BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? JoeyTweets, Mario Gibney, Bobby Shell, Len ep215

Episode Date: November 14, 2021

FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS: https://twitter.com/iBobbyShell https://twitter.com/Mario_Gibney https://twitter.com/JoeyTweeets/photo https://twitter.com/TheBTCPriceBot 💪 SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shakepay is the easiest way to buy Bitcoin in Canada Sign up now and get $10 free after your first $100 purchase! https://shakepay.me/r/BTCSESSIONS LEDN Bitcoin backed loans –  get $10 free with a savings balance of $75 or more for 15 consecutive days! https://start.ledn.io/btcsessions Get Wasabi wallet for Bitcoin privacy https://wasabiwallet.io/ Keystone Wallet: secure your Bitcoin! http://bit.ly/KeyStoneSessions BillFodl: get your wallet backups in solid steel. https://privacypros.io/btcsessions Bitrefill: use Bitcoin to purchase gift cards, earn sats back while you shop. https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/?code=O04UMic9 BITCOIN tips: https://strike.me/btcsessions

Wasabi wallet and fairly private. What is going on, everybody? Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish. We've got a fun group with us today. We've got largely Canadians. We've got one American who has some regulatory nuance to answer for today. But we're going to be chatting about a whole bunch of stuff.

You know, we've seen some ups and downs of the price as of lately. But again, I think people are very short-sighted in that they'll see the price. They'll get used to the all-time high in about three seconds. And as soon as it goes below that, the sky is falling. So chill the fuck out, everybody. It's okay. We're going to make it through. All right?

As always, this is live. Anything can happen. I defer to my good friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live.

The fucking thing sucks. If you haven't already, make sure you like, subscribe, share, all those things really help. And let's get rolling. Without further ado, I'm Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. All right, before we bring in our panel, let's take a look at where we are in the market right now. up the Bitbo.io dashboard. We're sitting at $64,060 per coin,

single dollar, U.S. dollar in particular. Got to clarify, lots of Canadians in the room. U.S. dollar will pick you up 1,561 sats. 89.86% of all Bitcoin have been mined. That'll be 90 before a year end. And in terms of fees, we're looking at about nine sats per byte to get into the next block. If you're willing to wait, just a tiny bit,

one sat per byte will do you. You can see the, the, earlier today, the, oh, no, no, ETF. And then anyways, and then we just kind of continued on our way. So, you know, it is what it is. When in doubt, zoom out. Seven day looks pretty good. Month has been fantastic. You're to date.

Guys, what are you crying about? Relax. We're fine. Yeah, of course. Anyways, of course, shout out to sponsors to the show, shakepay.com if you're not stacking sats there and you're in Canada. What are you doing? It's pretty goddamn easy. It's super awesome, actually.

No deposit fees, no withdrawal fees. Really super thin margins. Some of the best rates in Canada from what I've experienced. Killer referral program. You can shake your phone every day for free sats. The referral program right now is 30 bucks for new signups. I don't know how long that's lasting, but, um, Yeah, get on it. It's super easy.

Links for them are down below. Of course, Ledin, we've got one of our good friends from Ledin here today. Mario with the beautiful hair, you'll be seeing him momentarily. Get your eyeballs ready. Ledden, you can use them for a variety of different services. In particular, myself, if I'm ever in a pinch, I need dollars, and I don't want to sell my Bitcoin because why would you want to do that? Then, of course, you can use their Bitcoin back loans, deposit Bitcoin,

get dollars to your bank account within 24 hours, pay back those dollars. get back the same number of sats, and that's the important number. Of course, also savings for Bitcoin and USDC. They've got their B2X offering if you're feeling mega bullish. Links are all down below. Check them out. I do live on Bitcoin. Bit refill helps a ton with this.

All the gift cards you can imagine. You can buy them with Bitcoin. So, again, if you're living on that Bitcoin standard, this is a godsend. You can pay main chain, lightning. You earn sats back as you shop. And they've also got a pretty good referral program, too. Check them out in the links below. So Keystone, you know these guys, my favorite and most used hardware wallet.

I love it. It's air-gapped, meaning you never plug it into anything internet connected. It's all done offline via QR code. That keeps the keys to your money, safe and away from potentially malicious internet connections. Also pretty badass in a multi-sig. So check it out. And finally, if you're backing up any important hardware wallet, yeah, paper, probably not the best bet. Fire damage, water damage.

You know the drill. I've heard some horror stories. I tend to back up everything on solid steel. Bill Fottle over at Privacy Pro's got you cover it. Check them out. Let's stop my rambling here. And let's get some guests in the room. We got Len.

We got Bobby. We got Joey. We got Mario. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Let's do a little round of introductions. Basically, who you are, what you do. I'm just going to go to the order I see on my screen. So let's go, Len.

Dude, introduce yourself. I'm Len. I'm co-host of the Canadian Bitcoiners podcast. I've been around a Bitcoin world not too long in some people's eyes and long, too long in other people's eyes. I came just before a big pump in 2017 and I've been around ever since. And man on man, it's been a wild ride and I'll absolutely love it. So keep stacking people. Keep stacking.

I think a full cycle gives you a moderate OG status, I'd say. I'll give you that one for sure. Bobby, how about you? Introduce yourself, friend. What's up? My name's Bobby. I'm the VP of marketing at Voltage. And I've been a bit coiner for over one cycle, so we're back at it.

Awesome, man. Well, I'm glad to have you here. Mario, how's your hair, first of all? How are you doing? Hair's doing wonderful, as always. Perfect. I just grow it out for my good friend Dave Bradley, who loves it. Yeah.

I think he drew a correlation. He said something along the lines of the length of hair of most individuals that directly correlated with their inclination towards socialism. Yeah, I think it was, yeah, if you're a guy, the longer hair you have, the more like you ought to be a communist. If you're a girl, the shorter your hair is, the more likely you already be a communist. Mario, the Bitcoin Communist. That's me.

Yeah, I am, I'm director of community. at Leden, that's LEDN.io, and where you can earn interest on your Bitcoin and USDC. Yeah, I'm basically doing the spiel. You did it all for me already. Yeah, man. I've used to have them to explain to your listeners what Lennon is, but you've ruined it. All right. No, you did a great job.

I will show our referral program. We do have a brand new referral program out there, 10 USDC each to refer, and a new person signing up, and we're doing a one Bitcoin giveaway in November. So everybody, if you, from select countries, including Canada, and a bunch of Latin American countries if every person you refer this month increases your chance to win one Bitcoin. So there you go.

I'm also the co-host of the Unhashed podcast. And yeah, I've been doing the Bitcoin thing for over half a decade now. Damn. That's awesome. Dude, awesome to have you again. And let's toss it down to the end of the line. Joey, introduce yourself.

Thanks, Ben, for having us on. And Mario, for maybe making that happen, the facilitator in the background there. Len and I co-host the Canadian Bicorners podcast. It's been going now for just over seven months. Len is the one-man band on the research side, and I am the one-man band on the rant side. So together we've been doing that for some time.

Len and I are good friends outside of work too and outside of the pod. So yeah, happy to be here. Looking forward to tonight's chat, everybody. Awesome. Well, I'm glad to have you all. those of you watching that are unfamiliar, pretty simple premise here. Why are we bullish?

That's the title of the show. So we go by the three R's. Somebody's going to give a reason why they're feeling bullish this week or in general. We're all going to riff on that reason together. And then we'll rotate to the next person. So really, really simple premise. I'm going to get us started today.

And mine's kind of, I guess, this reason, it's not a new reason, but, you know, especially evident today, I'm bullish because Bitcoin doesn't need an ETF. If people look back, this is just kind of another, I guess, fud item. And it's not even really fud item, but it's, it's another thing that people were anticipating and putting money on the table for certain expectations. And then they see it dissuaded down We were not getting a spot to ETF in the States for a bit, at least. The Vanek one got rejected today. And so you saw a price dip for a little bit.

But they've been they've been busy rejecting Bitcoin ETFs in the States since 2013. So this is really, really nothing too new. You know, we've had more or the last eight years of this. I do find it funny that Canada has how many ETFs now? Do you guys know? Over 10. Over 10. It's low double digits.

It's like 11, 12, 13, something like that. That's insane. Bobby, are you like grinding your teeth down there? I put my mouth guard in before this. So, yeah. It does seem a tad funny that they would. And I know that there's. they have their their reasons.

But it does seem a tad funny that they'd allow for the futures and not allow for for a spot ETF where consumers just, I mean, clearly people want to get exposure to Bitcoin in through traditional markets. And people are doing that in a variety of less effective ways like buying micro strategy or or trying to use some of these close end funds. like GBT or or jumping through hoops to get access to the Canadian market or or some of the other markets out there. I really don't know why why they're not approving this yet.

They've stated that there's they can't be certain that there won't be manipulation of the Bitcoin price, which I mean, yeah. So regardless, Bitcoin does not need a Bitcoin. Bitcoin ETF to be successful right out there, but also beyond that, Bitcoiners that are out there and were maybe a little sad or angry about this, consider this just a little bit of extra runway to stack some stats, because really that's what it's giving us. So stack those sets while you still can, because a spot ETF in the US, in my opinion, will have impact on the Bitcoin price.

So anyways, I'll open it up to you guys. General thoughts about this, about the ETF being swatted down, anything you want to throw in, anybody jump in. Yeah, no, you're bang on. And the reason why you mentioned one company, micro strategy, that's a pseudo-ETF right now. And it's kind of following,

it's very much following the price of Bitcoin, and in fact, it's exceeding it. Other reason why it's not needed, you have opportunities to buy into companies that are directly or indirectly exposed to Bitcoin, like mining companies, Bitcoin mining companies. And if you look at the output in terms of the price versus Bitcoin, if you look at a chart, miners, they tend to outperform the price of Bitcoin as well. So the opportunity exists to really increase your wealth by putting your money into right

equities, into right ETFs and the right stocks like micro strategy and a Bitcoin mining company and it will outperform Bitcoin's price, plain and simple. Do you think that goes away as soon as there's a spot ETF in the States? Like, does micro strategy kind of take a hit because people were using it as a vehicle to get exposure to Bitcoin and then suddenly they don't need that? That's all but guaranteed, I think. Hey, Len? I look at like the, even, even, even, even Mike Saylor when he does, when he does press,

he will discuss how the reason. that, you know, part of the reason his company's equity price has really gone through the roof over the last year or so is because of that Bitcoin move. And so he realizes, I think, the people are using that as an ETF. I wouldn't be surprised seeing micro strategy take a bit of a dive because once he loses that sort of first mover advantage, that little bit of extra help he's getting, it's going to be a cult of personality around Saylor, which is okay. You know, there's a cult of personality around a lot of CEOs. But when you invest in equities, you're basically buying a derivative of whoever the CEO or board, what they think and

but they do, right? So that might be okay. I just don't, to your point, Ben, and Len, I hate to disagree with you. I just, I think the spot, oh, whatever, we can talk about it later. Me and you will get a divorce. The thing about the spot ETS is that they're, they're a way, I think, to distract maybe too strong a term, but like it's, it's not something you should be relying on. I think the people who are buying spot ETFs are missing the point, right? And we kind of talk about that. I know all of us on Twitter discuss these sorts of things and talk about how important it is to buy the underlying and self-custody and sort of meet the ethos head on when it comes to Bitcoin. So I'm not that worried about it. I'd be curious as to what the American amongst

us thinks about the ETF being swatted down yet again. I saw a comment in the chat. ETF stands for every try fails, which I thought was pretty good. But you guys have been going out of it for a while. It's over and over again. You get the metambo. It never stops. Yeah, I was in a group chat with Hester Pearson, Gary, earlier today, and they just said, ha, ha, and then it said they left the chat, and I was just like, less a rude thing to do. But yeah, I mean, to your point, you know, Stackmore Sat, self-custody, and what we'll see happen probably is Michael Saylor, other corporations, they're going to come out at it to their balance sheet, which, you know, really encourages people to take a step further in buying these, you know, synthetic variations or derivatives,

like you said. And I really hope that forces Gary to make the decision to, you know, allow the ATF. But my thought is when Pomp did the podcast or whoever, with the two Bloomberg guys who kind of speak about the ETF on Twitter, the two leading guys, they were making the difference between the 1930 Act and the 1940 Act. And apparently there's less crap with the 1940 act. I'm sure Lynn knows more about this than I do. But the technicality of that, it just seems like a way to posture himself or keep his job longer so that he can wiggle the way through. And he needs to come in guns blazing and give the American market. It's the freedom to get into this time.

