BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Jane Adams, Dennis Porter, Julian Figueroa ep283

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? I am still remote. I'm on the other side of the ocean. I'm over here in Bia Ritz, France for the surfing Bitcoin conference. It is midnight here. But screw it. We're doing it anyways. We're still here. We're still doing the show. And I've got awesome guests, super excited. I am a few beverages deep. I just went to a pleb barbecue here. I've met a lot of the the bitcoins here in France and they are awesome and have been so accommodative and wonderful. So shout out to all of the French bickcorner plebs that I've met here. You guys are awesome and thanks for having me. But of course, we're going to get into the show. Of course, this is live. I'm in a hotel. The internet connection is whatever.

So anything can happen. So as always and especially now, I defer to my. friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live. I can, I'll write it and we'll do it live.

And thing sucks! If you haven't already, like, subscribe, share, all those things are super important. They help get more eyeballs on this content. I am Ben with the BTC Sessions and this is your daily session. Toddled the Bitcoin. Before we bring in our guests, of course, uh, shout out to Actually, let's take a look at where we're on the markets right now. $20,654 per coin.

A single US dollar will pick you up. 4,000, what is that? 842 sats. 91.1% of all Bitcoin have been mined. And in terms of fees, we're looking at around 12 sats per byte for next block. Anything beyond that, honestly, one sat per byte will do you. So ideal time to be adding channels, coin joining, all that good stuff. Shout out to sponsor the show.

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keeping that thing safe. So Bill Fottle over at privacyprose.i-o. And with that, I'm going to stop my rambling. We're going to get in the important people here. We've got Dennis. We've got Julian over at kinetic finance. And we've got Jane Adams. Thank you, everybody, for being here.

I appreciate your time. Very excited to have you all. I think it's high time we do a quick round of intros. Who are you and what do you do? So Dennis, I'll toss it to you first. Can you give yourself a little intro? Yeah, sure, happy to you. Thanks for having us on again, myself on again.

Ben, always good to see you. I won't be joining you in the drinking quite yet. It's only 3 p.m. here on the Pacific Coast. So soon, sir, though, I'll be pouring one out for you at that time. But yeah, my name is Dennis Porter. I am the CEO and co-founder of Satuichi Action Fund. It's a 501C4 nonprofit that is built to go on the offense for Bitcoin miners. We advocate for Bitcoin miners for a podcast.

for policymakers and regulators to get them on board with it. And then we tell them if they like all the benefits of Bitcoin mining that we have educated them on, we hand a model policy that we've crafted in-house. Some of that we plan on releasing later this year to open source it a little bit. Very excited about it, the opportunity to do something awesome for Bitcoin,

Bitcoin mining in the U.S. and Canada as well. Awesome. Well, dude, I'm glad to have you here. Obviously, yellow. I see him in the chat and he's a huge friend. and fan of you. So he's here and he says Yellow is here on time. Do not be afraid.

And I'm glad that you gave him a shout out for a cordano. Yeah, welcome, welcome, Yellow. But let's do a rotation. Jane, thank you so much for being here. First time addition to the show. Can you let people know who you are and what you do? Yeah, my name's Jane Adams. I ran for Congress this last election cycle.

And it was mainly to raise awareness for Bitcoin. digital currencies, CBDCs that the government is really looking to implement here in the States and all over the world. And also, I'm a political activist and I work all over the country on different issues, mostly independence-based like energy independence. And also lately I've been getting into seeing what movements we have going for Bitcoin mining on renewable energy. Awesome. Awesome. Well, that's interesting because I love the marriage. of Bitcoin and energy. And I think it's very interesting, some of the topics that we can dive into there. So we'll get into that, I'm sure. But let's do one last rotation here at Julian with

Kinetic Finance. Good to have you, man. We had a little chat recently, and you had me on your show. But I'm glad to have you here. So can you, for those unfamiliar, introduce yourself. Yeah, my name's Julian. I run a channel, Twitter, YouTube, wherever you find it called Kinetic Finance. And I just really love talking about money. I read all the books that you guys Well, not all of them, but I'm getting there. All the good books, Bitcoin Standard, all that. And I really wanted to just start teaching about it in my own way.

I'm a big filmmaker. So, yeah, just the mission every day is just teach more people about Bitcoin and different and fun ways that have maybe not been done before. Awesome. Well, I'm very glad to have you all. Everybody watching. Thank you for being here. Those unfamiliar, this is Why Are We Bullish?

And so very simple format to the show. we go by the three R's. And so first, somebody's going to bring a reason why they are bullish, whatever that may be. It can be a personal experience, an application, a device, a news story. It doesn't matter. But somebody's going to bring a reason why they're bullish. Then all together, we're going to riff on that reason. And then we're going to rotate to the next person until we each all get the term to get our reasons off our chest.

And so that's the flow. I'm going to kick us off today. And my reason springs forth from where I am right now. So I'm in France and I'm here for an event called surfing Bitcoin. And funny enough, I was headed over here and there's a handful of people from France. And they were like, it's pretty shit coiny over here, man. Just so you know, it's pretty shit coiny. They're pretty like, they're into all of the crypto.

defy web 3 like just any any buzzwords they'll buy it and and so i came over thinking like okay well you know this is what it is we'll we'll we'll see but but i knew that there were some good some good uh bit coiners here as well and there were some good bitcoins coming to talk and i thought it was a good idea to kind of um get things rolling over here and and i got here and yes there's there's that element but there's also just this solid group of excellent bitcoinsers here that have come together and just the realists in the audience that are that are saying hey like in you know maybe the buzzwords you're being fed aren't necessarily having any you need to question things a little bit deeper and and i get here and there's a lot of really smart people that have thought through things

There's a lot of creating solid French content that is Bitcoin specific and sets out to kind of differentiate between crypto and Bitcoin. I've also seen just about every piece of reading material you could imagine that is excellent Bitcoin material that's been translated to French. So I'm looking through the bookstore here at the event and I see, you know, books by Safedine. I'm seeing Gigi's 21 lessons. I'm seeing Jeff Booth's Price of Tomorrow, like all of it just translated into full French versions sitting there ready for consumption. I'm seeing everybody's like, yo, you got to meet, you got to meet this guy. He's like, he's the French you. And there's this guy and he's doing Bitcoin tutorials.

but like way far and beyond like what I've done in in Canada. And so he's got like he's got full on like free courses on economics and like the nuts and bolts of using the technicals of Bitcoin. He's got he's just got everything going. He's got a team built and it's so well organized and I'm just me. I'm like, oh, no, this isn't I'm, he's not the French me. I'm like the English him waiting to come up to that level. And so what I'm seeing here is this swell of rationalism and the swell of excellent Bitcoin-focused content. And the last time I felt this way at an event would have been Bitcoin 2019.

And the reason I say that is it's the first. time that I went to an event and I realized that there was actually a swell of people that agreed that Bitcoin was the thing that made sense. Because prior, there haven't really been, you know, what we know is Bitcoin maximalism today or Bitcoin rationalists or Bitcoin minimalist or whatever you want to refer to it as, people that have decided that Bitcoin tends to make sense and the rest tends to not in a lot of instances. And at Bitcoin 2019, I kind of, I was like, oh, this is a thing. This is a conclusion that not just myself, but many other people have come to through a careful, rational

thought process that they've arrived at while Bitcoin is is kind of the thing and everything else is making massive tradeoffs to achieve whatever they've implemented. And I see that here. And it feels like the early stages of what I saw in 2019, kind of in North America, just starting to well up here. Because they're getting access to the content. They're getting access to the kind of stuff that I saw in 2019. But I think it's going to have it faster. And I would not be surprised to come back here in three years and see an incredibly built out Bitcoin-centric community that is, just accessible to all and helping newcomers decipher the influx of noise that they experience when they come into the quote unquote crypto space for the first time. So this is what I'm excited right now is I'm seeing the early stages of what I saw

at home a few years ago happening in jurisdictions with different languages. And I firmly believe that it's just a matter of getting that educational material out to the masses in accessible in different languages to have this kind of message proliferate and allow people to sort through everything in their minds and come to their own conclusions and be presented with clarity of thought. So I'm excited about that. I'm going to open it up to you guys and I'm going to say, I guess I'll kind of, you can go with it however you see fit, but I'll say, what are,

some of the things that helped you kind of come to your current position in where you are as what you think about Bitcoin. And what would you like to see more of that you think could help people either at home or in other jurisdictions sort through the noise that they experience when they first enter the space. So whoever wants to dive in, whoever says something to say, feel free. Have it. I just want to know, though, I'll be extremely bullish when the French version of you has the same hair style. Then we know Bitcoin is taken over. Let them down before I leave here. One comment I have there really just is like people I think undervalue timing and like getting into the marketplace. Like don't discredit yourself.

