BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Jan Wüstenfeld, Erik Dale, Chris From Seedor Demystify Their BTC Bullishness ep358

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS: https://twitter.com/coinjoined https://twitter.com/seedor_io https://twitter.com/EuroDale https://twitter.com/JanWues 💪 SUPPORT THE SHOW: Nunchuk Wallet and their Honey Badger plan is a best in class assisted mutisig setup with built-in inheritance planning and NO KYC. Check them out today! https://nunchuk.io/ SEEDOR is one of the most robust metal backups on the market today. Get your SEEDOR starter set today! Use this link for 5% off. https://www.seedor.io/discount/BTCSESSIONS?redirect=%2Fcollections%2Fprodukte For US based customers: https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/collections/hardware/products/seedor-safe-starter-set Start9 is your Bitcoin & lightning node, and full personal server - enabling you to take back control from the gatekeepers of your money and data! Grab Server Lite,One or Pro today and become truly self-sovereign! https://start9.com/   Coinkite offers the BEST Bitcoin hardware on the market. Use this link to get 5% off anything in their store: https://store.coinkite.com/promo/BTCSessions  HodlHodl is a NON-CUSTODIAL, NON-KYC solution to stack sats peer to peer! Buy and sell Bitcoin while maintaining privacy. Sign up and try it out today! https://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSION Free video tutorials not enough? Need some extra hand-holding when mastering self-custody, multisig, coinjoin, running a node, or other skills? Book me for a private session on my website! https://www.btcsessions.ca/ Been watching the show for a while? Like what you see? Help me cover my video costs by sending some sats over on my Geyser Fund page! https://geyser.fund/project/btcsessions

What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the show, another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish as my lovely wife passes me up here. So we are kicking it off. I'm still on the road. I am here in Italy. We just got down to Sicily yesterday. So we're just settling into the new place. Internet connection seems all right here. So I'm pleasantly surprised. Anyways, very excited for today's show. Again, we're coming at you live from Europe. So I get to have guests on that time zones wouldn't previously allow. So that's very exciting for me. We'll get everybody in here and we'll be live in a second. But of course, as I said, this is live.

So anything can happen. Who knows? Maybe my internet connection ends up being wonky later. But in those instances, I defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live.

I'll write it and we'll do it live. The fucking thing sucks. If you have not already, like, subscribe, share, all those things that really do help a ton getting this show in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. Before we bring in our guests, we'll take a quick look at where we are in the market right now. This is timechain calendar.com. Right now we're sitting at $29,290

per coin. A single U.S. dollar will pick you up 3,422 sats. In terms of fees, it looks like we're sitting at around 14 sats per byte for priority. If you're willing to wait a little bit, 10 sats per byte should do you. And in terms of Bitcoin mined, 19.4.4.5.5.5.5.5.5. And in terms of Bitcoin mined, 19.45 million of them, which is 92.61% of total supply have been mined. Shout out to sponsors of the show, hoddlehottle.com. If you're stacking sats and you've got some priorities in mind like no KYC, peer-to-peer trading, instant self-custody, it's the place to be. You head there, you sign in with nothing more than an email address.

Scroll down. Choose a currency, a payment method, and amounts. And you're going to be able to view offers immediately. They also have peer-to-peer lending in which nothing is ever rehire. Hippothecated. Check them out. Links are down below. Of course, when you stack some sats you're going to want to secure it with some of the best hardware on the market. Cold Card Mark 4 is my go-to. Love this device. But they do. Quinkite does a whole bunch of other awesome stuff that I use. Tap signers, sats card, block clock, open dimes, and come in really soon.

They've got the cold card Q1. That drops later this year. If you want to reserve it or check out anything else I mentioned, coincite.com. Use code BTC sessions for 5% off. uh new sponsor of the show in fact we have a guest on uh from cdor uh but these guys are awesome uh i got to meet uh well we'll intro in a moment but i got to meet uh these guys whilst in prague at btc prog and uh i got a i've got to tell you sold it to me pretty well um nonetheless one of the most robust steel backups on the market again the discs and the capsule and everything it's just super resilient to water, fire, corrosion, basically anything you can throw at it. And the starter pack, it comes with this massive mallet and everything and you stamp in your full seed words and you number them and everything.

It's robust as hell. I'm going to do a video on the actual setup of it when I get back across the pond. But look for that. Anyways, cedore.io, there's a link down below. You can also use CodePTC sessions for 5% off everything. And yeah, and Chris will be on the show today. So excited to have them. Now, I do want to say if you're looking to go beyond single sig and dive into multisig, nunchuk.io, has you covered?

Their assisted multi-sig known as HoneyBadger is awesome. I'm using it myself. Basically, you set it up on a mobile device with things like tap signer, cold card, whatever other hardware that you may like. Very simple to get set up. It has baked in inheritance planning. and then on top of it, the whole thing is no KYC. You don't need to give up your private information

to set it up and use it. So check him out in Unchuk.io. Last shout out of the show, Start 9, sovereign computing solution. You can host a whole bunch of different stuff on here. Like I do, you can host your Bitcoin stack. So Bitcoin Core, your lightning node, mempool.

That space. You can also host your own data, files, passwords, photos, Noster relays, Noster Clients, all kinds of great stuff. They have entry-level plug-and-play devices, and they have all the way up to what I'm hosting, which is the Start Server Pure,

which is a beast of a machine. So check them out, start9.com. Enough of my rambling, guys. Let's get the stars of the show in here. So I want a welcome to the show. We've got Eurodale. We've got Jan and we've got Chris. Gentlemen, welcome.

Thank you for being here. And I think a quick round of intros, who are you, what do you do, are in order? So I'll toss it to Eric first. Dude, welcome back. Can you give yourself an intro? Thank you so much for having me again, Ben. Thank you for the invitation.

So I'm Eurodale. I'm the organizer of the Northern Lightning Conference in Norway the last time, but a rotating conference around the Nordics. And I'm the host of Bitcoin for Breakfast, which is a Bitcoin podcast in Scandinavia that has recently started broadcasting in English. So a great opportunity perhaps to say to the English audience that we are now live in English. Yeah.

And then I raise three beautiful bitcoins. I guess those are my three main jobs. Awesome. Polish on Bitcoin babies. Glad to hear, man. And we got to hang out a little bit in Prague as well. You have much more energy than me in the early hours of the morning. I don't know how you do it.

Awesome. Jan, first time on the show. Thank you for volunteering to come on here. You were recommended by a good handful of people when I was asking. Could you give yourself an intro? Hi. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I'm Jan Wistenfeld.