What about you, Mario? Any thoughts to end ziffs or butts about this? Oh, man, finances my wheelhouse. But I'm, I just, my best of luck to the Americans down south and trying to catch up with us. That's all. We need it. Thoughts and prayers. Isn't it true that you guys think that, like, I know I'm, I'm tooting this horn all the time,

basically to everyone I can, including with people I barely know, that GBTC is going to be the first ETF because there's so much. You've got a sign of a sidewalk, don't? Yeah, man, I got a tattoo. I can't show you. Otherwise, there's not going to be any advertising on this. But the thing I would just say is that there's a lot of damage to be done to people who invested in GBTC as a closed-end fund like you mentioned, Ben. And the capture that's involved or was involved at the time when GBTC went public, that was an enormous effort.

This was before Bitcoin was really as mainstream as it is now, obviously. It goes without saying. And so to penalize GBTC for doing what they were supposed to do at the time, because an ETF was not even in the realm of possibility. It just doesn't work like that, I don't think. And so I would be surprised if anyone got approval, including, you know, obviously Vanek is a huge name in ETF, huge name in equities.

If they're getting swatted down, I think the only rational thing to think is that it's going to be GBTC who gets the first kick if they can. And I don't know when that'll be, but it seems to me like that's the most likely outcome. I saw the final decision for them, I thought was coming up like next, next year sometime. correct in saying that?

Wow. Yeah. I think like I want to say May or June of next year. It's like a six to nine month to later, right? Oh my God. But it's interesting enough that we have some other companies. They filed application for ETF. They didn't block five file one just recently.

It was co-application with some other company. Am I wrong in that? Just even thinking about that, we should do the Canadian Bitcoiners spot ETF. We should file an application to see if we get that one approved. and see if we could put a little bit of money in that as well, see if we get approved before everybody else. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm trying to find there was an outline of all of the ETSs that are on the table.

There's a lot of them just kind of sitting, waiting for this. But I would be, I'm inclined to. Harty mentions December 24th. December 24th, December 24th. That's the close date. I don't know. I don't know if that's what it is, but it wouldn't surprise me. I've seen that list, Ben.

It's like there's a Bloomberg terminal screenshot of all depending Bitcoin ETFs. And it's like it reads like the Old Testament. Like it's just taxed on tax, on tax, on taxes. And the list is going to keep growing because it's obvious the market wants it, right? Maybe they never approve it. It just becomes a right of passage at every Bitcoin company has to have an application for Bitcoin ETF. It's just waiting in limbo. Yeah.

It doesn't matter if you actually would be able to do it. It's just like, oh, we're a wallet company. Yeah, you know, because they know it's not going to get improved. You don't have to deal with any of the, you know, followed efforts, right? It can be like, you know, there's two things you need to do as a Bitcoin company. You donate money to Bitcoin open source development and you just have a pending ETF application. I think that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just, I like it. Josh Swanson actually writes a very good point there. What's the point of a Bitcoin ETF when you could just buy Bitcoin as an asset? So over here in Canada, there is, you know, there's, there's some. ideas to actually put in a TFSA and you could keep whatever capital gains you get out of it versus if you actually buy the asset itself where you could be subjected to taxation and capital gains if you sell it or trade it for anything else.

So I'm not sure in the States what's the application for having a Bitcoin ETF? What's the bullish case for that? I mean, you could put it in like an IRA or something, I imagine. You could have it in certain tax sheltered vehicles in some way. So like if you're not, if you're not like a hardcore bitcoiner, it's like, yes, self-custody is what I want and, and, you know, all of the self-sovereignty kind of ethos checklist that that we go through. And you just see this asset that is appreciating so much year over year and, and has the potential of swallowing, you know, a large portion of the, the market cap of gold and, and plenty of other vehicles that people park their money in. because the money right now is so bad, then maybe, yeah,

maybe you just want exposure and you want it in a way where you get to capture all of those gains without the tax implications. So, I mean, that's a possibility, right? Because here in Canada, you could put it in a TFSA, right? Like through your TFSA, you can get access to,

and you've got, I can't remember what the limit in Canada, is per year that you're right now 6,000 so in totality if you're old enough yeah it's 75 500 75, 500 that's the total limit if yeah so that's so that's retroactive so if you haven't put that much into your TFSA up to today you can now go back and put 75k worth of Bitcoin into a T in your TFSA and have no or yeah it's it's tax free tax free savings account so TFSA, you wouldn't be exposed to that, those capital gains taxes after that. So that could be, that could be attractive to people.

I get it. But I still, I like, I like the idea of not your keys, not your coins too. So could I convince you that part of the reason an ETF would be good, you know, in any basically first world country is that there's a lot of people in the retirement, you know, sort of realm that that's both people who are retired and people who manage money for retirees who are limited in what they can invest in due to regulatory burdens. So, for example, if you were to see an ETF approved in America, you would see, and I don't want to cut on my own, you know, cut on my own, why are we bullish point, but you would see that a lot of people who

are in bonds, for example, would reallocate some of that money from fixed income, whether it's gold or bonds or cash to Bitcoin. They can't do that, you know, as much as you made, as much you may be comfortable with it. People in this chat, people in the comments may be comfortable with it. You're never going to convince a family office or a manager of some other nature to go to Coinbase and say, okay, look, I need some OTC help here. I have 200K that I want to use. But I think it's only a matter of time because those people are going to realize at some point that the portfolio, the 6040 isn't working. The 6040, two things, right? One, it's built for retiring at 65 and living till 75.

And now people are retiring at 55 and living till 90. That's one problem. The other problem is that the bonds, you know, even the highest risk bonds, shout out to my man Massa Capital on Twitter who showed me this. But even the highest risk bonds now are lower yielding than the U.S. inflation print. And if you think the U.S. inflation print is legit, then for the first time now, you're seeing, I know everyone's laughing.

It's obviously not legit. It's like ridiculous. But if you think the inflation print is legit, for the first time now, the bonds you're allocated into at the highest level of risk, aren't matching inflation. That's a wake-up call for a lot of people. And so those family offices and other high net worth sort of individuals and groups are having to answer questions for the first time about why is my money guaranteed,

like why am I in these guaranteed losses every single year while this thing is absolutely fucking flying. Can I swear I didn't even ask if I can swear. You can say whatever the fuck you want. Oh. Yeah. So well, this other thing is flying. You can't tell me that bonds are a good idea.

And I think a lot of people too, you know, I think about my own situation with my father's, he's in this mid-60s. You know, if he's asking me about it, how many other people's fathers are asking them about it? There's a lot of people probably, you know, my age, mid-30s who are, you know, talking to their parents about these sorts of new assets because they're more, they're more widely available and more mainstream than they've ever been before. And 13 years is a long time for something to gain legitimacy, right? Bitcoin's been around for about that long. So you're going to see, you're going to see demand go up. And the ETF is the first sort of Trojan horse to get people from zero to ETF exposure to self-custody.

It's not that big a gap, not that big a gap. What's the dynamic here with, you know, because U.S. consumers can't just go out and get the ETF. But we're seeing all these things like what Scaramucci and his, what's his company again? Skybridge, is that it? Skybridge. Yeah, and they're plugging in with all these banks to make it so that you can just get Bitcoin through your bank, like directly into an account with your bank.

As that starts to roll out, does that make this rejection of a spot ETF even more ridiculous? Or is it still like, you know, the institutional side of things? They're just trying to avoid that temporarily. my assumption is retirement accounts are probably just more complicated because they sat there for so long there's so much money in there where a bank you can withdraw it easily you know there's less tax involved in a bank but there will but if bitcoin goes up they're obviously going to tax it right but i think integrating with a standard bank especially like on local levels where banks have freedom credit unions too it may be easier but yeah with how much money is locked up in retirement i kind of agree with joey like uh they would there would be massive money shifts there and that's probably not good for the system in general and i I bet that's one reason why they're delaying it. But also these ETF holders, they're probably loading their own bags before the launch. So they have some that they don't have to put in the fun, but then they start the fun and they got a bunch of their own bag. But yeah, like there's a lot of family offices, though.

Like, I work in commercial real estate and I have a lot of friends who own like big apartment complexes and like they raise money from family offices. And family offices are actually right now learning about self custody, talking to people like unchained, like just holding their own keys. So that's really exciting. That's super awesome. Well, hey, let's, you know, we'll see. I'm going to, I like Joey's guess about the GBTC being the first one. If BTC Hardy and the chat is correct about it being 24th, that'd be an interesting little Christmas gift for Bitcoiners to get.

So we'll see. We'll see what happens there. But regardless, time will tell you. And in the end, Bitcoin itself doesn't need it. It's not stopping me from stacking more stats. So, hey, it is what it is. So let's roll on to the next topic. Everybody in the chat, thanks for dropping all your comments and everything.

Keep them coming. And if you haven't already, like, share, all those good things. Let's jump. Let's jump to Len. Len, what has you excited this week? What are you bullish about? Cop 23. what happened over there

they've earmarked $150 trillion to fight climate change but before I even go there I'm just going to go into the weeds so essentially the wealth flowing into BTC kind of goes hand in hand with the debasing of the US dollars so there's $150 trillion that they're earmarking

for climate change it makes me so bullish that there's going to be more money that's going to come into BTC A hundred, wait, wait, 150 trillion I'll get there I'm going to have a blackout moment and I apologize for that I believe it. I believe it's over 30 years.

Correct. So that makes it okay. How many dollars exist right now? I'll get to that. So if you look at BTC right now, it's measured against the U.S. dollar. So whatever we talk about BTC and the price of BTC, it's always up against the U.S. dollar. And one thing I do, I love numbers.

