BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Jake Woodhouse, Lisa Hough, Mickey Koss Discuss Bitcoin's HIDDEN Potential 🚀 ep363

Episode Date: September 2, 2023

FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS: https://twitter.com/PlebiusEconomus https://twitter.com/lisa_hough_ https://twitter.com/JakeBTCAdviser 💪 SUPPORT THE SHOW: Nunchuk Wallet and their Honey Badger plan is a best in class assisted mutisig setup with built-in inheritance planning and NO KYC. Check them out today! https://nunchuk.io/ SEEDOR is one of the most robust metal backups on the market today. Get your SEEDOR starter set today! Use this link for 5% off. https://www.seedor.io/discount/BTCSESSIONS?redirect=%2Fcollections%2Fprodukte For US based customers: https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/collections/hardware/products/seedor-safe-starter-set Start9 is your Bitcoin & lightning node, and full personal server - enabling you to take back control from the gatekeepers of your money and data! Grab Server Lite,One or Pro today and become truly self-sovereign! https://start9.com/   Coinkite offers the BEST Bitcoin hardware on the market. Use this link to get 5% off anything in their store: https://store.coinkite.com/promo/BTCSessions  HodlHodl is a NON-CUSTODIAL, NON-KYC solution to stack sats peer to peer! Buy and sell Bitcoin while maintaining privacy. Sign up and try it out today! https://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSION Free video tutorials not enough? Need some extra hand-holding when mastering self-custody, multisig, coinjoin, running a node, or other skills? Book me for a private session on my website! https://www.btcsessions.ca/ Been watching the show for a while? Like what you see? Help me cover my video costs by sending some sats over on my Geyser Fund page! https://geyser.fund/project/btcsessions

Welcome back everybody to another live stream of Don't Stop. I mean, why are we bullies? This is yellow. Obviously Ben had something to do. Apparently I'm taking over the show. But we're going to have a great episode, I feel. We have today Plybius. Plybius, Jake, Lisa is gonna be fun talking with those three.

They're always out of something, right? Ah, where was that? Yeah. So yeah, enjoy kickback and enjoy the show. This is Yellow taking over. So for why are we bullies? Ah! And because it's alive, I'm gonna refer to my friend. What's his name?

We'll do it live. We'll do it live. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. The fucking thing sucks. And we're back live. Let me get our panelist first. What's what's going on here?

What are you doing? Oh, Ben. This isn't what it seems. It's my show. I was, I'm just playing. man. Now, wait. I was this thing.

God damn it. Okay, I got that sorted. Sorry, guys. Yellow, he's off to this. I put him off. I gave him his Red Bull. I just got in the door. He's sitting back there.

He's got a phone so he can be. He's, he's, he's our, I see him in the chat already. Yellow. Good try. No dice. No dice, man. But you can, you can chill back there and you can type off your comments. Enjoy your Red Bull.

Ah, man. Okay. Anyways, before I bring in our panel, we of course want to take a quick look at where we're sitting in the market right now. Let's jump over to timechain calendar.com. We're sitting at $25,802 per coin. A single U.S. dollar will pick you up 3,876 sats in terms of fees. Next block, 13 stats per byte. If you're willing to wait a little bit, 11 sats per byte should do you.

Don't go sending anything sub, we'll say, 5.5.5. six sats. It'll get purged from the Mempool. And in terms of Bitcoin mined, 19.47 million of them. That's 92.73% of the entire supply has been mined. Shout out to sponsors of the show, hoddlehottle.com. If you are looking to stack some sats and you've got some priorities in mind like peer-to-peer trading, instant self-custody, no K-YC. This is the place to go. You can sign up with an email address once you get in. Choose a currency, payment method, amount, and start viewing offers immediately. They also have a lending platform. Nothing ever re-hypothicated. And you can check them out. Links are down below. When you do stack some sats, you're going to want to store it in some of the

best damn hardware on the market and coin kite knocks it out of the park. Mark four, the cold card. That's my wallet of choice. I use it all the time. I also have a ton of their other stuff like tap signer, cold card, open dime, sats card, all that. And on top of that, coming soon, the cold card Q1 near the end of the year. Very much looking forward to that. If you want to reserve it or pick up anything else I mentioned, head of a coin kite.com and use code BTC sessions for 5% off everything in the store. And you're going to want to back up your wallets very securely.

Of course, Cidor knocking out of the park, it is stunningly beautifully designed way to back up your seed phrases. And it's this robust steel disc and capsule design. Anyways, I highly recommend you check. check them out. It's battle tested to secure your seed phrase from the elements, fire, water, corrosion, all of that. And it is a premium product. So be sure to check them out. Links for them are down below. If you're looking to dive into multi-sig, of course, Nunchuk has you covered with her Honey Badger. That's where you set up a multi-sig on your device, on your mobile

device with things like the tap signer, cold card and plenty of other hardware options. It has baked in inheritance planning. And the whole thing is K-YC-free. So you can set it up with no personal information. Be sure to check them out. And finally, start9.com, your sovereign computing solution. You can set up with their plug-in play devices and run your whole Bitcoin stack. Core, lightning, mempool.com. You can have your data like files, passwords, and photos, nostrilays, and clients. And they have everything from entry level all the way to what I'm running, which is the Start9 server pure. So check them out. Start9.com. But with that, enough of my rambling and yellow. I hope you're doing okay back there.

You're never welcome on the show again. Anyway, so we're going to welcome in our guests. I'm very happy to have Mickey, Jake, and Lisa. Thank you guys. Sorry for the rigum roll at the beginning. I don't know what yellow was thinking, pulling this stunt, but I got him in check, and he seems to be happy sipping on his Red Bull back there. So how are you guys doing?

Howdy. Good, man. Thanks for having me again. Great. Thank you. Awesome. Well, I'm super glad to have all of you. you. And again, everybody in the chat, thank you for being here. I know that Yellow's down there and

he's got his phone back there. So he's commenting now. But he even took over. I see he was typing in the chat before I even went live. I don't know what he was thinking. Anyways, let's do a quick round of intros. Who are you? What do you do? I'll toss it over to Mickey first. Welcome back to the show, man. Can you give yourself a little intro? Yes. So just sort of a PLEB who accidentally started writing proof of work gone fantastically well, I guess. So I have about 70 articles published now across Bitcoin MAG, Bitcoin News, Citadel 21, and most recently Forbes. That's awesome, man.

I've been loving seeing you grace the pages of Forbes online. And also, I got to say it via DM, but I also want to say it. but I also want to say thanks for being so gracious as to mention me in some of your articles. You've thrown my name in there a couple of times, so I very much appreciate it. And you're writing, you're killing it, man. So thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks, Ben. Yeah, no worries.

Jake, I'm going to toss it to you. Welcome to the show. Can you give yourself a little intro for anybody unfamiliar? Sure. Hey, everyone. My name's Jake. I am a podcaster. I had a podcast called Bitcoin with Jake, which Ben,

You were very kind to join me on quite some time ago now, actually. And actually, Mickey, perhaps like yourself, it was a big proof of work project in hindsight. I pumped out 80 episodes in the end, which is now, it's moved on. And I'm now running a podcast called The Bitcoin Advisor, which is the content arm of a new business that I'm a partner in. And we are a collaborative custody specialist. So we're focused on the high net wealth market. And we're helping move large quantities of fiat across into Bitcoin. and then we are a key management service.

So if you use a multi-sig with unchained capital, they give you two keys to look after. Well, if you're carrying a lot of value in Bitcoin and you fuck up looking after those two keys, you cannot get it back, as we all know. So the Bitcoin Advisor is a product I came across in my own journey. And together with Peter and Andy and Juliet, we're building the business up together now,

and we're about eight weeks or so in. So, yeah, that's a bit about myself and my focus today. That's awesome, man. Well, glad to see you growing and everything. And it was a great conversation when I got to come on your show. So thanks for having me there as well. Yeah, awesome. All right.

And Lisa, again, welcome back to the show. Good to see you. How are you? Let people know who you are, what you do. Well, thanks for having me back. I think this is my third time on the show. And this week, I've actually also had the pleasure of being on the Bitcoin Advisor. Thank you, sir. Thank you for joining.

We had a fun chat. I love the clip that you put on Twitter of me making fun of, not making fun, of me recounting a funny conversation that I had with a wealth manager. You are an amazing host, Jake. So thank you for having me. And my friend over there, Mickey, who I got to know on LinkedIn and Twitter, thank you also for featuring me in one of your Forbes articles. that was the highlight of my mother's life.

So thank you for doing that. So I'm Lisa Huff. I work in Bitcoin. And I guess my big news, Ben, you're the first, this is the big announcement that you didn't know was coming. I've taken a role at Custodia Bank. I'm working with Caitlin Long. Oh, awesome.

That's, wow, congrats. That's fantastic. So, yeah, that, I mean, I mean, she's been making the rounds and there's been a lot of drama around her and the Fed and everything. So that's going to be a very interesting place to be. It is already. I mean, yeah, great stuff. Great stuff coming. Congratulations.

Fantastic Steve. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Tyler, in the chat. Thank you, Mike. In the chat. I love, I love Mike. Good to see everyone.

And, yeah, I showed. to everybody in the chat here. That's joining the show. Tyler, Mike, Yellow, Mark, Bitcoin Beacon, JG, everybody that's in there. I see Big Sean as well. Yeah, we have a live chat going on the side of the screen. The entire show, for better or worse, it will be visible to the globe as they watch. So we're going to dive into the show.

For those unfamiliar, this is why are we bullish? And the flow of the show and the idea of the show is very simple. Each one of us comes with a reason for being bullish, something in and around the Bitcoin space that has as excited. And the flow is somebody's going to drop a reason why they're bullish. This is your chance to kind of rant and get off your chest, what you're so excited about. Up next, number two, all together, we're going to riff on that reason, questions, comments, and whatever rabbit holes we end up going down. And then number three, we're going to rotate to the next person until we've all had a turn. So reason, riff, rotate, nice and simple.

So I'm going to get us started today with my reason for being bullish. And I chatted about it a little bit on my news show yesterday, Simply Sessions with Nico, when I covered the kind of tech bits after he got through the news. And I was chatting about it also this morning with Swan. And it's in and around lightning and lightning scaling and a new proposal for something to do with lightning. So this is a proposal called nucleus. And it has to do with capital efficient multi-peer lightning payments. And that is a mouthful. So I'm going to read a little bit here what it says.