First of all, by the way, I think you're one of the best podcasters in the Bitcoin space. And you've done an incredible job educating countless people and you know, you make great material. But like you're saying like this guy is better than you. But he's starting. started later. This is kind of one of the main reasons why I always tell people to get into Bitcoin and start working in Bitcoin, start doing something in the space because someone that's better than you could come along and it's going to take them so much more work to overcome the timing that you put in, the time that you put into the Bitcoin space. So I just think that the same thing is to be said about anyone. If you're looking at the Bitcoin space and you're like, man, how do I

get in? How do I start working? How do I start doing cool stuff like Ben or Jane or Julian? Like, how do I get active? Like just start doing it. stuff and like you'll find your, we'll find a path. Like there's always a path forward. There's so much opportunity. The space is so new. You could be the French, the German, the British version of Ben. There's still plenty of places left open to take.

Yeah. Be your own thing though. Be your original. Don't do the hair, okay guys? Trademark. Trademark. Yeah. How about Jane or Julian? What do you guys' thoughts on topic at hand? Well, I can

go first. I'm very bullish on Bitcoin for many reasons. I think it's a human rights movement. I think it allows people to decide their own destiny for people to make sure their money is being spent how they want it to be instead of going to our corporate Congress and completely being wasted. We're in a huge deficit and it needs to stop. I think the Federal Reserve are a pack of criminals, a banking cartel. And this is our way to get out of that system. Awesome. Julian.

Yeah. I mean, Ben, I would say that, like, if anything, you and a lot of the other people that either inspired you or you inspired,

you guys underestimate how much of an impact that you have with Bitcoin. Because people don't arrive at the space all watching the same guy, right? Or same woman. I mean, I watched a lot of Andreas Antonopoulos back when I first got into Bitcoin. But that, as great of a teacher as he is,

is that's not what made me become so Bitcoin focused. It took all the way up to Michael Saylor and his way of explaining things and his podcast tours and his analogies of energy and all that. And then it finally clicked. You can read all these books and stuff. But eventually you just find something and someone that speaks to you. And as this movement grows, we have more and more people that get to enter the arena. And we talked about this when we did our interview about now it's grown to the point that if you want to be a Bitcoin educator, you go out and make your niche for it. You know, don't just like recite the news or or do the same tutorial everyone else is doing. Like, you can put a spin on things. I'll take this opportunity to like shout out a couple

people I really love in the Bitcoin space that are not massive creators, but like they will be if they keep doing what they're doing. Mike Young, I think his name is, he does these great on the street videos where he just like ask people about Bitcoin and like that type of content really gets people into it. Paco de la India, I started following him lately. He's been traveling to like 40 different countries and going to all these Bitcoin meetups and trying to live off of Bitcoin as he travels. I think there's a huge intersection between people who travel for a living in Bitcoin because, you know, if you find the right places, it's the only currency you can usually spend while traveling like 40 countries in a year.

But yeah, there's a whole bunch of people that just keep coming to this space and that, you know, that's what makes me bullish. So I think you're 100% right. As you go to these meetups, you meet more of these people and, you know, casual viewers like I was for a long time ago and they get inspired to just make. and teach. And I think that's awesome. Yeah. Hey, Jane, I was going to ask you, so what have been some of your influences in terms of as you've been learning about Bitcoin, what resources have you found have been super helpful to your kind of Bitcoin journey? So let me start off by saying

I haven't been on social media for five years. So when I was good for you. I think that's an accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah, I just completely forgot about it. And so when I read to run for Congress, my friend said, you have to get on the internet, you have to get on Twitter. And so I got online and I sent out a few tweets and some of them went viral. And that's when I realized this is an issue

people really want to talk about. And so I'm still learning how to become a content creator. But a lot of the influence I got was going into Twitter spaces and talking to Bitcoiners and getting getting information on what they like about it, how they learned about it, do they use it, how often, and do they think people should use it for everyday circumstances or if they should save it? And everybody has different stories, everybody has different opinions. It's a community, but in the sense it's almost individualism because everybody has completely different opinions about it. And to be able to hear all of them is very inspiring and motivational.

on. Yeah. Well, again, like it's kind of gets to the crux of nobody can tell you how to use your Bitcoin. Like it's it's the fruits of your labor. And that's kind of the part of the battle is, is you should get to do with the fruits of your labor as you see fit. And part of that is not having it, it siphoned away by a mechanism which debases your, you know, your labor over time, right? Like you, you basically, there's a, there's a, uh, uh, an unsaid contract where you have an understanding of what money currently buys and you exchange your time for that set amount of dollars. But if you wait too long, that contract is null and void. Because what you're understanding of what that time will purchase, uh, withers away if it has a shelf life. Um,

and so yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. Like, it's, Everybody has their own opinion about how that should work. But at the end of the day, it's the individual's choice. What are you going to do with the fruits of your labor? And that should be totally up to the individual as to where they see fit to place their value. So, yeah, I love that point. Ben, I think one of the things you mentioned is how you're liking that when you go to these Bitcoin meetups and stuff, you're seeing a lot of people that just get fast-tracked into Bitcoin and they don't go to all these shit coins.

I mean, there are, you know, parties that enter. Bitcoin through shit cornering, but you're finding a lot of people that go direct to it. And I think a large part of that is because the conversation that gets people in Bitcoin now is just questioning money versus like before COVID, people didn't have that conversation because we didn't have, you know, super obvious inflation and really weird things going on with like monetary policy. People got into Bitcoin, you know, 2010 to 2019, for the most part, over speculation. And now it's just like, I'm getting into it because I'm interested about like what is money to begin with. So I think that's why you I think this is how the community actually accelerates is

because you skip the whole speculation part with Bitcoin and you get straight into like the why of money. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's definitely you get to leapfrog a lot of the and and it presents like this whole world of not thinking you're getting the theme fiat mindset of short term thinking of why I want to make a quick buck. So I I can buy a Lambo. So, you know, like that's the typical, oh, I want, I want to win the lottery so I can buy the following things. And it's not the, you know, I want to be happy.

I want to be healthy. I want to have a family. I want to save for generations. You know, I want to have something that when I'm on my deathbed, I feel like I've accomplished something in life. And I have generations of family members that can grow and make the world a better place with each coming generation after them. That hasn't been a prevalent mindset because in a Fiat world, you can't plan for the future.

You can barely plan for paycheck to paycheck. And it changes that dynamic, which is, again, miraculous when you're coming from the prior system that we're existing in right now. So, awesome. Well, I don't want to take up too much time with my topic in particular. So I'm going to round that one out. I will say that for the... the comment I brought it up earlier, but it's Narwhal tacos in the comments.

Nobody's judging you. You buy all the Nicholas Cage pillowcases. You want. Bitcoin does fix this. I respect you decision. If you have extras, send me one because Nicholas Cage is a legend. I appreciate that. But with that, we're going to do a rotation.

And I'm going to toss it over to Dennis. And Dennis, I'm going to let you have a little rent. And I'm going to let you fill myself in the panel in. on why you're bullish. So take it away, man. Yeah. Thank you. I'm, you know, always been very, very bullish on Bitcoin,

but I have become increasingly bullish on Bitcoin mining over the last, I would say a year or so, you know, I've always been a big fan of Bitcoin miners. I mean, even Bitcoin mining, I have some of my own old S-9s behind me. You know, I really was fascinated by the ability to connect the digital world to the physical world through proof of work. And I used to think, you know, my political work needs to be aimed at defending this critical link because, you know, proof of work and Bitcoin mining are really important.

But now I've come to, because of my studying and my research around Bitcoin mining, come to appreciate it for so much more and have started using it as a way to like orange pill people on a regular basis. Because as we were talking about earlier, it's like when you try to share it with someone that they need Bitcoin, it's very difficult to explain, you know, that their current. sucks and that they need this other asset, you know, especially in Western civilizations, it can be a difficult conversation to have. You know, they kind of get it. They get it a little bit, but they're not hurting yet. Obviously, there's, that could change very soon here in the United States or in other first world countries very rapidly. But one of the things that has been really interesting is to talk to people about the benefits of Bitcoin mining. I've been sharing how Bitcoin mining can bring high paying jobs. It can bring grid infrastructure. It can bring

grid infrastructure investment. It can enhance renewables. It can stabilize the grid and it can clean up the environment. And when I say that to people, they're just like, wait, what? Like, I didn't know Bitcoin mining can do those things. Like they get shocked. And because they're so surprised, you were immediately able to jump into conversations around Bitcoin mining and the potential for it to bring a lot of benefits to the U.S.

and the rest of the world. You know me. I'm a political guy. So I talked to a lot of policymakers and regulators. And so one of the things I tend to highlight. and that I'm extremely really, really getting bullish about is the potential for Bitcoin mining to clean up the environment. And what I mean by that is Bitcoin mining, you know, as we all know, is location agnostic.