So let's talk about right now the U.S. trade deficit. And they have right now, they've reported a record of their trade deficit reached 80. $80 billion for the month of September. $80 billion. That's a lot of money. And it's pretty bad and it's unsustainable, but it gets worse, man. It gets worse. Look at the Fed's balance sheet.

It was $4.3 trillion when we first started this whole mess back in March 2020. I'm not going to say what it is, the mess. And here we are as of November. The balance sheet is at $8.5 trillion. Effectively doubled the balance sheet in 20 months. servicing this debt is going to be a massive problem. They're going to need to print money today to pay the interest for tomorrow. And we always throw the word trillion around.

Trillion seems like nothing nowadays because we've been desensitized. I'm going to give you a little bit of background here. If I give you $1 million every day for 2,000 years, it doesn't equate to $1 trillion. That is insane. One million seconds ago was only 11 days ago. One billion seconds ago was only 31 years ago. 1 trillion seconds ago, 32,000 years ago. That was an ice age.

That's where we have extinct animals roaming the earth. But that gives us the measuring stick what we're dealing with. We also have a 1.75 trillion that they're going to be spending in the United States for social spending and a climate bill. It's money just going to be pouring out of the money printer. And if you think on a global level that other countries have a whole of spending, well, I got something to tell you. The number of nations, the leaders that went to, they flock to Cope 23 in Glasgow, that was for the climate summit, they went there to talk about climate and try to fight climate change. And I'm not against that.

I mean, we live in an earth that just finite amount of material here. You know, the climate is changing. So I'm with this spirit of what they're trying to achieve. But how they're trying to achieve it, I don't agree with it. And they're going to be allocating $150 trillion over a span of 30 years. That's $5 trillion a year for 30 years. years. And they always talk about unrealized capital gains tax, but the money printer will be using unrealized toners to print the money that has to be issued for that. It's going to be insane.

And I advise you, if you want to invest in the company that's going to make money, it's the company that's administering that money printer. It's going to go, that company is going to make bank or node from this contract for servicing it. But to give you an idea what $150 trillion is, the world GDP for 2020, for the whole world, was $84 trillion. So the $150 trillion that their earmarking for this is nearly double the world GDP for two years. How is that sustainable? That will obliterate fiat currency. And there's no way the price of Bitcoin doesn't go up.

They're going to be adding zeros at the end of everything we buy just to make things work in the end. Inflation is going to go through the roof. What are you going to do? They're not going to park money in cash. They're not going to keep it in gold or other precious metals. Bonds, the only people buying bonds are the only thing buying bonds are. central banks.

Equities, maybe, unless you want to invest in Tesla and hope it to continue to go to their roof. I don't buy it

though. Eventually you got to park your money in BTC. BTC has been maturing a faster rate because of what's

going on with politicians. They're putting on these ideas and they're sinking in money in all these pet projects

and we are absolutely screwed. That's why I'm bullish on BTC. BTC is the best way to park your money

and hedge yourself against this massive inflation. Well, this has been a great show everybody. Len brought

the receipts so we're just going to wrap it up here. Jesus, dude. Damn, that was insane. All of those things make me very bullish. 150 trillion. And when you think about that, that's just what they're doing, they're basically running through just for the purpose of fighting climate change. This isn't like to run the rest of the you know the countries on earth of their regular day to day to day needs this is just specifically to fight climate change they know they can't control the climate that's why they need as much money as possible but guys no when as soon as you print money that changes the weather though that does that's that's that how it works I think so but like that's an insane number I'm really

excited for the irrelevant rap music where they're like, I'm getting zeros in my bank account. And they're like, well, they don't mean anything, dude. You know? Oh, my God. Do we know what the yearly spend on climate change related items is now? Like, I can't imagine it's a large percentage of global GDP. So, like, what I don't know. Like how much money would have to exist for it to, let's say they wanted to 10x their contribution to what they're allocating for climate change over this period that they've earmarked these funds for.

You know, what would I could, we'll have to do some quick math for next show or something. It looks like in 2017 across 19 agencies in 2017, yeah, $13.2 billion. So that's just what Top of Google says 13 billion That doesn't even seem like that big a number That doesn't even seem like that big a number Yeah

That's a far cry from what you said now They're balance sheet at 8.7 $8.5 trillion dollars So that is just a It's like a drop in the ocean Yeah I love that we're one order of magnitude away from using the number quadrillion

That's like we got we have an extra syllable on there That's when stuff starts getting real nice when we start seeing quadrillions in the news. I just don't, I don't understand how, like, if you're, even if you're someone who thinks that this, like these conferences have an impact, right? How do you sell to, if you're a politician, right, you're one of these guys who's flipping coins over their shoulder,

wishing for the climate to get better at the end of the conference for an Instagram post. Like, is it, is it like an easy sell for your electorate? It can't be. Like, who is that picture where there, They're flipping coins into the fountain for. Who looks at that picture and is like, this is why I go to the ballot box. Because this fucking guy looks real good.

He's flipping pennies. Like, who's it for? Who is voting for that? I can make this case, man, because like a lot of people haven't heard, like, landed a great job breaking down how these numbers, like the massive differences between them. But like for most people, like myself included, when you say like $150 trillion to me, I have no, like, I don't have any intuitive sense of how that's different from, like, from $15 trillion. Even though I, like, I can tell you it's 10 times more.

But I have to do, like, quite a bit of mental math before I get to the point where I realize, okay, what's the percentage, like compared to, you know, like, you know, how much like debt there is. You kind of have to run them up and crunch the numbers yourself, yourself. And I would expect there's a decent number of people who won't do that for, like, headlines they read, for example. You know, I, that's going to be part of it. I think there's also been like, you know, I don't make any secret of it that I think climate change is a real problem that we need to do something about. But I think that it's been like way oversold. Like, you know, you got these like extinction rebellions and like people who think that like, you know, human race is going extinct in 10 and 20 years. And I'm like, well, let's not, you know, it could just because it's a problem, we don't have to go that far.

But if you actually believe that, then kind of no amount of money is too much to spend on it. So, yeah, I mean, it's going to vary place to place to place. but I'm not, yeah, they'll find ways to sell it. We're all just shaking our heads. Like, I don't know, Len, like you really, like Ben said, you brought all the receipts there. We may as well wrap it up. I just don't know.

Again, like, I don't know. I don't know. To your point, Mario, and I get a lot of shit for this on our program about how I rag on ESG and I rag on whatever, these renewables, all this stuff. It's not, you're right. There is a problem. Okay. It's obvious that we can't.

consume on some exponential scale forever. It doesn't make any sense in any, you know, any rational person's mind. But then I think about, you know, the pictures of like the jets coming in. And I think like there's there's not that big a gap. Okay. It's not a canyon size logical jump from everything we do is contributing to this thing ending, this whole ride and experiment ending in 10 years to wait a minute. If it's ending in 10 years, why'd you take the plane when the rest of us are on Zoom all the time anyway? Like this is this is the gap that I think a lot people like to your point have a problem getting to. And I worry that and this is kind of the case for Bitcoin too, people who aren't into Bitcoin or refuse to get into it. There's like an investment

here that a lot of people are unwilling to say was misallocated in their personality, in the way they talk about climate change, in the way they've discussed how important it is. You know, they're going to extinction rebellions. There's a story out of Canada you may have seen. I think it was near neck of the woods, Ben, where someone was diagnosed with a climate change injury at a hospital. He's got, don't fall out of your chair. Don't fall out of your chair. Okay. So, first of many, my friend. It's going to be the first of many. So like these things, these things are coming harder and faster. It's accelerating. I just think, man, you know, this is a real failure of logic to see one and understand that there's maybe an environmental problem.

We should be allocating resources to solve. And then thinking that the way to solve it is, you know, for us Canadians, that there's a sticker on the pumps now in Canada, at least in Ontario, that shows you the graded tax increases on your fuel. And so I think Len and Mario, you guys can help me with this because I don't remember. But Bobby, basically there's like, it's like, you know, 50 cents on the leader more or less. It's a carbon tax. For carbon tax. Yeah.

And it just keeps going up and up and up. And I just think like people who have to drive to work are going to get crushed by this. Like they don't care about ESG in this respect, right? This is a hard thing for them to stomach. They can't just be at home on their computer, right? Yeah, blue collar is going to get burned. because they have to go to work, everyone else working remote. But I think I always make this joke, accountability begins with A, the first letter of the alphabet,

because it's the most important thing in the world. And if you think about it, what do people love to do? Cast a vote and then they don't give a shit. What do people do when it comes to working out? They go to the gym once and they think they've changed their life. It gets no result. And you can almost apply that to anything in life. Like it takes repetition.

And I think when it comes to like our government and just leadership, you have to hold them accountable, you know, without good employees that speak up. What are leaders going to know what to do? You know, it operates like bottom up. Like the leaders have to listen to the people to create the result. And I just think people just are not holding leadership accountable. Are we going to hold them accountable when they emitted more carbon with the jets that they used to fly in to Glasgow than the whole of Scotland does in a year? And it's insane.

And all they did, they did that for the sole purpose to throw shit coins in a pool and take a photo and it for a photo opportunity. I think that's something that we should be holding them to task. and I don't think we're going to be doing so. And in the whole process, they're going to spend $150 trillion over 30 years. Nobody's batting an eye about this. Nobody doesn't seem to be talking. There's no accountability. And it's just, yeah, like the whole education system, like they don't, like, they don't teach the important things.

You know, everyone talks about this. But it's just, it takes, you know, people like you guys willing to bring this up and have this conversation. And hopefully it changes someone's life and they go read about it. They're like, holy cow. And then they share it and share it. You know, we all got to plant the seed. We're saving everyone. it's us guys.

This conversation right here. It's definitely part of it. It's definitely part of it. I think about without doxing myself, like the place where I work, there's a lot of things I wouldn't be as comfortable saying as I am saying here. You know your faces on the screen, right?

It's okay. It doesn't matter. Just making sure we knew. It's fine. It's fine. If we ever get popular enough that people are doxing me at work, then it won't matter.

I'll quit the job anyway. So the thing about open conversations like this, and this is why Twitter's important, it's why Clubhouse and the spaces are important and podcasts and YouTube videos. The way to communicate and to build groundswell for accountability is through stuff like this. Because the first time you explain to somebody that a trillion seconds ago, there was dinosaurs, that's when they start to realize that, okay, maybe a trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.

And what you're seeing now, I think, in a lot of places, is this. this like a shift or an opening in the zeitgeist for inflation for fiat for things that no way man if you ask somebody about fiat myself included in 2015 i would have said yeah yeah those shitty little cars i guess i don't know like i don't know anything about fiat but now everywhere i look i think this whole thing is built on it's like a house of cards built on a sandcastle man like and and to lenz point you know these guys they don't the thing that bothers me the most and mario maybe you can comment on this because it seems to be something you've given a little more thought to to me, but the thing that bothers me the most is that it's obvious in the actions of

the people who tell you that you have to change that they're not going to change and they don't care. That's the most frustrating thing. And it's not just on climate change. That's the case. It's almost universally with these little policies for what they view as little people. It's frustrating. This note, it's about to pop up.