For those who don't know me, my background is in economics. I'm currently in the last weeks, months of my PhD. So I'm planning to hand in my thesis end of September. and then hoping to start full-time in the Bitcoin space, likely somewhere in the area of research related to Bitcoin mining with Terra-Hash here in Germany. Currently, I'm more known in the Bitcoin space for macro research on-chain analysis.

But I feel like in the future, it's more valuable to do some research on how can Bitcoin market, be integrated in production processes, et cetera. Interesting. Awesome. Well, dude, I'm glad to have you. Again, thanks for coming on. And Chris, it's good to see you again.

I think the last time I saw you online would have been Swan did their... What was it again? It was... Hollywood Squares, Pacific Bitcoin, some kind of game show. I think it was your last day in Canada, and then you left for Europe because you were not awake at 2 a.m. I was not. You were a trooper for it.

What was the name that Neil kept on giving you? It was Fabio, but I tried to. Yeah, thanks, Neil. Matter of fact, I wear one of Neil's merch items just now. So shout out to Neil Jacobs and my favorite podcaster. But yeah, to introduce myself maybe to this. general audience my name's Chris I co-founded Sidor a nice brand that you just sponsored in the in the beginning and I'm building setskeeper and I'm also on the

advisory board of Tara Hatch which Jan just mentioned and yeah I think in this round Dale how's your German should we should be should be switched to language my German my German my German my German three years and my kids are going off in both of the school. I'm so screwed. I'm so screwed. I'll just let you guys take it from here. You've been here for weeks now, Ben. You must have picked up something. I know, I know. I've got to work on it. I have the cheat code of having kids that go to German schools.

Even though I've only been there for three years, I've been unusually exposed to the German educational system. Well, awesome. I'm, you know, I don't know that I'll be able to keep up with you guys, but I'll try. Either way, I'm glad to have you guys. Thank you all for coming on. Anybody tuning in that's unfamiliar with the show, this is Why Are We Bullish? Really simple premise to the show. Each one of us comes with a reason why we're bullish on Bitcoin. It could be anything. It doesn't have to be price related. In fact, I'd say on this show, it sometimes seldom is, depending on the guess, but it can be anything. It can be a news item. It can be a personal

experience. It can be a device. It could be an application, just something that you're currently excited about in Bitcoin. The flow of the show really simple. Somebody is going to get a chance to drop their reason why they're bullish, explain it, rant about it, whatever it may be. Number two, altogether, we're going to riff on that reason, discuss, questions, comments, whatever it may be. And then third, we're going to rotate to the next person until we've all had a term. So reason, riff, rotate, simple. I'm going to get us started today. really quick with my reason for being bullish here. And my reason for being bullish here is I often have these counterintuitive reasons for being bullish.

And I'm going to pull up an article here. And it was a piece of legislation that was just, that was just throwing through the Senate in the U.S. And it's not a favorable one. It's not one that's super great when it comes to, when it comes to Bitcoin privacy in particular. But more or less, it was a piece that just went through the Senate this week. And surprisingly, it involves,

Senator Cynthia Loomis, so those that are over here in Europe that have no idea who she is. She's been very favorable towards Bitcoin the last little bit. But, you know, she's been at a bunch of conferences. She's been present at a lot of things and has been lauded by a number of Bitcoiners as like a positive force for Bitcoin. And then another person that was part of this bill was Senator Elizabeth. Warren, who a lot of people will be familiar with as strictly like anti-Bitcoin, you know, hates it, doesn't want it to succeed, thinks it's a bunch of shadowy super coders that are just going to destroy the planet.

So you've got these two individuals and others as well that basically signed off on this bill. Now, this bill was actually just additional crap thrown into like another military budget, you know, national security kind of bill that was going through. But what they're trying to do is effectively they want AML, KYC, all of these like know your customer, take all this information to apply to things like wallet providers, anybody that is running lightning nodes, regular nodes, anybody that's basically anybody that has their hands on really anything to do with confirming, actually relaying, and miners, all of this stuff, they're basically trying to impose legacy rules upon Bitcoin.

Now, why the hell would I be bullish about this? I'm I'm bullish because I think the end game of this ends up being similar to the end game of the China ban on mining and what I mean is we're for while some may try to implement it we're we're in the midst of the world's kind of figuring out that Bitcoin answers to no one and I'm not saying that they won't try and make examples of people and and try and make it hard. But what I'm saying is at the end of the day or the week or the year or whatever it may be,

whatever the time frame is, Bitcoin is unaware of those laws and Bitcoin will continue to function. I do think that they can make it a huge pain in the ass for Bitcoiners in the interim and companies and all of the stuff. But I think that down the line, it's going to shine a light on the fact that governments can't control Bitcoin. If anything, the China ban on Bitcoin mining showed the world that you can't ban Bitcoin mining. Like 20% of the hash still in China, like at last check, at last I heard anyways. which means all of that stuff is just flying under the radar

and that people are just slipping money to anybody that comes up on a rural town using hydro that happens to have a big mining insulation. Like government is not able to get a handle on all that stuff. I think we're going to see something similar when it comes to, all right, all you wallet provider is better KYC every single person who downloads this thing off the app store. we're already starting to see people prep for stuff like this.

We're seeing kind of the, we're seeing people trying to make progressive web apps cool again. We're seeing projects like Mutiny Wallet come out and say like, hey, how about we don't make app stores a single point of failure? And I think you're going to see this. They also honed in a little bit on privacy. related software. They were talking about, like the whole thing was geared towards evil people money laundering, like all the terrorists and everything that are all using Bitcoin because

that's the only people that use it. That was a lot of the language around this bill. And so, I think, again, what we're going to see is point after point of you can't control Bitcoin. And on top of that, instead of being able to brush it off as, well, you know, that was, you know, that was China or that was just this country that tried to do it, whatever. Like when the U.S. tries to go after Bitcoin and it still doesn't work, that's when a lot of eyebrows go, oh, wow, this actually, this actually is government resistant. And so, yeah, I think that's kind of, we're at the beginning of that stage. I don't know how crazy the U.S. gets with this. I don't know if they just try to, it kind of seems like they're going through the kind of, quote, unquote, friendly regulation phase where they're going to say, this is okay,

as long as you do A, B, and C, instead of China just blanket saying this isn't allowed at all. I think the U.S., a lot of the regulators, they're at least recognized, like, oh, they'll be egg on our face if we just outright ban it. But I still think that it's not going to be overly successful trying to get people to stop using Bitcoin in a sovereign way. And as a call to action, anybody watching this show, I'm going to say you should learn how to use Bitcoin in as much of a sovereign way as possible,

whether it be obtaining non-KYC Bitcoin and having Bitcoin even if you do have some KYC corn, learn how to go about getting Bitcoin in a way where your name isn't in a database. Be familiar with that process so that if you need to use it, you can. Or maybe you just have a little nest egg off to the side that nobody knows about.

