BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? HodlSolo, James Dewar, Christopher Gordon, Peter Rounce ep302

Episode Date: November 5, 2022

FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS: https://twitter.com/Bridge2Bitcoin James Dewar https://twitter.com/Bitcoinshire Simon Pither https://twitter.com/HodlSolo Christopher Gordon https://twitter.com/BitcoinSurrey Peter Rounce https://twitter.com/bolt_card 💪 SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shakepay is the easiest way to buy Bitcoin in Canada Sign up now and get $10 free after your first $100 purchase! https://shakepay.me/r/BTCSESSIONS LEDN Bitcoin backed loans –  get $10 free with a savings balance of $75 or more for 15 consecutive days! https://start.ledn.io/btcsessions Coinkite offers the BEST Bitcoin hardware on the market. Use this link to get 5% off anything in their store: https://store.coinkite.com/promo/BTCSessions BillFodl: get your wallet backups in solid steel. https://privacypros.io/btcsessions Bitrefill: use Bitcoin to purchase gift cards, earn sats back while you shop. https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/?code=O04UMic9 BITCOIN tips: https://strike.me/btcsessions

What is going on, everybody. Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish. I'm feeling good today. I'm ready for this. This is going to be a good time here. We've got a killer panel. A bunch of gentlemen in and around bridge to Bitcoin. We'll be chatting about what they're up to and everything. But we've got plenty of reasons to be bullish. And I'm excited. There's some fun stuff coming up in the next week and a half. Probably be. seeing more Bitcorners right away here. But nonetheless, we're going to get into that momentarily. Of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my good friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay.

We'll do it live. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. The thing sucks. If you have not already, like, subscribe, share, all those things help just so much getting this content in front of more eyeballs. So hats

off to all of you that have been doing that regularly. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. All right, before we bring in our guests, let's take a look at where we are in the market right now. Sitting at $21,137 per coin, a single US dollar will pick you up, 4,730 sats.

91.42% of all Bitcoin have been mined. And in terms of fees, a little bit of a spike today, I guess, coinciding with the quote-unquote pump. It's bare market things when you feel skeptical every time the price goes up. But nonetheless, 23 sats per byte next block. However, if you're willing to wait a little bit mid to high single digits, I'll say, should probably do you. Or you could use RBF.

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I don't know. Anyways, we'll wrap that up. Privacypros.a.o slash BTC sessions will get you a little deal. Hey guys, coming up this week, a week from now, it will already be day two of the conference, Pacific Bitcoin. Very excited. I'm going to be down there. I'm doing a cold card deep dive workshop the day following on.

November 12th the Saturday from 1 to 5 p.m. That's, yeah, a week out. Crazy. So if you do want to grab tickets, BTCsessions.ca slash events, you can grab them there. Limited space. They're going quick.

And I want to keep it limited space because it's better instruction. If there's less people and there's more one-on-one time. So be sure to check it out links down below. And if you buy a ticket, there's, again, there's only space for about 15 people. one of you is also going to get a free block clock micro.

I'm going to be given that away to somebody who has bought a ticket. So be sure to check that out. Links are down below. BTC sessions.BTCSessions.com. Sessions.com. Anyways, enough of my blabber. I need to get these guys in here. Very excited.

Introducing Chris, Peter, Simon, and James. Welcome, everybody. I'm very happy to have you all on. I think first thing we need to get it in the way is, is let's just do a quick round of intros, maybe introduce yourself and what you do. And I think I'm going to, I'll toss it to Chris and Peter first.

So Chris, if you want to introduce yourself who you are, what you do, and then toss it to Peter. Cool. Hey, Ben, thank you very much. I just want to start off by saying, thank you so much for having us on BTT sessions. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Cheers.

Yeah, I can't believe we're on here. We had the swan Bitcoin, Bitcoin guys earlier. Was it last week? And such big names and now we're on here. So thank you very much. So who am I? Who are we? So we are bridge to Bitcoin. I am one of the co-founders along with James. The other side, James and Simon below us. So we co-founded Bitcoin, bridge to Bitcoin. I run the Bitcoin Surrey meetup in the UK and met these guys earlier this year. And we set up Bridge to Bitcoin, which on board merchants to accept Bitcoin payments in a nutshell. I won't go on too much because there's three other guys here.

Over to you, Pete. Okay, so I'm Peter Rounce, and I'm working in a similar area, but more on the customer side than the merchant side. So between us, we do the whole circular economy, really. On the customer side, we've got bulk card, open source bulk card system, and we've also got laserized cards, And we'll have a look at probably the map later as well, which is interesting. That's exciting.

These are all things that I'm very happy about because I've played with them. So, well, I'm looking forward to that chat. Let's toss it down to James. Give yourself an intro. Who are you? What do you do? Hi. I'm James.

I run the Barkshaugh Bitcoiners. I'm class of 2020. So I'm a relative newbie here. I spent 20 years in financial services. I'm an accountant. and after finishing, I did a research MSC, which is off my own back, so I got to choose the topic, and I ended up choosing to research Bitcoin versus Gold, and that was 2020. And at the end of that, I thought this is a bit more interesting than just an academic MSC.

So I spent 2021 going down lots of rabbit holes, and eventually thought, I need to do more than just hold Bitcoin and listen to podcasts and read articles, books. So early this year I thought I need to get out there. And so I went up to met Simon and Chris at Rayall Bedford, Pete McCormack's team in England. I needed to get out and find some bitcoins. It was the only place that I knew that I could go because there was no Berkshire Bitcoiners. In fact, there was no Surrey Bitcoiners at the time. I set that up after meeting them. So yeah, that's my quick background, relatively recent. yeah and really i wanted to live in a local economy yeah a circular economy i so and i think we all

shared that idea so it's really a sort of personal desire to be able to spend bitcoin in my uh local community that and i think shared with simon and chris that we then thought well let's get together share share share knowledge build the build what we need to be able to do that and then we thought well why not do the uk as a whole and a month of the later. Yeah. We set it up. This is, this is excited. I'm, I'm already, I have questions floating in my head, but I'm going to hold back a little bit until we get to the, the topics, but very exciting. Let's let's get our last intro here. Simon, aka. Hoddle solo. Welcome, man. Give yourself a little intro. Well, yeah, I'm Simon, and similar story to James, I suppose,

but how we converged at Bedford was a little bit different. I started my Bitcoin journey in 2013, late 2013, unfortunately, because there's a big difference between the beginning and the end of 2013 price-wise. And sort of spent all those years from 2013 to when I met these guys, not really doing much in the community, not doing it. I think really hadn't really met any other Bitcoiners other than the ones that I'd sort of managed to orange pill myself. So it was around the time of the Miami conference in the US when I was watching that on TV thinking like we are so far behind

in the UK we really need to up our game. So thought about what it was that I could do. I started the Northamptonshire Bitcoin Network, which is my local meetup group now. And there wasn't really much of a place that I could find to list it online. There wasn't really any like a website where you could go and list it that I could find that was dedicated to the UK meetup scene. So I created BitcoinEvents.U.K., which is a website here, which lists all of the meetups in the UK and Ireland as they pop up and appear. and I help meetups, you know, as I come across people that have come to our meetup

and that have been travelling quite a long way and we've sort of encouraged them to start their own meetup in their own area. And so that's sort of one of the things I started off doing. That's kind of how I met James and Chris. And yeah, we realised we all had a similar interest in onboarding merchants and growing the circular economy so we um so we you know that's where our stories converged i suppose and um awesome we've been together doing all this since well i'm very glad to hear and i'm i'm i'm already seeing some of the fruits of your labor uh just in in some of the applications and things that are being

created so i'm i'm sure we'll get it we'll get into that um but without further do i guess let's just let's just dive into the show. So everybody watching, if you happen to be a newbie here and you're unfamiliar with the show, pretty simple kind of flow to the show, pretty much we go by the three R's. First, somebody's going to drop a reason why they're bullish, something that they're excited about. It could be a personal experience, an app, a podcast, a, you know, really anything, anything that floats to build anything that's that's currently top of mind so you're going to drop a reason

then together all together we're going to riff on that reason questions comments tangents that we want to go down and then finally we're going to rotate to the next person and so we'll do that until we've all had a go and we're all sufficiently bullish for the evening so i'm going to get us started here I've got a pretty basic concept of why I'm bullish, but it's just there's so much going on right now that I can't help but have this as my reason for the week. So I am bullish on on in-person meetings with Bitcoiners. And the reason is because I'm just surrounded by those events right now. I just got back not too long ago from Charlotte, North Carolina, where Liz and Jacob Parrish put on an event called Hoddle Ween.

And so it was a group of people we had, we had an evening with the Beef Initiative, where they did the cattlemen's feast and they brought in a bunch of beef sentence. So the Beef Initiative is basically a dude from Texas named Texas Slim. He's putting together a bunch of different ranchers, connecting them directly in their local communities with people that want to deal peer to peer. And through that, it's natural to inject Bitcoin into that situation. And through that, I've been able to meet a local rancher here, whom I just picked up a quarter of a cow from and I paid in Bitcoin, which is a beautiful thing. My freezer that I bought specifically for this in the basement now is stocked. And my buddy partook in that too. actually we kind of we split a quarter of a cow together.

So my friend who I orange pilled a few years back in 2017, well, he paid for his beef in Bitcoin as well. So we both stocked our freezers with a local rancher, um, for Bitcoin, which is incredible. So nonetheless,

um, we had a cattleman's feast. Uh, the next day, there were talks throughout the day. I got to open up. Guy Swan was down there, Anders and Pubby from,

toxic happy hour. There was a lot of awesome people there, was very excited to chat with all of them, and then they had a Halloween party. And again, meeting up with the individual Bitcoiners there, hanging out was fantastic. I got home a few days later for the first time in a while, sadly, this is my bad, but first time in a while, I went to a local meet up here in my city, Calgary. There's one called YYC Bitcoin, which is Bitcoin focused. And it's put on by a couple of awesome guys named Russ and Jeff. And it was a great event. There was a bunch of of people there. And again, just meeting in my local community, chatting with them, learning what they do, trying to see where there's kind of connections in regards to,

oh, what do you do for a living? Do you accept Bitcoin? Maybe there's somewhere where you're offering a good or a service that I could connect with you on a peer to peer level. So I love that that's happening locally. And then in five days here, I fly down to L.A. and and we're doing the Pacific Bitcoin conference. And one of my favorite things that's happening, and don't get me wrong, the event itself is going to be amazing, very excited to run a workshop there.

But Anders from Toxic Happy Hour, he's putting on a little pleb party. And by little pleb party, I mean, he has 310 signups for this evening party the day before the day before the actual event, which is, again, it's, I'm very excited just to be surrounded by this many awesome bitcoiner's in one place. And so, by the way, if you're going to be in L.A., come to the toxic happy hour blood party. It's going to be a lot of fun.

It's listed on the Pacific Bitcoin website. So now the reason why I'm excited and bullish on being with Bitcoiners in person is when you go to these things, like especially if you've never met, Bitcoiners in person where you're very seldom do, you're starving for that conversation that can be had, right? You're you, you sit all day, you read articles, you, you listen to podcasts, you listen to even shows like this where we're going to be discussing all of these things. And you want to be part of that conversation. It's like you're, you're living vicariously through the conversations you hear through your headphones. And you get into the situation where you have that one-on-one, oh, I'm talking to you about Bitcoin, and you want to hear it,

which is something that we don't experience all the time. And it's a beautiful thing because there's this kind of just natural and mutual knowing of each other's lived experience in some way, shape, or form. We all have had the feeling of being the weird Bitcoin person in our group of friends, of having the either don't talk to me about that or you can yeah sure whatever but but it's more of a a pity listen instead of actually caring about the topic at hand and then to get into that conversation where somebody's equally passionate about it as you and has different lived experiences but you can come together on that one point is fantastic um you can also learn a lot right

You can say, oh, I tried this thing out. It was really cool. You should give it a try too. And then you can ask people's opinions on, well, I'm having trouble with this. And people are so helpful in suggestions of ways to go, things to learn, things that may bolster your understanding of Bitcoin. And I find just being around Bitcoin is, it's infectious. You get this boost of energy. You're reinvigorated when you're around.

other bitcoinsers. And even to the point where non-bitcoiners or people that are relatively new and are just kind of unsure, they get into these groups of people that are so passionate about something, which I feel is severely lacking in most other people's lives, that they can't help but gravitate towards it. And the perfect example I can think of is my wife. She came down to to Charlotte for Halloween. And she was pretty, she was unsure about the idea of going to a Bitcoin event. She was going,

I really, like, I'm going to come. I'm sure it'll be fun, but I'm not quite sure. And she got down there and just the people that she met and kind of the relationships she created, she was like,

oh, that was, I really enjoyed that. And now she's curious about certain things. She's asking me about mine. We're getting a minor. And she's like, can we? So he was talking about heating.

Can we pipe that heat back into our house? Nice. Like all these questions are coming up. And I'm like, oh, yes, please come to more. And now she's looking because she's not going to be down for L.A. And she's like, oh, I wish I would have cut. Because she saw the 300 plus people going to this pleb party. She's like, ah, damn it.

I wish I was coming to this one. And now she's like, but I'm coming to Miami, right? And so now she's just all in and she's she wants to meet other Bitcoiners. She wants to be a part of it. So I'm very excited to see this because this is what I experience when I see all Bitcoiners from all walks of life. And so I guess in conclusion here, I'll just say that online is fun. Listening to podcasts are great, great avenues to learn. but when the choice comes between Bitcoin Twitter

and standing face to face with another passionate Bitcoiner and having a solid conversation, face-to-face wins every single time. And so if you haven't been to an event or even just a local meetup or if there's no meetups available, start one. Meet your local bitquiners because they're awesome and you won't regret it.

So I'll wrap my topic there. But I'm going to throw it out to you guys thoughts, comments, and I believe that you guys just had an event recently. I saw some footage of some stuff that was going on. So, I mean, just toss in your experiences, your thoughts in and around this topic. Anybody can jump in. The floor is yours, whoever wants it. Yeah, I'll jump in, Ben.

I think you've stolen Simon's thunder. Anyway, I can hear it all again and I'll be each other. Simon is our meetup guru. He is a UK meetup guru. So he really facilitates it. And I completely agree meeting in person is fantastic. When a new Bitcoiner turns up at their first meetup, it's like magic, isn't it? That look on their face where they realize, I'm not alone.

It's real. These people exist. It's not just on Twitter. And you can see the relief in their face and their shoulders. and it's fantastic. I say that meetups are good for two reasons. They're good for the soul, and they're also good for merchant adoption.

I'll come on to that later when we talk about the bullish topics. So yeah, completely agree. And I have to say, working in the Bitcoin space, I've never worked in such a collaborative space before. It's fantastic. I absolutely love working with Bitcoiners.

I think it's because maybe it's because we're new and everyone wants to make it work. It's a fantastic space. to work in. So if you're new to Bitcoiners, I completely agree. Get out there, get to meet us, meet Bitcoiners. Magic happens. Networking happens like on another level that it doesn't happen in the Fiat world. And just to pick up on a couple of things that you mentioned, Ben, the toxic happy hour pled party, 310 sign up. That's not a meetup. That's a freaking conference. What are you talking about? A meetup. We're quite happy if we have double figures in the UK.