It's about to pop up. But it says stop using their money by Bitcoin in the comments. Like my thesis is there's going to be a point where they're going to try to say you cannot go off the ramp of the bank into Bitcoin. When we see that happen, you know there's like, it's making a dent to the real financial system. So in my mind, whether you're buying non-KYC or KYC, it's better to get it now and put it in cold storage. So you have it when this random event happens where they're like, yo, we got to stop letting people move their money from banks. That's when you know it's very serious. CBDCs, we did one that actually stops money flowing into Bitcoin. They could actually

somehow set it up in such a way that money cannot be used to buy Bitcoin, enter into an exchange, et cetera. So that's the scary part. Well, the CBDCs, I mean, feasibly you would have, what, an account with, an account with a central bank, and then that account or that digital wallet you'd be able to, I mean, would you be able to give your friend money? Is that, would you be able to send your CBDC to a person that you know? Like, I guess it would depend on that because in that world, it makes something like BISC, you know, pretty feasible. It makes it like, oh, you know, anybody that has a Canadian CBDC wallet, I can easily instantly send you dollars that way. They'll show up and then you send me Bitcoin

like through the escrow mechanism. And all the central bank sees is, oh, you know, Alice paid Bob 50 bucks. And there's no linkage of was that there. There was that there. was something else to the transaction. So, I mean, yeah, maybe they'd have algorithms studying what you do and, and well, why are you paying Bob 50 bucks, you know, once a week? So maybe, but I feel like it's meant as a mechanism of more control. But I think that the ease of use of something like that will actually be a little bit of an Achilles heel in the agenda of central banks of having that control.

So if anyone wants to like dive deep on CBDCs, there's a really, really great article written by Bitmex research on their blog. Just, you know, look up Bitmex research, central bank digital currency. And they do a fantastic job of breaking it down because I was kind of confused at like what the point of CBDC was because I was like, oh, no, is it going to be like, you know, digital money control by the government? We've had that for decades. And what's new.

and I got directed to this and apparently there's like it's kind of a really vague idea because not everyone uses it in the same way but generally there's two kind of concepts it either means banning physical cash or it means allowing retail customers to have deposits directly with the central bank

and you're kind of cutting out the middleman and it's a really interesting how they break it down because they kind of conclude that that banning cash would increase credit expansion and the latter would cause contraction which surprised me but in the end like I don't want to, I mean, I almost don't want to give it away, but kind of I read this article and it came away and thought like, you know, I don't even think this is implementable.

It's just like I find that like if, you know, they might try to ban cash, in which case it's like, why are you even calling the CBDC? You've just banned cash. That's all you've done. But yeah, I would definitely give this a look if anyone wants to like, yeah, give it a deeper look. Is the problem with CBDCs potentially that they can like tweak monetary policy down to the individual level? this is the thing I've heard a bunch and it didn't resonate with me at first, Mario, because you're right, it seems like just a huge undertaking

to do something like that. But also I think about like, you know, on the back of protests in America last year, the number of banks that jumped in and said they were willing to ban gun sales, for example, or ban certain other, you know, vendors because of basically what amounts to political whims. So whatever you feel about the protests,

should your bank be allowed to tell you how to spend your money? Should Visa or MasterCard be allowed to tell you? Well, they were. And it seems to me that there's a pretty clear indication that central banks have, you know, a certain predisposition to allowing less freedom as opposed to more. I think that's a fair statement. And so if you give them that power and allow them to make those decisions for you at the individual level month to month,

well, you know, it may go okay. But, you know, nothing in the history of governments would tell you that they are going to use that power for good, I don't think, if given enough time and enough runway. That's really my bigger concern. The cash ban thing, and this is something that Bitcoiners talk about often, but I think that it's in the same, basically the same bracket as banning Bitcoin movement off exchanges. So not to jump on you there, Bobby, but it's like an admission of defeat. And if you start doing stuff like that, like if you really want to shake faith in your

currency, there's three things you can do. You can stop manipulating the gold, the gold price. with paper and derivatives and let it run to 5,000. You can tell people that they're not allowed to use cash anymore and you can ban Bitcoin in some way, one way or another. Those three things are really the things that are going to really shake the confidence in your currency more than anything else. So I don't know. I don't know if they'll do that, but it seems to me that it's, they may try and do the, what does that move with Harrison Ford where he's like, it's Indiana Jones, I think, where he's like placing CBDCs and pulling cash before anything happens.

Like that's sort of like the maneuver they're in now, right? Because they can't tell you they're getting rid of cash and banning it without giving you something basically instantly that's seamless in transition. I don't know. It's all, and this is the problem, right? It's all up in the air. There's no communication about what they're thinking.

But we're making inferences based on what we see around the world. And I hate to break it to people who don't think that we're correct. But if you look back at like the tweets from Bitcoin Twitter for three years, two years, maybe three years, four years on the outest, like the most outside limit, most of the stuff we thought was going to happen has more or less happened. The interest rate's going to zero. The bond's not being viable. The gold price being suppressed.

All that stuff. Like, it's continued, right? So we get a pretty good track record. Will it continue? I don't know. But it's good to prepare. That's for sure. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it doesn't sound like any of us are super confident about anything that the central banks are going to throw our way in the coming years. So I don't know. Stack those stats, guys. And Len, I've got to tip my hat to you again. You definitely came with the receipts today. So thank you for that talk. Anytime.

Awesome. Everybody in the chat, of course. Keep those comments coming. Like, share, all that good stuff. And let's keep it rolling. Bobby, you're up. What are you feeling this week? What are you excited for?

Yes. So I obviously, for those who like know me, I just started my role at voltage doing marketing. And I'm the first non-engineering role. So as a bitcoiner, you know, I know about Bitcoin. I know a little bit about lightning, but not on a technical level. But the more I'm around engineers, the more it's hard not to be bullish on lightning in these future layers of Bitcoin. And what's really exciting about that, like I was on a podcast just before this with a commercial real estate friend and we were talking about Bitcoin.

And basically, I was telling him about like layer two and layer three. And he was just like, huh. And he lives in Houston with the. the Houston Bitcoin meetup, and he used to work in oil and gas. So he's like, no shit. He's like, I got to get out there. I'm like, yeah, man. So I think there's going to be awareness coming to that.

And I was talking to one of our engineers yesterday, and his kind of thesis, he kind of called it a hot take, is majority of people are going to come to Bitcoin through layer two or layer three, how it's kind of natively integrated into apps and through programs. They might not buy on chain, but they'll use it. And they may not know it, just kind of like the internet. You know, you don't know what you're doing. But I'm bullish on lightning and, you know, what impervious. dot AI is doing. Like I'm just really pumped for everything going on on lightning and just got back

from the Bitcoin Atlanta conference. So I'll pause there and we can dive in. That was a blast. Can you give me some background on impervious? Yeah. So impervious, let me just pull up their website here a little bit. They actually just had a hackathon, but yeah, they're focused on the infrastructure to the P2P internet. I'll throw in the chat here you can share it. But yeah, like they're building right now an actual peer-to-peer internet browser too which is like super cool I think that's coming out Q1 they tweeted it's in their recent tweets in the last like two weeks but these guys are doing awesome work and there's gonna be no more layers being built but it's really cool to see like you can kind of think of it was it layer one we got the secure base chain

think of it kind of like the swift system layer two is lightning fast payments but you don't want to clog up fast payments with data transmission so layer three might be where all the data transmission goes down, where if you do want to have, like, decentralized streaming of video, you know, and there's riots and they try to take it off the centralized web. It's like, no, have it hosted here. We need the truth to get out or whatever, you know. So it's really cool to see, you know, what's going to be built on top.

The hackathon that they had was pretty wild. So somebody made a built on lightning. It was called Red Phone. And you could do an actual phone call via the Lightning Network that there would be no record of that phone call ever having taken place by any provider obviously. And they also did a file transfer, which used AMP or atomic multipath payments. So you have a point of origination and then you have a destination and it would find, it would basically split up the file into a whole bunch of little pieces and then it would send through multiple different channels that then reconvene back on the location that the

destination is and reassemble the file. So there's, like, there's just crazy shit that, that they're doing and using lightning. And I mean, messaging apps is like a pretty basic one, but there's,

there's a ton of interesting stuff that they can do through, yeah, somebody in the chat. Somebody in the chat. No, but file coin. Oh, somebody that runs up.

Tocons are worthless. I run. I run. a lightning note, and I too, I'm hugely bullish on lightning. I can see the potential in using it for quick and cheap settlements. And having somebody like Jack Dorsey also on board too, and implementing it on Twitter, that's a freaking amazing idea where you could tip people for ideas, for tweets, for whatever. And it just goes to show you that lightning or Bitcoin itself, there's an actual case use. It's not just strictly an asset where you park your money.

It's also a currency you can use to spend. And lightning is the way that you could easily spend Bitcoin. One thing is really interesting to me too is like, you know, you buy Bitcoin and it appreciates in value. But, you know, to us one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin, right? Like, what if you never actually spend it and you just use it for data transmission? Like, do you really owe taxes? You didn't buy anything with it. You're just using it as a data tool, you know?

So like, I think that's going to become a conversation later. But this is, it's way too premature to really talk about that. it's um yeah i mean there's there's and how much bitcoin would you really need to have to to utilize that right like i mean i i i don't know it's it's stuff because i don't know exactly how they're utilizing uh these these rails um for this infrastructure that they're building with like impervious and and a lot of these these concepts so i don't know i could didn't really comment to that point, but it is, it is one thing as, again, as from the content creator perspective and to the point about Twitter, it kind of, it sits itself in the middle of, of

those intermediaries that were typically taking a cut of any type of revenue that you used to get. In particular, I'm looking at you, YouTube, that we're on right now. that that ad revenue is is what you know keeps a lot of people afloat and all the sudden you can introduce revenue sources that that are very easy to utilize and kind of almost like bypasses what what YouTube is trying to do and in taking their massive cut of of everything um so I find that to be interesting. I find it, I mean, they very much try to get you using like super chats and stuff like that. But like when, when there's a simple way of like, oh, I can just drop a tip here, and that begins to proliferate through lots of other alternative platforms, at what point,

you know, do enough people say, well, I'm going to go through this method or this method. At what point do some of the bigger players start saying, well, I guess we better put this in here because there's a huge demand for it and we're losing, albeit small at first, we're losing some market share because of that. I don't know how that affects that moving forward. No, it would definitely be groundbreaking in that regards. And it would certainly shake like the YouTube to the world, et cetera. But another, not just to change it here, but there's another application that Lightning would truly thrive in. And it's in the world of restaurants. Right now, a lot of transactions that are done in restaurants are done through.