It goes wherever the energy is at. It doesn't care where it is. And there's a lot of methane all over the planet that is being emitted into the atmosphere. It's not being vented. It's not being flared. So this isn't like an oil and gas operation, which, you know, is great that I love that the Bitcoin miners are coming in and more efficiently burning methane into carbon dioxide and taking that wasted energy and turning it into something of value. But you can go to orphaned oil wells,

which are these wells that are essentially in the middle of nowhere, oftentimes were abandoned and are in the custody of the state. You can also go to landfills. You can go to agriculture, and you can go to wastewater treatment plants. All of these things are emitting non-vented, non-flared methane into the atmosphere. And oftentimes in the case of the orphaned oil wells, they're not even close enough to a pipeline or electrical infrastructure to be able to plug into the grid. And that's an important comment because I'm trying to make the case that Bitcoin is one of the most pro-environment technologies that we have today. And when you say, oh, well, we can, you know, monitor, we can take the methane, we can combust it and we can turn it into Bitcoin,

their brain is going to go, well, why don't you just put it into the grid so other things can use it? Well, if it's stranded and far enough away from a grid or a pipeline, it literally can't be used for that purpose. Like, it cannot, there's wells in the middle of nowhere, right? I was just talking to you about the other day in Alberta. There's like, who knows how many, right? If I wish I could show the map right now because it's the whole, the whole province of Alberta is covered in little red dots,

where the point where the entire province of Alberta is, it almost looks like a giant red blotch. And so what these miners can do is they can come in, they can combust the map. methane, which converts it to CO2, which is really, really good for the planet because if you can, like, what is it? Methane is 20, at minimum 25 times worse for the atmosphere than carbon dioxide. And there's a methane, like, emergency, and everybody's dumping money into it and trying to figure out how they can fix this problem. But the really interesting part is because it's non-vented, non-flared, and not economical to put into the grid or to put into a pipeline, orphaned oil wells. if you mine enough of them could turn Bitcoin not just carbon neutral, but carbon negative. Because you're having a carbon negative impact, like the equivalent of a reduction in methane in carbon dioxide that would allow us to say, you know what? You think Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining

is bad for the environment and you want to switch to proof of stake? Okay, well, at best, take all the other arguments away for why you shouldn't move to proof of stake. But at best, you'll be carbon neutral. Well, Bitcoin mining, without, any wrecks, without any carbon credits, has the potential to be carbon negative. And it has the potential to do it in less than a decade, which would mean it is the first industry in history to do it that quickly, which is a totally revolutionary thing. And I think that come next cycle, maybe the one after that, we might be over and done with any sort of environmental fud that comes from those that are concerned about Bitcoin mining's environmental consumption,

or it's energy consumption. So that has me super bullish. And I couldn't be possibly be more bullish about promoting it through Satoshi Action Fund. We're trying to craft some model policy to make sure the state's moving the right direction on this issue. See, this is what I love about Bitcoin is because it's money that is directly tied to energy, like overtly, unlike the petrodollary, covertly tied to energy in a way. And, you know, and military might perhaps. but with Bitcoin being like directly correlated and tied to energy and you cannot simply just

printed out of nothing and actually has a cost that is associated with energy which can't be faked it gets people actually thinking about how energy works and it gets people getting down to the crux of like well you know where does the energy come from how is it work how are we using it most efficiently and it gets to the idea of waste energy and how much energy we produce and what percentage of that is actually wasted, which is most. Most energy produced is just wasted. It goes nowhere. And Bitcoin gets to hone in on a lot of that because it needs to be cost efficient the way that Bitcoin finds its energy. And so that's why you see a lot of hydro, right? Like when there's an abundance of hydro in a particular area and it, you know, you can't just,

you can't just take energy that's produced locally and then put it to the other side of the globe. There's not such thing as like, you know, too much when it comes to the idea of opportunity cost for stranded hydro. That's, it's not really a sound concept, right? Like you can't go to rural China and be like, oh, we're going to capture the hydroelectricity there and we're going to use it to power a Tesla in California. It doesn't like, you can't get the energy there with enough energy loss that it makes any sense. But I love that it has people thinking about how our grids work. It, you know, it taught me, which I wasn't privy to, the idea of you've got to run a grid at

peak capacity 100% of the time so that if you reach peak. capacity, you don't have roving blackouts in metropolitan areas. And that's a concept that I was totally unfamiliar with. I thought, oh, well, we'll just ramp up production when it's needed, ramp it back down. You can't do that. You can't, you have to be ready for the absolute utmost in demand at all times. And if you're not using all of that, a lot of that just gets wasted. And so when you're talking about grid stabilization, having the capacity to use, that excess energy in a productive way to power something that's very important, monetary system, a way for people to transact across the globe,

with energy that's wasted anyways, as opposed to requiring additional energy to be created to power the legacy financial system and all of its physical buildings and all of the infrastructure in and around it. And people look much too often, you know, people that are still kind of in a Fiat mindset that look far too often at Bitcoin produces X amount of energy. I don't understand it enough. So I know that the basler of Bitcoin can do X number of transactions per second. So that means this amount of energy per transaction.

And it's just like the most simplistic way of looking at it. That is just totally nonsensical if you actually understand the system and that it doesn't scale linearly. And that things like Lightning Network make all of these points moot. And I just love that the conversation of energy has taken on an entirely different tone, the more that people understand energy. And you see people in the energy sector that get it gravitating towards Bitcoin and realizing there's opportunity here. And this is very unique that we have a sound money tied directly to energy that can't be faked.

And I think that's huge. I love what we talked about methane too. I'm going to toss it to Julian here because I know there's somebody that you would like to chat about in and around methane in the Vancouver area that we were chatting about earlier, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe you want to mention that. There's a couple things. I wanted to ask Dennis this question real quick because I've done some research on it and I'm not an expert on mining at all. But when I see the trajectory of the hash rate, the Bitcoin price, I can't help but think that eventually there will be a lot of waste from all the mining machines. What do you say to that as a counterargument? Like, let's just say 20 years from now, we're going to have all these like S-9s or S-19s or S-19s that are useless and then can't really be recycled to create much else. Yeah.

So it's really interesting. in fact, this concept around Bitcoin mining and waste, from what I can see the direction of the industry going is you will always have private miners or should I say large miners. And what I mean by private is private business. I also refer to them as publicly traded miners so that can get confusing if I don't use the right terminology, but I'll try to stick to privately ran companies and publicly ran companies. Not to confuse with government, you know, so to speak. As Bitcoin mining fleets start to retire, they become extremely cheap.

Almost nobody wants them. And this makes them really, really perfect candidates to become components of the grid. So oftentimes a lot of the balancing that Ben is talking about occurs at the point of generation. So thermal turbines oftentimes are those that hold the largest amount of weights or responsibility for balancing the grid because solar and wind both kind of receive priority and nuclear does as well, which is technically kind of a thermal somewhat of a thermal, at least it uses heat to heat up water and turn into steam to spin a turbine. but these thermal turbines, these thermal plants, what they do is in order to compensate for the fluctuations in demand,

they will spin up and spin down, and fluctuations in supply now too, actually, because of wind and solar. So they'll spin up and they'll spin down. And during that process, they actually go through a significant amount of wear and tear on the turbines themselves. And just the entire process of heating up and cooling down water causes wear and tear on thermal plant systems. Well, you could actually, in the future,

take large banks of S-9 miners and place them at the point of generation and use them as a load balancer instead of putting that responsibility onto the thermal plant themselves. And this is a really smart play because those S-9s, probably, mostly S-9s, anything older than an S-9 is not really reliable enough in my opinion. But the S-9s are extremely reliable and sturdy machines. And I think that you'll, as everything ages, you'll continue to see this kind of same process play out. But what will happen is utility companies, power companies, grid operators, will you actually use the older equipment to help balance the grid instead of placing that responsibility on the thermal plants, the thermal turbines themselves.

Is there no chance? They don't need to be on all the time is kind of the premise. right and I think that works if you consider what hash rate is today but like I want to fast forward like 30 40 years from now wouldn't it be the equivalent of like saying oh a laptop could be a load balancer today if hash rate keeps growing at the way that it is if you consider that with bitcoin mining and thermal plants spinning up and down they're they're basically creating energy um that would cost almost nothing extra to produce. And so it's like saying, well, yeah, the amount of Bitcoin I will mine every day may drop over time. But the profitability may drop, but it will be very difficult for anyone to edge me out completely because the energy that I'm creating is nearly free. Same thing with like solar and like and wind. Like theoretically, if you have a solar plant and, and, you, it's, you,

you know, you get to the point where you have to curtail, which means you shut off because nobody wants the power. That's free power. So you can mine Bitcoin with a laptop, theoretically, and make money because the power is free. So when power is free, like, you can't be edged out, no matter how old your equipment is. So that's kind of the main point for why I don't think E waste is really a major issue because someone will buy the stuff up because it's pretty much worthless to everybody else, like one man's, you know, trash is another man's treasure.