And then I actually made, this is how I spent my days. I made slides with my understanding of what I think, like how I think it works. So, okay, so it says, Nucleus is a draft proposal for lightning multi-peer payment channels, which provides better capital efficiency, no inbound liquidity is required, and liveliness. It also doesn't rely on a penalty mechanism and doesn't require the use of atomic swaps and routed payments for scaling. So the Cliffs notes here, Lightning Payment Channels. are currently the only solution for blockchain scalability problems available for existing UTXO based peer-to-peer networks like Bitcoin, which don't require consensus-breaking changes.

Still, existing forms of payment channels are capital inefficient and put high availability requirements on the participants and reduces system utility and adoption. The current work proposes a new form of lightning channel named Nucleus, which can be created and run by multiple participants, not just the typical two, making their liquidity fully available inside of the multiple peer or multi-peer channel. This significantly increases capital efficiencies, improves liveliness, and doesn't require the creation or participation in an atomic swap routing network. The solution can operate on top of any UTXO-based blockchain equipped with threshold multisignature,

schemes and time locks. So what the hell am I talking about? So I'm going to break it down with something I made up. So this is kind of how we understand lightning channels today. So you have the top line here. You have a typical lightning channel, basically a line between two individuals or more specifically two lightning nodes. So you got an orange dot on either end. And on one end, I made three little dots, say somebody has three Bitcoin. Okay, great. You've got you basically lock up that Bitcoin between those two people with a multi-sig. Okay, one node has one key. The other node has the other key.

If you want to transact, you're basically bumping some of that liquidity, some of that lightning or some of that Bitcoin to the other side of the channel in the form of a pre-signed transaction saying, when we close the channel, this is how much Bitcoin you get and how much Bitcoin I get. And we can transact back and forth all day. and without ever a going on chain other than the initial lockup of the Bitcoin. When you extrapolate this out with a whole bunch of users, it looks kind of like bumping the beads on an abacus down and down and down all the way down to your kind of like a six degrees of Kevin Bacon to get to your ending recipients.

So like I bump a bead to one side. The person that I bumped it to bumps a bead to another channel and so on and so forth until it reached the destination. So what does it mean if we have a multi-peer channel? Well, now instead of a linear two-person multi-sig, it looks a little bit more like this. You've got a pool of liquidity in, let's say, this would be a 404. You've got four people, four keys, all locking up Bitcoin between them. And so that means, let's say each of these people has three Bitcoin, as I made with the little white dots there. If somebody wants to send Bitcoin, this is a single lightning channel, a single pool of funds locked in a multi-sig between these peers.

If you want to send a payment to one of the people in this channel, you just move the funds, which is basically a pre-signed transaction saying, if we close this multi-sig, here's where the Bitcoin lands. And so all of a sudden a single lightning channel connects you to multiple people and doesn't have to do any hops. It's a single pool of liquidity. But when you extrapolate out, like we were talking about with bumping payments down the chain to get to a recipient that you're not directly connected with, what if one of the people in that pool of liquidity also has another multi-peer channel where they're connected to multiple other people? All of a sudden, all of these people are connected through a single connection. So that guy in the middle who has two multi-peer channels, all of a sudden, there's seven people all connected with only two multisig and pools of liquidity linked up. And what that means is a transaction, a single person in here could transact with any of these seven people or any of these other six peers with only one hop on the lightning network. And it would look more like this.

You transact with the guy who has the connection. And then it bumps up over to any one of those peers in that single channel. So instead of having seven people connected by who knows how many channels, you've got seven people all connected with only two channels that have been opened or maybe there's 10 people in one of these multi-peer channels, maybe there's 15, who knows. But basically it very much makes

lightning a lot more efficient. There's less need for opening and closing channels constantly because you're connected to so many peers in a singular channel. And it's much easier to route payments because everything is so liquid and fluid and interconnected that it becomes a lot easier on everything. And that starts to throw a lot of our presuppositions about how lightning could scale because we were always thinking, okay, well, I could connect to one person and then I'm going to probably have to have a whole bunch of different channels. And then, you know, hopefully all of those other people are connected well enough that I can bump single lines of payment down a linear path to get to my endpoint. Whereas this, it's like, all right, this channel is

connected to like 10 people. Do I need to pay any of them? No, but any of those 10, probably are connected to other bubbles of people and I can just pay through that single hop. So it just, it takes our scaling, pre-sell positions and completely destroys that math and makes everything entirely different. Now, this, the interesting part about this is it doesn't require any sort of change to Bitcoin. Nothing. It can, it could happen now. It's just whether or not, you know, LND or C lightning or place.

places like that, they're going to have to go through it with a fine tooth comb and they're going to have to take a look and tear it apart and see what are the tradeoffs and like, should we implement this? But at the end of the day, if they do it, there's no risk to on-chain Bitcoin. The network itself stays as is. So I'm super excited about this. I don't know whether or not it eventually gets into production and this is how we're going to be looking at lightning. but it kind of, it's silly to me that I didn't think that this could be a possibility and it's very interesting to kind of think along these lines. And, and I mean, Lightning, while not perfect, already scales the network a lot. And this is just another thing. So anyways, let's, let's dive into it. Let's, let's open it up. So again, I know that was, hopefully my explanation wasn't too much of a cluster fuck,

but I'm just curious your guys thoughts, you know, number one, like, are you, how much are you using lightning right now? Were you worried about scaling on it? How do you think this affects it? So anybody, feel free to jump in, comment, question, whatever. Okay, I want to jump in first. Okay, because I want to say the easy stuff, y'all can talk about the more complicated stuff. I think this is really cool, right?

And I have heard people talk about how concerned they are that the Lightning Network just can't process all of the transactions. But beyond that, I think just from a collateral standpoint, if you have less collateral involved, or if you can use the word leverage. But if you can utilize collateral in this way, it seems like a much more efficient way to operate. So it's cool. Who came up with this? Who works on this stuff? I'm trying to find the person.

So the, it was somebody called, again, just like it looks like an anon dev, but they go by atomic Mr. nuclear. So they basically, and they just threw out. basically a paper kind of outlining what what they want to do. It gets a little technical. It's above my pay grade to fully understand all of the stuff that's here. But I do, you know, I hope I've grasped it quasi correctly, but it looks, it looks wild.

So I think it's exciting nonetheless. There's already been some people that have had some questions and criticisms of it but yeah, I love to see it. Very cool. Also, thank you to pood in the cereal. You did not ask me to your prom, so I couldn't say that that's my big announcement. Hey, Mel, hey, Dan Morrison. Thank you, hello.

I don't quite understand if I can chat with the- Oh, yeah, if you pull up, you'd have to pull it up on YouTube and then pop out the chat. chat. You'll probably get the the like a delay and the audio coming through so you might want to like mute while you pull it up but you can pop out the chat and then you can then you can jump in it on the side as well. So yeah. Yeah. All right. Also, uh, 15 green apples was very amused that you said poo. So, uh, this chat is hilarious. I mean, these people are funny. Like they should be on the show Ben. I know. Like this is this is I should just come on sometime and just have the chat going and people can just you know dictate where the show goes. But I want to open it up to, uh, to Mickey and Jake.

Um, whoever wants to dive in questions, comments on on this topic. Yes. I sort of thought it was interesting in like a like a capital perspective. So the the headline for that white paper was sort of what I was thinking where a lot of people focus on, um, you know, Bitcoin locked up on the Lightning Network as like a proxy for capacity. But with something like this, you know, you could potentially do like exponentially more with, with a fraction of what's in there. And so that just sort of frees up capital for building the bright orange future that we all want instead of just, you know, letting it sit there and just process payments. And so that's sort of super interesting. And then sort of ties into that whole like

BIP 300 debacle that's going on right now where I think most people kind of want like a conservative approach to to, you know, Bitcoin core development and stuff like that. And so if it doesn't require any change the code type things, then, you know, that's that's really cool development, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you were saying there just in and around the conservatism. and it kind of highlights the fact that we don't we don't even know what we can do with what we currently have right like we don't even know the lengths to which we can scale with with lightning and and all of the changes that we've already made via soft fork on chain it would be very much worth it to explore a lot of that and then sure it's it's worth talking about other things but like very carefully approach them

because, I mean, things like this, just throw you for a loop and go, oh, wow, this this thing that we have that was already awesome could be even more awesome without any necessary changes to Bitcoin itself. So, yeah, I think that's a great point to bring out. Jake, I want to toss to you and get your thoughts. Yeah, bring it on. So the title of the show, why are we bullish? This kind of thing is insanely fucking bullish. and it's for lots of reasons but the thing that I draw out of it is first of all someone who is concerned about their digital privacy who's extremely fucking smart

has sat down and done some work and released a paper and said this could make things much much better and it just highlights how the talent that's been drawn into Bitcoin is like nothing I've ever seen any other market I've ever worked in before so shout out to whoever the designer is for this type of work

but to quote Lisa actually from our podcast earlier this week, I like to keep things very simple. So for those of us that have spent hours watching Robert Breedlove and Michael Saylor talking on YouTube, there was a part of that that springs to mind, which is this whole concept of the best superpower you can have is when you cannot be killed. So you can breathe fire or you can shoot lasers out of your eyes. You can do whatever you want. But ultimately, if you can be killed, then it's not as good as the shitty rock on the floor that cannot be killed. And so as a long-term investor, when I look at Bitcoin, it's not going to die.

It's almost arguably impossible to kill. And that makes it incredibly interesting for a long-term investment play. And so you see things like this. Now, I'm not technical enough to understand what Nuculus is. In fact, I've never heard of it until he just mentioned it. But I love the idea that you can scoop good innovation from all different areas of life that you witness and you can build it on top of Bitcoin. And that's precisely what this is. And look, it may not come into fruition. Who knows what will come from it. And that's the beauty of consensus.