Learning how to use wallets, learning how to use wallets that maybe you didn't get on the app store, familiarizing yourself with that, hardware, all that kind of stuff. And then again, privacy services. It's worth learning how to use coin join and using other things like that. So nonetheless, I just wanted to kind of point out that I think we're in those early stages of people realizing that even the U.S. government cannot control Bitcoin. And that'll be exciting when that's common knowledge.

So I'm going to open it up to everybody for comments, wherever we want to take it. Number one, I guess I'll throw out there. Do you agree or do you worry that this could be much worse than I'm anticipating? It reminds me of sort of like a related argument about what, to use the classic American framing of what is money. The universal meeting of exchange is supposed to be exactly that. universal and there's supposed to be an absolutely no limit to our demand for it. So unless we put artificial obstacles in it, we always want more money. There is no limit to the demand for this one commodity.

So every time you set up some kind of attempt to increase surveillance or reduce privacy or introduce capital controls or in other ways try to put roadblocks up, whether it is to control your existing Fiat system and make it difficult people to lead that system, or if it is to make the difficult people to lead that system, or if it is to make Bitcoin hard and heavy to use, what you actually do is to make your own money less money so that the attack on Bitcoin, or this attempt to make Bitcoin difficult for people

actually just ends up applying to your own money. It's a bit like the argument against heavy regulation that's designed to attack the rich, when the rich are the only ones to actually have the resources to avoid the regulation, leading that regulation to only harm the poor. And it's sort of the same thing happening to money, that since Bitcoin has this capacity, in a sense,

to transcend local violence in the form of law and enforcement of it, it becomes, in a sense, this, this, the rich thing that is meant to be attacked, but in reality, the law or the attempt to attack it will only end up harming your own weak currency. Yeah, just not exactly the same argument, but definitely sort of the deadlines that I started thinking about from what you were saying. Yeah, I think this is just more, you know, old women yelling at clouds. This is, you know, I agree with you, Ben. So, yeah, I mean, what doesn't kill you make you stronger. And there is no such thing as bad press, you know, people start to notice.

Could you have imagined that Bitcoin would be such a big topic like four years ago that there's so many candidates now that are co-opting Bitcoin talking points that people desperately now, yeah, try to run legislation that, I mean, from a standpoint, like, it's not even feasible or practical. You can't, like in Germany, we would call a piece of legislation like this a Roqueapier translates to like, I don't know, a barrel burst, like something that is dead on arrival. Like, you can't, I mean, you don't, like shout us to Anna from Hoddle, Hoddle, your sponsor, get non-KyC, Bitcoin, just sign up with an email.

do UTXL management in your wallet. And what we've seen, as you mentioned, with the progressive web apps, recently with Wilkes-Seren with Damos, Apple said, oh, you can't have Saps anymore. And like he made one of the biggest companies in the world flinch because the power of these decentralized, ungovernable protocols is just so threatening to their model

that, you know, it's, you can't do anything against, that like China, they're still mining. Kuwait just now, like they had a similar pass of legislation. You can't have Bitcoin. I mean, it's a technology that's here to stay, and it's impossible to, yeah. Yeah.

I must say I agree with you guys. The first thing that came to mind for me was, like, how are they going to enforce this? I mean, of course, they can make it more difficult and, like, order app stores to only allow, KVC wallets on chain, but I mean in the end, it's like on chain and you can download whatever app you want on your computer laptop. And yeah, I'm not really seeing how they are going to enforce this. Maybe it would increase people using KYC wallets, which is in itself, of course,

bad because it makes traceability easier for governments, on-chain analysis companies. etc but yeah i'm not really seeing how they are going to enforce this long term and you also get this kind of game theoretical element going of course where whatever if you imagine sort of the birth of the internet that whatever nation decided that hey we're going to turn the internet into a directory where it's like limited exactly what you can access and so on obviously you then just don't set up the basic framework to be able to create the complexity that the internet was to become and so any nation that attempts this will just shoot themselves in the leg.

And even though that could be satisfying for a while, because of the information control you would achieve over time, you would see the smaller nations around you that just allowed for an open internet benefits so tremendously from that, that it does make any sense. And I don't think we saw many nations, at least in the West, make serious attempts in the first 20 years to stop relatively free internet from happening,

although that's happened later. Yeah. Yeah. What I'm wondering is, do we, Again, in a world where, you know, let's say this becomes kind of the pervasive technique where they say, if you want a Bitcoin wallet in the app store, then it's full K.C. Does this become kind of what we've seen with torrents versus, you know, streaming services where, you know, at first, you know, everybody was torrenting everything? and then Netflix comes along and everybody's kind of, okay, here's my credit card information. You know, I'll pay everything.

But then it kind of got to a point where now it's onerous for different reasons than Bitcoin would be onerous with these regulations. But, you know, it became, okay, well, now I've got, you know, Netflix and Disney Plus and Amazon Prime and Hulu and whatever the hell else streaming services. and now people are like, God, I'm just going to start torrenting again. Like is that where like people comply to a certain point and then it gets such a pain in the ass. It basically is legacy finance all over again. And then they say,

I'm just going to get a progressive web app and just use Bitcoin. Like is that the trajectory we're maybe on? What do you think? It's Evan Flow, I would say. Like as you mentioned, like we were pirates and then, oh, it's so much more convenient to news Netflix. and then they overdid it, and now you have the same amount, like, your cable bill before. If you have, like, 10 different streaming services and then maybe this, you know,

torrent doesn't look so bad now. But, yeah, I mean, the technology, like, people are not stupid, and they will decide to go with the get-away eventually. Like, there have been successful attempts of stifling in the technology in, like, certain parts. Like, we don't see North Korea being, like, at the forefront of the Internet development, But in general, like worldwide, I think there will be hubs. Those that adopt Bitcoin earlier will then have an advantage later on, as opposed to other countries that, you know.

Very few countries would argue that North Korea has been like successful as strain in the internet. They've been successful as strain in the internet. But as a result, they can be seen from space as a dark place. So it's like success is really like, okay, what is the thing that we're measuring success by here? Yes, they don't have good internet. But, yeah. It's subjective, yes, from Kim Jong-un's standpoint, quite successful. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Even though they are very advanced in Bitcoin hackability. Well, that kind of goes to the argument here, right? That, like, you can probably make Bitcoin really difficult to use in your jurisdiction and probably stifle all kinds of innovation and make it prosecute individuals and go to full nine yards, you know? But you are probably going to be visible from space in 50 years. Yeah. I mean, it'll be, yeah, I mean, you'll be able to see the, you know,

lightning network transaction graph and it'll just be the blank small. The black hole, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. That's probably not like what I would campaign on. Yeah. We mentioned earlier in the conversation here. I think, Chris, you brought up, you know, the number of politicians that are kind of like

using Bitcoin talking points to try and turn heads, get votes, all that kind of stuff. What I'm waiting for is when politicians are calling each other out over claiming to be Bitcoiners, but actually passing crap legislation in the background. When somebody says, you said you were into Bitcoin, but then you pass this K-Y-C-A-M-L crap. You're not a real maxi. Yeah. How more toxic than you are. I can't wait for people in Congress to debate PIPs.

