BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Rob Hamilton, Jon Gordon, Aaron Foster ep322

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the show, another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? We've got an awesome panel today. Very excited. All first timers to the show, so happy to have them all. We're going to be diving in. We've got plenty to be bullish about this week. Maybe we'll get a little bit spicy.

We'll see what the comments dictate. Nonetheless, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live. Do it live.

I'll write it and we'll do it live. The fucking thing sucks. Yeah. If you have not already, like, subscribe, share, all those things super important. Helps get this content in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC sessions. This is your daily session. Before we bring in our panelists, let's take a look at where we are in the market right now.

This is timechain calendar.com. Sitting at 21,5.95 cuck bucks per Bitcoin, a single U.S. dollar will pick you up 4,631 sats. 91.84% of all Bitcoin have been mined, which is 19.29 million of them. And in terms of fees, a little high right now, 26 sats per byte for next block, even if you're willing to wait for a while, still looking at high double digits, 17 sats per bite. So use RBF, do what you got to do. Just be aware. Shout out to sponsors of the show, Nunchuk. If you haven't tried out Nunchuk, first of all, it's just a badass wallet.

But they just recently rolled out their inheritance planning and assisted multi-sig plan called Honey Badger. I did a full video on it. Awesome. It works with Tab Siner, Cold Card, and a ton of other awesome hardware options. You can set up an assisted multi-sig for the Honey Badger option. it is a two of four. They'll hold a key so they become a signer of last resort. And then you also set up inheritance planning so that you can pass on your sats without any worry.

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But this thing isn't a joke. Like it's got NFC. It's got QR scanning. And then it's got the SD cards as well, a dual SD card slot. lot. It can be powered by the USBC or by AAA batteries, I believe. And it has the QWERTY keyboards for quick entry of passphrases, things like that. And this full LCD screen, very excited to get my hands on one and do a video. But yeah, they have just all the best hardware

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They do also have a lending platform, which never is re-hypothicated. Done to full tutorial, check them out. These guys are awesome. Links are down below. But with that, let's bring in our panel. very excited to have them. I'll welcome to the stage, Rob Hamilton, John Gordon, Aaron Foster. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here.

I appreciate all of you coming to join me on a Friday evening. And let's do a round of intros. I'd love to hear who are you and what do you do for anybody that may be unfamiliar. Rob will go to you first. Sure, yeah. Hey, everyone. My name is Rob Hamilton, founder and CEO of Anchor Watch. We are a company that is focusing on bringing insurance.

to Bitcoin and it'll tie him to some of how we're doing that is why I'm bullish later. But just to say that excited to be here, I'm actually at Bitcoin Park this week. It's a great venue. Anyone who wants to swing by through Nashville, definitely come check it out. It's been a great time. Awesome. We're glad to have you, man. Very excited to hear more about that in a minute.

Let's jump down to Aaron. Welcome to the show, man. Give yourself a little intro. Hey, guys. Ben, thanks for having me. Rob, John. Great to meet you. Pleasure to be on the panel with you all.

I said, Aaron, Director of Business Development of Luxor, so primarily known for being a Bitcoin mining pool, making a splash on the ordinal scene earlier this week. We were focused on me and these software services to support the Bitcoin mining space within North America, but also worldwide. And it's a pleasure to be on the show and riff on the benefits of Bitcoin.

Love it. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here, man. I'm sure there's going to be many, many spicy comments given what's been going on in the past couple of weeks. We'll dive into that soon. But I digress. Let's jump lastly to John. Dude, good to see you. I got to meet in person for Halloween in Charlotte. But good to have you on the show finally. Can you give yourself a little intro? Sure. Thanks so much for having me, Ben. And good to be with you guys, Rob and Aaron. That was a great event. In Charlotte, we had a lot of fun. A little beef to start off the weekend and Halloween, good times in October. John Gordon, the Bitcoin Yogi, had a business development for crowd health, Bitcoin-based alternative to health insurance.