But I love seeing things like this because you're like, what? The kind of brain power that's focused on improving this thing, it just shits over anything else I've ever looked at before. So yeah, it's very, very bullish. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I, again, I, the nice thing about all of these interesting things that can be done is is the fact that we can keep the conservatism to the base and we can tinker in layers above. And I'm much more comfortable with that because sure, if aspects of lightning break because of experimentation, yeah, that's, you know, it's a pain in the ass. But Bitcoin itself, the sanctity of this, this, you know,

multi-generational wealth preservation tool is kept and it is not put at risk by tinkering in layers above. We can leave that being less absolutely necessary to change. And there's much more innovation to come, I think, when it comes to lightning and some of the stuff we already have without having to tinker on chain immediately for questionable reasons. So yeah, that's where I'm at. And I'd love to add as well just briefly is the this kind of conversation is a very important one when it comes to understanding why Bitcoin versus other crypto. And the wider crypto market will make every effort in the world to make it sound like what they're developing is impossible with Bitcoin. And therefore it has value. And that's just absolute garbage because it doesn't have this kind of unbreakable base layer to be built upon.

So all these characteristics that we see elsewhere. I kind of touched on already. It just makes a complete mockery of the old coin market. And so Bitcoin is crypto. And crypto are speculative software project being built on Quicksand. So it's it's just, it's such an important thing to highlight that a lot of people haven't realized yet. Yeah.

Yeah. You make such a good point, right? Like the entire argument that the crypto folks present is that like they're creating something that's more technical, it's better. It's like, and we talked about this on your show, like, simple is better. And when I hear those crypto people, I think of the financial engineering that goes on in the traditional system. And I think, you know what we're really good at is humans somehow in the crypto space. This is like linguistic engineering.

Like we say all these complicated things, but then really you get down to it and you're like, that doesn't even matter. Right. Like it's beautiful, but it doesn't even matter. Yeah. Yeah, it's, again, the certainty over how Bitcoin will behave is what makes Bitcoin special. Because it's a greater degree of certainty around how our money will behave than any other system on the planet. And that's including Fiat, obviously, because Fiat, we have zero control over and we have no idea how it's going to work in the future. We have no idea how many units or, or, you know, what interest rates are going to be, all that kind of stuff. And with crypto, it's somebody, you know, it's just microcosms of fiat, right?

You also have no idea how it's going to behave. It's just a different group of people controlling it. And in most cases, it's not you unless it's your coin that you're trying to, you know, push on other people. So Bitcoin is everyone's and no one's all at once. And if there's not consensus, then it's the status quo. And that's the selling feature of Bitcoin. Anyways, guys, I don't want to spend too much time on my topic here. I just thought it was really cool.

And I couldn't quite shake thinking about it the past couple of days. And so I thought it was a great topic to bring up for Why Are We Bullish? So if anybody wants to check it out, no BSbitcoin.com has a great feed. And they're on Twitter as well. And through that, you should be able to find the nucleus. But the thing is called nucleus capital efficient multi-peer lightning payments. Nonetheless, we're going to do a rotation. Again, thanks to everybody in the chat.

Keep those comments coming. And if you haven't already, hit that like button right down below. Do it now. It's super easy and it'll help those algos pump this in front of more eyeballs. But with that, we're going to do a rotation. And Mickey, I'm going to toss it to you first, man. And I'm going to cue you up with a simple question. Why are you bullish? So sort of torn between two things. So the first time I was here, I actually wrote, I like wrote out four different reasons. It's called a pace plan. but so I'm kind of falling back on on one from the other one but so last time I was here it was sort of like these absurd media narratives like like eggs are going to kill you you got to eat

bugs to to save the environment if inflation's getting out of hand you should just get meals and then your your general like orange coin bad from the new york times right and it's sort of indicated like this this sense of of desperation from mainstream media i think but i sort of feel a shift coming on right and so you get those videos from from like canada and california with those women you know talking about like how they can't live and they don't know what they're going to do um you got oliver anthony making his you know dollar ain't shit uh song and then he you know he was on rogan i think two days ago, you got Black Rock backing down on ESG, and then it's sort of Bitcoin infecting the mainstream media to the extent that Optimus Fields accuses us of being a BlackRock sciop,

right? I'm still not convinced that you're not, so. Sure, sure. Yeah, I just got to do one more self-custody article featuring BTC sessions, right? Yeah. So the media is like sort of starting to shift. So I think last week, maybe the week before, Lisa put up an article from Morning Star on LinkedIn. And the author had this, you know, horrible headline like Bitcoin's going to kill you.

But if you actually clicked on it and read it, they did this really great analysis where if you add Bitcoin to a 6040 stock bond portfolio, it increases your risk adjusted returns. like 25%, right? And so it's like, you know, headline doesn't match, but at the same time, you know, you get better results with Bitcoin. And then I think it was yesterday now. I actually saw it with Lisa first again. This senior contributor at Forbes wrote an article essentially saying like it's time to start dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin. And so sort of like the culmination of all these like absurd narratives, people really seeking like people really just displaying like desperation like everyone sort of feels that there's something wrong and i i feel like we're sort of at the turn of the tides where where

the general public is is sort of primed for bitcoin and and bitcoin is sort of ready for the masses or at least getting there yeah that's the one yeah i i didn't write it yeah you're you're totally right i think with the shift i think this is such a it's such an interesting time and i was chatting with this uh with nico a little bit about this the other day how it's interesting how the the the people that kind of came to bitcoin first are on the fringes of society on one hand you have like the most disenfranchised people the people that are either suffering through hyperinflation or their governments are so tyrannical that they they can't get banking or they're cut off from the financial system or, you know, just the world at large

don't trust them to be banked. So those people, they're some of the ones that understand Bitcoin first, but you also have the other end of the spectrum that some of the wealthiest of the elite that understand that they need to, their job is basically to protect purchasing power and to protect their own assets. And so they're starting to clue into this too. We see, again, like, I mean, Black Rock of anybody that owns most of the world, Black Rock starting to understand that Bitcoin is important is, is while, you know, while a lot of us are like, don't buy paper Bitcoin, the fact that Black Rock is understanding that Bitcoin is important in some way, shape, or form is a signal in and of itself.

And I think there's no mistake that those people at those fringes of society are recognizing it first before kind of that middle group of people do, other than us weirdos who maybe got it a few years earlier than the masses. And I think the unique part about it is, in some cases, some of those super wealthy elites are the ones that have most disenfranchised the people that are hurting. But in discovering Bitcoin at the same time as these people, the incentives now begin to align where the people that have hurt the disenfranchised are now incentivized to bolster and better this network that helps them both and may end up being the very people that, through no fault

of their own, end up helping the disenfranchised people by furthering the Bitcoin. network. It's a weird dichotomy where where you've got these kind of, I don't want to say warring factions, but you've got these, these people that were completely divided in incentives now perhaps being brought together, not intentionally, but yeah, I don't know. Do you kind of, does that make sense? Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a, it's, interesting. Anyways, if you guys want to jump in as well on Mickey's narrative shift, I don't know. What are your thoughts? I think it's huge. I think you're absolutely right. I think that it is, I don't know, I haven't been a Larry Fink fan. I haven't been generally a

Black Rock fan because of the ESG narrative that they portrayed. And I think it's taken them a long time to back out of it. They actually had a gentleman that was in charge of all of their ESG funds. And he left the firm, I think like maybe two years ago. He left the firm and he said publicly something to the effect of like this is, you know, they're anti-capital. It's harmful to the investors because you're basically reducing the amount of return that's possible within a portfolio if you can't participate in companies. So it's like limiting the pool with which you can invest. So I feel like it took them a long time, but they did back out of it. And when they backed out of the ESG narrative and really played, you know, said,

we're not going to say those words anymore. And then Larry Fink came on TV and said Bitcoin and Hope on the same interview, it's like, it's like a titanic shift of the atmosphere, right? I mean, everything changed in that moment because we're Bitcoiners. And we are like is my friend, our friend Dan Morrison says, like we are the fringe of the fringe of society. And it's the community of Bitcoin that that keeps us together and invigorates us and keeps us learning. But for Larry Fink, like all the investment managers in the world and all the high net worth and basically everyone on Wall Street looks to him for some guidance. So God bless Larry. I love it. Jake, what about you?

So I'm thinking about a phrase that frankly I heard first in relation to kind of places that get most of their trade from tourism. And you know that saying, just read it to myself. So don't spike the hand that feeds you. And I'm thinking of like I'm British, so I'd go on holiday to like Greece. and you'd meet this really grumpy Greek bloke in his tavernor in the middle of summer who's just like not happy about serving you whatever he's serving you're like mate come on you know there's no one here if we weren't here in the summer and your taverna would be shut like what how is this even happening do you know what I mean so don't spite the hand that feeds you and and the interesting thing

with with modern media is this symbiotic relationship between the message and the customer and the user is entirely different, right? So if I pay you big ad dollars, I do not want anything that you produce to negatively skew the brand that I have. And to give an example here in Australia, there's a broadcasting company that my friend used to work for,

private business, he was on the advertising desk, his customers were local supermarkets, etc. And they had a news desk, and supposedly they were independent, right? The news desk was allowed, to write whatever stories they wanted. But are you telling me that that business was honestly not self-censoring itself in order to survive? It's bullshit. Of course they are. Because if they don't get paid by the biggest supermarkets in Australia, then they're not going to make any money, right?

So to me it's this kind of symbiotic relationship between who's paying and what's the message. And these mainstream media companies ultimately are driven by self-interest. And the biggest customer to date is really central banks. The guys that print the money, they print their own money. They can pay for whatever they want. And part of the Bitcoin rabbit hole is that sudden moment you go, hang on, why do I think what I think? Everything we have been taught in our lives was decided by someone else for some reason. And it's that kind of crazy moment. We're like, well, hang on, maybe I don't know anything. I know my name, you know, but you have to start from like square one on everything. So to see some of these stories coming out, there are a shift in narrative? It's like BlackRock,

okay, I've got all this money under management. I accrued it in a way that worked for me previously. But actually, if they're bankrupt, well, I've got to support the horse that's going to work. And I think we'll obviously see this more and more over time, but it's going to be choppy, choppy time ahead because they're not going to go down without a fight. So it's very confusing trying to figure out what's real and what's not real. But yeah, to bring it back to that phrase, like, spite the hand that feed you. Well, if that hand is withering and dying and someone else has got a really tasty looking thing over somewhere else, it's obvious what people do. Yeah, it's, it is interesting that, you know, these these shifts seem to come on, you know,

just kind of out of the blue. Like you can kind of see the early innings of it, but then, you know, like, again, like Bitcoin's tendrils kind of reach out. everywhere and and it doesn't kind of discriminate who gets orange pilled. It's just whoever. And there's going to be people that are, you know, your, your everyday plebs. And then there's going to be people in the media. There's going to be people in government. There's going to be people all over that do get orange pilled.