Visa and MasterCard and they take their slice of the pie, they're one, two, three, four percent every time the card is swiped. And from what I understand, restaurants, they have a very layer thin, sorry, a very thin margin for profit. And if you're able to increase the profit by taking away that 1 to 4 percent, that MasterCard and Visa do, that you can make businesses way more profitable. And it's just simply just implementing lightning on the current system. Like, it's easier said than done.

but once it's able to be implemented in restaurants and you're able to pay for your meals with lightning, it's going to make profits just shoot through the roof for a lot of these small businesses. Did you see, I think it was Ben Ark. Hold on a second. I'm seeing if I can pull it up, but he had some demo of like an offline lightning payment, which I didn't know was possible. And he had some sort of like a point of sale. type thing lightning network offline.

The point of sale stuff is huge, man. It's absolutely enormous. Share this. Oshy, Michael Atwood out in Austin right now. I don't know if you've heard of Oshy, but what it does is you can do lightning payments and it gives the business 3% back or whatever the visa charges, right? And then they have the ability to either keep it from themselves or give it back to the user. And there's an event going on December 2nd in Austin where they're setting up, taking over a block, setting up nine food trucks,

is going to sponsor one of them, but everything's going to run on OSHA. And there's actually a lot of businesses that are starting to use it. And there's actually, I think, either, there's either Marty Bent or someone else, but they posted, they bought some beef. And they actually paid with OSHA and the rancher is now using it. Oh, wild. Marty, Marty did a great show with Texas Slim the other day.

And they talk about OSHA. They talk about a lot of other things, too. But that's a big takeaway from that, that this OSHA thing and the lightning payments is, it's not, you know, it's not that hard to sell. if you can get somebody for 15 minutes and show them the benefits, it's almost a no-brainer. Yeah, when your profit margin, like sometimes it's like 15, 20%, you know, you're not a tech company with like 60, 70% margins, right? But like 3%. It's like, wow, that's like what a 2% difference in my bottom line, just getting that extra 3%. So it's nice.

That's really cool. Yeah, I'm just, oh, there we go. Yeah. Oh, sweet. Yeah, this looks good. I'm going to have to dive into this. I haven't actually looked at that. And I'm going to have to listen to that podcast, too, because, God, there's so many good, so many good things to listen to. It's crazy. And here's that, this is that offline payments thing. This is just like one of them, a proof of concept thing. But, but, yeah, offline payments and action together with our lightning beer tap developed by Paul Adrian and run. And, huh, interesting.

Again, I don't know how an offline. an offline lightning payment works, but I mean, that's, that's interesting. It's, uh, it kind of, because I can shed a bit of light on that. The, um, because like, you know, the, the, the, the beauty of the lightning network is that you don't need to broadcast your transactions to the entire, um, to the entire ecosystem. Now, generally you want to be online access to you communicate with other people, but if I have a channel directly open to you, um, you and I can do all the necessary interactions and basically come up with a new commitment transaction. so that we can both be sure that this is the new state of the channel, and no one else needs to know about that. So I don't actually know specific details of how this one works, but fundamentally, lightning network transactions, only everybody involved needs to be able to communicate with each other.

That's the only thing you actually need. Now, normally when you send a lightning transaction, it actually hops through several different channels because you're usually not connected directly to the person you interacting with. And so you need to have somebody communicate with every lightning node in that hop. but there's no fundamental reason you need to be online. You know, all you need is the ability to communicate, you know, the updated state of all the channels with the, with everyone involved.

Hmm. Interesting. It's crazy. There's so much going on lightning and it's been. And, uh, well, maybe actually this is a good segue into, I think what Mario wanted to chat about. So like, this will keep on that,

we'll keep on kind of the same general topic. in that it's helpful the lightning. But let's segue to Mario, because I want to go down this line of thought. Maybe you can first tell us what you're bullish about. Yeah, no. I like that we're doing this nice, you know, technical section in the middle before, you know, Joey rounds us out with what I assume is going to be some doom and gloom about the broader economic world.

Yeah, sure, let's do it. Well, as of right now, we are 192 blocks away from Tapperut activation. It's going to happen in the early hour. of Sunday morning if you're on EST or I guess for UBC sessions it'll be a Saturday night. So yeah, it means just a day and about six hours left until we get the first protocol update on going live on Bitcoin since segregated witness back in 2017. And yeah, I am stoked for this. This has been a long time coming. I still remember. I still remember the day that like I saw the original post in the Bitcoin mailing list from Greg Maxwell pitching Taproot. I read it and understood like 20% of it.

And I kind of got, I got this tiny glimmer of what it could do. And it took me like a few weeks before I kind of really got what the idea was. But this is coming soon. And I wish I could stay up for it. But I'm flying El Salvador Sunday morning. So I probably should be sleeping by then. But yeah, Tapper is going to be great. Like, I mean, I'm assuming everybody listening to this is at least heard of it.

But it's going to give a big boost to privacy and scalability on Bitcoin. In particular, Supercharges Lightning Network, in that it will allow lightning network transactions to appear indistinguishable from regular Bitcoin transactions on the network. So a big privacy boost there. It enables you to do all sorts of the same scripting stuff, but it allows you to hide a lot of unused scripts. It allows for Schnor signatures, which are in many ways are a much more efficient type of digital signature. So you can, if you have a multi-sig transaction with multiple people signing with the same UTXO, they can combine them into a single signature. So again, this just makes a whole bunch of different types of transactions on Bitcoin network appear the same.

They all just look like a single, you know, a single one signature spend in most conditions. And it's a big boost to scalability and privacy. Doesn't this also make pay to end point and just coin join in general? technically, if you're divvying up the fee, Schnor signatures, won't that make a coin join less expensive than a regular transaction? So there are, so Schnor signatures allow you to do a bunch of different things, and including aggregating a whole bunch of signatures together. I believe what you're talking about is cross-input aggregation.

So right now you have Bitcoin transaction, and there's a few different inputs and a few different outputs, and generally each input will need one or several signatures. So this TapperD update will allow all the signatures in the same input, so spending the same output to be aggregated together. So if this one spending input would have required two signatures, those can be combined into one if it was a Tapperud address. Now what you're describing for making CoinJoin much cheaper

would require the ability to combine signatures across different inputs, which is not going to be available with this Tafford update, But this gets us one step closer to that. And is that part of the Schnorr signature update? Would that enable this? Or is that, am I thinking of something different? Yeah. So, like, you in order, you would need the Bitcoin rule set to allow you to validate

store signatures so that you can combine them. But then you would also, which is going to be, you'll be able to do that with Tapper. But then that's step one. And step two, you also need some sort of rule set that defines how you can combine across different inputs. So it's kind of, it's the first step towards using short signatures later. I hope that answers a question. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think I've got.

But yeah, it's, and this, what, 190 blocks left now. This is, it's a big deal. And I had a question because you said that it makes lightning indistinct. on chain from a regular transaction. Currently, for those watching that don't know, what does lightning look like on chain? How does it differentiate between regular transactions currently? What do people see?

Sure. Well, let's say Bobby and I are going to open up a lightning channel with each other. And what that is, what that's going to involve is there's going to be a transaction broadcasted to the Bitcoin blockchain that's going to have a single output with two of two multi-sig that requires both of our signatures. And there's a whole bunch of other stuff that goes on the background. And we each have a copy of like a commitment transaction that we haven't broadcast, but we can kind of send the funds back to whoever owns them, we close the channel. But if everything goes well, we make a bunch of payments to each other back and forth. And then after a while,

we decided we want to close the channel. We want to move the funds to a different channel or whatever. And then we broadcast another transaction that spends from that two of two multi-sig and then distributes the money back to us. Now, right now, what that looks like on-chain is, This is in most conditions. If one of us tries to like cheat the other person or goes offline, then there's a more complicated thing happens. But the majority of the time, this is what happens. You have one transaction that's got a two of two, two of two multi-sync output and another transaction spending a two of two multisic output. Now, there aren't many other use cases on Bitcoin right now that have two of two multi-sake outputs.

There are some, but they're not nearly as common as lightning. So a chain analysis company that's looking at the Bitcoin network right now will, can, it makes it much easier for them to guess which are lightning channel opens and closures. Now with Taproot, because we just have a single address. Now, this is going to be available right away, I don't believe. I think this still has to be added to the various lightning implementations. But we will be possible with Tapert is that we could just have a single address. And then instead of us putting both of our signatures there, we combine our signatures into a joint one and broadcast that.

And so what the rest of the network sees is they just say, see a single signature spending from an outfit. So that just looks the same as in someone sent money to a location and send money somewhere else. They don't know, they can't see the difference between that and, you know, four of seven multi-sig or just, you know, a single signature transaction. That's awesome. I'm, yeah, this is exciting.

And it's stuff like this very much for people that aren't, aren't this kind of deep down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, it's, it just flies totally under the radar. They don't realize the amount of development happening in the background with Bitcoin and the degree of optimization that is being pushed through. And it just, we really see it playing out in alternatives that try to cram everything on the base chain, just how that pans out versus this approach of like, let's be as efficient as possible with what we have here. and then use secondary layers. And, you know, to me, it looks like it's paying off. And the proof is in the pudding here. Yeah.

And I should be clear as well, just like you're not going to notice a huge difference to your Bitcoin experience the day after Tapper's accurate. This is the type of thing. Like now this stuff becomes possible, gradually gets built out over time. You know, still, like just this year, we saw a big boost in Segwit addresses. That was from four years ago. But the fact that this stuff is live, it means people can start playing around with it and start using it.

And it's out there for real. It does say, I was just going to say there's a percentage of, I'm looking at BIPO right now, if I'm not mistaken, it shows you the percentage of, of, of Segwit transaction. Yeah, percentage of Segwit transactions in the last 24 hours. Keep in mind, it activated in 2017. percentage of Segwit transactions over the past day, 81.53%. So there's still, you know, 18% and 1⁄2% of transactions are still being spent from legacy addresses, which, you know, take more space and have higher fees.

So just, you know, it takes time. Mario, what are the tradeoffs that Top Route is sort of giving back? And if you have an idea about this, when you think about chain analysis companies, what is the mechanism by which they'll be able to stay in business through Taproot? Because it's something that we don't talk a lot about. I don't see a lot of it on Twitter. I see even in the comments here,

people talking about chain analysis not being able to keep up. They'll find a way. What is the way you think that they'll be able to continue their work? Because it's almost inevitable that this cat and mouse is going to continue, right? So what's the tradeoffs here? Okay, sorry, I'm not sure if you're asking two different questions here, like, or is that one? Yeah, yeah, two, two questions. Okay, yeah, sure.

The tradeoffs, like, like, the cooler met Tapper is like, it's not that there are no tradeoffs. There definitely are some, but it's very minimal. Like, there are almost no new trust assumptions required. Actually, I don't think there are any, there are no new cryptographic trust assumptions required for it to work. There's a minor thing in that the way that the, um, the fees are, are reduced for taproot slightly increases, or slightly decreases the ability of address to be hidden in a certain way.

