BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Michael Schmidt, Jeff Ross, Joseph Brown, Greg Foss ep224

Episode Date: December 18, 2021

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Wasabi wallet and fairly private. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another Why Are We Bullish. I'm glad you're joining me. We've got a killer panel today. I'm going to bring these guys in momentarily to chat, but a couple of familiar faces,

a couple newcomers to the show that are, although not unfamiliar with Bitcoin. So we're going to have a good chat on this fine Friday. I hope everybody's feeling good. And as always, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my good friend Bill here. We'll do it live.

Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live. I'll write it and we'll do it live. Fucking thing sucks. Of course, if you haven't already, like, subscribe, share. All those things are important. They help out the show a ton.

Get yourself a beverage. I am Ben with the VTC sessions. This is your daily session. Oh, it took a sip and it just hit weird in the back of my throw there. All right. Let's get rolling. Before we bring in our panel, of course, let's take a look at where we are on the market right now. Bitbo.

Dotio dashboard, $46,390 per coin. Single U.S. dollar will pick you up 2,156 sets. Earlier within the past week, we've ticked over 90% of all Bitcoin has been mined now by 2030. that surpasses 99% and basically we're 120 years out from that final percentage point being mined.

And in terms of fees up a little bit today, 12 sats per byte gets you into the next block willing to wait an hour, five sats per bite. Actually, I haven't seen it like that in a little while. So interesting. Shout out to sponsors of the show, Shaypey.com.

If you're in Canada and you're buying Bitcoin, this is such an easy way to do it. Free deposits, free. withdrawals spread is super thin. And if you click the link below, after your first hundred bucks, I'll give you $30 for free. Also, you get the same deal when you refer friends. And after you do refer a friend,

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They, of course, also has savings accounts for Bitcoin and USDC. And if you're feeling mega bullish, B2X offering is there for you. I do live on Bitcoin. Bit refill helps a ton. Got to check them out. They've just got so many gift cards in a ton of different countries. Again, you earn SaaS back as you shop. But because I'm living on Bitcoin, obviously the interesting part to me, beyond this aspect, which are beautiful, is that I can pay via Bitcoin Mainchain and Lightning Network, if I so please.

And they got a killer referral program too. Check them out. Links are in the show notes. Last couple. Of course, Keystone, you guys know one of my favorite and most used hardware wallets. It's 100% air gap. You never plug it into anything internet connected, all offline via QR code. It works. It has Bitcoin-only firmware. You can upgrade to, which I recommend. and then it works with all my favorite Bitcoin wallets. Blue wallet, Wasavi, Specter, Sparrow, it's awesome and a multi-sig. Check it out. And finally, if you're backing up any important Bitcoin wallet, paper doesn't cut it, you guys,

especially if you've got a meaningful amount of funds on there. Get something in solid steel. Bill Fottle over at Privacy Pros will have you covered. So check it out over there. And with that, let's stop my renting and let's start bringing in my guests here. Give me a second as I figure out what I'm doing here. All right, we've got Mr. Joseph Brown. We've got Michael Schmidt.

We've got Greg Foss. We've got Jeff Ross. We've got a Foss and a Ross in the room. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. I'm very happy to have you all here. Let's do a roll call down the line and just, again, let people, if they're unfamiliar with you, know who you are and what you do. So, Joe, I'll start with you. Take it away.

Little intro. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. My name is Joe Brown. As you can see, I've got Heresy Financial on there as well. I have a YouTube channel. The main place you'll find me called Heresy Financial. And if you're not familiar with the term, heresy, it means an opinion that is profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.

And so that's kind of the aim, the theme of the economics and money and investing talk on my channel. You can find me on Twitter as well. Awesome. Well, dude, I'm glad to have you for the first time and excited to chat. Michael, you are up next. I came across you on Twitter and invited you on. And you're basically the reason for this panel because you outlined your dream team and it somehow came together. So let people know who you are and what you do, man.

Yeah, hi. I'm Michael Schmidt and I have the Twitter account Fair Free Digital. I'm a technologist. So I build large-scale distributed infrastructure systems both on and off the cloud. I'm active in the open source community and I've been spending more of my free development time on layer two and layer three of Bitcoin. I didn't pay too much attention to macroeconomics until 2019 when the repo market flew up. I started kind of going down the monetary system rabbit hole. And I've kind of gone from how does technology work to how do money and markets work

to how do I now use technology to help push forward a better path for money and market So I have like a block-based market cycle theory for Bitcoin. And yeah, I'm really excited for this panel. Awesome. Well, dude, I'm glad to have you here. And I'm sure we'll dive into a little bit of that in a bit here. Next down the panel, Jeff, welcome back. How you doing, man?

Let people know who you are, what you do. Yeah, thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me back. It's great to be back with all you guys. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Real quick, I'm a retired physician, just retired about two months ago from something called diagnostic radiology and interventional radiology. I'm the founder and CEO of a company called Vailshire Capital Management,

which is a registered investment advisor. I founded it in 20, founded it in 2013, started managing money in 2014. Also run a hedge fund called Vailshire Partners. And that's about it. I'm a Bitcoin advocate and counselor to the PLEBS and I'm just psyched to be here. And psyched it has spent some time with you, Foss, man. I love it. So it's to give me me a fun conversation. Awesome. Well, dude, I'm glad to have you back again. And I guess without further do, Mr. Greg Foss, do you want to give yourself a little intro for those that are unacquainted? Sure. Hi, guys. Well, certainly thanks for having me. And great to meet you, Jeff and Michael. Joe, I've been on a panel with Joe before. So the funny thing is Jeff Ross, Greg Foss and Mark

Moss. Okay. So we are now officially the Oz Brothers cubed. Okay. I was the Moss, Os, Foss, whatever. Now we're the Ross, Moss, and Foss team. We'll get there. Yeah, hey guys, thanks for having me, Ben. This must be the third, probably third or even fourth time I've been on your show. I think so. I want to call out the guys at bitbo.io for such a great dashboard on your intro, a Canadian kid, Chris Gimmer.

I know he's been on your show. I met him. I met with him down in Naples, Florida about two weeks ago. I love what he's doing. And then anyway, what do I do? My history has basically been in trading and risk management. I spent 30 years on both the buy side and the sell side of Wall Street and Bay Street. I was a credit trader.

What it means when you're on the buy side, I worked at two separate hedge funds. And sell side, I was a market maker at TD Securities as a junk bond trader, both in Canada and New York. You know, I've traded risk for over 30 years and I have been studying Bitcoin for the last six years and continue to get blown away by its beauty and it's and also, you know, we'll go into why I'm bullish, but over to you, Ben. And really, thanks again for having me, guys. It's great to meet you. Awesome. Well, I'm glad to have you back, man. And I love the, the OSS gang.

I think we should arrange a panel with the OSS is and we'll just call it ossify. I think that would be a solid name. I would go for it because I was speaking with Mark down at his, he has a thing called market disruptors down in Florida, probably two or three weeks ago. And what a great presentation he put on, attracting people not just from the Bitcoin community, but all sorts of market disruptors.

I learned a ton. I was actually the first speaker at his presentation. And I just got the video of it last. night and I did okay I had to speak for 40 minutes by myself which is a bit of a challenge and anyway great experience met some great people awesome well I'm glad to hear it I guess we'll we'll just dive right into it anybody watching that's unfamiliar why are we bullish really simple idea basically each one of us has a reason why we're feeling bullish something that has made us excited this past week or maybe over a longer

group of time period, but we each have a topic that we'd like to get off our chest. So we go by the three R's. Basically, somebody's going to drop their reason for being bullish. We're then all together going to riff on that reason. And then we're going to rotate. So, so nice and simple. We just do that until each one of us gets our turn. So I typically start us off.

I'm going to, my reason's relatively simple this week. So I'm going to start with that. And then we'll get rolling to the other guys here. So the reason that I'm feeling bullish this week is it's kind of a new. I don't want to say it's new, but I've seen more traction with it lately. It's an idea that there's a guy on Twitter named Laser Hoddle. He's been championing a lot more lately. It is hashtag get on zero.

The idea of living on a Bitcoin standard. and basically kind of getting less and less exposure to fiat. And I've kind of been living this life for the past couple of years now. The majority of my income is in Bitcoin. I know kind of my cash flow situation. I know what my costs are. So, you know, as invoices come in at the beginning of the month, I just immediately convert to those two dollars and pay those bills and everything.

But then beyond that, I hope. Bitcoin as my money. And so what that does for me is it kind of triggers a bit more thought whenever I go to make a purchase or do something that is high time preference. And so it makes me think, you know, do I want to convert some sats to do this? And just that little bit of extra thought in and around those purchases is pretty, it is a stark difference from the way I used to think about money. You got dollars swishing around. Well, I'll buy this. You know, you got cash in your pocket. I'll buy that. I'll buy that. Whatever. When your money

actually holds value in the long term, you're, you think about it a lot more. You're much more likely to save. You're much less likely to buy trinkety bullshit that you're just going to throw out in a year. And so it, the psychology behind it, I was amazed how much more I think about what I think about what I do with my money in shifting to a Bitcoin standard. It's not that I have zero exposure to dollars. Obviously, I got to pay bills and everything. But that's kind of baked into the way that I handle my money. And as it comes in, I know what my bills are.

I know what my expenses are. And I get those out of the way. And then obviously being cash flow positive, I save as much as I can, much more than I used to in the past. So that's where I'm at. And there's some pushback to this idea. There's people that that are saying, well, what about the capital gains? Is a tax nightmare?