So I'm sure we'll get into the insurance space a little bit. We're doing that through health care crowdfunding, negotiating directly for bills, and stack and sat saving Bitcoin instead of paying health insurance premiums. So diving into healthcare and Bitcoin, I'm really excited to be here, super bullish about Bitcoin, and feel like the conviction is growing every single day. So excited to dive in. Awesome. Awesome.

Well, dude, I'm glad to have you. Glad to have you all. Yeah, let's dive into it. Anybody watching that is unfamiliar, this show is, why are we bullish? And so everybody brings a reason why they're feeling bullish, something that they're excited about, something top of mind. and it can be really anything that tickles their fancy. So we go by the three R's here.

Somebody's going to drop a reason why they're bullish. Then we're all together going to riff on that reason. And then finally we're going to rotate until everybody gets a turn. So reason, riff, rotate, simple. I'm going to get us started off this week. And so mine is kind of, it's a singular reason, but it kind of encapsulates a few things, which I, you know, I won't go too deeply into, but just as a general premise, I think we're kind of watching the Bitcoiner thesis in and around, you know, Bitcoin kind of sucking the air out of the room play out in slow motion.

And what I mean by this is we're getting a lot of the like I told you so moments kind of coming, especially. the beginning of this year and the end of last year, we've, we've had a lot of those where we say, of course, this was going to happen at some point or another. So like, you know, just I sent on a tweet yesterday where I said, you know, things that people didn't want to hear, uh, that turned out to be true. You are the yield. Self custody is important. Everything will be built atop Bitcoin and ETH staking is a security.

And we'll see more examples of that in the future. I'm sure of things that Bitcoiners have talked about and said, well, this is probably coming at some point or another. I'm sure we'll have many more check marks on that.

So, I guess the reason I'm bullish is again, because Bitcoin is kind of a unique beast when you look at it against the plethora of everything else. And we're seeing kind of a lot of things come to fruition. We've seen like this move against Cracken just the other day where everybody's saying,

well, I mean, whether you're pro regulation or not, you could kind of see it coming if there's somebody to point to say, hey, you know, is this an investment of money in a common enterprise with the expectation of profit based on the efforts of those individuals? I mean, if it ticks those boxes, then it will be treated as such. And Bitcoin isn't that because there's nobody to point to. And, you know, we see examples of this because currently, of course, we have. have people, and we'll get into this topic momentarily, I'm sure, but people fighting about how Bitcoin should be used, right? And right now, it's, it's kind of unclear as to like if anybody gets to say how that plays out. But that's, that's a symptom of there's nobody to talk to.

There's nobody to go to and say, we need to change this. It's kind of like everybody has to cohesively together decide on that. And if there's no cohesion, then it's kind of the status quo. So nonetheless, I'm bullish because it seems that up to this point, Bitcoiners have been very right in slow motion. And we're starting to have a few of those victory laps of like, well, there's another one. There's another one. So I'm going to open it up to you guys and I'll ask kind of do you concur and then if so, what are some of those other ticked boxes that you think might be coming down the line? Or if you don't concur, where do you think we miss the mark? So I'll open it up to anybody who wants to dive in.

So where we've missed the mark or where we're kind of seeing our thieves as being. played out right now, almost like a narrative check on Bitcoin as a movement. Yeah. I think it's interesting, like, the finer details I haven't paid too much attention to, but the stuff with Cracken, just as you kind of laid out the prongs of the Howey test before, offering a yield service is a security. It's not a, it's interesting because everyone refers to the Howie Test, they think, is it a test of, is your thing a security or not?

That's not what the Howie Test was about. The Howie Test was originally about Orange Grove. So it's not about is your thing a security? It's is you're offering an investment contract that is a security, right? That vehicle of like how you convey a relationship with someone. And very apparently the idea that you're going to get, you know, it comes off like a security. It doesn't have to literally be equity in something. And I think it's something that maybe more stringent compliance lawyers would have shot down ahead of time saying this is a problem.