And then they can use those machines to mine Bitcoin. And it's good for them because they're not going to be on all the time. If you want to be a large, if you're doing this for business, like you're a minor and that's your business to be a minor, you're going to want the latest and greatest hardware. And I think that they'll continuously drive us to the future of

better machines, more efficient processes, and also looking into cheaper and cheaper ways of creating energy. On the end of that, Bitcoin mining is an infrastructure piece. It's not a business at all. It's just a way to balance the grid and then take off some of that excess generation in a way where you are making money. It's just not necessarily your primary source of revenue that you create for your company. Thanks for that explanation.

Julian, the other thing I was going to, did you want to touch on the methane with, is it mint cream? Or it's not methane. Yeah. So there's a company in Vancouver called. mint green and they're putting basically like if you have an apartment building and you have central heating and that central heating is powered by electricity you essentially just have a giant space heater in your in your basement that's pushing heat through the whole building and a bitcoin mining setup can generate just about as much heat you just have to find a different way to kind of capture it and so this company is going and they're going into buildings with this type of setup or even new projects and they're pitching just saying let's just put a bunch of bitcoin miners in the

basement, use all the heat that's generated off of it, and heat buildings, and then we also get a bit of Bitcoin on the side, right? I think that's super cool. I wonder how, I mean, this is the only company in the space that I think is doing this, Mint Green. But, you know, we're finding all these creative ways to use miners, which I think is really interesting. And I think that also, to add to Dennis's point of like, you know, as long as energy is free, there's still value in them. That's another way of capturing value from these things in the long term, I think, is potentially using them as like heating sources. I also think of Iceland where they want a geothermal and those mining facilities are awesome because they don't have to have all this like ventilation since it stays so cold.

Like, you know, they can just have natural like wind flowing through some of those warehouses. But you could use Bitcoin miners in like really cold climates that have still abundant energy resources and use them to heat things on top of getting some Bitcoin out of it. I have a quick question in the comments here. I'm going to bring it up. I'll give my thoughts, but I'll let anybody who wants to weigh in as well. well before we rotate the topic here. But Alan says, what happens when most of the wells, solar, and wind is for Bitcoin? Where do other industries get their green energy?

And so my initial thought looking at this question is this gets into the question of opportunity costs, right? And a lot of the times Bitcoin is simply eating up waste energy, right? You have to be a certain level of efficient to actually be making a profit mining Bitcoin. And so if it's efficient enough and it makes sense from the price of Bitcoin and everything, sure, you're going to get Bitcoin miners using these methods of mining Bitcoin. However, you've got to get down to the reality of the market, right? Like how valuable is this power? What are people willing to pay for it? And in some instances, like in Texas, you have miners that have deals with power producers where they're saying, hey, like, will, if you give us a nice deal

on your excess power, we volunteer to shut down in a crunch when you need the power, when you're reaching peak capacity. We'll power down our miners because we're flexible. We can do that. And then you take all of the excess capacity and you get it to your grid and you get everybody and you make sure that everything's stable and running as normal. And we saw that happen just recently. where, yeah, big, okay, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, you can use the power as needed. And, and, you know, Bitcoin miners, I mean, they don't want to sour the relationships that they have with these major power producers, um, voluntarily ramped down for, for a time where, where power was absolutely needed. And so I think, again, as Dennis, you've been alluded to it's, it's a stability mechanism where, where there's an opportunity to, to, to,

offload some of this excess power without the miners themselves having to become producers of energy, they can simply be there to kind of lap up the excess at a preferred rate and then step aside when it's needed. But I'll leave it to you guys. Any thoughts on that question? Yeah, I want to make a note that we cannot sustain our population on renewable energy alone. We definitely need to integrate nuclear. We need a lot more nuclear. their plants, storage of energy. This is something a lot of so-called environmentalists say they oppose, but it's net zero energy. And we really need it for a clean planet.

Hopefully we can get there soon because we are running out of time to provide energy for our growing population. For example, in Nevada, 90% of energy is imported. So that's very bad situation to be in, especially seeing now what's going on with the economy and energy. Countries are pushed up against the wall trying to figure out how they're going to afford to pay for energy, especially with the winter coming. I think renewables are good right now. Bitcoin is giving a good incentive for energy companies to start building out their grids, start investing in better technology. So, yeah, going with the person who commented, it's not possible for all our energy to be used

for Bitcoin mining. And also, we do need to integrate. Yeah. Yeah, nuclear, I think, is huge. And one of the things that I've loved seeing recently, as much as, I mean, there's, oh, the Jane dropped out, but when I see her pop up, I'll bring her back in. Nonetheless, in and around nuclear, I love the kind of realization in and around nuclear that it's kind of got a bad rap over the past number of years.

And because of that, the regulations in and around nuclear. And Jane, welcome back. If you can hear me, I got you there. But Jane, great point in and around nuclear. I think it's so necessary because the efficiency, in and around nuclear. I see, I see again,

like a misnomer that I'm seeing in the comments here, nuclear power is not net zero, but is needed. That's nuclear is zero emissions. There are zero carbon emissions from nuclear energy.

And so, like, there's not carbon associated with nuclear. Like, yes, is there waste around nuclear? Yes. Very,

it can be very contained. All of the nuclear, waste over the past, like for all of humanity's, fits inside a relatively small area. You can fit in a building. But like to give an idea, like you can, you could power an airplane on nuclear and not have to refuel for decades. Like a person, the amount of uranium necessary for an individual to power their entire life on nuclear, it fits inside like the size of a cocaine.

So like, now, The efficiencies aren't built in yet because we don't have the decades of experience making it as efficient as we have with, you know, you've seen mileage on fossil fuel cars have gotten so much better because we've gotten a lot of very good at making those things efficient. But there's a lot of promise in the density of energy that you can get out of nuclear versus other alternatives. alternatives and it comes without the the carbon output that we're used to with other fossil fuel alternatives. And I think that's a fantastic thing. And I'm glad to see even though we're kind of facing what's going to be a pretty awful winter in a lot of European places, you know, Germany, their their price for powers

like 30x the norm. And they're going into winter. Like that's the future is kind of pricing on what energy. is going to cost over here. It's kind of insane. But through this, we've also seen the EU say, oh, you know what's green now? Nuclear.

I think even though the motive may not be necessarily on the up and up, I think whether it's for kind of, again, the motives can be fuzzy, but nonetheless, I think it's a positive thing that people are looking at nuclear again. And I think when I look at books like the fourth turning and I see, I think that could be like a plausible, like the crisis is not necessarily a crisis of happenstance that just comes upon us, but one of reaction to stimuli that happens through generations. I think that coming out of that forth turning into a period of abundance and rapid creation and creativity and building for humanity, I think one of those things could be a global censorship resistant sound money. But I think one of the other things will be an ability to harness energy in a way that is efficient like we've never seen before. And I think part of that could be the reexamination and the reintroduction of nuclear.

And I think that's huge. And I think Bitcoin can play a part in that as well. So I know that's a bit of a long run. But if anybody else wants to chime in before we move on from the energy talk, feel free. That's my kind of idiot comments. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to mention I'm online here right now. So it's a proven carbon-free energy source and that zero needs nuclear.

close to net zero technology and it produces greater than 55% of carbon-free electricity in the United States. So I just wanted to make sure I fact-checked that. I love that. Thank you for that. That's great. I'll make this like really short. But like every giant leap forward that humanity has had in terms of like better living conditions has either come from a, it's correlated to a move to sound money, which is like where we get the term gold and nature. from they had sound money in the Renaissance or it's been a proliferation of finding a new source of energy and being able to harness it. So, you know, in order for us to maybe get out of a rut, we do one of those two things. We either find a really easy way to extract energy from nuclear or we move to Bitcoin or both. That'd be great. Again, Christopher, I don't think this is correct.

He's saying, is nuclear power as zero emission energy source? No. Its energy is also responsible for greenhouse gas emissions. There's no greenhouse gases. It's water vapor. Yeah. So water vapor is technically a greenhouse gas, like, by certain metrics. But it's not nearly a controversial issue. And there will always be people that are opposed to nuclear.

It always happens. Look at any post online, anywhere, any article, you'll always see a long line of people commenting against nuclear. So they're wrong. Yeah, there's a, yeah, I mean, water vapor itself is technically an emission. So I kind of, you know, understand what Christopher is getting at at this point. You know, I'm not an expert on water vapor versus carbon or methane. So I haven't even done the research on it.