And it's, it's just like these, these little dots across the map that just start to, you know, that start to spread out across the map. it's very interesting watching this influx of, you know, either tentatively positive or overwhelmingly positive stuff come out about Bitcoin. In the face of some politicians and some groups that are trying to bash it and bring it to its knees, you know, the Elizabeth Warrens of the world, the, the green pieces of the world, the, the, the, who's the guy from Ripple that basically paid, uh, green piece to do there, clean up the code, whatever his name was. I can't remember. It doesn't matter. Um, but, you know,

all of those people, despite best efforts and actual money going into marketing for that stuff, um, people have begun to cut through the noise and actually find the signal and begin to amplify it because they're directly incentivized to. And I don't think that's going to slow down. There'll be ebbs and flows, but I think directionally, it's going to increase because, I mean, look at the headlines.

Like, Mickey, you said, I pull it up briefly there, but the one, you know, it's time to start dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin in, in Forks. And it could, I can't imagine having seen that in Forbes in like 2015. that like we would have collectively lost our minds and now people they see it and they're like

oh that's cool and they might like take a peek at the headline maybe give it a share because it's a good tweet and then that's a bit about it you're like yeah whatever and like go on with your day and oh that's cool what's next um we are today we are spoiled with how much bullish shit is going on in bitcoin we're desensitized the overton window has shifted and it hasn't stopped moving. Yeah, definitely. On that LinkedIn post about that article, about the DCA article, so I am very active on LinkedIn because I want to reach the traditional folks

and I want to reach the energy folks, which is a lot of my network. And so I post every day on LinkedIn, that singularly has to be the best performing post, which I found absolutely fascinating. because it got shared like 30 times, which I know like if for a Twitter person isn't that much, but like my LinkedIn, I don't know, people don't reach. It's just not the same as Twitter. People don't reshare it.

And it got a couple hundred likes from like traditional people, right? It's like one thing when the four of us are liking one another stuff and retweeting it. But then when you're seeing that like you click on who shared it or who liked it, and I'm like, wow, these are like outside of this funny little rabbit hole. of the fringe of the fringe of Bitcoin. These are just like normal people in our community that are shift. Well, yeah, LinkedIn is a very different ecosystem in terms of the eyeballs that are there.

And I couldn't agree with you more, actually, Lisa, in terms of focusing on that community. You know, they're professionals that are making good money, that will be in positions of power within organizations that they all potentially represent gatekeepers. like whoever the journalist is in Forbes that writ that or wrote that article, they still have an editor desk that has to approve it. And so for years, there will have been people within organizations that wanted to talk about this, but they just were never allowed. It's kind of like when you see a report from,

oh, Goldman Sachs says that Bitcoin is going to zero, or, oh, Goldman Sachs says that Bitcoin's going to like a million. It's just an analyst within that organization of thousands and thousands of people. So I think what's cool here is to identify that the editor layer of somewhere like Forbes has green lighted that kind of content because there'll be people in there that wanted to write about it before. They just weren't allowed. And that's what's cool. Yeah. Okay.

Let's give this guy a shout out because we have now talked about his article like three times. His name is Clem Chambers. He's a senior. Shout out Clem Chambers at Forbes. Thank you. Fantastic article. Yeah, thank you. So a little, sorry.

Go ahead, man. Little inside baseball. So, like, when you're a Forbes contributor, you just get a, you get like a portal. And so you can write. So I write, edit, and publish my own stuff whenever I want. The editors don't even look at it beforehand. Yeah. So there's actually, like, a ton of freedom to do kind of whatever.

And they can sort of pull it after, obviously, if you put up something crazy. but so I'm in I'm in the Forbes digital asset vertical and the editor actually you know she like tweets about cold cards and stuff so you know there's there's sort of a lot of Bitcoin I think Natalie Smolensky is another Forbes contributor um Jason Brett Jason Brett yeah there I mean there's a handful and it's growing too Decentra Seuss just just got on the team um yeah and sort of like when do you think that would have changed because of course there's as Ben mentioned, it's 2015, even if they'd had that same operating system in place of, you know, very free writing for their writers, I'm pretty certain that article would have been pulled.

So when do you think that's shifted or is there, do you have any insight on that? Because it's fascinating. Yeah, I think it's just sort of the proliferation of Bitcoin-minded people, right? And so it's like, and I was sort of going to say this. So you were talking about don't bite the hand that feeds you, right? And I'm sort of thinking, okay, BlackRock manages $10 trillion. So how many ultra wealthy people were calling Larry Fink and telling him to back off on ESG and start backing Bitcoin? You know what I mean?

Because it's not BlackRock's money. It's other people's money that BlackRock just makes 25 basis points on, right? And so I'm thinking, don't bite the hand that feeds you. He's got people calling him every day saying, I want Bitcoin in my portfolio. Yeah, 100%. Right. And so I sort of see those same incentives playing out in the media where there, you know, people are like, hey, I want to know more about Bitcoin. And so the Forbes editor, you know, sort of reaching out and recruiting writers that know about Bitcoin.

And so I guess fortunately for me, I'd been semi-consistent on Bitcoin MAG and some other things and was able to have like a portfolio backing up, you know, my claims of like semi-Bitcoin. Bitcoin understanding, right? And so I think it's just like the proliferation of Bitcoiners in society and just sort of seeping into everything. Yeah, I just want to add on the Forbes note. I think it's actually really bullish that there are so many people in Forbes writing about Bitcoin that don't need editorial approval. Right? Like, think about that. Yeah, it's huge. I mean, that is like you have social idea of Bitcoin if you don't have to have editorial approval. Yeah. Yeah.

It's great. I mean, it's, it's, it's, uh, very much the Bitcoin ethos. Like, um, you know, you don't put a lot of us are, are very, uh, obviously freedom oriented. And, and rather than trying to stamp out ideas, it's better to discuss them in the open. and and and and and uh, and, uh, assert them with whoever is the best at asserting their ideas and backing it up. Um, that's, that's the winner, right? And so, um, yeah, great.

Yeah, allow people to, to, um, put their ideas up in that form and, and debate them afterwards. That's fantastic. Um, anyways, guys, uh, I love this topic. I couldn't agree more that the narrative is shifting. Can you imagine the articles and, and the, the types of content we're going to see years into the future. I want to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to do a rotation. I'm conscious of time. So I want to keep us rolling. And again, everybody in the chat, thank you for being here.

Keep those messages rolling in. Hit that like button right now. Do it. It takes two seconds. And it helps a ton. And we're going to rotate over to Jake. I'm going to toss it to you, man.

And I'm going to cue you up. Why are you bullish? Well, Ben, thank you so much for having me on. It's a real, real great moment to make it onto Bitcoin sessions for the first time. So I'm hugely bullish just on my own personal development in that sense to get to this point. So thank you. I had to think about what I was going to talk about.

And I thought what would be most interesting is what I'm seeing privately. So instead of talking about a public story, very much what I'm living through at the moment. And it is a shameless shill of my new business, the Bitcoin advisor. So my apologies for that, but I think it helps to paint a picture that is not necessarily obvious in the wider market. And so to explain the problem that we solve, I touched on it when I introduced myself at the start. But the Bitcoin Advisor is a key management business. So if you are high net wealth and you're moving capital from Fiat into Bitcoin, it's not necessarily an easy process to go through at this stage. not only do you have to educate yourself on the front end about like what's the investment case

what's the actual problem with the status quo financial system that is existing that I'm not getting served and how are my returns that my investment manager are supplying like not good enough and people are figuring out I don't want to see the dollar return I want to know what my purchasing power is how have I retained value over time don't give me some bullshit portfolio presentation that says oh we beat the MSCI this year or oh here's a basket of other, you know, diversified asset managers that we compete against, that we've also, you know, done better than. So I don't need to know any of that stuff. It's like, do I have more purchasing power this year versus last year? And people that they manage wealth in this way

because they've had to, right? The fiat system incentivizes this plethora of different financial products. Bitcoin's the complete role reversal, right? Super long term, low counterparty risk. You're essentially adding more cash to your portfolio. So it's completely. completely different to investing in a bond, an equity, or any other type of financial product that you might have used in the past. And people are figuring this out, right? So they want to move their money from the old system into the new. To do that, you know, you've got to either sell an investment property or you've got to sell a managed portfolio. You get cash into a bank account. You've got to move that cash to an exchange somehow.

You've then got to not get lured in by Ethereum or whatever other bullshit the exchange is kind of pushing at you. You've then got to move it into self-custody or what self-cust. custody, okay, well, you've got a single key or you could have three keys. Okay, what happens if these keys go wrong in some ways? Okay, I'm actually expert so I can do it myself, but my wife has got no idea what she's doing. She frankly doesn't want to learn what a multi-safe hardware wallet set up is. And so that's where the Bitcoin advisor steps in and we're helping people move money from Fiat into Bitcoin in large sums. So in three months or two months of operation, We've signed up around 30 customers.

And of those customers, the average amount of Bitcoin is eight Bitcoin. And we manage one key. They manage one key. And Unchained Capital is currently our technology partner who has the third key. Now, one of your sponsors I noted was Nunchuk. The Bitcoin Advisor is a technology agnostic product. So we could in theory switch out to whatever tech providers out there. But what's mad is it's really this.

this shift in thinking and mindset from a perspective of wealth management. And you use this phrase before Ben, multi-generational wealth. Well, that's what Bitcoin is. It's the tool that does that. You don't need any of this other stuff any longer. You just buy it, you hold it, but you've got to make sure you can access it. So that I use this phrase, what happens if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? Like, could you honestly say that you're comfortable with your self-custody set up and your wife can access it or heaven forbid both of you got hit by bus tomorrow what happens then you know even if she's knows whether the seed phrase is it's it's a peace of mind product in many ways that we supply at the bitcoin advisor and the traction that we've got just at eight weeks of being live is is beyond our dreams

and that to me is just like what we've hit product market fit really really quickly and it's then this this this really unobvious but um important aspects to what the Bitcoin market is doing, which is private wealth. People who have earned money, people who have inherited money, they're smart. They want to protect their purchasing power over time. They're Bitcoin curious, and they're actually putting their money where their mouth is. So they're not a money manager. It's very different, right?

