing that worked. It's the only thing out of all digital donations that actually got there. Yeah. But yeah, Giacomo, to your point, I heard something very reminiscent said by a Bitcoin

mechanic, who's an awesome guy on stage. he was at thank god for bitcoin in in miami and uh and and and he said on stage to the government please please ban bitcoin i beg you ban bitcoin uh because that's that's when people really figure out how to use it and that's one of the tools are really built to make sure that the big the government can't ban it so yeah i'm curious uh roman uh you know What do you think? Yeah, I'm totally with you and Jacomo. I think things getting worse and proving how important Bitcoin is.

I also think that that's the best way to entrepreneur people, to not talk about Bitcoin, just explain how bad Fiat is. And yeah, all the time when Bitcoin is like, so we have two economic views of life. Like one coming from the state, it's a Keynesian economic view. Like we're planning from above. We know what you want to buy in the future. So we produce this for you because we give the companies credit and all this,

what they need for this. And what Bitcoin does all the days, every day, when Bitcoin is coming in an individual list of, I want that, is to prove that. that the Austrian economics are right. So you can't plan the need of people. It's a list in your head. Like you're standing up in the morning and you don't think, oh, I want to drive my car now.

You think first, oh, I want to drink water. I have to go to toilet. I don't know. So it's your priority list. And you see at some point Bitcoin is coming up in your priority list. And not only on your priority list, also on companies' priority lists and states and countries. and all this.

So every time when Bitcoin is coming to these people, to these individuals, it's a proof that the Austrian economics are right. And I think if the things from the Fiat world, from this plant centralized world, are getting worse and worse, people create a list and Bitcoin is coming up there and you have the proof, yeah, you need Bitcoin. So I think it's good that it's a slow process. If our structures, like our centralized structures, which we have today, are falling too fast. I think it's dangerous because probably centralized parties will take over all people which

I don't know Bitcoin because they think, oh, there's a guy which tells me, I bring your new jobs and everything. And, okay, I kill a few million people for this. But hey, you have jobs. So what the fact? So the people probably will say, yeah, I like your ideas. So we saw this in different parts in our history. So I think Bitcoin has to come very slowly to our society.

And we need to bring things from the centralized view, from the centralized plant economic view to the free market. And yeah, I think Bitcoin is in a perfect way. And I'm totally agree with Giacomo and all this points. Awesome. Awesome. Yoni, go ahead. Yeah, sure. I think it's important to realize that a lot of people want Bitcoin to happen as fast as possible, but I don't think that that's a good idea for several reasons.

And one of the reasons that I usually mention is I make a comparison to psychedelics in the 50s and 60s and 70s. Like, if you look back at what happened to psychedelics in the 50s and 60s, we were researching psychedelics. And I might just preface this by saying that I am also a psychonaut. That is a very big part of my life. And when we were researching psychedelics as a tool to study the mind and to treat the mental illnesses and so on, and these very potent substances eventually leaked into society, it created an entire new movement. People consumed these substances and saw things about society and reality

that they had not seen before. And it caused them to start to organize differently. And this new way of organizing society was a direct threat against, existing power structures and centralized institutions. But the clampdown on this movement happened because this movement was growing so rapidly. So it did not build up enough momentum to withstand the clampdown from the state, basically. And I am a little bit scared that Bitcoin is happening too quickly. Because if it does happen too quickly, and we see, for example, say several nation states going against Bitcoin because they realize how powerful it is and how it can change society fundamentally not to their benefit.

if they were to regard Bitcoin as a threat on the similar level as, say, Russia perceives Ukraine, and they were to invest as much money in hunting down Bitcoin and miners as Russia is doing to Ukraine, we have no idea what that would mean to Bitcoin. And I want to make sure, like, even if Bitcoin could probably withstand such an attack, I am a bit complacent because I want to see Bitcoin. I don't want to have those existential threats against Bitcoin before it grows and becomes immortal. Yes, that's a good point. I mean, I, of course, agree with my point because I made it, but it's a little bit in,

it's partially ingest. Like, Yanni is right. there are two ways a complex organism can die either because it is attacked too soon which is again like Janis example of Satoshi not wanting Wikileaks to use Bitcoin too soon so if you attack if you if you if you try

if you have to to grow up a baby and you will never expose him or her to any kind of adversity he or she will grow up weak and complacent and then when adversity will eventually come, she will be just broken. So you should expose to adversity like immune system. You should expose the body to pathogens so you can develop an immune system.

You should expose to sun radiation, so you can produce melanin. But on the other side of a specter, if you expose the baby too soon too much, it will just die. So it's a complex equilibrium, probably at the beginning, Bitcoin was going to be, it was risking to be attacked too soon. I, with legalized mining into corporations like Marathon or Foundry and the Antpool, I'm with KYC exchanges and ETFs, I'm starting to think that we may be in the other direction in which people do not like, again, people are using custodian wallets,

because they're practical, because it's still very hard to do lighting without custody, because you need the first transaction to receive. So it's still complex. But people are doing that because right now there is no reason not to, because your money will not be confiscated right now. So I agree with you only that we have to stay between the excessive attack and the excessive complacency. But maybe right now we are in a phase of too long honeymoon.