Double figures meetup. It's, yeah, this is a good turnout. That's amazing. Yeah, congrats with that. And I like how you call it a pity listen when someone, you're getting off lightly. We get absolutely thrown out, thrown in front of the bus. A pity listen is getting off lightly, yeah. Canadians are a polite bunch, I suppose. But yeah, I also completely agree about learning a lot when you go to meetups. It's fascinating.

We were talking about this, I think it was yesterday or the day before. It's interesting, even OGs. when they come to meetups, or people who've been in the Bitcoin space from way back. Sometimes what we've found is that they were into Bitcoin really early, and then they've kind of not gone onto the Bitcoin Twitter scene, and they're Bitcoiners because they're holding Bitcoin, but they don't know what's happening in the scene. So it's fascinating. So James and Cy, you'll back me up on this.

We've met what we would call OG Bitcoiners. They've been in it for a decade. yet they haven't come across lightning before. Wow. So we were in the Edinburgh conference selling our wares, telling everyone what we were doing. And was it, they came up to you, Simon. Someone came up to you and they were an OG and they said, well, how does this work? How does, and I think it was you, James, actually.

And you were explaining and suddenly realized that they didn't know about the lightning network. And this happened at one of my meetups as well. This guy had no idea. He'd been into Bitcoin for two or three years. and we were talking about wallets, we had our wallet, Satoshi's out, and he was like, what is this? How are you doing this so quickly?

And so it was fascinating, so I completely agree with the learning aspect because things get lost in the sea of information. So yeah, it's great for the soul, and it's great for merchant adoption, as I say. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I don't want to harp on about it too much

because it gets quite cultish, quite quickly, doesn't it? and I'll just carry on talking. So I'm going to pass the mickepe to someone else. Someone else talk. Awesome. Anybody else want to jump in? Simon, I mean, you're the meetup guru, I suppose. I don't know about guru.

But yeah, as Chris said, yeah, we've had people, and maybe not from the meetups, but I think when we've been going around with the merchant adoption kind of, you know, treading the pavements and stuff, there was one guy that just brings to my mind that Michael at the bookshop that was quite close to us where we were exploring some of the old map data and trying to find some of these places that said that they accepted Bitcoin, but we were just looking to see whether they still did. And there was a bookshop that wasn't too far from me. So I went and visited him. And he'd got into Bitcoin in 2012 and bought quite a lot. But then had never bought any more. It just,

discovered it from watching Max Kaiser on YouTube, he said, and never bought any more. And just as the price had gone up, he bought himself a holiday here and, you know, something else there. And when I went into the store and I said, oh, I had you to accept Bitcoin. And he said, well, yeah, but nobody's ever come in to spend any. I was like, right, well, it's going to change today. I want to buy some books with Bitcoin. How are you accepting it? And he, like, had a, he said, well, probably through this, he had like a Wirex app.

I don't know if you have that over there. Oh, yeah. It's got no. Yeah. It's got no lightning. I don't think it has lightning. And so I showed him, I showed him, Wollett, Satoshi, and I showed him the lightning network. And, yeah, he was blown away.

Gave him some stickers and he was off and running. And then he started coming to our meetups and everything. But, yeah, I mean, he's a good example of somebody that had gone all of these years from 2012. and never really met any other Bitcoiners at all. And so there's all sorts of people that you meet at these meet us from all walks of life, real OGs, people that have just come in recently. But we've all got something so common and fundamental in that we're really curious people, I guess, and open-minded.

And there's just an instant connection between Bitcoiners straight away. I love what you just described because it kind of, and I hadn't necessarily heard this kind of trajectory of OG Bitcoiners before, but it's almost like the newcomers of Bitcoin find the OGs and reinvigorate their interest, right? The ones that kind of got lost in the noise along the way realized, oh my God, this thing's still going and look at what's been built since I stopped paying attention. Yeah, I think we forget that, that there are.

are a lot of Bitcoiners that have got lost along the way. Because there was that wave of adoption back in sort of 2013 or so where, you know, like Microsoft were accepting Bitcoin, weren't they? And then they stopped because the transaction fees were too high and it was too slow. And Steam were accepting Bitcoin for games and things. I bought a game back in the day. And then they stopped accepting Bitcoin. And it's like this is the new generation now in a way.

this is this is it's happening again but this time this time we're ready this time we've got the lightning network and we and we can actually do what we what we were hoping we could do back in the day back in 2013 or so yeah so it's it's it's um yeah it's that new blood that's coming in that didn't it's like they didn't know a time before the lightning network yeah these young pups that's great i james i'm going to go to you with your thoughts first and then and then i'll go to peter afterwards because I want to kind of get, again, his perspective on kind of where this conversation is going. But, James, I'll go to you first. What are your thoughts on, again, kind of like the in-person aspect of meeting a Bitcoin or face-to-face and what can come of it?

And what's your experience? Yeah, sure. Just before I do that, just feedback on the last thing that's why I was saying. I mean, I wonder whether in a few years, I mean, I'm class of 2020, but I wonder when in a few years there'll be newbies, coming along to try and rescue us where we've got stuck somewhere along the way. And they'll be showing us all the latest. Oh, wow. That's amazing.

I feel like if you're hitting the podcast circuit and you're chatting about the benefits of meeting other Bitcoin, you guys are probably in for the long haul at this point. So, yeah, going back to my relatively recent story, I mean, I completely recognize what you're talking about then, because I heard. had been in books, reading articles, journals initially in the academic study, because they don't accept journals. I mean, I think I managed to squeeze the Bitcoin standard in there, and they were like, who is this guy who wrote it? Well, I'm not sure he's a recognized academic, but I managed to get that through. But, you know, when you do academic writing, you have to be

quite restrictive of the things that they will accept in your dissertations. But then in 2021, it was anything, because this was then for my own interest, because I thought this was such an exciting area. But then by the beginning of this year, I could feel in myself that I needed to do something, but also that if I didn't get out there and meet people, I would become mentally ill, I think, actually. I think that's what would happen. I'd just go mad. I'd sit on the sofa, watching charts and thinking and watching podcasts and watching The Matrix again and again and again until I just went mad. Because also, you know, I didn't have anyone in my local, you know,

community and friends at the squash club and things like that. No one else was a Bitcoin. And so there was no one really there to talk to face to face. So I knew I needed to do something. And I wasn't sure what would happen. I just knew it would be a healthy thing to get out there and meet some people. So that's why I went up to Bedford. And I think Simon, yeah, you were wearing a little,

A little cap, orange cap, with a badge, with a badge on the side. Tap root, yeah. A little B and I thought, right. So I came and sat next to you, I think, didn't I? And then introduced myself. And did we watch any football? I'm not sure we did. Yeah, not a lot.

No, really. I always say, yeah, no, it's always good that it's actually streamed online so we can watch it back afterwards. We don't actually watch the game where we're there. We have to watch it back in. This is kind of like conferences. There's a lot of talks going on, but you gravitate towards like, God, I just, I listen to podcasts all the time.

I just want to talk to other Bitcoiners for a change. We pretty much missed all of the conference. Yeah. It happens. But I mean, that's kind of what, some of the newcomers that are buying tickets to these things are the ones that are going to gravitate towards listening to the talks. I mean, not in all instances because there's probably some unique, unique panels. And, you know, maybe you're just.

just very excited to see a particular person. But yeah, people definitely gravitate towards the social aspects of these get-togethers as well. Peter, I want to get your thoughts here as well. In terms of meeting other Bitcoiners and kind of, again, you're coming at it. And I don't want to steal too much from the topic that's going to be, I imagine, presented next. But, you know, in terms of meeting other Bitcoiners and kind of building that. community or or just as as James is alluding to an outlet for your madness how how have you viewed in-person meetings with Bick-Hunners well I went for quite a few years without really doing that

being a being a techie I started off designing electronics and I moved into software and then I wanted to make something real so back into you know inventing making real stuff but I was just doing that by myself for years. And it was a chat called Danny Brewster who suggested that it's a good idea to go to conferences. You probably know them. Anyway, so you mentioned

that on a podcast and he made a good argument. And so I did start going to conferences. And in the UK, we used to have ones that were not just Bitcoin, all the other rubbish. So, you know, so that sort of

set me back in that I, you know, I went there and I thought that wasn't what I thought it was. That wasn't real Bitcoin. But then the situation improved. And now in the UK, we've got some really high quality stuff. So we've got advancing Bitcoin. We've got Bitcoin Beach in Wales, which is brilliant. It's not, it's different, it's very different to advancing Bitcoin, but, you know, awesome people. And then Riga's not too far away, of course, and Edinburgh recently. So, so for me, I've only actually been to one meetup down the pub, but I've been to all these conferences and they've been superb. And as you say,

you know, mostly it's going around talking to people. And the best thing I would say for me about talking to people is that you don't have, you can go straight to the point if you like. You know, you don't have to dance around and do the green talk and the, you know, talk about the weather. Well, you know, there's all sorts of frequently asked questions, aren't there?

And after a few years, you're actually not, personally, I'm not interested in answering them anymore. You know, I'm happy to leave that to other people, I know the answer so I'd much rather talk about Bitcoin and get straight to the interesting technical stuff mostly and the other thing that's got value

for me is it's quite inspiring because if you find the right people that you're on a similar wavelength to it does add something which you can't get from just looking at stuff on the internet or going through technical papers or doing thought experiments other people do inspire you sometimes yeah yeah i mean especially you know you've you've talked about working on different things again like um you know there's some of the projects that you've worked on

previously that that feedback from real people as you say as compared to thought experiments can can i imagine expedite the process of of what goes into building those applications of well you know what do you what do you think when you see this or how do you think about kind of the flow of this application? And I mean, if anything, Bitcoiners are good at being blunt. And that really expedites the process. But I mean, that's a good thing. Because I think at the core of any Bitcoiner is a desire to get to get to the root of a problem or get to the path of least resistance to the solution to a problem would would be the better explanation of it.

And yeah, I think that's, if anything, that's what Bitcoiners are looking to achieve. And I think that's why, I think that's why online it can be so abrasive, but in person, it can be so friendly. Because at the end of the day, our goals are the same. But online, there's no, there's no way to detect, um,

the tone in which something is said. And so everything comes. office, man, that guy's an asshole. But really, they just, they're just getting to the point. And sometimes they're doing, they're being an asshole too. But, but nonetheless, yeah, I, you know, I appreciate it for what it is. So nonetheless, I, you know, I'm going to try and cap this, this topic here. Again, I, I think we're all mutually in agreement that, um, when it comes to online versus in person, in person, you can glean a lot, uh, from talking. to your local bitcoins or making a bit of a trip

and meeting Bitcoiners potentially from around the world. I would love to get out to the UK. I do have a buddy there who's, I won't say he's a Bitcoins. He owns some Bitcoin. He hasn't dove down the rabbit hole yet. But I think if I can kind of finagle my way into making a visit to him and then also come into the UK.

and hitting a circuit, it would happen. So cross with my fingers, I'd love to get there. I'll see what I can do. So with that, let's wrap that topic. Let's do a rotation. And so I know Peter, I was just with you. Maybe I'll start it with Chris, but you guys kind of have like a joint topic,

I believe you want to riff on. So I'm going to leave with you guys to kind of present what you're bullish on. I will quickly say to the chat. you guys all for being here. Again, keep those chat comments coming. I'll pull them up if there's anything relevant to ask. And I did want to ask really quick just because it came up. Yellow asked laser eyes card, where did you get the idea for your name? And in a totally different question, where are our free cards? Two questions in one. Okay, so we'll get to that. So that'll be included in the topic.

But I'll let you. So I'll just start off. Maybe not the free cards. Maybe not the free, but we'll talk about the name and it'll become obvious quite quickly. Okay. So we'll just start off with why are you bullish? Let's go with that. Cool.

So why am I bullish? I'll kick things off. So why and what am I bullish about? I'm bullish about merchant adoption in the Bitcoin space. I've got a few props, by the way, Ben. I couldn't help myself. I thought you'd appreciate these. The future.

I thought, I thought, I looked just like Ben. I'm pretty sure you stole those from my notes. I think that's. Welcome to the BTC sessions. I think I just screenshoted that so I could keep it forever. Also, I got to give a shout out here because the, the, with the laser eyes card, we have in the chat right now, and I shit you not, the person who invented the laser eyed meme the literal person that said laser rate 100k chair force hoddle where my laser eye

world please go we'll see what we can do for you anyway sorry i took the spotlight there you no worries ben but yeah we we are super bullish we've even we've even brought our helmets yes we are we are ready we've we've propped ourselves up we've got our rocket booster and everything, guys. To the moon. To the moon. Exactly. We're super bullish about merchant adoption, as I say.

For those who don't know who we are and what we do, we're bridge to Bitcoin and we're on board merchants to accept Bitcoin payments in the UK, although we're looking at seeing what we can do internationally to help people, to help our Bitcoin brothers and sisters abroad. But we're mainly based in the UK at the moment. And why are we bullish? Well, I'll take you on a little journey through. through the Bitcoin space, sort of my

little journey as to why I'm bullish. So most of us on the call hopefully know about Bitcoin. If you're not, you'll know soon. It's the hardest sound as money there is. And when I heard about it, I was like, wow, this is amazing. This is great. This is fantastic.

But I can't buy coffee with it. This is shit. Yeah, it's great if I want to move large amounts abroad and stuff, but it's supposed to be a peer appear digital cash. And other than send large quantities abroad, I can't go down the shops and spend it.

So that wasn't so great initially. But there was a turning point. And for me, the first turning point was the Lightning Network. So I think it was in 2015, the Lightning Network paper was written. And first transaction was 2017. And then we had the Lightning Torch in 2019. And that's when things started taking off. And for me, that was the first turning point, the lightning network and the development of the lightning network.