Oh, you're against PIP 317. That's not congruent with my jurisdiction. That'll be great. Because right now it's just like, I like Bitcoin and then everybody, you know, yay. And, you know, there's a bunch of people celebrating. I, you know, I shouldn't say that. Famous Hodler admits he will sell at the million.

Yeah. The secret recording at a dinner party. political scandal yeah president Bobby Kennedy uses ledger yeah holds 25% tether

not even all in 50% is on exchange yeah yeah I love it yeah I think that'll be interesting I do think that there will be a degree of because so many people

are kind of throwing their hat in the ring of saying I think this is important to protect monetary sovereignty in some way, shape, or form. But I think it's only a matter of time before there's arguments over people saying that versus what they actually do. It'll be fun to get there because it'll be Bitcoin Twitter, but, you know, on C-SPAN or something. I mean, there is a historic analogy for exactly what should happen here. And as we pointed out, not just by me, but a bunch of other.

because before the parallels between Reformation and our own time. And when it comes to this point where it sort of goes mainstream, it's not like the Reformation became some kind of unified movement. In fact, they went for congregations and split into endless different interpretations of what this meant. The one thing they did agree on was that you didn't need a third party to negotiate your relationship with the truth. You can have a peer-to-peer relationship with God.

They basically agreed that you need a Bitcoin. You have a protocol for a peer-to-peer relationship with the truth, And then you can have a million other interpretations. And we never got a Protestant pope or something like this, right? There was no unified movement behind it. In a sense, like when we say, there was no Bitcoin community. That's kind of what we mean. It's just a bunch of different citadels, a bunch of different congregations.

So that might be like informative of what we can see. We can probably expect to see a lot of people share a unity over the notion that you don't need third parties to do these peer-to-peer transactions. But you may then see endless amounts of interpretations of what that means. epistemologically morally aesthetically we already see kind of these these splinters of of bitcoins of even just like focal points what people rally around like they've got all the privacy guys right like there's there's and there's the privacy wars uh you've got you know the like the lightning maxis everybody and then and then the like on-chain maxis where it's like no everything on chain every

you know, lightnings trash, like any sort of. And then you've got people that have like a nuanced view of tradeoffs that might want to use like an e-cash style system or might want to use liquid or things like that. And then others are like if it's not on chain or lightning and even just like you have these, I think you're going to have specializations of even when it comes to types of content in it or on Bitcoin because now it's a bit more difficult. to just say, I have a Bitcoin show or a Bitcoin newsletter. It's like, no, you need to specialize or have some sort of like unique, nuanced take on things or like be specific about privacy or lightning or layer two or mining or you're kind of seeing, Eric, like you're saying, like you're seeing this, this splintering within Bitcoin right now.

And I, yeah, I think that'll that'll further happen as, as people. come into Bitcoin, you're going to have the politicians that are like, yeah, we need sound money, but only if it's K-Y-C-A-M-L and backed it just backing the dollar because we want the dollar to be there, because that will never get rug pulled again. Yeah, I think all these citadils, though, they're helpful. Like, I mean, you mentioned like, oh, there's Vasabi and Samurai and Joint Market and all these things that there's a lot of infighting, but, um, there's this analogy where you have like this drum and you put like just rocks from your garden in and you put like some water and some grit and those rocks they they brush up against each other and then when you open the the barrel after like a day or so like you have like shiny polished pebbles that look much nicer because all of these ideas like there's always some some form of compromise that is then achieved and then the entire like ecosystem improves like there's so many ideas going around and i'm too far on the left bell curve to really contribute to that but i really like enjoy like reading all these twitter spats when people much much smarter than suggest stuff and then really nice ideas come along and yeah yeah that's no that's i i i think we'll be better for whatever happens again i think bitcoin as as a system and as an idea is too resilient to fall to um the the singular sect of pro bitcoin but

K Y C Y C-Y-C-A-M-L stooges that that will surely come down the pike. I think it will remain resilient. But there will be a subset of people that just, you know, to bow down and just go along with it. And they'll strictly stay within the confines of what they're told that they can do. And well, I mean, that doesn't affect the rest of us that decide to use Bitcoin as we always have. So there you go. You guys have Bitcoin? I don't.

Yeah. All right. I did lose. I mean, I was on a boat the other day. Yeah. There was an unfortunate accident. I'm right near the beach too. So what little I had left is gone as of this one.

We went for swim. Yeah, it was too bad. Anyways, gentlemen, let's do a rotation here. Let's keep things rolling. By the way, everybody in the chat. Thank you for being here. Shout out to Max. Max Trotter.

I see him in here from time to time and wanted to say hey and Rand of course. And then my long lost blonde-tipped brother, Nico from Simply Bitcoin was in the chat as well. We're still doing this show together while I'm on the road. But anyways, let's rotate through. I'm going to toss it to Eurodale and I'll cue you up. Why are you bullish, man? dude i don't know if you've heard but ben is in europe it's all over the news

and yeah the drums are chiming no you are in europe and that is in the sense just like the last the fact that you're doing a show from europe i think is really really good illustration of something i really felt on our continent in the last year there is so much stuff that's been suddenly starting to happen from we can first start with just the fact there are local meetups happening in pretty much every little town in every fucking country

in 27 languages, creating content and models and integrating with local histories and cultures and being in ways that you could just never happen in that American bubble. And that's like just exploded in the last year. That gets me super bullish. That has then led to a plethora of some of the best fucking

Bitcoin conferences on the planet. You and I were just in Prague together, which was incredibly impressive. What they pulled off in a year there, is world-class, easily up there with any other conference in the world. And that was just, in a sense, the latest in a series of conferences we've seen being built up from Oslo Freedom Forum, Baltic Honey Badger, we got Bitcoin 23 in Innsbruck, we got Lugano. The list just goes on and on.