Of course, the problem is that attacks are good. for Bitcoin, but they are bad for individual bitcoins. So, of course, we have a conflict of interest here. We want Bitcoin to be attacked rhetorically, and I agree with Bitcoin mechanics, but then again, I don't want the state to attack me right now as a Bitcoin. I don't have to hide, to shut down my business. So there is a conflict of interest, which, I mean, it's good because it is not in our power. We don't have to this, we don't get to decide how much of the attack we will get.

So my attitude would be everything is good for Bitcoin. You give me some more honeymoon. I would use it to build my business to educate people to spread the war. You give me more attack. That's good for Bitcoin. So either way we win. So that's good. Yeah, it's interesting in instances where the attack comes suddenly.

Like it's it's you quickly realize like, holy shit, I've got a bunch of stuff I really should have done, I should have been much more organized than I currently am. And I think a lot of people realize that. And that's why I don't, that's why I kind of think you're right in terms of like, you know, people need to, the attacks are good, but in small doses. And hopefully that's kind of what we get because most bitcoins aren't ready for that level of attack, that level

of scrutiny, that that that boot coming down upon them. And unfortunately, that's not how the world works. I think we're going to get the boot

or some countries are going to get that boot coming down on them and people are going to be scrambling. And hopefully we use that opportunity to learn from it and build. So we shall see. But nonetheless, anybody watching that is, you know, that isn't self-custodying. That isn't, I mean, hopefully everybody watching as self-custody, like, other than like small

amounts on some tiny little lightning wallet or something. But like, you know, if you're not in self-custody, if you're not doing things like that, then you've got to at least get to that level where your funds are your own. It's much harder to kick in everybody's door and confiscate their Bitcoin one at a time than it is to call up an exchange and say, all right, this is ours now. So at least get to that level and then we'll worry about leveling up from there. Nonetheless, we are going to do a further rotation for our last topic. of the show. I will say to everybody in the chat again, thanks for being here. If you can,

do me solid. Take half a second and click that like button on YouTube. It really helps please the YouTube algorithmic gods and pump this in front of more eyeballs. If the people at YouTube see fit, we'll see. But to all my nostridges out there, because this also streams live to Noster. Give this a share as well because I have a feeling that in the future, that may be the only avenue that we can chat about Bitcoin on. We'll see, though. Nonetheless, and shout out to people watching live from Twitter, from Rumble, all that

stuff. I see you guys too. So thank you guys. And shout out to this. This is my buddy, Dave, by the way, that just said, smash like just now. Thanks, Dave. I'll see you soon. I'll be home in 10 days.

So we'll catch up. Anyways, nonetheless, we're going to do rotation. Yoni, it is all yours. I'll cue you up. Why are you bullish, my friend? Let me know. I am bullish about Bitcoin because Bitcoin saves the world. And this is basically the topic of my book abundance through scarcity.

So I'm going to talk about an idea, maybe two ideas. Let's see where this brings us. But actually, I can show the book here. I got it right here on my windowsill. Here it is, abundance through scarcity. I'm going to give you the full screen. Keep holding it up. Hold on.

Let's see it. Oh, damn chat. There we go. Yeah. It's quite beautiful. I'm really proud of the cover. It is. And so this book is about the importance of Bitcoin for the future of human civilization.

and exploring this particular branch of the Bitcoin rabbit hole has fundamentally changed my relationship with Bitcoin and the future and made me a lot more optimistic than I've ever been in my entire life. And I want to give that to as many people as possible. So first on background. So our society is currently going through the worst decline that it has experienced in the past 2,000 years

based on a number of different measurements. Poverty, inflation, social unrest, bureaucracy and surveillance are on the rise. Institutions are failing. Our psychology is declining and we have a global mental health crisis. Our hopes and dreams are getting smaller and smaller. Our money is getting weaker and we are experiencing one of the worst depopulation events in history apart from like big catastrophes in history like the Tobok catastrophe is 74,000 years ago or whatever. So now most major economies in the world are below replacement rate and that is a very significant and, and, um, alarming signal.

So we may see our society collapse in just a few centuries. And I outline why this is in my book. Now, when we talk about collapse, a real collapse does not, as it is portrayed in the Hollywood films, it's very different from that, how it plays out in real life. Like, they're not as dramatic, but they are more dangerous. or they're more severe. So if we were to continue to decline, which we have been for the past 50 years, basically,

and if we were to continue to decline to a point where our society collapsed, we could forever become trapped as farmers, in a life that our ancestors fought very hard to escape. So the definition of collapse is a rapid, of a complex society and rapid meaning hundreds of years and in the process of collapse a lot of a lot of culture literature knowledge technology and wealth is is lost and populations also declined severely and this has happened to many civilizations in the past and we are we are not immune to this So, and we could, I mean, the way that I see it, like we have been declining now for the past 50 years.