So for those who aren't familiar with the lightning network, because there appear to be quite a few bitcoinsers who don't know about the lightning network, what the lightning network does is you can transact or you can send Bitcoin on the lightning network, which is a second layer. We think of Bitcoin as the first layer. The lightning network is a second layer built on top of Bitcoin. And you can transfer Bitcoin on the second layer at near zero transaction fees. So if you're moving small amounts, it's great. There are fees that hike up, the larger the amount you transact. But if you're doing small transactions like buying a coffee,

the fees are tiny. They're negligible. And on top of that, with the Lightning Network, it's a near instant settlement. So for those who don't work in the retail sector, if you are a merchant, when you accept a payment system through traditional payment rails, that payment is not settled normally for a few days. The final settlement might not happen for two or three days. So i.e. visa or a master card might not clear that payment for two or three days. So within that period, they might turn around to you and say, actually, that was a full. fraudulent transaction because that that card or whatever that was a stolen card so we're going to

charge that back to you so sorry you gave away whatever it was you sold you sold you sold that helmet for 100 US dollars and you're not going to get it you've lost the helmet so speak to your insurance company with the lightning network it's near instant settlement and I say near instant because it might take a few seconds but it's final it's near instant and final so you have no charge back so just those two things on their own are fantastic. So that was a real turning point for me. Now, the second turning point for me and for us was earlier this year when we formed rich to Bitcoin with James and Simon. And that's what Coin Corner and to a certain extent what Jack Mullers would strike are doing, but certainly for us it was Coin Corner. Now, they released what they

called the bulk card. So that's a contactless Bitcoin debit card. And there was a big sort of foreror about it. Everyone was like, oh, this is amazing. This is great. Now I can tap and pay. And if I'm honest, I was a bit poohy about it. I was just like, we've got that technology about it. Bitcoin's supposed to be, you know, cutting edge. But we're going, we're using technology that exists. I don't get it. We're using QR codes now. That's new. So I was just like, I don't get it. I don't know why everyone's so excited. But what got me excited was the merchant app that they released to go with the bulk card. So for those who aren't familiar, what Coin Corner do is they allow customers to pay with Bitcoin and the merchant can choose to accept that Bitcoin or at

point of sale, they can flip it straight into their local currency, be it euros or pound sterlings. And hopefully other currencies, as hopefully they extend into other countries soon. Hint, a small request, coin corner, Danny, Molly. So that's fantastic because now businesses, if they don't want to have Bitcoin on the books or the balance sheets, they don't have to. They don't have to hold onto it. They don't have to, well, let me put it this way. Some merchants don't want to have the volatility and they don't want to experience that. So that suddenly for me open the doors to a whole load of merchants. So from our perspective, when we now go to business or business comes to us, the conversation piece is not, the initial conversation piece is not

about Bitcoin. It's about this fantastic new payment rail. they can start using because they don't have to hold Bitcoin on the books or the balance sheets. Now, if you're a toxic at maxi, you might turn around and just go, what the hell are you doing? They're not real Bitcoiners. They're not holding the Bitcoin. But for me, that is the start of their journey. And they're adding to the liquidity of Bitcoin and the Lightning Network. And that's really important. You know, they're contributing to the space. And it's an interesting journey. So we had an interesting, so we've onboarded, one of the pumps that we are onboarded, mainly James, thank you very much, James, onboarded a pub in London called the Georgia in Dunnshire,

head down there, it's in Chiswick, W4 by the river, anyone in London. And the owner has two pubs, and we set him up the first pub just outside of Reading. And he said to James, right, I want to flip the Bitcoin I receive into pound sterling. Yeah, no problem. That's great. And then James and I went along to his pub in London a little while later. And we set him up with all the point-and-sell devices and made sure it was all up and running. And without prompting, he turned around to us and he said, do you know, at this pub, I want to hold the Bitcoin. I don't want to flip it.

And as I say, that was without prompting. And that sort of illustrates the sort of soft power of opening the door, to merchants for me. It gives them an option, then they go away, they read about it. And for me, it's an interesting, I quite like the fact that merchants might start off flipping it, because it's a soft sell of Bitcoin, if you like. So for me, maybe this is a harsh way of putting it, but I think we've been selling Bitcoin wrong, as in we've been selling Bitcoin, we're trying to orange pill individuals. And that's a really resource, heavy way of winning people over with Bitcoin.

And it's quite threatening and toxic and can be quite aggressive and cultish because we're effectively saying to people, you're doing it wrong. Your money is wrong. You've got it all wrong. We're right. We're going to be rich. Have fun staying poor. All of that shit.

But by onboarding merchants this way, what we're doing is they're getting Bitcoin is come into their shop or their restaurant or their pub, whatever it is. And if they're flipping into euros or Great British pounds, and they're not holding the Bitcoin, they'll still get Bitcoiners come in. And those bitcoins will come in through their doors. And Bitcoiners are, we're a crazy bunch. We will travel miles to spend our Bitcoin. We will, the catchment area for Bitcoiners,

the catchment area for other businesses, for those Bitcoiners is much larger than your normal customer. And those Bitcoiners will come. And when they get there, they will be the most enthusiastic customers you have ever seen. They will record themselves spending their currency and post it on social media. It's mental.

You don't get that with the US dollar. You don't get someone coming into a coffee shop and going, hey, guys, I just bought a $5 coffee. This is amazing. You only get it with Bitcoin. We post it on social media. We love it. We want to spend our Bitcoin and we love it so much.

We post on social media and we rave about how good and easy it is to do. Get the owner out here. Let's give them a congratulatory round of applause for accepting Bitcoin. Exactly. So what you're getting is you're getting loads of happy people turn up who want to spend their money. That's not like your regular customer. So for me, that's part of their orange pilling.

is all these happy bitcoinsers turning up and it's going to make them think, they're going to think, hold on, we're going through some pretty shit economic types. Yet these guys, they travel fucking far to get here. And then they're really happy to spend their currency and they're thanking me. There must be something to this Bitcoin.

So it starts and thinking it, it so's the seed if you like. I just want to say, what's the name of that pub? Because maybe I should go there and tell them specifically, that I flew from Canada to come to the point. It's the Georgian Devonshire in Chiswick, London, in West London, if anyone's listening.

So, yeah, it starts their orange-pilling journey. And, yeah, it's a much softer power. So as I say, for the pitch, when we go in, the pitch is not initially about Bitcoin. The pitch starts off with, do you want to use a, do you want additional revenue, essentially, because we're going to open up your business to these customers that aren't coming to you. So it's additional revenue. That's the starting conversation. Do you want additional revenue?

And do you want to use a cheaper payment rail? And it's not replacing anything yet. It's running alongside. So there's no... We're not asking you to change anything. We're just giving you something extra. that runs alongside and complements, runs in parallel with the system that a business currently uses. So in other words, there's very little downside.

I would actually say there's only upside. Either you get more business, which is more likely, you get more revenue, or you don't at no cost. Because at the moment, there are companies, and we will help these small businesses with the initial setup. So there's only up. You either get more revenue or you don't. And the evidence is coming, so it's a long story.

And we help with the marketing as well. So we will put it out to our Bitcoiners, to all the local meetup groups, the local to that business. And so we'll make sure that they know that there's this business. So that's part of the package that we offer. And the evidence is that this is really working. So we're seeing,

so the George and Devonshire who opened their doors to Bitcoiners, was it last week? I think it was last week in January. Yeah, last Friday. Instantly, as soon as we posted it on Twitter, they had people that afternoon coming and all weekend there were Bitcoiners rolling through the doors literally posting videos on social media and all this week because I was in the sister pub this evening for the Berks meetup and the manager there said that the owner had been saying every day this week

he's had customers who wouldn't have had otherwise so yeah I love to hear that this is very sorry to interject but I just this is very parallel to there's a guy in in Miami Beach And he runs a taco place called Tekeza Tacos. And I was in Miami in 2021. Gladstein was putting on the Oslo Freedom Forum there and or was involved in organizing it. So I was speaking there. And I said I was going to be in town. I tweeted out, hey, I'm in town.

What Bikorners are around. And John, the owner of Tekeza Tacos in Miami Beach, said, hey, I own a taco joint. This is where we're at. comes into tequisa tacos uh you know we'll we'll set you up well so bring some bring some binkliners um bring some plebs down and uh and we'll you know we'll see what we can do we accept bitcoin here lightning we accept all of that sweet we show so i get there's like me guy swans stepan lavera like a bunch of and then like 10 or 12 other plebs we show up dude is like great come on there's a table in the back we're going to and he fed us all tacos he gave us all tacos the whole night for free

then i mean we tipped the we tipped the shit out of the staff obviously like more than we would have paid for the tacos for sure but nonetheless like the gesture was like and then flash forward a year later to the bitcoin 2020 conference his taco joint was packed every night every big Bitcoiner just and I think Unchained Capital had their had their like staff party there. There was all like Bitcoiners and my Airbnb was above the taco joint in an apartment there. It was amazing. And so I'm so happy because you're so right. It attracts people and they will they will move.

They will move the earth to just to get a taco, right? and pay in SaaS. It's beautiful. It's fantastic. And we've got hard data to show that as well. And so, yeah, I'm bullish about merchant adoption. We're getting loads more merchants on the map. And actually, I've got a map to share.

And hopefully, we had a little trial run earlier, and I kind of messed it up. Let's see if I can bring it up to share with, let's see, can I do that? I'll tell you when I see it. oh no let's just share my screen apologies everyone so let's share screen screen so i am gonna and don't worry if you you accidentally show the stream screen we'll get a little bit of stream caption and people can see backstage cool yeah um so i'll bring up the private chat so that everybody can see our private conversations of all the travel so that's how do i i'm probably

the least technical person. So present, share screen, and then... Is that cool? So that's the screen I wanted to show you guys. So this is... I'm not seeing it. Oh. Try it again?

Present, share screen, click on the one that you want, and then hit share. Oh, I see, I see. On window, you see. Pete's talking me through it. I'm the least technically minded person. I just like this. Oh, I see it. here we go there's streamstption there we go this is our backstage just so you know

cool there we go so this is apologies guys and you got to click on the right uh the right tab or did you pick the wrong window might be can what can you what can you see i see the btc sessions backstage screen i think you pick the wrong window i think i think pete the guy building all the apps is going to have to you're going to help me is going to uh is going to have to do you Go on Pete, what am I doing wrong? This is kind of killed my flow. Go on Pete. I'm enjoying this.

I'll let Pete do it and then I'll explain why the technical people build application. Yeah, I am probably one of the least technical people that exist in the Bitcoin space. It's quite embarrassing. So as you watch Pete Masters way through this process, he is the one that's building many of the fantastic applications and websites. that you use with Bitcoin. And so you'll be able to appreciate that. Oh, what about my slide?

I want my slide, he's putting up his slides. He doesn't care about it. Problem with the client, sorry. He's hung me up to dry. He's just putting his slides up. Okay, so you could, that's all right, all your stuff in it has. Tell you what, I'm going to, I'm going to quit while I'm ahead and just say,

I've got a slide. I've got a slide that shows. the number of merchants in the last four months was almost doubled in the UK. So we've gone from, I think it's 51 merchants excepting Bitcoin to 91 in the space of four months. And it's a better graphic. It doesn't sound like very much because we're a small country. But the graphic is pretty cool because we've got a map with all the Bitcoin logos, with all the merchants that accept it.

And it's, it looks fantastic. So yeah, I'm super, I'm super bullish about merchant adoption. Princey, one of our fellow, one of another podcaster, Daniel Prince, he gave us a phrase, accept it and they will come. And that seems to be true because it happens. There's the Suffolk Jungle rooms. They often have meetups there and they get people from all over the place coming. And ideally, I'd like to see a Bitcoin accepted here sticker on every high street.

And I think we're not too far off. And I think there's, we, we do this strange thing in Bitcoin. We evangelize Bitcoin, don't we? It's like this thing that's going to, it will, it will fix everything. But we do evangelize it a lot. But actually, what I think would be good is if we normalize it. That's one of my tags. Let's normalize Bitcoin.

Don't evangelize it. That just scares people off. Who are these crazy, culty people? We just want it in society. It's a peer-to-peer digital cash system. So, yeah, we're almost seeing a new business every day. So gradually, even suddenly, I think it's happening. I love that you brought up Daniel Prince,

because this is how I'm going to segue into getting Peter on his merchant side stuff here. But the quote that Princey gave you, accept it, and they will come. He uttered those words to me. as we made our way through a town in Spain following the conference in France, which was surfing Bitcoin.

We went across the border into, I can't remember the name of the town now. We were in Bioritz. It was San, I can't remember. Nonetheless, there was one guy who served coffee and like falafel or something like that. like something in somewhere in this Spanish town that accepted Bitcoin.

And and we met him in, we met him at the conference. And, and Dan was on a mission to find his shop and make sure that we went and we bought anything from him. And so it was me, Daniel Prince, his wife and all of his children, of which there are many. It's like wandering through the old town to find this one shop of this dude who actually is from Canada, who moved to Spain and open up his shop, and to hunt it down before it closed for like the siesta in the afternoon. And we found it. We got there.

We met up with them. We took pictures again, like did a stream or did pictures about spending our money with this bitcoiner in Spain on a coastal town. And it was beautiful. And like in what other instance would you get that? And I think the time is ripe for merchant adoption. I think it was too early in 2014, 2015, because the inevitability of scaling and having to introduce second layers was there. Well, the time has come and pass for that.

And now we do have the lightning network. And it's here. You can do on chain, but like lightning is kind of the way to go to future proof yourself. And so with that, I want to come. kind of jump to Peter and talk about your experience in and around, you know, merchant adoption from the perspective of the person actually making the purchases. Yeah, sure. Well, so I'm from class of 2012, I suppose.

So I remember 2013 and 2014 when we were excited about the technology. We knew it was a zero to one moment, digital scarcity. and we knew that it worked, I think, for the first time, it was decentralized and it worked. So that excitement led to going out and demonstrating it to people. And when you demonstrated it in 2013, 2014, you would send, you would get someone to install a wallet, you'd send them some Bitcoin, and then you'd wait 20 minutes for a block or two, you know. And that's kind of where it failed in terms of a demonstration. Obviously, technically it didn't fail at all, but it required a lot of expectations.

explanation if someone didn't sort of get it immediately, maybe didn't understand the cryptography or whatever. So I would say there's a big difference, as you say, with the Lightning Network and where we are now with things like the Bolt Card, that's made it so much easier. The user experience, the customer experience is completely different. It's reached the state that the legacy financial systems in and I would say is going past it now. which is of course the whole plan really

you know we're not going to take them on we're going to build around them so so with the with things like the bulk card for example the bulk card is actually a very simple idea it's purely an NFC card which gives a different reading each time and this is based on some clever technology by an XP see, when a customer comes to use it, though, they're simply going up to a point of sale terminal at the merchant, looking at how much it is and tapping to pay, just like you would.

I looked it up earlier. So in the UK, we've had tap to pay for since 2007. Is that right, 2007? I have to check. Yes, 2007. And the US, I think it's been a bit more recent, 2017. And so you see a different response with UK and US customers. In the UK, everyone's used to tapping to pay.

It started off as £10 and then it was 20, then it was 40. And there wasn't a problem. You know, this problem where you think someone's going to come past you and, you know, tap your card in your pocket, it just never really happened. The reason I'm laughing, Pete, I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the chat. Oh, I can't see that. Ben, just drop water all over his crotch on the freezing coal. So apologies, apologies for wondering why I'm giggling beside you.

Sorry, I'd let that out. Sorry. I'm equally intrigued by the bold card and the point of sale, but also I did just drop melted ice all over my crotch. Sorry, Paul. Sorry, I was about to burst out. Nonetheless, continue. I do, and I, I'm going to interject while my nuts are on the table here, but I will say that I played around the bolt cards and,

and just like while we're on the topic of them, just as an example, even just as a learning tool, it's fantastic because, so my daughter is now five years old in kindergarten, and she's starting to learn about the concept of like, oh, you work, you spend. time on something and I'm trying to convey the concept of like, oh, what do I do all day? Why does mommy go somewhere and then come back and why am I in my office all day doing something and then I'm done and like, what is that for? Well, I do that because what I do, people consider

valuable and they're willing to give money for it in a roundabout way and then money pays for stuff. So when you see that daddy is busy, all day for something. It's because it's the act of doing something that people value. So they'll give you money and that money will then buy stuff. And so she's coming around to the concept of like, okay, you spend time on something that somebody thinks is actually worth something. They'll give you money for it. And then you can buy stuff with that money. And so then now she's learning how to, oh, I want to make a store and she's got like her little kitchen downstairs and she'll make a meal and she'll come out and she wants to and she'll pretend before she was saying oh I'll just pretend to

give me money well now with the bold card um what I've done is I've taken breeze and I've created a point of sale and I put little icons on the different things that she could charge me for so now in practice she'll go and she'll have it and she'll tap the things that I bought it'll auto put in the amount and then I've got my card and she'll say she'll like hold out the phone that I have and I'll tap the bolt card and I'll pay her actually in sats for what she's made me from her kitchen. And it's just just again to to help conceptualize like, hey, your time and the value of what you do with it results in this conduit to being able to purchase something. that's kind of what I'm working on instilling.