I have capital. What do I do with it? Well, I have to decide. Whereas when you're managing money for someone else, it's like hundreds of regulations. I don't want to step out of the lane. you know the common consensus is you can't hold bitcoin in a portfolio and there's a you know a bunch of reasons that your manager will tell you're absolutely how to put bitcoin in there well you know maybe an etf will change that right that's a big big shift in terms of rhetoric from the top of the

the status quo financial industry but yeah to me this just is it's insanely bullish it's like okay people with private wealth have figured out that they want to own bitcoin at very minimum it's a 1% 2% allocation but that is quickly rising to 10 15 20, 30, 40, 50 percent. It's like, whoa, this is insanely bullish. And the fun part is these guys are, they're front running Wall Street. So it's absolutely hilarious in the same way that any humble pleb can do the same. You know, if you're stacking stats today, the people that run the financial system as it is

have regulated themselves out of Bitcoin. It's hilarious. And so it's like, right, screw you lot. You're no longer fit for purpose. Bitcoin is a better long-term multi-generational wealth tool. And that's what people are choosing to do. So yeah, forgive the shameless shill of the new business, but it's not a commonly known fact.

And so I'm happy to share that with you. Obviously, we're very conscious of the privacy of our customers. And so I won't be sharing anything about who they are and where they are, etc. But yeah, that little bit of insight on the average Bitcoin per customer is massive, right? You think, wow, okay, this is fascinating. It's great insight. I love that the average amount that you hold for a customer is eight Bitcoin. Yeah.

Right. Like, you're just over time, right? You need one whale to come in with a thousand Bitcoin and your average is blown out. But that's what it currently is. Right. But think about the fact, I mean, just think about if people never had more than eight Bitcoin. Right? To us, like today, that's still a lot of money. But eight Bitcoin, there's only 21 million. I saw an article or a high chart or something the other day about the number of billionaires in the world.

Forget millionaires, right? Like there's 50 million. Well, I'll jump in. That's crazy. In 2025, there's going to be 65 million millionaires. Yeah. So that's 18 months from now, roughly. That's bonkers.

I mean, I think that is so, okay, yeah, so super, super cool. I'm looking for this chart. The thing to add as well is, these people own eight Bitcoin today, but that's an allocation, right? So this is a very different way of thinking that someone who is managing wealth has. They're like, okay, I've got my primary residence, I've got my, you know, holiday house. I might actually have a portfolio of different investment properties that they've used a store of wealth over time. They'll have a money manager that's got them in the equities and bond markets. They might have private equity investment.

You name it, right? They own lots of different financial tools. And the The truth is, when you get really close to Bitcoin, you have to go, why do I own what I own? And I mean, even in my case, I'm about 50% Bitcoin. The other 50% is an equity position that I inherited, which is in my family business. Back in the UK, we're a beer and pub company. So shout out to my uncle, who's the chairman there and my cousins that work in the business. My father, he sadly died now 15 years ago. he was the managing director of the company.

And it's 240 plus years old. We've been doing this since the 1700s. It's absolutely mad. But the closer you get to Bitcoin, you're like running a company, why are we doing that? If it's about store of wealth over time as a family, and Bitcoin is better at that than an equity, why do we own the company?

So I'm at this funny position now. I'm like, whoa, am I just holding this thing for a purely emotional perspective? Yes. And yes is the answer. I know that's the answer. I was in tears on the street. By the way, 100% fine to have something because you're emotionally attached to it. Like we don't need to be full on psycho bitcoins, right? There is a work-life balance. There is like family Bitcoin balance. Like totally fine. Yeah. I like how as you said, we don't need to be psycho Bitcoiners right below your face pulled up.

Tyler Durden, 98% Bitcoin. go try that. So just to wrap it up then, so in terms of my rant, the, yeah, Bitcoin does mad things to you in terms of your thought process. And if the game is long-term wealth stewardship, then why do you own anything else? And people are asking this question, and they're realizing that they own a ton of stuff they don't like.

And therefore, they're selling it, and they're buying Bitcoin. And so that's just, it's insanely bullish. Yeah, that's super bullish. I uh the thing that I'm I'm honing in on on your reason is I mean you know those allocations and those numbers are are great um but the the thing that I'm liking is is kind of like the the the technical way in which people are are not placing trust in singular entities anymore right so you said that somebody might be using like you're agnostic with you know what technology you're you're kind of pairing with and you said somebody might be at unchained but you also mentioned nunchuk or you know whatever and and you're taking another key and and maybe you don't know what the other entity is maybe you do i don't know but either way you you can't unilaterally

as unchained and Nunchuk couldn't, you can't unilaterally access somebody's money. And so I love the idea that, okay, yeah, everybody right now is buzzing and chatting about all this ETF news and everything. But at the end of the day, you know, sure, there's going to be capital inflows there, but how much paper Bitcoin is going to come of that? Whereas the people that are truly innovating,

the people that are truly also getting it are the ones that are saying, you know, we're using Bitcoin as an escape from the legacy system. And how does that look to a person that maybe is a little hesitant to have all of the responsibility on their shoulders, but they understand the appeal of no longer having to ask permission from a single entity that could rug pull you. Well, it looks a lot like what you're talking about. You've got one entity that has a key. You've got another entity that has a key.

And in my opinion, what I would likely be doing is perhaps having, you know, one of the other keys and maybe a duplicate of one of those keys as well, just in case, right? but I mean like then then you're really completely hedged in all those instances right like if all the sudden you know the government came and said okay this this entity in this country you don't allow the person to log in and use your interface

anymore we're not going to let you sign transactions for them okay well shit if you haven't kept your your file your wallet configuration file, you might be a little hooped there. But then when you throw in another third party into the mix, then all of a sudden you're kind of hedging against, especially if they're in different jurisdictions, you're hedging against those potential outcomes where it's like, oh, that entity went down, they lost my key or whatever.

Okay, well, I'll now go over to this one. And if you've got a duplicate of one of the keys, then you can also move things. things entirely on your own. So I mean, I love the mentality and some of the tools that are coming about where you're hedging against yourself making mistakes, but not trading off custody in the process. And I think that's a huge thing. I love it.

Well, Ben, I have some comments if that's all right. So Bitcoin is redefining. property rights, which is not something that a Forbes article talking about DCA and will mention. And it's a very, very fundamental question. And it comes back to like, well, what is a bearer asset? And the idea that Bitcoin is digital gold is very helpful when talking to investors from this perspective. It's like, okay, would you prefer to have digital gold in a place that no one else can move

except for yourself and cannot be debased, or would you prefer to have dollars in a system that is controlled by someone else in assets that can be seized at any moment? Now, I'm referring to the house that you live in. At the end of the day, it is a piece of paper from the government that you live within saying, this piece of land is currently stewarded by X. But look at what happened with the lockdowns. I was in Melbourne. Absolute fucking disaster this place. And the guy locked us up for up to a year for something that doesn't do anything to you, right? Just complete propaganda, the whole thing. What property rights did we have?

They were just whipped away, right? You cannot do that with Bitcoin. And to get ultra bullish, we had a guy who contacted us recently who was a lawyer. And he specializes in inheritance planning, and he's based in the States. And he's a specialist with a place called the Cook Islands. and we talk a lot about having an inheritance plan. So if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, will your assets be accessible and passed to your beneficiaries

in a way that you so wish? Yes, okay, make sure you get that put in place. How does multisig help that? Well, you can have geographically dispersed keys and you can have a number of other different kind of characteristics that help. But to specifically mention the Cook Islands, this guy helps people protect assets before they die, by putting them into structures that mean that governments cannot get them.

Now, if you had a key in the Cook Islands, which is a jurisdiction out of the control of the United States federal government, and you contact them as a lawyer in goodwill saying the government needs access to that for whatever fucking reason they come up with, and that you don't hear anything back, you can stand in an American court and you can say, I put my hand on the Bible, I've tried my best to get this,

but I have not had a response. I'm sorry. So it's effectively, it's a loophole, right? And you've still played within the game of the law. You haven't done anything that legal. And fuck you. I'm keeping my money. And so there's this kind of,

it's basically financial advice. That's being, it's being innovated as we speak on top of the rock that cannot be killed, that I mentioned earlier. That is extremely bullish. So yes, no, that's just a couple of other insights that I'm seeing going on that are pretty huge. I love that. I want to toss it to Mickey here to get his thoughts.

I just wanted to bring up one thing in the chat before I do from Narwal. And he brought it up. I was chatting about it earlier in another show. But he said, I think Odell mentioned that there's a form of multi-sig coming along in which not every keyholder can know the amount of Bitcoin in custody or the amounts of transactions. And that's actually, yes, that's absolutely true. It's something called Frost. And it's a multi-sig, I believe, using miniscript. And what you could technically do is you could have, you know, an entity like yours, Jake,

holding a key. But right now the current trade-off with assisted multi-sig is that whoever is holding another key for you, who has a forum and understands how much money is being protected by the multi-sig. With Frost, you basically become just a guardian of the key or the corporation or a company just becomes a guardian of the key that doesn't have insight into the quorum. And on top of that, you can also have the ability to ask for signatures from them, but they could be blind signatures, meaning that the entity wouldn't necessarily know the amount or the balance or any of the transaction history that you would know now by being

a collaborative person in that multi-sake. So I think that's super awesome. Again, just back to the earlier topic, look at what we're still figuring out what we can do with Bitcoin as it exists now. Super off. I love this kind of stuff. Okay, I'll let you jump in in just a sec. But I'm just going to reiterate, when you take a technology agnostic position like we have done at the Coin Advisor, incorporating obvious improvements in the security and safety of clients' assets, it's a no-brainer. And so you see things like this developing. You're like, awesome.

And just imagine where we'll be in five years' time. Because as a key manager, I actually don't need to know what assets are under management, as long as I'm being paid, what I'm owed, if that makes sense. And I'm delivering the product I'm supposed to. Yeah, how cool. Sorry, Mickey, over to you. Yeah, sure. So I'm sort of looking one level up.