We're, as I mentioned before, and I think that the next stages could entail maybe the loss of nuclear power, loss of many universities and research institutions, maybe parts of modern medicine. And we're also going to see increased poverty, lower standards of living, maybe ecological collapse and several unsustainable breaks in our food and production systems. And we will also see further depopulation. But this happens so slowly that any one generation will hardly notice. Like if you look back 50 years or 70 years, like our grandparents' generation basically, they had a lot, each individual, each family had a lot bigger claim

on the entire economy than we do now. So in a sense, we are poorer that they were. We have had 50 or 70 years of technological and economical growth since then. But despite that, we are still poorer than they are. Like now at the age to live in a, well, back then, you could have a house, a summer house, three kids, a car or maybe even two cars, a boat, and go on an vacation. once a year and save some money on one income at the age of 35. Now you need two incomes to rent an apartment in a city, have a dog and some houseplants.

And that is despite 50 or 70 years of economic progress. And I argue in the book that the reason for our current decline is the Fiat system. And now Bitcoin not only reverses this ongoing decline, but it also brings about an abundant future. So therefore, abundance through scarcity. And the thing is, one of my central thesis is that society ebbs and flows through decline and prosperity. And that is natural. The important thing is this. So future declines, even in a hyper-bitonized economy, will still be possible.

but they will not lead to an entire collapse because we will always have Bitcoin as a protection and in abundance through scarcity you will learn exactly how Bitcoin protects against collapse and how it not just protects against collapse but also brings about an abundant future which entails human beings becoming an ageless species and how we are climbing the Kardashev's

scale in how we are going to become a multi-planetary civilization. Yeah. I'm totally with you. Thank you for this word. Really amazing. Absolutely amazing. What do you think, how good are our chances with Bitcoin to not get this very hard situation? Like if we lose, you talked about losing the information about.

technology and all the things. So if we lose this, how can we get energy resources when all the coal is built away and we can't dig that deep with our technology and all the stuff? So probably we never reach our technical standard again. Because I'm asking this. This is one of the central points in the book also. Like what you were talking about is what I refer to as the singularity crisis, which basically means that if we were to collapse now, if our continue, if this decline that we are going through right now, which a lot of people are not even aware of because it's happening so slowly. But in say two, three, four hundred, five hundred years, we could collapse to that point where we can never rise again. We can never. This might be

our final collapse. This might be the singularity crisis where we rise. to become farmers permanently and become trapped in that time, because now we will have exhausted a lot of the easily accessible resources. And when we have depleted a lot of the easily accessible resources, we will need a lot more industrialized technology and digital technology in order to be able to progress at all. And we won't have that if we collapse now. So this is our shot.

We need to reverse this decline. We cannot collapse a second time or like another time. We cannot afford it. Yeah. That is, it is really crucial that we do not collapse. And I believe that Bitcoin has really come in the 11th hour for that. Because if we look at, for example, the Roman Empire, it took them 500 years to collapse, 500 years. And no single generation in the Roman Empire essentially,

realized that they were declining. And when they collapsed, they didn't even know that they had collapsed. They just disintegrated. They had become a much simpler society over time with a lot fewer people. So Bitcoin plays a key role in our evolution as a species and civilization, because one, it protects us against further decline. And two, it changes our psychology, our collective. psychology to become future oriented.

And third, it enables us to build the kind of future that we actually want. Without Bitcoin, I don't think that we can become an ageless species or become multi-planetary or climb the Carter shell scale. So in abundance through scarcity, again here, in abundance through scarcity, my goal is to paint a high-resolution portrait of this future. from first principles reasoning. So it reads like a sci-fi novel, and it has some stunning artwork. It's not just a cover that is great.

It really has a stunning artwork. So it reads like a sci-fi novel, but it really is grounded in very real philosophy, economics, history, mathematics, and cosmology. So it really is a collection of big Bitcoin ideas. And as I said, it begins in the Roman Empire, because the underlying theme is the rise and fall, of civilizations in the past and in the future and also in outer space. So I also explore the Fermi paradox with relation to money and collapse. I love that.

I think, well, one, it reminds me of, it's like Bitcoiners as a whole are Harry Seldon are like the, the, what's the, psycho history of Asimov. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's it's it's kind of like basically using mathematics to to predict predict the downfall of of a particular society, except for like with with, you know, fiat mathematics. It's just super easy. It's just like nobody's bothered to do the math. But secondly, like again, like the Fermi paradox, the the the great filter theory of like, why haven't we seen other societies yet and is is the ability to have like actual like digital scarcity and the ability to actually reign in, you know, fiat. Is that one of those factors that prevents societies from being

able to ascend to the ability to traverse the galaxy? Like they implode before they get to the point of like being able to visit others. So if we start from first principles, every civilization will want to expand. And if they want to expand, they will construe some sort of economy. And that economy will naturally ebb and flow through prosperity and decline. And that decline will eventually cause a collapse unless they have a protection against collapse. And if they collapse enough times, they will have exhausted their resources. So eventually they will not be able to rise again.