Yes, it is a tax nightmare. But I also look at it from the perspective of I'm saving much more than I used to. I probably would have spent it on trash. You know, I want to hold good money. And so I love the. idea of this push to quote unquote get on zero as much as possible. So I'm going to open it up to everybody. I know that not everybody here is living on a Bitcoin standard. But I'd love some general thoughts on this idea and maybe some of the psychology around being on a sound money standard

and having less exposure to theat dollars. So anybody who wants to jump in, feel free. I'll step back. man i'll jump in there go ahead yeah oh sorry sorry okay sorry joe i'll try to be quick but man ben i got to tell you right before this i was just walking my dog with my wife and we were talking about this very exact same thing talking about how this fiat currency leads to this high time preference crap filled society of crap goods that fall apart and what when you when you have money that's debasing before your eyes it's like a hot potato the goal is to get rid of it as soon as possible because it's just garbage. And so that's what has created this whole financial system basically, where what do we do about the fact that our fiat is debasing right before

our eyes? You got to invest in stocks and bonds and real estate and blah, blah, blah, blah, or you got to buy some junk or buy a TV. And so I was just, that's what we were talking about, about when you have Bitcoin and you have a money that is sound, it creates this low time preference. it will make all of us. First, first us individually, those of us who are on Bitcoin standards, and I'm real close to you bet. I'm almost completely on a Bitcoin standard right now. But then eventually all of society will start to really evaluate, do we really want to

trade this money, this hard money, this sound money that's going to be worth much more five years, 10 years, 20 years from now for this whatever, for this TV, for this hot tub, for this meal. And it's going to change the consumer. to be very fickle. We're going to be fickle about investments as well. So we're not going to be driving up stocks to, you know, 50 times sales like they are right now on these tech companies, all these just insane valuations on real estate and in bonds as well. And obviously Foss can talk way more about this than I can. It's just we live in a world of insanity and it's created by this Fiat standard we're all on. And as we transition to Bitcoin, it's going to literally flip all

of that on its head and it's going to be a completely different world. And I think within maybe 10, 20 years, we're going to start seeing this in major ways, maybe sooner. Joe, feel free to jump in now. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for newcomers to Bitcoin, when they hear you say something like that, in their mind, they're going to think, hey, it's just because you think it's going to go up to $100,000 or $200,000 or whatever it is. And they're in their mind, they're thinking, like, at some point, that comes to an end.

And so people then just start spending their Bitcoin once that comes to an end. But the reality is that you have. have in a monetary system where the supply doesn't expand, at some point, once that initial price appreciation is done, once the technology is adopted, once it's money for everybody, you still have deflation take place. And so if we look at the time period from 1860 to 1900, roughly, during that time period, there was a decrease in nominal wages throughout that entire time, but an increase in real wages. And so, So when the money supply can't expand, what ends up happening is you end up realizing the real growth that happens of wealth.

We have new efficiencies, new technologies, revolutions, and how production is done to make everything. You get more for less, right? And so that means your money goes further every day. So just because we're in an early phase of Bitcoin in terms of it becoming adopted as money for everybody doesn't mean that that time preference will suddenly flip back over to what we have today once it's money. You still will have that dynamic where your money gets more valuable over time. Not as much as it will if you buy in right now, but that dynamic will still be in play because the supply is capped. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to tag on to what Jeff was saying in terms of, you know, people will be able to scrutinize

what they purchase both in day-to-day goods, but also in their investments. And I mean, what that does is it forces the producers of those goods or potential investments to up their game. It makes the products that we consume that much better because they're competing in a world where people are, they scrutinize their purchases much more. And so you've got to actually bring something to the table that's worth parting with your stats for in order to move it off the shelves. But anyways, I'll let Michael or Greg jump in if you have any comments. Yeah, so I mean, I'm pretty much on a Bitcoin standard. I have a I have a mortgage.

So I have my fixed debt. I have an income from my profession and then I have Bitcoin. And it's pretty incredible how it makes you really consider what you're going to buy. And it makes you think about the way that you spend your time as well, right? Do you want to spend your time watching, you know, TV or playing a video? game or do you want to watch your time, spend your time, you know, trying to push forward the things that you really believe in more, right? Like, hey, how do we avoid kind of a collectivism where power centralizes at the top kind of mindset across our society? I mean, that's that's kind of

what this low time preference thinking has kind of caused, and Bitcoin really helps a lot with that and yeah i don't really have a lot more to say about that awesome awesome great anything you want to add in before we move on yeah sure great great conversation guys and uh you know uh what i will add though is it will be disruptive um because the consumer represents 70 percent of the economy right and if uh the consumer all of a sudden stops making uh low or high time preference purchases there'll be some there'll be some repercussions there. I am not on the Bitcoin standard. Why? Look, I'm 58 years old. I'm barely on an iPhone. You got to understand that my life is a little different from you, young bucks. And that's good. But what I do say about all this is, you know, I can see it coming.

because you get an old guy like me, it takes time to permeate in my lifestyle. My kids are very, you know, really, really solid savers. It's really cool to see. I just came back from Whistler and brought my daughter back. She was living out there for three months and came back with her. And I just said, Sammy, you know, how much did you put away? and it blew me away. And I'm like, God, I never had that much money until I was like 40 years old.

You know, I'm exaggerating, obviously. But it's cool. It gives you a different perspective. But again, we need to be careful, guys, because if the world all of a sudden turns 70% of the economy, all of a sudden going down to 50% of the economy, because everybody adopts this Bitcoin standard is going to be a pretty cultural and recession. sessionary environment, just the way it is. Don't overthink it. It's good in the long run. There might be some bumps in the short run. I just wanted to call out Michael. I think I read in

your bio or whatever that you have also just changed jobs. If that's the case, congrats on that. My riff will include something that involves that. But at this point, over to you guys, great commentary. I'll get to the Bitcoin standard, guys. I promise you. But again, I'm looking out 20 years, right? I've already put 30 years into this market. I'll put another 20 in and then we'll talk in 20 years. Yeah, having quite gotten over to actually being able to work full-time on Bitcoin yet, but hopefully soon.

I did get a new job, though. Added boy. Get to staff more sets. Congrats, man. That's awesome. Well, we'll round this one out. I look forward to seeing more people start to move down this road and kind of shift that needle towards less and less fiat exposure.

But we'll see. We'll see if you're watching the show right now and you're on a Bitcoin standard, let us know. But we're going to keep it rolling. And actually, Greg, I'm going to go to you first. I know that later on you may be getting tight on time. So I want to make sure that we get your reason in. full. So I'm going to defer to you and let you talk about what has you excited this week. Go ahead. Well, thanks. And I got a little funny story for you. What I did do is manage to double book myself at 6 p.m.

on a Friday. I don't know how you actually go about doing that, but somehow I double book myself. So I bumped the other one back to 7 p.m. But I'm going on this podcast called the Todd Alt podcast. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of it. But apparently he's, He's got a pretty good YouTube following and he's a bit coiner. But his production manager is a guy by the name of Willie Ames. And I'm going to date how old I am. Willie Ames was on this show called Aid is Enough with Dick Van Patten as the father. My wife had a picture of Willie Ames on her bedroom wall.

This is who I'm talking to at 7 o'clock. crazy that my life is all of a sudden spiraling in all these concentric directions. But why am I bullish? Very simply, and this is all about, you know, the community. Two weeks ago, I mentioned I was down in Naples, Florida, and I met up with Chris Gimmer. He lives down in Florida. So I just said, he said he wanted to hook up. And I said, hey, there's another guy that I want to meet that also wants to meet.

Why don't we all get together to the three of us? And we just sat around a bar in Naples and started to talk about the world with this new guy who is a former CTO chief technology officer of gateway security. Not gateway security, gateway computer. Do you guys remember that or are you too young? You remember the cows? You remember the computers were sold with cows. This guy is brilliant. He's doing some Bitcoin mining using old textile mills and the waterfalls that are no longer being used.

to generate and turn the turbines and even textile mills that were in the early 1700s that didn't even have electricity they were using straps and belts and all this things to flip the weavers well the the river still runs and it generates about it generates about a megawatt but he's purchasing these old textile mills and putting bitcoin miners in them and it blew my mind all right I'm like this friggin' community is off the chart smart. Okay. CTO of Gateway Computer doing this.

We got Michael. We have Jeff Ross. You know, I'm involved with this kid, Jason Lowry from the U.S. Space Force. Love him or hate him. The guy has an absolute brilliant mind. Okay. What he's bringing to this community is so good.

So I'm bullish because, look, we've been through a difficult couple of weeks. The traditional equity markets are sick. Okay. I need people to understand how sick the traditional equity markets are. Jeff Ross probably understands this better as well as anyone. The breadth or the average stock in the NASDAQ, the small cap NASDAQ stocks have given it up by 60, 60%. Okay, this year.

If you look at Jim Kramer's list of half to own stocks, they're like, it's a piece of garbage. And yet Bitcoin is hung in there in the face of, a futures product that all the knuckleheads in the world are shorting Bitcoin as a hedge against their equity positions. Okay? How do I know? Because I just know how much stupid money there is out there.

And I know they need to short something because they're long all this other garbage that they say, well, I can't sell my other garbage. So I might as well short something and pretend it's a hedge. Let me tell you something. Bitcoin is a long volatility asset. And most of the fucking world has no clue what that even means, except I'm going to tell you. It means if you are hedging short-vall assets, which are equities and credit, high-yield bonds, investment-grade bonds, and you're hedging those short-vall assets by selling a long or shorting a long-ball asset, you're inverted, buddy, and you're going to get crushed on the way in and crushed on the way out. And that's what the dumb money is doing in this market because they are absolutely.

