BTC Sessions - Why Are We Bullish On Bitcoin? BTC Hits $15K ep113

Episode Date: November 6, 2020

As Bitcoin hits $15K, my guests today discuss the reasons they are feeling bullish.  Follow them on Twitter!  https://twitter.com/cgimmer  https://twitter.com/jasontowsley  https://twitter.com/jayberjay  https://twitter.com/TheCryptoconomy   SUPPORT THE SHOW:   LEDN offers Bitcoin backed loans – Sign up and get $50 free https://bit.ly/3oSqRi4   Get Wasabi wallet and enjoy your Bitcoin privacy https://wasabiwallet.io/   Buy a Cobo Vault to secure your Bitcoin! https://bit.ly/2GgMFlH  Cobo Vault Tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnRjvZKulrA   Crypto Cloaks: Get the BEST Bitcoin swag out there (code “btcsessions” gets you 5% off) https://www.cryptocloaks.com/shop/   Bitrefill allows you to use Bitcoin to purchase gift cards around the world https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/?code=O04UMic9   If you value my work and would like to send me a tip, they are always appreciated!  LIGHTNING tips: https://tippin.me/@BTCsessions   Join my Telegram channel! https://t.me/btc_sessions

All right. I'll give this a minute as it gets streaming to YouTube and then we will dive in. If you are just joining in, then welcome. I can see there's starting to be eyeballs on the screen here. So I think we're looking good. Okay. All right. So everybody, welcome to the stream. I have a lot of guests lined up.

And the whole idea behind this stream is, is why are we bullish? And holy shit are we bullish? Bitcoin blasted through. It's kind of popping around 15K today. In Canada, it almost went over 20. Just a dollar shy. Hurt my soul to see it just tap that and then go back down. But yeah, things are looking good.

I'm excited. So what we're going to do is I will intro the guests in just a moment. But first, we're going to do a little intro. This is new to me. I have not done streams like this before actually live. So bear with me if I'm figuring out things as I go. But nonetheless, very excited. So let's dive in.

All right. So before we dive into the actual show, I just really quickly want to give a shout out to sponsors of the show. So let me just bring that up. You cannot hear me. That's okay. Now you can. Okay.

So everybody, again, I'm learning here. But anyways, shout out to sponsors of the show, lend.a. This is where you can use your Bitcoin for a variety of different services. Of course, they've got their Bitcoin back loans. If you're in a pinch, you need dollars, but you don't want to sell Bitcoin. This could be an option for you. It's where you use your Bitcoin as collateral to get a Canadian or U.S.

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code BTC sessions at checkout. Of course, we have the Kobo Vault. I've been using this for a while now. I love it because it's air-gapped. Has Bitcoin-only firmware? I recommend you go that route. And I obviously love that it's interoperable with some of my favorite wallets. Obviously, Bitcoin Core, Electrum, Wasabi Wallet, Blue Wallet, all of my go-toes. So be sure to check them out. Link for that down below. And finally, if you're living on Bitcoin like myself, You got to find interesting ways to make it work. And bit refill is that for me. You can get just a plethora of gift cards for whatever you need there.

So be sure to check out bit refill as well. They are linked down below. And with that, I'm going to get rid of this screen. And I'm going to start bringing in some guests. I've got some absolute legends here. So first up, I'm going to bring in Guy Swan here. And I'm going to let you introduce yourself. Just let people know who you are.

All right. Good to be here, man. It's been a while. Yeah, welcome. Absolutely. For anybody who doesn't know, I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else, you know. A host of Bitcoin Audible that has almost 500, like we're getting close to 500 reads available to listen to for all the best Bitcoin works out there. And then, you know, 50 or so conversations and solo episodes and all that good.

stuff. And also co-host of Shitcoin Insider, which is our new show that I've been having a lot of fun with and some stuff coming on the horizon there. I have not seen or heard that yet. I've got to get on that shit coin insider. That sounds like it's going to be just a wealth of knowledge. It's like, you know, like there's so much just fantastical things happening in the shit coin space, but it's like, it seems like a huge distraction, but sometimes like you just got to know what's going on. So, you know, we sort through, we sift through the shit to see, to find out what all the inner workings are over there and talk about it. And it's a good time. That's beautiful. I love it, man. You're doing the community of service. Okay, I'm going to bring in

another guest here. This is Jesse Berger. Welcome to the show. Let everybody know. who you are, you were just on the show. We had a great chat. Go back and check that out. But Jesse, take it away. Yeah, thanks again for having me. I feel like I was on yesterday. So my name is Jesse Berger.

And two weeks ago, you would not have known my name in Bitcoin. But from out of the blue, I emerged with a brand new Bitcoin book called Magic Internet Money, a book about Bitcoin. And if you are new to Bitcoin, I would say, I think this is the fastest way to get caught up on everything Bitcoin that you may need to know. And if you're familiar with Bitcoin, it's just a great refresher on a lot of arguments. I'm sure you'll find some pearls in there.

I put a lot of time and effort and care into it to make sure that it was actually like an enjoyable and uplifting read. So yeah, check out my book and yeah, happy to be here. Let's do it. Yeah, I want to really recommend. I've been reading the book. I haven't had a ton of time to devote to it,

but I'm absolutely loving it. Like just the way, it's written and like the analogies you hit and the way explain it oh it's great and it's super entertaining i'm i'm love it again i'm only about like a maybe fourth of the way through it or something right now uh but yeah really enjoying it man i second that it's broken down so well and there's a lot of points where i get to i said this to jesse in our interview but i'll get to a point and i'll be like oh there's that thing that i usually stumble over explaining for 20 minutes and it's summed up in a single paragraph it's beautiful so so jesse congrats uh let's

add in another wonderful voice. Christopher Gimmer, welcome to the show. How are you, man? I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, glad to have you. Let everybody know, I guess, kind of who you are. Yeah, so I consider myself, I guess, an entrepreneur. So we run a software company called SNAPA, which is an online graphic design tool. And earlier this year, we put over 50% I wrote an article about the reasons for for why we did that, which was. I think you're cutting a little bit, Chris. Can you hear me okay now? Yeah, I think it was just a bit of a connection, unless anybody else got that.

But anyways, can you just reiterate you put how much into Bitcoin out of your company's map? Yeah, so we put over 50% of our reserves into Bitcoin. And I wrote an article about the reasons for doing that, which was, pretty well received and been sending that around to as many people as I could. And been falling harder and harder down the rabbit hole. And we actually just released a Bitcoin dashboard just a few days ago at bitbo.io, if anyone wants to check that out.

Awesome. Yes, I did read your original article. And honestly, it's like I kind of look at it as potentially one of those things that you can send to anybody to be like, that's just onboarding and be like, this is why Bitcoin. I think it's, again, an excellent resource for people. So thanks for, I saw Chris, you had your little video about how to put the Bitbo app like on your phone, that video you sweet.

So I did that. And now I find I'm checking it all the time. I wish I've done that. Yeah, it gets kind of addicting, especially on the day like today. So there's an app version of this? Because this is really cool. I like this dashboard. So if you're on, I think Android's the same, but if you're on an iPhone and you just, you know, type it in your browser, if you click the share button and then there should be a button called Add to Home Screen and then it'll essentially, then it essentially functions like a need of mobile app.

Yeah, here. Okay, yeah. Awesome. Cool. And we got one more awesome voice to jump in here. We have Jason Townsley. Welcome, buddy. You hit me up on Twitter. I think one of the quickest to be like, yo, I'm down.

I'm going to join the show. So welcome, man. Yeah, can you let everybody know who you are? What brings you here? Yeah, so my name is Jason Towsley. Sorry, I'm from Windsor, Ontario. And I'm just basically right around January, I made a decision to start up a consulting company

that really helped out companies, like small and medium, to adopt, whether it was blockchain or Bitcoin, adaptation within their company in terms of like their long-term strategy. And as I got exposed to the Twittosphere, that was the Bitcoin maximalist. It was slowly like just like a brotherhood that I never knew I was really a part of, but like it was just like sucked me in and I'd been kind of just like, just like attracted to it. It's like the most successful relationship I have going on right now. I guess he's good.

It keeps on giving. That's great. Awesome. So, yeah, like I was saying in the beginning, this is basically a chat about why we are bullish. And I think there's a lot of reasons to be bullish today. Things have been going crazy. And we're basically, the format is going to be, we're each going to drop a reason why we're bullish and kind of quickly outline it. And then we're just going to kind of dive into a little bit of a riff on that.