And this is the singularity crisis, which could explain why we haven't seen anybody. I have another thesis. I have another thesis. Probably there are aliens that want to destroy civilizations by implementing central bank currencies. Yes. That would make such...

Maybe that's the three-quel to Avatar. They just use Fiat. Yes. And Dvandora just collapses in on itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a powerful weapon. We don't need to conjure, like, like being able to produce black holes

to engage in interstellar warfare. It's enough for just imposing fiat systems on civilizations. They destroy the whole ecosystem, everything that live in. Everything is destroyed at the end. Can you imagine that? There's like the three quill is like, have you guys heard about the US dollar? Forget your blogpole producers right there.

I began making videos also based on the chat. in abundance through scarcity and one of those videos is about the Bitcoin as Kardashev type 1 money and and this is huge so I finished this video yesterday it's an 11 minute long video which will I will publish on my YouTube channel soon enough but I figured we could show just a teaser here like a premiere the intro to the video it's a one minute intro and I mean your audience is probably familiar with the Cardashev scale or what would you say Ben. I mean, give like a cliff snow.

Yeah, sorry. Just a second about this. I really have to tell somebody this. It was in May, and we were at the dinner with Bitcoiners, and some guy was keeping talking about a Kardashian scale, and everybody was just like this is very stupid, but okay, go on. But the Kardashian, I think the Kardashian scale or Kardashian, what's the English word? The German word is Kardashian Shkla?

What's the English word? The reference there was to King Kardashian. So it was like It was like to repeat the world It's not reference The Kedasham scale. Kadeshov scale? Kedashov, is it right?

Kadashv. Yeah, we'll say Kadašov. I think Kardashian scale is like the polar opposite. So the Khartershev scale. No, no, no, I adjust the word. I know the Kedashv scale because I've made a video one and a half years ago to reference to Bitcoin, but so I don't know the correct English word.

It's a Russian name, right? It's a Russian name of Nikolai Kardashv. So in 1964, Kardashev, so in 1964, Kardashev, so in 1964, he construed this three-tiered system as a measurement of the technological, of the technological, sophistication of a civilization based on how much energy they control. So he produced a three-tiered system, Cardishav type 1, type 2 and type 3. And Cardishab type 1 civilizations, they are planetary in simple terms, meaning they control every watt of energy that reaches their planet or is produced on their planet,

meaning that they have full control of their planet. They control the weather, volcanic activity, even text. tonic plate movement and the orbit around their star. They have also begun to extensively colonize other planets in their solar system. So they're fully planetary. Carters of type 2, they are stellar. So they have full control of all the energy produced in their solar system. So they have a Dyson sphere around their sun, basically, a megastructure encapsulating their star, their host star, harvesting all, harnessing all the energy produced by their star

and they have colonized every stellar body even the like we would even the asteroid belts like the Kuiper belt for us that would be and the Orch Cloud and they are engaged in asteroid mining and they have colonies on every planet and they control the orbit of every planet in the solar system. Type three, they are, they are

truly gods. They control all the energy produced in an entire galaxy. And we, it's difficult to speculate what kind of technologies they would have. They would basically play with black holes and quasars. And what's interesting on the Kadesh-Kadashv scale is, if you erase it, you have a better ecosystem and everything because we can reach one when we're burning all our energy on the world and then we are zero so if we want to hold one

we have to have a technology which is possible to hold one and if we find an alien civilization on Kardashian scale one we know we can learn something from them and then we probably are we should take all our energy to reach them because otherwise we probably see aliens which are throwing shit at each other.

It might be funny, but we don't learn anything from them. So there's actually a mathematical formula to calculate where we are on the Cardiff scale. And we are currently around 0.6. So 0.4 points away from becoming a full Cartier 1. And that might seem like not a lot, but the scale is logarithmic, meaning that we would have to increase our control of power at 10,000 fold. where we are now. And that is quite a lot.

And Bitcoin is not only a tool for this, Bitcoin is more. How could you measure how much energy a whole civilization is using? You don't have, you have to trust how much energy Google is using. But Bitcoin is like the lock file for the Kardashian-of scale because you have difficulty and the difficulty adjustment is made by the use of, powerful Bitcoin and if we have hyper-bitonization and Bitcoin is our money, you can see, you can measure all economic trades and you can refer this to the difficulty. So you know how much energy the whole world is using. So Bitcoin is our lock five or our civilization index.

It's mind-blowing. That is a very insightful. There's a very great insight. I love that, Roma. Thank you for sharing that. And so I have. have begun to make, okay, so the point here is that Bitcoin is Cartiercef type money, meaning that it's truly planetary money. And we don't have many technologies that are truly planetary, but we are approaching a Cardiff type 1 level as a civilization by slowly introducing these types of technologies. And Bitcoin, like the internet, are those kinds of technologies. We have internet for that, for information. Right now, I will admit it's clunky, but internet in 200 years, it's going to be quite impressive, I think.