They're hedged and wedged. They're in a fucking shit trade. And they're trying to make that trade better by shorting something because there's an instrument out there called Bitcoin futures that they think is overpriced. They need to do some mathematics. They need to understand that they're shorting a rounding error. And by the way, they're also shorting a long ball asset. over time, Bitcoin will become to be appreciated as insurance. And what is insurance? It's long volatility. It's short credit. The two things are exactly synonymous. So Seb Bunny and I wrote

an article that we submitted to Bitcoin magazine this week and it's gotten some really good feedback on why Bitcoin is actually the perfect option. No theta, i.e. no time decay, no expiry of the contract. It's long volatility. It's actually a put on the Fed put. Think about that for one second. You have a put on the Fed put. You're creating gamma and I don't want to get too granular here, but this is an engineers. It's an exotic option trader's dream and nobody has done the work to see why Bitcoin is the most perfect insurance policy. against the Fiat Ponzi ever created. And it just gets stronger and stronger as our community grows stronger and stronger with

guys like I'm on this panel with and the Bitcoin mining. Finally, all-time high hash rate, guys, it's only math. Okay. Don't overthink it. It's a rounding error. It's going to $2 million of Bitcoin in today's dollars. I'm highly confident. not 100% certain, but highly confident.

The market's giving me odds of 2% it hits my price target. I'm like, those are stupid, stupid odds. My odds are much higher than 2%, probably higher than 50%, to be honest, which means any price less than $1 million for Bitcoin and today's dollars, people failed mathematics. Anyway, over to you guys.

This is why you lost them, Greg, because you say all this stuff and you should just say go short a bank. We could, but here's the thing about a bank. Old money is still trading the interest rate gap. That's how stupid it is. Okay. Old money still trades the bonds against the 10-year bond against banks. So I'd rather be short a bond than be short the banks right now.

Okay? And you can get there in different ways. But like all true. Michael, you nailed it. Banks are 25 times levered and no one has a clue what that means. Essentially, it means they hold $4 of loan loss provisions against a $100 loan. 4%. 25 times leverage.

Hmm. How many times do we see these banks blow up? Oh, about every 10 years. And to be fair, they could get a bail out anyway. No, no, no. That's why they only have to own $4 because it's assumed they will get the bail out. It's happened like clockwork every single time in my career. You may as well go long fixed rate debt and buy something.

Well, I've never, fixed rate debt is the worst return opportunity I've seen, risk-adjusted return opportunity I've seen in the last 30 years, okay? And one kudos to Peter Schiff, he called bonds return-free risk. It's pretty cool. it is return free risk. You're a knucklehead. Now, Peter Schiff is still a knucklehead, but at least he got one thing right, okay? That bonds are return free risk.

So anyway, over to you guys. Not buying bonds. Okay. Yeah. I'd love to see, it's funny, if you threw Peter Schiff into a room like this and you forced everybody to say hard money and nobody could say either Bitcoin or or gold, you'd probably agree with everybody on. just about everything here.

If you, if you, if you only said hard money, like the, if the point was, uh, uh, the scarcest asset known a man.

And, you know, he disagrees on what that is. But the, the general premise of what he's saying. He ran the punt back. In North American terms, he ran the punt back,

broke, you know, broke it running down the sideline. He's going to go in for the touchdown and he fumbled the ball in the one yard line. What a fucking loser. I mean, you know, what else can you say? Like he had it all drawn up.

The play was perfect. The blocking was all set up. And he fumbled the ball. And not only did he fumble the ball, he kicked it out of bounds and it went through the end zone. And the other team gets, you know, the other team, you have to kick a touchback. This is the problem with overthinking a trade. If Peter had only put 1% of his gold portfolio, 1% into Bitcoin when he first was introduced to it, his entire portfolio would be up 10 times.

Holy shit. 10 times his entire portfolio if he had put 1% in Bitcoin. That's not good risk management. That's not good risk management. I think hard money should get exponentially better with time. And Peter thinks that you should fill a tooth with it. So I don't know. Pretty much.

Cuff links, guys. Cuff links. I'll open it up, Joe. Jeff, anything you want to throw in there. All right, I'll jump in. Sorry, Joe, I don't mean to cut you off. Greg, man, that article you just wrote that was in Bitcoin magazine, you all have to check that out.

It's a fantastic, fantastic article. And what I love about it is I think that a lot of people are going to be a little bit wary or nervous about reading it because it talks about things like options and it uses Greek terms in there. But they do a fantastic job of breaking down and really simply. terms, how options work, and then get into it why Bitcoin is such an incredible asset. Like literally, it's just such an amazing asset. This, this, the idea that it's, it's, it's a long put on the Fiat system, which is,

it's absolutely destined to crumble. And I think we're actually seeing it start to crumble right now, this decade. It's going to get worse, much worse, before it gets better. The Fiat system won't get better. The get better part is because we're going to move over to Bitcoin. coin, but the way to protect herself against that, exactly what Greg was saying, you have to have a long-dated put and a put on the Fed put. And the reason why that matters is because that makes the returns exponential. And you can capture that and hold that to infinity until you die. You get to

hold on to that call, excuse me, that put option, basically. And realize that return. And that's just something like we've never seen before. I've said this before that if we didn't have Bitcoin right now, I would be absolutely losing my mind because I would be so angry with what the government's doing. I'd be so angry with what the central banks are doing. I would be so angry that our only option was Peter Schiff's gold. I would be like, holy cow, this sucks. I want to shoot myself. Please don't do that. But we have Bitcoin. And Bitcoin allows us to opt out of this clown world circus with these crazy people running our lives and telling us what to do. And we have, don't have to be entrapped in this system anymore. Thanks to Bitcoin. So coming back full

circle, please read Greg's article. It's really good. You'll be really glad you did. And by all means, get off of zero, getting back to the old, the old hashtag, get off zero, meaning get off zero Bitcoin. Get your portfolio with at least a little bit of Bitcoin. Start small if you have to, start learning about it, start DCAing into it and see and see the benefits that it has for your life. So I'll quit there. I'm getting too soapboxy. Joe, I cut you off again, man. Sorry about that. No, don't worry about it. No, I fully agree. And even if, even if you're looking at this, like you said, Greg, that Peter Schiff is the worst risk manager in the world, right? If you look at it from what's the worst that could happen to what's the best that could happen, the only wrong

allocation is 0%. That's the only wrong allocation that you can have because even if it does nothing, then maybe 100% you could make a case is the wrong allocation as well if it goes to zero. But those are the only two that you can make a case where it's the wrong allocation from a risk standpoint. And I mean, just look at the chart that's behind me right here. That's the, I don't know if you guys can see it. It is the Turkish Lira. And what's happening in Turkey right now is it's the first domino. It's the thing that's going to start.

happening everywhere. It's your your your your policymakers are in between a rock and a hard place where they have to, uh, start deciding between deflationary death spiral and hyperinflation. Because the leveraging, the levering up has already happened. And the only thing that's possible to follow leverage is de leveraging. And that de leveraging might look like hyperinflation or deflation, but either way the de leveraging happens. And either way, it's not pretty. Get on a lifeboat, uh, because the lifeboats are not full yet. Yeah. It's again, to some of Greg's initial points of the innovation and the minds that are coming to the space and just people that are using old, old textile mills and and things to that effect of how do they get involved? How do they, how do they support the ecosystem? How do they build upon Bitcoin? How do they earn Bitcoin?

there's no end to how innovative people will be when they see the reward that they can get by by stacking and holding Bitcoin, right? It's going to be one of the single greatest drivers in human innovation we've seen in decades, centuries. I don't know, but I think it's the risk and reward of getting into this, as Joe, you were saying, the only wrong allocation. is zero. It's pretty incredible that in all of those options, Peter manages to pick the wrong one. But I digress, people are going to clue in and they're going to figure out how they can fit in to the space, how they can turn what they're doing into a way of generating sets and putting away the fruits of their labor in something that can't be debased. And it's only a matter of time.

And Ben, it's just to, sorry to interrupt, but in the words of the great Jeff Booth, look, you called centuries. There's going to be 100 years of change. These are Jeff Booth's words. There will be 100 years of change in the next 10 years. Okay. So you will see a centuries worth of change in the next 10 years. We don't have to wait 100 years to see 100 years worth of change.

And that's the fact. That's what happens in a technological revolution and a digital society. that's going parabolic and that's where it's going. You can feel it too. Like I imagine everybody on this panel can feel it. Like so much has happened in such a short period, especially the past couple of years. Every day, there's a headline. There's something going on that's crazy in the world that that Bitcoiners can point to

and say, this is why Bitcoin exists. This is why it's important. It's, you know, to have how much of the. the monetary base created in the past year and a half, two years, to have, you know, Turkey, a G20 nation, have the lira doing what is doing right now. It's insanity. And so many people are, they haven't, I think maybe because of the, the nature of Bitcoiners, it takes a certain type of mind to to dive into magic internet money before before like the bell curve but I think people are going to start hitting that curve I don't know when that comes a lot of them are

still kind of like comfortable and just complacent with all of the crazy shit that we've seen happen especially in the past couple of years but it does feel like it's accelerating it does feel like it's changing it does feel like more of my friends are saying what in the fuck, that is strange. That's weird. That feels like it doesn't make any sense. More and more people will start doing that. So it's going to be a volatile transition, I think.

