BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Mark Moss, Aleks Svetski, HODL Dee ep272

Episode Date: July 16, 2022

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? Awesome guests this week. Very excited to have them all on. And I'm obviously still remote. I'm in Vancouver now. Met some awesome people at meet up last night. Got a workshop going on tomorrow. And yeah, wrapping up my trip the next few days here. But you know, you got to get these out every single week. I can't miss chatting with my favorite bit corners. So glad to have it. them all here. Of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live. I can write it and we'll do it live. And thing sucks. If you have not already, like, subscribe, share, all those things super important.

They really do help the show and help get it in front of more eyeballs. Thanks to those you that have been doing that. I am Ben with the BTC Sessions. This is your daily session. All right, before we bring in our guests, let's take a look at where we are in the market right now. This is the Bitbo.com.I.O. dashboard. We're sitting at $20,959 per coin. A single U.S. dollar will grab you 4,771 sets in terms of, well, 90.93% percent.

of all Bitcoin have been mined. And when you're looking at fees, oh, up a little bit today. 35 sats per byte next block. That's the highest I've seen it in a while. If you're willing to wait an hour, though, considerably less, three sats per byte. So yeah, just keep that in mind if you're opening channels,

if you got anything expedient to do. You can still set those stats for byte low, but use RBF or whatever you need to do there. Shout out to sponsors to the show, shake pay.com if you're in Canada, easy way to stack sats. E transfers in and out, super simple, low, thin spread. If you sign up with the link down below after your first hundred bucks,

they'll give you $30 for free. You get an additional $30 bucks every time you refer a friend or family member with your link and they do the same. You can shake your phone every single day for free sats, which, by the way, always when I travel, I fucked up my streak again, so I'm back down to 100 sats, which piss me up. But hey, keep at it. Don't give up.

Anyways, check them out. Links are down below. Lenn.io, you can use your Bitcoin for a ton of different things. These guys have been particularly useful for me when I've been in a pinch cash flow-wise, and I do need some dollars, but I don't want to sell my Bitcoin. I can deposit, get a loan of dollars, pay back the dollars, get back the same amount of sats. And they have proof of reserves.

So they're not some D-Gen idiots that are doing all kind of crazy shit with your money. So, you know, take that for what it is. Still, obviously, exercise caution and only use what you need. Bitrefill.com, you can pick up tons of different gift cards for Bitcoin. So I'm living on a Bitcoin standard. This helps me a ton. I can pay via on-chain and via Lightning Network. I earn stats back as I shop.

You can earn additional stats back with their referral program. And they just rolled out bill payments in the U.S. So check them out. They can help you get on that Bitcoin standard if you need it. Keystone, air-gapped, hardware wallet goodness. definitely upgrade to the Bitcoin-only firmware. Works beautifully with Blue Wallet, Sparrow, Specter, all that kind of stuff. Awesome in a multi-sig.

I've done lots of multi-sig alongside things like Cold Card, alongside things like Foundation Passport, Treasurer, Ledger, all that kind of stuff. But all of those things in a multi-sig are super awesome alongside Keystone. So check them out. And finally, if you're backing up any important hardware wallet, solid steel, paper, not so great. So Bill Fottle over at Privacyprose.io, you can get your C phrase in solid steel. So you have some peace of mind against things like fire and water damage. So check them out.

All that stuff is down below. I'm going to stop my rambling, though, guys. It's been going on for too long. We need to get our guests in here. Very excited to have them all. We got D from Coin Kite. We got Mark Moss. We got Mr. Svetsky.

Gentlemen, it's good to see you all. I'm so glad to have you. I think let's do a quick round of intros so that anybody that's unfamiliar, gets acquainted. I'll start with you, Dee. Let people know who you are what you do. Yeah, absolutely. My name's Dee. Hoddle D on Twitter. I work for coin kites. I'm their support specialist. So if you're emailing support with a question about shipping or how to use a cold card, stuff like that, I'm your man. Like I said, I work for coin kite. So we sell the cold card. We sell the open dime, block clock back here, stats card, tap signer stuff coming

out very soon, stuff like that. Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. And yeah, thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Hey, Dean, can you give me some support on my block clock for some reason? It keeps losing the internet, the Wi-Fi all the time. Oh, yeah. NVK says I have to switch to 2G or something. Yeah, I'm going to say Wi-Fi, you know, it might not be the product, but I can send you a full list of stuff if you want. Love it. To a support call. I love it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hey, we don't have phones. Why are we bullish? You have to email.

Yeah. Yeah. Why are we bullish? Because we get support here. There we go. Svetsky, let people know who you are, what you do. These days, I am a full-time writer. This is kind of what I'm trying to transition my life towards.

And we will be, I assume, talking a little bit about the book that Mark Moss and I wrote. It's called the Uncommunist Manifesto. Ben's got a nice little shot of it there. It's a big, I guess it's a, not just to fuck you to the original communist manifesto, but more broadly speaking, a wake-up call to humanity, particularly in the terrible times or in the strange times we live. I guess some elements of it are terrible. But I think people might know me from either Amber, which is a company I founded back in Australia,

which is similar to Shake Pay. They might know me from the Bitcoin Times. which is a publication that I produce annually, or from the Bitcoin magazine articles, all right, or from the podcast I do, or from the shit posting on Twitter. I love the shit posting.

I also got the Kickstarter on the manifesto coming, so I'm waiting for it, waiting for it in the mail. Yeah, man, it's, well, I can tell you that the, so since we're on a support call here, oh yeah, perfect. It is with the fulfillment people, so hopefully they'll be shipping out very shortly.

That's all good. I'm a low time preference kind of person. So I can wait. That's good. That's good. Awesome. Mark, you're up,

let people know who we are, what you do. Yeah. Thanks. So, yeah, like Alex said, we both kind of co-wrote this book.

So kind of got that going on. I like to create a lot of content, specifically, you know, around Bitcoin and greater macroeconomics and geopolitics. I create probably six to eight hours of content a week across my YouTube channel, National Syndicated Radio. show I have and a podcast, so three different outlets with three different types of content,

but all circulating around BICWI, specifically, like I said, geopolitics and macroeconomics-wise. I'd like to put out a lot of content. I sometimes do a lot of posting on Twitter and then sometimes I run out of time and don't do it. And lately, I've been going around speaking quite a bit. I'm in Vegas right now speaking at Freedom Fest, which is a pretty cool event that I'm checking up for the first time. But yeah, a whole lot of talking about Bitcoin. Awesome. Well, guys, I'm glad to have you all. Of course, everybody watching, this is Why Are We Bullish? If you're unfamiliar with the format of the show, effectively, each one of us is coming with a reason for being bullish, whatever that may be. However you want to frame it, doesn't matter. Whatever has you excited is fair game, assuming it's for Bitcoin and not shitcoins. But with that said, yeah, yeah, of course. But pretty much, we go by the three R's. Somebody's going to drop,

a reason for being bullish, then we're all going to riff on that reason, and then we're going to rotate, really simple, really casual, and we'll just let the conversation take us where it leads us. So I'm going to start with my reason for being bullish, first off. Oh, and actually, I, you know, I always have a particular reason for being bullish every single week that a certain gentleman is here. And he's my favorite person. And I just saw him pop in.

So I got to give him a shout out because I never, I never leave him unattended. But there's a gentleman named David Wong. He loves the show. He's here almost every Friday, sometimes hours in advance. And he fucking hates Bitcoin. But he's here every Friday. And he just wants to let us know like how wrong we are every week. So David would like everybody to know, bullish on Bitcoin is a dead game, though.

So, David, I appreciate your input. Thank you for being here. Never change. Never leave. I will see you now and forever every week on Friday. But my real reason for being bullish, I'll segue into that. I was in a meetup last night. And I think this person didn't believe me when I told them that they were going to be my reason for being bullish or they informed my reason for being bullish.

But I told them last night, this person that I met, her name is Celine. And she was tasked by Blockstream to basically like redo the UI on what used to be green address back in the day. And then updated it to become what is now Blockstream green. And so she did as part of the meetup, she did a little presentation on like UI and making things easier to access, more intuitive to use. And I think the reason that I bullish this weekend was informed by her talk because I think UI in Bitcoin is is beginning to get to a place where it's beginning to improve and get

better. And it's not, it's definitely not perfect because we all know that there's, there's easy interfaces and then there's like Bitcoin easy. And we have different. thresholds for that where uh so you know a bitcoiner will look at something and say like oh yeah this is pretty simple to use and and uh you know somebody that's just cutting their teeth and just starting to get into bitcoin will be like holy shit what am i even looking at um but it's definitely improving and so when i think of that you know the example of you know green address to block stream green

that that overhaul you know it made it look nice it was a lot more into to use. I love stuff like that. I've seen improvements when it comes to like various wallet interfaces, things like Blue Wallet where anybody can grab it, things like Moon where they've done like a singular balance and you're able to use Bitcoin and Lightning. Even in terms of hardware, like D, you're on, you're going to be, I'm sure, talking about Cold Card at some point. But things where I know Rodolfo I obviously Rodolfo's like okay you got to

it's going to be air gap it's never going to touch an internet connection we're going to use the SD card to air gap it uh you know I'm going to scratch off this this fucking circuit so that the NFC is disabled all of that shit and I love that but I think even Rudolfo has gone to the point where he's like there's going to be different levels

of people that kind of where they're at in the midst of claiming their self-sovereignty. And so, you know, he's got this, you know, the ability to do NFC tap that's going to be, you know, used with Blue Wallet and whoever else decides to implement it. The tap signer, like this push towards having options for NFC where it's like you're, you're better off than a hot wallet, you're better off than having it with some shitty custodian. And it's, you know, it's not as tinfoil had as air-gapped microSD cards.

but it's it's there and it's a definite step in the right direction for somebody that wouldn't have done self-custody in the first place. So I see this developing in a lot of different places and people starting to think about how do we package something to get more people claiming more of their self-sovereignty, even when it comes down to things like running a node. I know some people have some people should. shit on umbrile for the licensing in and around how you can use their software but they've also onboarded a fuck ton of people to run their own bitcoin notes and and start tinkering with their

own lightning notes and part of that is because they absolutely nailed the ui yes and even if you don't like how the licensing around the software works what they've done is effectively said here's the bar of where it needs to be where people will make that leap to run something like this. And now all the, everybody who's saying like, yeah, but we want it more open. We want, you know, we want it, you know, full open source software, all that kind of stuff. Well, now you have a threshold of kind of what that user experience needs to be like while maintaining that. And so you've got to meet that in order to start pulling users from that.