And the same with Bitcoin. It's very impressive to, because now we have a network for exchanging value on a global scale. And we've never had that before in the history of our species. So like I said, I've begun making videos based on the chapters in this book. And Ben, maybe we can show just the intro to the Cardiff-Bitone is Cardishet type 1 money. Let's do it. All right. Here we go.

Imagine the far future of human civilization. As our descendants have evolved into godlike beings, wielding the power of not just an entire star, but an entire galaxy. In 1964, a grand measure of civilizations was proposed by Russian astrophysicist Nikolai Kardashev. The Kardashev scale. A three-tiered system, it classifies civilizations based on their technological sophistication and energy consumption. What kind of civilizations did Kardshev imagine?

Where do we currently reside on this scale? And more intriguingly, where are we headed? That looks good. I'm excited about that. Awesome. So that's the intro. Very well done. Very well done. Beautiful.

Oh, so do we have a timeline on that? Because I'm going to need to be watching that the second it drops. Yeah, I'm thinking about... I thought a timeline on the type one civilization. I say, well, be patient. Yeah. Is that like next week? For the video, I'm not really sure yet.

I haven't decided. I finished the video yesterday. And I don't know. Sometime next week, Friday maybe. When the weather is bad, so more people will watch this. I don't know, Ben, your YouTube channel is, you've been working quite a long time and successfully on doing Bitcoin. I don't know when the right time is to publish.

I'm still learning these things. Weekdays, the exact opposite of when I do it, apparently. Between like 8 and 10 p.m. Eastern time. okay awesome yeah i'll keep that amount but i'll let you i keep you keep you guys posted and i'll do some um um i'll basically just let let you know when i when i have a date in mind yeah and also i'll i'll mention it too whenever when i get to uh like every week on like the thursday new show i try to highlight any like cool things that have come out so uh when it drops So I'm very excited about also about my book, Abundance through Scarcity, because

writing it, like it really made me fall in love with Bitcoin like never before. And if reading it, if you can enjoy reading it half as much as I did writing it, that that's fantastic. And I can almost guarantee that people are going to fall in love with Bitcoin in a way that they haven't before if they pick up a copy. So and Giacomo, you said you were doing a course in El Salvador. Are you going to adopting Bitcoin? Yeah.

You are? I've seen there for two months from the end of October until Christmas, basically. Cool. I will see you then. I'm speaking at the conference. Looking forward. Looking forward. I will make sure to buy a copy before so I can have it sent.

Awesome. I'm, I wasn't planning on going. I may have just figured out a way to make it. So I may see you guys there. We'll see. Yanni, withhold the signed copy until Ben confirms that it will be in. Promise. Declay, don't allow, don't sign a single thing until I get there.

Who's going to Riga? I'm going there as well. Yeah. Yeah. Going where? Sorry. Riga, Baltic on a badger. That is one that I really wanted to get to.

The only reason I'm not going is my daughter starts her first day of grade one and I want to be there. That's more important. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen out to Amsterdam yet. I'm trying to go to Amsterdam and Madera. But I don't like I want to have a speaking slot. So I'm trying to arrange that.

You can have mine. Yeah. Yeah, they asked me, but I don't think I don't go to Amsterdam this year. I have too much to do this year and too stressful. I mean, I'm in this weird place right now where I have one foot in the Fiat life and one foot in Bitcoin. It's quite difficult to juggle. Yeah, that's not good. But Fiat mining is a necessary part in some ways.

financially, if I didn't quit my Fiat job in 2013, that would probably be very good right now. Like, I had to spend a lot of sets before I had my boating accident. But from the life experience point of view, the amount of people I met in the last 10 years and the amount of knowledge I could extort from wise people, it has been fun. So, yeah, I think that leaving Fiat job is a very financially reckless, but personally enriching experience. Yeah. I agree.

I agree. Yeah, 100%. I mean, but leaving a Fiat job assumes that you may or regretting leaving a Fiat job assumes that you would maintain the level of understanding of Bitcoin that you have right now with enough conviction to continue to stack with your Fiat income. And I'm not convinced that many of us would have the level of knowledge that we have, like, if we hadn't fully committed. If you don't go fully in with your life as well, it's harder to study. That's it.