It's almost though on the other side of it, frustrating the regulatory clarity and through enforcement of how the SEC operates in general. Because this stuff was going around for a while, I think, before Cracking got on board. Like BlockFi was the first one that kind of, we already knew this was coming when BlockFi got shut down on this. So it was, the writing was already on the wall. When people say, like, we just need, like, clarity. It's sometimes being used disingenuously because you know what you're doing. You just haven't been caught yet.

But in the same breath, to me, I just find it frustrating where, like, why would they move so slow? And they took this was the time to do it. And I think there's a lot of coordination. If you look at just Operation Choke Point 2.0, what they're calling it, just the complete shutdown of all of these, like, crypto banking services and like interaction with the Fiat world and Bitcoin. I view it as definitely more of a coordinated political effort. I think it's pretty apparent. And I'll pause there. I don't want to hog the room.

All good. Anybody else want to dive in? It's tough to kind of pinpoint regulation. I mean, I think we might be given these guys a bit too much credit when you look at kind of coordinating attack. To be, I guess my point of view, and this is just my humble personal point of view, is when you've worked for kind of state corporations and which I have in previous roles, they move very slow.

And I'm talking like in the realm of years. So I kind of get the sense when, come down to the Ethereum side of things where the, you know, the crack and the regulations come. I think it's just like, hey, who can we go after to show progress as quickly and swiftly? And as opposed to, you know, airing up the dirty laundry for ever for as long as it has. So where I kind of see them acting is just like low hanging fruit, like kind of like what we saw with those. I think it was a couple months ago about that exchange, the Bitslaudevich, or something like that they took down.

Like nobody had heard of that prior to. So I think they're just looking for like low hanging fruit to go out. after to show, hey, we're doing something in the public eye. I think where a lot of assistance needs to be done, and I think the whole industry, not just Bitcoin, but just the crypto industry in general, just again, needs that clarification, regulation and guidance. I think Jesse Powell sent out a pretty good tweet, I think it was earlier today just on say, hey, like, we're happy to comply or just give us some guidelines to go by.

and, you know, kind of don't, you know, don't like pull the wool over eyes with stuff like this. So it's, when I look at the longer term thing, I think there's definitely more regulation coming in play in the longer term. It'll be a little more, there'll be a lot more clarity around it for certain industry players, but where it's going to go in the short term, I think it's just like low-hanging fruit, like what we saw with the crack and stuff today coming out. Yeah, yeah.

The one thing I'll say about Gensler is it was interesting. One comment that he made a few times in different interviews and everything seems to be in direct opposition of one thing that Bitcoiners have been worried about is regulation in around self-custody because he encouraged it. He used the phrase, you know, not your keys, not your coins multiple times. And it's interesting to see the head of the SEC, you know, mentioning that while all having other heads of state basically floating legislation that would make self-custody potentially very difficult for the average person. So I don't know. Yeah, I agree. And having that Bitcoin thesis playing out and not only Aaron is it the low-hanging fruit, but it's those centralized entities, right? And it's those companies that have been collecting coins, right,

and that offering these services where they say you're going to get a yield. And I think everyone at this point with what happened in 2022 and all the failures there and seeing there's still probably more dominoes to fall. And with Bitcoin, he's afraid of saying or he isn't saying not your keys, not your Bitcoin. He's still using crypto. But I think we're seeing the difference between Bitcoin and crypto and understanding. it's a decentralized platform.

There's the ability, really the point of Bitcoin and why I'm so bullish too. And echoing, you know, Ben, why you're bullish, because you can self-custody. That's the beauty of Bitcoin. You can hold our own wealth ourselves and 12 words in our head and all the amazing tools that are out there to self-custody in the different ways that individuals get to decide what's best for them. But I think we're seeing it's not best for the individual to, reintroduce that element of trust with your coins and knowing that there can and will be this

you know, sort of crackdown coming. Do you think, and I recognize that we've kind of honed in specifically on this, this singular story, but do you think that this changes significantly the dynamic of how these exchanges function in terms of, and maybe if clientele stick with them? because like the major draw tended to be, you know, the flashy lights and casino vibe that you'd get from it, right? It was like, oh, you know, deposit here, get your yield, trade. This went up. This went down.