And it's raised that bar for everybody. So, you know, in the end, I think it's a positive thing. I know that, you know, Svetsky, you've had experience with Amber and trying to make it as simple for people to self-custody their coins. You know, D, you're dealing with it every day. You see the pain points of what users have trouble with and everything. So I think I'm just going to open it up to you guys. I'm going to say, what are your feelings around UI current? where it's coming from and where it's going to,

do you think we're at least headed in the right direction? So whoever wants to dive in, feel free. Yeah, I was just going to touch on the point where, you know, you're saying that optionality, right? Optionality is great, but also some people, you know, only want a specific thing. So like you're talking about, you know, even stripping off that little radio connection on the NFC thing.

So, you know, your device isn't a radio anymore. People love to have that ability to, you know, knock that out if they don't want it. But I think NFC is really great because it, you know, there's a bridge that we're trying to meet people, right? Like we don't have our own app associated with the cold card. And that's, you know, for layers reasons. You know, we want to be in control, not in control, but, you know, we want to have the device and build it. And we want, you know, Sparrow wallet and them to focus more on the software, right?

We don't want to try and outcompete Sparrow because Sparrow is absolutely amazing. but optionality is great and yeah just just having that convenience for people that want it you know if we want to tap you want to have like a semi hot wallet that's fantastic but you can have the option of not having that radio signal coming out as well that's that's the goal right because we got to bridge that gap somehow and it is a little tricky right you want you want the best experience but you also want security so we don't want to sacrifice security for for convenience is it's kind of what I'm trying to say. Alex, curious on your thoughts.

Where are we right now? Yeah, I mean, we're moving in the right direction. So I've spent a couple days now in Nashville here with Odell and Rod and the guys at the new Bitcoin Park. And I mean, if that, if Bitcoin Park is an example of the UI for Bitcoin being enhanced, like this spot is make as hell. but today I was actually just before this I was at a workshop and there was two products in particular I mean probably three even uh whiz got up and did a workshop on mempool.

dot space and I mean you look at mempool dot space it's beautiful like remember the block explorers that we had three four years ago you're trying to figure out where your transaction is like they sucked um memple dot space is beautiful and you know the real emphasis on visualization and helping people actually see, yeah, like the the mempool itself filling up. Like, this has helped me explain how Bitcoin works better than just about any other tool from a, you know, just from a conceptualization standpoint. So, you know, there's movement there.

The other presentation was John from Zapright, who's got that little invoicing app. And once again, fucking amazing. I've, I watched him and it was like, you know, nice and smooth, create an invoice, you know, get paid. So literally straight after that, I came back home or came back to this shitty apartment. And yeah, I set it up, create an invoice. I'm like, man, this is once again, Schmick. And you see John's background is actually in user interface and design. So we're moving in the right direction.

And then the third one was voltage. And, you know, they're probably. more on the user experience than the user interface, right? And they're making the ability to run your own node, particularly run your own line node better. So yeah, I think all of these things are moving in the right direction. And yeah, to, to shill, Amber, as you said, like, that was always our goal. And I think still to date, like Amber is one of the, you know, most world-class kind of apt to just buy Bitcoin. It's just so simple. It's got some cool order. And it just makes that process nice and easy.

Whereas, I mean, you look at the binances and shit of the world, they're complete fucking, like those guys have rammed everything in the kitchen sink. It's, you know, into one platform. You don't know what the fuck is what. And I think, you know, Bitcoin products and people are doing a good job at trying to, you know, get this worked out. And I mean, Bitcoin is also the funniest. Like, you know, we've got that buy the shift button and stuff.

that we're always like controlling everyone it's fucking hilarious so um you know that this is like we i don't know i think we are transcending just the easy to use for bitcoins as he said to uh easy to use in general and and in some cases i mean we may very shortly out compete and get better than the uh you know the status quo that is like the the traditional finance and everything like like the stripes and the um and all of that of the world i mean you know we've probably still got a little way to go with a few things but man come two three more years i think it'll actually be way easier to do anything on bitcoin than it is to do anything in the legacy system and particularly those idiots keep tying themselves in fucking knots anyway like i mean you know there is some good

products out there like i use wise um which is a you know kind of neobank out of um out of england and they're a great product like they started off as transfer wise and it was, you know, they went after the Western Union business model and now they're kind of like a banking app with multi-currencies and they've always been great. But, you know, they're getting tied up in red tape and, you know, bureaucratic regulatory crap and all this sort of shit. The other, it was about a month ago. I tried to send just some dollars from my account to my trust account. And fuck, man, they hit me with like, who's the trust, where's it going to? What's the money? I was like, motherfucker. It's a thousand dollars, first of all. Go fuck yourself.

And number two, that money got locked up for three weeks, like, while they were validating the transaction. And do you know what? I was actually sending it for a margin call. So lucky I ended up sending money elsewhere because I would have got fucking liquidated. So it's just like the legacy system is going to get keep, you know, while there is a lot of talents of developers working on UIUX, the underneath what they're working with is one big fucking dumpster fire that is being red. taped over by bureaucrats, whereas Bitcoin doesn't have that. And, you know, we've got to play catch up on the surface. But what we're working with under the hood is orders of magnitude better.

It's an internal combustion engine versus a fucking, you know, horse and carriage. So, yeah, I think a couple more years, 2025, we're fucking, like, people will seriously have to be mentally deranged to be setting up a standard, you know, merchant app without, whether it's a motion app or an account, i.e. a Bitcoin wallet, etc., it's going to be so much easier. Yeah, 100%. Mark, what are your feelings on

where we are, where we're headed? Yeah, a couple of things that were said there that I really like. So, Spetsky just said, you know, in another three to four years. So I just like to always get perspective and like we're still super early in this. And so, you know, I got on the internet probably 95-ish, you know,

and it was like still dial up. It was like super difficult. In 1999, I thought I was going to get smart, get super rich because me and my buddy started this internet business. And we had to actually set servers up in my own office. And they were like raid five, hot swappable hard drives. There was no like cloud storage, nothing like that. So it was very difficult.

And I watched that whole transition. And it took a long time. And it was very difficult in the beginning, but it got easier and easier. And so I think we all have to be a little bit patient. And so as Fetki said, you know, a couple years. I would also say that I think it's, already is pretty easy. I think you could download a blue wallet,

receive and send Bitcoin, about as easy as you could download Venmo and probably easier. You could probably do it easier than you could download a Venmo wallet and send them to receive Venmo. Because Venmo has more K-YC that you'd have to go through. So I think it's probably about just as easy. It's going to get easier. I see your favorite person, David Wong, here saying,

you know, I don't see any good reason to replace Visa or MasterCard. We don't worry about all this mempool crap. And the thing that I would say about that, and it kind of you started out with saying is that, you know, there's, there's, there's a spectrum of self-sovereignty that you want to take. And so I think a lot of times it's a mistake maybe to try to thrust all of this onto the new user right in beginning, hey, you should buy some Bitcoin. By the way, run your own node and manage the Mimpool. Where it's like, hey, how about download blue wall and do a couple transactions? And then maybe figure out a hardware wallet and then maybe figure out a node in it, like different levels of that. And so like, the average person doesn't need to know about the MMPO. And eventually they won't need to know about that all. But in regards to UIUX and bullishness, it wasn't the tweet necessarily, but over the last couple weeks, I've been out in Austin and a couple of different places that I went and just got food at. For example, on their point of cell system, they had the cash app or the square point of cell system. And right up right there, I just brought up the QR code and I can open up my cash app and I can choose if I want to pay with Bitcoin through a QR code. And that is the easiest UIUX that I've ever seen.

and I think that's super bullish and it'll bring all these people in make it just as easy or easier, in my opinion, than even a Visa or MasterCard to Wong's thing. I was going to say Wong should try to use Visa MasterCard in Russia. Yeah, so you don't need to know about the Google. You can just use your Square Cash app deal. You can send dollars or Bitcoin, whatever you want.

And if you want to have more control and want to be able to manage that better, you can, but you don't have to. So I'm bullish on that. I'm bullish on seeing that in the actual merchants. I think it's going to be amazing for adoption. And I think it already is as easy as Venmo and it's only going to get better. Yeah.

Yeah. It's it's it's all definitely trending in the right direction. And and like you were saying, you know, cash up scanning QR code, choosing how you want to pay. I think as as more of that integration happens and and people just have that optionality. It exposes them to Bitcoin. So at least when a time comes where they actually need it, where legacy finance inevitably fails them and they get censored and removed from platforms or whatever it may be,

they know at least the process of executing a transaction. And then just have to be, unfortunately, you know, they'll probably get burned a little bit in that process. process, but they'll know more or less how the system functions outside of the legacy system. So the more kind of crossover we see there prior to that happening, the more quickly those people will be able to transition when they have to, which is fantastic. I love that. So with that, I'll wrap up this topic because I want to get to you guys.