So I'd have to check. But when his recent comment, you have to deal with the radioactive waste is, we've been dealing with radioactive waste for a very long time, very effectively, very safely. So I think it's a, it's a little bit of us, you know, kind of a boogeyman thing to say that nuclear waste is going to cause us a major problem. There's a lot of nuclear advocates have done a good job of talking about this topic. Just the one last thing to cover this, though, is that that's interesting about, you know, renewables is Bitcoin mining actually makes renewables work better.

Because without Bitcoin mining, you don't have anyone to soak up excess load or to shut off when there isn't enough supply. Bitcoin mining can fill that role perfectly. So it improves the economics. of renewable energy assets. And because of just the dynamics that we're in right now, unless we see some very big changes in the way that we view nuclear and other types of energy assets,

I don't see us moving away from the trajectory that we're on with renewable energy assets. In fact, they're expanding more than ever. And the more that we expand them, the more unstable the grid becomes. And so that's why Bitcoin mining works perfectly for that sort, that kind of planned out, expected expansion of renewable because as I said, it can it can turn on to soak up the excess

energy that's created because we don't always need all the energy that is created by those intermittent loads. When the wind is blowing and when the sun is shining is not always when people need that power. So Bitcoin mining will soak up that load, monetize it and then shut down when there is not enough energy on the grid. And I think that and again, Dennis, you're telling me that a good ESG score is not enough for incentive to move to green energy. come on and again i think carbon credits man yeah man and this this is a lot of the the misconception

in and around energy is is um you know you get you get into the the green energy and everything like that and and you've got to be mindful of it you know if you're getting if you have an electric car where's the electricity coming that is powering that car like i don't know if you guys have seen you know some of those clips where it's like oh yeah we've we put in a charging station at this at this at this uh this this facility and it's it's this big you know hoopla and the the media's there and then the guy's interviewing oh so where you get in the power from they're like oh from the building no no but like who supplies your power and oh well this company okay well what's their energy mix and they're like oh well it's i think they're mostly coal so you look okay great you've got a

coal powered electric car sitting in front so like you have to think like if you're using some of these sources, you have to be cognizant of it, you know, where is the energy coming from? What is the source of the energy? Because if the source is hydrocarbons and then you're combusting those elsewhere to receive the electricity in which you get energy loss and then powering your electrical vehicle or whatever it may be, then you're not being honest about how you're achieving what you're setting out. And so you can't just say something is green or something is not. You have to be honest about the get-go, where did the energy originate? How was it created to get to its end point? Because I think there's a lot of that shit that goes

on and it drives me insane. If somebody's getting energy from the sun and you're powering something, great, wonderful. Okay. But if you're literally digging up hydrocarbons, you're burning them, you're getting electricity and then you're powering an electric car with it. It's kind of just a big circle jerk. So we've got to be careful about this stuff. And people, People have to be honest about where the energy is coming from because it piss me off to no end when people say like, this is green and you're like, is it though? And so, you know, honesty there, I think is important because I think a lot of people just do things to get subsidies. That's the end of the rant. I'll stop there.

Anyways, let's let's let's move on from there. Okay. So we're going to do a rotation. Everybody in the comments, again, thank you for being here. but it's time for a little rotation on comment. So Jane, I'm going to toss it to you. It's now up to you. Let us know what has you bullish.

What's top of mind? What are you excited about? Okay. So I want to mention that big oil companies are mining Bitcoin with renewable energy now. So that's something to definitely take a look at as well. Right now I'm bullish on Bitcoin, not just in a price point. way. We're kind of going through a scary moment. I personally am not afraid of a lower Bitcoin price because I see it as a long-term investment. It's not something I just want to use to go buy

some potato chips this weekend. So I see it as long-term investment. I also think it's really important for us to get people educated about finance, about Bitcoin. And one of the biggest challenges that I've found is how to communicate it to people without getting too technical. That's actually, I think, going to be the biggest challenge is learning how to talk to people in a very casual way, making it make sense. And I've been practicing a lot. I also have been able to convert a lot of people to using Bitcoin to buying and saving Bitcoin. And they're happy about it. I don't have anybody I know that's upset about any change in price. And like I said, it is a long-term investment. But education is going to be a priority for adoption, global adoption.

I think Lightning Network has been really helpful with that. But the technical language really is what stops people from getting into it, in my opinion. Ben, you're muted. Can you hear me? Sorry. Yeah. Too many white claws. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going on a desperado.

I'm actually on the farm right now. So I think the connection out here is pretty bad. Oh, no. That's all good. That was me, beer, and mute. But I was going to say, so you're talking about some of the technical language. Were there any technical misnomerous that you came across, like in your learning? like in your learning path where where you were looking at things and you said okay what the hell is this

were there any hurdles as you were learning about bitcoin that you found okay this this was a difficult one for me to grasp and then you found something that helped you over that hurdle what is your learning kind of trajectory been like and and what has helped you through that um there was a lot I'd say about 90% of my learning about Bitcoin was like hearing Chinese without knowing the language. Sha 256, nodes, time chain is a big one. I mean, this is really confusing. Also, a lot of Bitcoin Max, these are very opposed to using language that ordinary people would understand. So that's a pretty big challenge as well.

I think a lot of people look at Bitcoin maximalism as toxic. I've learned to see it as minimalist. I think that it's essentially people that are trying to make sure that people understand that Bitcoin is mine. It's proof of work. It's not just invented currency. Charles Hopkinson actually came for me on Twitter last week when I stated that Bitcoin is the only decentralized money. And I basically laughed about it because Charles Hoskinson started his own central bank essentially. He invented his own money and then decided to try to get people on board to buy into his scam.

So that's a pretty big thing. It's like, hmm? I was going to say, did you tell the CEO of Cardano that the CEO of Bitcoin would be back to him to address his concerns? Oh my gosh. I should have said that. But yeah, I mean, I didn't know much about Charles before he quoted me, retweeted, quoted me. And so once I did the research, I looked into it and he had been one of the co-founders or co-developers of Ethereum, which I think is one of the top five cryptocurrencies right now. And so that again, I also think Ethereum is, I don't want to use the word scam.

but it's very misleading when it defines itself as decentralized, especially when they work with banks like J.B. Morgan or investment banks, big companies. And to me, that's really shady. I think it's really important for us to understand what decentralized means and how it's actually going to lead us to a better monetary system. Like they say, fix the money, fix the world. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to let either Dennis or,

Julian chime in here. Any thoughts on, again, like I guess in and around the realm of, you know, some of the technical terms that can be misunderstood as your first coming into Bitcoin and maybe some of the helpful things that can help people navigate them. What have your experience has been in and around that? I think it's really hard to fully appreciate Bitcoin without doing any self-custody. And I still think that is, something that layer twos and other companies need to really get better at doing because we're going to live in a world if we eventually get to hyper-bitonization where most people are not self-custodying.

It's just the way that it works right now with like if you have one character off, little issues with your, you know, Bitcoin core or whatever, you lose your funds. It's not going to work. So I think Square is doing a lot of work on this to try and get this right, linking it to fingerprints. Some people say, oh, then everyone will just cut off your thumb. or some nonsense, but that needs to get a lot better, I think, before people are comfortable to self-custody.

When you self-custody, then you start to understand Bitcoin really to its fullest. Yeah. Dennis, how about yourself? Yeah. So for me, to be honest, I stopped explaining the technical side of Bitcoin to people. I feel that most people find it's something that they think they need to know when, in fact, they don't. And what I mean by that is go ask anybody how the internet.

works and they couldn't have a damn clue about how the internet works, but they know what the internet has to offer. They know the benefits that the internet has to offer. You know, you can order a pizza and have it to your doorstep in, you know, 10, 20 minutes. You can order an app. You can order a ride via an app. You can order a house like, right? You can rent a house. You can talk on a podcast, right? Through the internet. Something that people thought there's no way this would ever be possible. They didn't think we could stream video. Now we have multiple people. You know, you can have dozens of people on the same call streaming simultaneously. And I think we're kind of getting to that same era with Bitcoin. We're starting to see the benefits of Bitcoin, just like we

see the benefits of the internet. And those benefits are, you know, anything from sending instant payments to anywhere on the planet without having to have an address or an ID to increase payment privacy and also on the side of Bitcoin, as I mentioned before earlier, like you can bring jobs, you can be in grid infrastructure investment. You can stabilize the grid. You can clean up the environment and it can enhance renewables. It's like I kind of just said to myself, I don't think people need to understand the technical side of Bitcoin anymore. I'm going to just start telling them what the benefits are. And if they go technical, you know, I go there briefly with them, try to try to give them a little bit information and move them as quickly as possible over the conversation

around the benefits of Bitcoin because people really don't care or need to know. about the technical side of Bitcoin, even though I think in the last five, 10 years, it's mattered more so for people that are getting into the space so they can become educators like yourself. But the broader audience, like when I'm talking to random people, they're just like, how does Bitcoin work? I quickly shift them into what does Bitcoin do for you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think building off that, like it's a good analogy with the internet because the internet has been around, I think technically since the 80s, but like in mainstream, maybe since like mid-90s, we could have had Airbnb in like the year 2000.