I think I see like three trends converging here. And so you get you get services like Bitcoin Advisor, sort of similar to Jesse Meyer's on-ramp company. They just started up making it really easy for high net worth individuals and institutions to actually take sort of managed self-custody of real Bitcoin. And then sort of looking into the banking sector, I saw like a tangent here.

So last December, the Bank of International Settlements sort of put the green light for banks to hold 2% of their reserves in Bitcoin. And then you had the rollout of Fed Now a couple months ago, which over time, as it sort of propagates through the system, will allow finality of settlement between banks 24-7. And so if you look at traditional reserve assets, those things only trade, you know, Monday through Friday, if it's not a holiday from 9.30 to 4 p.m. And so I think Fed Now, plus these like institutional custody services are going to be pretty integral to the sort of health of the banking system going forward. Because what happens if you get like these super high net individuals, like using Fed Now to withdraw their billions of. of dollars on like a Saturday, right? So you could literally get like Fed Now could potentially enable like weekend bank runs. And so so I think I think the implications of these services with in the context of Fed Now and banking is is sort of huge and could could really start like onboarding

banks and using Bitcoin as as a like 24 7 365 reserve asset with with deep liquidity in order to sort of, you know, shore up your reserves. Make sure you don't go bankrupt on a Saturday. Yeah, absolutely. I, again, I don't want to take all the time from everybody else, but I'm just wondering if anybody else wants to chime in, any kind of final thoughts or anything, are in and around this topic specifically,

if anybody has any last minute things to say. I have one last comment just briefly, sorry, Lisa. Shout out to the guys at OnRamp, really great team, and I'm sure they'll make a huge success of their business. It is a slightly different product to what we're creating at the Bitcoin Advisor in that they have built what's called a trust, and they're using a fund mechanism. So in some ways, it's a paper layer in between the actual bearer asset Bitcoin. And so in my mind, there's a lot more trust required in using a tool like OnRamp versus the Bitcoin Advisor where we're helping people to self-custody using multisect. So the way that it's set up, we cannot collude with the technology provider that we're using. And the customer is in full control of their funds and their Bitcoin.

So it's a slightly different product in that sense, Mickey. But you're right. The point is there's obvious demand from existing professionally invested funds. And there'll be more products and businesses that pop up in this area to do that. I wouldn't be surprised if OnRamp is much more effective in the institutional market rather than the high net wealth individual money. Interesting. Cool.

Lisa, sorry, you were about to say something. Did you have anything before we rotate? I don't remember. That was a long time ago, and I'm captivated by Jake. I mean, he's an amazing host. That's all right. That's all right. Well, we're going to keep it with you anyways.

We're going to, again, Jake, great topic. I love chatting. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I love hearing what you're doing there. I think it's awesome. So, but yeah, we're going to do a rotation again. Everybody in the chat, again, thanks for joining us for Why Are We Bullish.

I think Yellow is still doing okay back there. I'm glad he's kind of kept it down back there, thankfully. But everybody in the chat also, again, hit that like button if you haven't already. It's right below the screen. Super easy to do. It takes a second. And it really does help the show. But with that, let's do a rotation.

Lisa, we're going to keep it with you. and I'm going to cue you up. Why are you bullish? So I have two reasons for being bullish. Reason number one, I'm bullish because there are military guys that are completing their service that are going to come work in Bitcoin. I love that. I'm not going to name any names, Mickey.

No, I love the connection between the military and Bitcoin and they see it, right? They see straight through the disqualification. in the Fiat model. So I'm super excited that Mickey is getting out. And I am certain that every company that is in this space is going to be after him. I didn't know you had 80 articles or 70 articles or whatever you said. I remember when it was 38 articles. I think I might have met you when it was like in the teens. That's awesome. Yeah. Proof-itable. That's amazing. I've got some reading to do. You've got your work cut over you, man.

They're good. Ben, you know why I'm bullish. I talk about it all the time. I'm bullish because of the energy companies. And, you know, these are the conversations that I have with my friends and with my network here in Houston. For those that don't know, I worked in the energy business for a long time. I traded natural gas.

And I see so many synergies of how. the NAC gas market developed both from a product standpoint. So, you know, what is available, whether, you know, how are participants in the market, how are producers in the market able to hedge a position? And, you know, that may be, anyway, I won't go into it. But I see a lot of similarities as to how the market is developing. And I'm writing a paper right now. if I actually put more than about 100 words together at one time,

it will be my first sort of entry into the published world. I'm really getting a lot of inspiration from Mickey and others. Mike Hobart, amazing writer in our space. But what I want to talk about is, I'm not going to give too much away, but this is a shift in the focus of an energy company. So, you know, when I first get to people in the energy business, I say to them like all the stuff that you hear in the Bitcoin community.

Like you need to be taking excess energy and converting it into Bitcoin. So I'll give you an example that I use all the time. Power company that is based here that sells into ERCOT. into the grid in Texas, like 4% of the time, they have to pay to have power taken from them. It's actually more economical than shutting their operation down. You've got, you know, big companies like Entergy who spin these huge turbines. Same thing. You know, at times they have to shut those turbines down, which is really, really hard on equipment

when you're constantly turning stuff on and off. It's like your starter in your car. if you've ever had to replace a starter because you're a mom and you're running errands and you're starting your car 50 times a day. Like you have to replace your starter more frequently than someone that just drives 400 miles in a day. So it's really a way for the energy companies to get their brains around it. You know, I just explain it like, look, it's a way for you to monetize every molecule, right? Like it's accretive to your business model just to take what's left over.

But what I hope that they will eventually see and where I see the conversation shifting is you have access to resources of any kind, whether it's cow methane or landfill methane or minerals that are being extracted from the earth, right? Like you should direct it to Bitcoin. It's not super obvious right now because when most people that most energy companies are very comfortable with, the socialized ideas of forward curves and pricing things off of forward curves. And what I mean by that is in the futures market and energy, it's priced, the futures are priced by month, monthly. And you can get someone to make you a market 10 years out. So, you know, that really allows you a lot of, you know, economic incentive to mitigate risk. Well, in Bitcoin, we don't have that yet. And So when you look at a project that's, you know, you've got a Bitcoin mining project and you look at the Bitcoin forward price, there is no 10-year curve.

It is like maybe you can get somebody to make you a market three months, but it's going to be pretty flat to where it is today. And when you factor in the halving and the reward being cut in half, like the math doesn't work, right? Like that dog doesn't hunt. So everybody just goes, yeah, it doesn't work. I don't I'm just going to keep drilling holes. This is what I understand. I'm just going to keep doing this. But of course, we probably all, if they're on your channel on YouTube, then, like, we get it, right?

Like the jig's up. We know Bitcoin's going to be a multimillion dollar asset and like plug that shit in now, get those miners running because like now or never, guys, there's only 21 million and we're most the way there. So let's cook. So anyway, that's what I'm bullish about. Same thing I always talk about. I mean, it's great. And you're seeing more and more of it. And not just energy companies, but you're seeing nation states as well, you know,

starting to realize in terms of mining that if they have stranded energy, that's a missed opportunity if they're not partaking in it. Bhutan was one that we found out about earlier this year. but there was one that literally was just the other day. Oman. Yes. Oman. And they put like over a billion worth of, was it over a billion worth of U.S. dollars worth

into mining infrastructure or 1.5 billion into mining infrastructure? That's wild. That's a nation state basically saying like, hey, Bitcoin and energy, they are, they, are inextricably linked and we want to partake in that. And we recognize that if we're not doing that, then we're leaving money on the table. We're not fully realizing the efficiency that we could be with our energy resources. It's a no-brainer. If you have sources of energy that you're not using to their fullest potential,

what the hell are you doing? What the hell are you doing? There's some stat where like 60 something percent of all energy that is created by people is literal waste. Like doesn't end it just gets lost either in transmission or in production or whatever it may be. But most of the energy we create is waste. That's a lot of energy that could be harnessed to help secure the Bitcoin network. Yeah, agree. And I'm not going to give away the thesis of my article.

But like, that's the very beginning of the explanation, right? Like, that's the hook to get somebody interested. That's like the cute black dress that the girl wears to, like, get your attention. Like, it's the tip of the iceberg. There is like so much more that will come into the forefront between the energy business and the Bitcoin business. So Lisa, I've got a I've got a question on on the other end of the spectrum in your in your in your thesis. And I again, I don't want to I don't want to give away too much of it. So if it does, if the question does tap too too far into your topic, I don't think it will.

But so in a world where you have these large entities that no energy inside and out. realizing that all of this waste energy that was effectively just written off as a loss, or perhaps incurring carbon taxes because of emissions and things like that, in a world where these energy producers and some of these nations are understanding that they can tap into energy that was not being used for a single thing and thus making a positive out of nothing or out of a negative. What does, do you think the era of just regular mining for regular people is gone? And do you think, well, I guess I shouldn't say the era of regular mining for regular people.

The era of mining for a profit incentive, do you think that's gone? And do you think that individuals clue into the same thesis in general, but then start to start to use it to just reduce their home bills. And what I'm talking about is, do you see people understanding that if they're wasting energy, they're wasting money and begin to hone in on, well, what if I heat my home and simultaneously mine? What if I get paid back for a little bit of my heating bill by running a Bitcoin miner?

What if I heat my hot water tank with a Bitcoin miner and reimburse my, myself a little bit. What if people, do you think people get as creative and realize as much as some of these large energy producers eventually? Look, I think the answer is there's always going to be a farmer that can grow carrots more effectively than I can. I'm still going to grow carrots. I still need to eat. And in all seriousness, I mean, if you're, if you are an individual, at home with access to power and you can afford to mine Bitcoin, close your eyes and mine Bitcoin, right? The math doesn't have to work. It is a scarce resource. It is like you're canning tomatoes for tomorrow, right? Like remember back 50 years ago or 100 years ago when like we as people would

grow our own food and then we'd can it and put it in the basement. That's how we need to be thinking about this. We need to stop with the everything has to be super economical and has to make sense. And like that's such a socialized idea of, um, of like us being put into a box. Like this is your chance to go literally grow something that will protect you and protect your family forever and ever. So, you know, if you are so inclined to go mine Bitcoin for whatever your reason, because you want to heat your water heater, I mean, heat your water instead of using water heater, if you live in Canada and, you know, you can pipe it through your floor and heat your house. So be it. But like, I mean, I have four miners here that it's freaking hot here. And I'm like, I should just turn these on. I got to figure out the electrical so I don't burn my building down. I live in a high rise. But like, you don't even, you shouldn't even care. If you have access, you are a, I saw Dan Morrison, right? You know, you're a steward of energy assets.