So I wanted to start really quick just with a quick screen share of something. And it'll be probably kind of small. Maybe I can, I don't know, how do I spotlight this? I have no idea. Anyways, this, even though it's hard to see, this chart is actually looking at 2016. And so there was a peak earlier in the year. And then kind of a period where we kind of had a bit of despair. And then as soon as we broke through that previous peak, in a matter of two and a half to three weeks, we reached our previous all-time high.

It happened very, very quickly. And, you know, we had a big spike back in 2019. We had some spikes earlier this year. But we've kind of decisively gone above that. And I'm curious if history will rhyme as it often does when it comes to Bitcoin. And this epoch will be no different. And I'm honestly, I'm bullish as hell because, again, I really see the similarities between now and 2016 in terms of sentiment, in terms of just kind of the market. You know, when you're in a bear market, there's bullish news.

but the price doesn't reflect that. But now we're starting to see kind of mainstream media pick up on stuff again because the price is there and the fundamentals underlying it are there. And yeah, it seems very, very similar to 2016 when we're starting to get close to previous all-time highs. And I, again, it's not financial advice, but holy crap, I feel like we're headed for another 2017. So maybe I'll pass it down the line and just kind of. get thoughts on on just how fucking bullish everybody is so maybe I'll go to guy and then we'll move on from there yeah I'm bullish in all the ways all the ways that you

could be bullish I'm bullish my the thing that I'm particularly excited about right now is lightning I am just absolutely stoked about it and particularly with a lot of the developments that have happened very recently and the services that have come to like board people and kind of like what Phoenix and Breeze has done oh god I could talk about it for 13 hours um but uh as far as like the price or whatever is I've been talking about in our uh our crew or whatever I I legit have thought since since the March crash and that just steady strong rise right back for like 9,000 3,000 9000 and then we went right back to stable and that was like a month because like a month and a half or whatever did that happen that was the

most bullish thing for me ever I was like shit I think I think we're going to hit all time high this year and I've been saying that basically since then and I still think it it's it's funny how crazy people think you are when you're saying that in like a dip down to 4k in March and you're like nah we'll be back at all time for the end of the year before the end of the year yeah I still think I still think it's well within reach. Unless, you know, some crazy legacy market liquidity crisis happens and we have to, you know, go through another month's recovery or something. There's still, you know, potential like something that gets in the way.

But no, I'm really bullish right now. Well, you look at the last week and you see how we just like close the gap and jump from 10, 11, 12K. And suddenly we've woken up. And oh, we're at 15K, right? It just happens. And in terms of the rhythm and rhymes of, you know, price history in the past, Ben, I wasn't necessarily around at the end of 2016, but I've, you know, looked back at it since then. And it feels like at least when I was paying closer attention at the beginning of 17,

that sort of resilience in Bitcoin's price at it, it feels like it's putting in that sort of firmer and firmer floor and then the floor starts elevating little by little. for if you were if you've been around long enough and have gone through the peaks and troughs you start to really feel that footing building underneath and you know that it's just coiling to jump up right it's it's it's almost like this gut feeling that you just you just know and feels happening but it's but it's because of all these fundamental reasons right there's you look at every argument idea down the line and bitcoin just just wins in every case there's no reason not to be excited not to be bullish about it.

And so yeah, it's very interesting this time around to have, okay, I've lived through this bear market and now to sort of feel that wellspring building underneath us. Yeah. How about you, Chris? Are you feeling pretty good, given your recent moves with your company and like having seemingly come through the bear market

ready to be experiencing quite the job? How are you doing? Yeah, it's, I, I, I, I'm a bit late to Bitcoin. I first heard about in 2017. And then 2019 is when I really, I guess really come on board, started buying personally. And then it's, you know, I initially, like a lot of people, you kind of look at Bitcoin as, you know, like a hedge or a speculative kind of thing purely from like an investment standpoint. And then when we put, when we essentially bought it with the company, that's when, you know, I had gone so far down the

rabbit hole and was so concerned with what's happening in the global economy that I really started to view fiat currency as more risky than Bitcoin. And, you know, I think that's just playing out like right before our eyes, which is crazy. And so obviously, the move in the company and seeing our cash reserves double from where, you know, a triple with our first buy and, you know, we've been, And we put a big initial position and then we've essentially just been buying on a, you know, bi-weekly basis as the cash flow comes in. You know, when more, you can't, you can't argue with the number go-up technology, right? And I think it's just going to really start to catch people by storm in this cycle.

Yeah, 100, 100% agree. I'll toss it over to Jason now. How are you feeling, man? Like, what's your perspective on where we're at right now? It's funny because it's very difficult to make an additional point and weave it through all the good points. But from like an ex-athlet's perspective and then also with an entrepreneurial standpoint, to me, it's being able to show out individual or company from A to Z, the proven track record of how it's been set up and it's delivered on what it's been set out to do. Like to me, that is the easiest way and like the biggest bullish point for me is because I can get behind. Just like any product that you're behind that you are passionate about, it's because it's delivered and experience or it's had a consistent, you know, kind of output.

And when it comes to Bitcoin, it's so easy to an individual from A to Z how to use. utilize that value and that's super important right now where people are in a standpoint where they're not trusting you know nearly anything so for something to be that definitive to be able to address you can just hand you know hold their hand up and just follow them to the point where it's definitive and being able to walk away from that it's super it's easy to you know explain to people and then see all the different bullish ideas that are coming out of that value.

Jason, you mentioned you, are you an ex-athlet, you said? What sport did you play? Hockey. When I was scholarship to Robert Morris, and funny enough, he was the financier of the Constitution in America, so it was in the States. So I got to experience, and I graduated the year that the economic shut there, essentially, like the economic crash happened. So I was like, ready to go.

I was like, I'm ready to take on the world. And then all of a sudden, there's just kind of nothing out there. Like everyone's just kind of like, let's settle down now. And so to me, being a Canadian in America and then coming back to Canada, I saw the interchangeability of like just the knowledge and then being able to execute and get a result. And then once I found Bitcoin, to me, that was just the way of just being able to kind of marry everything together to be able to be like, it doesn't matter if you learn economics and Canada, America, wherever, if you're looking from an A to Z execution, like, again, I was relatable from the hockey standpoint, just working on the offseason and then executing on the regular season, it was just a no-brainer to me to just kind of really jump into it.

Awesome, awesome. Now, we're going to dive into now, Guy's point. He was talking about lightning. Now, before we do, everybody watching, if you're watching on YouTube, please do hit like a big thumbs up on this because the more you do that, the more this bumps it up in the algorithms, gets in front of more people. Give it a share.

If you're watching on Twitter, retweet it. Whatever you need to do, get this out there. We've got like, we're popping between 60 and 70 live viewers right now. So, you know, the more you do that, the more we get live. So, Guy, you were talking about lightning, and I've got to agree there's been a lot going on lately, and it has become simpler and simpler.

I can recall back to a couple years ago, you know, when you could first download a lightning wallet on your phone and start playing around. And it was not easy. And the change in the past two years has been insane. So maybe you can dive a little deeper on that and then we'll all chime in. Okay. So the major shifts have been in from like basic. manually making the protocol work to hiding it all in the background. Like, you know, people talked about like, like, one of the biggest complaints.

Like I did very, very early on. I did an article. What was it called? Don't count your fud before lightning strikes. And it was 15 to kind of like the dominant complaints, quote unquote, about lightning that like any sense of just like how the technology. and protocols evolve, you're like, either A, they were complete nonsense, or B, it's clearly just an engineering problem that is fixed with time. And we're kind of past basically all of them.

And one of them was, oh, you have to explain to somebody what a channel is. And that's really where we have landed today is that a lot of the major improvements that have happened recently are in completely obscuring away the whole idea of a channel. like Breeze and Phoenix wallet for iOS and Android, respectively, you don't have to know, like it just opens channels on the fly based on the payment that you need to receive. And you don't have to wait for it anymore. This is actually a huge update that happened

with Breeze very recently, that you can actually receive a lightning payment in a channel that you don't have yet. And what they will do is they will publish, you pay a point, 1% fee to receive the payment so that they can open a channel on your behalf, but it's a, it's a, quote unquote, turbo channel is what the, I think the actual spec is called. But basically, you know, it's it's an off chain ability to update, like, and sign a new

transaction. And they basically just sign it over to you before the confirmation. And if you spend it out at that point, well, then you're just trusting them less, like any time, like for any amount that you have in it. So it's actually not a bad thing for you to have access to it immediately because then you can actually lower your trust with them by just spending it somewhere. But in the actual protocol, like in the actual wallet, it all just vanishes. Like you could just receive payment. You send payment.