They're always the important ones. So there are obviously people in the chat. I'm going to thank you for all commenting. I'll be pulling up more of your messages as we move on, hopefully not distracting people on screen too much while doing that. But yeah, let's rotate. I'm going to toss it to D here. And I'll just open it up to you.

What are you excited about this week, man? What has you bullish? Yeah, absolutely. I guess it's a little bit more general than kind of this week. But I'm very bullish on education. You know, since getting in the space about three years ago, you know, going on Twitter, you know, books that people have been writing, stuff like that. I find that there's so much wealth of knowledge now than there was back when I even just got back in or got into it. So, you know, like we had spaces.

I think it's been about a year and a half now. And it's been, it's blown my mind, right? Like, I want to be more of a reader. I have a few books here that I've purchased that I'm going to start reading a little more to get more in depth. But space is just alone has, has, has, is just a wealth of knowledge. And, you know, listening to people like Spetsky even earlier today, it was great just, just even just listening in. I think COVID really woke me up. You know, I invested a little bit in Bitcoin before, but it wasn't, you know, it was just money go up kind of thing.

But once you kind of got down in the nitty gritty, you see all this stuff with, you know, COVID lockdowns, permission versus permission list stuff. I think a lot of people woke up, especially in the past two years here. I obviously included. And if I woke up, then I think thousands of others have as well. You know, here in Canada, we've had a few issues with, you know, like said, with our governments and COVID stuff. Wait, what are you talking about? What happened? Yeah, yeah, actually, it's great here.

I missed it. We're free. We're the freest country in the world. No, yeah. So I personally got affected by a lot of this. stuff. And that's actually how I found Coin Kite. You know, I got laid off from my job for a little bit there and they were hiring and, you know, I love educating people. It was on Twitter a lot. So thankfully, MBK gave me the opportunity to help educate others. And so like I said, I'm really bullish on the

education part of all this. Like I said, there's so much knowledge and wealth, wealth of knowledge available nowadays than there was in the past. And yeah, so that's why I'm bullish. I'd echo that. I think education in the space has improved fully. I think one proof of that is this was kind of this past bull run was one of the first times that I saw people coming into the space and more or less immediately, like there was a number of people that immediately went Bitcoin only. I hadn't seen that before, especially not at the pace of which it happened the past. the past the past couple of years here. And I think that's just due to the fact that there's there's been time to

cohesively put out, to really distill down the thought process of why Bitcoin is different from everything else. And there's so many places that you can go. And at the, while many people frame it with a lot of different metaphors and through different means. At the end of the day, the general message is the same. And I think when people experience that and they see all of these different narratives that kind of come down to the same message, the same general message, and then you look at the alternative of the ping ponging narratives of why shitcoins are necessary that, you know, flip flop between, oh, we need it for this. Oh,

wait that Bitcoin can do that now. Well, we actually need it for this. And you know, this is this is a world computer and now it's ultrasound money and now it's whatever else. People notice those inconsistency over time. And so people that have been around

they got to see a bunch of it. But new people that have come in, they seem to, if they start in a decent place and they go down that rabbit hole, then it's pretty tough to convince them. otherwise if they've been exposed to quality educational material so yeah yeah yeah

absolutely oh you go ahead sorry I was just gonna echo that I think that point is really poignant is that yeah most previous and I mean this is sort of like I don't know if it's my second or third run but it's um this round has genuinely seen more people become Bitcoin max is way quicker. And I've noticed that for sure as well. Like people coming in 2020, 2020, 2021,

they're straight up like gone down the Bitcoin piece. So it seems like the outreach that people like you, Ben have been doing like, you know, Mark, like, you know, I mean, we always had like the age of the Bitcoin,

you know, maxi philosopher slash like, you know, hardcore, you know, person, you know, sort of this last period. And, And it's funny, I've got a theory about this as well.

It's, I think this class of Bitcoin is, you know, the more recent one, at least. You know, there's something different about them and kind of like the class of 2011, 2012, 2012, 2013 sort of thing. It's like, and I mean, I think, Ben, you're probably kind of 2013, 2014, I'm guessing, kind of in that range. Yeah. So right before you, I think, and, you know, the class was a bit different, which is they wound up on such a fat stack of Bitcoin because they bought it at a dollar. it was like almost you know luck really like and i know some of them had like genuine conviction and all of that but you know by and large like the roger versa of the world like i mean he got it but i mean motherfucker i like i've been on such a stack like he didn't have to really work for a ridiculous

amount so i feel like if he came into bitcoin particularly i know you know harsma cook for example back in australia like he started buying at a thousand right he started down all the way down and you had to like suffer through that first bear market and be called an idiot and all of that. So having to kind of live through the bear market does something to you, but also having to take a significant amount of your actual net worth. So like for someone to acquire an entire Bitcoin right now, I mean, you know, that's like it's a lot, man. You've got to probably save up for a year, right? And maybe you'll get one Bitcoin, even at current prices because you've got to think about how much the cost of living is increased. Now, a couple years back, you know, maybe we would have been able to get 10 Bitcoin

for like working your ass off for a whole year. And that kind of one to 10 or 10 to 50 sort of range seems to have created a kind of Bitcoiner that really had to put their balls on the line and go in, go all in, and wasn't a huge income earner, you know what I mean? Like, because with 500 bucks in 2011, you could have had 500 Bitcoin. you know, that ain't going to happen now. Like, it's going to take a significant amount of effort. So, and I think there's something to be said about that and the kind of education and content that has emerged from that.

And therefore, the kind of signal that has emerged from that so that when new people are coming, you know, there's, you know, there's something they can relate to. It's very hard for a person coming in 2020 or 2021 who has to buy a Bitcoin at 60 grand to relate to someone who bought the Bitcoin at 60 cents. Like, it's a fucking complete. different world. They just can't get that. So anyway, I think that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Mark, how about you? Yeah, I would say, I mean, back to the education, I mean, it's amazing, the type of education that's out there. And I got in a little bit later in the class of,

I guess, 2015, and there wasn't that much education. It is still somewhat amazing with the amount of education that we have and everything from the philosophical, philosophical take, you got the historical takes, you got the technical takes, you got all these. different areas, depending on how you want to learn it. You don't see any education like this on any of the other 19,000 alt coins that are out there. No. Not even, yeah, you know, not even Ethereum, which, you know, is probably second biggest or whatever, Cardano, whatever. They don't have that education out there.

It's weird to think about that, that they can still continue to grow. But yeah, it's easier than ever to get it, to grasp it. and it should make it easier for people to understand it and have that conviction, which I think to the point Alex is making, it has because it's a lot harder these days. You can't just dunk your way into it. So super bullish in that. I think we still have the problem is, you know, leading a horse to water, but can you make them drink? So it's like the information is there.

Will they take the time to absorb it? But, you know, each of us are doing it in a little bit of a different way, approaching it from a different angle. and I'm a fan of individualism. The more individuals we have that see different approaches, we're able to reach different people. And it's only continuing to grow and we're able to build on top of each other. You know, we're able to pull stuff out of the past and bring it forward again.

And yeah, super bullish on that. So just before we kind of wrap this topic, I wanted to ask you guys a question in terms of your own education. education, what parts of learning Bitcoin, whether it be like the practical or just certain concepts, what did you find most difficult to wrap your head around as you were getting into Bitcoin? What were the stumbling blocks for you where you, it took you a little bit of extra time where you had to find something to help you through it? Did anybody have anything in particular that comes to the top of mind?

I think a lot of people, including myself, kind of got in by trial by fire. You know, I definitely got scammed in the early days. Maybe not the one Bitcoin for two Bitcoin thing. But, you know, I was big into Forex trading and I was learning graphs and just getting my toes wet. And some guy was like, hey, you know, let me help you out. Like here, send me some Bitcoin. Like, you know, decent amount. You know, I'm like, oh, yeah, sure, great.

You know, this is going to help me trade. Okay, cool. and then obviously learned very fast about the immutability part and how you cannot get that back whatsoever. So that was definitely a really fast learn for me, express ship there because, yeah, obviously lost a decent chunk of money and it was very, you know, sad about that. But that really made me put my nose to the books and listen in onto lots of these things and, you know, jump over to Twitter and kind of understand like, what is this?

Like, I just got scammed. Like, how do I, like, you know, what is this thing? So that really, uh, the trial by fire thing is definitely, uh, the best way, I think. But really unfortunate, obviously, people lose money. Um, but I think it's the best way, uh, hopefully use a little bit instead of a lot. But is it the cost of tuition, man. Exactly. Hey, yeah.

It was cheaper than a year at college. So I guess, you know, it paid off, right? That's fair. Yeah. Spetsky, how about you? What, what kind of stuff? Like, did you have anything in particular that took a little while, something that was a challenge? I, hmm.

I mean, I, I guess I'm a little bit binary in this sense is that if something is pissing me off and it's a little bit challenging, I just say, fuck you. And I'd rather pay someone else to do it. So like, for example, at one point I was thinking of doing, you know, setting up a lightning node and shit like that. and I started fucking around with like channels and this and I was like you know what fuck lightning I'll let the nodes deal with that shit I'm just going to stay on chain like I love my own chain Bitcoin just give me an address just send it to me that's it fucking you know this you got to use my decorer man it's only it's it's a solid hour and a half yeah easy yeah I think I'd rather put a chainsaw to my nuts you know like

it's just you know the so there's like a threshold for me so that's kind of like I need an activation energy so maybe at some point like I'll want to do it like I remember I was even talking to Nate yesterday at voltage and you know they obviously make it a lot easier but even then I still don't want to do it I'm just like fuck you just kind of just like except Bitcoin like on chain right so that you know for me is like you know I've got a threshold and that's just the thing for me like I want to actually learn how to do something properly before screwing around with it. So, and for me to do that, I actually want to set some time aside to learn how to do that. So that's why, yeah, running a lightning node, for example, I haven't done.