I mean, I also think that what kind of your job you are doing also matters because, like, something like medical doctors, the amount of vocacy and the amount of maybe, like, personal investment you may have in something like that is different. And I was like technology consultant. I mean, fuck it. Let's do Bitcoin. I really like what I do. So it's difficult for that reason as well. Yeah. And one way to go for Bitcoin is to do what you can do better

and start to try to serve more the Bitcoin community get paid in sense for what you do. So like the Bitcoin doctor may be a thing eventually if you manage to find a way to scale it. We need to trust the doctors, especially in this time. You need to link. up with like crowd health or something yeah um i think i think the the lesson here is uh once you go stack you never go back is probably the way to say um all right gentlemen um i'm going to start i know

roman you're on a uh a time crunch here uh and i we're kind of reached our time i'm going to start rounding out here really quick. I also want to give a shout out to Yellow because the having party is coming. We were talking about travel. So those of you that get down to El Salvador in April, that's happening as well. And I will be there. So I'm looking forward to it. But nonetheless, I like to round out the show a certain way.

Roman, I know you're quick. I'll go to you first. But basically at the end of every show, I quickly go through. Any final thoughts you may have. Also, I try to get, if you happen to have a recommendation, I love to get that too. So recommendation, what I mean is literally anything, whether it be like a piece of advice that you've learned just through being in Bitcoin for an extended period of time, something you wish others knew that you maybe didn't when you were starting.

or it could be a piece of content. It could be a device or an app or something that you think is interesting, a piece of news, something that you think people should check out that is worth their time. So I'll start with my final thoughts and recommendation, and then I'll toss it to Roman next. Final thoughts, honestly, Yoni, I'm so glad that we wrapped with your topic because I love diving into that kind of like almost cosmic realm of thinking of like where is humanity headed, that greater picture. And it's particularly relevant to me right now where you're talking about like this collapse feeling. And I get it more to be honest when I visit Europe.

and the reason I say that is because I see the difference in architecture. I see things that were built by people who were building them, not for themselves, not for their children, but for generations that they would never meet. And then I go home and I see things that were built on debt that will be repaid by generations they will never meet. And you can't get a further contrast than that. And we need to get back to the former in order to achieve what you're alluding to.

I'm sorry to get goosebumps when you're talking about this. It's my wife, like she's, you know, hats off to Mrs. Sessions because she's falling down the rabbit hole hard. And when we get into conversations like this and we get, we get traveling and we go to these places and we're like, there's these buildings that are standing that are. thousands of years old and and they were built to withstand um the collapse of empires and yeah like yes there's there's lots of ruins but there's also lots of things that are still standing and then you get home and they repaved the road two years ago and there's pop holes we're no longer we're no

longer building for things to last 10,000 years we're building for things to last decades to to possibly centuries yeah that is our grader shift in in the time preferences in mentality. So that is a decline of our psychology. Was mentioned the same term, time preferences, a term that I never, I did like to study Austrian economics before Bitcoin. But it was really with Bitcoin that understood

this part of Western tradition, which is time preference. Kudos to Saferi Annamos especially. It was the first one to really focus on that. And then many other people, including yourself, Yoni Knot, many other Bitcoin writers, emphasized the point of time preference. It's really one of the most fundamental concepts ever and the most consequential concepts ever.

The problem is that right now you may have some kind of, you may hear some kind of smirk reaction. You know, when there is something that is unknown and that's proposed, there would be a lot of initial excitation. So everybody was talking about time preference a few years ago. Then people will try to overreact on the other extreme, becoming skeptical of any kind of

economic talk because Bitcoin is you want to get back to be more practical. Don't talk about philosophy. But if you really think about that, it's one of the most profound and consequential concepts in not just in money,

but in everything. Everything. The problem is this. The problem is this. If you have a high time preference, you can't appreciate why low time preference is important. Right. Right. Meta high type reference. Roman, I'm going to, without taking up too much time, I'm going to toss it to you. I'll finish off with my recommendation.

We were talking a little bit earlier about how like, you know, when shit hits a fan, when you're in a pinch, you're going to wish you were better prepared than you were. Take self-custody. That's step one. I know. Anybody watching this is going to already have Bitcoin. but if it's not your Bitcoin, it's not your Bitcoin. Figure us up custody, set up a wallet, get some hardware.

That's it. That's my recommendation. Roman, I'm going to toss it to you. Any final thoughts, recommendations? Take it away, man. Yeah. If you watch this video and even don't want to buy Bitcoin after all, learn it. Because you see how deep this topics can go, like about physics. about mathematics, about Kadeshev scale and all the things.

And you see how synced our knowledge is. It's the first time I talk that deep with Jakumo, Yuban or you, Ioni. And we have quite the same deep knowledge of all these parts that have nothing to do with Bitcoin directly, but indirectly, because Bitcoin is touching all this points of our life and you're learning so much about, how our world is working. And it's a fascinating journey. So even if you don't want to buy Bitcoin, try to learn why you don't want to buy Bitcoin.

Because I swear to you, it's a fantastic feeling to see all the stuff and growing this need of knowledge in your brain. It's amazing. Love to hear it, man. Awesome. Thank you. Jocamo, I'm going to toss to you. Final thoughts, recommendations.