And it doesn't matter the amount. You don't have to know that you have a limited amount of bandwidth, quote unquote, in your wallet. Like it just works. And we've kind of reached that point. And I use it every day now. I remember there were times where I would try to figure out how to make use of lightning. You know, I'd be looking for ways like, oh, can I send this somewhere? Maybe I can get a gift card on bit refill or something like that.

And I literally use it every day. I pay two people for work. I pay a guy who does website work for me. I pay a really good friend who keeps up with like posting and formatting and stuff. I pay both of them over lightning. I connect it straight to my bank account with strike. And I do at least half, probably two thirds of what I spend through full. If I can get it on Amazon, if I can get my coffee at Starbucks, I go straight from my bank account to what I am spending on.

And we're remodeling. I do a lot of house remodel. So I'm remodeling my closet. I buy it all at lows instead of Home Depot because I can get 4% off on Fold. And I just, I spend it. And I do it live. I do it like while I'm sitting in the line. Like I'm just like I fill up my cart.

I know it's like okay. So I'm going to need like $150 worth. I got $152 bucks here. And I get $150 worth of gift cards and then just scan it at the thing. And I just do it all live. I don't use my card anymore. I use my phone and lightning. And it's amazing.

Like, you know, the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed. Like it's a landing. And I can use it all the time. And it's getting easier every day. and new updates that are dropping, like I'm so, God, I'm so bullish on this thing right now. Yeah, it's, I've got to say the experience has been insane. Like Breeze, you were just saying with their updates, I just did a video on updated video on Bree's wallet the other day.

And it's seamless. Like you, if you, if somebody that you're dealing with wants to send you Bitcoin and they don't have lightning, you just, you show them a regular Bitcoin address. And it auto, it does a swap direct into lightning. And the inverse is true too. If you go to pay somebody and they don't have a lightning wallet open and they only have a regular Bitcoin address, it'll auto swap for you. Everything is just kind of like pulled to the background and you don't notice a thing. And it's it's so much easier to be like, well, I'm going to be spending a little bit. So I'll just plunk a couple hundred bucks in here for the next little bit.

And like I most of my income is Bitcoin now. the vast majority of it. And so I'm like as all in as you could be. And so that necessitates at certain points that I do need to spend some money. And so that's that's a huge bonus for me to be able to pay a one-time fee to get it onto a lightning wallet and then have it there and accessible and basically instant and nearly free. So I don't know about the route. I'll kind of leave this open. but has anybody else had some experience with lightning?

Are you looking into it? Are you or is it relatively new to you? You haven't dove in yet. Anybody can jump in. I think in terms of just finding a utility where there was kind of, I guess we're all bullish, so we see a very perfect outcome of what Bitcoin is. But I think what lightning added was the Lightning Network was something that just kind of said

for the people who were like, well, what about those transactions? Like those certain trans like the what ifs, the what about isms that whatever there was with Bitcoin, the minute I was exposed to the Lightning Network, I was like, there. They like they've got that that rounded kind of approach and that makes it work. And so I was able to at least conceptualize immediately in terms of the end goal, on, you know, something in terms of a smaller value and being able to execute, I was like, there, so there it is. Like, how can it not lose? Like, I don't know. Again, I could be wrong, but it seemed like that was just A to Z. That was the missing for a little bit, at least.

Like, I wanted to see how it goes. And now that the more and more, like you were saying, the more and more you see those working examples, the more and more optimistic I can't help So I admit to not having really used lightning at all at this point. I've been sort of a holder with coins in cold storage for a little bit. And obviously my head been in my writing. But the idea of Bitcoin and what it's trying to achieve, pardon me, the idea of lightning and what it's trying to achieve to me seems to be, you know, sort of very, very important to the future of Bitcoin. It's not the deciding factor because if we sort of just stopped Bitcoin

development in all its facets where it is right now, it still works in all the ways it's supposed to work. Lightning is a way that we're trying to improve it and make it easier and more functional in different ways and faster, of course, and with more capacity. So, and we knew from the getco as well, right how Finney, you know, a decade ago, 12, 11 years ago, whatever it was, you know, basically at the inception of Bitcoin was talking about how the base layer of Bitcoin was never designed or should not be designed to encompass every single transaction on the planet. It should not be designed to capture the $2 coffee purchase down the street. You have layers for that.

That's how the existing financial system is built. If you want to settle a transaction because you're going to buy a house or a car or some big-ticket item, then okay, that's when you're going to need a sort of higher degree of security and certainty. But when it comes to these smaller transactions where it's like cash in your pocket and, you know, okay, if someone mugs you and takes the cash in your pocket, like it's not the same as taking all of your savings, right? It's not the same as taking the money you have locked up in a vault. So when you use lightning, you're taking a little bit more risk, but it gives you that much more flexibility and just the ability to do so much more than we can do right now. And when I say so much more, I'm referring, I guess, to volume, but also, you know,

and Guy would know more about the potential utility of lightning. So, yeah, like, that's what gets me excited is that we're good as it is and things are getting better. Yeah, totally agree. How about you, Chris? Have you had any experience with lightning as of yet? I've played around a little bit. I've mostly just been using, you know, Bitcoin as a savings technology. but funny enough, a couple weeks ago, I was putting a deposit on a place in Florida for the winter.

And so I needed to send some money. And the guy I was dealing with wasn't super technically savvy. And in Canada, we don't have cash app or Venmo. And then it kind of just dawned on me. I was like, wow, it's actually really difficult to send money, even just from Canada to the United States. I actually had to send an e-transfer to a friend who sells a Canadian bank account and then he, because he needed some Canadian dollars and then he kind of gave the deposit to the guy in the US for me. And I was like, you know, lightning could solve this.

So I'm, yeah, I think, you know, to echo what others are saying is that over time, I think the need for lightning is going to, you know, we're going to see that need. you know, I'm pretty excited about the future development of it. Awesome. Yeah. One thing. Go ahead, Guy. One thing that I think about lightning that is misunderstood is that it's not merely just a payments network. It is a, it's literally an open network, like a liquidity network for anything that you can now code.

because it does not have the limits of like the scripting limits that happen on Bitcoin layer one. So like this, the lightning pool that just came out, the marketplace for auctioning off channel balances and bandwidth on the lightning network, is actually an external application that you lock transactions to its execution. So this is every shitcoins use case on lightning. And the application is completely arbitrary, as long as the operator and the user is running the same code and they can verify it, well, then they'll just sign off and update the state.

And all you actually need as far as a Bitcoin script is a time lock and multi-sig. And it's completely non-custodial. You're not trusting the operator because if you don't believe that they've updated the state honestly, because your software says otherwise, you just don't sign it. Time lot runs out and you get your coins back. They've created something called a, they refer to it as a shadow chain,

but basically it's essentially like a micro application-specific side chain that you just lift your Bitcoin up into and then it executes the application. And in this case, that application is an auction for where you need lightning balance. And what this actually allows Lightning Labs to do, like to open channels and get balances right and loop in and loop out or whatever is a painfully manual process right now, or at least has been. This is actually an automated auction system to batch everybody who needs a channel or has liquidity available to set a standard market fee. This is a financial product that is explicit to Bitcoin for liquidity on Lightning so that you. you can automate the opening and closing of channels at a real market price, like to actually figure out what that price is.

And then you can batch it. Technically, you can pay a quote unquote interest, like a fee for this liquidity. But because you save so much space in batching it with everybody else in the auction, you could actually pay one-tenth of the Bitcoin fee to open the channel and actually make up the difference by paying for the capital on the option as opposed to just opening a channel yourself. See, this is a perfect example of like the ideas and the innovation that's going on. And Bitcoin that just, you know, if you're not in it, you have no idea that some of this stuff is happening and what it can enable in the future. And it's hard to imagine sometimes what it can enable in the future.