And it's an interesting thing to try and impart on somebody. But again, that that medium of having actual real transfer of value, even though it's like, oh, I paid 10 sats for something or whatever. The concept becomes there. She sees the number. She sees number going up. She understands, I did something. And somebody wanted that and they paid for it. And so the bulk card, even outside of an actual economic activity as a learning tool, is incredible.

So sorry, I interjected with a couple things. That's great. So actually, that's a different market. That's the toy market. You better write that down. I mean, that's a great idea. What I find most interesting about that is that obviously your teaching is something important. but the other thing that springs to mind for me that can be taught is competence, right?

And the fact that everything there is permission free and you can actually do it all yourself. You don't need to involve a third party. So you can be self, or your daughter can be a self-sovereign merchant, you can be a self-sovereign customer, you can have a whole circular economy and you're totally technically competent, self-sufficient, you're not relying on anyone else to do anything for you there. And the only reason that's possible is because, Bitcoin is permission free, you know.

And that is what enables us to do all this, to make all this technology, because we don't have to go and knock on someone's door and say, oh, please, can I come and play with your amazing toys and your, you know, chip fabricator or whatever. Do you think, do you think now with maybe a generation of kids growing up in that situation where, and James, I love that you brought up the toy market because, holy shit. if I don't get royalties from this shit. Like, Chair Force is already in their comment shaking. Literally shaking.

But nonetheless, like, okay, imagine a generation of kids. And this kind of harkens back to an old talk from Andreas Antonopoulos. And he was like, well, you have a whole generation of kids that are going to be, you know, they get to 16 when they're finally allowed to have a bank account. And they realize like, Well, why am I paying you to do the thing that I've been allowed to do forever? And I mean, is my daughter one of those people? My daughter is one of those people that Andreas Antonoblo has talked about in the early days of Bitcoin.

That is going to get to the age. This is hitting me as I'm saying it, but she's going to get to the age where she's allowed to open up her bank account. She's allowed the privilege of opening up a bank account with $10 a month fees and overdraft issues and and all of the shit that comes with a bank account. She's going to go, why? Why would I deal with this? Why would I bother? And that's, that's awesome. That hits me there because I didn't, I didn't realize when I was nodding along to that talk when I heard it like six years ago.

that it would be my daughter that was being spoken about then. It's happening fast, yeah. It's the cyphor punk dream, isn't it? You build around it, build around the problem. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. I don't know, Peter, did you want to add anything? Should we allow JD and Simon to comment a little bit more? I can talk more about the bolt card.

I've got another interesting thing that's happened recently. Yeah. It might be worth, it's worth having a look on the, on the Twitter, bolt underscore card, where we've retweeted a lot of stuff from Bitcoin Beach, Brazil, where they've got an excellent thing. It's very similar to Elzonte in a way. They are forming a community,

which is self-sufficient, self-sovereign competent. It's all open-source stuff, not relying on anyone else, you know, obviously using open-source technology, they've printed up their own cards 2,000 cards, managed to get them into Brazil, which was one of the big things with customs and whatever. Anyway, they've gone to overcome all these technical and logistic issues and so forth,

and they've started off-seeded it in a school. So they're actually using, I think they are using Breeze, and they're using LNBits, T-POS as point-of-sell devices. and then they're using I work with Rob Clarkson on the open source bulk card stuff and Rob has made an excellent app which Ellen Bitsen are now also using

for programming up the bulk card so they've programmed up hundreds of these and they've given them out to the school kids and I think this is brilliant I mean for one thing a bulk card if you were just to get the chip the chip is 20 cents okay so you can't just do with a chip

You have to have a card with a coil in it, so forth, to make it work. And that's a dollar. And then you print it up, and obviously the price goes up. And we'll talk about the premium laser eyes cards. But anyway, so it's a dollar, really. You know, if you just want to, if you want 2,000 cards like that, they're a dollar each, which is amazing, I think, because it's way cheaper than a phone.

It's open to everyone. So they're, anyway, so they've handed out 400 old cards to these kids, and they're coming up and buying their fruit. at lunchtime, 10 sats for a satsuma and all this stuff, and it just works. And the kids, you know, I think there must be six or something, but as far as they're concerned, it's just money and it just works. And now it's, now it's turning up into local merchants. They're getting POS devices into local merchants. And how amazing, if you, if you see how that started, it's obviously that's a bit like Elzonte, but that, it's not toy, it's not toy money

at all. You know, they can bring their card to the UK and spend it in the Georgian, Devon, if they want. It's completely worldwide and no permission required. This is this is incredible to see because again this is I mean there's a couple aspects of it but like the fact that these kids like I think of the financial education I got in school and it was nothing right it was it was zero by the time I got out of school I think there was, I seem to remember like a project in school where they were like, how much is, pick your favorite car and then figure out how much it would be to pay for it every single month. And, and there was like very little, if any, guidance around that. And it was like,

I don't know. It says the payment is this much. I don't know. And it became like, that's as much as I gleaned from that project. And so you get out of high school and you're like, I don't know how to do anything. I don't know anything about maintaining myself as a financial entity in the world, about income, about taxes, about just making a budget for myself. So I'm not screwed all the time, let alone how money works. And so to see these kids building these foundations this earlier, man, the world is going to change so much in a single generation.

Picture the knowledge that these kids are gaining right now at six is probably more knowledge than I had by high school age. right like they're they're they're they're building stronger foundations than i had like well into junior high and high school um in terms of of kind of especially if they're dealing with bitcoin holy crap i can't i can only imagine how this this this this i don't know extrapolates out to the communities that they go on to touch just normalizing isn't it it's just it's normalizing the whole process of of what bitcoin is it's like in the early days of the mobile phone or something in the 90s in the middle of the 90s where you saw somebody carry in a mobile phone and they were like this really what the hell is that guy doing over there but we should use

a tagline normalize don't evangelize yeah yeah it's it's it's taking something that it feels weird to people to start with when And that's the whole thing with going back to the meetups that when you see Bitcoin accepted here on the on the cash register or the on the counter or whatever, that there's people that are not Bitcoiners that are seeing that and it's just normalizing it in their mind to them. The kids that are doing it. They're just growing up and it's normal to them that my kids get their pocket money in Bitcoin and it's just normal to them. It's never been a time where it's been a weird thing for them. But it's, yeah, the only thing I can kind of think about in my lifetime is that the progress of the mobile phone where it was a weird thing to see somebody making a phone call in the supermarket was really weird. And now everybody on the planet pretty much has got a mobile phone.

So it's it's, that's part of the job, I suppose, of the meetups and it's part of the job of merchant adoption. that there's so many people that will come into a pub and it just sparks a conversation, doesn't it? And it's the whole process of normalising it until it's not weird until it's just like, and people would just learn a little bit from watching others do it as well. The kids are learning between them.

Someone's watching in the pub while somebody else is paying and realize how quick and easy it is. And that's going in there somehow, you know, that's going in and they're they're able to you and then they sort of then that spikes the conversation with them that you know these guys are paying with bitcoin over there and it looks really easy you know even if they don't say that loud they're kind of thinking that yeah and so it's the whole process of just making this normal yeah yeah i i i don't want to interject too much but i i do want to keep things rolling but i want to bring up something that i i want that uh that uh to do with peter

that I had queued up and I wanted to just touch on it. And I guess I'm going to throw in a call to action with this. That if you're a Bitcoiner and you offer any sort of a good or service or perhaps you have a boss above you that you can finagle into this, perhaps it's worth exploring this. And so I'm going to bring up this screen and then I'm going to get Peter to explain. what's going on here. But this is BTCmap.org.

Yeah. Peter, can you tell us what this is? This is a superb project. So this only started, I think, maybe a month ago. And I'd say it's actually, you know, it's very mature as a project already. Made by Nathan Day. I had a very small part.

But, yeah, Nathan Day and some other people. It pulls data from Open Street Map. and what you see here is is the map of all the merchants in the world that accept the bulk card. So it's filtered for NFC, which is, you know, same thing. You can see all of the merchants in the world

that accept Bitcoin, and there's obviously thousands, 7,000 or so. A lot of them are still from 2013-14 and legacy and needs to be updated and that's happening. But the most interesting, thing for me, I think, is, are you changing it?

Is the bulk card stuff? Yeah. And so what has been happening over in the past is that people have put up their own Google Maps, which have limits of like 100 or something, and these were all sort of siloed maps all over the place, and that data is being pulled into Open Street Maps, which is where it should be, and then it's pulled out by BCMAP.org and displayed nicely. There's also apps as well But yeah the website is

Superb so if you're looking for a merchant This is the place to go Yeah I would like to encourage every Single Bitcoins that's like if you're I'm seeing everybody in the chat right now I see everybody the number of people watching right now And obviously there's people coming in Off and on through the podcast But what I'm going to say is

If you're a person, you're interested in Bitcoin and you work for a company or you own a company and you offer goods and services, add yourself here. Go to BTCMap.org. Like right now, go there, open a tab, bookmark it. And as soon as this is done, add yourself as a merchant that will accept Bitcoin. And just if you got staff, just let them know, hey, if somebody asks about Bitcoin, then give my direct contact info.

Because, I mean, it's worth establishing those links with individuals so that you can build that community. But like, again, just going back to, you know, we were looking at, we were looking at, this is specifically for NFC, but if you go to this generally accepting Bitcoin, obviously the numbers are much larger, but there could be a number of things that are out of date. I think Canada needs to step it up.

I got to say Calgary, what are you doing? Come on. Seven, seriously. Six. Airdre is like north of Calgary. That doesn't even count. I'm not going to drive out of Calgary. But like, come on.

There's like, what is this? Racquet network. I mean, great. If you like racket sports, fantastic. What do we got? I don't know what that is. Device Media Design. There's Waves Coffee House.

I know Waves accepts it. What else do we got here? like a music center, there's Bitcoin ATM. But like, again, if you're a Bitcoin merchant, if you want to be accepting Bitcoin, if you want to link up with Bitcoiners, number one, first topic, go to your local meetups, start meeting other Bitcoiners. Number two, list yourself on something like BTCmap.org and on BTCmap.org to make sure that Bitcoiners that are searching you up that may not be in the meetup that you're currently

at know that you're there. Can I just say it's quite memorable as well because I know the first bulk card business in Canada, the first business in Canada to accept the bulk card is called Pizza Base and it's in Rosalind. Oh really?

I did not know that. That's awesome. That's amazing. So I went to, funny enough, I went to add myself to BTCMap.org but because I don't have a static location, like I'm not going to put my house. I got rejected.

You can't. But, hey, idea for future development, I would love to have like if there was an option for like local but mobile businesses. And so you could set maybe like a geo mapped or what would it be called a geoloced kind of like location circumference where you could say like, hey, I'm within this city or this range of this specific location, 50 kilometers out, I'm willing to travel, and I'm a mobile business. I think that would be incredibly valuable to add to here

because a lot of people, they have quasi-local businesses, and I think that would be great. Yeah, we've talked about that in the chat, actually. It's something we want to do. It just doesn't fit onto open street map directly. The other thing that's been talked about is meetups and conferences and time-related events. I think it will come at some point.

Just to piggyback on what you were saying, Ben, if you have a business and you're not accepting Bitcoin yet and you're in the UK, get in contact with us, and we'll help you get on that map. We'll help you accept Bitcoin, get in contact with us, and we'll see what we can do for you. There's a myriad. There's a plethora of choices out there.

We'll hone it down and we'll get you on the map and we'll get you that extra revenue. And just to add that we have a, is it a Google Maps? but we're hoping to transition onto Open Street Maps at the moment within Almost all the data's over on Open Street Map There's just, there's a couple

of technical differences and So the Open Street Map is definitely the way that we need to be going but it's very much focused at, I think, Bitcoiners finding businesses and businesses promoting themselves to Bitcoiners.

What we're doing in Bridge The Bitcoin, however, is talking to them about marketing and what we present to them needs to be UK-focused and kind of, I think, the diagram, if you like, it's essentially, if we could construct it from the data on Open Street, which I'm sure we could, then we could make something that looked as sharp as the thing that we've got. So it's just literally our presentation and materials just need a little bit of work between what we do and to get the data. out of some different representation of the data on OpenStreet map. It's kind of the thing that we're looking I have the answer for you, James. Yeah. So at BTCMap.org have a thing

called communities. You just set yourself up as a community and that will do it for you, I think. Why is I've got to ask here in terms of concentration of Bitcoiners.

What's the deal over here? Where? So you have to be careful because I think that there is some old data in here. And so sometimes it can be that a certain area just hasn't been cleaned up as maybe as much as others. So there are some. Yeah, if you click on one of them, for example, it will show you a survey date so you can tell whether if it's out of date or not sometimes. Okay. All right.

Fair enough. Yeah. So it is very interesting, though. But as stuff like this gets built out, again, To quote Daniel Prince, and I'm so glad this was brought up, accept it and they will come. But not just accept it, you got to let people know, and they will come. They will come with their bullet cards. They will come with some exciting bulk cards too.

Is that a nice segue? Yeah. I mean, could have just, before we leave this, one other thing, Ben, if it's okay. All the Bitcoin is on this call. get yourself into OpenStreet map and tag or even if there's no Bitcoin businesses in your area, but the map says that there are, go and clean the data up because one of the biggest issues that that data has is that there's old stuff that isn't relevant. Maybe it's set up in 2013, 2014, the business is closed down, it's moved away, the owner's changed, they don't take Bitcoin anymore. A number of things have happened and we've been working hard in the business.

the UK to get rid of all of that old data and I'm not sure how many other countries have kind of actively gone out and cleaned up data. So if you're looking at, go and have a look at that map in your area and if you recognize stuff that's wrong and those businesses don't exist anymore or they don't accept Bitcoin, get rid of them. Because if you, adding good data into something where there's a lot of bad data makes it very quite unreliable. So there's two jobs to do. One is to add the new businesses and go out and, as Ben was suggesting, get new businesses on board. But the other thing, just as important, just as important to make this a useful, useful application is to get rid of the stuff that isn't correct. Yeah. It's equally important

right now. I agree. And just shout out, uh, yellow. Don't zoom in on Greece. Well, let's, let's take a look here. Let's see what's going on. not super impressed with the number here but i i you know athens is doing pretty well i've been up to uh like capillonia and in and around this area here and it is beautiful but two come on guys what do you got corfu there's a restaurant great but uh yeah i mean Athens seems to be where it's at i did do a chat at the athens meetup which was incredible because i was on a rooftop overlooking the Acropolis. It was insane to do a talk there.

And then Yellow gave me a ride on his motorcycle after meetup back to my hotel, back to the place I was staying. So you can picture that, if you will, a little yellow puppet giving me a ride on his motorcycle through Athens. But it was fantastic. So yeah, anyways, you're welcome. You're welcome, Yellow. But okay, so I want to keep this moving because I don't want us to, again, you guys are in the UK.