And BTC pay server also drove me fucking crazy when I was trying to set that up as well. I know that's gotten a little bit easier now as well. But yeah, there's still kind of, I think the lightning threshold for me is where I kind of, personally at this point draw the line and I will need to take some time to get into that unless it's abstracted to the part I don't know maybe that it'll be like the Spetsky indicator as when lightning's ready so probably you're like you know what I could do that when I'm not rage quitting anymore then we know the lightning yeah apparently that's when lightning has made it so yeah I like that.

I've got an umbril note in the market, right? Yeah. Dee, sorry, what were you saying? No, I was just going to say, um, it was pretty nice,

pretty convenient, you know, nice UI like you were saying for setup. Um, but, um, yeah, I've been playing around with a little bit with the channels,

but yeah, I'm with you. I feel like I got to put way more time aside and actually know what I'm doing. Uh, I've just had channels with some friends and, uh, but, uh,

getting there, getting there. It takes time. It takes time. I agree. It's a learning curve for sure. And this is where it plays into it, like there's those in-between options where you don't have to be setting up your own light.

Like moon in the background kind of automates that. So you can receive on-chain and then it's instantly accessible via lightning, but it's still your coins. Like you're not giving up custody. So there's some technological magic in the background there. So yeah. Maybe a plug for, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, you finish.

And then I was just going to say, I was going to say, I don't know if Mark still doing it, but Zion, I heard, is actually really good for that as well. Nice plug and play. Yeah. The one that I was going to say was multi-sig is another one that I actually got into that one. So that one I worked out quite well. And I think one of the things that helped along the way was I was like an early unchanged user. And using their initial multisig interface was helpful.

Yeah. And then extending that to using Caravan. was quite easy for me. So then I've got this whole like elaborate multi-seg set up for my, you know, the bulk of my stash, which I mean, I can't even fucking get the shit out anymore like without traveling to 10 different countries and finding all my fucking wallets and shit like that. So God can't touch my money.

So I'm kind of safe in that sense. It'll be a cosmic joke if I never am able to touch the shit. But at least I know it's safe. Yeah. That's great. You can't get it. No one can. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's great.

I'm sorry, Mark, I'll let you tag in here. Yeah, I would say, you know, what is it? Necessities, the Mother of Invention kind of a thing, right? And it's like we're all motivated by different things. And I would say for me and the education kind of path, I came into this, I came into Bitcoin being a gold bug. And so I already got the money side of things, right? I already understood the Fiat money system, the problems that it caused, the reason why we need to sound money. So I kind of got it from that perspective, which I think really helped out my education process at this event I'm at right now, Freedom Fest.

I've been talking to people about Bitcoin and like they don't even have an understanding of money. And so it's like very difficult for them to even grasp Bitcoin because they don't even really understand how money works. But I did have that. That was helpful for me. But probably similar to what Dee said, I didn't get scammed, but I did lose Bitcoin through a hot wallet on my phone. I lost money sitting in an exchange that disappeared out of an exchange. And so unfortunately, you know, I touched the stove and I got burned and I had to learn to not touch that stove again. I still use some hardware wallets, the bulk of it I also set up on a multi-sig.

I tried like heck to set up my own multi-sig. I watched plenty of your videos sessions. Thank you for that. Try to, you know, get all that set up on my own and, you know, you got to download this and you got to verify this piece of code and make sure this is that-da-da-da. And I'm like, oh my gosh. You know, I spent an hour or two. I got my own node and I'm trying to get it all my node. And let me try it with Exodus.

Let me try it with Spector. And finally I'm like, dude, I'm not a coder. Like I got to verify all these things. If I get one thing wrong, it's all in jeopardy, you know, screw that. So then I used unchained in their concierge service. But again, that was kind of this learning process I had to go through first by showing that I needed it. By losing money both on my phone and from an exchange, which sucked. Not money, losing Bitcoin.

I pick my money. But then trying to go through this process like Spetsky, a little bit rage quitting. But then luckily there's services out there that help. And so that was beneficial for me. Yeah. I've got to say, like I've got hats off to Unchained and kind of what they've done there

because it's, it's one of those things where, you know, there's, there's an element of privacy tradeoff there because, you know, Unchained will, we'll inherently know your balance by

by having a key in that multi-sake. But it's kind of one of those future services where, you know, we've transcended giving up custody. And you've just, all you've given up is a little bit of privacy in exchange for somebody to hold a key so that you can fuck up pretty badly and still be totally fine. Like in a two of three, you would have, you'd have a couple of. devices and a backup for each device. So you'd have four things. And you could literally lose 75% of all the important shit you had. And you'd still be okay.

You could go to them and be like, guys, you won't believe how much I screwed up. And I need your help. And you'd still be fine. And that's kind of like peace of mind you get where not necessarily, you know, Bitcoiners tend to be a little bit more conscious after some time of keeping important things. in the right places. But for family members, something weren't happening to me, I like the idea that a family member can be like, I've got this one thing and I've got

proof that I'm next of kin and then be able to go to somebody and be like, can you help me out and they'd be all right? At least with like a portion of your stack, I think that's, that's fantastic. So, yeah, let's wrap this topic here. D, thank you for that. Yeah, you're right. Education, it's one of the things that I think has been progressing kind of the quickest in Bitcoin. And it's been incredibly helpful.

So with that, let's do a rotation here. We're going to toss it to Svetsky. Dude, you're up next. Let me know. What are you excited about? What has you bullish? You guys both took like the two good things, you fucking pricks. Sorry.

I think maybe I'll say this one like the Bitcoin hive mind is a is an interesting thing. So there's like this sense of how can I put this in English that is understandable for Wong is my inspiration now. I think I think there's a something about Bitcoin is in their instinct or intuition where we seem to converge on particular ideas or truths or something like that that um i don't know we just seem to swarm and we're all thinking about it at the same time and i don't know if it's just like brain farts on twitter that we subconsciously notice but don't notice that kind of get us in the um oh hey yellow um that kind of get us on the same page or if it's something deeper than that but that seems to me to be a special part of, I guess, that's like a micro piece of a more macro

group of individuals who are kind of interested in some higher order values. So maybe the way I'd extend this thought is I've kind of, I'm trying to popularize a new meme so you guys can help me. It's a, I'm trying to call Bitcoin responsibility go up technology. And, you know, we, you know, the whole NGI. has been going off for a while now. And that's great, but it ain't so great when it's NGD and it's working the opposite fucking way. And as much as we don't care about that,

like the people that we've gotten into it, they kind of look at us as a bunch of morons for a little while, and they're like, well, you said this, but clearly NGU tech is broken. And I think there's a more important theme going on here, which is this reclaiming of individual. agency and this reclaiming of individual responsibility. And the more I, the more I riff on this, the more I talk about it, the more I think about it, the more I believe that that is like the

fundamental underpinning for a free society, a free civilization, and of strong constituents in a civilization. So if individuals are supposed to be free, they must also be responsible, because if they're not responsible, you can't trust them to be free. And then you actually need to have a draconian, you know, society full of mandates and top-down control, because if you have a bunch of irresponsible kids running around, you know, you get Lord of the flies. And at the moment, the world is effectively, you know, it's kind of both the fault of the lemmings and the parasitic class, like simultaneously feeding off each other, like the parasitic class thinking that everyone's too dumb to give them any responsibility, so they keep taking agency

away and then the lemmings kind of saying well fuck you know you're already doing this much for me so why don't you also do this and do this and they kind of keep giving responsibility away and what ends up happening is you know the the adaptability of humans is a double-edged sword you know like we can adapt to more responsibility as individuals and and actually build a free civilization uh or we can adapt to less responsibility and therefore a cage. And I kind of noticed this in 2020, right? Like, if you asked me three or four years ago and said, you know what, in a couple years,

people won't be able to go to a restaurant without showing their papers and wearing a face diaper. I would have been like, get the fuck out of here, man. No one will lower, will degrade themselves to that level. Like, no one will drop their dignity. and continue eating at that restaurant that restaurant will go fucking bankrupt overnight what happened a couple billion people degraded themselves and literally walked into places with face diapers on and lowered their own sense of esteem and adapted downward they adapted fucking downward they

they de-civilized themselves they dehumanized themselves um and that's kind of the the negative element of our capacity to adapt so it's like we either adapt by taking on more responsibility and, you know, we adapt towards freedom or we adapt towards safety in a cage by giving up agency and responsibility. So I guess to tie this back to Bitcoin, it seems to me to be the only bright spot in a world that is too busy trying to point blame for everything on everyone else. And I don't care if it's the left, the right, the fucking the up, the down, or the around in circles or the trans or whoever the fuck it is these days.

is pointing at everyone. And yet, you know, Bitcoin is to our fair share of pointing at everyone as well. Like we, you know, call everyone out, call them all scammers. And, you know, we're really good at that. But at the end of the day, like the, it comes from a place of a, you know, don't trade on me, leave me alone. I want to own and control my own shit. And we actually are trying to become adults again. And I think the future of the world, and this is sort of where I'll try and close it, is like those of us who can come out of this more responsible, more sovereign, more self-sufficient, I think we are fundamentally going to inherit the world. And those who do not, they're fundamentally going to inherit their own gulags.