So things like that, just that's one more reason to be bullish on Bitcoin. Yeah. And to add on to what Chris was saying, in terms of having those personal experiences, I can tell you when I was in college, in the states having been lived in a border city to get money across the border you always just have to declare what you bought but when i live down in pittsburg only four hours away drive to then just have a transaction and to really actually be exposed to what were the limited options to getting money across and to then be affected by it a lot of people in this community are people that have been had these not necessarily even traumatic events, just events where they've been just affected,

where they're just like, why can't there just be a transaction right now? And there wasn't, or at least there's limited. And then now that they have this option, it's no wonder why people are so passionate about it because it's getting done what I wasn't able to get done in the past. Moving on, like it's just, you know, like just accept it. It's now an option where it wasn't before. Awesome. Yeah, it's pretty astounding. I think, We'll now segue into our next, because we've got lots of great things to talk about. Before we do that, of course, anybody watching on YouTube, smash that like button because, again, it bumps up this video in front of more eyeballs if you're on Twitter, retweet this,

share it, whatever you need to do. We got us, we were between kind of 80 and 90 people live watching, so good to see so many people out. And I do see your comments if I wasn't on the chat before, but as those comments, you know, comments come through, anything that catches my eye, I will try to feature kind of in the lower third on the live video. So yeah, keep those comments and chat going. So I guess I want to dive over to Jesse. Jesse, you had an interesting angle as to why you're bullish and it's very topical.

So dive in. Yeah, sure. So it's funny. Actually, Jason may have inadvertently hinted at it in his intro, but one thing that is that I find sort of very interesting that's going on, you know, out there in the world right there right now, is that, you know, nothing seems certain, nothing, you know, up is down, left is right,

is the news fake, you know, what's our monetary policy, what's money worth? You know, I think in Canada we're due for a budget soon and like who knows what that's gonna look like. So there's just question marks everywhere. You know, what's the outcome of the election? Was this, you know, an honest election or, you know, have there been some shady ongoings

the background, are we going to uncover that? So just uncertainty is all over the place in the world and literally every industry and field that you can imagine, it seems like, you know, is the science real? But, you know, for I won't say it. So just lots and lots of uncertainty out there. And Bitcoin is just this consistent, fixed point of reference that is just this beacon that's just saying, you know, this is the direction, this is the way. I'm going to keep lighting the way and I'm going to keep telling you to go in the same direction. And that's it. It's super simple in that sense. It's completely known. It's completely expected. You know what characteristics the network is going to deliver for you

in terms of minimizing trust and being permissionless so anyone can join it and being sensitive resistant. So you have all these qualities that are highly expected and certain. And then basically that, you know, that's what gets me excited because you contrast that against the world around you. That is just a gong show. Everything's up in the air. Who knows what's happening out there. So it's it's that's my reason today to be bullish on Bitcoin. It's it is interesting because there's right now there's this narrative kind of everywhere that you can't trust anything and that like everything is so uncertain and to have bitcoin as like this beacon of truth juxtaposed uh this upon this world that is just a giant question mark is i think that's

why i see so many of my normie friends that feel all like uh they're sad about the world and everything's awful and all all my bitcoin are friends are like things are great love it every everything's Everything's looking up. Everything's coming up me. I recently called Bitcoin, like the North Star, right? It's that fixed direction, that point of reference in the sky that you can just sort of follow. And that's part of, you know, for the cover of my book, how I have the wizard sort of finding his way home. So you have that fixed point of reference is just, it's something totally new to the world that has that we've never had before.

And yeah, and then again, pit it against the backdrop of what the hell is going on, money printer go burr. you know how many trillions we get to print next month yeah but not only in terms of like what we've had but I think it's a tip of the cap in terms of where we're heading and how we're evolving like when I work with older individuals or boomers as the kids like to call them like I like to just not say we're changing but we're evolving and they're like tip of the cap to gold when certain things went down throughout history and we're allowed to learn from history and move on from that and be better because of it and see, okay, we haven't had your bets on something. And now that we haven't had many opportunities

to compare to a digital age where we've had all these other opportunities where there's was whether there was the gold or gold standard or there wasn't the gold standard, whatever it might be, something like gold where we often compare it to, again, it just has a history of proving itself. And I think over the last 11 plus years that Bitcoin has been around. Like it's, it's proven itself. That's it. Like, it's just constantly day in and day out, doing what it was set out to do. You know, so that's why we're all here.

Chris, how are you feeling about Bitcoin as this like beacon of truth and, and I guess stability in a world that is gone crazy? I think 2020 is highlighted. the key value proposition of Bitcoin of a stable, credible monetary policy. And I thought it was so fitting that when we had this most recent halving, it was at the same time that the Fed and central banks globally were just pumping crazy liquidity into the system. And then a couple months ago, it was either Justin Trudeau or the finance minister was saying, you know, now was not the time for austerity.

Well, we supposedly had a 10-year bull market, right? So if that wasn't the time for austerity and it was not the time of austerity, when is the time for austerity? And I think we both all, everyone here knows the answer to that is that there's never going to be a time for austerity. And so kind of like I alluded to my article, I became very concerned with the cash that we had in our bank account. And I feel much safer in a decentralized.

programmatic money issuance versus something that is just completely at the whim of politicians and central bankers. So just to kind of reiterate, I think this year has really highlighted why a stable, credible monetary policy is so important and why anyone competing with Bitcoin is not going to win. And WIM is a good word for that because, you know, although they like to come out and say, you know, this is our inflation target. We're going to set the rate to so-and-so level. It's expected to be at this level. That doesn't change the fact that on a whim, they can go a different direction and nothing can stop them.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I was just going to say. And I said, sorry. Let's go Chris first.

Blub-blub-blub-blib. I was just going to say it. And, you know, the funny thing, I just, I always laugh when I hear inflation's at 0.5%. Again, I think everyone here understands that. That's just a load of crap. All you have to do is look at, you know, the stock market, gold, Bitcoin, real estate prices in Canada are just absolutely serving right now. So any anyone, even groceries for that matter, you know, my Costco bills keep going up. So anyone who thinks there's, you know, 0.5% inflation is kidding.

themselves. It's insane that the that stats can would come out with that. Again, those that didn't see it against stats Canada coming out saying inflation in Canada has only been 0.5% for the past few years. Guy I was going to ask what's that website where it aggregate? I know it's US only, but what's what's the website that you always float? I was just about to mention that the chapwood, C-H-A-P-W-O-O-D, Chapwood Index.com. And it's just a flat, like the paper, if you look at how to break down the CPI, you would think it would be a really simple measure, right?

It's actually 107 pages, how they define. 107 pages to figure out how to define, and it's all just twisting workarounds to make, you know, oh, the product got a little bit better, So technically you're not buying the same thing. Like, I mean, it's all just ways to cover it up. And every single time they add it, somehow the inflation, every time they change it or they make some new rule,

it gets less inflationary. It's interesting that it happens every single time. It's also laughable that you could try to boil down the inflation rate for, you know, an entire country to a single stat, right? You know, a person, sorry, guy, we're going to use some Canadian references here because I think the rest of us are Canadian. But you could, you know, the cost for someone in BC versus someone in Toronto versus someone in Halifax, if they're all buying more or less the same goods or paying rent or have their

mortgage, it's going to be completely different if we're assuming, you know, same size house, same size condo, whatever it may be. And, you know, we're all expected to this number captures our locality, captures our, you know, our inflation. It's that part to me gets me going sometimes. in addition to all the messing around that goes on with how they calculate it. What's crazy about this, like the concept of like Bitcoin in this, or just kind of the totem of Bitcoin in this environment right now is Murray Rothbard talks about this. And there's also a really great piece by Hans Herman Hoppa called The Yield from Money Held Reconsidered.

And it's talking about what the role of money is in society. Why does money exist? Why do people, when the shit hits the fan, why do they run to just holding cash? And it's because one of the most critical roles of a store of value of an actual monetary asset is a hedge against uncertainty. Is that you run to money and you hold money when you have no idea what the future holds. Because it is the most reliable, most stable, most trust for it. the asset. And we are seeing the breakdown of trust in all of our political institutions. I mean, it is splintering a thousand different ways. And the trust of our quote unquote monetary masters is being abused at a ridiculous level. And it's specifically becoming a political tool for

control. And that is antithetical to the very reason money exists in the first place. Exactly. It's making it the least certain thing to have exposure to. And to have something with such powerful guarantees, 21 million, no questions asked, everybody's defending it. To have that exist in that environment is one of the most potent black holes of value suck that you could possibly imagine. Yeah, absolutely. And I think to like being in some sort of an environment, where there's so much uncertainty to have something that is so simple to go from a to z

and to be able to explain to an individual is so key in the time of of uncertainty because then that's where that value is where people can just understand compute and execute versus when you got this thing where the amount of emails i got from the like these huge companies in Canada that stated that everything they were doing was going to be in my in the in in the interest of my safety and whatnot through COVID and the results were apps were nothing it was just like you said uncertainty that's what it was but they were hedging their bets on the uncertainty so they're there they're getting ahead of it but then it's like well I saw through that versus something

like Bitcoin which is just persevering and just continuing doesn't have a a head that's getting paid X amount of millions of dollars and is hearing their, you know, the words through a PR company towards some shareholders. No, it just persists. Just keeps doing what it was set out to do. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, I wanted to.