Go ahead. Redundant, but yeah, self-custod is the first step. Eventually, I think that people will have to pay attention to non-KOC way to buy Bitcoin and the way to increase privacy by mixing and to use lightning because eventually high fee will arrive. But the very first step is don't allow people to scare you into thinking that backing up 12 words is too much for you. You can write and read alphabetical writing, which took like millenniums for becoming a widespread practice. People could not do that usually up to a century back from now.

So you can do very complex things. So you can back up 12 words in a way that you don't lose them and other people cannot easily access them. You can. And if you can do that, you can create the first. barrier against attacker including legal attackers like nation states and illegal attackers like common buglers and you can do that then when you do that don't stop there because there is still like avoid KYC KWC just a list of target with documents and an up-to-date home address and the amount of things you

can steal so KYC is a target list then there is like on-chain linking which is also a second-degree target list because everybody can easily mess up in your purchases and saving habits and the kind of wallet you're using, which will weaken your defense. But this is a progression. First thing, just get off any kind of fucking thrust at the third party. I like that. Also, conveniently, if you figure out non-KYC, it makes the on-chain stuff. that much easier.

Yeah. I usually tell that there are like three degrees of privacy in Bitcoin. I reuse this. I recycle this notion of because I like it. So the first level is private key. Private key must be private. If somebody else know your private key that moves your Bitcoin, they are not your bitcoins.

So privacy or private key is the most important thing. The second layer is connection between your Fiat identity and your public keys. So if there is an easy connection between. identity and public keys that will allow people to come to your house and then break the first degree of privacy so force you to give up the private key and then the third layer is connection among public keys so if you leak your identity on one this leakage will infect and peripherate to all the others so this is a progression but start with the basic one uh 12 words it's very simple don't don't mess it up give give it some attention and some study uh give

some thing about inheritance and how you leave it and it's doable really is doable awesome before he leaves everybody give a hats off to Roman he's got to run but Roman thank you so much for being here thank you so much for inviting me and it was a pleasure to meet you guys really nice bye-bye together let's see you guys awesome I'm gonna toss it to you final you get the last word any final thoughts any recommendations take it away man I have a recommendation. Art is incredibly important. It is a mirror of our society, of our mentality, of everything. And there is a piece of art that I discovered today. It's a piece of music,

actually. It's made by Oliver Anthony. And the song is Richmond, North of Richmond. This is the guy. It's the best Bitcoin song that I have heard in a long time. It's incredible. his voice gives me chills and the message is just on point. I don't think it's intended as a Bitcoin song, but it definitely is. I hope it's intended as a Bitcoin song. It might just be. Either case, it is upon all of us to get this guy into our community. He has a strong voice, literally, and we really need this guy.

I just posted it in the chat. heard a snippet of it earlier today. Sounds fantastic. And the topic is interesting too. But yeah, check it out. I'm going to have to listen to it immediately after this because I was meaning to all today and I just couldn't get to it. So I'm glad you brought it up.

Interesting. I also saw somebody else on Twitter be like, all right, so Bitcoiners are all bluegrass specialists now. Apparently. Which is great. No, that's awesome. That's fantastic. I love that.

Gentlemen, I'm going to round it out here. This was fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed this. Obviously, hats off to Roman. Thank you for joining us. And anybody that watches Roman that showed up that may not have been familiar with the channel. Welcome.

Giacomo, it's been a long time coming. I can't believe I haven't had you on the show yet. We had tried previously, but time zones suck. And you really had to do it with Yoni, and now Yel were coming just to listen to me, and now we'll go out as a Yoni fan. So you basically burn my opportunity to shine. No, it's great. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was so glad I could have you. Is Mir in the room? Can I say hi? Yeah. Hi. There she is. How's it going? Very, very fine.

Somebody has to work while Jacomo is talking. He's a slacker. I know that. It's fine. Division of labor is the cornerstone of civilization. I thought she works. And the family's good? Yeah, yeah.

They are good, always. Awesome. All right. Glad to hear. Good to see you. See around. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome.

Awesome. I'm going to toss it to you. Final thoughts, recommendations, all yours. Yeah. I already did that. Oh, sorry, I'm getting confused because I'm talking to Jaccoa. I'm sorry. Even you want to give double the spice to Yon. I know, you know. Everybody's just turning. I think the recommendation, all of that. Anyways, well, that's awesome, guys. Again, I really appreciate your time. This was a hell of a rip. pleasantly surprised

anytime I run over the hour and a half I know it was a good rip so thank you guys I really appreciated that and I'm glad I'm glad that I got to meet you in Prague I hopefully will see you again soon and I definitely will cross paths with you

Giacomo I will see you as well soon Maybe in a Salvador or later on Yeah yeah I'm gonna try and make it down I think there's something that came up that I may be able to get there in November. Or you can just go to Greece and just stay there. Are we going to, you know, Yellow, Yellow really loved the episode because in the chat, I said that I liked Greece more than Italy.

You know what my problem is? Sorry, I'm going to keep this going for a second. Jean-Camo, maybe you can enlighten me on this. My problem was this time around, I did all of Southern Italy. Previously, I did all of northern Italy. And then I heard somebody here say just recently, it's like two different countries in a single country. Is that true? It's even more than that.