And who knows, they might not even fucking realize they're in a gulag. They might be fucking happy. They might own nothing and be happy and have no privacy and live in a technocratic panopticon. And I think in a sense, you know, civilization might have to bifacate a little bit. And there'll be really interesting, cool people to talk to that, you know, are relatively sovereign and self-sufficient, et cetera. And there'll be these other weird-ass fucking lemmings, doped up on soma and Netflix and Uber Eats and, you know, a subscription booster. And, you know, they're going to do their thing. So I don't know.

That makes me bullish on Bitcoin. And I'm glad we've got it. And I think that places us in a strong place for us, our children, our children's children. I love responsibility go up because so up until Bitcoin, so few people were seeking that, right? Nobody was like, hey, you know what? I want more responsibility. I want to put forth the extra effort so that I have more freedom. and I'm able to kind of steer my own ship.

Everybody was on the train of, oh, you'll do it for me. And yeah, like you then kind of have power over me, but it's easier. I'll go that route. You've got an app for that. I can give you all my money and you'll just deal with it. You've got a fund and it'll just come off my paycheck every month.

And I don't understand any of where my money is going. but you say that it'll get me to retirement probably. And name your area. Nobody was seeking responsibility go up. Everybody was seeking responsibility go down. I want it done for me. I don't want any of it on my own shoulders. And I want easy bailouts if something goes wrong,

not understanding the massive tradeoffs that come with that. Bitcoin is the first thing. In quite a while, I've seen where people crave more of that responsibility, where people say, you know, there's, where somebody would go down the rabbit hole of learning about Bitcoin, how, you know, on its face, you're interested in it because maybe you don't trust the monetary policy of your local currency. and then you don't trust leaving your money with other people, so you go down the route of self-custody, and then you maybe don't trust having a hot wallet, so you go down the hardware route, and then maybe you don't trust having your funds on a single type of hardware wallet,

so you have different devices, and maybe go down the multi-sig route, and then you go, well, I have self-custust. but who's who's feeding me my information about the Bitcoin blockchain. I think I want the responsibility of running my own copy of the Bitcoin blockchain. Like in what other world do people continue down that responsibility go up rabbit hole? And it's it's ever present in Bitcoin. And so many people are so interested in tinkering and taking that next step.

And I think the more people we can funnel into, and I guess this ties into the previous, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, and, and even the UI thing, too, the easier that we make it,

the more resources that we give, the more likely people will start going down the rabbit hole of responsibility go up. And, and I fucking love to see it. So I'll, I'll, I'll,

I'll, I'll, to Mark or D if you want to tag into what Spetsky was saying. Yeah, Alex and I talked about this a lot and shout out to the book, Uncommonist. We talk about it in the book as well and just responsibility.

And one of the reasons why Marxism is so strong is because it basically enabled people to get rid of all that responsibility, right? Marx's line was to each according to their ability, each according to their need, which means basically just do whatever you can and you'll have everything that you need back. And so there's a strong. attraction there because everyone says, oh, I don't need to be responsible. I can just

basically do whatever I want and get everything back. So there's something that we talked a lot about. I've been, I've been kind of hitting on this theme. I talk a lot about centralization and decentralization. I've been talking about the blow off top of socialism and how basically we've all, for a long period of time, continue to give more and more to the nanny state. Hey, take care of my education. Take care of my retirement. Take care of my health care. Take care. Right. Just take it all. Just take it all. Tell me what to eat. Give me the food pyramid. like just everything. It's worked out really well when you look at obesity rates, eh?

Oh, yeah. I mean, everything, right? And so it's just like this blow off top, right? What happens in the market, right? It kind of moves slowly. And then it starts hitting that parabolic run at the top, right? It gets volatile and then it blows off. And so we've given more, more, more, no responsibility.

Take care of me, take care of me. And now it's super volatile at top. And I think we're about to have a blow off there. So I think it's definitely responsibility go up. I like that. We're going to help meme that. I see somebody here, MGS Smith says a lot of Bitcoiners LARP on sovereignty, but when it comes to their own bodily sovereignty,

they outsource their health to the state. I don't know if I would agree with that. Not a lot of Bitcoiners. I think a lot of Bitcoiners are taking full responsibility for themselves. I mean, when I look at the Bitcoin ecosystem, stereotypically, I see people that are into their health. I see people that are cutting out seed oils and are going on carnivore diets. I see people that are saving for long term.

I see people that are building on solid foundations. And they're very passionate about their bodily sovereignty. Not all of them, but I think overall. So, yeah, it forces you to think long term. When you think long term, it forces you to kind of take control of all those things back. And I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg type thing where it's like, does Bitcoin attract those types of people that already can see long term, they're out of the box thinkers, or does Bitcoin turn people into those? Maybe some of both. I don't really know. I'll pass it back off, but I do

want to say yellow. Yeah, my face is just beaming light. Yellow, you got me. And Meta says, I'm a professional. I got lights. No, I'm actually working from an old laptop in a hotel room, so I think my camera's just... He's got so... No light from his coming out of him. Is Mark's face also a light source. What is going on that? I love that. But anyway, yeah, number go up. It's better to say responsibility to go up. We're responsible for ourselves. I put out a tweet a few weeks ago, said I think the age of personal responsibility is going to snap back. And it's going to snap back hard. So what I was thinking about was two separate issues at hand. One, I was thinking about all these people that lost money in the Terraluna, Celsius, Voyager, et cetera, all the people that lost that.

They were told that, hey, we can just give our money up and they'll guard it for me and maybe I'll earn a little bit of yield. And they learn the hard way. And I don't take, I know a lot of people rejoice in that. I don't. It's super painful. But they're going to learn a lesson, hopefully, right? And then I was also thinking about, unfortunately, you know, I have someone I know, my wife's friend, she went to the hospital and they were trying to get IV in her arm and they couldn't get an IV in her arm. And they're like, what the heck is going on?

And it turns out she had this like gnarly blood clot and they pulled it out. It looks like these long strings, which I'm sure you're saying. seen online. I don't want to ruin your YouTube channel, but everybody who's been taking the medicine have been getting these like insane blood clots that look like worms, right? And then you see like the Justin Bieber and you start hearing all these stories. And well, I'm certainly sad about it like, hey, take responsibility for your health. Do the research. Take responsibility for your money. Take responsibility for your relationship for your time, right? And so that's why I put that tweet out. The age responsibility is going to snap back hard and the money is facing force us to

do that. The health is forcing to do that. And it's all for the better. Painful. And the transition. Yeah. Speaking of, you brought up the people that got burned on some of the Luna Celsius Voyager. I saw something the other day, somebody posted that, hey,

wonder where your, your three AC money went. And they basically traced it back to, it had been eventually invested into dick butt NFTs. Oh. So the money, if you wondered what happened, to it. And they basically

showed that, yeah, that one of the wallets managed by one of these people was literally owned a dick butt NFT. So. That's a top signal. That's a top signal for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Dee, you take it.

Responsibility go up. What thoughts? Yeah. No, absolutely. I find it a little tricky sometimes though because, you know, some people were kind of getting fired for not complying and stuff like that. And it wasn't exactly, you know, black and white, right? I mean, personally, like I said, I got laid off because of my decisions.

I really wanted to take responsibility for my, for my body and stand up for what I believe in. But it wasn't easy, right? Like, I mean, I needed, I needed money. I need cash flow. I need to pay my rent. I need to pay my bills. So it does, it's a little tricky sometimes, but I'm personally am glad that I did that. I agree people need to take responsibility.

And there is consequences for every action you take. I think Fetsey said it best earlier. It says, you know, we don't have adults anymore. We have a bunch of overgrown fucking children running around that have given up all their agency to institutions. And I fully agree. It's, again, tough because I think I'm walking around living with a bunch of lemmings, as you say. You know, like, do I have to, like, move to the forest? Do I need to get out of this country?

Like, I want to make change in where I live, but I find it a lot harder nowadays than, you know, what I thought back then, you know, it's, it's a little tricky. And I know Ben and I, we're, you're talking about Jagmeet Singh calling on the feds to give Canadians like $1,000 for groceries ASAP and, and you're like, well, why don't we just let it happen? And then we know that Bitcoin's going to come sooner because they'll just be more liquidity in the system, right? It's just, you know, Bitcoin's a black hole. So it's definitely something that I think about a lot and it's I struggle with because it's you know going back right people are losing jobs because of what they chose to do and it's just a little it's a little tricky sometimes because people got to

pay the bills right so I feel for those people and I've talked to a lot of people that have you know a few shots or whatever and said hey you know I kind of stopped I've done a lot of research now and things are coming out you know and whoa like holy cow what's going on here I'm going to maybe ease off on these boosters every six months or whatnot. So thankfully there's that at least. People are learning. And back to Spessie's point about people putting diapers on their face and going to a business, if they didn't have those rules in place, then they would get closed.

Their shop would be shut down because they weren't complying with their government. And I think that was absolutely insane. Thankfully, that kind of got maybe not brushed off, but people got angry. And I think that dial, like Mark was saying, kind of we saw a lot of pushback with that. Thankfully, but for a while there, we were down a deep dark path and it was on a global scale. And it seemed like there was nowhere to run. So I'm thankful that we're at least past that. And we have some more people that have had their eyes open and woken up, you know.

I want to just quickly say one more thing is how Bitcoin seems to really. stand apart from shit coins. There was that guy who calls himself the wolf of all streets. I don't know what the fuck his name is, but there was a tweet from him the other day saying, oh, Do Kwan really fucked us.