But I think we'll come out better on the other end of it. Hey, Ben, if I can jump into your point here, because we were just talking about this on Twitter spaces the other day, if you could have told, if you would have told me two years ago that within two, So say we're back in 2019, two years later, a country somewhere in Central America is going to have made Bitcoin legal tender. That same country is actually going to use Bitcoin mining to harness geothermal energy from their volcanoes and use those profits to build schools for their citizens. And then on top of that, they're going to do something called a Bitcoin bond and use the proceeds of that bond to one, buy a bunch of Bitcoin. first of all, just for the investment of it,

two to build more Bitcoin miners in a new thing called Bitcoin City at the base of another volcano and have a whole city built around the whole concept of Bitcoin with no taxes, I think just a value-outed taxes, all they said, but basically a tax-free city built on the profits of Bitcoin. This literally is going on,

and people are like, oh, that's kind of cool. Are you kidding me? This is like right out of the sci-fi novel. Like, you know, this is like Dune or something crazy. And people don't get it, right? because they really don't get it because on one hand you have the lira crashing but not just the lira crashing you have the entire stock market there frozen and probably all of their stuff is going to get taken and you have a city being built that says we're not even going to tax you like we're not even going to take your stuff we're only going to take your stuff when you buy things and have a consumption based tax system they're two very different worlds and I think I don't see how investors can see us an entire stock market get frozen and not and like short Bitcoin. That doesn't make any sense to me. I, to Jeff's point, juxtapose what you just said of, of, you know, trying to tell somebody that

there'd be a sovereign nation making Bitcoin legal tender, creating Bitcoin back bonds, mining with geothermal energy from volcanoes. And then juxtapose it with also at the same time, you'll have articles like this. Bitcoin may not last that much longer. Academic warrants. Like what kind of did you get your degree in a crackerjack box? Like it's insane to me that you get those types of articles from, I mean, somebody from Cornell.

Damn. And that's my, that's my alma mater too. So I'm extremely embarrassed by that because normally I go off on Johns Hopkins for having the most idiot professor in the world, Steve Hanky, right? Preston Pish is John Hopkins. So now I have to, you know, tail in hand, go to Preston and say, yeah, Cornell's a pile of armchair economists as well. So anyway, shame on Cornell.

Do some math, Cornell. You're smarter than that, you knuckleheads. But it's funny to see that after everything that's happened, there's still, well, either Bitcoin's dead or it's dying. And that will continue to be the sentiment until. the last laggards jump on. It'll be 90% of the world is using Bitcoin. And those last few will still be saying this is coming to an end soon until it's not.

Until they either adopt it or gradually fade into the ether. Well, a note about the El Salvador thing. A lot of people look at that and say it's inconsequential. It doesn't move the needle. They're tiny. You know, the remittances make up 30% of their GDP. But if you look at Singapore 60 years ago, they were nothing backwater, tiny. They had nothing, no natural resources, no wealth.

And they've had the most economic freedom for the most years for the last couple of decades. And they've got one of the richest populations per capita on Earth now. Economically, they're extremely free. They have one of the highest GDP per capita in the world. Again, no natural resources, all built on freedom. And when the money isn't controlled by somebody, you have the foundation is freedom. And so imagine where El Salvador is going to be in 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years. And kind of the game theory that sets in at that point with other countries looking and watching and saying,

look at what happens when all you have to do is make this simple switch. You're going to start to see countries without a competitive advantage right now start to use that as a competitive advantage. exciting i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm really waiting to see what what happens you know five years out when they start paying uh on top of the coupon and when they start paying the dividends from the bitcoin appreciation and then like the the full maturity of the 10 year bond like those those points in time will be pretty pretty telling for the rest of the world it assuming that the rest of the world doesn't notice far earlier than that. But yeah, anyways, so I'm going to wrap this topic up. Greg, thank you very much for that. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And we're going to, we're going to jump to,

I'm just going by my screen. I'm probably going to go Joe, then Michael, then Jeff, if that's cool. But I'm going to, I'm going to jump to Joe, man. I'm going to let you take it away, new guests to the show. What has you excited right now? What's on your mind? Yeah, thank you. Mine is a little bit, a little bit nerdy. It goes to the economic theory about the price of money and the cost of money and what that does to everything else, how it's the foundation. So an example that I like to use a lot is the example of the production of wheat. Let's just say bread.

Because all the bread that's made this year gets eaten this year. You don't eat any bread this year that was made prior to this year and vice versa. And so if the production of bread gets cut in half this year, by necessity, the world will consume half the bread that it did last year, right? And so the decision has to be made about who consumes less bread. So one way you could do that is top down where somebody develops a central council for the world and decides these people based on wealth or race or country get to have all of the bread that they had last year and then other people don't get any bread.

or what the free market does is it sends out information about the scarcity of bread through prices. That's all prices are. Prices communicate information about relative scarcity of a good or a service. And so if the production of bread is half this year, then all things being equal, let's say the price of bread doubles. That means there will be some people that decide not to buy as much bread because they don't want to because it costs more. There will be others like bakeries who decide, hey, we have to buy the bread regardless of the cost going up. And each individual will make the decision and it'll work out perfect regardless of whether anybody knows anything about the production of bread or not. All they know is price went up, therefore I consume less.

And then there's enough bread to go around for everybody who buys it. And what happens when you have the supply of money being able to be changed, you're messing with the cost. the relative scarcity of that money relative to all the goods and the services. And so you have prices of goods and services and assets changing, but not because the information about those goods and services and assets have changed, but just because the scarcity of the money changed. So when the money supply starts getting changed, you have false signals getting sent to the economy about the relative scarcity of goods and services and assets. And so you have misallocation of resources take place

because somebody sees the price of cars skyrocketing. So they go fomo and buy a car, even though the scarcity that was being communicated to them about that car might not be accurate. And maybe cars right now are bad example because they actually are scarce because of the semiconductor shortage. But ultimately, these things all go back to the money when you trace them back because demand for,

everything shoots up when everybody gets new money that was created out of thin air and that demand spike didn't wasn't met with a production spike. And so you have all of this incorrect information being sent through the economy resulting in the wasting of real resources and misallocation of capital that results in the destruction of real wealth. So that's what happens when you have a supply of money that can be changed by somebody who decides. to change it with no restraints. And so what excites me most about Bitcoin is looking forward to the future. If it's just base money for everybody, universally adopted, suddenly now you have a system

where all of the price information is pure signal and no noise. All of the prices, maybe they're more volatile. Because if you look at something where you have volatility suppressed, like the price of gold for decades, volatility suppressed. It's held there artificially. But that's not real. That's not the free market deciding that. And so suddenly, everything breaks all at once. And you have the price of gold go from $35 an ounce to hundreds of dollars an ounce in a very short amount of time because the scarcity about it was the signal about the scarcity of that asset was being miscommunicated to the world from that volatility suppression. So if you have Bitcoin,

be the base money. Everybody uses it as money. Maybe it's more volatile. Maybe prices of other things are more volatile, but it's pure signal. It's communicating to everybody in real time what the relative scarcity of any good or service or asset is. And you're not having to worry about, hey, is this inflation? Is this deflation? Is this real? Is this you can make accurate assessments about the future with your investing and your saving and your spending because you don't have something that's distorting the information being sent out to the economy? I have a number of things that I'd love to touch on here. So one of the things is the opposite end of the spectrum of what you're talking about.

So you're talking about when there is no disparity between supply and demand, and it's simply the currency that is sending incorrect signals, We saw the opposite of that happen at the beginning of all the lockdowns. We saw, so your point obviously is correct. And then the handling of demand around certain things like toilet paper, oddly enough. And hand sanitizer is one that I've really noticed is what would have happened normally is people see a reason that they need more hand sanitizer. They run to the store,

they go and grab some, and there's less supply. The price should then rise because there's more demand. There's a set amount of supply at the current time. And then that would then defer people from maybe buying 20 bottles of hand sanitizer at the store. That's not what happened, right? They said, no, no, no, no, you cannot raise the prices of certain things in this situation.

And so what we got was empty shelves for the hand sanitizer section. And now the suppliers interpret that as, oh, we need, we need way, way, way more. And then now you go to the store and it's there's literally bargain bins full of hand sanitizer that everybody's like, what like, Jesus, there's so much of this stuff. 10 for a buck, great, I guess, but I already have 30 bottles that I bought previously because it was fairly economical to do so when I was panicked. So you see when people try and enforce like, oh, no, no, you can't raise prices on that. It skews the signals for not only the consumer, but also for the producer of those products.

And so they bump up production and all of a sudden there's just like a glut of hand sanitizer everywhere. And to your other point of it will be volatile, absolutely. And there was a tweet the other day, funny enough, we've already been talking about him from Jim Kramer. And he's like, how can a, I can't remember the wording he says, something like a hedge against an opt out of like fiat currency or whatever. whatever. How can it move this much in this short of time? We need to reconsider what this thing is, blah, blah, blah. But I mean, the answer to Jim Kramer shitting on the volatility of Bitcoin is this is this is what happens when a bunch of fucking degenerates use a ton of leverage thinking that the thing is going to go one way and then goes the other way. This is what

happens in an actual free and open market is those idiots get flushed out. They get wrecked. good. They deserve it. Right? Like that's your, you're, you're gambling and those people are going to get wrecked from time to time. And this is what happens when you don't have circuit breakers to come in and say, no, no, no, no, we'll protect you. It's okay. This is a free and open market. And in a free and open market, people aren't babysat. They start to realize, hey, if I do something stupid, I might get wrecked. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Or at least, like, limit my exposure to those idiot tendencies that I have in the back of my brain.

And so I, it's, I love everything that you just spoke about then. I'll open it up to other people, but those were my initial thoughts. Hey, guys, I got a jump. I'm sorry to do this. And Michael, I really apologize. I wanted to hear your stuff and Jeff stuff. So I promise to look on this, uh, follow this podcast up. I have one comment on Jim Kramer.