I'm doing Northern Lightning up in Norway. And as far as I can see, it's just high quality all over. But at the same time, really distinctly and uniquely, European. conferences. So I see something's happening in this continent. And for a few years, the narrative around Bitcoin in Europe has been a bit negative. Like Europe is a lost cost for Bitcoin. We should also plan just to get out and follow Max and Stacey to a Sabador or some shit like this. And seeing this turnaround that there's a huge grassroots on this continent that is not about to give it up to some EU bureaucrats or some Putin warmong or some shit like this. We're here to build Europe

on Bitcoin and it's happening everywhere and that makes me bullish as fuck. So yeah. I agree with you on there because like your talk in Prague was amazing inspired me. The essence was Europe is too fucking nice to leave it to the tools. We have to fight for it and yeah, you can't all just leave for South America. Like Europe with Bitcoin will become great again. And shout out to to Martin and Matias to the conference. was amazing.

In this regard, I think 9th September, they have another conference, like a Czech-only conference in Ostrava, chain camps. And what they pulled off was really special. I mean, we got to meet each other there. And yeah. Yeah. So I'm also bullish that Ben made it to Europe. And if I can elaborate even more on this, like for me, being,

having sort of a based lifestyle or whatever, a lot of Bitcoin is take that on a very individual level. like what I eat and how do I relate to my family and so on. But like that is still on a very low time preference scale for me. Like we have to take in ancestry. We have to take in 10,000 years of evolution of language and everything that you are the pinnacle off and that you owe a enormous depth and gratitude too,

which is, you know, something where you are just this last little wrinkle on the tree of life. And this challenge is coming up and you're from this continent and the last edge of that life on this continent. So I feel responsibility to the past, to the ancestors, to the bones of their works, to sound all shamanistic about it. But we do always to people who have fought these battles and come up with all these concepts from human rights to individual liberties that we sort of pride ourselves on today

and consider to be part of our first principles. Like they came up with them, they fought for them, and we have the tool to defend them. So let's fucking do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, why not only spend what we have, but also establish a free money, something that we have not have yet.

Yes. I was going to echo your guys' sentiment on Prague. That was, I was so impressed with what was in Prague there. And, like, I mean, the venue in terms of, like, what they got on the stage there, like, the trade room floor. like I was impressed at the size, the quality, and the focus. And when I say the focus, I mean walking around the trade room floor, I was like, oh, there's sure to be some riffraff in here, like some garbage kind of shit coinie. I didn't really encounter that.

And I don't know if you guys did. But like walking around, I was kind of struck by the fact that there wasn't stuff that was just blatantly bad but that had money um and and and even the things that i you know kind of walked up to that you know i i i think i even i went up to there was somebody that had like nfc um like hardware kind of like hardware uh tiny thing um or the hammer no it was it was uh no it was like it was like an nfc um tap card type card type type thing. And they were talking about, oh, yeah, you know, this for Bitcoin, blah, blah, blah. And then the guy half, the guy half apologized for the fact that they could handle other,

other coins. He was kind of like, and you can all, you can also do shit coins on this thing. I was like kind of laughed because he like knew his audience I suppose but anyways like there the whole point is there wasn't a lot of riffraff there it was very focused it was very well done and I think they did an awesome job and again to to hats off to other European conferences Oslo Freedom Forum was incredible and you mentioned one that I'm I'm so sad I can't get to it this year but Baltic Honey Badger and again does put on by hoddle hoddle. but it's the time that I did go, it was incredible. I just, it's my daughter's first day of school at a new place. And I got, you know, family takes priority. Otherwise, I would be in Riga for it. And if anyone is curious what Chris means when he says he liked my speech in Prague, you'll get a second opportunity to hear me open a conference in Riga.

So come to Boilting Honey Badger to catch the follow up. It is, it is an author. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're incredible. And again, they've done Max and Anna, they're doing an awesome job getting that going. So anyways, highly recommend. I want to ask Yon his take on, again, Bitcoin in Europe. Are we seeing another renaissance here?

Are you bullish on European Bitcoiners? I'm very bullish on the Bitcoin community in Europe. I mean, if I think back two years, in the German-speaking area, we had the first time the Bitcoin Citadella, like a Bitcoin Conference. Of course, before, there were some Bitcoin meetups in some cities, but afterwards it literally exploded and now if I wanted to, I could go like every week somewhere in my area to some Bitcoin meetup.

And it's just amazing what has happened over the last two and a half years regarding the Bitcoin community and just a lot of people connecting. And yeah, so I'm very much, very bullish on what is going on in the community and what projects evolve from meetups, conferences, et cetera. So I get a message from some guy in Germany in the middle of June, asking if I want to join him for some Bitcoin camping trip. And it's on short notice, like a week before or something. So I figured like, okay, it's going to be him and his dog and wife or whatever, but I'm up

for a camping trip. So I say yes, right? I come out there and the big community is so strong that there's like a hundred families in a massive camping lot. They have bought two massive pigs that they are burning without like full roast. They haven't even cut that shit up. They're just roasting that thing. They have two fridges.

This is something I learned about Germans, by the way. It's a side track. They have two fridges. One for cold beer and then one on top for beer that had not yet turned cold. But that would keep there to not mix it up with the actual. cold beer. There were no fidges with food,

but we had the pig and the beer. Yeah, anyways, this was like 100 people at a conference or an event that brought people

from all over Germany, and even though it was such scale, I had never heard of it. That's how strong the community is. There's so much stuff going on that even

something of that scale just goes completely under the radar. It's just, they didn't even make a big deal out of it, and it's still got that many people

to show up in the middle of summer. So, that's wild. That is awesome. I got to give it a quick shout out to the Satoshi Spritz Roma

so I a bunch of Bitcoiners in Rome very last minute I asked if anybody was around in Rome because I was going to be there for a few days and I got some messages part of it also I was using orange pill app

for like local bitcoinsers in and around so I found a couple guys on there but anyways they invited me over to the they've got a telegram group and everything and um on super short notice like i i think it was like 15 20 guys came out and uh and we all just had some had some beverages and uh and hung out for the night just near where i was staying um right in in the middle of rome which was awesome so again to everybody that that came out and and uh everybody that kind of put that together thank you it was very short notice and i felt very welcomed and uh

Yeah, had had a few drinks and had some good food and it was a good time. So thanks, guys. And you made me bullish on European bitcoins as well. So I was glad to hear. Yeah. Again, Eric, a great, great topic. I think it's a microcosm of what's happening worldwide, right? it goes

it'll continue to proliferate everywhere and you're going to have these pockets that just kind of spread out until everywhere

has Bitcoiners and yeah so anyways I'll leave that there I'm going to do a rotation and again shout it to everybody watching

give it a share and everything but we're going to toss it down to Yon and I'm going to ask I'll just cue you up, really simple.