And I couldn't help, but just reply. I was like, bro, you fucked yourself. Do Kwan just gave you a bigger dildo and you just enjoyed using it. And now you're unhappy about it, you know what I mean? Like, because, like, straight away, the shit coin is like someone else. Like, man, we've been telling you that Luna

a Ponzi from the beginning. He didn't, like, you fucked yourself over. It's just that you just wanted easy money or quick money or free money. And, I mean, you know, they're all, they're all the same. Like, you know, proof of stake is another example of, you know, just another machination of the, the, you know, the absolvement of responsibility. It's all the same shit. And it's just, I don't know, like,

I can't help but think that civilization splits into two. And I said this before on the spaces. I think D was in there is we're going to have homo bitquinicus and homo lemmingsus or homo hystericus. I don't know, whatever the fuck we're going to call these weirdos. But like, you know, we're going to split into like responsible adults and basically Wally. Sheep. That's it. Sheeple.

Lemings. I don't know what else to call them. I want to, I want a movie about that. I want a movie about like a Wally style person, like having that orange pill moment. And then like the work that they have to put in to change their frame of mind, to change their health and their physique and everything coming out of that and relearning how to how to win. I think that'd be, yeah, I think that'd be an incredible, you know, short story. I think that'd be a fun one.

If anyone's interested, hit me up. Like, you know, I'm writing full time now. Actually, one thing I do want to start writing is I want to get into fiction. So who knows, maybe I'll put a script together. Someone will help me turn into it. There needs to be more Bitcoin related fiction. I would fucking love it. I think it's an under explored, an under explored way of conveying stories.

And I think some of those visions of like a future split of society or how Bitcoin pans out for people who gravitate towards it versus don't. I think there's so many interesting schools of thought there of what may come to fruition. It would just be compelling to watch and read stuff like that.

So yeah, I challenge out there to anybody who's diving down that rabbit hole. So let's do one final rotation here. That wasn't awesome. I'm glad that we went down that rabbit hole. That one was a fun one. So, Thanks, Alex, for that.

Let's dive over to Mark. Mark, you are up. Let us know why are you bullish? What are you excited about? Well, I think bullish this week, right? Whatever time frame, I'm not going to discriminate. Well, I think it fits into why I'm bullish overall, but also why I'm bullish this week. So I have my high-powered lights on my face with my professional equipment.

I'm actually just on an old laptop in a hotel room here in Las Vegas where I'm speaking at an event called Freedom Fest, which I hadn't really heard of before. They asked me to come out here. There's a few thousand people that have shown up for this, and they're here for freedom, just Freedom Fest. So Rand Paul's here speaking is cool. There's a lot of medical guy, you know, the James O'Keefe from Project Veritas. You got Dr. Malone and, you know, Del Bigtree, some, you know, medical freedom people. just freedom people. So I'm super encouraged by that.

And it kind of goes along with, you know, where I think, where I'm encouraged by with what Bitcoin did, you know, a decade ago before Ron Paul, nobody even really knew about the Fed or the Federal Reserve or really thought about the Federal Reserve. And probably three, four years ago, nobody really used the word fiat. And so, like, everybody's, like, waking up really fast. And we've got thousands of people here in Vegas for Freedom Fest. And, you know, there's gold people. and there's like I said, medical people, you name it, but for freedom. I think that we're seeing a revival of people that want liberty and freedom. There's three different college groups here that focus just on liberty and freedom,

and there are three different ones that all work on college campuses. There's the Atlas group, which is like an Ayn Rand kind of group here. I mean, you name it. It's amazing. And so we're seeing this revival of freedom. at the same time, the leaders, whatever you want to call them, of the world, the politicians, the leaders are doing almost our own marketing for us, right? They're squeezing everybody.

They're taking everybody's freedom away. They're showing us why we need Bitcoin more than we've ever seen, obviously, you know, in your country sessions with the truckers. But then really it went on to the main stage with Russia, getting their bank account seized. And I just don't see any way the world. move forward from the point we're at today. I gave a talk at my conference in May called de-evolution. So the world's de-evolving. Global trade is falling apart. Globalization's falling apart because we can't trust each other. And it was called de-evolution, re-evolution.

How we'll re-evolve back with a trustless, you know, trustless ledger. And so I just don't see any way forward without Bitcoin. And so that's why I'm bullish overall. But specifically this week, like I said, here at this conference, a freedom fest, seeing this revival of freedom. It doesn't take a majority to prevail, right? It just takes a small minority. And so the minorities here, it's waking up. They see the tools that they have. And I think it's going to come fast.

I agree. And so we've got M.G in the chat. And he's saying, you know, so many freedom movements completely miss Bitcoin. They see the problems, but they miss the solution. And I think that's why it's important for for Bitcoiners to branch out. and go places that aren't just Bitcoin conferences, right? To go to these places where. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. I had to sit down. I had to go on a panel with Joe Jorgensen, who's the ran for president of a libertarian party. And, you know, she brought on a Monaro guy. And then I had to go on the Monaro show today and debate him and a gold guy. And it's like, but I'm here talking to the libertarians.

And like, but it's what we got to do, right? I can be in the echo chamber all day. And I love the echo chamber. don't get me wrong. And it wears me out to have to sit here and defend it and have the same conversations over and over. But it is what it is, you know. Yeah, it's, it's, I think us as as Bitcoiners, everybody as Bitcoiners, unfortunately need to inject themselves in in conversations where it's just going to be,

there's going to be people with, with quote unquote solutions to these problems that, maybe miss the mark and and it's kind of our job to help inform them and there's going to be bad you're going to encounter bad takes you're going to encounter um people again as as as as mj was saying that that have missed the mark or or missed the solution um but even in those conversations if somebody's proposing a solution that you don't think is is the right one there will be people that watch the conversation between you and that individual that see your point of view and say, maybe that is the solution. Maybe that's the person that later on goes and informs and does talks later on and gets,

quote unquote, converted from their old way of thinking and goes on to orange pill countless others. So I think there's value in injecting yourself into those situations with those people to not necessarily turn the person. I mean, I can't remember where the quote is from, but the point of a debate is not to convince your opponent is to convince the people that are listening to the debate. The other thing I would add on to that too is that, you know, I became a gold bug. I learned that, hey, the Fiat money system is a problem. We can't just print money unlimited. We need a sound money.

We need gold, right? It was the only option. This is about 2008. But then it was an easy transition for me into Bitcoin. And so I see a lot of people. I mean, there's like this old guy I met and he's just got this little tiny booth and he wrote this book like economics in one lesson or whatever, not Hazlitz's book, but something similar to that.

And he's like this old guy, made a bunch of money in real estate and he just wants to go chain. He wants to educate people on the problem with the debt and the fiscal problem of the United States. And I had a long talk with him. And I think he's a little bit misguided, obviously, right? But he's waking people up to the problem. and then it's easier for them to find the solution, right? And so there's the gold guy.

I sat down with the gold guy today. And like the gold guys are also bringing attention to this. And so I think they're all helping people just get closer, closer, closer. And then when they finally find the solution, it's an easy take for them. So I was telling these guys, I'm like, look, I don't want to sit here and debate you guys. Like we're all fighting against tyranny. We're all fighting against the Fed. We're all fighting against this.

Let's continue to push that narrative. And then they'll find that Bitcoin's the best solution at some point. Yeah, it's trial and error. And if, you know, us as Bitcoin is believed that Bitcoin is the solution, all it takes is for people to see it work. And so when you have people that are trying to work for a solution and if their proposed solution is not panning out and they see it panning out for us in various forms, then, you know, it doesn't take much for people to change their tune when they see that. So yeah, I love that. I'll let the other guys chime in too. Dee, did you want to tag in anything to?

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, you know, we don't have to, you know, I don't think we have to defend. But I think it's important to educate people. And I agree with you, you know, it's not about arguing with them. It's just about discussion. So I'll hop into a lot of Twitter space rooms that are, you know,

alt-coin, shill your NFT, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever shit coin and then you know i've got to sell like i yeah i don't know if i could take it i know i know it's you know you got to have a lot of patience obviously and i'm i'm happy to sit and just ask you know not even not not not even like oh i said shit coin it's like you know what do you think about money what do you think about the government printing all this debt and you know you know what about cpi like you know kind of ask some basic questions first and then kind of try and get into the nitty gritty a little bit and maybe just give them a little point here, a little point there for something to think about. But ultimately, it's up to them whether they come or not, right? I'm not going to

force anyone to buy Bitcoin or to come into the, what I'd say, to come to the light. But, you know, I always love to jump in there and really question their thinking and see if they, you know, if they have a strong belief, right? You know, instead of just saying, oh, I'm buying this coin because it's going to go up and I'm going to make a lot of money. You know, I try and really dig down into like why they're investing it and stuff like that and try just just try and question them and yeah exactly right just um just have a discussion instead of arguing because obviously um we have a really bad rep online with toxic bitcoin max maximalism maximalism as they say um and i think it's i think a lot of people are putting people yeah yeah i think a lot of people are putting people in boxes and hey you know i think

some people that's the way that um they go about um teaching or you know discussing but i take a more maybe chill approach and try not to step on people's toes and just try and weasel through those little cracks in their arguments and see if they can, you know, open up their thinking a little bit, even if it's just a little bit more. And that's what I, that's my goal. Education again. Spetsky. Thoughts. Yeah, I like to teach with a stick. Yeah, there you go. I'm the carrot man. I'm like, come here. Come on. I like to teach with the baseball bat, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, I can't even remember what Mark's original point was,

but I think it's something to do with like, was it basically they're going to fuck up themselves, so we kind of already got the high guy. I was just bullish on the amount of people waking up to the Liberty Movement, wanting freedom, and then the leader's kind of doing our marketing for us. Totally, yeah. So yeah, there's a classic Sun Tzu saying, which is, you know, don't interrupt your enemy. while they're kind of, and I'm butchering this, but it's something along the lines of don't interrupt your enemy

when they're doing their job for you, right? So they're like, if they're out there defeating themselves, don't stalk them. It's encourage them. Like, let them do the thing. So in many ways, you know, this is sort of where I've been a big proponent of like thinking about selective adoption instead of mass adoption.