I mean, you're a steward of your, of your family's well-being, right? And their future well-being. And if you know about Bitcoin and you don't do something, you know, don't come calling. Yeah. Shout out to my friend Dave in the chat. He said I was able to turn off my furnace in February and March, heating my home with miners only. And he's got a he's,

he's, you know, he's not, he's got a lot of square footage to heat. So hats off to him. And I will say that I do have my S-9 space heater in the living room. That is wife approved. And I did a little video on how to ramp down. the wattage and get some different fans on it so that you can get reimbursed for a little bit of your heating bill and my wife always has the the space heater on so i'm literally just replacing that

with a minor that looks nice uh and uh and yeah and so you know we get some stats back in return for energy that we're going to be using anyways so why the hell not why the hell not can i make one other comments since you said the word wife um this was this has been bothering me i actually wrote it down I'm going to make some sort of a tweet about this. But I would like to, well, let me go back. When my daughter was five, when she was going in the kindergarten, she made a new friend. And I became friends with the mom,

who is this rock star woman who started an oil and gas accounting firm. They do oil and gas tax accounting. It's like some very complicated, her kind of slogan is like, when you need me, you need me. So this mom says to me one day, like, I guess I had made a comment about math, like maybe not liking math or not being good at math. And the mom said, don't ever say that around your daughter again. Just my advice, don't ever say that around her again because you are socializing her to the idea that it's okay not to like math. And as a young woman, like, she's like get the idea around that like math is cool, science is cool.

you love these things, which I did not. I mean, I didn't. So I started telling my child alive. It's probably the only child live I've ever told her. But she grew up loving math and loving science. And now she's studying Bitcoin. So Jake said earlier something about, oh, the wife doesn't want how to learn how to use the hardware wallet.

Like we need to quit saying that women don't want to do these things. Like even if it's true, I'm sure it's true. please let's all agree within the BTC sessions universe we are not going to say these things anymore because it predisposes women to feel prejudiced against holding their own keys which by the way i'm not technical at all and i can do and i do have for a long time yeah my lisa is great pushback yeah yeah well my my wife also named lisa uh she came to miami for the conference And she also came to another event last October and she's going to be in LA for Pacific Bitcoin. But she is actually intrigued by mining.

She's actually super. It's like there's two aspects of Bitcoin that she's very interested in. One is kind of the human rights perspective and kind of like the helping the disenfranchised with Bitcoin as a tool for human freedom. But the other, oddly enough, because she's not typically a super technical person, but she finds mining. so interesting. And one of the things that she saw at the conference was the hot tub that was heated by minors. And she was like, oh, that's so cool.

Can we do that? And so we're now, you know, there's many projects that we're kind of curious about maybe having minors for. One of them, I want a big greenhouse on the side of the house to extend the seasons a little bit and be able to grow our own stuff

along the side of the house, like, well into the fall or, like, start early in the spring. You know, we don't have a garage right now, but we're, we'll probably build one. And I think, uh, heating that with, with, uh, a minor would be fantastic. Um, and then even just like piping it back into the house in, in the winter, like, we get long winters here. And, and to be able to offset our, our heating bills all winter would be amazing. We're kind of doing it with the S-9, but that's kind of limited to, you know, the living room where it's sitting. But to actually pipe that through our central air would be amazing.

So, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, you know, I say wife approved because that was Rick from CryptoCloaks. His wife wasn't too keen on, like, loud miners running in the house to heat it. But he did all this experimentation to put on and figure out how. to get it down to an acceptable level. And I can confirm that my wife is more than happy to have a Bitcoin miner sitting in our living room running. And it makes no more noise than a regular space heater. So yeah, anyways, I totally agree.

And there's been an – I've got to say, there's been an influx of more and more women into Bitcoin. And I think that was just a natural thing that was going to happen. Okay. Also, again, I'm sorry. I want to push back on that. We've always been here. You just fucking haven't listened. Fair.

I talk to so many women every day that are like, hey, you know, they tell me their story. And I'm like, you've been doing this. It's like 15 or 15 or 16 or 7th. It's like, dude, like, I don't know. It's hard. to sort of break into the, I don't want to use the word spotlight, but, you know, it's like, you got to get on stage in Twitter spaces and you got to like start writing like Mickey. You got to start writing and just putting stuff out there.

And there are a lot of women here. They've always been there. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like you go to events and I've typically been, especially the last little bit, surprised when I, I think, again, just. because maybe online, I don't know, I don't see as many. Yeah. No, I agree.

No, you're 100% right that they're not, they're not right, or they're not active on Twitter. But they are here and they are working. And there's a lot of women, there are a lot of women who work in energy. And as the convergence between the two happens. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. No, nerve has. has not been struck. I'm not like, I'm not like, but it's like something people always bring up to me. Somebody asked me to, I can't even remember what? Like the other day, they were like, oh, hey, will you come get your picture taken or something? It's like we don't have any women in the photo. It's like, no. Now that you've asked, absolutely not. So Lisa, it's not, I mean, Bitcoin's for everyone, right? There's no, why has gender got anything to do with this?

So it's, you're absolutely right. I would like the Bitcoin advisor to be a tool that helps to skill wives up in some ways. I'm not saying that they're not there, but they're 100% part of the decision-making process when it comes to storing wealth. And so we have ended up on calls with a husband and wife. And the wife we're having to coach through, okay, well, look, this is how this works. Teach them about multi-sig.

Teach them how if anything went wrong, you can call us, or this is the inheritance plan that gets put in place. Absolutely, they get it, right? But their main thing is, what tends to be anyway, it's just a very conservative approach. It's like, what is my husband spends all day online tweeting about whatever it is. And I think he's fucking mad in some ways. But when they get on,

on a call with people who are clearly legitimate, clearly professional, who've done it all before, they're really interested and engaged. And it's, yes, one shouldn't kind of throw that, oh, the wife thing down in that same way. You're right. Well, I just wanted to lop onto that. Like, I think that's a socialized idea also that we need to flush down the toilet, um, hat tip to food in the cereal. Um, like the, the idea that women should be left out of a financial planning conversation. So many of my friends say, or women like in high net worth group I go speak to, they all say the same thing. Oh, my husband does this. Right. Like that is a dumb socialized notion that is so 19 something. And now it's 2023. Like stop saying that. Everyone should be

responsible financially for themselves because let me tell you, like hopefully nobody here gets divorced, but when you get divorced, like you basically fleece each other for all that you can. And, you know, I'm just saying like have Bitcoin hold your own keys, avoid that mess. Yeah, anyway, sorry. Maybe I am ranting. Maybe you did strike a nerve. Sorry. I do have a point there to add, though, Lisa, in terms of, so when my father died,

the inheritance process was very traditional English law. and there was a clause in there that said, if my mother ever co-habits with another man, the wealth that is inherited by the trust is to be removed from her in some way. And it was just like 25 years of marriage and then you get this line in a will. And it's in there because it's designed

so that someone who marries the widow can't get 50% of the wealth on divorce if that situation ever arose. But there's all sorts of different things you come across. Okay, but they can't take it from you anyway. I mean, if you because you come with your own assets into a marriage and you can leave with those assets. Like if I get remarried and I contribute, you know, my salary, that's community property while we're married. But everything I had prior to the marriage is my own property with the exception of like if I had Apple stock and it paid a business.

dividend, the dividend is community property. Income earned during the marriage is community property. So like, anyway, yeah, I'm huge on financial planning and wealth planning, estate planning. And I should mention to you, like, if you're doing your will, make sure that you have a definition in your will about Bitcoin specifically. Like, have them write in a paragraph defining what it is. because often, at least in Texas, the standard will references digital assets, which to me meant like the 55,000 photos I have on my iPhone, not my Bitcoin. Interesting. You've got to be real careful.

So I just, this is what I was trying to say was that line in my father's life for my mother in terms of her self. No shit. No questions. And the way that I've set. Are we losing them? Things up with my wife is very different. So I'm trying to evolve in that sense and make, you know, 50-50, right?

So to evolve. At which point I've also just got the, my daycare duties have kicked in. I'm going to have to disappear, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. It's been awesome. You're awesome, Jake. See you later. No worries.

Cheers, Jake. Great to be you, Ben. Awesome to be on. Thanks, Lisa, so much. Awesome. Thanks, Jake. Mickey, I want to toss it to you as well. Obviously, we kind of have two.

We went down a rabbit hole a little bit. But I'm curious, your thoughts on energy, but then also, you know, the conversation we've been having. So I'll toss the mic to you. Yeah, sure. So I sort of credit my wife with basically my entire Bitcoin journey. So I think I really approached Bitcoin to begin with out of sort of, almost out of Nile, right where i was you know i sort of feeling the pressure from from inflation um struggling with you know like a growing family and and trying to like continue saving and investing towards

towards retirement right and so when i found bitcoin i was sort of like understood it intuitively and i was like yeah let's just like yolo let's hey i want to put all of our money into bitcoin and she's like No, we're not doing that. And so it sort of forced me down the rabbit hole to really understand what it is and be able to explain it to her to get her on board because it's something I couldn't have done unilaterally because I would prefer to stay married to her. Yeah. And so, you know, immediately after buying it sort of in any meaningful amount, we had that. COVID crash. And I was sort of freaking out, but she was like, you just told me all about this last week. Why don't we just buy more? Like, it's really cheap now, you know?

And so I, yeah. And so without my wife, I, I, you know, potentially could have, you know, panicked so old, got burned, whatever. But essentially without her, I don't think we would be in position where in now, especially because she sort of forced the deep research required. And then she's actually coming with me to Pacific Bitcoin next month. So it's going to be pretty sick. And she's, you know, she's not like, she's a bitcoiner, right?

But she's not necessarily obsessed with it like I am. But she's excited to meet everybody, excited to learn some more things. In terms of energy, right? I think, you know, more and more investors in the energy sector, capital raise. Mickey, you sound like one of those crazy Bitcoin people. Yep, that's me. So I actually have financially illiterate psychopath in my Bitcoin magazine bio. But, yeah, so, you know, energy companies, you got to raise capital, right?