Jan, why are you bullish? Take it away. So I'm bullish on Bitcoin, mainly at the moment due to shifts and narratives around Bitcoin, which has started a little bit with BlackRock applying for an ETF, but mainly now around Bitcoin, energy mining, which has been represented very negatively in the media, etc. and I'm getting the feeling and we're seeing more and more also in some articles with more positive reporting that is not just negative like yeah Bitcoin is just consuming

a lot of energy but people start to see the benefits in grid balancing or if you have for example this landfills that emit a lot of methane gas which is highly damaging compared to CO2 for the atmosphere or climate. And yeah, like this week we saw a report by KPMG, one of the big four accounting companies, which was pretty positive on Bitcoin and ESG. And yeah, I feel like in the future, with more and more of this coming out, we'll see more positive reporting on that front and this will hopefully also convince people to look more into Bitcoin which now are like, no, I'm not going to look at Bitcoin because

it's like dirty and it's destroying the environment, boiling the oceans and yeah, it's quite really great to see that we see more developments there. Yesterday, Daniel Betten and really would they posted a chart that only 6% of CO2 emissions are mitigated by Bitcoin miners doing mining based on methane gas and that this might go up to 17% if let's the CH4 capital company by 10 year if they start employ more Bitcoin miners in that area and yeah I'm That's why I'm bullish on the future of Bitcoin here. That's awesome.

Daniel Batten has been posting a lot of great stuff as of late. But I mean, I'll maybe ask a question to Jan and everybody in the panel. But like I didn't have a very good understanding of energy and kind of even just how, how the grid works and how a grid is balanced before I got into Bitcoin. And Bitcoin makes you question a lot of things. It makes you question like what is in the first place. But it takes you down these other roads. And I had no idea that for a city,

you need to have a grid that's operating at maximum capacity at all times to avoid roving blackouts. I had no idea how that's how it worked. And that any of the energy that isn't active. used in those situations is just more or less wasted. There's a lot of learning that comes along with Bitcoin that is not specifically about Bitcoin. And I'm just curious, did you guys have a similar trajectory where you're like, I know nothing about energy?

And now it's in my best interest to understand energy. Like, where are you guys out with that? Oh, no. I was the exact opposite. I knew everything about energy. And then I discovered Bitcoin and discovered how complex the topic actually is. So now I realize that I know next to fucking nothing. But I suppose that is a reflection of the fact that I truly do know more about energy now that I did, thanks to Bitcoin, which does humble you.

Yeah. I agree. You become sort of like a generalist in many different areas. Like I'm a material scientist started out like the natural scientist approach. And I was fascinated by Bitcoin. And then you learned so much about economy and like the entire like you have. so many different topics that you have to have a grasp on before you even begin to understand how beautiful Bitcoin is.

And yes, that's why I, as you mentioned before, really appreciate the conversations that I have in those local Bitcoin meetups. Like maybe people that are listening to us now have not yet met Bitcoiners in real life, go out, find a meetup. If there is none, found a meetup. and then like talk to many different people and get like different points of use. And yeah, the way into the rabbit hole is different for each and every one of us, I think. Yeah.

It's interesting to see the narrative around Bitcoin's energy change how people think about energy. Because I think what I found a lot is that, you know, the tangential topics that matter to Bitcoin, Bitcoiners come to Bitcoin for whatever reason, and they start to realize kind of the truth about what these related topics are. And it's a slow process. Oh, the money's broken. Oh, crap. And then, you know, always in the back, you kind of hear, oh, but it uses so much energy. And the people that take the time to actually investigate that quickly realize like, oh, wow, this actually,

Bitcoin fixes this. And that trope actually rings true in a lot of instances. And I think right now you're seeing the Bitcoiners once again kind of understanding something prior to the rest of society. Bitcoin, the money is broken. A lot of people understood that when's the last, like prior to 2020, You rarely heard the term, if ever, fiat. Now it's, you hear it all the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's always, it's, now you hear it. Why do these bit corners hate us so much? Yeah. Yeah, but like, again, topics like, like inflation and monetary debasement and and fiat currencies, these were things that nobody ever really discussed or understood. And now it's becoming like, wow, like the money printer go Burmeme, that that's not a Bitcoin thing. Like, I mean, it is, but like it wasn't just bitcoins that rallied around that meet. And I think you're going to see that same proliferation of knowledge when it comes to energy where people are like, yeah, but, you know, just because we can get energy from from one thing or the other, like, what is the most efficient energy?

And like, you know, if you're worried about, if you're worried about emissions and what kind of emissions are they? And like, what is Bitcoin doing in that realm? And like, if what's the difference between plugging in my electric car and plugging in an S-19? Oh, it's on the same grid. What is the difference then? So, like, you know, that's, so I think there's going to be a lot of great questions that once again, Bitcoin brings to light for average people, down the line. It's going to be great. And I think it's generally

what you said, like Bitcoin is here again early, thinking about how mining can be used in certain instances. I mean, reality is if we are moving towards solar energy, wind energy, etc. We have a lot of

peaks. Then sometimes when demand is there, energy is not there, so we have to store energy, etc. and there are so many possible applications for Bitcoin mining and grid balancing, possibly grid stabilization, taking out excess energy, etc. And at the moment it seems like only Bitcoiners are working on that. And many people are not even in the space, not realizing in the energy space,

not realizing that there might be at least in parts a solution here to some of the issues that will arise in the future in energy production. Yeah. Shout out to Rand in the chat. He brought up gridless in Africa. Again, they're like places that, you know, they don't have like the name. They don't have a grid to connect to. And so in that instance where you're kind of cut off from everything, you know, and you have no energy, then getting electricity to people for the first time using a solar array or something like that locally in sub-Saharan Africa makes a whole lot of sense.

And then when you have access, you're also mining Bitcoin. You can basically build out that local grid and have a buyer of last resort before you actually build out other grid lines to local customers. And so that in those instances makes a ton of sense. But I mean, we only use like a tiny percentage of all of the energy that we produce worldwide. And the rest is waste. Like like high double digit. And like I'm talking about like I think it's like a third or less of all energy that's produced is used. And the rest is literally just lost.

And so like Bitcoin could literally, we could, we could, what, like 100x our energy consumption, it could all be waste energy. And it wouldn't have an effect on how much energy needs to be produced. It's wild. Yeah, I'm glad that, Jan, that you said, you kind of started with a macro focus, but you're also diving now down the energy rabbit hole and down the mining rabbit hole. and that's you're looking to kind of expand out to and focus in on that. And I think it speaks to the power of Bitcoin being able to expand and expand somebody's horizons,

which is fantastic. Yeah. With that, gentlemen, I'm going to do a final rotation here. Now, Eurodale, I know that you have a tap out happening. in a couple of minutes here. So as you do tap out, you can listen for a couple of minutes if you need to. No worries,

but I'll just give you a farewell before you do. And thanks for being part of the panel. I was glad to have you here and keep doing what you're doing. Do you want to say any final words before we dive into the last topic? Just the same thing, Ben. Thank you so much for having me

and keep doing what you're doing. You are fucking awesome. I'm going to stay and hear what Chris has to say, but I won't be able to partake in the conversation. So I'll just wave off when I've heard Chris's reason to be bullish this week. Awesome. All right. Well, Chris, there's your cue.