I fucking hate that word mass adoption. It drives me crazy. Oh, we did most adoption. Shut the fuck up. No, no, no. We need selective adoption and we need to think about the people who are, you know, more predisposed towards understanding Bitcoin. And we need to maintain just the same signal. They'll tune in. Like, think about the people's minds as working like, you know, your old FM radios. Dee, I don't know if you're alive back then, but we used to have these radios in the cars where you turn the knob. Yeah, yeah. I was just around for that. Yeah, okay.

I cut the end of it. But yeah, like that's sort of, you know, people's radar is like that. They're looking for signal. And if we maintain strong signal, they'll pick it up and they'll hear us. If we dilute our signal, what happens is that they're not going to hear us. We'll just get lost in the rest of the noise. And then it's just about being the loudest fucking chill, right? And I really learned this from reading Isaiah's job, which is an essay written in the 1930s,

apparently inspired everyone from Rand to Rothbard and all this sort of stuff. And it was basically Francis Pullio got me onto it. And this is where I got the the theming of the remnant from. And in there, he basically makes the case for like, you know, the remnant are the, you know, the small percentage of people who actually change the world. And the way to communicate with them is to never dilute your message, to maintain signal. And out of 100 people that walk by and hear your message,

99% won't care or won't listen or would ignore you. But the one that does is the one that matters. Because that's the one who's then going to become another node as a signal. And in many ways, we always talk about in Bitcoin, you know, running your own node. Like we are a education node or a signal node for the information and what Bitcoin represents. So so long as we maintain real signal with that, I think we will keep attracting the right people. So one of the other things in Isaiah's job is said, you can never know anything about the remnant except for two things. You know, one, that they are out there and number two, that they will find you.

And he makes a point of don't go out looking for them and trying to like sell yourself and, you know, position yourself for them because they will instinctively know that it's not, it's not genuine. Like you've got an angle. Just say what you have to say. Be true. Maintain signal. And this is what I think, you know, real good Bitcoiners are good at doing.

Like we might not have, you know, a million fucking followers. Like, you know, Plan B was a perfect example of someone. who was a fake fucking bitcoiner, positioned himself, sold a fucking story, and, you know, got 1.2 million followers and now is shilling some fucking second rate app or whatever he is trying to monetize his audience, right? So, you know, then you've got other people like us on here, you know, like, I mean, some of us have decent size audiences, but we're still like, you know, in comparison to the shit coin ones. Like, I mean, BitBoy, who the fuck is that fat fuck? He's got a million followers. A million followers. Yeah.

You know, whereas Mark, he's, like, pumping out eight hours of, like, solid content every week in his, you know, 80,000, like, you know, an order of magnitude less. Likewise, YouTube sessions, like, you've been fucking pumping this stuff. So, but we've got 80,000 loyal followers, not 800,000 or a million fucking lemmings that are just here one moment to make a quick buck and go on the next. And I think that that piece for me is really important. So we win because we have the high ground. We need a maintain signal. and as the enemy continues to

fucking destroy everything they touch because they do you know like you don't have to stop a statist from fucking destroying the state because that's just in their job description they will push people our way and now we've got the high ground

some people are smart enough to go and climb up the high ground and come join us the others are dumb enough to drown when the flood comes and leave them don't go and try and save the people who want to drown because they're going to drown you as well. So that's kind of one piece that I wanted to mention. And then to the second piece,

I think you mentioned this, Ben, was about speaking to other audiences that are peripheral. And I really think that's what we've done with this book. And I think that's going to be the most important impact of this book, is that this wasn't a Bitcoin book, but to be honest, it's a fucking Bitcoin book. So we, it's the uncommust manifest. and I think it's a concise, you know, one-hour read, which has some really poignant points that people can digest, that they can understand really quickly.

And the people that are very close, that are on the periphery of understanding Bitcoin, so libertarians, people that are more conservatively minded, more responsible, more sovereign-minded, more, you know, don't tread on me, et cetera. Like all of those archetypes that are already primed for Bitcoin, they're going to be likely to read a book like this. Now, the entire argument of the book is predicated on the existence of something like Bitcoin. And I think we did, not to blow smoke up our ass, but I think we did a fantastic job of saying Bitcoin without saying Bitcoin. And there's like a little section in there about Bitcoin. I think it's like a page and a half. And that's all we needed to say.

But the rest of the book does the job. And I think that kind of stuff is going to be powerful. So maybe this next chapter of Bitcoin education is kind of like, you know, that, level of signals. So I hope, you know, we'll manage to do that with the book. And, you know, while I'm chilling this, like anyone listening, like, the book goes live on Amazon on the first of, on the first of August. So, like, come and support us, you know, get a copy, leave a fucking review. The more reviews we can get, the more that we can, the more chance we have hitting the bestseller list so that more people can actually see this. That'll be a big

thing for us, because if we can really, like, spread this book, like, apparently the original communist manifesto is the most widely read political and economics book in history, apparently. I mean, I don't know if that's true, but it's one of the most widely read. And that is enough to tell you how stupid civilization is, right? Like, people are parading about reading a book that gives you an academic justification for being a lazy shit, literally what the Communist Manifesto is. So I hope that our one can pick up on a zeitgeist of the time and really speak to audiences that may or may not be on the periphery of Bitcoin and kind of draw them in

because then the government will do the rest of the work for us. We'll kind of like plant the seeds and then the government will kind of push them up to us. I love that, man. Yeah, it's, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think a lot of people would get a lot out of it. And it's a nice concise read. I like that you started by setting out the definitions. because I remember I was on your wake-up podcast

and that's how we started. We started by setting out specific definitions for terms so that we're all on the same page. So I love that about you whenever you're chatting about something like, okay, let's make sure that we're talking about the same thing. And it was a really nice way to start before diving into the concepts that you guys covered. So that was awesome. But yeah, I don't know.

I think people should check it out for sure. Gentlemen, I'm going to, if anybody wants to tag anything on to what Svetsky said before we start doing final thoughts, I'll leave it open here. Or we can do final thoughts all around. I guess just a quick point. I mean, I know Svetsky rules with a stick or a bat, and I'm more of the carrot man. And I guess people, like, you know, right now we're seeing a lot of downturn in the markets. We're talking about people will kind of come to us. I mean, I think a lot of people from Celsius have definitely started to learn their lessons, hopefully.

We'll see about that, Voyager, all that. So that's, you know, I'm seeing a lot of new bitcoinsers being brought from the ashes in the Twitter space. I know, you know, it's just the echo chamber a little bit there. But I do see a lot more Bitcoiners kind of starting up and say, hey, you know what? Maybe I was an idiot. And maybe these shit coins are really shit. So I should probably look at this Bitcoin thing a little more. I guess for my last point here was, you know, I want as many people on the lifeboat as possible.

I really hope that we don't hit that S curve straight up moment too fast because, you know, people like me, plebs, they got to get on board still. And I hope we have a few more years of education and teaching left before shit really hits the fan. So, you know, I really, you know, everyone's like, oh, you know, I wanted to go up. I wanted to go up. I'm like, yeah, it's great. But, you know, you could also accumulate and put your head to the book and grind and grind and grind and get to where you want to be. So you're financially free in the future. Yeah.

My main concern is friends and family, right? I want friends and family to have a decent understanding and insulate themselves. And, you know, I do my best there. But, you know, that's kind of my main concern before you see that, that kind of drive of necessity where people have to come to Bitcoin. I'd like, I'd like people that are near and dear to me to be prepared for that rather than not. Yeah. You can always save for them a little bit and put in a wallet. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. Begrudgingly have some stats set aside for that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Welcome. You're welcome. I told you so. Yeah.

Yeah. So, no, it's absolutely. And yeah, I don't know. We'll see how it plays out in the coming years. But I think we're in a decent position. And I, as much as I do have a low time preference, sometimes you look at it, look at the world. Like, how is it taking this long? for people to wake up or will they ever.

So there's an element of that too. But I do think we're on a good footing where we are right now. So gentlemen, with that, I'm going to, sorry, Mark, go ahead. I was going to say, you know, I got asked, as we all have, I think you talked about earlier, you know, about the price down, right? Like, oh, Bitcoin was that $65,000? Now it's at $20,000? What the heck, you know?

I gave a talk in Miami two weeks ago, and I titled the talk, how's Bitcoin doing? Because like, you know, I get troll all the time. Oh, how's that Bitcoin doing for you? I was like, fine. I'll just make a talk called, how's Bitcoin doing? And here, what I was talking, I was on this one panel and the price of money was called. And they're like, oh, well, Bitcoin dropped.

But I was talking to some people, I said, look, let's just say hypothetically, the price of Bitcoin never went up. It's a $20,000 for forever. The network still works. No one manipulates my money. No one can seize my money. And if I want to send it to one of you, no one could stop it, block it or prevent it. And so I think, you know, back to kind of Svetsky's point, dropping the NGU and going back to something different, right?