Italy is a very fiat concept. Italy never really existed. It was like a patchwork of very different places from a southern kingdom to the Vatican, the Vatican state, to the northern communes and some part of Austro-Ingaric Empire. So it's totally made-up concept. You cannot visit Italy. You can visit hundreds of different places that have been conquered by one single army in the late 19th century. But even the Italian language is totally artificial. It didn't exist up to very recently.

It was just the dialect of Florence. And then it was made artificially as the Italian language because they needed unification. My grandparent from Milan could not even understand a guy from Sicily. It just were completely different languages. and were just future generations ago. So whoever told you this is correct. There is no Italy. You really have to be more specific, and it's very complex.

Also, yellow comments on how southern Italy is very Greek influence. And funny enough, actually, once I got to Syracusa, I actually quite enjoyed that, and there was a lot of Greek influence there. everywhere and there is still right now Greek kind of efficiency in the like infrastructure and bureaucracy. I did

I also notice that. Yeah, no, I quite enjoyed the trip. Nonetheless, I really enjoyed Italy. This is actually my last night here. I fly to Malta tomorrow and then Malta for a few days and then to London to visit a friend

and then home. But nonetheless, I thoroughly enjoyed both. I think Giacomo, just for you, I will say I really I enjoyed a lot of the northern parts and then

and then I enjoyed when I went south and south I mean like anything like south of Rome I enjoyed and I don't know if Malta's sorry not Malta Matera. Is that south of Rome?

Yeah yeah, it is south of Rome. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. So I quite enjoyed Matera and then also Syracuse, Syracusa. How do I say that? Yeah, Syracusa, perfect. Okay, Syracusa. Palermo, not so much.

It's a hard city. Probably is like you visit Baghdad. I mean, it's historical. Probably not, probably not. It's also ugly in a way, but you can eat in a way that's credible. Can you? Oh, yeah, so you met you, you, you, missed it out. If you didn't eat

great in Palermo, you did something wrong. Yeah, well, we're here for a very short time. So we got a lot of good stuff in Serra Cusa. But yeah, anyways, I'll stop with the talk. Anyways, I'm going to be seeing some Malded Bitcoiners

very soon. Adam back. I'm going to hang out with him a little bit. Looking forward to that. So anyways, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you. Love everything. everybody watching if you can go give them a follow

their Twitter handles are in the show notes and then from there you can find all the stuff that they're doing and Yoni I will as soon as you drop that video I will share the ever-living shit of it so can't wait

awesome thank you guys have a good one for this cheers all right everybody thank you so much for watching watching a blast. That was a great conversation. I really enjoyed that one. So I'm glad to have all these gentlemen on. Roman, again, who I just met at BTC Prague. Yoni also met at BCC Prague.

And Giacomo, I'm going to tell you a quick story. First time I saw him in person was at Baltic Honey Badger, which is coming up, by the way. If you haven't been there, if you're close to Riga, if you can get there, it's awesome. I would be there if it wasn't my daughter's first day at a new school, but family takes president, obviously. That's going to take president. But I do plan on being there next year. Nonetheless, first time seeing Jacques-Mo in person, I was at Baltic Honeybadger the night before I had been out with Maddox, Francis Pouliott, and another guy from Bull Bitcoin. And we were out till seven in the morning. I managed to pry myself out of the hotel room just in time to sit front row for Giacomo speaking. And we made eye contact just as to the

I lost consciousness in the front row temporarily and then bobbed up and realized that I don't know if Giacomo even remembers it. I should have mentioned it when he was online here. But anyways, that happened. I definitely passed out while watching Giacomo speak in Riga. So it's a damn miracle that he came on the show. Either way, it was a blast. Absolute pleasure.

Thank you guys, again, so much for watching. like, subscribe, share, all those things. They really do help a ton. Of course, you can help out in another way. You can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors. They're in the show notes all down below. You can also hit up my website, btccessions.ca. A ton of free information there, but of interest, if you need some help,

additional help on top of the free tutorials on YouTube. You can book me for one-on-ones in Zoom or Google Meet or whatever you prefer. You can also, if you really like what you see, you can drop me a tip, a tab that says tips on my website, bTCsessions.ca. That'll take you to my personal BTCPACE server and you can drop sats there, on-chain, lightning, whatever you like. You can send me a cuck, bog, you can help me run my voltage node or, pay for my streaming software or help with getting hardware to review and all that kind of stuff.

So nonetheless, that is all there for you. But if you want to help in just a very simple way, just hit that like button. That goes further than you believe and give it a share on whatever your social media is. And that goes way further than you would imagine. And if you're not subscribed, please do because that helps a ton. Anyways, guys, I'm going to wrap up here. Thank you guys so much for being here. And have a wonderful day or evening, wherever you may be.

See you guys next time for your daily session. Huddled by Bitcoin.