Like there was, right now, you pay to, you don't pay directly to public addresses. You pay to a hash of the public address. And then when you're spending from that, you kind of reveal what the public address is. And then you have these two pieces of data where you have like after you spend from an output, you have the public address.

just shows up and then in the output you also have the hash whereas with with taproot um due to how it works there is no hash of the public key you're paying directly to a public key um so that's where the space savings comes from um now i i've seen some debate back and forth on like whether or not there's even much of a benefit to um to kind of hiding your your public key behind a hash before you spend it um but that is kind of uh that i do remember that being one point where it was discussed like okay like you know do we actually want to make this trades. That's the only thing came to mind. But there aren't, like, I mean, there is a degree you could argue that there's added complexity and now there's more other more output types,

more transaction addresses that like wallets will need to know how to handle. But to be honest, those are pretty minor compared to the benefits we're getting here. This really, really was a large work for optimization. The other thing you're asking about was chain analysis companies. Now, I'm super stoked for the privacy enhancements here, but this is not a panacea. You know, I think we really do have to adopt the mindset that there is going to be a constant kind of ongoing war between privacy solutions and, you know, entities that are trying to analyze the blockchain, right? So, you know, this is going to make it harder with them to distinguish between, you know,

Lightning Network channel opens and closures. But, you know, it's not going to, but there's like, there's a large kind of, or there's a handful of heuristics that, that these companies use to kind of make guesses. And it'll make their job a bit harder, but it's not going to make it impossible. And also, another thing to keep in mind that privacy, privacy doesn't only happen at the, at the blockchain level, like, where, you know, we normally think of surveillance companies as like scanning Bitcoin transactions and kind of making inferences based on the inputs and outputs. But there are also different levels where privacy happens. You know, there are some things that, um,

could be done where these companies run their own nodes and kind of they if they run a bunch of different nodes different parts of the network and they might be able to kind of tell where transactions were first broadcast from so they can guess where they come from so maybe more their efforts will will you know shift to different levels and you know there's there's all sorts of work being done done on at the kind of peer-to-peer communications layer for nodes which uh you know we don't often think about um because uh you know that's a lot of that just happens at the back background, but maybe more of the privacy efforts will be focused there, more of the analysis, efforts will be focused there. So I don't think these companies are going to go out of business

anytime soon, but we are going to, you know, make their job harder. And, you know, hopefully it'll shake some of them out. And then hopefully, you know, the entities paying for this data will be paying more money for less info. But I don't think it's, it's not going to be a full game over solution. Okay, one more question. Since you mentioned that you're on the Bitcoin mailing list, kudos to you. That's deeper in the rabbit hole than I've ever been. Tell me something about the development process if you can. And anyone can answer this. I don't know if anyone else has this kind of question. But presumably there's some thought from the devs about what's likely to make Bitcoin successful long term. And in the current environment, it seems to me that

privacy and sort of, you know, a black tarp, as much as one can put a black tarp over transactions and data makes it less likely to succeed long term than more likely to succeed long term. So are these things considered by the devs? Is this something that goes on on the mailing list or in forums somewhere? Are these things that people consider before they implement something that, you know, maybe TopRoot doesn't do this, but it seems to be a privacy gain, a significant privacy gain, and a significant privacy gain means additional, I would guess, additional pushback from regulators who don't want to see privacy gains.

So is there a balancing act there that the devs consider or not really? Okay, a couple things there. First, the dev mailing list I think is more accessible than people might realize. There's going to be conversa—like, if you sign up for it and get those emails, there's going to be stuff you don't understand. But there's also going to be people asking questions and, you know, getting very, very clear explanations for them. So it's a decent way to start learning.

You know, I don't follow it super regularly these days. But, yeah, I mean, early on, it was a great way for me to learn. So, yeah, check it out, guys. The other thing is, I think it's, I think it's considered an uncontroversial thing in the Bitcoin development world that privacy is good for Bitcoin in that I don't, there isn't, there isn't a tremendous amount of discussion at that level about the regulatory environment. And the goal isn't necessarily like number go up, mainstream adoption. The goal is to optimize for the properties that we've kind of established are valuable for Bitcoin. And that is like making it, you know, hard money, making it validatable. And fungibility is a broadly accepted category, which is, you know, the more that people can extract information about a coin's history,

the more likely it is that, you know, different coins might be valued differently because because, you know, they might be worried this one might not get accepted somewhere because it came from a shady source. You know, in order to be a good money, money needs to be fungible. And that is, I think that if there are people who disagree with that premise, they're probably not working on Bitcoin. They're probably not working on cryptocurrency at all. You know, that's like, you know, I don't want to sound like, I don't want to sound like it's not something that should be discussed. talked about. But if someone disagrees that privacy is a good trait or that fungibility is a good trait for money to have, they're probably not interested in a decentralized currency. You know,

you can't really have both. If you have a money that's highly surveillable, you kind of, it really, really erodes all the other properties that Bitcoin has. So yeah, I don't, that's, I don't think I've said anything there that, you know, and again, I can speak. That's my best understanding of what I see in the development process and kind of the discussions around the technical kind of constraints where we want to go. But yeah, I mean, this is Bitcoin, so I can't speak for anyone else. But that's my best understanding of it. Just to touch on you were talking earlier about fees and everything.

There is a website that I came across. I pulled it up here a moment ago. BitcoinOps.org and they've got tools for a calculation. of a transaction size, and they have added tap route there. So you can see how it differs through the different transaction types. So like you have a Beck 32 address, and you've got two inputs and two outputs, and you can see the total size in bytes or in V bytes, and then you can switch that to tap route,

and you can see how that affects the size based on the inputs and outputs. it. So yeah, interesting there. It gives you a better idea of what you'll be paying for, depending on what kind of address you're dealing with. So just to give everybody a heads up that Mario was talking about the development emails. They typically come out like one or two per day. And it's, yeah, I highly encourage anybody to get involved with that. It just gets you more in tune with what's coming up and what questions are being asked to the developers, et cetera, et cetera. It's a great way to just get more knowledge and more exposure to the development of Bitcoin.

And something also to consider, this is the biggest change, I believe, since Segwit, so it's four years in change since we had changed as big as this. So something which should be celebrated. I bought one Bitcoin worth of fireworks, so I'm going to be firing it off. And finally it goes into an existence. I'm going to piss off the neighbors of it. It's the middle of the night. Lastly, the nodes, from what I understand, not all the nodes have updated the Bitcoin

core to a core that is compatible with. taproot. I think it's core 0.21.1 is the minimum you need in order to be compatible with taproot. From what I remember reading is like something around 50, 70% of all nodes have upgraded to this Bitcoin core or higher. So still there's a lot of Bitcoin cores out or sorry, nodes out there, sorry, that have to upgrade to the latest Bitcoin core to be compliant with taproot. So if you have a Bitcoin node at home, updated, please. That's not that bad. That's better than like Android updates. Also, I'm a little disappointed.

We've been doing the show for, you know, almost a year. And you didn't tell me you're on the mailing list till just now. So that's good. Another thing to talk about, once we're off camera here. There's a lot of things you don't know about me. It's a minute to remain in Iraq. Maybe Len is a pseudonym and he posts the mailing list. You never know.

Yeah. My pseudonym is Satoshi. That's why you said it was right before the show started. You are Satoshi. I am not him. No. No way. That's exactly what Satoshi would say.

I have more technical knowledge. That's good info, Mario. I'm guilty of not knowing enough about the technical side of Bitcoin. And that was a pretty good, I think, layman explanation for, at least for me, my ability level. Do you have a resource you can recommend for like an explainer for Taproot? What would you recommend to somebody who's, you know, maybe not quite there? Maybe someone who jumped on during the bull run last year or this year. What would you show them?

Yeah. I mean, I can, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to shill my own tweet. Actually, a couple of weeks ago, I just put a little feeler out there. And I asked people for their best kind of short explanation for Taproot. And I was asking for either, like, something in tweet form or something like, you know, articles. And I got a lot of really, really good responses. And, yeah, just let me link it in one second.

You know, one of the best I got was just like a three-tweet description from Peter Weller responded. There's nothing, nothing I enjoy on Twitter more than getting ratioed by, by SIPA. It's, I always know there's some good coming. I see it. I've just linked it in the, I can't comment on the general chat, can I know? You can also share your screen, but I got it here, so I'll bring up. But there we go. Yeah, so there were a lot of good layman explanations here.

I believe River Financial, yeah, River.com has a great taproot summary and glossary, and it's like it's pretty lame and friendly and there's links to it um but uh yeah there's a lot of good stuff in there for someone to get started yeah that's that's awesome cool i will uh i'll i'll share that in the in the show notes in a little bit actually i'll uh if you're in the chat right now in the the live chat then i'm dropping it right now there you go um also you know i was going to say maybe we can uh we can go into a bit more in depth on uh any Bitcoiners podcast. Absolutely.

Yeah. You got a Saffone. How are you, how are you going to connect? You're going to be. We'll figure it out. I've heard, I've heard they got internet in El Salvador.

You could communicate with us through lightning. Yeah. Actually, yeah, we just, we just learned that you don't need the internet to use lightning payments. So maybe, maybe they're making do without it. I don't know.

I've never been before. We'll find out. Breaking barriers. I love it. It is dope. The tap-re thing is dope. And I would just say for the F heads, like,

this is what it looks like to, to develop, understand, and take really, you know, like build and take, take stock of a ledger between tradeoffs, what the rollout will look like, things of that nature. So to Ethereum and the Allcoins, you know, who have struggled with this over the years, this is what it looks like. It takes four years to put in something like this. Well, a hundred other coins are claiming they're more private. Well, a hundred other coins are claiming they can obscure transactions.

You know, we spent a little longer, but here we are. This is, I don't know what movie this is from, but I love anything that's like, like a huge taproot celebration is just jokes. Yeah. If anybody wants to watch the lock-in when it happens in 189 blocks, just head to taproot. Dot watch and you'll be able to see it lock in, but they've got a hilarious,

they've got a hilarious video here from, what is this one? Is this the one with the, no, no, no, this is, with Matt Damon. Matt Damon. What was the movie where he's stuck on Mars? The Martian.

Martian. There you go. That's Wall Street Betts. That's like Wall Street Bettsworthy meme. That's incredible. Yeah. This is fantastic. Good for the guys over at taproot. dot watch for getting this video up. It's solid.

Taproot lock in, everybody's celebrating. I hope they've got another one queued in for activation because that would be great. Also, I forgot that Kristen Wigg was in The Martian. Great movie, though. Really good movie. Anyways, cool. Well, Mario, thank you for enlightening us on Taproot and how exciting it is.

I'll see if I can get myself out of bed to watch that activate. Thanks for listening. Believe it or not, there's not many people in real life who like letting me ramble on about Taproot. I love it. Put in your Tinder profile. Give it a shot. Yeah, I think that play well. I'm sure you'll get a few dates out of that.

No, you need to put that on your, on your gender profile and then go to like a Bitcoin conference. And then it'll probably pan out for the like the few women that are there. There's still a bit of a ratio going on. So, you know, we'll give it a few more years. Yeah. Awesome. Well, let's keep it rolling then. We are about to lock in our final reason for being bullish.