It's very clear that he has been told by his producers, what to say. Um, he embraced Bitcoin at the. outset for the right reasons. And then he's a brand name. He's associated with CNBC and CNBC is talking down the alternative to Fiat money. 100% certain on my part. Jim Kramer has been aptly named by Lawrence Lepard as a financial terrorist. Not my words.

Lawrence Lepard's words. Okay. I love Lawrence Lepard converted gold bug still owns gold, still owns Bitcoin. I got to sign off, guys, only to say this. I really am sorry. I double book myself. You guys are a very smart panel. I promise to follow it up.

And Michael, I look forward to talking with you offline. Jeff, the same thing. Joe, we've met before. And Ben, I'll see you next week,

okay? Happy holidays, everyone. I'm really sorry about my stupid booking, you know, lack of brain power. But I promise to make it up to you guys in the future if I can. Okay.

Thank you very much and good night, everyone. Take it easy, Greg. Thank you, Greg. I will be seeing Greg next Thursday for the Christmas special. We'll talk about that in a bit. But anyways, I will open it up.

Joe, Jeff, Michael, I mean, Joe is your topic, but maybe Michael or Jeff, if you want to chime in on anything that was said prior. Sure, I'll just, I'll throw it in there that any time you try to introduce, you know, price controls that Joe's talking about, it's always a worse deal for the population, for the majority of people. You know, free markets are clearly the best way to go. We're going to, and this is going to get into my topic, which has already been brought up before,

but basically what's going to be happening in Turkey, price controls from the government. There's no way that one or more people at the top of the food chain can decide everything that's going on in the market and think about all the different market forces and come up with a solution that's going to benefit society. There's always going to be second-order consequences that they didn't plan on.

these unintended consequences that just really mess with people's lives. I mean, we had that here during the Great Depression in the 1930s in the U.S. as well. It just wrecked people. I mean, people starved even though in, you know, some parts of the country had enough food. Other people were starving, and that was because of price controls at that time, too. So I don't have to get into it any more than that other than to say, Joe, that's a great analogy. And I completely agree with that. And that's what I love about Bitcoin.

It's the closest thing to a free market the world has ever seen. So we're going to learn the downsides of us. it like these people who get wrecked on a regular basis. Every time we have a leveraged long liquidation cascade, like we just saw in early December. But it teaches them not to do that. If you touch the fire, you get burned and you don't generally do that a second time. So we're going to see the benefits, though, of having a true free market economy here in the future. I'm excited about that.

Well, and it's easy to see the negative effects of price controls on things like gasoline or health care or something like that. you can see what happens. But most people don't realize that money makes up half of every single transaction that has ever taken place. And the value or the cost of that money is controlled by somebody. That's price controls. And so all of the negative things that we're seeing are result of price controls from, you know, 10, 20, 30 people on half of every transaction that ever takes place.

Yeah. And even if you, oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Like, go. Yeah. Even if you could like theoretically, because I think you could theoretically use, like, like more advanced artificial intelligence than we have today to like perfectly account for and centrally plan an entire society, that doesn't mean that the incentive structures will ever

be set up in such a way that it actually benefits that society. So like, you know, when the incentive structure is to, you know, benefit yourself, then benefit everyone else, that's exactly what we should expect. And then on the circuit breaker side, I think it's going to be pretty fun when the real when the equity markets turn their circuit breaker on because Bitcoin's going up too fast and people buy more Bitcoin in response during the time that circuit breaker is turned on. Imagine the gaps. Imagine the fucking gaps. Oh, my God.

That's when they'll be like, yeah, hit the circuit breaker. How is it still going up? I thought it was shut off. And then they turned it back on. And holy fuck, it gapped up like 10 grand. Like that's that's what eventually we'll be looking at

because you just know there's somebody like the circuit breakers will still be existing at the time until they realize you can't you can't just turn it off

it's it's everywhere and it's always and it's forever Laura I think that's coming I'm very excited I was there was something that you said

that I was going to chat about oh shit I just lost it. So that's okay. We'll keep it rolling here. I'm going to, I think I'm going to jump, Michael, I'm going to jump to you for our next topic. So I'm going to let you take us away on a journey. And thank you, Joe, for that topic.

I really enjoy that conversation. If I think of my point, I'll bring it up later. But Michael, I will let you take it away. What are you excited about? What's in your mind? Yeah, so I mean, I have my Bitcoin four-year block-based market cycle. Basically, it's based around the issuance of the Bitcoin rewards minors rather than gate time or seasonality.

I think a lot of people are disappointed that Bitcoin didn't moon in December as it has the previous two cycles. And then I also tie like central banks into my greater investment thesis. But if we just start with the Bitcoin block basis, market cycle and kind of build up from there. So obviously every 10 minutes or so, every time a new hash is found, Bitcoin, the protocol issues Bitcoin the asset to the miner that finds it, which brings more supply onto the market. And every four years, that supplies cut in half, which is 210,000 blocks. Anybody following Bitcoin kind of knows that. But where that starts to get more

interesting is when you actually start plotting out the price action of Bitcoin. by block. And I did that by basically writing a little code that pulls the blockchain data and the price data and brings it together. And what you can see is that the bull markets are actually extending out. Granted, we only have two bull markets so far and the third one in progress, but this one's now longer than the previous two. So you can see that those bull markets are extending and those bear markets are shrinking. And those bear markets are also getting sharper, which is. which kind of makes sense from a market psychology standpoint. You get those blow off tops because basically every market participant believes it's going up and only up, which would be very unhealthy for Bitcoin as it's designed actually, because you've got to flush people who don't believe in it for real out of the market. And then on the flip side with the bear markets, it makes sense because once people realize a bear market has started, they're faster to exit their positions.

So we don't have too much time to get into all of that. But basically what that means and why I'm so bullish on Bitcoin is that with Bitcoin trading right now, it's $46,000. If I'm right about this market cycle based on the number of blocks rather than the date time, Bitcoin is the best buy that it's been from a time-adjusted return since 2013. So that's why I'm bullish on Bitcoin. Okay, let's elaborate on this. So there's been a thesis previously that there's like a four-year kind of cycle that happens. In general, like it's the having happens. It takes a little bit for that like reduction of newly created Bitcoin into the market for the market to feel that pinch.

and then people start adjusting the price for that reduction in new supply. And then that also kind of gets a little bit overhyped and then blows off and then comes back to a norm. But that has very much been based around people thinking in regular human time, not in not in Bitcoin time, which I, you know, like Gigi did a great piece on this. called Bitcoin is time and there's a lot of people that are are starting to think in in Bitcoin and funny enough I got in a stint myself of thinking in Bitcoin time because it lowers my time preference in a way where it can be difficult to make major um hit major milestones and and hit major accomplishments in a single calendar year but when you look at it in in the context of a Bitcoin having, which is about about four years, but can vary,

you can accomplish a lot more. And so when I look at where I was in the 2016 having versus the 2020 having, I'm like, holy shit. Damn, my life has changed monumentally in that amount of time. And so it reduces your time preference from like a regular calendar year to like thinking more into the future. But I digress. Bitcoin on a longer time frame, if you're looking at kind of how Bitcoin reacts, you want to be looking at the time that Bitcoin is based in, not regular human calendar time. And so you've kind of based your thesis around this. And I imagine

it's it's relatively generalized but but you're you're looking at it from not a perspective of you know this this year to this year when did the having happen in this year and then four years later it's how many blocks since the having and so you're at it in cycles of 210,000 block increments which is whenever you haven't occurs and that's exactly right right the supply gets cut every 210,000 blocks which causes that initial kind of supply. driven rally and that leads into kind of a mid-cycle top and depending on which cycle you're looking at it may even alternate between kind of big first rises and then like more general kind of upward parabolas but you get your mid-cycle top and this one actually occurred right at block 49,800 and something

so almost right at 50,000 and then you kind of get your recovery or disbelief rally which is kind of what we're in right now is the price did in fact go and make a higher high, which then leads to more of the demand driven rally in the second half of the cycle until eventually you run out of buyers, but the supply keeps coming online, and that leads to your blow off the top. Interesting. And I will say actually just to that as well, like people think that there, or I believe market participants believe that diminishing returns are more,

extreme than they actually are, we had very different monetary policies in the first having cycle than the second one. In the first one, we were easing in. And the second one, we were actually tightening in one of the only times that the Federal Reserve and the rest of the central banks actually tightened the monetary supply. And when you adjust Bitcoin in terms of central bank balance sheet expansion, you do get returns that are diminishing over time. But that doesn't mean that the price nominally, especially with what the central banks are doing right now, is actually going to lead to a diminished return this cycle. So, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting because there were so many people that thought before the end of the calendar year, we were going to get that parabola, that blow off top.

And historically, like, we've only got 2013. 2017 to look for so November and then December. And to have a bull market run into a second calendar year would be the most Bitcoin fuck you thing ever because it's like the opposite of what the majority like right now you have like obviously there's like the whole Plan B stock to flow thing and everybody that hated that idea like dancing on its grave and and like oh it's debt. you know, all that kind of stuff. And I'm not vouching for stock to flow or anything,

but I'm just, I'm just saying that though the sentiment that I've seen other than like hardcore Bitcoiners are, is like pretty muted to bearish at the end of a bold year. And, you know, historically we haven't really seen that yet. So it would be, it would be just so poetically Bitcoin to see like a blow off

top in like spring. It would be hilarious. Yeah. I basically projected out to some time at the beginning, like very, very late February to very, very early April for this for this market cycle. And yeah, I mean, I think it, it, I think we'll hear if we do start to resume upward, you know, $70,000, $80,000 and higher, right? You're going to hear the drumbeat of the super cycle really starting to take hold, especially in people who are very new to Bitcoin.