Like we're not, I don't think any of us four here, we're in this to get rich quick, right? And so I think, I think it's working. The network works. The wallets are growing. The hash power is growing. It's spreading. It's spreading faster than most of us realized because we wish it was spreading faster than it is. But it's growing tremendously fast. If you look at the wallet increases in the hash power,

if you look at, we added one nation and now we've got like four more nations. I mean, look at that, right? We got Panama. We got Central African Republic. I mean, it's like, it's happening. And so it's not as fast as a lot of people would want, but it's happening fast. It's happening faster than we've seen other technologies. And so if you look at the technology, look at an S curve to measure it. And based off of the S curve technology, which is a, you know, diffusion of innovation, by the end of the decade, we should be at about 90% adoption. That's dang fast. Staying fast.

And I think we should focus on that. That's really. Yeah. Awesome. Well, gentlemen, what I'd like to do now before we wrap up is I just want to get a quick round of one, if you have any final thoughts, but two, I'm going to give you a secondary challenge of recommending a piece of content that has been helpful to you in your Bitcoin journey, whether that be a podcast, a video, a book, a, you know, whatever it may be.

It doesn't matter. I'm going to, you can't self-shill. Well, I guess you can self-shill, but I'm going to be shilling this one. So I read this. I got a copy down in Miami this year, read it after the conference, and then did a reread before coming on the show here today. It's a nice, concise short read that can give you

a laundry list of points whenever you're talking to your calming friends about maybe how, why they should change their ways. I think it's definitely worth a read, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. the Un-Communist Manifesto. And you guys said it's dropping on, it's dropping on Amazon on the first. Yeah. Awesome.

Does my copy get shipped at the same point there? You'll have yours before then, my friend. Nice. Awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, if you want some light summer reading, Cozdy up by the Bonfire with a copy of the Un-Communist Manifesto, I would recommend that.

And in terms of final thoughts, yeah i i love how kind of everything tied together today it seemed like the the the topics kind of weaved uh nicely together and i guess in general i'm i'm more bullish than ever on the trajectory that bitcoin is on uh and all the coolest shit gets done in the bear markets so let's let's keep it rolling um so i'll toss it to d next any final thoughts if you have them and then a recommendation of of something that's been helpful to you in your yeah Yeah, absolutely. So over the past kind of few years, I've realized that, yeah, I know buying Bitcoin and supporting the network is great. Running your nose is awesome. But if you really want to be kind of out in the woods on your own, not relying on these big daddy governments, you got to be a little more self-sovereign than that. So I've really picked up being a green thumb. I'm, you know, growing peppers, cucumbers, tomatoes, have my own nice little garden that I tend to. And my parents run a nice little farm. So, you know, kind of raising some kind of. stuff like that that's more for them but yeah green thumb you know just trying to be self-reliant

and realize that yeah big daddy government gives you a lot so um doing that yourself and kind of going back to those those roots really inspired me a lot as well as you know bitcoin so obviously the sovereign individual is a great book highly recommend i'm about halfway through it now so still still learning but yeah there's a lot more more to it uh as you dig down that little rabbit hole. So thanks for having me on. And, you know, it's always a pleasure. You know, it's the first time being on a video call rather than a Twitter space.

It's a little bit different. But I like it. And I love the discussion. And I think we really tied stuff together pretty well, all four of us. So it was a great time. Awesome. Thanks for being here, man. And it sounds from your description that your responsibility has gone up,

growing some of your own food going on. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm learning. I'm very new to the green. some growing fruit stuff, but fruits and veggies, but I'm learning.

It might take a few years. Yeah, yeah. All good. Svetsky, how about you? Any final thoughts that you might want to toss out there and recommendations of content? Yeah. First of all, thank you for having us on

and helping show the book. I think this turned out to be like I was completely unprepared. So I think this, as you said, the conversation really fed into itself really nicely. So that was really good. Recommendation. I mean, I can't help but recommend Atlas Shrugged to everyone as I do a lot.

And I recommend it always in audible format because I think fiction is best consumed by listening to it. You just close your eyes. Like, you'll never want to watch, you'll never want to turn your TV on again. Because, I mean, 95 to 2005 was a golden era in film and basically tape it off very quickly outside of that. and film today is like if you really want to stab yourself in the fucking eyeball and go watch a Disney film or something like that because everything is so bad man I can't handle modern film and I've always been a film buff so it's unfortunate how bad everything is so anyway you want something good like that's fictional but that is actually happening in real

life like if you want to see someone who basically nailed everything 70 years ago Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrug is quite possibly the most like if I had to if we were given one book to keep and had to burn every single book on the planet I would keep Atlas Shrugged it's a tough call but it's the only book I would keep I think it's the most important piece of text ever written a lot of people are going to get triggered by me saying that but I'm sorry fuck you it is extremely important so So that, I would also like as a random second, for those that are interested in anthropology, I would check out a book called The Territorial Imperative by a guy called Robert Adry. And that's an old school 1960s book.

And I kind of, it's not like the, you know, soy lent bug-eating anthropology of modern times written by the Yubal Hararees of the world, you know, who, like, you know, he wrote Sapiens and everyone, like, fell in love with him and, you know, the guys are moron. Robert Adri is, yeah, that's the one. It's a very interesting book, and it'll, it'll basically teach you a lesson about how private property rights, basically the human manifestation of a territorial, a biological territorial imperative, like social, social animals have that. It's kind of in our DNA almost.

you'll start to appreciate why private property is basically the cornerstone of civilization. And it's got nothing to do with libertarianism, Austrian economics or anything, but it'll give you like a biological rooting in that understanding. Now, this is a, it's a tougher book to read, but for anyone who wants to sink their teeth into something more, you know, out of the usual realm of books that, you know, everyone's recommending, that's an interesting one that I recommend. So that's my piece.

Love it. Mark, how about you? Final thoughts? Recommendations on content. Yeah. So recommendation on content first. I think all good options. As I was saying earlier, a lot of people don't have a fundamental understanding of money. And so then it's hard to really understand why this fee up system has caused so many problems and how Bitcoin can fix that. So I've appointed several people over this weekend here back to the Bitcoin standard, which takes you all the way through the history of money through the gold standard and into Bitcoin. So it's a great, great one. Atlas Shrug, of course,

two people here from Ironman Institute here. Our own book, of course, on Communist.com. Check that out. But the one piece of content I would chill right now is because I kind of pulled it back up and it went into this talk I put together two weeks ago on how's Bitcoin doing. And it's Bitcoin is Time, Gigi. And it's one of his older articles. I don't remember how old it is, but Bitcoin is time.

And I thought it was great. And time is money. We've all heard that. He talks about how money is also time and how time is order. And how Bitcoin, the Bitcoin white paper didn't use the word blockchain. It used the word time chain. And then when you think about that and then you look at, I was asked today on this Monaro show, you know, what's Bitcoin for?

What's an error as it shifted? Is it still digital cash, as Satoshi Nakamoto said? I said, well, what was the kill crap of electricity? design electricity was for a digital light bulb, right? But we use electricity for different things today. And I said, what it does, it gives us a building block. We can build new things off of. So if we have this time chain that keeps the perfect time, what can we build off of that?

And a perfect example is what Dorsey is doing with his new company and the DIDs. And they're using the Bitcoin time chain to hash the decentralized IDs into that. And so we wouldn't be able to build that without this new building block that we have. And so anyway, that piece, uh, big, Bitcoin is time. Help me see that. And I use some of it to go back into this talk that I did. So anyway, that's the current piece of info that I would chill. Final thoughts, I would just say, again, being at Freedom Fest, so that's kind of what's on my mind right now. Obviously, the world is devolving very, very fast. I can't, I mean, seeing Sri Lanka fall apart with a perfect ESG score, by the way, 98 of 100. Germany now is dimming the lights

and they have to turn the hot water off in schools. I mean, it's just insane this world that we're going into. At the same time, they're ramping up social credit score systems and surveillance tools around the world. And so we're coming to, we're coming to a head here. Something's going to happen in the next couple of years. And I believe we win. We have a tool to win.

We have Bitcoin, giving me massive hope. But the future's not guaranteed. And we've got to do the work. And so my final thoughts are just, we all have to just, do the work. We got to spread the word. We got to stand up. We got to not comply. And we'll get through it. I love it. Excellent way to a excellent way to wrap here. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed this conversation. Glad that we could all get together. And everybody watching, all their Twitter

handles are in the description down below. Give them all a follow. And you'll be able to find everything and anything that we talked about today. and everything that they're working on. So, yeah, gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. And you're welcome back anytime, of course. Thanks, thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

All right. Thanks, everyone. And everybody watching, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate everybody that came out and all of the comments and everything. You're all awesome. Again, as I said, all these guys, all of their Twitter handles are in the links down below. Give them all a follow. check out what they're doing, check out that book, check out Coin Kite, all that stuff. Awesome.

As always, please do like, subscribe, share, all those things. They really do help. They help get this in front of more eyeballs. So if you're, if you've been digging the show, then yeah, you can, you can check that out. If you want to help the show in another way, you can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors down below, Shake Pay, Lead, Bit, Bit, Refill, Keystone, Bill Fottle. They're all down there. And finally, if you really liked what you saw, you can always hit me up with a Bitcoin tip at my strike page. That's strike. Dot me slash VTC sessions.

Get there. You type in any amount you like. You hit the tip button. You'll be greeted with a lightning invoice. Or if you tap the arrow to the right, you'll see a regular Bitcoin QR code. With that, I'm out. Those of you that are in Vancouver and you're going to be hitting up the workshops tomorrow, I will see you there. So very looking forward to that.

If you're in Vancouver as well, I think afterwards. we may be going out for a beer or something. So if you're out on the town, check out Twitter. We'll figure something out. But anyways, thank you guys so much. Have a great weekend.

And yeah, I'll see you guys next time for your daily session. Toddled by Bitcoin.