You're going to die if it gets too late. So I got to keep it moving here. But I'm going to wrap this topic. I'm going to toss it down. Again, summary here, if you're a Bitcoin merchant or you're a Bitcoiner that's looking to make peer-to-peer connections with local businesses or with the, you know, the owners of local businesses, then you got to get yourself out there. You can't just sit there silently and hope that it will materialize.

And that's why you've got to get out. You've got to meet other bitcoinsers. You've got to find out what they're doing and say, hey, do you know, what do you do for a living? Do you, is there a chance you'd accept Bitcoin for it or you could convince your boss to accept Bitcoin for it? Do that, especially if it's something that you want to utilize. And beyond that, again, like the more connections to you, make around this stuff if you're a bitcliner go out to btc map.org add yourself if you're a static

business or maybe in the future if you know they add additional functionality around different types of businesses that are maybe more mobile fantastic and just let it be known and if you're an individual if you're somebody that wants to pay in bitcoin go to the places that you spend money the most and say hey would you consider accepting bitcoin and and even add the caveat if you don't want to hold the Bitcoin, you don't have to for the time being, like whatever you choose. And then that's their segue. That's, that's their initial step down the rabbit hole.

Because as was mentioned here, all of a sudden you get these crazies that are driving across the country, the province, the state, whatever it may be to come and buy a beer at your pub. and you start going, huh, what's the deal? Like, why are people doing this? And you very quickly get an orange built from that. So wrap that up, but I'm very excited for the duality of this merchant versus consumer aspect of this joint topic. I'm going to toss it now to James.

And without too much fanfare or excitement here, I'm just going to ask you the simple question, why are you bullish? So I think I'd summarize my position as macro will be macro. So I get a little bit, we're working at the Coalface on merchant adoption. And I just get a little bit annoyed with all of the conversation about price and high-level markets, chain analysis, all of the graphs and the price predictions. And actually, when it comes down to it, what I'm really interested in is what's going on on the main street of this. business, right? If this was a business, what would I be looking at? I'd be looking at customers. I'd be looking at the visibility in the real world. I'd be looking at metrics that are not

necessary technical. They're not necessarily something that you see on a graph or a computer screen. And it takes me back to a video that I saw of Jeff Bezos in the dot-com crash being interviewed about why the Amazon share price had fallen 95%. And his sort of response to the interviewer was, well, the business that I'm looking at has got customer growth, retailer growth, growth in the early days of what they were doing with AWS. He said, as far as I can see, everything's going up, everything's looking great in this business. I mean, the markets just do what they do. Then it's 95% down, but everything about this business is great.

Now, if I was looking at Bitcoin from what I'm seeing, what we're doing and what I'm seeing on a day-by-day basis, I would say that's exactly what Bitcoin looks like. And, you know, apart from the merchant adoption, apart from the meetups, apart from the conferences, the number of conferences, the number of attendees at those conferences, just going up and up and up. That's sort of basic stuff. Lightning liquidity, just going up, right? I don't see how that's not going to continue going up.

things like new layer 2 plus use case innovations in money but also beyond money and so this is this idea of IT security solutions actually being what Bitcoin is and that that's just money is just one application of that a great application but actually it's just what Satoshi described as the reason for him doing this or creating this or them or she was money. But actually what they appear to have created, and this is taking from Adam Back and Jason Lowry's ideas here, so give them a hat tip.

What they appear to have created is a unique ability to tie real-world cost to virtual applications. One of those virtual applications is money, and that's the one that Satoshi had in mind. but the scope of what this might be is more than a lot more than money. It will do money, but it could be much bigger than that as well. And so for me, that kind of strategic understanding of what this is, if between that kind of unique ability to tie real world cost to cyber,

space, I think is how Jason Lowry describes it. For me, that's bigger than money. And the money's big enough, right? But this is an ultimate solution to a huge,

huge problem both now and even bigger into the future. So it's not just about money. Money's just one application because money is a virtual idea. So money is a virtual idea. So money is a isn't a real thing.

What, when even when we had physical cash, even when we had gold, what we're really transferring isn't that. It's the idea of the value that it represents. And so, tying, being able to tie that to the real world and everything in cyberspace, potentially, in terms of the security of everything, that's what this technology enables. So it doesn't just enable the instantiation of money, but it enables potentially all of this other stuff. And so for me, that's an incredibly bullish idea because what it says is not only is the specific role of money and payments, something where I can see on Main Street, all of these

metrics growing, but actually there's this whole other set of things that people are only just beginning to grasp at what Bitcoin might actually solve, that make it even bigger than the than most of us would have even thought, I know, six months ago. So that's why I'm Jewish. I really like that. So it's again, the topic that you're getting at here is, is the idea that before there was this very, it was very pronounced the separation between real world value and the digital representation of that value. But what Bitcoin has done is tied to that digital representation to the laws of physics.

It's made it possible to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And which is, again, and juxtaposed against some of the kind of like non-Bitcoin stuff we've seen going on recently. Again, like this shift of Ethereum from proof of work to proof of stake. And you hear Vitalik talking about things like, well, you know, know, Bitcoin is constrained by the laws of physics and what a computer is and what it can do. But we want to create kind of like a, I can't remember the vernacular that he used, but he basically said that like we want to be able to create an imaginary universe where we can change the laws of physics.

But if you want certainty of how your money is going to function, then why would you not want it tied to the laws that you are familiar with and that are immutable, right? You want that certainty of how is this money going to function? How is it constrained so that I can make actual calculated economic decisions in my day-to-day life? And so that that tying of a digital medium for the expression of our value, like where are we placing the fruits of our labor? Tying that digitally, but with the laws of physics, allows us to have the benefits of it being digital and global, while also still having the properties of sound money and the lack of debasement that has kind of plagued

fiat currencies over time. And so you have this global thing that, again, it can't be debased and it's censorship resistant. And you understand that it's immutable, that to change it would just be so incredibly difficult that it's kind of your best bet in terms of the rule, of the system staying consistent. And that's a very unique thing.

And I think that most people don't understand that. I mean, clearly, most people in the globe don't understand the value of that because not everybody's using Bitcoin. But even in the people that have bought into the idea of quote unquote blockchain, don't understand the values that are kind of tantamount to this working. is kind of my take on it. But I'm curious to hear some of the other people on the panel. Maybe I'll jump to Simon first, your take on, you know, what's the true innovation here?

Like what has been accomplished that wasn't possible before? We're going deep now, aren't we? Sorry, I guess. It's going to be my section. You know it's going to be like that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you've said it. It's tying the digital realm to the real world, and that's what, until we become, like, humanity becomes beings of energy that leave our bodies and exit into the universe,

we need to be tied to the real world. So Bitcoin, yeah, that's one of the major super-dipar revelations of it, and the innovation that once you get digging into the deepness of what it means, this is the things that when you first get into Bitcoin, you've no idea that you're going to head into these sort of realms of, of deepness, you know, it's the stuff that I love to listen to, but it blows my mind, you know, like talking about that sort of stuff. it's it but it's yeah it's it's stuff did did satochi really even consider i suppose he he he must have

done you know some of that stuff but yeah i i'm i'm not sure i'm not sure because i think he i think they whatever wanted to create money and it and it's a brilliant application yeah but but what they may have created is in fact perhaps more than that it's a generalized solution to a problem of tying anything virtual in cyber state to the real. They open Pandora's box in a very positive way, right? It's, I wanted to fix one thing, but oh, my God, I fixed it. I accidentally. Yeah.

I accidentally picked the world. And there was those touch points, I think, who was it that said about the energy being tied to that one day we would have an energy money. Was it? Henry Ford. Henry Ford, yeah. There's a newspaper article, isn't there, that talks about that. So that sort of stuff was kind of out there.

And, you know, Hayek said about the sly roundabout way. Was it Hayek that said that? Yeah, it was. So, you know, these things have been touched on. But, yeah, that's the genius. Whether intention. to actually build it, to actually build it is the genius. Put those things together, you know, with the difficulty adjustment and the proof of work

and get all those components together to make it become greater than the sum of its parts. And it's so many great parts. And it's just, you know, it's something that is just so incredible. It's what keeps us all here. It's what keeps us all interested in thinking that there's so many layers. to the onion that we just carry on thinking about it and we lay away at night thinking about it and we go to meetups and there's never an end to the different subjects that it covers. You know, it's never ending, isn't it?

There's no bottom to the rabbit hole that we can hear now. You can keep going. I think I want to toss to Peter here and kind of pose the same question. Again, like, what do you think was solved that? that keeps on kind of bringing people in and captivating kind of their interest in and around this. What's the main thing that keeps people here? I think from a computer science point of view, it's digital scarcity. That was what happened.

We couldn't have digital scarcity in a decentralized way before. It just wasn't, we didn't know how to do it. and when the Bitcoin white paper in the software was released, we knew how to do it. So, and that was, that was most applicable. I think it's only applicable to money, if I'm honest. I think Bitcoin is Bitcoin. I think if you try and generalize, I think it's, I hesitate to say, foolish, but I think it leads you down the shitcoin route if you try and generalize and you go into

blockchains and all this. We've been there before, you know, in the past. Consultancies will do it in order to try and make money out of it. Well, I used to work. We'll get the pushback from James afterwards. Yeah. It's okay. Keep going.

So, so yeah, I mean, you know, I know what consultants you're like. They will try and, you know, make things their own. And, you know, they have blockchains for supply chains and stuff. But it's rubbish. It's just a database. You know, it's not Bitcoin. It's totally different. It's just a sort of marketing attack, really.

It's my opinion anyway. No, no, I know. I completely, I completely. And I would say that really what Bitcoin does, it gives you truth, because you've got the ledger, and the ledger is obviously linked to time. Well, I don't know if it's obvious,

but anyway, because you put energy into the system and the difficulty adjustment, adjust the energy to give you 10-minute blocks, It's a time chain, you know. And that time chain gives you truth because you can't go back and change stuff that's happened in the past. So, sure, you can put money in transactions on it. You can put other stuff on it as well. And obviously people have tried that over the years.

And probably the first one that was the first, you know, alt-coin, if you want to call it, the first attempt to use similar technology for another purpose that I remember was name coin. And that made a lot sense because the domain name system is highly centralized. and it's a real problem. You know, so if you can decentralise that, it's like an obvious thing to do. But that just failed, you know, simple as that. People thought it might work, but they just failed.

And obviously now you've got 40,000 other things which are, you know, I don't even want to talk about them. You know, I think it's really important to the two things that are scarce in your life are Bitcoin and time, you know. And so you have to focus on what's important and Bitcoin's important. The other stuff will just waste your time. I want to hear James thought. Yeah.

I mean, I think that maybe I haven't described it what I'm talking about, as well as Jason Larry, probably. I mean, I don't know if you've read his paper or seen him talk about it, Peter, but, you know, he is not at all talking about any forms of other blockchains or shitcoins. No, he's not. He's saying Bitcoin is unique. What he's saying is, is that our categorization of it, money. He describes an allegory. He says that the guy, the guy who invented gunpowder was a doctor,

a medical doctor, and he called it medicine because he was a doctor and that's what he was trying to create. He created gunpowder and for 200 years, people called his invention medicine until somebody decided that it actually had other properties, possibly more useful even than medicine, which was why it was created and so it became known as gunpowder. Okay. Just we call it money. This is Jason Harris point. It's not saying that we create something else.

He's saying that Bitcoin is the only thing. Proof of work is the only thing. But what he's saying is that we call it money because the inventor called it money. And that actually that might be a limiting idea that in fact it's more than money. That's the point he's making. Not that we need loads of other blockchain. and shit coins. Not at all. No, he's completely, that's not the point.

And I wanted to make that clear. I'm definitely not in any way going to be interested in any other coins, any other blockchains, or anything, frankly, in proof of stake. But did you notice how it triggered Ben to talk about Ethereum and stuff? It's that mindset.

It's taking down that route. But I thought Ben's point was about the move away from proof of work, making it even more of a shit coin. I'm sorry, that's why. Yeah, but why are we spending time on it, you know. We know proof of state's rubbish. I think

so again, what I'm curious about here is so you get down the conversation of what else outside of because money is very

all encapsulating and I think people don't realize like how much of money has been replaced by fiat assets. Just in terms of like because our money is so broken, so many other things have taken the place of money for a lot of the properties that it used to offer. And so maybe I'm misinterpreting it here.

But what I'm hearing is different iterations of we're going to get a return back to all of these different uses of money or for lack of a better term like to get a little bit more descriptive. How we allocate the fruits of our labor all encapsulating, it's going to kind of revert back to one as opposed to, hey, you know, your money isn't holding its value. so you need to put it into this asset and this as this asset and this asset and this asset. I think the end game here is that money takes on all of the properties that it used to, and it ruins a lot of the, how do you say it, fiatization of the globe that we've experienced so far. So like, you know, to clarify here, I don't think that we get. real world assets on the Bitcoin blockchain, or at least, no, I think we do, but I think that the value in that is not necessarily there, because it's very difficult to tie a real world asset to a digital medium like Bitcoin in a way that makes sense, like using a blockchain, right?

because so if you can if you can so if you try to tie a real world asset to a blockchain then you have to make room for the fact that you could have bad inputs and so if you have a bad input you then have two two possibilities one is that your blockchain is immutable and that that bad information is then forever in the blockchain in which case the blockchain becomes useless. Or you have the possibility that you can amend the blockchain to to factor in the incorrect data and correct it. At which point, why are you using a blockchain?

And so this is the like this is the catch 22. Like you can't put real world assets, physical assets on a blockchain. And I think that's kind of what maybe Peter, what you were getting at. Is that what you were alluding to? Yeah, I mean, that's one thing. Certainly, that was something I think we went through in 2017, 2018, where people were saying we're going to put housing records on the blockchain and stuff. I mean, all of these things have been around, you know, and been discarded, essentially.

But they come back now and again, you know, as you've seen, you get cycles of this stuff, but hopefully decaying cycles. Yeah, so James, was there, when you're, When you're talking about things external to money, did you have an idea? So I think to describe what I mean, so what you were just describing, money goes back to being what it used to be.

And I think that's, if I just build on that, so what you were just saying about maybe what we're saying is that money goes back to filling the gaps, doing the things that it used to do, except that the world that we live in today has got this huge, huge load of stuff

that didn't used to exist at all. So the entirety of cyberspace. So everything that we do online, and that is a growing share and we'll continue to grow into the future. So if money just goes back to doing what it used to do, how does it interface with that entire cyberspace? And I think this is the point, is actually...

Sorry? That's just software, though. Money's value... Yeah, yeah, but... You know, you have... Bitcoin is value communication. But it's not going back. It's not going back to what it used to do.

It's doing that, but it's also capable of performing the role in cyberspace to lock everything, whether that's... And that's why I mentioned Adam back in my... Why I'm feeling bullish, because actually it goes back to his ideas of hash-cash. Basically, it allows you to implement security in pretty much... Using Bitcoin, but pretty much everything, because you can tie almost everything to real world consequences. If you want to see, I would say, if you want to generalize Bitcoin to a useful technology, look at public key cryptography. That is underutilized at the moment.