And I don't buy into the super cycle yet. I think it may end up, like, let's say, let's say you're right. Let's say that we're getting longer bull runs and then shorter bear markets, but like equally violent. The super cycle happens when the length of the bear run extends beyond a four you're having, right? Like that's the true super cycle, I imagine. Yeah.

So eventually those, so if you draw a line through the bull market tops in terms of blocks and the bear market bottom, you actually get lines that are both going to the right, but the bear market's going to the right slower than the one than the bull market. So those do eventually converge, which, I mean, you know, before that you probably just get such small differences between bull and bear markets that you don't really get much at all, especially as the market starts to price that in. But yeah, and then I was also tripped up a little bit because the central bank expanded their balance sheet like crazy after the repo market flew up. But only half of the money actually has made its way into the economy so far.

So while at the time that people are very fearful in Bitcoin in the stock market, half of the central bank expansion hasn't even made its way into the economy yet, right? I don't think people can really even conceptualize that well what that even means because, you know, I mean, that means like another 25% up in stock in like half a year. And that's based on, I don't know if you guys have seen Joseph Wang, the Fed guy. He put a chart out basically showing how the money flowed into the real economy. Half of it went into the real economy from the Fed, but the other half went into the TGA and then into the reverse repo and is now, I would assume, going to make its way into the real economy. Damn.

Okay. Well, I'll open it up to Jeff, Joe. Thoughts, you know, like, do you prescribe to anything around like having impact on price? Do you, are you cynical of that kind of thing? Like what, what's your general thoughts on, on what we're talking about here? I'll take a little bit of an alternate approach here to cycles. When they become as apparent as something like the Stock to Flow model did or, you know, especially with something that says as in, it's quick of a time frame, you know, we're looking at the last, you know, 12 years, basically.

They get, once they're noticed, they stop working because they start to be pulled in from the future into the present. So like an example of this is if Apple said, hey, tomorrow, all of our products are going to be on sale for $10. How many products are they going to sell today? They're going to, they're going to sell zero. They're just, and that'll happen. That'll happen today. A better example might be a stock price. Let's say somebody has a magic crystal ball and they say, okay, the stock price of Amazon tomorrow is going to be $5,000. Well, today, everybody, assuming they know it's a magic crystal ball and they know it's true, everybody will buy Amazon stock until the point at which it reaches $5,000. And everybody will buy it, enough buying pressure will come in to drive it up to that price because as long as it's below that price,

there's a guaranteed return up until $5,000. And the moment it goes above $5,000, you'll have selling enter because everybody knows tomorrow it's worth $5,000. So I'm going to sell it if it gets to $5,000. Because I know tomorrow it's guaranteed to come down. So to the extent that there's certainty about the future price based on previous price action, it starts failing. And so I think the fact that some of these cycle predictions started looking so accurate.

in terms of their predictive power ended up, ended up breaking it. So just two things. First off, you know, stock to flow. If you're watching, I think if you priced it in blocks, it'd be really interesting to see that chart. But two, I think it's very different when it's things that are hard to quantify, right? Like, what is a new money really worth? Right? That's very, like, there's some percentage chance that Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency.

But that's really hard to conceptualize price and understand how fast that's going to happen when it's happening. I would say way faster than anybody's even anticipating so far, even some of the most hardcore Bitcoiners. It seems to me very similar when Amazon came out with Amazon. Amazon Web Services and people said, this is going to be huge. How huge? Nobody knew exactly. And I think that's where we get dislocations still from the idea that people understand that the supply of Bitcoin coming onto the market is going to get cut in half. And yet Bitcoin's trading at around, you know, even if it was trading at $14,000, that's a very different number than $69,000, $43,000 Bitcoin. Right. So that's kind of what I would say to that.

I had a thought here. I just kind of lost my train there. I don't know. Jeff, do you have anything you want to chime in while I recollect? Why do I take another sip of the old fashion? Yeah, Mike, first of all, that's really interesting. I've been thinking about this for a long time and kind of what we were talking about is, you know, we have two cycles from before that we've been looking at.

everybody knew to Joe's point that this is what should happen this time and then it didn't. And so what do we do with that? Does that mean we're at the end of our four-year cycles? Does it mean, as Michael is implying that it's just getting extended? And I definitely have thoughts about that. Or are we going into this super cycle? Or who knows? Or maybe it's some fourth option that we don't know about.

What's very interesting, Michael, about yours, first of all, I've been saying a similar thing ever since what happened in China back last spring. And it just kind of reset everything, reset the half. hash rate, it seemed like it was going to elongate this cycle. The other thing that I look at, you know, as a hedge fund managers, I'm looking at a lot of macro indicators. So like what's happening from a GDP perspective, what's happening with inflation, both in the U.S. and around the world. And based on the things that I look at as well, I've been saying on Twitter for a while that I think it's going to extend into Q1 of 2022 as well. And that's when we're going to see some kind

of final peak. I don't know what that means, though, either. So your time frame, that you said, I think you said late February to early April as a possible timing for the peak, that's literally exactly what I say for what I think is going to happen where I think we're going to maintain kind of a risk-on attitude across asset classes. And risk-on basically means so things like, you know, growth stocks, Bitcoin is basically the ultimate risk-on asset. Alt-coins, ride Bitcoins, coat-tails, so they tend to be risk-on as well. You know, and risk-off basically means cash, treasuries, sometimes gold. So those tend to do poorly in that certain environment.

So I see probably a relative risk on environment in the first quarter of 2022 before things actually get kind of ugly in Q2. So it makes sense to me from a logical perspective that if there were to be some price action for Bitcoin, it should go up. And I wouldn't be surprised if it went parabolic as well. I don't know if your model, if you look at any like price projections. and I hate to even ask people this because it's, you know, we're all just guessing. Everybody in the chat is like, please fucking tell me that I'm going to be rich right now.

So that would be my question for you, Michael. What is your model say? What are you looking at for any kind of price projection at the end of this cycle? Yeah. So I would say that this cycle, it's hard to give an exact price. What I've done right now, just because we only have two points, is I've drawn a line, which I feel an okay amount of confidence in, given the, extreme amount of added funds from money printing from the central bank balance sheet expansion,

as well as money going out to individuals. But I've been looking at it more in terms of real purchasing power gain. So in terms of central bank expansion, like you can kind of put prices in terms of all of the central bank expansions together and everything's either flat or down except for Bitcoin. But everybody wants to hear, you know, what is the price? So I, when I wrote this paper, I put it, oh, and that's the other thing. I don't know if you know about the pie cycle top or not, but it's an indicator that basically is a, it's a consequence of two moving averages where one is a longer term moving average, but times two, and the other one's a shorter term moving average. and basically no bull market has yet finished without that pie cycle top occurring.

So until it changes, I'm not going to say that a bull market is going to finish without it necessarily. So I basically projected out where would the price have to go on which date? And that's that purple curved line right there. And basically that puts the blue lines are where I project the cycle in terms of blocks to end. and you can actually see, right, the price crosses there. So if it hits it, you guys can buy me a beer or something. But that's at $440,000 Bitcoin. That's not necessarily any sort of sustainable price.

That's just for the blow off top. But I projected out between $3002,632,000 if it finishes somewhere in that block range. If you could go back to it real quick, too, I could just say one more thing about it. Every time we've gone under that line that I've drawn the two tops of, and this makes sense because all the Bitcoin cycles have finished with a parabolic top, you get this exponential rise in price. So that's why I say that right now with Bitcoin trading at $46,000, we're looking at, in my view, the best both time adjusted and risk-adjusted time to be putting money into Bitcoin. So it's funny when I hear Greg talk about people shorting Bitcoin because they clearly don't, they haven't spent the time and they haven't done the work and that's two Bitcoin wrecks. So, yeah. Awesome.

I don't know, gents. Any other thoughts? I mean, I'm all for some opium. I needed it direct into my veins here. But I don't know. Anybody want to add anything to wrap it up? Yeah, I'll just throw on a couple things is the things that I look at. And for people who know me on Twitter, I throw out a lot of opium just because I can't help it.

It's my personality. And so this is not investment advice. This is only for entertainment purposes. But there are many indicators that show things like we're at very oversold levels from a momentum perspective. There are on-chain indicators that show short-term traders. The gap between short-term traders that are bearish and bullish long-term OGs has never been greater. It's at its peak right now. And whenever that number peaks, there tends to be a major pushup and price immediately following that.

There are a lot of indicators to me that show we're kind of at peak bearishness right now. And if there ever was a time for a short squeeze, it's now. And Ben, I think it was to your point earlier, I see among even the Bitcoin OGs, they've kind of given up. They're like, well, I guess this year is awash. This kind of blows. You know, I was expecting it to be above six figures by now. Bummer, you know, maybe it'll go into January, February or something like that. that, yes, this is medical advice.

You need to help you on. It's all you need. But for real, like, Bitcoin surprises everybody, and we've been surprised to the downside for most of this year, and it's been a frustrating year for lots of people. We're due for a surprise to the upside. We're just due for it. And so I don't know what that means.

I don't know how high it goes. I don't know how fast it gets there, but we're definitely due for it. And I think even people who understand that the price, you know, let's say we're about, bear market, right? The illiquid supply of Bitcoin is still growing exponentially and it just hit an all-time high. And the only reason that most of that Bitcoin became illiquid was an orchestrated crash set up by the whales because leverage in the Bitcoin marketplace was so extreme then.