Yeah. All I need to do is survive and it wins. And what's frequent really good at doing? It's really good. Yeah. Thank you. Shitty emails from the big banks in Canada. Those are the worst.

Yeah, it's it's it's it's amazing that everything that gets thrown Bitcoin's way It just it it it doesn't even it almost doesn't even stumble it just it just keeps doing what is doing If anything, it's just the people around it that that just parse the information and maybe take a A minute to figure out what's going on and then realize that Bitcoin doesn't give a shit and it's still functioning Exactly as it should. It's it's really amazing I wanted to die into another topic here and I'm gonna pass it to Chris in a moment here. Again, if you're watching, smash the thumbs up button because that's gonna get this in front of a lot more people. I've been seeing it peaking up above 90 live watchers.

So thank you guys for joining in. I see the chat blown up. I'm trying to click on a bunch of these chat messages to bring them up. So yeah, keep chatting away. And yeah, this has been a great conversation. I'm gonna jump to Chris because Chris, Given your company, Snappa and what you guys are doing, you wanted to chat a little bit about. And Jason, actually, this is also a topic.

You wanted to jump on. So we'll jump back and forth. But we'll start with Chris. You wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, why, why do have this as a reserve asset and why you're so bullish on this in general? Yeah. So, you know, as a company who's profitable, which nowadays, is pretty rare. No one seems to generate profits anymore.

But over the last couple of years, you know, we've been profitable and we've been, you know, saving money. And then eventually you get to the point where you have a pretty, you know, sizable amount of cash in your,

in the company bank account. And then you come to the Michael Saylor realization that you're sitting on a melting ice cube. And the coronavirus in particular is when I really realize, like we had an issue here, Our interest rate on our savings account was basically nothing. And as an entrepreneur, and so as an entrepreneur, like, you know, like we quit our jobs, we worked our ass off, we put in tons of hours, and we built up all of this value.

And for us, it was super important to actually preserve our hard work and our value. And we didn't want to, you know, put that money in the stock market because, you know, that could that could have downturns. And, you know, so we started going down the list. And then you see this, this thing, this Bitcoin thing, which is just so, again, it's just so stable. And yeah, there's some short term volatility. But we really, we really, we realize like this is just the perfect reserve asset where, you know, essentially what we're doing is we're keeping enough fiat. on hand to handle any sort of short-term obligation as well as, you know, a bit of an emergency fund. And then anything beyond that, you just, you just buy Bitcoin and you watch that,

that purchasing power not only remain stable, but actually increased because all the fiat is just melting all around it. And, you know, so far there's not that many companies that are doing this. Obviously, the big announcement was Michael Strategy and Square, but you better believe that more and more public companies are going to be doing the same thing. And that's just going to create a massive floor and price pressure on Bitcoin. So, you know, I tweeted this the other week. It's just like, Bitcoin just makes corporate treasury freaking easy because all you need is to keep some fiat on hand for the short term stuff.

And you just buy Bitcoin with the rest and you don't have to think about anything. Once again, Bitcoin fixes this. Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin funnels currently we're forced into playing these games with our savings just to survive retirement, right? It's a product of shitty money that we even have to think about investing our money to make it through retirement. And Bitcoin removes that hurdle of having to roll those dice and figure out how you're going to survive retirement in that it's actually finite. and you can actually have a finite amount of the base currency and just hold it. And with a deflationary environment with technology, you'll be able to buy more in the future. Your purchasing power is preserved and over time grows.

And that's kind of one of the major points of why Bitcoin even exists in the first place. I did want to say we're up to over 100 live viewers. So thank you guys for joining in and watching. If you're just joining in, smash that like button, give this a share, retweet wherever you are. Stoke to see a bunch of people watching this. Now, Chris, I wanted to back and back to your point about the reserves. What was the reaction from people that were non-bitcoiners when you mentioned this to them? Like what is the general kind of consensus when it comes to people when you say,

hey, we took half of our liquid cash reserves and put it into Bitcoin? Yeah. So it's funny. I had a few people message me and be like, you know, that's a boss move. I have investors. So we can't really do that. And then, you know, I think there's a lot of people still just look at Bitcoin as a speculative asset.

And you know, I don't blame them just because it does take. some time and research to really get the value. But again, once you understand Bitcoin, you like Bitcoin, Fiat becomes risky. And Bitcoin is not risky, right? And so I feel like until people just put in that base level amount of effort to really understand what's going on, I think they're, you know, it's hard for them to wrap their their heads around it and they're probably still going to think that, you know, we're just being risky and whatnot.

But that was one of the reasons why I wrote that article so that, you know, I can share this around with people and say, you know, this isn't just some magic internet money as Jesse like that. But, you know, there's some sound fundamental reasons why this is a prudent thing to do as opposed to just some, you know, pure speculative investment that we're taking on. Yeah. Now, now I want to jump over to Jason. What are you've, you've been watching around the space what's happening with a lot of this. We've seen all the news about obviously, Michael Saylor's the big one because he's such a giga chat and he's dumping hundreds of millions

of dollars into Bitcoin. And, and, you know, like that, that, what was it, that quarterly call that, that he had the investors call, uh, where he's, basically, you know, he strutted into that meeting like nothing else. But what are your thoughts on what's happening? What have you been taking away from this and kind of this trend towards more companies doing this? Well, I think the quote that I took away from it was what actually Dan Held said when he met with Michael, which was that it's the $250 billion solution to a $2,250,000, $50 trillion problem. And to take something and consolidate it, that's what we're witnessing, which is there's these

different markets that Bitcoin is slowly consuming. And you can see it in different avenues on these different companies that are investing so heavily in Bitcoin. And the more, it's just further proving everybody's point when these additional companies sign on board and more importantly you can see their angle so what was amazing about that conversation the other day with uh sailor is that he just point blank went from a to z in terms of what his logic was on purchasing bitcoin like so it's just out there now and and so you know that's what we take from and you know these people that worship Warren buffett in the stock market they look at

what he says whenever he releases his statements it's no different and and the fact that it's just continuing to just keep taking on these additional markets and then just absorbing them. Again, this is why we're all here because we're seeing it happen. We're watching it. And to us, it's just, it's so obvious. It's interesting because last, again, we kind of made this leap where last time in 2017, everything was very retail driven. It was just individuals buying up Bitcoin through whatever our, ramps they they could find. And everybody kind of thought, well, nation states is the next leap,

but didn't think anywhere in between. And now we're seeing that in between. So I kind of like the idea and align with the idea that this new bowl market is going to be very much driven by a combination of retail and retail people that didn't get in last time around. And now, corporate treasury. And I think if it was just retail that was driving it, we may not see the kind of multiples that we saw previously. But given that, we're likely going to see retail and corporate treasury, it's going to be potentially crazier than many expect. And it may be pretty wild. Now, the interesting thing that I find with this, and I've been chatting with a few people about this is that it's this weird inverse where if, let's say in the next Bitcoin epoch,

four years later after the next having nation states start trying to add Bitcoin to their treasuries, the companies that are buying up right now, the Michael Saylars, the Snappers, all of these early companies that are buying, some nation states may not be able to purchase as much Bitcoin as the companies that are doing it now in this epoch. And if you look back further, the company's buying in this epoch may not be able to purchase as much Bitcoin as some of the early individuals that were into Bitcoin earlier. And so you get into an instance where individual people, at least for a period of time, may have more money than nation states, which is crazy. Yeah, I mean, I think you're seeing it already in places like Venezuela where you see the, you know, people getting, you know, wheelbarrows worth of. cash and whatnot. And I think at the end of the day, though, it's all relative. It comes down to

your end result if you're getting it. I love, God bless him. I love the fact that Sailor was saying he's going to hold for a hundred years, but it still then just justifies what you're doing versus you see all these examples about people to not believe in what these different currencies are. Whether we're Canadian or American, we both look, we all look at both. And you just see these instances where the common person can't put together what's going on. Like you can have a question, whether they're a hard believer in Bitcoin, cool, maybe not. But at least when you just sit down and get down to like the fundamentals and have them talk out the rationality, it's hilarious. How many people that don't get Bitcoin are like, wait, so where are they getting the money from?