It didn't come around until, I don't know, 2008. Why is that? Because it takes time to build these things, you know, to build the layer twos, to build the layout so they're super easy to use. That stuff's coming for Bitcoin. That's where I see the most exciting stuff coming is the layer two, it's the lightning. The fact that like I can use, I mean, I don't know. If you guys try to use lightning like three years ago, it was like you had to have your own node,

basically. And it was a mess. And now I can just get moon wallet and I can go between on chain and lightning. like it's nothing and like these are the things that make it usable to people and those are the reasons that you don't have to explain the technicals to people so we need to keep pushing that stuff obviously yeah awesome okay well what i'm going to do now i'm going to do a rotation but i've got to say jane anytime somebody brings up charles Hoskinson on the show we have to give a shout out because you know charles is responsible for creating cardano cardano yeah yeah and

And I'm not sure if you're familiar, Jane. Have you seen Yellow's creation, his advertisement for Cardano? Have you seen this? No. It's a trade. Do you have the video? Do you have the video ready? Oh, hell yeah.

So I've got to bring it up here. Give me a second. Let me get it on my screen here. But I think it might be the best. advertisement for Cardano I've ever seen. It's truly a work of art. So let me just pull it up here. You guys are seeing this, right? Yeah. I can't even look at the initial screen without labbing.

Okay, you guys let me know of you here in the audio. Hold on one sec here. Here we go. Just enter the crypto space. It's good. And you don't know what to buy. Buy some. Cordano. Wow, look that posture.

Cordano is the next. I don't see that it's totally eco-friendly and it's awesome. In many colors. Did you buy that new thing that, nano do you mean cordano just in the oh god I can't I can

yes so if you if that doesn't sell it for you I don't know what well I just love that you have the video like ready to go no no I'm in the side chat I'm like yeah I'll send over send that length play is it because

I think it's probably the fourth or fifth time I played on the show because it's just it's a work of art yeah we have the best memes yeah really yellow has the best memes is um awesome okay well i'm gonna give a rotation uh julian it is now to you uh let's hear man what what is top of mind for you what are you excited about why are you bullish um i don't have like a particular like event or a story it's just more the way that i have come to think about bitcoin And as someone who wants to orange pill more people, it's a new way of doing it. And it's, I think, just talking about what money is. We're so confronted with this question, I think more than like any other time in most generations because of inflation.

And everyone's just asking, like, where is this coming from? Why is this happening? And you get to really approach and get people into the Bitcoin space from a angle that matters to them, less than an angle of like, here's this cool new piece of technology. It can help you send money over the internet and, you know, buy drugs on Silk Road. We had that reputation for so long. And I think a lot of people said, you know, COVID changed people's view of it, store of value. Like, yeah, that's interesting.

But as a form of like functional money, you know, fungibility, scarcity, all the things that makes money, money. Now that we can have this conversation about it because our money is so broken, it just allows better conversations, I think, in general, about Bitcoin. rather than just talking about it speculation-wise. And I find this really interesting, and maybe Jane can chime in on this, and Dennis, too, I find that when the question of Bitcoin comes up in interviews with heads of central banks or politicians, it's something like, what do you think about Bitcoin? And the first thing that these people fire off is, like, it can't be a currency.

It can't be a real form of money. It doesn't do this. It's not issued by a central bank, so it can't be money. They go after the monetary aspect of Bitcoin first, because if you discredit that to the outlier or to the average person who doesn't understand Bitcoin, discrediting it as money is the easiest way to shut down the conversation about Bitcoin. But I think it's becoming increasingly hard to do that as we see more adoption in countries like El Salvador. You can't just say, oh, it's not currency.

So it's like, well, it is for like six million people potentially and that is only going to keep growing. And so what makes me bullish about Bitcoin is I think the key to unlocking the next billion Bitcoin users on the planet is to have this conversation about what actually money is, how it's supposed to function. And we've never had a currency like Bitcoin. We've never had a currency as sound as Bitcoin is. And if we want to use it as a form of money, we have to take the leap and give it a shot, you know, politicians have to be able to convey this. Otherwise, they're going to get attacked from every angle.

I know in Canada, we have Pierre Pahliav, who is the head of the conservative party, who is a pretty good Bitcoin supporter. But when he is challenged about it on stage, every challenge about it is like, it can't be a form of money. It's so volatile, blah, blah, blah. And he doesn't want to curtail, I guess, whatever argument they're having a debate to just be all about Bitcoin. But eventually, I think really good politicians are going to be able to communicate this effectively with people. And we're getting there and we're getting more Bitcoin politicians like Bruce Fenton, Jane, yourself, all over the place. I have a billion questions for Dennis, too, because you're working on the front lines of this.

But I mean, I'm really bullish on just the way that Bitcoin is being taught to people now as money rather than something speculative. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to take up too much, but I agree. There's never been better inroads to have those conversations than today. Right. Like prior, it would be like, oh, well, we have stable currency. Well, nobody's literally living through like everybody knows. oh, inflation's potentially double digits in the Western world.

My groceries are insane. My energy bill's insane. Like, I know that my currency is not serving me for whatever reason. And maybe some people haven't made the connection that it's their currencies and not, you know, like some other boogeyman that's causing prices to go up and the greedy corporations or whatever. but many have understood that the currency, there's something awry with the currency itself because they see the inflation rate. And they understand that even though that inflation number

may not be exactly as it's presented, it's still bad. And so you can't say, well, you know, our currency is stable and Bitcoin's not. That's no longer a valid argument. And you can't say it's not a currency because, well, it is. it's it's literally a reserve currency for an entire country of people it's it's it's a legal currency in two nations now and and it's treated as de facto legal currency in more places than that so

um those arguments are out it's it's it's now it's always the you know it's it's um you know it's only for this person it's only for this part and again there's a whole string i remember tweeting it out like ages ago but oh it's only for um nerds it's only for dark web drug dealers oh it's only for um you know a hobbyist oh it's only for so and so and it's it's only for small countries and it's it just keeps on building on itself and so oh it's it's it's not a currency it's it's speculative oh it is a currency but it's only a currency for so and so and so it's it's just it's only this until it's It's not only that.

Yeah. So anyways, I'll tee it up for Jane or Dennis if you want to dive in here. Yeah, I'll just be really quick. I just want to say that we shouldn't always trust our politicians to be looking out for our best interest when it comes to Bitcoin. They may say Bitcoin is dangerous or it's shady. It supports dark business. But, I mean, just today I read an article looking at it right now that the World Economic Forum confirms Ripple as an official partners. So they're not opposed to cryptocurrency. They're just opposed to people having

freedom to use cryptocurrency without their permission. And I know a lot of people like Senator Lummis, but looking at her bill, I mean, it just even begins with integrating cryptocurrencies into the American financial system. And I don't think we need to be integrating into the system. We should be leaving this system through Bitcoin. So I definitely want to be. to warn people to keep an eye out for the politicians that are not looking out for our best interest or Bitcoin's best interest, but their own role in the American financial system. I'll also say that only somebody who's a fan of Ripple could see the World Economic Forum condoning and partnering with Ripple as a positive.

We'll just toss that out there right away. Also, I think that was, I saw that post on Twitter and apparently it was relatively old, news that some dude who runs a ripple website refound and like like peruse because you know the the WF website they literally just list anybody who's ever like even graced their presence at one point actually on the Canada track Julian Pierre Pollyev was listed somewhere on their website

and people were like what in the hell are you and he's like guys have never interacted with them before I fully disagree with literally all of their policies. I want nothing to do with them. And he actively started campaigning, being like, we don't want anything that you're doing. Get the hell.

And I mean, even lightning laps and who was on there? Was it? Yeah, that was it. Elizabeth. Yeah, it was on there too. Yeah, I mean, like, I will say like the weft stuff is like, oftentimes like they,

you know, people are associated with them or it could be like they spoke at an event that they were at the same event. Like, it's very loose if you're on the website, but that shouldn't keep us from always being vigilant on like who that we're associating with and not trusting but verifying. I think the, you know, I try to go back to, you know, Julian's point around Bitcoin and the timing of Bitcoin and talking to people about it and them being open to discussing it. I think one of the biggest things that really has changed the dialogue over the last two, three years is like government, just like proving why Bitcoin is so valuable. Like look what happened.