So I think that there are a lot of market participants that kind of intuitively get that the risk is to the upside and not to the downside as much. And, even if it were to the downside. I mean, we have to think about what risk to the downside means in terms of big stock market crashes or anything like, I mean, a big stock market crash leads to a government default and the potential of things like bank bail-in. So when you have to own something and you want to own something

that can't be taken from you, right? You don't necessarily want to be in stocks in a stockbrokage account. you don't want to be in risk-free debt or risk-free return-free risk from the government. And I know this is somewhere where I've really struggled kind of being a younger investor is that it's tough to pick something to own, but you've got to own something. And yeah. So I think that Bitcoin is still a very, it's one of the safer assets when you look at it from a risk-adjusted perspective. and its ability to be kind of confiscated or lost due to unforeseen circumstances in a very global and connected economy.

And one big system to have something outside of that system is invaluable right now. So basically, if you want this crab market to stop, you got to stop being a D-Gen and you just got to stay humble, stack sats, guys. the moon will improve when morale also improves and he stopped being such degenerates don't leverage your Bitcoin, it's bad anyways yeah thank you very much Michael that was a great little topic I enjoy these thought experiments into the future of Bitcoin

and how people have rejected it going this year versus how it has panned out and with that I'm going to we're going to jump to our last reason for being bullish, and we're going to jump over to Jeff. Jeff, the floor is yours. Why are you bullish this week or this month or whatever the time frame may be? Well, thanks for that. So first of all, what we just talked about, I'm very bullish because of the indicators that I look at. I think sentiment is overdue for a snap hire, whatever that means. And I don't have to get back into that. But we talked about it earlier. You guys kind of stole what I

going to talk about anyways, and it's kind of a funny thing to be bullish about, but what's going on in Turkey has me very bullish. And that's because we're seeing the effects of a ruler who's basically ruining their country, wrecking their currency in front of everybody's eyes. We're seeing hyperinflation happen in real time. I don't know if it technically meets the definition, but I do know that the currency in Turkey, the Turkish lira has lost. I think it's 54, 55% of its value. We've got 55% this year so far. So think about that. Over half of the value of your purchasing power has been lost this last year.

So if a can of Coke cost five Turkish lira, I have no idea what the exchange rate is. At the beginning of the year, now it costs 10. That blows. That's a decreased quality of life. I feel terrible for Turkish citizens. I mean, they're going through it right now and it's terrible. But what does that do? It's drawing attention to what is money?

Why is it losing so much value? Why are we slaves to this system? This is insane. Yeah, Lebanon is another great one. Some countries in Africa as well as South America are going through stuff like this right now as well. It is awful and it's awful to live through. And we don't really understand it in America or in Canada to the level that these other countries do. But it drastically reduces your quality of life.

And it's really unfortunate. So it's getting people to think about what is money. man, if I only had sound money that didn't depreciate like this, wouldn't that be awesome? Hey, what about Bitcoin? And so that gets people thinking like, why is Bitcoin so different? And that's how I tell people when, because people get this, they understand life gets more expensive every year. And when you're in these countries, you're like, man, life gets more expensive every week, maybe every day. Like, that's insane. This is, that's just no way to live. And so if, if you can understand that, then you can think about, well, Bitcoin is that same, it's the same kind of money,

but flipped on its head. It's the antithesis of that. It does exactly the opposite thing. Instead of debasing, it actually appreciates. Instead of being centrally controlled by people who have self-interest, who are trying to, who knows why they're making their decisions. I've heard a lot of conspiracy theories about the president. But he has his own self-interest, and so do the central bankers.

Bitcoin doesn't have self-interest. It's decentralized. It's not controlled by anybody. It's controlled by consensus. And so everything about Bitcoin is why the world needs better money. Everything about Turkey, excuse me, is why the world needs better money. And so I just look at what's going on in Turkey and Lebanon and these other countries as great advertising for Bitcoin.

We can keep spreading the truth about what it is and why it's important to have sound money, but this just really hammers that home. So I think that's actually, it's just like how it was terrible, that China banned all the miners back in May. and the hash rate plunged and the price crashed. That was fantastic, though, for the long run, the way that it's spread out the network and spread out the nodes throughout the world

and the mining throughout the world. The same thing with this. One by one, the currencies of countries are going to fall, and that's just going to push those people into Bitcoin. It's going to go like dominoes, one by one, they're going to get Bitcoinized. And so I'm ecstatic about it from that point of view, but I feel terrible for the people of Turkey right now.

So I've got a question for you here. So we're seeing kind of, you know, we've got the volatility of Bitcoin. And I mean, in general, up into the right, you know, give me a log chart for the past 13 years. And that's what you see. But it's we're living in fiat world. And everybody has a fiat mindset. And everybody's like, you know, I see I see comments in the comment section, even now. during this episode.

Over the past 30-something days, it's down this percent. Jesus, guys, like, zoom the fuck out. But, but that being said, everybody's in a Fiat mindset. And it's difficult to see. It's difficult for people to want to look at the log chart over 13 years. It's much easier for somebody to look at the general purchasing power of their dollar in the past six months. And with the lira, you know, it becomes more pronounced.

The U.S. dollar, it's like, ah, you know, groceries are a bit more expensive. Like, and they don't realize that the creep, right? My income, my paycheck is not keeping up with inflation. And so, you know, I'm on the hamster wheel. I feel it. I'm not sure where to place my anger. I'm mad at the corporations for raising the prices of meat. We need the government to come and fix those prices.

You know, so at what point, like, what needs to happen for people to clue in? Or do they, do they ever? Or do they just migrate to what insulates them the most? And I guess this is a question for everybody here. Maybe if Joe or Michael want to jump in here. But, you know, what's the impetus for people to make the social? switch. Is it that they realize what's going on or do they just inherently in the back of their mind migrate to the path of least resistance? Yeah, I have an idea about what makes people finally

clue in. Back in, after the financial crisis, central bank bailed out Wall Street. And the rest of the world was like, okay, we'll, we'll buy the debt, we'll buy the treasuries, we'll help out with this bailout because you're promising us that this is temporary. And the federal Reserve kept on trying to unwind and they kept on trying to do what they said they were going to do, the promise of making that temporary. And every time they tried to, panic appeared to the markets. And the biggest example of this was in 2018, the taper tantrum when the Federal Reserve had to reverse course. And then we know that a year later, QE Infinity started. And throughout that course of time, central banks around the world, they realized it's not temporary. The balance sheet

will never get unwound. And they started selling treasuries on net for the first. time ever. And now central banks around the world own less treasuries than the Federal Reserve does. Federal Reserve owns more treasures than all central banks combined. And that's never been the case before. So central banks have already clued in and started de-dollarizing. What I think is the next tipping point, it's already happened to them. They've already crossed that tipping point is in this tightening cycle where they're tapering the balance sheet right now. They're going to stop purchasing assets in March. They're going to try and erase. interest rates three times next year. At some point, there's going to, something's going to crash,

something's going to break. A bank is going to become insolvent overnight. Something's going to happen. And they're going to have to reverse course. They're going to print a couple trillion more dollars. They're going to bail out some more parts of the economy. They're going to do all these things. And people are going to realize, hey, wait, you just printed three trillion dollars. And it made my cost of living go up by, you know, 50 percent since you did that. And now you're printing another trillion another two trillion. I thought you were trying to fight inflation. And now you're saying you're never going to fight it. You're just going to keep on doing what kept on causing more of it. I think that's the tipping point. And it could happen next year. Might be longer. But I think that's

the tipping point when the Federal Reserve finally reverses course and starts printing money again like they did in 2020 because they can't, they can't continue the taper and tighten where else things collapse. There needs to be a people need to make that connection between money. printing and inflation and and and there's there's so many and I don't know where these articles come from like do people actually believe it but there's so many like oh the you know inflation is non-existent it's it's minimal it's transitory it's good for you it's your fault for thinking about it like we've seen we've run the gamut and so you know the the regular joe on the street needs to clue in that this is the cause of their increased cost of living and their decreased

standard of living. I do think it needs to get worse before it gets better, before people clue in and start using the alternative. But I don't know, Michael, what do you think? What do you think helps us round the corner of people realizing what the reality is? Yeah, I mean, it's a bit of a mess because, I mean, they're not even tightening. They're just trying to get to stopping of asset purchases. And then they're going to try and raise interest rates.

But interest rates have been at zero for so long that it's kind of diluted the money supply and the effect that I think even raising interest rates would have because people are paying off debt at zero percent. And yet lenders are incentivized to lend out a bunch of money at higher and higher interest rates. So we might even have a scenario where every time they raise interest rates, we get another blast of inflation and they raise interest rates and it goes faster. Even if eventually that money does end up, right, the raising of interest rates over time causes more money to get sucked in than is being put out.

But if you're going to incentivize lending, especially as economies are hopefully reopening next year, and a lot of people kind of have been thinking about what they want to do and they want to take out a loan to start something, I think you could see the rise of interest rates along with the unwillingness to wind down the balance sheet before they raise interest rates actually cause a lot more inflation than people are expecting, which would then lead to the belief that federal, sorry, central banks don't have, specifically the Federal Reserve, don't have the ability to rein in inflation because every time they raise the interest rate up, the inflation keeps going. And I mean, it took a while. It flips to my mind, the guy from the 80s who was raising interest rates to get inflation under control. But that raising of interest rates, you want to tell me real quick. Volker. Yes, Volker.