It's been around since the 70s. It's in Bitcoin. Obviously, it's a key part of Bitcoin, but there's lots of other places that can be used. It's really important for sovereign individuals. Really important. And it's not Bitcoin as such. But if you're in Bitcoin, you probably know what public key cryptography is. And there's just so much work that needs to be done in that space, I would say.

So I think to kind of round out the again, like there's obviously back and forth here, but again, I think linking, linking value to assets real or digital outside of, you know, a native like unit of account that's set on the Bitcoin blockchain is, I would say inherently like impossible. But that said, I will say that to James's point, the general idea that all of the uses of what Bitcoin can do down the road may not have been explored. And what that looks like, I have no idea. I don't think it includes linking external values. I think that, yeah, and I think that. It's about its role in cyberspace specifically. It's about its role in cyberspace specifically, not the real world. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that it will be interesting to see how it progresses. I don't think that we live in a world where like, oh, this digital asset is somehow externally linked to the Bitcoin blockchain and then like that represents this other thing outside of it. I don't think you're going to get that because that breaks down over time. And people may believe it for a certain. I'm almost certain that we'll get a point where it's like.

like, oh, this stock is linked to the Bitcoin blockchain, and then, oh, shit, it's broken. So, like, I think we'll get a lot of that. Stable coins, for example. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're all right until they're not. Yeah, yeah. Stable coins are fiat with additional counterparty risk on top of the fact that, you know, you don't know how much is going to debase, but then also you don't even know that the dollars are actually there.

So you're going to get a lot of those layers of nobody knows what the fuck is going on, but somehow it's linked to Bitcoin. So it's secure. Oh, wait, it's not. But nonetheless, I do think that much like it harkens back to the old conversations about the internet. Oh, what can I do on the internet? Well, you can do this one thing. Well, that's stupid.

I can do this one thing with this other thing that already exists. and then people don't realize the implications. So I think there's something to be said there, but I do think at a core level, we're not going to be able to link all the world's value to the Bitcoin blockchain, but in a way it kind of already inherently is because that's what money represents.

And the more people gravitate towards the best, most sound money, the more Bitcoin will just represent all of the economy. so we'll see where it goes. You're right. When you say gravitate, you're right, of course. You know, it's a black hole for money because as it becomes larger, it attracts different markets. You know, at the moment, maybe it's not large enough to support, I don't know,

oil trading, but, you know, when it 10x is again. So then it will be large enough to support that market. And so it carries on. That's the black hole, isn't it? That's the shit hits the fan when it's large enough to support the oil market. but nonetheless we're going to wrap that topic here because I recognize it's probably it's like midnight for you guys and I know that I got to get Simon in with his topic before before he fades into oblivion in the blackness of night in the UK we were on a call just a random call the other day I can't remember even why we jumped on a bridge to Bitcoin called it was something about

something really minor and why came off the call and realize we've been on the school for three hours. I don't know if you realize that, guys. I can't even remember. It's this tiny thing we wanted to chat about within our bridge to Bitcoin circle. And, yeah, it came off when. This is what Bitcoin does. Anyway, sorry.

There was so much to talk about. Yeah, I just dragged it out even longer, Ben. Sorry. That's the way it is. That's how it goes. So I'm all segue here. I'm going to queue up Simon and get his topic. And I don't know.

I don't really need to preamble too much. So, Simon, why are you bullish? Well, this hopefully brings it back to where we started bookends it back from the beginning with the meetups. But specifically the UK meetups. I mean, that's the bullish topic for me is how the meetup scene in the UK has just gone pretty much exponential in the last, in this year. So we've gone from back in February of start this year.

There were seven meetups in the UK that I was able to sort of find. So when I started Bitcoin Events.U.K., the website and wanted to list all of the meetups that were around the country. I could count seven. And there was one in Birmingham, the Brum Bitcoin beer. meetup there was the Essex meetup and Bitcoinology down in London. So there was, there was, you know, and a few others. So there was seven at the start of the year. But then through, I went on a podcast, I forget when that was sort of April, May sort of time, I went on the Bit by Bit by Bit podcast and talked a lot about meetups then. And I got a few people that

contacted me afterwards that wanted to start meetups in their own area. There was a guy, Mike D, he started the Sheffield meetup and then Adam. He started the Leeds meetup afterwards. There was a guy that was driving, I think I mentioned earlier, a guy called Tom that was coming to our meetup in the North Hans Bitcoin Network. He was driving over from Leicester, probably like a 45 minute, 50 minute drive to us. So we suggested to him, you know, don't stop coming to us, but start one up in in, in, in, in Lester as well. So he, he started his Lester meetup over there.

And we've gone from seven meetups to 26 meetups now. So it's been so like if we, and there are maps, I haven't got a map of what it was like back in February. But it's, you know, it's a similar massive adoption. And I actually worked it out earlier. that's a 270% increase in meetups. So it's been a huge year that I think we'll look back at this year and say for the UK, this has been massive growth. I mean, if we do that 270% again next year, it would be like 96 meetups or something,

which will be crazy. The rest of my beard will go white then. It's like that would, there'll be. There'll be so much going on. So it's huge, it's huge for the UK because we really were so far behind. But what it, what it means is that all these networks that now, all these connections, we're like every meetup is like a node on the network, you know, and we can form these connections between each, each.

We've got a telegram group with all the admins, all like the organizers from all the meetups. So as a meetup groups grow and, you know, and we start doing more and more talks. Because one of the things about the meetups now, especially in a bear market, is what you get in a bare market meetup are just Bitcoiners. You get like real hardcore Bitcoin maximalists, you know. You're getting guys that have been in for a long time.

And not always a long time, But you're getting you guys that are, they're not, they're not sort of curious about Bitcoin. They've been, they've been on Bitcoin Twitter for a while. And they're, they know what they're talking about pretty much. So it's a really good time to build those foundations. Oh, did he freeze? I think he froze. He's deep in thought.

Maybe he's really, really thinking about what he's going to say now. There you are. I disappeared and I'm back again. I got you. My crappy incanetect. internet condition um so yeah so i don't know where i'll last you but um it's um it's it's it's grown so so fast it's been really good um and i think there's more growth there's more growth to go there's more growth in in each meetup now

growing in size and the the types of things that we do within the meetups um and some of them some of the meetups. I mean, a lot of them are basically just a bunch of guys meeting up in the pub for a drink, you know, and that's something I wanted to emphasize to people that if you're thinking about starting a meetup, it doesn't need to be,

I think a lot of people get stuck at sort of, I've got to organize, I've got to make a presentation and I've got to do an educational talk to people because there's going to be a lot of, people that want to learn about Bitcoin, especially at the moment, bottom of a bear market, that's not necessarily what you get. You're getting people that you're just getting Bitcoin. It's like I said.

So, you know, start small. It's easy. All you basically need is start a telegram group, start a Twitter account for the meetup, use the Twitter account to attract the Bitcoiners to your telegram group. And then once you've collected that bunch of Bitcoiners into that telegram group, organize a meetup in the pub. You're just basically organizing a meetup with a bunch of mates, you know. And as we said before, you know, there's not a lack of things to talk about.

You're going to be there for hours talking about Bitcoin. and three hours are going to be gone before you've realized it. And from that, you can, you can, you know, plot world domination. You know, this is where revolution start, you know, is in pubs, in bars. This is how the American Revolution started, you know. A bunch of guys sitting around in a pub plotting revolution. This is how it starts. Simon, can you reiterate those numbers?

you said seven meetups and what was the timeline and then so we've gone from yeah so from around about february february to april so there wasn't much growth really in that time so i started getting interested in studying in starting a meet at myself around around that time and then when the miami conference i remember again that was in april i think wasn't it so um that was the time when i really thought, right, we've got to start growing the UK scene here. And I started Bitcoin events. And we've got 26 meetups now around the UK. I mean, I mean, I can I could list them off.

But there's there is a huge, there's a huge amount. We've got them. We've got Glasgow. We've got Newcastle. Yeah, there's Essex and Leicester and Northans and Bakshyubikers and Surrey Bikournors and Surrey Bitcoin. There is, there's, there's, there's just a ton. There's, there's the guys, a coin coiner guys,

has started one in the Isle of Man. Obviously there's a huge amount of adoption in the Isle of Man. So this, and I think a lot of people don't realize, you know, what the growth that we've had in, in the UK, this past, less than a year, really. So this is the crazy thing to me. It's the midst of a bear market and you've had that kind of growth in terms of meetups in the midst of this. So to me that says that there's a lot of like stealth bitcoinsers out there that we don't realize or just in our local communities.

And that's why I think it's so important to again, like reach out and say like, hey, be the person in the crowd to stand up and say, I am Spartacus. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you start having heads pop up saying, hey, exactly. Me too, me too. Yeah. It's important. Yeah, no, for sure. Like we touched on earlier, there is, and it goes so hand in hand with the merchant

adoption, the meetups that, and through going door to door almost with our merchant adoption, and we have found Bitcoiners, like we said earlier, that really didn't know what was going on, that there was actually a community out there. They hadn't discovered the Bitcoin community because maybe they're not on Twitter. So they've joined the meetups, and it's making those connections.

But that's the other thing to really talk about is that the merchant adoption goes so hand-in-hand with the meet-ups. that the leverage that that gives you when you're going to speak to different merchants, when you've got a meetup group, whether it's 12 guys or whether it's 30 guys, if you've got that that meetup group that you can go to your local pub and say, look, if you guys accept Bitcoin, we'll have a meetup here every week. And that gives you a lot of leverage to, you know, they're going to get that extra

business which they weren't going to get otherwise. And if you've got a local butcher that it starts accepting Bitcoin, you can, within your telegram group, you can say, right, guys, we've got this butcher. He's accepting Bitcoin now. Let's all, everyone, just buy, let's buy our meat from this guy. And instead of, like in years past where they did accept Bitcoin and like we said with the maps and everything, where you've got these legacy people on that were accepted. accepting Bitcoin and maybe they've changed hands and there was no real incentive for them to

carry on accepting Bitcoin because nobody came in like the bookshop. Nobody came in to to accept to pay with Bitcoin. So he kind of forgot about it. But if you've got a meetup group, like with a bookshop, I go to the bookshop and I take my kids and say let's we, you know, let's buy some books and send my friends there. Some of the other guys from the meetup group go to the bookshop and we buy the odd book and it keeps a little trickle of sats coming in through his door and if the bookshop ever closes or changes hands or whatever then um then maybe you know the next donor will say well i don't want to use this extra i don't want to lose the extra revenue that this was bringing me i i've got to carry on accepting bitcoin now because i'm

I'm chopping off a certain percentage of my income if I take that Bitcoin accepted his sticker out of the window. So it will keep it going. So it's it the merchant adoption Bitcoin meetups are really very solidly together as two two things that have to grow together. And by growing them together, we really, we really, you know, it becomes greater than the sum of its parts. It becomes a hugely powerful thing. This is honestly, you chatting has inspired me to try and focus more local because I think a lot of people, they try to go big, right? They try to go, let's get the globe. And they totally forget their neighbors.

They totally forget that there might be a guy down the street that is all in on this and is just so aligned with your values and what you would love to be accomplished with Bitcoin. And you're just, you're oblivious to them. And you're walking past each other every single day on the street. You have no idea. And I think it's important to have those people that say like, hey, to be the beacon in the local community for people to gravitate towards because this is again that again Peter you you pointed out that that term gravitating towards it's that's that's that's

what it is and and to be that person anybody that's watching that watching this right now you can be that person in your local community where where the people that are are on your wavelength or starting to align with it, gravitate towards you because they see the signal through the noise. And they say, hey, I feel like I need more of this or I need to contribute to this or learn from this. They will come to it if they see value. And eventually, it's my belief that that will more or less be everyone. And at that point, it's no longer necessary because everybody gets it. But to be that early beacon, to be that early signal in your community, in your local community, that can, I mean, that's what really makes the difference.

You can, you can have these people that are, you can have, again, like, you can have podcasts like this. But like, when, when you're in the community chatting with people, talking about your day-to-day life with your neighbor and saying, hey, here's, here's the problems I'm running into and I think this solves some of them through this. This is where you're going to get the most kind of synergy with, again, somebody in your local community that says, hey, I mean, I live in the same area as you. Of course, I'm going to probably experience the same life hurdles that I need to get over. And I see what you're presenting me.

And, you know, that kind of lines up. that makes sense to me. So work within your local communities because that's where you're most likely to encounter people that, again, grab a date towards a signal. Yeah, yeah.

It's where the libertarian kind of philosophy of Bitcoin kind of comes into it, where it's, you know, it's that localization. Yes. Really looking after your local community, and there's no better way to look after your community than to introduce it to Bitcoin and get that.

circular economy going. And it's, it's, it's like, it's like the telephone as well. You know, when the telephone first started and you've got only a few people that have telephones, there's not that many different connections you can make. But when everyone's got a phone, everybody can call everybody and check everyone's okay. And now, you know, with Bitcoin, we can make those connections. And once you've got that community, you can make those connections with the community.

And most people can kind of operate within their own community if they, you know, you don't need to, it doesn't matter about the rest of the world, you know, within a 10, 15 mile radius of your house as long as everybody was accepting Bitcoin, you'd be fine, you'd be on a Bitcoin standards. So if you can just orange pill your community, that's all you need to do as an individual. And then if we all did that, we're there. Yeah, it's incredible. This is a fun question in the comments here.

Any obsec tips for attending starting a meetup? I mean, like, if you're in case, let's let's let's let's put this in the context of like online obsec is different from like local meetup obsec. So if if there's if there's a spook that. has decided to infiltrate your local community Bitcoin meetup, then I mean, maybe that guy deserves the few callers that he gets. You don't need to give you name though, do you? Yeah, like, you can just show up and you don't have to say a lot and you can forge individual

one-on-one relationships. Like, I think we've got to balance it out, right? The goal here is is allowing people to to freely transact between each other on a peer to peer basis and just live their lives and allow money to take on the form of simply doing something that you're good at,

storing your value reliably, and then being able to transact with your peers. When you get to the crux of it, that's what it is. And so, I mean, if you, you get into a realm where you're too paranoid to show up in a group of people and and have a conversation. I'll tell you, a great example of what of that was when we were at the Edinburgh conference, on this Saturday night, we were in the brew dog bar and Adam Back was in there.

And he was just standing there chatting with everybody. Like, I mean, incredible. This is like one of the OG. obviously of Bitcoin and he was in there talking to everybody and I was watching him and he was standing by the door and he was saying goodbye to people and he had a little backpack on him and he just

wandered off into the night by himself back to his Airbnb or whatever and I was thinking Adam back is just wandering off you know if I'm worried about my object yeah exactly Adam back is on the white paper right and he just wandered off by himself into the night

everyone in this bar has watched him disappear. I mean, he doesn't get a shit. So why should I? I'm so glad you brought this one up, Ben, because I was going to highlight it. As soon as it popped up, I was just like, we got to discuss this.

Because I think there's this thing in Bitcoin about this $5 wrench attack that just doesn't happen. And I think that's what this question is alluding to. And I think we statistically, we can count on one hand the number of $5 wrench. I think there have been three, maybe, three physical attacks on Bitcoiners in all the time,

the Bitcoin has existed. And I think, I'm not sure why we have this sort of fear of $5 entreat tax. But yeah, I think we've got to balance it out. So, yeah, who was that? We put it out. I can't remember who you put the question out. But yeah, get out there.