Who's paying the money? Who's like who's paying these bills? Who's putting these bills? Like these are just general people. They're not heavily into Bitcoin, but there's suddenly, you can see all these things with the day and age of everybody having a, you know, have access to the internet in the palm of their hand. They're able to ask these questions. And unfortunately, there's not a lot of answers to this.

Like, it's very much so just throwing money at a problem, but not having any sort of accountability. Where all of a sudden, Bitcoin, it's the opposite. And there's a big difference between throwing money. that you know you just create with a snapier finger versus actual resources right the goal of an economy is to efficiently mobilize resources and when you're just throwing money at the problem you're not creating more labor you know if you're building houses you're not creating more lumber but you're just making it harder to get the lumber to where it needs to be if indeed it needs to go there yeah it's a it's basically like basically the economy

is signaling and screaming as loudly as it can that we're destroying resources and we have a massive shortage and to just print a whole bunch of currency to close the gap is just cooking the books to make it look like we made a profit. And that's what history is constantly shown us is people when we were talking about going back to cash, it's because they want to get out the intermediaries. They want it to be p-to-p. If only there was an electronic version out there that could solve this problem. They just want something to be like, I hand you money and you take that money and you get that value and not like, again, whatever it might be, rather than, oh, let's make sure that our bank doesn't stop our transaction from going through and whatnot.

And oh, if it's over $1,500, we need to call somebody. Like there's so many different things where it's just like, I think as an adult I can just make this happen. And I don't need this person to just be this inner mirror or not even just a person. There's entity in multiple layers. Like it just not even for my security or safety. It's pointless. We're doing last right now. There's something that Chris said that I think is so beautiful and illustrating the fact that Bitcoin is so perfect in its role of money said it's it so simplifies our treasury strategy.

is that before you had to become, you know, you had to figure out where to put it in the stock market. You had to come up with some, you know, money manager or something. Yeah, you have to be like an asset manager. Some index fund or something. You got to figure out which one's going to perform the best. And somehow you have to know about all these financial markets. That is literally destroying the purpose of money. Like the purpose of money is to enable by having that or the result of money,

by having that independent universal store of value, you create the specialization of labor so that people don't have to know shit about financial markets to hold their value. It's so that you can have a financial market and everybody else can go off and do their own thing. They can just produce profit at their restaurant or at their software business or whatever it is

and they simply hold money to destroy the money so that you have to also become a financial specialist at the same time is to just abuse, it's just to destroy the specialization of labor. Everybody has to do whatever it is that they do, plus learn the stock market, plus learn how to build some retirement structure or figure out how index funds work. Which is an overcomplication of something that is simply laid out. Like, it's funny that we're now in Canada going back to teaching financial literacy. But it's like, if we're talking about that, money and money out.

Like there's all these people that talk about that. And yet suddenly as we age, there's this like, ah, but there's like this offset option where we talk about like, you know, bonds and what. And it's like, let's just simplify that. It's like it's funny when even the COVID-19 broke out. I was reaching out to a couple of individuals that were like part of my local government. I'm just like, where's this money coming from? Like, who's paying for what? And like it was always just like, we'll talk about.

about it when we deal with it. I'm like to me it's just like imagine if you had a checking account or a savings account in a Canadian bank and you were just like very like I'll talk about it when I deal with it like you can't just randomly buy like property or like commit to any sort of investment where like there's all these different avenues in which like so it's funny how like we're us being able to just look at Bitcoin and stick to those principles they're doing the opposite they're just shooting themselves in the foot because it's like Like you're proving our point.

It's accountability. It's measurable. It's a quantifiable asset that is just purely transferable globally. To economize means to like figure out how best to use resources. And it explicitly means I'm deciding between a tradeoff. I'm deciding not to use resources here and to instead use them over here. So to just print money to just figure just to fill in the gap everywhere. is literally to direct economic resources without making economic decisions,

without actually deciding what any of this is worth or what the tradeoff, where the cost is. It's just like, well, we just, just don't, there's no cost. Just throw it. Just go. Just do stuff. And we'll figure it out later. The word cost is actually a really interesting word when it comes to money. and something I've tried to talk about a little bit that if money comes from nothing, right? If there's no cost to creating it, then what is it really bringing to the table?

Right? There has to be some tangible baseline for value if you're going to make those trades that you're talking about. And then also sort of back to guy's other point, you know, money shouldn't be, and to Jason's point and Chris's point, money shouldn't be that complicated. It should be, you know,

your baseline expectation for, you know, I need to park value and I can put it there. And I know that it's going to maintain value, you know, call it in line with the economy. You shouldn't have to think about it. Right now, cash, Fiat, it's transitory and its value, right? It's sort of, it's fleeting. Obviously, it's depreciating more so than doing anything else. But it's completely unreliable. And that's a huge problem for, you know, again, Chris,

running this profitable company, which in itself is a huge feat in a world where you're competing against these debt-fueled companies. So kudos to you for that. But to have this bedrock that you can rely upon and sleep soundly at night because you know when you wake up in the morning, you know what you have. It brings a certain piece of mind that is super important. Sorry, maybe I'm getting a little off track here, but it, yeah, the consistency, right, I was talking earlier about uncertainty versus certainty, having that certainty, having that consistency, it makes a huge difference in your mind frame, in your approach to life, and your business dealings, and it can result in very positive changes in social outcomes that we aren't used to in this

world right now because we live in this debauched Fiat society. Yeah, one thing. Sorry, one other comment. The other day, or it was a couple weeks ago, someone was on Twitter kind of like defending the fiat system saying, well, just all you have to do is just, you know, buy index funds if you want to, you know, maintain your value, whatever. And I was like, what an ignorant.

Such an ignorant thing to say, right? Because, you know, like I have a finance background. So, you know, I understand that. But to expect, you know, every single sit to know, how index funds work. And then the other problem is if they go into a bank, the bank just rapes them with fees and bullshit mutual funds. So I just thought it was a really ignorant thing to say that like everyone should know

how index funds work. And if not, it's their problem kind of thing. So it's like that that mindset takes money for granted and that's the problem, right? It takes the underlying like what is money that that question. and it takes the thing or the entity that is money or the institution, whatever we want to call it, it takes money for granted. Yeah.

What's saying like, and there's a pre-filled PDF document that they have to submit to headquarters and then find out if it's worth the value. It's a, it's a weird, like, I love the fact that there's everybody out there saying one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin because then you can establish a value. And the market will, the market will sort itself. If somebody tomorrow, if McDonald's tomorrow goes, we're going to change minimum wage in Canada to $5 an hour. Like they're just going to go, no, you're not because that's not enough.

Like, so or if they're going to say it's going to be $50 an hour, it's like, well, that seems like it's too much. Like, so it's going to come down and up, but at least there's a value associated to a cost. And yet there's something that just replicates and is like 25 times leverage like the banks are. It's just to anybody just doesn't make, well, not anybody, but a lot of people just doesn't make sense because like where is it all going? Polic policies like that treat the economy like a mad science experiment, right? Like it doesn't treat the economy with respect. Well, one of the one of the silly things about that comment is like, oh, we'll just buy an index fund. It's like, oh, so we have to replace like the purpose.

like the purpose of money is to hold value like to get it today so that I can use it tomorrow and now now I need an index fund to do that through the value like do the job of money it's like why isn't money doing the job of money why don't need an index fund and it's like oh well it should just be a basket of stocks or a basket of other goods or commodities or something it's like what the hell do you think what do you think money is it is that good which is backed by the entire the entire pool of economic goods. It is a basket of everything. And you're just going to make it a basket of like five things because like those are better. Like money is the good which you exchange for everything in the economy that builds up around that money. It's the basket of all goods that exist. Like I don't want five goods. I want the money.

Like I want the thing that's backed by everything. Yeah. And I can understand if there wasn't a relatable analogy, but there is. There's a lot of relatable histories in the past. Like my grandfather bought his cottage up in the cottage country in Ontario. And you would look at like his receipt essentially. And it looks like he went to the local market and got written up. You know, it's like house taxes, property taxes, you know, total two signatures and moving on.