That's right. Volker got medieval on interest rates. But that took a long time to actually rein in inflation. And I think that's again, Joseph Wang, the Fed guy. I mean, he was talking about how we could actually see the opposite of expected effect rate. So as half of the money is making its way into the economy from the reverse repo and the government goes back to spending and putting out treasuries, which are then bought down by those entities that are in the reverse repo right now and they wind down that facility, we could actually, we could get another big spike of inflation even bigger than the first one as the raising interest rate. Yikes. I don't even know what to say to that.

Yeah, I think people will want to buy Bitcoin. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the conclusion here. I mean, how high did interest rates get under Volker? Do we know? 19% Fed funds, right? Damn. What would that do? I mean, there's no way they could pull it off.

But what would that do to markets today if we were to get into the teams in terms of interest rates? Well, at about 4% the federal government is insolvent. Jesus Christ. So there's literally no room to move. There's like they can feign like they're going to do that and hope that the market reacts as if they're going to do it. But they really, like the ammunition is, is few and far between, right? Yeah, and I'll just throw in there, you know, to be even more pessimistic. The longer this goes on and the longer that the Fed has to print to monetize the debt to absorb the U.S.

Treasuries, the more that debases the currency, the more they run the risk then of a crisis of confidence in that currency. And that's when things hit the fan. That's when you get hyper, you know, hyperinflation. That's when it gets really ugly, like Weimar Germany kind of stuff. And so we're not there yet, but you can certainly see a path to that point now. And it's hard to figure out a way for them to get out of it. Honestly, and of course we're going to say this, but the solution obviously is they need to back their currency with Bitcoin. I mean, if I was at the treasure, I'd be like, you know what, throw the gold out, give it to shift, start buying Bitcoin.

we need to do something to stabilize our currency to get some kind of confidence instilled because otherwise all of our currencies. So I do think the U.S. dollar is the strongest of all currencies. I think it's going to be the last to go. You know, what's a problem here is nothing compared to what's going on in other countries right now. So just like we're seeing in Turkey, I think we're going to see smaller countries with their little currencies kind of get plucked off one by one. And then I don't know what the final picture is, but I think we're going to have a high. with many fewer government fiat currencies and Bitcoin as kind of a hybrid model for a while. And then who knows that some people think that's going to last for a long time.

I think it may not last quite that long because, I mean, if you have Bitcoin and you have the Lightning Network and you can make instant payments, it's a great medium of exchange. Do you really need government fiat currencies at that point? I would argue not. But some people still think that we will have them. So we'll see. That's in the future, not for us to worry about today. I'm going to throw out one last question for, I guess, everybody.

here. But, you know, we have, we have Turkey. We have a G20 nation. That's their currency, like the confidence in it is cratering. It's, it's inflating at an insane rate, especially for a G20 nation. But the rest of the G20 nations and the rest of the world seems relatively indifferent to this. So I guess my question is, at what point, Do people perk up and start worrying? Like what nation has to go through what Turkey is going through for people to be like, holy shit, could that happen here? Like, does it have to be Canada? Does it have to be England? Does it have to be? Like, who does it have to be for people to go, oh, my God, there's a problem here and it's everywhere? Yeah.

So, I mean, when you say we, I mean, we're talking mostly about the Western world, right? I think if you look at countries that are more like, I guess more like Turkey in the sense of smaller economies, I think we're basically going to have to see something very similar to what happened with the pandemic where nobody kind of took that seriously. I mean, the markets basically went up in a straight line until it went to Italy, right? And the minute it hit a Western nation, that's when people realize that this could be a bad thing in the markets tank. So I think you could see the same thing with Western. All right. Okay. So here's what I want to do because I want to end on a positive note.

So first of all, topic, I love the rabbit hole that we went down here. What I'd like to do is maybe just do a quick round of everybody. Any final thoughts, anything that you'd like to pass on to the viewers of some. something exciting that you'd maybe like them to dive into, whether it be a piece of literature, whether it be a video, whether it be an app, or just something in and around Bitcoin or kind of the peripheral topics here that you would love people to take a look at that you think will benefit them. So I'll toss it to Joe first. Any final thoughts and anything we've covered today and anything you'd like to point people towards for further reading, viewing, so on and so

forth. Yeah, I've got a couple book recommendations for anybody who wants to dive into the rabbit hole of what happens historically every time what we're living through right now has happened because it has. And the more you study history, the more pattern recognition sets in and you realize, oh, these things have happened before. And I don't remember the authors, which one is on which, but the two books are when money dies and the downfall of money. There you go. Is that one Adam Ferguson or is that one Frederick Taylor? Adam Ferguson.

Okay. Then the other one is Frederick Taylor. And then the other two books are by Ray Dalio, big debt crises and his new one. I think it's called the Rise and Fall of Great Empires or I just finished it. I can't remember exactly what it's called. is what was it was a changing world order changing world order you said yeah what was the first one that you said along alongside when money dies uh the downfall of money so both of those study Weimar germany the Weimar republic and everything that was going on there and

which people got wealthy and like they're they even look at like little uh little things that happen in the newspaper clippings and stuff very interesting you think can start to see how the rise of Hitler was planted back during that time. And then the other two are by Ray Dalio, the big debt crises and principles for dealing with the changing world order. And those, he applies his kind of machine learning to go back and look at the data and come up with archetypes, what happens to both powers and economies on the rise in the fall. And they're fascinating and very good for pattern recognition and looking around seeing what's going on today.

Awesome. And Joe, last thing, where can people find you if you want to point them to a couple of places? YouTube first. My channel is called Heresy Financial. And then on Twitter, my handle is Heresy Financial as well. Awesome. Dude, thank you very much. Let's jump down to Jeff. Jeff, any final thoughts, things that jumped out to you that you want to say. And anything you want to point viewers to, something that you're interested in that you think could benefit them. Yeah, thanks, Ben. And Joe and Mike, it's been really fun talking to you. So thanks for this great conversation. So yeah, it sort of took a turn to sort of the dark side of what's going on in the world today. And I guess that would be my take home point is, you know, if you're looking at Bitcoin as simply still a speculation to make a quick buck or maybe, you know, to double or something and you'll make some money faster, you'll quickly get out of debt if it goes up. you're still just so early. And I would just so strongly recommend that you continue to take the dive and to read,

read the books that Joe's talking about. Read the bullish case for Bitcoin is a great book to start. It's really easy. It's fast. Understand that Bitcoin is, it's not just a speculation. It's not just an investment. It's not even just a hedge. It's just better money.

And understand what bad money does to the world and that fiat mindset. and think about why is Turkey going to pot and why is Lebanon a disaster and why are these other countries that we brought up today? Just getting wrecked right now and the citizens are getting wrecked. It's because of this really crappy fiat money and why is Bitcoin better money? And I would just encourage you to until you understand and think of Bitcoin that way, keep reading, keep studying, keep learning. Again, that books are great place to start. Other places I'd point you to, you know, obviously YouTube, this BT sessions, BTC sessions, is fantastic. There's a lot of great learning things on YouTube. I tend to spend a lot of time

over on Twitter and Twitter spaces. There's some great communities there that people just love to teach about Bitcoin. There's the same stuff over on Clubhouse as well. So just find Bitcoin people on any of those. If you like to listen and you like to participate in conversations, that's a great way to do it. So yes, take home point. Understand that Bitcoin is better money. If that doesn't make sense to you and why that's important, then keep learning and keep studying. where people can find me. Bayleshire.com is my website for my company, and then I spend a ton of time on Twitter,

so my handle is at Vailshire Cap. I'm on there all the time, so I'm happy to connect with anybody who has questions or comments. Awesome. Jeff, thank you so much for your time. Michael, hear up. Any final thoughts for today and any resources that you've found helpful

that you think might be helpful to viewers, and where can people find you? This guy's channel is awesome. He's been putting out really good content for, yeah. Thank you. For over a year, over a year and a half. Just incredible. Really helped me read the right books, especially in addition to the channel.

The price of tomorrow by Jeff Booth gets brought up a lot for good reason. It's really good. The global economy is continuing to grow exponentially. despite a lot of the poor central planning that's going on. China's economy is going to end up in the next 10 to 20 years, about two or three times of the U.S. economy, which is going to be a very different world than the one that we have, most of us have been alive for since World War II.

There really hasn't been that much global competition, and there's going to be a lot of global competition for everything, including money, which is where the bullish case for Bitcoin comes in. And yeah, so I mean, with that economic growth that's going to happen in China, I personally think that that's going to be a more and more free area, both economic and freedom-based. I know a lot of people look at a lot of the stuff that's going on with their CBDCs and their social scores, but one of the benefits of being a more prosperous economic,

is more liberty and freedom for the people in that zone. So I think that there's a lot of reason for hope. And then as the global economy grows, there's a lot less pressure to kind of focus on things that don't matter, like controlling what other people do and a lot more reason to kind of continue growing and continue progressing just us as a planet. I hope that you're correct. I

Yeah Yeah Yeah And Michael Where can people Find you by the way? Oh yeah I'm on Twitter

At Fair Free Digital I tweet a bunch I just kind of Started a new position So I haven't been on there as much But I update All my charts And put all that out regularly

So anybody who wants that Can come and get it Awesome All right well Gentlemen Thank you so much For joining me this evening and also a thank to Mr. Greg Foss for joining us as well.

A lot of interesting conversation. I hope everybody in the chat has enjoyed it as well. While you're still here, smash a like button. Give it a share. Subscribe if you're not, obviously. And guys, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for having.

It was awesome. Hey, thanks. Awesome. Thank you guys very much. I'm going to kill your audio and video. But of course, you guys are welcome back anytime. So I'll see you guys soon. And everybody that is still watching, thank you so much for spending your Friday.

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