I'm going to set you up here. Why are you bullish, man? Yeah, so my reason for being bullish taps directly into this energy topic. Like just two days ago, we had our first advisory board meeting at TerraHash, which is a newly found think tank in Germany, where we have, as one of the biggest focus, is the energy topic in Bitcoin, because Bitcoin does not have an energy problem.

We generate like 170,000 terawatt hours of energy, and as you mentioned, like, a third of that is wasted anyways. Like, there's so much stranded energy, and it's only ever going to be more, and it's wrong to assume that we would ever, like, consume less energy. Like as society progresses, we need more energy, we need cheaper energy, and Bitcoin is such a driving force for that. And mining right now is done mostly in the United States, in Russia, Kazakhstan, China, and not really in Germany.

Because where I live here, I pay like over 40 cents a kilowatt hour. So I think mining the hash price right now is like at six, seven cents. It doesn't make that much sense for me to plug in like even an S9, like to, to heat an apartment. It's very difficult. But the founder of Tara Hage is a German businessman, and he has like a large company who's the manufacturer like injection molded plastic components. And he had the vision of using the stranded, the heat that is generated from these miners to, in his industrial processes. And he built like a megawatts photovoltaic array on this roof. and really put money where his mouth is

and started an energy laboratory where he's actively researching with a team of scientists the best ways to form this concept and then have sort of a black box that can be put into different, like, other companies to have utility companies in Germany, to have, like, other industrial processes

where, like, we have renewable energy, but sometimes on weekends, we do not manufacture any products, what do we do with this energy? Or we have like, we know how much energy we need. And if we were to build our photovoltaic array to that dimension, and then the sun doesn't shine, we have too little renewable energy and we have to buy something. But what if we build bigger and then account for that,

the peak loads, we can just grab off with like mining rigs? All these things, much more complex than I just portray them. I thought I knew how mining would work. But on Thursday, I toured the energy lab and talked to the guys there, and there are so many variables. Some you can't even control. Some, like, a lot of the research right now is in even figuring out precise data points, because what the manufacturer of an ant miner or what's minor tells you is not necessarily what kind of power draw it does. And there's like so many different things. But with TerraHash and Jan is also a representative of that brand,

we're trying to build this out in Germany and go to like utility companies and tell them, hey, give Bitcoin data centers a try. Because we learned very quickly mining, like they hang up. They don't want to hear that word. Bitcoin or data centers are the way to go. Is Bitcoin data center the blockchain term for this era term for this era, this epoch of Bitcoin? Like, will it?

It makes the pill go down easier. Yeah, maybe we have to package it in the Web 5. I don't know. That's interesting. But I mean, if you can get the message through, If you can, however you need to say it, if you can simply say, hey, you have an energy problem. You have an energy problem. And this solves it.

It doesn't matter what the hell it is. It solves like a major sticking point of, hey, we've got too much capacity and we're wasting, we're wasting energy. And it would be great if we had a buyer of last resort and now you do, right? Like that's what it solves. Yeah. So that is something that we learned or what Terra has is trying to achieve to be the first approach to these kind of industries. Because Bitcoin is, it's a teenager, it's 14 years old. It's like in its infancy and there is not, at least to my knowledge in Germany, any business that can tailor a solution to you or sell a bit of, mining in such a way that people with the means to build like a photo tag or like some some type of renewable energy source into the production process

that they would then go out and say oh let's start Bitcoin mining because they most of the time they're not yet Bitcoiners and they don't want to do like take care of those mining rigs or all those things but what they want to do is like a solution to their problem and this black box is definitely Bitcoin in our opinion and it just needs to be not only packaged nicely but executed well and we have like a great team like I don't know why I'm on the advisory board like this I'm really heavy hit it's like Holger Wolf and Alex from Frankenberger like they manage with their like high-tech founders like it's a private public venture that funds like in the hundreds of millions

of different startups and like holga Wolf has like a big software company so TerraHash tries to solve like finding a product that is packaged nice. You have the software, you have the architecture, like the entire product is then able to be transposed into like certain different industries. And that's what we do. And yesterday was the first kickoff meeting and I'm so bullish and I'm really excited not only for, yeah, Germany, but like the general future of Bitcoin and how it can fix certain things. maybe everything.

Yon, I've got a question for you. So I've heard a few people say that eventually energy companies just become Bitcoin companies or vice versa Bitcoin miners just become energy companies. Do you think that will be true? do you think that this division right now of oh we're we're an energy producer and then we get mine like a mining company to be our solution or or vice versa or do you think that one kind of just becomes the other or is it going to be a mix of both like if you had to guess what trajectory do you think we're on that's that's a good question how to answer but um i think in

long run it makes sense that energy companies start to deal more with Bitcoin mining and start using that in one way or the other in the energy grids particularly if we long run want to go more like also decentralized on energy production and then you have more like the local peaks and demands of energy so I think at least to some extent it makes sense that companies merge or as you said, Bitcoin mining companies become energy companies. Yeah. Yeah. Or acquire energy companies.

All that way around, yeah. In the future. They'll acquire the ones that refuse to get Bitcoin data centers, right? Yeah. In the future, we either buy Bitcoin or we mine it. Like, there will be huddlers and there will be people that actively mine it. And there's going to be some arbitrage in between. that energy companies will probably be the first to really jump onto that because we have so much

potential and renewable energy like the sun will never shine at night like there will be peaks yeah and it's like in Germany when we have a lot of peaks we are shutting down energy supply and those guys running the windmills or solar farms they then get compensated by by the government because they had to shut down. And I mean, it's insane. Like last year alone, it's crazy. They like, two years ago, like in 2021, like Germany or German taxpayers paid over 800 million euros for wind turbines to be still.

Like they're not generating energy. We even paid them. And it was in 2021 when like energy prices were like sort of okay then. Since then they've risen by like 30, 40 percent. So like I expect those numbers from last year to be even higher. And it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. You can't have a data center there because you need like a internet connection and

Germany doesn't have that. I can guarantee you that. But Bitcoin mining, like with the phone, you can like create a valid nonsense and the blog like just put like a Bitcoin miner in a localized wind farm. Yeah. The big question there remains still at least for me that miners have to run for a certain time to be profitable and that's for me a bit open for discussion in what instances it really works like um but uh yeah certainly in that area it might be a solution interesting yeah i'm

and i'm wondering i mean i get the feeling that that the most the most kind of open free marketplaces will hone in on this first. But we are seeing, you know, some of that, some of the opposite of that in places like El Salvador where, you know, you have an administration that has recognized Bitcoin. So I'm curious, like, if places like that also become, like, there's obviously a lot of scrutiny there still globally.

but like how it a little bit amazes me when when you can just bring up the numbers from the people that have done it so far and to not have literally everyone doing it already. Like if you have waste energy, I'm kind of dumbfounded that you wouldn't just start rolling out programs like this right away, that it took. 14 years to kind of even notice for a lot of people. And I mean, it's still very early stages of this. But like how much positive information do you think a lot of these energy companies need to see? Because I mean, you guys are saying that you can't even say the word mining. And even though you can show data and be like, this is what it's doing. What needs to happen here?