And now there's all these entities and there are these what seems to be on one end. these complicated factors, but in reality are just kind of blowhards that are just like trying to just have their Photoshop photo on the billboard. And they're trying to sell this service. And it's just like, can we not agree that like X amount of dollars equals X amount of dollars? Like we don't have to just add all these intermediaries just to have a discussion about a purchase.

I feel like if I want to buy a house and I have the money, it should just go to that person. I get the house. They get the money. But it's like, no, it's not that easy, but it is. One of the things that a lot of newcomers into Bitcoin, and again, there's going to be lots and lots of newcomers into Bitcoin in the coming year, 18 months, decades down the road even, is they don't understand the nature of why the money is even broken. and they look at things like Stephanie Kelton's book about MMT, and we'll print more money and we'll just give it to everybody. Yeah, it's just points on a scoreboard,

and the scorekeeper has no incentive whatsoever to manipulate that. We take away things to give them, but they don't affect anything. They don't affect you or they don't affect us. We're not actually involved, even though we take and give points. We're not actually involved. And I try to point. out that again as as Guy has been alluding to this whole time is that is that money is just meant to represent the total of goods and services that the existing people can put together with the

limited resources at their fingertips and you can't have any more resources goods and services than are limited by the people and their productivity and the resources available to them and so by inflating the money supply, if you were to inflate the money supply equally to everyone, it's a net zero gain because there's the same number of goods and services available. But what happens in inflating the money is that it gets siphoned to certain areas. Basically, somebody is saying that we don't believe in what everybody else values, where you have placed your value, what you have accumulated, what you've chosen to purchase, what you've chosen to create.

We don't trust you to place and allocate your value appropriately. So we're going to reallocate that value for you and funnel those goods and resources in what we believe is a more efficient way, which by and large is not possible. Yeah, the major assumption in that is that they think they have all the information to decide what's best for each and every individual when that's just impossible. Well, it's the pretense of knowledge. The pretense of knowledge. Like, it's, it's, they, they cannot because they're not making an economic tradeoff.

They're not making a decision. Like to, to print, like, let's say, like, over the course of my life, I, like, make $2 million or something like that. And, like, what does that mean? It means that I have made explicit decisions trading off what I decided to learn, what direction I decided to make my life, what dream I chased, which skills I spent day and night digging into and learning about, whether or not I fed my family or, you know, skipped a couple of meals to, you know, pay for a trip or somebody's medical bills. Like, I've made explicit hard choices in which I have, I have made my value worth, like my assessment of what is

important to me, and I have put it on the money that I have interacted with. and all of the people that I have interacted with in the economy. I have influenced it every single time that I have made a trade with somebody else. Because then it's explicit not trading somewhere else. It's almost like your lifetime ledger. It's my lifetime value that is influencing the economy. For someone to print a trillion dollars is to delete the influence of my entire life from existence. It means that you make it worthless.

It's all just crap. It's just like we don't care about your decisions. We don't care about your values. We don't care that you saved your family instead of being frugal or like going into debt or like making some frivolous expenditure somewhere. We don't care that you made those tradeoffs. We are going to delete the entire lives and the entire value measures of tens of millions of people like that because you are all stupid. You all suck and we are the gods. Like that is literally what that means.

It's profound arrogance. It's profound arrogance. And it's not even just deleting the decisions, the economic decisions of everybody today, but the aggregate of history and what's built up until now, the people that are in charge of central bank currencies are effectively saying we know better than all of monetary history or at least the current monetary history that has gotten us to this point. And again, the arrogance in thinking that can be done is unparalleled in my eyes. Yeah, it's almost like either the tobacco industry with lung cancer or the NFL with CTE. It's like, it's like you give a person five, ten minutes, you sit them down and you ask them like, okay, so there's this industry and they're leveraging like basically nothing. and they're getting everything back. You think that's right. And a lot of people be like, yeah, this seems right.

Or like heads, trauma, repetition. It's got to like not work out to anything bad, right? It's like a lot of people are going to be like, I feel like that could work out to something bad. But yet, to God forbid, if you question any of those two end, like, you know, endpoints. It's like, well, no, let's now discuss it. And once you get the results, it's like, well, it's not a matter of even I told you so. It's like, let's now like utilize this.

And let's use this as something that we don't have, like especially for Canada where we don't have any gold reserves. Why not let's hedge are like something that we're missing out on. You know, like something that we're, let's be ahead of the game rather than, oh, we'll just take Bank of Canada's wait and see approach and just like, you know, print money on it. Did you see that Bank of Canada, a little one minute or 30 second video they put up a couple days ago or a week ago where they're like, We're innovative. Here are all the, here's what we're doing to be innovative. We got, we got observers and we put up a week. Our website has drop shadows.

They're acting like they're like a court system that can like prolong a court case. It's like, no, no, hold on. This is the economy. You can't just wait and see. We'll wait until everything buffes out. No, no, no, hold on. You're, you're called the Bank of Canada. No, no, no.

Don't worry about it. We're good. We're going to wait. We're going to wait this amount. We're taking a knee. You're down 20 points. Why are we taking a knee right now? Maybe they got Stephanie to consult, you know, because she's all about points and just making

them up out of like whims and dealings, I guess. Oh, Stephanie. Just always. I love the dunking on the Twitter. Stephanie and Keith are the two more things right now. Stephanie, Keith. Oh, actually, hold on. Before we get out of hand, it's given what's going on.

Given what's going on right now, can we all just again, once again, appreciate my Peter Schiff framed tweet from January 6th of this year. I'm just going to read it back so that we can really appreciate. I got it. I want to hear it. Notice that it's in gold. So this was January 6th of this year. For those Bitcoin bugs excited about Bitcoin's 4% rally in 2020, think about this. Gold is hashtag gold is also up by about the same percentage this year only with significantly less downside risk.

If this is the best rally Bitcoin can muster, how will it ever hit 50k, let alone one million? I love it. I'm going to agree this forever. I was going to go down in history. And I got exposed to the guy who's the gold guy in Toronto. know if anybody knows who he is he's this guy who just peddles like he's the cash man actually that's his thing and he talks about like gold and it's so funny when i saw peter ship's website i just had ringing in the same thing that same like kind of desperation like come and get it like

they're just like a use car no no offense a used car salesman but it's just it's such a push Capital news car salesman's what's all. Sorry. Oh, I didn't know. But it's just like to me, from somebody who's looking for results, like it's the complete opposites. It's just like, oh, there's anger in this society. Let me just like get my mic going and let's just exploit this versus like the math equal plus Bitcoin equals like results. Like, you know?

Oh, we did. We did it. We did it. We did it. He has 20,000 in Canada. Yes, sir. He's the only non-Canadian on the show. I can appreciate it.

I can appreciate it. The funny thing about Peter Schiff, for me personally, he was the one who basically like red-pilled me on Austrian economics, like back in 2007. Me too. I watched his video blogs religiously when I was like my career was just getting started. It was like, oh my God, he, like, this perspective on economics, And it actually makes sense.

I studied economics and undergrad. And it was all this theory. And I could never reconcile that with how things actually happened in the real world. And here comes this guy. And he's like, oh, yeah, I predicted that crash. And he's got these, you know, great videos presentations where it's, he's just, you know, domino after domino after domino telling you how it went. And so for him to really, you know, get economics, but then not be able to reconcile,

you know, money and Bitcoin. and why Bitcoin is just a far superior money to gold, it blows my mind. I mean, I get that he has his business and it's obviously, you know, he's got to sell gold. That's, that's his business. And, you know, gold is fine. It's, you know, it wouldn't be the top of my list anymore. I, you know, I was a gold bug when I was sort of getting started in my career. But like to not subsequently make that leap with his, like the intellect that you know he has or guy, you know, guy, maybe you agree with me on this.

Like you would think he has the capacity. He's a super great guy. Like I've seen him speak in person when he came to Toronto again. This was, you know, 2009, 2010, whatever it was when he was here. Like he has it. And then he just can't make that leap. And it's so obvious. And it's so like perfectly fitting with his values.

And he can't do it. And it kills me. I think there's two things. But his son can. And I think. I think there's two things about it. I just want to say I'm like there's shift gold, but I'm long shift sets. But I think it's a combination of Peter Schiff does not have the slightest clue of what's going on inside of computer.