If you're in the chat, keep the comments coming. Smash the like button. Give it a share. Joey, you're up. What's going on? What are you bullish about? You gave me the last verse on this song, which is so sick. I'm bullish on Normies, boys and girls.

And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. So we give a lot of shit to Normies in this community. Everyone on this stream, for sure, has tweeted out something negative about Normies, I'd guess, in the last like two weeks. 100% guaranteed. But there's been a shift, I think. Mario's going to get a look.

Yeah, he can give me a look. That's mean, guys. I would never do that. If he wants to be looking, give me a look. The normie shift in the last two weeks, I think, has been tangible and I think is important. And it starts with this whole talk about inflation. And I mentioned earlier that the inflation print in the U.S., if you buy those numbers, is somewhere around five and change, six in change.

I don't know exactly where it is. But for the first time, basically, you're seeing mainly. mainstream media being forced to print on both sides of that story. You have stories about how it's the highest in 30 years, but also as we saw earlier this week, MSNBC, tall tales, beanstock stories about how it's good for you, how inflation is only really bad for the top 1%, but for the rest of the 99, it's outstanding. This sort of, you know, A sop fable about inflation used to fly, flew all the time. In fact, I think it's flown for probably the better part of 50 years since 71.

The thing that the sort of governments and other people who are involved in creating this inflation have always counted on is that it only affects the people who are without capacity to combat it. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way. What I mean by that is it's the people who maybe didn't get a great education, people who have families. They're working a lot of hours every week. They don't have curated Twitter feeds like the five of us, I'm sure do. People in the chat, I'm sure do, who can break down, much like my co-hol. posted earlier this sort of nonsense that's hiding in the numbers, hiding in the banners, and hiding in the press releases for, you know, pick the initiative.

They don't have a LEN in their lives. That's right. That's right. Everyone needs their own Lens, right? It's like a Furby back in 99. Everyone's looking for a Lenn. So, you know, the thing, the thing about that, that sort of style of, we'll call it like a fake tax, the thing about that is that those people that had affected the most were always unable

to combat it. and I give you the reasons. You know, this has really been damaging, I think, in most modern economies and most of the modern world. And it's not just because it's a theft by governments. We talked to Ali from Tihini, who's famous in the Bitcoin space, specifically in Canada.

And he, you know, he mentioned without any prompt from Len and I that, you know, the thing that's important to think about when it comes to inflation and what it does to your financial house is that if you're in a family

where you already have two parents working 60 hours a week or 50 hours a week, you know, If you suddenly can't make ends meet and you're being told on television that inflation is not that big a deal and you don't have the means or the wherewithal to discover for yourself that maybe those prints are not legit, you're damaging marriages, you're damaging the lives of children, you're damaging future generations. All these things have ripple effects that I think are very wide ranging. And so while it's fun to dunk on MSNBC and CNN and New York Times for this kind of stuff, you know, Krugman and his buddies, there's a lot of stuff that goes on when he talk about. the sort of misleading prints and what that does to families and economies. Now, the thing that I think is going to be damaging to this narrative for politicians and for policymakers

is that, now hang with me here for a sec, it's that the proximity to the economic calculation is shrinking. And what I mean by that is for people of, let's say, middle class stature, when you make a decision to buy a home, the home inflates and inflates and inflates like crazy. When you make a decision to pay for school, the education costs inflate and inflate and inflate and you don't ever really see the properties of inflation in those major, major purchases, the things that you want the most.

And the reason you don't see it is because it's stretched out over time. And so naturally, if it's 5% or 6% a year, or even less than that, you're not going to notice it. And so when you sell your house, You're happy about the value's gone up. You're not really paying much attention to how much it's gone up. Because typically when you sell and take cash from a house, it hasn't been five years. It's been 25 years, right?

You're always moving to another house to meet your needs and meet your family's needs. These things are just the way life works. And the proximity now for people of means of the economic calculation are vanishing. People are looking at what it costs to fill their gas tank. People are looking at what it costs to buy red meat and milk and dairy. infamously milk after the CNN piece last week or two weeks ago. And they're seeing for the first time that shit is way too fucking expensive and they don't know why.

Now worse, the places they usually go to for news and information, the corporate press, are telling them that not only is the price increase really not that bad or that it's temporary or that you should be happy about it, but also that it's really to your benefit that this is going up in price. The milk being $6 a gallon, you didn't know this enough. but it's really something you should be happy about. And the wealth effect plays a role in that for these people and all these other things play a role in that.

They've been docile because it hasn't really touched them until now. And so while governments have been able to pull the rug and pull wool over the eyes of people of less means and less competence, they're now running into a group of people who are community leaders, their fathers and mothers, their coaches, their volunteers, they're people who have a Twitter group chat, people who show up on the BTC sessions podcast, people who start their own podcasts,

people who work for Bitcoin companies, work for financial institutions, they're teachers, they're people who others look to for advice and look to for whether or not an idea has legitimacy. And what you're seeing now in that group is inflation has entered their zeitgeist. It is part of their narrative now. The Overton window has shifted to an area

where they can discuss inflation openly, honestly, and talk about the tangible results and consequences of these things. And so I think that because of this, you're going to see a lot of discussion from the corporate press, who, by the way, needs their advertising dollars, needs their eyes, needs their clicks, about the true nature of inflation. Now, it may be sugar-coded, I'm sure, okay?

But the fact that people are even going to see this for the first time and the people who have the most money, you know, the 50 and up sort of crowd, at least in Canada, I'm sure in the United States is the same. In Europe, it's the same. But the 50 and up crowd who has the most money now, they're going to be looking for the first time at, what does this mean for me?

And I'll tell you what it means for them. We talked a little bit earlier about the 60-40 portfolio, how that doesn't work and how it was built for a time that's now antiquated to say the least. That's very diplomatic language for the 6040 portfolio is really for. We're looking at government bonds and how the highest yield bonds no longer meet the needs compared to the government inflation print.

We're looking at gold, which people will tell you with a straight face is an inflation hedge while the price remains the same for the most inflationary decades since the 70s. And finally, you're going to start looking at, I think, people who are looking at the price of their homes when they retire. And I think about my own situation. My wife and I talked about moving last year. We're doing okay for ourselves. And we decided not to move because if you're going to sell your house, your house may have gone up in value. But guess what?

Any place you want to move to has gone up just as quickly. or more. And so these things now are in people's faces in a way they have never been before. And thanks to things like Twitter, things like Instagram, things like Facebook, I can't believe I'm using the F word on the show, the only one that I don't want to use on this stream. These things are more widely discussed among communities, people who have means and can raise health for policymakers. And so I think that Bitcoin or not Bitcoin, a lot of these people will make it to sound money and sound economics at some point. And I'm very much looking forward to seeing what kind of people we can pull from that middle class,

lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class who have never had to, you know, stomach inflation this way before. Because I think there's a lot of good people there. And I can't wait to see them join our ranks. That's a great topic. I love this. And you're spot on with the coverage of it has been laughable. far until recently you're starting to see the oh maybe this isn't the greatest thing in the world

obviously you know and and you know people for sure for sure in in their day to day lives are not saying oh wonderful my groceries are way more expensive there was a there's a cbc article last week or maybe it was global but regardless it was um Canadians uh have or it might have been actually specific to Alberta or even to my city, but it said that on average people have added $200 to their monthly grocery bill, and they say it now takes the average family of $1,200 Canadian dollars a month just to keep the fridge full, which is insane. And it's it's sad to see because I personally know people that are having trouble making and meet and they don't they don't fully know why but they're asking those questions and they're

they're curious uh one to just to your point about um uh the the sugar coding and some of the BS narratives that you see of why it's good uh the one that I saw um just today I think or yesterday I retweeted it and said that it was just like a painfully terrible take but it was an article where again, the title was literally, inflation is good for you. And, uh, and it was for the, it was bad for only for the 1% and the argument therein was that, well, everybody's so saddled with debt that the, the, uh, value of the debt that you have to pay back, it becomes easier to pay back. Never mind the fact that all of your other expenses that you have to pay for outside of

the debt are getting more expensive and that your wage is lagging. the increase in inflation. So basically the argument whittled down to, hey, you know all the debt that you had to rack up because shit is getting more expensive? Well, now it's going to be easier to pay back that old debt so that you can add new debt for the tons of more expensive shit that you see on the shelves. And it's just such a backwards argument because had that inflation not been present previously, perhaps somebody may not have had to rack up all that debt in the first place.

So, yeah, I don't know. I'll leave it open to the floor for other people to comment. Man, like, I'm rehashing what I said in the spaces like an hour and a half ago. But the other thing, like the other rugpole is really in this whole idea that the CPI is part of the cost of living. Like, think about that term, that phrase, okay? You get that kicked into your dome from a time you're in like grade 10 and you start talking about things like this. You hear your parents talking about it and can digest it. The cost of living is this like, this like,

sort of vague state of affairs for the average person. Well, what is living really, okay? Len and I talk about this on our program from time to time. And I hate this term. And you guys can probably appreciate this. I'm sure people in the chat, like your listeners and viewers are wise to this already. But think about what living was 30 years ago, okay?

There's a reason that when you watch old movies, all you see is pick offenses, two kids and a dog and a happily married couple. You know, now when people say, well, I'm making a salary that rises with the cost living, dog, you're not fucking living if you're working 50 hour weeks coming home, watching Netflix, smoking a jewel pod, and watching TikToks before you go to bed. That's not living. But you've been conditioned to think this. And so you're looking at your wages and going, well, this looks okay. Like I have an apartment. I have a PlayStation. I have a cell phone.

And you can't tell me that this is not a symptom of, of, of, you know, that this is not a symptom of, of, this inflation problem and this time preference problem. It obviously is. But there's like this big issue that I think a lot of younger people especially have. I don't want to pick on the youth, but I look at like, you know, people in my life who are like in their mid-20s, let's say, and they don't have homes. And they're, they're resigned to either, like, I'm on Ontario, they resigned to either never owning a home or moving out east and buying a home for significantly less cost, right? And I just think, like, you know, you could buy a home in, you know, in one of the Eastern provinces for a little less, but you're going to make a lot less too. Services are not going to be available to your cost of living, you know, maybe a little less, but your quality of living is going to be less as well.

And so these things all kind of compound and work together to paint this picture of everything is okay. It's the bread and circuses theory, right? Everything is okay. You're eating. You got TikTok. You're good. But if you back off just a little bit, the first time you realize that, you're the first time you realize that, you're not. literally everything you do is either taking risk or just getting by,

it's a fucking eye-opener man. And it's really not that hard to bring people into the Bitcoin sound money, sound policy, sound economics ranks once they're able to realize that, hey, I shouldn't have to take risk with every dollar I make just to get by. This is a bit much. But people don't, they don't see it yet. They're going to, I think, in the next six or eight months. Absolutely.