Yeah, right now the topic is tainted a little bit because there's a lot of fun in the media. But you can see like the sentiment, the connotations, they are changing as soon as like Fidelity BlackRock and all those big funds who have a lot of media outlets probably in their pockets through one way or another. And suddenly they publish much more nuanced articles about Bitcoin that will change. But those that don't need to have a newspaper article tell them that those people, they will be earlier and they will beat them to the punch and then figure this out. And it's not that easy. Like there are a lot of different numbers.

Like we are crunching them at Terahash as we speak because as Jan said, minors have to run a certain percentage for this to be profitable. But all those things can be figured out and are being figured out. and whoever comes first will win. And I think what Harris is doing now, and if we can prove that under certain conditions, Bitcoin money makes sense, and the more and more of those projects are implemented in the real world, and we can show like, hey, it actually works,

and it makes sense to at least look at it, even for a big energy company, I think that's important, like to bring out the data, show real world examples that work, because then they might actually be convinced to at least look at it and then think about if that's something for them to implement. The first rule of film school show, don't tell if you build it, they will come. You can, like, once this starts rolling, and that's, again, why we're bullish in Germany. exactly awesome all right well gentlemen i'm going to start rounding out here uh what i'd like to do

just and i would do this every show um near the end just i like to get a quick round of any final thoughts anything that you didn't get to get off your chest um and then also uh a recommendation and so when i say recommendation it could really be anything um it could be uh if you have like a a video or a podcast or a book or, you know, an article or even when it comes down to an app or something to try or just a bit of advice from a personal experience. Anything that you think might be useful for people watching that you'd like to throw out there. I will, I'll go first. So I give you guys a second to think.

But in terms of final thoughts, again, when it when it, comes to Eric's earlier topic and chatting with you guys over here in Europe. To me, my final thought is that Bitcoin is proliferating in these

cool little pockets everywhere. And we're seeing more and more of it. Like Eric was saying, there's a meetup everywhere. There's people everywhere now and every corner of the globe. but I can just kind of walk into whatever city or town and probably find a good handful of Bitcoiners

that I can chat with. And we're seeing that also in industry, like energy. We're seeing that kind of all over the place in politics. And Bitcoin is just kind of, it's planting these little flags everywhere and then spreading from there. And there's been no shortage of seeing that while I've been on my travels.

And that's exciting to me. In terms of recommendations, I'm going to go back to my earlier topic of how we're in the early stages of finding out that even the U.S. government can't control Bitcoin. My call to action for everybody, that's going to be my recommendation is once again, go out there and learn how to be a little bit more self-suffer. sovereign. So figure out where you're at right now. Hopefully you're self-custing Bitcoin and you maybe have a device that you use for cold storage. If you're there, fantastic. And then maybe look at what next steps are. So maybe you don't like the idea of somebody telling you that you

have Bitcoin and confirming all your transactions for you. So your next step might be looking into running your own node. Or maybe you don't like the idea. idea of not having privacy while maybe look into using coin join or some other privacy tool. Whatever it may be, look towards the next steps in your Bitcoin learning journey, run a node, verify your own transactions, use tools that allow you to transact freely, learn how to download a Bitcoin wallet that isn't on the app store, things like that. You can always level up a little tidbit of knowledge to make you state resistant, we'll say. Anyways, that's going to be my recommendation.

So I'll toss it down the line again, gentlemen, whether it be final thought, recommendation, whatever you got, throw it at me. I'll toss it to you on first. Any final thoughts? Anything you'd like to toss for people to check out? Final thought. We already ate that topic, community. So just go out there, meet Bitcoiners in person. Yes, Twitter is great.

You get a lot of information, but very often it's only the very extreme opinions. And so I can only recommend to go out there, seek a meet up, meet with people. And it's very nice chatting to Bitcoiners and exchange ideas. It's very productive. And yeah. And besides that, going back to my top. I would recommend checking all the articles by Daniel Betten on Bitcoin mining and energy. It's very interesting and might also help you if you're confronted with someone

skeptical about Bitcoin and energy consumption just to give some arguments why it maybe is not so bad beyond it's fine if it's waste in energy because it's worth it. Awesome. And for people looking for Daniel Batten, his Twitter handle is at DSBATT-E-N. So, DS-B-A-T-T-E-N. You can find articles and all those information there. So awesome. Thanks, thanks, John.

Chris, I'll toss it to you as well. Final thoughts, recommendations. Go ahead. Yeah, recommendations. Get your coins into self-custody. The more people that are in self-custody and don't leave their corn on some exchange. we will get closer to the true price of Bitcoin. And don't sell your Bitcoin to Michael Saylor.

He has enough. And if you are out there, if you are a business owner, or if you know somebody who is like a business owner and he has like the intention of building out like a renewable energy source and willing to take a chance, approach us at terrahash.spase, send us an email. We read them all and we'll have a look if we can maybe integrate a Bitcoin data center in your facility. Yeah, absolutely.

That's awesome. I love to hear it. Where can people find Terahash? Terahash.space is the website or Terahash underscore space on Twitter. Cool. Awesome. All right. Well, awesome, guys.

Thank you both so much for being here and a hat tip to Eurodale for joining us as well. I appreciate the conversation. It was a lot of fun. Thanks to everybody that's in the chat. And gentlemen, you're welcome back anytime. have a great rest of your evening. You too. Thanks for having us.

Check out between two A6. Awesome. All right. See you guys later. All right. Everybody, thank you so much for being here. Of course, if you can, like, subscribe, share, all those things.

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You pay for streaming. Help me with hardware. All that kind of stuff that helps me run the show. And much appreciated for everybody that hops over there and does. that. Anyways, guys, I'm going to wrap up here. Thank you guys so much again for being here. Have a wonderful weekend. I'm sure I will be seeing you soon. And the news will be coming at you tomorrow. I've had a shift in schedule, of course, with being overseas and coordinating with Nigo. But we still have the news coming to you tomorrow as well. Anyways, guys,

have a great evening wherever you may be. See you guys next time for your daily session. Poddle their bits. No.