Like everything that is digital is just magic fairy dust and it is unimportant. it's meaningless. He just made a boomer threshold. Yes. Yeah, he just doesn't get it or you don't. Any of it. He's just like, I'm on a hard, no. But I got to admit, I've been surprised.

I've slowly begun to like identify more like it makes more sense to me now. Why so many gold bugs do not understand the value case of Bitcoin. And it's because they, they miss narrowed where the, key value case is. They basically went back to, oh, because it's physical. And they never went deeper to figure out what is it about it being physical that makes it worth something? Like, why is physical better than paper? What's the difference between those two things? And the thing is, is that the fact that it is physical means that it has unbelievably high assurances. There are these laws of thermodynamics, there are these atomic characteristics of gold that make it incredibly

difficult to change. It has monetary assurances in a monetary policy that is completely separate from all of its representations and that can actually be verified in the real world. And once you begin to realize that it's the degree of assurances that gold has in its monetary policy, in the fact that it exists in a scarce amount and has certain set of characteristics, you realize that cryptography and consensus can give those assurances as well. And in fact, give those assurances in a far easier to prove far more concrete way. It is all just an abstraction of the fact that you can't make more gold. What happens when you can do when you can replicate that in the digital and you can do it better?

Then you have then you have his Michael Saylor says magic gold. You have gold with magical powers. Yeah, I think the ultimate aha moment. for Bitcoin so far was when Pomp was talking to Kramer in where he even admitted like he doesn't fully understand Bitcoin, but he sees the value to hand it over to his son and whatnot. Where I just for whatever reason, I don't know why, but Peter is doubling down on just not understanding. If he just said like, I don't understand it, but I see the value of my son moving on, that's

great. Now you see the bridge to it. But he's like, no, I disagree with my son. And like, it's a weird little way of going about it versus like, at least Kramer was like, hey, I see the value in taking something like Bitcoin, which I don't fully understand. But if my son's coming to it, like he just has the, that self-awareness to just be like, if he's interested in it, like I was taught in business school that the individuals that are the most, I guess, the most, the most, manipulative of the market are the 18 to 25 year olds you know or even younger a little bit younger so because those are the people that are giving that money that has that non-discretional value and then like they don't see the value of

it and they're putting it towards something so you know I love that that those are coming more and more happening up I love it awesome well guys I'm gonna I'm gonna start wrapping it out here first off I want to say thank you to every single one of you for joining me. I really have a great conversation. We've had well over, we've had like between 110, 120 live viewers for the last little bit here. So thanks everybody that's watching. Again, I've been watching the chat and everything. Thank you for all the, the mentions and everything going on there. Everybody's having a good time over there. What I wanted to do is go down the line, basically the reverse of what we did last time. I'll let each person

and have a closing thought before we close out the screen. And if you want to stick around for it to say a goodbye after I end the stream, then feel free to. But we'll do reverse order. We'll start with Jason this time. Jason, do you want to leave some closing thoughts since you were just chatting? Well, first off, I definitely smash the like button for you. So I made sure to subscribe.

But in terms of just closing thoughts, it just still comes down to what we've been in this for, which is being able to identify a value and being able to execute on it. And that's what we're here for. So I'm really glad that I got kind of just a backup of different examples and different ways of looking at executing a value tonight. I now have a broader scope, which is hard to believe that I thought I had a huge scope on things, but now I really have expanded on that. And I'm looking forward to the next couple of months, if not years. Awesome.

Looks like you're just diving further down the rabbit hole. Jason, thank you for being here. And I'm going to close out your window and we'll jump to Chris here. Have a good one. Yeah, I think Bitcoin has just been incredibly de-rists. since 2017. There's no question that it's, it's, I think we lost Chris's sound.

Chris, can you, can you just restart there? It was a little choppy. Yeah, sorry, having some connection issues for some reason. But yeah, I think Bitcoin has been incredibly de-risk since 2017. And I think Michael, Michael Saylor said this. It's like, when you understand Bitcoin, you don't put 1% in. And again, this is not financial advice, but I, I'm kind of at that realization. right now and something else that it was either you Ben or Guy mentioned it that I think a lot of

people overlooked corporations in the in the in the um i guess path to a bitcoinization or hyper bitcoinization um and so i think that is going to be a very key part of this cycle um and kind of like preston talks about that you know who knows when we're like we could reach escape velocity this cycle um and so you you know you know don't want to be on the wrong side of that. Yeah, 100%. Chris, thank you so much for being here and to close out your window and we'll jump over to Jesse. So thanks, man.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. All right, Jesse, you're up. Yeah. So I guess a couple things for me to Jason's point. He was talking about the scope of Bitcoin and the things you learn. One of the things that as you get more familiar with Bitcoin, you come to realize that Bitcoin is an excellent teacher. It ends up teaching you various lessons because it has these hard-coded set of principles that are unshakable and unfailing.

And there's something for each individual to take away from those. So I think that's super important. And then in terms of my opening point about why I was bullish today, this stall started as, okay, why are we all bullish today? I talked about uncertainty in the world around us. And Bitcoin, while to many it may be unfamiliar, the last thing it is uncertain. It is very definite. You know what you're getting with it.

It's just a matter of putting it in context and why it exists, how it came into being and what it does and what value it brings and the lessons it teaches and how it can affect. your behavior as your preferred basis for commerce, if that's what you so choose to use as your preferred basis of commerce going forward. So every reason imaginable to be excited and bullish about Bitcoin, I'll give myself a plug here and that's why I wrote the book. Magic Internet Money, a book about Bitcoin. What is money? Find your answer to that. Yes. Check out the interview that I did with Jesse as well. That's

that's on my channel. And so with that, I will side off. Thank you, Jesse. All right, Guy, you're up. Last one. All right. So one of the really big reasons I'm bullish right now is basically what Michael Saylor has kicked off.

Like one of those things, like Bitcoin is an odd thing, right? It's a very out there asset. And there is absolutely this scope of like social permits. mission is that are can we legitimately look into this is this a toy is this something we need to stay away from nobody wants to be the first person through the wall but at the same time nobody wants to be the last and michael sailor basically gave the entire corporate world the most the loudest most screaming like hardcore conviction level of social permission to take this thing seriously. And as they start to move into it, there's not a board, there's not a

sensible boardroom of a billion dollar company right now that is not talking about it, that it is not on the table. And that is going to make this whole thing crazy. We are a baby in comparison to the environment that it's now getting into. And with that, I want to, I want to slow things down a little bit for everybody who hasn't been in a bull market. This is my fourth one, I guess, now. It's really exciting, but it's also really fucking scary. Like, it gets stressful really really fast, and you'll realize that what was a little bit of money turned into a lot of money really quickly. and you need to prepare before we get there. If you don't have a proper backup of your keys,

if you haven't withdrawn from your custodian, if you don't know how to back up your own seed, that is when things get really nerve-wracking and you're realizing just how much exposure you have to someone else's fault. Take the time, learn it now. Watch BTC sessions tutorial. Like he's got a freaking billion of them.

I've got a couple of them now on YouTube. I'm way behind, but I'm getting there. I'm going to be adding to it. Listen to Bitcoin Audible, obviously. And learn. Learn now. Back up your keys.

Get a hardware wallet. Be in control of your money now before this gets out of control. Because it's going to get crazy. Kind of exciting to be back into it. But, you know, there's a little bit of beads of sweat too. because we're definitely getting there. Yeah, absolutely. Guy, thank you so much for being on.

Always great chatting with you. And be sure to check him out, everybody. I'll sign you out here. I'll say my closing words here. Thanks, buddy. So everybody, again, thank you so much for watching. This got a lot busier in the chat than I thought. But that's great.

That's awesome. So thank you guys so much for watching. As always on YouTube, if you're there, like, subscribe, share all of those things. So important, it really helps the channel. It really helps get this in front of as many eyeballs as possible. And I can see that you guys were doing it today because of the number of viewers. Again, if you're on Twitter, wherever, share this out, always super helpful. If you want to help out the show in another way, you can hit up the sponsors, I mentioned

down below. That was Leden, Crypto Cloaks, Kobo, Bit Refill. They're all down here, along with the Twitter profiles of everybody that was a guest today. Really appreciated all of them being on. And if you really liked what you saw, you can always drop me a Lightning Network tip. If you're playing with that,

that's at my tippin.me page. This t-i-p-p-in.n. Dot me slash at BTC sessions. With that, I'm out. Have yourselves a wonderful day, a wonderful evening, and I'll see you next time for your daily session.