And Joey, nobody has PlayStation's except for you and I. The PlayStation 5 is sold out. everywhere. So don't say that that's something people are playing when they go home. But you're right. It's redefining what it is as for living. But one thing to note is people are now getting bombarded with the news of Bitcoin. When you turn on the business news, hopefully some people actually listen or watch that. It's not being reported the price of Bitcoin in the business news. So people are going to be force-fed almost that the information of Bitcoin is going to be given to them. And hopefully the price will make them want to actually invest in it. And I,

I think this is going to be opening up a real, like an avalanche of retail investors that are going to be investing in Bitcoin. Like we're just really so early. Yeah, absolutely. Bobby, what are you seeing in, I mean, I imagine you've got some normie friends kicking around. What are you seeing with them? What's their mindset in and around what's happening with inflation? Are they cluing in? How are they handling it?

I'd kind of disagree with Joey in a way. I get his whole story and we've all heard it. Am I bullish on Normies? No, because they're living the same life they always have. What I am bullish on, those bit pointers telling the story like he just so eloquently did. And I was in a clubhouse with American Hoddle, and I was just like, dude, I'm obsessed with telling my friends about it.

And he's just like, those people chose their life, basically like natural selection, you know? And I'm just like, like Mario, like I don't really talk bad about Normies. if you go look at my Twitter right now, I got a text today of a friend who hit me up and said, hey, thanks for getting me into Bitcoin. I'm afraid to really talk about it with people because they're all living, living the same struggling life and now I have more money than what is due on my mortgage. And he's just making shit tons of money because he invests in Bitcoin and has for three to four years.

And it's just like for me, it's just I try to tell everyone about it. Like I probably spend four or five hours a week, orange billing people at 6 a.m. I'm at the coffee shop or late at night if people want to talk, my wife's friends. And it's just like, it's near and dear to my heart. Like, I just love helping educate people. Like, that's just what I do. And I'm bullish on people that are passionate like Joey, passionate like me and have, like, the knowledge like Mario does and just come with the receipts like Lynn.

And, you know, same with you, Ben, like you're willing to put in time every day and do this stuff. Like, I'm really glad that there's people who care. And I think that's what's really going to change the game because you think about it, like, you plant that seed and now they have the opportunity to plant a seed. It's like it's different from the network effect of Bitcoin. It's the network effect of accountability. It's hard to hold like what I said earlier. It's hard to hold politicians accountable.

You can hold friends accountable. You can text them and check in with them. And the more you do it, the more they understand it. Because every conversation you have, they walk away with more knowledge. And that's really what it's all about. You know, that's how revolution starts. And I think we're all in on that. Sounds like you're bullish on normies becoming bitcoiners because of other bitcoiners.

Yeah, I'm bullish on the real woke happening, you know. I can give some stats. We talked about it on their show. There was actually a poll conducted by Ipsos not too long ago. And they actually showed that in 2016, there was 3% ownership of Bitcoin by the people that they polled. And in 2021, that number has increased to 14%. So it's 14%.

You could say it's still very small. But that's one in seven. One in seven people you know invested in Bitcoin. So from that, you're going to have some discussion going on between, you know, those people. That's how it's going to grow. And that's how the seed is going to be planted. And, you know, every time I think about this, man, I'm just, I think this is just going

to go through the roof. Like, I just want to liquidate everything I have to buy more Bitcoin, but I'm pretty much tapped out. And the only thing I've left is just a kidney and a lung for sale. So if anybody. We can tell. At a PS5, yeah. Yeah, Ben, he might have a PS5.

But it looks like he's in a Taliban hostage video in there. Like every week, we record the shows. He's in a closet. He's in a closet. Well. that's great yeah although i will say i i i don't have a ps5 uh i i haven't had a a playstation for for years i do have an xbox and a nintendo because me and my wife are are are hidden mario card on the regular but uh i am switch switch for life man yeah i love my

the first game console i ever got for myself out of this summer thank you bitcoin It was to get me through quarantine and I came back from Miami, actually. I can't wait. I can't wait till like five years from now when, uh, hold on, I got to pull up this, uh, this website. Has everybody seen this website that I'm about to pull up right here? It's called Bitcoin or shit.com. Yeah. I can't wait to see Mario's face plastered on this five years from now with his like switch.

His $1 million dollar switch. Yeah. Am I got a screenshot? Yeah. That's it was worth it though. It certainly was worth it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's do a quick just to kind of round some things out here. Maybe let's just do a quick round of did you buy it on Bitcoin or shit.

So anybody that's watching that's unfamiliar with this website. Basically, it's a land on a page. It says if you bought Bitcoin instead of fucking stupid shit, you'd have X amount of dollars. Click here. It can't be that bad. So let's see what we got here. If you got Bitcoin, instead of a fucking Impossible Burger, you'd have $667 original price, $7 back in 2016.

Who's had an Impossible Burger here? Anybody? I don't think I have it. I either had an impossible burger or it was the Beyond. The Beyond me. When I met up with Mike in space in Toronto a couple years ago, he went to get the plant-based burgers to have the first non-end, Cardinifery, Bitcoin meetup.

And it was a wild success. The two of us ate these. They weren't that good burgers. Yeah. Well, it's... And now I feel even worse about it. Thanks, Ben. Great.

All right. Let's do two more. Jewel starter kit. Is anybody on the jewel pods here? Because that's 12 grand for an original price of 45. You see like a jewel guy. Jewel pods and bonbons. That'll fuck you up, man.

You guys stay off that stuff. They've been jeweled since 15. that's a steep cost. 19 million sats for just one of those bad boys. Okay, let's do one more. Instead of an Apple home pod, you'd have $2,200, $3 million,

$300,000 originally. Yeah, it was $1,000, yeah, $19 million. Yeah, that's a lot of, like, it just puts you in perspective. When you buy something today, in the future, you're basically pissing your money away if you're buying something that's just going to, you know, I don't want to say anything anymore,

but man, oh man, like just buy some crap cell phone or something else because you're going to you know yeah I just bought a new iPhone yeah this one hurts because I definitely had an iPhone 5 and that's 376 grand that's 5.85 Bitcoin the Bitcoin number it's funny because I'm looking at the 376 grand and then I look at the 5.85 Bitcoin and the Bitcoin number hurts more even though like it's it it you're like 370 something grand they're like well that fucking sucks but Then you see almost six Bitcoin and you're like, shit, that's a lot. An original price was $749.

Guard those stats, people, you know, be careful. Every item that you purchase has an opportunity cost. Of course, you've got to live your life, but just be conscious and be more selective with where you put your... Sell everything you own. Live on the streets. Max, max out all your credit cards. Get a line of credit. Just don't get on a boat with your wallet because then that's going to be a tragic accident.

That's going to happen. I think that's a right of passage, though. I mean, you've got to lose that on a boat. You're contributing to the ecosystem, I think, in a way, shape, or form. By the way, first, Stimmy checks issued are now worth about 12 grand. about you know. Amazing. Gentlemen, I'm going to round it out here. I appreciate all of you.

This was an incredible chat. Maybe we'll just do a quick round of any final thoughts here. So, Len, if you have any parting words that you'd like and also let people know where they can find you. I feel cleansed after that rant earlier on in the show. So there's nothing much I can really say aside from thank you for inviting me on and to talk about inflation and $150 trillion. that's going to be spent.

Actually, I just want to go to rent again after talking about it right now, but I'll leave it alone. That's awesome. Somebody in the chat right now. Fuck it. I just bought more Bitcoin on Shake Pay. Good call, man. Bobby, what about you? Final thoughts and let people know where they can find you.

Yeah. You can find me on Twitter at I, like iPhone. I, Bobby Shell. My website's bobby shell.com. And I'm on LinkedIn a lot spreading the good news to all the normy workers. But what I would say is get a friend to download Stripe this week. tell them they can buy as much as 50 cents of Bitcoin. I saw that update.

I think that's pretty awesome for people that want to get in and make the excuse if it's too expensive. So go drop two quarters. That's awesome. And they just added sats now, making sats the standard. You can toggle between sats and Bitcoin. That's pretty good. Mario, what about you?

Final thoughts? Where can people find you? Yeah, thanks for me on. This is fun. Well, if you're in El Salvador next week, you can find me there. Looking up on Twitter, DM me, why you laugh from, Joey? Bastard. You're just, oh yeah, all the cool kids going.

Not you know. But no, honestly, guys, if anyone's listening, who wants to meet up, I love beating people in real life. So let's do the old meat space thing. Hit me up on Twitter. And yeah, give us a look at lead.io. If you're bullish and you find yourself in need of cash, but don't want to sell your Bitcoin,

we're your one-stop shop. And yeah, if you're Canadian, then I get that one-bik coin giveaway we're doing. And so refer some friends. And yeah, thanks to how to Sahn. Sweet. I want that coin. Joey, what about you?

Final thoughts? And where did people find you? Yeah, man, thank you for having us on. We had a great time. I had a blast. Mario did wear me down, actually, on the leaden thing. I just gave lead in a chunk yesterday. So, yeah, you warm me out, warm me out.

Like the California coastline, if you ask certain people. So you can find me at Joey tweets with three E's and tweets. Me and Lenn host the Canadian Bicorners podcast. we record Mondays and Wednesdays. If it was up to Lenn, it'd be all five days. But for now, I'm safe for the other four or the other three. Yeah, man, just, you know, keep supporting content like this. Like, this stuff is hard to put together.

I was commenting in the private chat before the show. Like, the production is absolutely unbelievable on this show compared to, like, ours. And, you know, this stuff takes time. There's a lot of trial and error, man. Hey, man. But still, it takes time, takes effort. And, you know, if you guys enjoy it, it means other people enjoy. So of course, like share it.

And it helps get the message out. And of course, you know, the more message gets out, the more number go up. So yeah, thanks again for having us, man. It's a really good time. Dude, thank you very much. Again, thank you all for coming here. Everybody watching all of their Twitter handles are in the show notes so you can go follow them and through proxy everything else that they're doing.

Gentlemen, thank you very much. I'm going to drop you out and say our goodbye. So thanks, guys. Oh, and there goes my camera. I'm still here. Don't worry. I'm here. I am present.

Hold on. I'm just going to do... Dude, you cut off electricity to stack more sats, dude. Yeah, that's right. We'll go back up and we'll do the FaceTime. I've got my pro cam and then I've got my laptop. But anyways, guys, thank you very much. And you're all welcome back anytime.

Awesome. And everybody that's watching right now, thank you so much for watching and or listening. might be listening on the pod later, maybe on Breeze, maybe streaming sats or something like that. Of course, if you're on YouTube, like, subscribe, share, all those things are very important, as Joey was just saying. It really helps get the word out. So thank you for those that do it. If you want to help in another way, you can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors down below. Those were shake pay, leaden, bit refill, Keystone, and Bill Fottle over at Privacyprose.com. If you really liked what you saw, you can always hit me up with a strike tip at my strike.

dot me page. That is strike. Dot me slash BTC sessions. You get there. You type in any amount you want. You hit the tip button. You'll be greeted with a lightning invoice or depending on the amount you can click to the right and be graded with a regular Bitcoin QR code.

With that, I am out. Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening wherever you may be. See you guys next time for your daily session. Hoddle by Bitcoin.