I mean, look what happened in Canada. I mean, it's crazy. Like everyone was always like, oh, this is never happened in Western country. And then it did. Like it really just takes political people really fundamentally misplace kind of how easy it is. for these actions to take place in their own country, it just comes down to political willpower. If you have the political willpower to do something, you can do it as long as you get enough people to buy into the idea. It doesn't matter if there's a democracy, a constitution,

voting, what your powers are or what they aren't, if people get together and decide they're going to do something and the other side doesn't have enough political willpower or people on their side to stop it, like, you're probably not going to be able to stop it. So we saw that happen with Justin Trudeau. There's been a ton of other things, including inflation that have really made us understand why Bitcoin is so important. It used to be, I'd say,

oh, there's a hard supply cap, people were like, the hell was that for? Why do you need a hard supply cap? All of a sudden, we print trillions of dollars, and people were like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

And they're like, why do you need censorship-resistant money? Like, your government's not, like, what is that? We're in a Western country. They're not going to do that. Boom, Justin Trudeau, like, censors transactions, right?

It's like, it made a big difference. And I think, you know, tying it into my other point, too, is like that I made earlier around understanding the benefits of it. Like, we just understand Bitcoin better than we did even just a few years ago. Like a few years ago was like, oh, it's sound money. That's like all anyone talked about. Sound money, sound money, sound money. But now we're talking about how it is a way to transmit money instantly anywhere on the planet.

And we're also talking about the benefits of Bitcoin mining. And I think that there are going to be more and more and more things that are built on. top of Bitcoin that make us realize, wow, this is an incredible technology. And when we share that with people who have a very limited knowledge of Bitcoin, they're going to be like, wow, I didn't know it was like you could do all that with Bitcoin. And you're going to really see, I think you're going to start to see the adoption curve, start to pick up pretty dramatically in the next five years because of these benefits, because of these new ways of using Bitcoin that we were, we weren't able to use before.

And to Jane's point earlier that it's just so much easier to use. Like, you used to have to have a node, right? like you just have set up your own like individual node to use lightning and now it's like you just download breeze you just download blue wallet and use it right from your phone yeah absolutely things have come so far it's you know for those that just want simple easy access to the transactional capacity of bitcoin or or or again the sound money aspects of bitcoin you can get it without too much technical knowledge like you just you need to download an app and you're set you're good to go.

But it's still accessible for those that want to get their foot further in that door, which is amazing. And that's kind of the ethos of Bitcoin is not everybody has to do all those technical things, but it remains accessible for those who choose to, which is super important. And we've seen that a lot lately. So any final thoughts in and around this topic? Or Julian, if you wanted to add more to it. Yeah, I don't know how many people here have gone down to El Salvador, but like, that is such a killer app usage for Bitcoin, not having to go to foreign exchanges.

If you're one of these people that travels from country to country, you know, maybe in Europe, you're fine because everyone uses the euro. But if you're around like Africa or Asia, you're constantly swapping currencies and like how beautiful would it be if you could just use one that works across borders without having to deal with sanctions and all these other things? It's a beautiful piece of technology for travelers, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Any other final thoughts here or should we? It looks like we're. I just say to everyone, be confident, be brave, go out there, run for office, get involved in community efforts. However you start, you'll quickly understand that it's a lot easier than it seems.

and it's important for us to all have a voice. It's important for younger people to be involved in the political process and go out and get it. Absolutely. I got a question to ask you guys because I talked to Seb Bunny, who's fantastic and Greg Foss about this. Is there an age that's like too early to teach people about financial education? Like should we be teaching people about where money comes from when they're five?

Is that too early? Like when would you start? That's too late. I think, I think depending on how you present it, right? Because you can, you can be teaching about something and having people not realizing they're learning about it. So like, so my daughter's five. And she's, I've gradually over the over time have like taught her.

You know, you kind of need to ingrain those basic, even just basic concepts of like, oh, you can exchange time for money and. money for goods and services just like like kind of laying that out there and having her understand that that money is a thing and it represents something uh you know on part of your effort and those are those are concepts that you can't just say and have somebody understand you need to kind of act those out and and have them but i mean with my daughter now i've found it super fun is um the coin corner in the uk they create the bolt card and you can link that to Bitcoin and pay via lightning.

And then I can have a phone with Breeze wallet and they have a point of sale terminal. And my daughter loves making stores. Like she'll just as a fun thing, she'll be like, oh, I made a store. And she'll have a little storefront and she'll just find crap from around the house. She'll be like, I found a can opener and a pair of glasses and your lens. cap and she'll lay them out and and i'm like okay i'll set up your store for you and so in breeze i'll create items with a price in sets and then she has me come to her store and say i would like the lens cap please and maybe the bottle opener too and so she'll tap the items on the breeze's point of sale

terminal and it tallies up what i owe her and then she'll hit finish and then i'll pay with the bolt card and it will do a lightning transaction to Bree's wallet. And she'll like, she is the merchant accepting the Bitcoin payment. So we get to actually kind of act out like her receiving legitimate money like for, for my own lens cap. But, you know, like it's she's learning kind of interaction and and, and, and, uh, her as a merchant. So like the basics of that.

Um, and I think my next, my next kind of foray into that. education will be as she starts to wrap her head around like, okay, well, I understand now you work during the day and what you do earns you money. And then as we've acted out and practiced, that money can then purchase things, which is all the stuff that we have in our house and when we go places. And I think the next foray for education for me will be conveying the idea of saying, what if I promised you a certain amount of money

and that amount of money could buy the bottle opener, but then tomorrow I say, that's not enough money to buy the bottle opener. And I want her to think through that moment of, well, that's not fair. I could buy the bottle opener yesterday. Why don't I have enough money

to buy the bottle opener today? I think that opens up the window into, well, why is my money? money not worth as much. Well, it's like the marshmallow test, right? Where like it's like some kids, like they'll be able to wait and they'll get two marshmallows versus if they have it right now, they only get the one or something. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I got to imagine like we have such a gerontocracy when it comes to politics, at least in the U.S. If we start teaching kids about Bitcoin like that early, right, we get them to do their lemonade stands. Like some people

are saying in the comments with Bitcoin, not even touching Fiat, they're going to just look at Fiat like, you know, how we look at fax machines. It'll be like, yeah, right. Like, it sucks like that we have to use it right now, but like, this is totally not the way. And it doesn't make sense to base my life around the cruel of more of this Fiat or, you know, promoting this system when it doesn't make sense. Start them young. I agree. And eventually, like, it takes over the world.

It's going to happen. I mean, like, you're one parent doing this. I don't have kids yet, but like for sure when I do, like, I teach them about Bitcoin first and then Fiat will come later, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a handful of people. Oh, yeah, repeat the marshmallow challenge. Maxwell in the comments.

By age six, they provide, Jay should provide a comparison of Austrian or changing economics in M&T. I don't even understand that. I love it. Yeah, no, it's never too young to start teaching. It's just how you attack it, and you got to recognize that, like,

your, you know, your three, four, five-year-old isn't going to have 30 years of money. muddling through Keynesian economics. So there's an advantage there, but you also got to start from the bare bones basics, just the basics of like exchanging time for money, which equals goods and services. Like that's, that's a concept that needs to be established before you establish anything else. Well, this is like a super short aside, but like it happens with like education of anything. My dad was a math teacher growing up and I'm like, I'm by no means good at math.

but one of the ways that he taught me about fractions is he got me to think differently about it I'll give you a question and most people will try and think of this answer in like one way but it'll be you have five pizzas or sorry you have seven pizzas but only five cans of tomato sauce and you got to put an equal amount on each pizza how much tomato sauce do you put on each pizza and most people are like it's like the decimal it's like 0.8 something but it's just five over seven it's five seven right and like you I've asked that question is So many people have asked this question of people in university. I've asked to people like, you know, my grade and like they don't get it because the foundation

of how you learn things really matters. And if you start teaching people about Bitcoin or kids about Bitcoin first, the questions will be less about why don't get Bitcoin? They'll be like, why is Fiat like this? Like why do we have a monetary system? Why do we accept this? This is so weird. And like that's such a great starting ground for creating a new generation of Bitcoiners.

So yeah. Yeah. I love that. Awesome. All right. Well, guys, I think what I'm going to do. is I'm going to start rounding it out here. What I'd like to do at the end of every episode is just get,

number one, like if you want to give information where people can find you and what you're doing, that's hugely helpful. If you do have a final thought about anything that was said today, feel free to share that. But the other thing that I'd love from each of you guys is if you have a recommendation of something that you'd like people to check out. And this could be anything.

It could be a piece of content that you've consumed that you've found useful throughout your Bitcoin journey, whether that be like an article or a book or a video or, you know, it could be something even like an app or a hardware device or just anything that you found useful that you think it's worth other people putting their eyeballs on. So again, where can people find you? and if you do have a final thought you'd like to throw on there and a recommendation. In terms of for myself, I'll just say I really enjoy the conversation. Thank you for, I feel like I did okay, given that I was a few beverages deep and it's now one three in the morning here. So I made it through.