Get out there. Meet fellow bitcoinsers because it's, like I said earlier, it's good for the soul. The amount of collaboration you're going to do, it's going to blow your mind. When you meet other bitcoins, like we said earlier, you can have conversations. you're going to cut through the shit, you're going to get straight to the chase, and you're going to make great friends and do fantastic business. Look what's happened to myself, Pete, James and Simon. You know, we've started up these businesses out of nothing.

We've just gone, we've met, and within minutes, we're just like, oh, that's a really good idea. How do we do that? Because we're in that space at the moment in Bitcoin, where it's still really early. So everyone here are early adopters, really. And we're so we're doers. So we're people who want to get stuff done. We want movement. We want to see progress.

So go and meet other Bitcoiners because you'll be, you will be inspired, as Pete said earlier, you'll be inspired by meeting other Bitcoiners. And who knows what might come out of that. So please don't be scared. The upside is far greater than the downside. We're going to a Bitcoin meetup. If you're really worried, you know, just wear a green gimpsuit, you know, as exemplified by that famous Austrian-German.

Gigi. You're probably more likely to come a cropper just because of your green gimp suit, frankly, then you're probably more like to get a tap. I'd also say, with security, you really have to consider, it's a bit like risk, isn't it? There's perceived risk and natural risk. And, you know, it's not really about picking up security tips, I have to say. I don't think anyway.

It's more about being realistic about your security situation. So if you are serious about it, write down your threat model. You know, what are your threats? And be realistic about how big they are, how small they are, and which ones you can mitigate and which ones not. And just, yeah, just balance it out a bit. Yeah. I'm going to point out that Simon, you called the bottom of the bear market there.

It sort of slipped everyone by. You actually said, yeah, we're at the bottom of the bear market. Yeah, I'm calling. So you heard it here first from Simon. I'm going to say. Okay, so we're on the topic about Adam back. And I've got to give Adam once again a shout out because you think like, oh, Adam back was mentioned in the white paper and his work directly contributed to the creation of Bitcoin.

And you think like, you know, if you're lucky enough to be at an event, where he's in attendance. You think, oh, geez, like, do I even bother going up to this guy and talking to him? Is he going to have time for me? I saw him at Bitcoin 2019. And this was probably at a point where, I mean, he had no idea who the fuck I was, obviously, like, who would? and I walked up to him and I said, hey man, I just,

you don't want it to say thank you for your work and your contribution to, you know, what ended up being Bitcoin. And I don't even know if I really had any good questions for him. I just, I was like, I would love to engage in a conversation with Adam Beck.

And so I walked up to him. He's just by himself. He's looking at like a mural on the wall. And, you know, in the midst of a Bitcoin bear market. And I go up to him. when I start chatting.

And I had just been reading a book on, on social cues, on, uh, uh, again, like kind of, I,

I, I don't really know the, the, the name for the topic, but like, interpreting different social cues trying to, like social engineering, stuff like that.

And, and part of it was interpreting, like how, if you're talking to somebody, like what, what, what their, reactions and how they're reacting to your conversation.

And they were talking about how like, you know, if you're talking to somebody, if they're trying to exit a conversation or they're like, hey, I've probably got other shit to do, you'll see them angle their feet kind of away from the conversation, right? You'll see one toe be pointing out and their body will be their body language. They'll be open as a way to exit or potentially invite other people into the conversation, but to leave. And whereas if they're engaged, then their body language will be direct towards you,

feet facing towards you. And this was Adam back to, you know, he owed me zero time. He owed me zero engagement. He owed me absolutely nothing. He literally built the foundation for what would become Bitcoin. And I'm some idiot coming up asking,

I'm sure what were absolutely assonine questions and he literally he was enjoying whatever he was looking at and doing and he just turned and the focal point was on me and not only that

but he had no inclination to leave he sat there and I should he sat there and he chatted with me for half an hour and people just kind of meandered up and just listened and just joined in the car and all of a sudden there was just a group of people having a conversation and and he just he was more than content to just have a

conversation with some person who he had no idea who they were what they were doing he just knew that they were interested in bitcoin and he just sat there and he just chatted and uh i think that's one of those moments that i'm going to be forever grateful for um I've met him and chatted with him since, but it was just one of those weird instances where I'm like, especially in the context of reading that the book that I was reading at the time, I was like, man, he doesn't give a fuck to leave.

He's just super happy just having a conversation. And it was, it was, you know, I kept that here and it was important to me. Yeah. And I think, I think a lot of Bitcoiners would do well to lead by that example and engage with people that want to have those conversations because they're even even if it's not on the scale of chatting with the guy that was cited in the Bitcoin white paper it's still equally important to whoever you may be chatting with and I think we can all glean that from Adams example

And on that night, I'm going to give a shout out to the organizers of the Bitcoin Collective at Edinburgh, the Bitcoin Conference in Edinburgh and all the speakers. Because not only Adam, but all the speakers was so approachable. So well done to the guys for making such a great homely conference where everyone had access to everyone. I've never been to a conference where there's been virtually a non-existent hierarchy. Everyone was just chatting to each other. like we say Adam was in and out Fosse was there you know

you can chat to anyone it was beautiful and that sort of symbolised to me the sort of flat hierarchy in collaborative nature of Bitcoin but yeah one yeah the night that we arrived when me and my wife went

we got there on the Thursday night and we put our bags in the Airbnb and James said oh come and meet us in that the standing order wasn't it the pub that we went to yeah and and we rocked up there thinking it was just going to be James and we were going to sit down and have some food and I walked into the pub and Peter McCormack came over and said oh mate how's it going because we met Peter quite a few times an hour from the from the football matches and then

I'm looking around I'm thinking holy shit um samson Mao is there and Greg Foss and Larry LaPard and Natalie Brunel and I was like oh my god and and we were just in the pub drinking and there's all these all the speakers were just all around us and and um we could just chat to them and it was there's no VIP area. It was really, it was just cool. We were just in amongst the, the podcasting,

um, superstars, you know, it's, it's, it's weird because you gradually start to realize that every person is just, yeah,

some other person, right? Like they're just. Yeah. And, and the only reason that anybody assigns notoriety to people. And I, and this is outside of like if you're building amazing stuff,

that's, that's, totally different ballgame because I don't build shit. I see cool shit and I test it out and then I film myself doing it after I screwed up a bunch of times. And like a lot of people, they'll be like, oh, let's talk about cool shit or let's, whatever it may be. But I think a lot of these people that you realize, you know, that we get into this mindset

of, oh, it's really cool that this person is chatting. with us or it was taking time. The reality of is it is that, you know, they had a certain set of interests. They did whatever they did. They came into Bitcoin. It naturally grabbed their attention. And they just happened to have their attention grabbed sooner than you. And so or they happened to have their attention grabbed.

And they then went on to do something that you happen to appreciate. But like at the end of the day, it's all just. people that have an inclination to gravitate towards a tool that can kind of level the playing field for humanity. And I think that's a pretty mutual thing across the globe. And eventually what's going to happen is you're going to get to a point where that's a rather unremarkable thing, which in one way will be a little sad. but in another way what it's going to do for humanity as a whole is going to be incredible

and yeah you'll be able to look back and you know they'll be the notable people there'll be the mystery that is Satoshi there'll be Hal there'll be people like Adam Back there'll be people that built incredible things for people to use but at the end of the day

the reality will be that it just took people different amounts of time to realize that this tool results in the most prosperous, flourishing environment for humanity. And that's the path that we're all going down eventually, even the people that hate Bitcoin right now. Some of them may never come around to it. It may just be outside of their life cycle.

It may just be that they're too entrenched in their values that were bestowed upon them from the previous generation, from their parents, whatever it may be. But at the end of the day, like, we're all born as a blank slate. And our current beliefs and values are a culmination of how we were raised and the situation in which we're raised. And so you can't really necessarily fault people for that. And I think it's in our best interest to kind of present our best argument and allow people to gravitate towards whatever makes the most sense. And in the end, I think that's Bitcoin. I hope it's Bitcoin. And I hope that I'm right and that it results in a society that's more, again, more of a level playing field for everyone.

Absolutely. Agreed. I think this is a good place around it. I don't know what else to, yeah, but. I don't know, for some reason, I mean, obviously you're talking about sovereign individuals and some reason it makes me think of Julian Assange because he's a bit coiner. Yeah. And I just think we need to remember that in his situation, you know, periodically.

Yeah. It's important. I agree. I did get to meet some of the family members in Miami a year and a half ago. And that was, again, I can't even imagine. I hope that Bitcoin fixes this. I fear that it will fix it, I fear that it will fix it, but not soon enough for some of the repercussions of our kind of fiat denom. dominated lives to kind of take their toll on the current generation.

But I'm hopeful. And I think there's a lot to be hopeful for in the future. And I, you know, the sooner we can get there, the better. I think that the way that we get there sooner is what we've been talking about, local. People, people, a lot of people are thinking too big picture. where can you as an individual have the most impact where can you today get people and it doesn't matter how many people you're not you're not trying to rack up numbers you just you want to make that connection you want to find that person that's most in tune with your wavelength and say hey

this could be helpful for you maybe even just you and i can form a relationship where you you're creating something I value, I can compensate that with you in something that actually accurately reflects the value given and start there. That's all you need to do. Solid. Grassroot stuff. Yeah. I completely agree, Ben. You said the sooner we can get there, the better. And you also said earlier, be that person in the community. So for me, the famous Gandhi quote, so epitomizes that be the change you want to see in the world. And as Bitcoiners, we want to to see Bitcoin be successful. So, yeah, do that.

Be the change output. It's the UTXO. Yeah. Be the UTXO you want to see in the world. I think that's fantastic. I'm going to round it out here, guys. I think this is a great place to happen. So I'm going to do a quick round.

Again, we'll keep it brief, like a minute, or so each. But just anything that you want. That's not possible, Ben. Yeah, I know. A few hours later. I will ask you just like any, like a quick final thought. And if you have it, I'll challenge you to offer up a recommendation of really anything

that's helped you along your Bitcoin journey. It could be an app, a podcast, just something. to explore a line of thought, really, really anything like a book, a video, it doesn't matter. Just something that you found useful in your Bitcoin journey that you think could benefit some people. So again, I'll all rounded out here. I will say the theme of today seems to be reach people that you can reach, right? cast the net where you're going to catch the most fit. And so start local.

If you have a bigger reach, then go for it. If you don't start local, that's where the differences are made. And so find those people that you can connect with that maybe share your values, that maybe are in tune with your values and don't even realize that Bitcoin is a solution to their woes. And start there. in terms of recommendations I think this was my recommendation a couple of weeks ago but I'm going to reiterate it

go local go to your meetup go to your local meetup search go on Google whatever your city is followed by Bitcoin if nothing comes up make it make it yourself and it will grow

I think Simon again the numbers that you were quoting you went from seven meetups in the UK to in the high 20s that's incredible in a in a year in a bear market if that can help in a bear market imagine what can be how you know happen in the midst of a bull and i know that some of those people are transient but imagine the the the the seas that can be sewn there and the growth because it's not it's not like the the the peak number of people, it's the moving averages, right, that are important. And so I, yeah.

Yeah, it's a strong foundation that we're making now in this, this period. Yeah. And it's the strongest I've ever seen, to be honest. I think it was there. I think it was such fertile ground. It just somebody needed to get it. And I'm not saying I did it all, but it was, it had to, it had to be, people needed to just start making the connections.

because and it just all started to slot together. Those people were already there just waiting to be connected. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. Okay, so let's go down the line really quick. I'm going to go to Chris first. Cool. Any quick final thought, recommendations?

Go ahead. Quick final thoughts. A super huge thank you for having some. Ben, fantastic to have this platform to let everyone know what we do. And just to rip on Bitcoin. and just chat Bitcoin for hours. It's fantastic. So thank you very much.

Real privilege. So thank you for having us on. Recommendations. So I'm going to, my recommendation, I'm going to harp back to what I just said. The Gandhi quote, be the change you want to see in the world. Follow that quote.

For me, the cornerstone at this moment in time for Bitcoin success is merchant adoption. This is a monetary revolution. at the moment and the repercussions of that are huge as we were discussing earlier with some disagreement as to what those repercussions might be but let's not go back there but yeah the repercussions are huge um i think i think merchant adoption is a cornerstone for this so what my recommendation is a call to action um is to say when you next go to the shops and apologies for those who've

heard me say this before no uh well i won't apologize um when you next go to the shops say these four simple words do you accept bitcoin now the likelihood is i'll go no and you just carry on with your day you pay with your fiat shit coin and you carry on you don't have to do anything else you might get a weird look you just carry on you just get your fiat card ready but by asking that question you sowing a seed at ground root level. And if we all do that as Bitcoin, every time we go to the shops, sooner or later, people go, what is this Bitcoin? I need to look at this.

Or those shop owners just go, hmm, maybe I should start accepting this Bitcoin. And maybe one day, some, a shop owner or an employee would go, huh, how do we do that? That's your door in. Wallet Satoshi, if it's a one-man band. Or if you're in the UK and it's a bigger business, contact us and we'll speak to them about it. Ask those four words. It's a really, for me, it's a really powerful, slow orange pill. As I said earlier, much more powerful than trying to orange pill individuals at a personal individual level.

This is our sort of Trojan horse for Bitcoin success. And it opens conversations. and as I said earlier, creates collaborations. Who knows where those conversations might go? I'm loving my new tagline, normalized, don't evangelize Bitcoin. And to just sort of highlight that new tagline, I'm going to talk about, and James and so you'll be familiar with this little story. We've met an internet OG when we first met.

And I didn't realize, but when the internet first came about, the newbies or the OGs of the internet had meetups, just like Bitcoiners. They all used to meet up on online forums and to talk about the internet and how they can make it better. And they were called interneters. It's that interesting. We're Bitcoiners and we meet up to talk about Bitcoin. No one talks about, no one calls anyone interneters anymore. We're just users of the internet.

It's a phrase that we don't use. So hopefully one day, Bitcoiners won't exist because we'll all just be using Bitcoin. Normalize, don't evangelize, is what I'm saying. So spend your Bitcoin. Go ask for other. And if they say, yes, great, spend your Bitcoin.

Remember the title of the white paper, it's a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. So use it. don't spend the ultimate shit coin USD or Great British Pound If you have the option Of paying in Bitcoin or USD or Great British Pound

If you choose your Fiat currency In my mind, you're shitcoining So spend the Bitcoin Otherwise you're just Propagating the use of a shit coin Let's encourage the use of Bitcoin and to loop it back, if you have a bolt card, you use a bolt card. If you don't have a bolt card, go get a bolt card.

It's great. It's now, thanks to Pete, it's now open source. Anyone can have a bulk card. It's self-sovereign, self-custodial. And if you want to be really flash, I'm going to loop this back to, if it was it, it was Chair Force Hoddle. Chair Force Hoddle was asking about laserized cards.