And they have a fiduciary duty to make return on that investment. So, you know, if flare stacks aren't free, right, so that requires an investment just to build one and then waste the gas and do nothing with it. And so just alone on like, you know, the gas flaring, you know, I think I think the investors are going to start holding energy companies accountable for like using Bitcoin as a tool to increase ROI. New energy projects, it can take years for them to get connected into grids. So, like, you build a solar farm. I mean, you know, it could take four years. And so what, what are you going to, you're just going to sit there and not cash flow for four years. And you're going to plug some miners in and start ROIing on that investment immediately.

And so the future I see is energy sector is sort of, it's almost like a Trojan horse. And I think Bitcoin mining and energy companies are almost going to start merging. And Bitcoin mining will become a part of energy infrastructure across the United States, across the world. Yeah. And then sort of going back to that heating stuff. There's actually companies, I was trying to find the podcast. I couldn't find it. But these guys just essentially created a heat pump that plugs into like HVAC systems.

that uses uh yeah and so it i think it like it sits on top of like your water heater and it and so it like heats your water heater and it also like feeds up into your hvac system and so it reduces your energy bill you get paid and so you know as as that stuff develops too i think the home mining is just going to be part of like it's just going to be built into appliances because why would you want to waste electricity running it through these inefficient resistors where the coils just kind of don't conduct electricity that great and they heat up, or do you want to run it through some some ASIC chips that heat up also, but pay you back for using the energy? And so I think, I think this is sort of the big Trojan horse and super bullish on wives and energy.

Yeah, I love that. Also think of all the people that are going to brag to their neighbors about how they don't, they don't have to pay for heating anymore, and they're getting paid back for the energy that they use and all that kind of great stuff. I mean, I know that I, I would be that guy with the neighbor being like, yeah, but I get paid back for my water heating, from my home heating, from my green house outside. You know, like I, you know, and then people get curious and say, well, why the hell am I not getting, getting free money for, for heating my home? Why is that not a thing for me?

So, yeah, I love the incentives align themselves. But anyways, I think I'm going to start rounding it out here. I love that topic. I love, again, like energy and Bitcoin. They are inseparable. And the world is just figuring it out. Lisa, yes. All right. I have a serious question, totally off topic. Is that okay? Yeah. All right. My question is for Mickey. When you get out of the service and you come full time into the Bitcoin world, will you be growing a beard? Yeah. I can actually, I'll tell you. pictures. So I actually grow a pretty fantastic beard. Did one in grad school. So I have the face of like a 15 year old boy right now.

But when I grow the beard out, I look like a like a leprechaun mountain man. Bitcoin changes you. I love it. That's awesome. Awesome. All right. Well, this has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed the chat. I like to do something before I finish out each episode. And that's just a quick round of any final thoughts that you may want to get off your chest. And then also, if you have it, any sort of a recommendation that you have for the people watching. And this could be really anything, something that's maybe caught your eye that you want people to check out. Maybe it's an article. Maybe it's a podcast or something that you've seen a news item. Or maybe it's like an app or a device or just a piece of advice that you'd like to

offer that you think people might find useful. terms of my final thoughts, yeah, I mean, there's much more innovation to come in the realm of Bitcoin, whether it be, you know, in scaling, things like what I was talking about, whether it be, you know, products like Jakes and things in and around custody, whether it be in and around the energy markets. There's just, there's so much that we don't even realize. And that will happen over the coming decade. And we'll look back at times like this and go, wow, how, how long? little we knew about where this thing would go, much like early stages of the internet where people didn't quite understand what they were dealing with. And I'm excited for those

moments to be able to look and to be able to look back on shows like this and see how right or wrong we were about the various things is going to be incredibly entertaining, at least for myself. In terms of a recommendation for you guys, I would recommend, actually I did a tutorial that I dropped the other day in and around the blocks from jade. So they've done some updates in and around the interface. And so if you've currently got a jade or you know, you're adding it to your arsenal of hardware, they added some new features where you can use it in QR scanning mode instead of like plugging it in directly or using Bluetooth.

And you can even like create your own little seeds that are scannable QR with the device itself doesn't even hire was a key. So lots of cool things there. So if you're curious about that and want to dive in, then there's a little weekend project for you. But Mickey, I'll toss to you. And any final thoughts that you wanted to wrap up with? And if you have a recommendation for anybody, then have that.

Yeah. So I think a lot of Bitcoiners are just super excited about Bitcoin, right? And they sort of try too hard to orange people sometimes. And it's sort of like completely guilty. My brother won't even speak to me about Bitcoin anymore. And so just like let it let it be known that you're sort of the guy or girl that they should be talking to. But sort of let them come to you, right? And so you just you got to meet them where they are because if you're shoving it down their throats,

They're not going to like it and just be open to different, you know, needs or concerns. So like I'm not an environmentalist by any means, but, but I'll sort of cover like environmental topics in Forbes because I think that's a massive Trojan horse that a lot of people care about. And so it's just, you know, things like that and stay open. And sort of the recommendation. So I have I have this hat, Bitcoin veterans. I have the shirt. And so it's a new podcast started by Alex Danzig, Shane Hazel, Mike Hobart, Gabe Lord, and Operation Libertas. And it's just sort of a bunch of veterans like shooting shit, talking about freedom and in Bitcoin.

And so like if you have any veteran friends, people in the military or service, something like that, yep, there it is. Yeah, just shoot it over to them. them they do they do weekly podcast uh you can you can hop in on on uh twitter spaces and you know ask questions or interact so yeah just you know support support the new pod support the bros bitcoin veterans love it awesome man well that's great uh Lisa I'll toss it to you as well final thoughts recommendations all yours I guess I have two final thoughts I thought Thought number one is just a thank you to everybody that's working on stuff that they're publishing. Thanks to Mickey for all the writing and to you, Ben, for putting out all of these videos.

I mean, these are fun chats, although I sort of think the best part of this. And I love the conversation, but like the chat part of this is rocked. I mean, like the stuff people have said and some of the ideas that have surfaced, we need to go back through here and mind this because those are awesome. But so shout out to you guys. Like if you're listening and you're on YouTube, take five minutes and just go subscribe or make sure that you're liking people's videos that you watch all the time because apparently it makes a difference.

I don't really understand how all that works, but I'm told it makes a difference and we love these guys. So let's support them. But beyond that, I would say what I alluded to earlier, you know, everybody's voice matters. So please use your voice for, you know, for the cause. Get on LinkedIn or get on Instagram or whatever it is that your social media is or host a coffee in your area. Like, just help spread the mission in a kind, respectful way if that's your audience, right? if like those are your people. If you're like somebody who wears a hoodie and, you know,

do it your way, right? Like everybody speak your language because we don't need to be saying the same thing. We don't need to be in an echo chamber. We need all of the fringe of the fringe uniting for this cause. So your voice matters. Use your voice. And I always respond to DMs on Twitter and on LinkedIn. So since I started my due job, I'll probably do less of these, but I probably five or six spots a week. I will offer up like 15-minute segments. I'll hop on a Zoom with you if you want to chat about Bitcoin or run a business idea by me or just like say hi, which is great, right? So please reach out and yeah, just thanks. Thanks to everybody that participated tonight. Awesome. That was great. I appreciate you both so much for coming out and hats off to Jake for making it out early morning in Melbourne, Australia. Yeah, what a fantastic chat. And to everybody that was in the chat, dropping the messages, I thoroughly enjoyed the back and forth between everybody and with the panel. And yeah, I appreciate you all. So Mickey, Lisa, thank you both so much for your time.

I appreciate you and you're both welcome back anytime. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Ben. Thanks. See you guys later. All right. And everybody, thank you so much for being a part of the show for being here. Again, what a blast. Of course, as always, if you want to help out the show, like, sub, share, all those things. They really do help a lot.

Hit that like button right below the screen and that will definitely help propel the show. you can hit up the previous mentioned sponsors down below. Hottle, Hottle, Coin Kite, Cedore, Nunchuck, and Start 9. They're all in these show notes. The other thing that actually I forgot to mention while they were both on, but Mickey did mention he's going to be in L.A. With his wife for Pacific Bitcoin, which I'm very excited for. Last time I saw Lisa there too, so maybe we'll be crossing past.

Lisa and her daughter Ella were both there. But Pacific Bitcoin, if you're coming, It's just around the corner. It's like just over a month from now. Anyways, I hope to see a bunch of you there. I'm very excited for it. October 5th and 6th in L.A. And you can grab tickets at PacificBitcoin.com.

If you want 21% off, use code sessions, which is helpful. And also the other big thing I'm very excited about is in L.A. After Pacific Bitcoin, the day after on the Saturday, October 7th, I'm doing my workshop series. So I'm going to be doing not one, but two workshops in the morning. I'm doing a Nunchuk and Tap Siner multi-sig workshop. So what we're going to be doing that. And that one is, number one, how the hell do you use Nunchuk wallet? Number two, how the hell do you use a tap signer? And number three, how do you use multiple tap signers with Nunchuk wallet to create a multi-sig wallet? We'll do all of that. So that'll be a fun one. And it's the first time ever running that

workshop. But then also, I'm bringing about the classic cold card deep dive workshop. I've done a handful of these. I've done them in LA last year for Pacific. I did it in Vancouver as well. And I did it in Miami for the Bitcoin conference there. And they sold out. So yeah, they, there was, especially the Miami one last year, there was not a free square foot of space in the room. It was completely full. So yeah, if you're going to be in LA, come join me. There are limited spaces available for each of these workshops, but it's all going to be on the Saturday, October 7th. You can find them really easily. Just head to bTCsessions.ca. Over on the right-hand side, there's the in-person workshops spot there. Or you can just head to my Twitter. It's my pinned tweet, and it has all

the information that you need about it. But I'm very excited to see people down there. It's going to be an absolute blast. And yeah, that's that. Anyways, guys, I'll stop my rambling here. Thank you guys so much for being here. And yeah, have a fantastic weekend. I'm Ben with the BTC sessions. And this, I'll see it for next time on your daily session.

And shout out, yellow. Thanks for being quiet all episode. I'll see you guys later.