And again, shout out to yellow for being here. I appreciate all of the commentary. And yellow is always our most esteemed guest here on the show. So thank you for being here. And everybody else in the chat. So I do appreciate all of you. No real final thoughts from me. I thought it was a great,

well-rounded conversation. I really like a lot of the energy talk and the talker in and around kind of the next wave of people that it's really inevitable that we get new people coming in. and it'll be very important that some of the issues we face now and some of the criticism we face now, we understand kind of like the reality of the situation, but it's important to form those ideas cohesively and be able to share those with newcomers as they show up. In terms of content, I'm going to recommend actually a piece of software, and I mentioned it last night on the show, on the news show, but I've been chatting a lot

with the guy here and he's one of the maintainers of Mercury Wallet, which is a privacy enhancing wallet that deals with state chains. And so I did a tutorial on Mercury Wallet a while back. And so what they do is they allow you to swap private keys in a way that doesn't allow somebody to compromise and then steal the coins back to you after getting access to your private key. So there's some interesting cryptography going there. But if you're familiar with open dimes, it's the equivalent of two people having open dime and saying, let's trade. There's no indication on chain that a change of hands has happened, but you now own different Bitcoin. So it's an interesting privacy preserving technique.

So check it out. Mercury wallet. I've done a video on it and I'll leave it there. So I'll rotate. Dennis, any final thoughts? Let people know where they can find you. and then most importantly, a recommendation, anything you want to throw out there. I'm just having fun over here playing with my lights.

Everyone was complaining about my disco lights in the back. So I figured I put on a little light show for them, everybody to see. But yeah, man, it's like come find me on Twitter. I'm there all the time at Dennis underscore Porter underscore. You can also look up Satoshi Action Fund, Satoshi Act Fund on Twitter. That's kind of where those two, you know, my Twitter and Satoshi Action Fund are where I spend the majority of my time.

really working very hard to try to get some public policy passed for Bitcoin miners so that we can make the United States. Yeah, you're welcome, everyone, you're welcome. So we can make the we can make the United States and North America, the best place in the world to mine Bitcoin. We have the energy. We have the enthusiasm. And I think we can get it done. What would I recommend for people? You know what? I would tell people, if you're looking to get into the Bitcoin space, you're trying to find something to study into research, give yourself a little bit of an edge over others. I would highly encourage you to look into how the grid works and how energy works and how Bitcoin mining plays into all of that because it's such a new space.

You know, we've really played around a lot with the financialization of Bitcoin, the tech side of Bitcoin when it comes to, you know, wallets, nodes and the hardware itself. but not very many people have dove into they're starting to quite a lot of people are starting to dove into this energy side of thing so if you can get your feet wet and go read about the grid go read about energy you can learn quite a bit and gain kind of like an advantage over where other people are in the space with regards to bitcoin and mining and energy so no specific recommendation other than if you want some articles i can i can send them your way a lot of the stuff that level 39 puts out it's really good.

He does a great job of talking about energy, writes for Bitcoin magazine, and does some of his own pieces as well. Yeah. I mean, I think understanding Bitcoin and understanding energy are going to come hand in hand over time. And if you are lacking in kind of either space, you're going to be at a disadvantage. So, yeah, start exactly as you said, start learning about how the grid actually functions. And I'm just starting down that journey.

And it's super interesting learning about this type of stuff. So yeah. With that, let's rotate. Jane, any final thoughts, let people know where they can find you. And then most importantly, if you have a recommendation for people to check out. Yeah. I want to reiterate everybody that cares about Bitcoin, everybody that cares about CBDCs or anything related to cryptocurrencies and policy.

go out volunteer it's a good way to meet your congressperson or state legislators or anyone that's involved in policy and just get involved keep your ear to the ground go online research learn as much as you can because this is the future of america and it's the future of the world and it's good to be able to to know people that are involved and have people to direct newcomers too like dennis Dennis was a huge influence for me. So thank you. And you could find me on Twitter. I post spaces.

I want to hear from everybody where everybody's at, what people's opinions are. And you can find me, I love Jane Adams. Awesome. And that'll be linked down below. And do you have anything that you'd like to point people towards that has been useful in terms of, I mean, obviously, Dennis, because Dennis. But point it towards Ben. Yeah. Well, you know, but like, you know, any, any, like, books, resources, apps, anything that, like, or even just like a wallet that you like, anything, any, any other things, or is that, are you good, you set there?

I get, I mean, some, this may be controversial, but I encourage people to go into cash app and just start messing around a Bitcoin a little bit, you know, five bucks a week, put some away. get an idea of how it works. It's a really easy way to get involved, especially since most people have cash up. I send my friends cash up all the time, like five bucks here and there for a cab, or can you pick up some chips on the way home? I notice I mentioned chips twice already,

so I'm probably going to eat some chips after this. I think I'm going to eat some chips too. Yeah, food. Yeah. No, I mean, again, like get off zero, right? Like that's the number one step. And then you start down the pathway of Bitcoin self-sovereignty and getting your own keys, all that good stuff.

So yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Julian, tossing it to you. Any final thoughts? Where can people find you and recommendations? Final thoughts. Well, thanks so much for having me on. It's awesome to listen, you know, hear both your guys's stories and thoughts on things.

I wish you could go deeper into this. I'm so interested in like the political side of what's going on in the States. I watch American politics as a Canadian. It's kind of like my Super Bowl because I'm not in a sports. But yeah, it'd be cool. I think Ben or someone mentioned that it'd be really cool to have like a Bitcoin or streaming panel during the midterms. I'd be so down for something like that. It's not a bad idea, actually.

Yeah, just stream it or something and then, I don't know, be fun. Where can people find me? You can look me up on YouTube, Twitter, TikTok, Instagram. It's kinetic finance. I'll be the guy who's posting one minute. stories. I've been doing a lot of these every Monday and Thursday and try and make like a one-minute video either talking about Bitcoin or just like a normal money concept and trying to make it so it's just shareable. So you can just send to your friends and teach people through that. I find

it's just a good way to reach out to people. But yeah, I also do documentaries. I have other live show or I just go off, but it's not that great. It's getting there though. What do I recommend to people? So this is difficult. It depends where you are on your Bitcoin journey, but I'll kind of like give my three recommendations based on like, you know, you know, beginner. I don't know much about Bitcoin to intermediate. I know about it. I want to learn more to like I'm deep in the hole and I want, you know, more stuff to build on my conviction.

If you are new to Bitcoin, first of all, buy some Bitcoin. It depends where you live. But if you're in the, if you're in the U.S., I do recommend cash app and then shake pay if you're in Canada because it's the easiest way to just get set up, buy it. move it to an offline wallet, moon wallet, donate it maybe through lightning and just see how all that stuff works. So that's what I recommend for beginners. Intermediate people, if you're into Bitcoin, you get the technical side, you get some of the monetary side. I really recommend just going to WTF happen in 1971 and then just seeing where that takes you because I went to

that website. It basically compiles a bunch of things that have happened since the US went off the gold standard, but you can keep finding these things pop up if you ever are just like into stats and stuff. Political division is one that I thought was really interesting. Once 40 years prior to 1971, you know, there are quite a bit of moderates on both sides. And then as soon as we went off the gold standard, you can really start to see every election further and further, you know, to each corner of the political spectrum. And then advanced, if you've already read the Bitcoin standard, which I imagine a lot of people have, I highly recommend the Fiat standard. Safety is like a little bit ruthless sometimes, but the sections that he has on Fiat science, how so much of, you know,

research papers and academia is influenced through the endless money spigot going to universities. It really is an eye-opener. And that whole book is just fantastic. So I highly recommend checking that one out as well. Awesome. I love it, man. All right. Well, guys, thank you so much.

I really appreciate your time. I'm so glad you guys all made it out. this is a great chat. Of course, everybody watching all of their Twitter handles are listed in these show notes down below. And with those Twitter handles, you can obviously find everything else that they've been working on. So to all of you, again, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. And you're all welcome back anytime.

Thanks a much, man. It's super fun. Thank you. All right. Appreciate it. Peace. Light show for the guests. Yeah.

Thank you guys. Awesome. All right. And everybody watching. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate all of you and your time. Everybody, that's been in the chat and watching all night. Thank you very very much for being here.

Of course, like, subscribe, share, all those things are indeed super important. They really do help get the show in front of more eyeballs. You can also do a couple of other things to help out the show. Of course, you can hit the previously mentioned sponsors down below. That was Coin Kite ShakePay. leaden bit refill and Bill Fottle at Privacypros.com. They're all down here. And if you really liked what you saw, I can always hit me up with a Bitcoin tip at my strike

page. That's strike.me slash BTC sessions. You go there, you type in any amount you want. Hit the tip button, you'll be greeted with a lightning invoice. Or if you so choose, you can tap the arrow to the right and you'll get a regular Bitcoin QR code. With that, I'm out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening. And I will see you guys next.

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