So what we've done just to finish off, we have taken Pete's open source bulk card and we've created laser eyes cards so I'm going to show you this is point of sale device and we'll come a little bit closer so this is this is a blank bulk card that you can buy from us so it's blank you can do what you like with it

you can link it to your node link it to your wallet Pete will explain more if you want if we want to talk for another two hours about Bitcoin and BoltCards BoltCard.org Go to boltcard.org Go to boltcard.org. And when you pay, this is what happens. You get laser eyes when you pay.

We've got a number of different designs. We've got the honey badger. I'm not sure which one this is. Honey badger, a good honey badger. We've got the naughty honey badger with the red eye. Ben, I did send one out to you. We did see selfies as well. So you can get your own face printed on.

And we did that for the guys, for the speakers in Edinburgh. And then I did post, I have posted one out to you. I'm, I'm eagerly awaiting. Honestly, I've been checking the mail every day. I've been so pissed off because it's been delayed at every stage. And I mean, picking off emails. There was a new store here like two days ago. So I can see it's currently stuck in customs.

It arrived at something like 315 this morning at your local, local customs places. We got time. We got time. Like, I leave, I leave early Wednesday morning. but I think I think I got time. Honestly, the video of Jeff Booth seeing it was like, what better marketing are you going to get than Jeff Booth losing his shit over a laser?

I think, so yeah, to round up, yeah, go ask your local merchant if they accept Bitcoin, if they do, great, fantastic. If not, you've started them on, hopefully, an orange billing journey. Go get a bulk card, laser eyes, dot cards, if you want. You've already got people asking, can I get one with yellow on it? You're going to want the custom cards is going to be the... Contact us for custom cards. We can do them as well.

Jeff Booth assured me he's going self-sovereign with his bulk card, so that's great. Awesome, awesome. All right. So, Peter, I'm going to go to you. Final thought, recommendation. Go ahead. Sure. I like what Chris was saying about the internet and Bitcoin

because to me there's a lot of similarities. They're both protocols. The internet is obviously communication protocol and Bitcoin's a value communication protocol. So, you know, the adoption is going to be similar in some ways. It seems to be faster with Bitcoin. Anyway, in terms of interesting things to watch, I would say with laser eyes cards,

we only accept Bitcoin. This is James's idea, one of James's excellent ideas. We don't accept Bitcoin. We don't accept Fiat or any of that, whatever. Just Bitcoin. None of that shit cornery. Yeah, none of that stuff.

But obviously, to some extent, we've got to put paperwork in. So James is dealing with that situation, thankfully. And for me, it was super easy. Setting up the e-commerce store and, well, Rob did the e-commerce store, but setting up BTC pay server. Just super easy. you know, nothing like fiat stuff at all,

far far easier. But the most interesting thing is going to be when after, say, six months, we've been going about a month, but after, you know, a year or whatever, when all the forms have got in and we've done a whole cycle of tax and whatever, all that stuff, then I hope you don't mind me saying, James, but James is going to write about it and do a blog post.

I think that's going to be really important because, you know, I just want a bit more any business. I'm not interested in this fear stuff. I want a worldwide that I can sell worldwide, you know, simple Bitcoin, but obviously I've still got to do the paperwork. So so long as that, I think that'll be simpler than everyone imagined, hopefully. And I think James will get to the bottom of it for us. So that'll be a massive step forward.

And in terms of, you know, books and articles and stuff, price of tomorrow obviously is brilliant and block size wars, I would say. Cool. Those are awesome recommendations. again block size wars i i think is it's it's going to be a it's going to be a history book i think is going to be like years from now give it a few decades and it's going to be like kids read about the block size wars especially if you're around in that era i mean it's super interesting to hear the inside story isn't it oh yeah like reading it back because you know you get this

kind of superficial this is what i was reading on reddit at the time And then you go into, oh, these are the meetings that were happening. And you kind of realize, and for those that weren't around, it's absolutely necessary learning, like to understand what was at stake and what was happening in the background. And again, Jeff Booth, like, the beautiful part about his book is it's not about Bitcoin. It's that he recognized Bitcoin as a possible solution in one of the final chapters. And that has gone on to form the thesis of kind of where he is now. It's it's he recognized the the fragile state of where we are and how we got here.

Um, it's not a Bitcoin book. It's it's a reality book. And it's very valuable. And if anything is something that can orange pill a person, it's that. So yeah. Um, we'll jump to James. James. Final thought, recommendation, go ahead.

Yeah, actually, thanks, Peter. We hadn't mentioned that, actually, but both bridge to Bitcoin and laserized cars are Bitcoin-only businesses. I'm an accountant, so I have to do the money. We don't have bank accounts, and we never will have bank accounts. That's just how it's going to be. We have to work out a few things, but that's the way we're doing it. So that's the commitment, Bitcoin only.

So yeah, that's that. And I was just thinking about my recommendations. What's the best stuff that I've watched all read over the last two and a half years, three years, getting on three years now? It's a tricky one because it's a long journey and there's a lot of stuff in there. But I like the stuff that like Price of Tomorrow where, as you're saying, Ben, it wasn't Bitcoin barely featured until the end. but I sort of, I particularly like books that were written there for before 2008. So books and one that I'm only halfway through and another one that I'm only about a quarter of the way through. So I'm going to give those two up, which is a bit hard to say because I obviously haven't read them.

And they're not as inspiring as something like, I don't know, Gigi's 21 lessons or, you know, especially the one on time. I love that. I've read it and listened to it countless times. I just love it because it's feeling. physics and it's maths and it's weird and, you know, loads of great thoughts. But I like your Guido Halsman's The Ethics of Money Production, which was published in 2007, and is a deep history in money and the ethics of money, looking largely at the Christian tradition, but also touching on Islam too. And so when you find that there's a bishop Oresmi in the 12th century talking about good

money and bad money, it suddenly makes you think, maybe I'm not that weird, and this isn't all about technology. The core principles of what we're talking about is humanity, and it's deep history. That's the one, yeah. So I'd recommend that. And also, this is the one that I'm only part way through at the moment, and that's the sovereign individual. So it's hard for me to recommend it, but I can tell already that it's very, very interesting. And the fact that it's that it was written in, was it 1997? Yeah, that's, yeah.

Is remarkable. I mean, I feel that give them some allowances that, you know, I feel that their timing was, you know, not going to be exact. And they couldn't have anticipated how what they were predicting would actually go through a doom loop to start with

is what I feel we've been through of centralisation. but they could have anticipated that Bitcoin would be invented and that that would be the savior of this new doom loop. So there's a kind of little bit of not quite straightforward, but very, very interesting the things that they were thinking way back then. So yeah, it would be the scenes. You're on mute, Ben. You're having what we call a mayor today dropping.

Yeah, I'm not used to it. I'm like dropping ice water on my nuts. We're holding you. We're holding you up. Backstage yellow. I've been just icemis himself again. Nope. I dropped my phone on my keyboard and then drop my battery out of my camera.

Really winning tonight. Nonetheless, I was just saying that a sovereign individual, fantastic recommendation. It's funny. It's unfortunate that one of the first. things that they mention, they're talking in and around like, um, uh, this, this was written pre 9-11. So like there's no way they could have anticipated that. So like some of the stuff in and around that they couldn't have possibly seen coming, but there's like a couple misses there in and around like the trajectory of where that was going. Um, but nonetheless,

holy crap, the, how prescient that book was in and around the implications of a digital age, and they allude to a digital money, but I don't think that they just fully placed the importance of the digital money on the trajectory of what they were kind of anticipating. And so the digital money is what really puts the wheels in motion for what they're talking about in this book of the ability of an individual to truly be sovereign and the ability of somebody to be like that that flag theory of of the idea of nations instead of treating their constituents as their subjects treating them as their customers and having to effectively say hey come here because for your effort and the small taxes that we do charge you will receive the following

and that's the world that we're leading into. And that's very interesting. So I won't take up too much time here. I'm going to jump to Simon, and I'm going to grab your final thoughts and recommendations. Yeah, well, I'll be quick. And I think just to sort of say to people, the recommendation will be to think about what you can contribute to Bitcoin

without actually, I mean, if you don't code or, Don't do any of those kinds of things. That's not all that you, the only way that you can contribute to Bitcoin. There's so many ways. We talked about the BTC map project. There's all sorts of other smaller things as well. There was the Bitcoin for small businesses leaflet,

which we had a bit of involvement in making, which was an open source project. There it is. Chris has got it there. We kind of branded our own little version of it with bridge to Bitcoin on, but there's one for every country. We'd be talking to some guys the other day.

from New Zealand and suggested it to them. And it turned out there was no leaflet for New Zealand. So they're now going to create the New Zealand-specific version of that. But yeah, if there's a version for every country, I mean, if you go on there and there's not a version for your country, then create your country and print it out. You can download that leaflet from our website, bridge to bitcoin.com.

You can go in there and print it out and go and walk around your neighborhood and drop the leaflet into as many businesses as possible and speak to them. So that's something that anybody can do. So, you know, get out there. And if you are, and the one final thing is that if you are interested in merchant adoption, and we have, and this is actually really new. Just a few days ago, we started a Discord. server for people that uh because we've had a lot of people that have come to us that are interested in merchant adoption and just don't know maybe where to start so that so we've we've created this um kind of a hub I suppose for people to come and share ideas um we're going to do

some flow charts I think on on you know like if you're actually in the store and they say well we um the merchant wants to hold bitcoin or doesn't want to hold bitcoin you know there's lots of different decisions that you kind of got to make in which kind of option that you do you suggest to the merchant so there's all sorts of things that we can talk about in this in this discord server so if you go to our website there's a link section and there's links to the discord group and that's another way that you can contribute to bitcoin adoption we have a mention of volunteers It's not just ourselves who are bridge to Bitcoin. We have a host of, we have a whole load of volunteers across the UK

who do what we do at a local level, sort of looping back to what you were saying then about it being ground roots local. So yeah, big shout out to our volunteers. I won't name you all by name because some of you wanted to remain anonymous as best as you can. But yeah, big shout out to our volunteers. So, yeah, completely agree with you, Simon.

Thanks. Yeah. I love to hear it. again, I think the overarching theme of this pod has been local, local, local, do what you can, reach who you can. And sometimes that's your neighbor. Sometimes that's your community. Sometimes that's your city. Sometimes that's your country.

Sometimes that's the world. And that just depends. But all of it is incredibly meaningful. So don't just sit by and wait. Again, the Gonda quote, be the change you want to see in the world. Go do it now. And you can. BTCmap.org.

Go to your local meetups, meet people, find out what they do for a living. Ask if they'll accept Bitcoin. They're there. They probably already want to do it. And if you're not accepting Bitcoin, do it now. Sign yourself off for BTCMap.org. meet other people, create a community locally

amongst yourselves and grow from there because you as a community will have more reach than you as an individual. There you go. Gentlemen, I've got to say, thank you so much. You guys are, you came with the receipts. You showed up. You had so many great points to talk about.

This was a hell of a rip. We went for three hours. It is now 1 a.m. for you guys. It's only 7 p.m. for me. I would say that we didn't even do a deep dive on stuff. We sort of touched on things, didn't we? We skim the surface, but I feel like I was quite restrained. I really wanted to sort of get in.

Well, there's so much you can dive into, right? I know. I would love to go on for three more hours. I'll drink two pints of beer and I'm dying for a pee. Yeah, I know. I'm sure you're listening. You know, I'm going to, first is the bathroom, and then is a refill.

I brought just enough whiskey to make it through. I did not anticipate three hours. I brought a little bit extra. It's all gone now. But nonetheless, I really enjoyed this. I hope I'm going to see you guys in person at some point. I don't know. When you come over to the UK to meet your mate who's,

we'll come down for a meetup with you and him and bring some more people. I would love that. I think so next summer I am going to be going to to Italy for a while but on the way they're about like since I'm across it's funny as soon as you're traveling to the other side of the globe all of a sudden it makes a lot more sense to stop over in a place

that's halfway in between so so I may be making some effort and I think that at the end of the trip surfing Bitcoin is likely going to be happening near the end of August, at which point, if I'm already in France, maybe I make the trip up to England or on the way there. So we shall see. I don't know, but I do anticipate at some point being in the UK. So if I do, I know who to talk to.

And it'll be in a pub or a restaurant. Oh, I don't do it. Take Bitcoin. Yeah. I know Bitcoin. Bitcoin only holiday. You will not be spending any dirty fiat. Yeah, exactly.

So gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. All of your Twitter handles are linked down below, as well as all of the kind of the associated accounts that we've been talking to, BTCMab, all of that bridge to Bitcoin.

Everything, it's all down below. So everybody that's watching or that has been watching, go follow those Twitter accounts and then through proxy, you can kind of find everything that's been going on with these guys. Gentlemen, again,

I can't thank you enough for your time and for staying up late, even though you're across the pond, and you're all welcome back anytime. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Ben. Thanks very much. Cheers, Ben.

Cheers, thanks, guys. See ya. Everybody that's watching, thank you so much. This was a hell of a rip. I've got to say, UK Bitcorners, they bring the heat, they bring the signal.

it was an awesome, awesome time. I'm going to say it again, go follow them all. All the Twitter accounts are down below. Bridge to Bitcoin. Again, BTC map, bolt card, all of that stuff down there and follow their individual accounts as well. These guys are awesome. I'm super glad that these guys made it on.

Behind the scenes, honestly, we're trying to like organize it and everything. And we had some changes of dates and everything. And they were just so gracious in trying to figure out. with my cluster fuck of a schedule being like a parent of two children and traveling and everything they've been nothing but accommodating so again Chris Peter

Simon James again like I can't say enough thank you guys so much for for being here and being part of the show and I can't wait to be in the UK with you guys yeah follow them all down below everybody that's still watching thank you guys so much for being here of course

if you want to help of the show like subscribe share all those things really important you get up the previously mentioned sponsors coin kite shake pay lead and bit refill bill foddle they're all down here and finally if you really liked what you saw you can actually a couple things i'm just going to mention if you're in l.a for pacific bitcoin hit up toxic happy hour that pleb party. Holy shit, 300 plus people. Let's see. What is it at now? Attendees. It's still refreshing, you guys. 314 attendees and counting. Come on down. It's going to be crazy. This is before the event even starts happening. The event is Thursday, Friday. I am then going to be there doing my cold card workshop on the Saturday, 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. It's a four hour deep dive. I

you will be an expert walking out of there with your cold card. So be sure to check it out. BTC sessions.com. Limited tickets left. And there's only like 15 spots available. So get in while you can. On the local front, the theme of this episode was all local. If you're in Calgary, this is where I live.

I am in Calgary. Get on it, guys. Go to the Y, Y, Y, C. Bitcoin only Bitcoin meetup. the next one I'm going to be at, because I'm out of town for a lot of November, I'm going to be at the December 6th meetup, and that is the YWC Bitcoin only, Bitcoin year in review. I'm excited for that one. That should be fun. I'm going to stick around for drinks afterwards. Come down, Calgary, YWC Bitcoin only. You can find it on meetup.com. And again, if you're in L.A., hit up that, my workshop and then talks a happy hour. Let's round it out. Thank you guys so much. If you really liked what you saw, drop me a Bitcoin tip at my strike page. Strike.me slash BTC sessions. You can head there, type in any amount you want, hit the tip button.

You'll see a lightning invoice or a regular Bitcoin QR code if you tap the arrow to the right. With that, I'm out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening. I'll see you guys next time for your daily session.