You know, your notifications of like how much the market is moving to encourage you to trade here and there and everywhere. But when that goes out the window, do you think? it results in more people self-custody and maybe less people speculating on some of the BS out there? I think that's the benefit of some of these stuff coming down, right? Like it opens up people's eyes to it. You know, the Celsius stuff, the Block 5 stuff. You know, I think, I don't know the stats offhand, but like, I mean, that created a ton of

hoddlers just natural, you know. Probably some of the people that you wouldn't even expect that don't want to admit it, right? Everything's in cold storage. I know, you know, admittedly for myself, all of my stuff is in 100% cold storage for the first time probably in about five years, you know. Which, you know, it was definitely eye-opening. You know, you kind of apply some of the shockwaves that have gone through the industry, whether it's a block-by thing or Celsius thing. You know, even on the Bitcoin mining side, you know, we see people even looking at decentralizing some of their mining stuff because they're looking at some of those like external risks and what could come down in the future. So it's it's naturally a good thing.

You have these booms and busts and it kind of refocuses people's attention to what's important. And, you know, self-custies obviously being one of the most important things of that. You know, something that luxur is specifically being who we are in the mining pool space. it's something that we encourage our clients to do first and foremost on the mining pool side, which is quite interesting when you start to look at user behavior there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, if anything, these lessons and, you know, all these points that Bitcoiners have kind of brought up through the years being ticked off at that list of, you know,

maybe that was a good call. It is driving people towards better behavior after touching the stove. So, yeah, I think it's just as a point there, Bitcoin goes through these cycles of boom bust traditionally. And what you typically have happened is some fraction of the people who are burned go towards the Bitcoin side. Yes. And to your point about like, is this going to end? No, there's going to, it was ICO's last cycle. It was yield this cycle.

It was going to be something else next cycle. And this is just a continual data poll about how, you know, holding your own keys. not being a position where you're the yield for someone else to make a lot of money. There's just the idea that it's just it's a journey. All of this is a journey. So while I believe there is people, there are people who kind of migrate over to the side of the fence and holding their Bitcoin, you're still going to have most people who are going to find the next cycle, the next type thing. And it's inevitably going to happen.

And I think part of our job is just education and being able to bring people along that journey. because it's a very difficult concept in sum to try to digest Bitcoin in all of its different facets. The idea of holding your own money is a very foreign thing for people. And there's a lot of cultural pressure in general to not have that mindset. So it's just a gradual journey that we should all be expecting. Knowing full well next cycle, four years from now, we're going to be having the same conversation. And it's going to be some sort of crazy thing. And we're going to be like, how did they all miss it?

But then like we're just going to be able to incrementally. grow our numbers. It's a slow and it's a long-term oriented movement. Yeah. Who has kids? I don't want to docks anyways. But it's kind of like for those of us, sorry John, for those of those of these young kids, you're just like, don't do it, don't do it. And then, you know, I feel like that's like the Bitcoin, you know, whether you're maxed or whatever, but that's the Bitcoin kind of scene. And then they do it. And then, you know, they come kind of crying back to you. And then, you know, there's an educational moment in there. So for us, I feel like it's like it on the kind of three to four year kind of cycle, but very similar to having kids.

Yeah, very similar to dealing with four-year-olds, right? Yeah. And interestingly, I think this cycle, too, and the question that hasn't been answered for the platforms and others is there isn't an ability to unstake your ETH right now. So out of these platforms, it hasn't even been programmed. So there will be more people that learn the hard way. I think that, you know, may have started to go down the rabbit hole but haven't, you know, fully made that distinction.

and now it's been made easy to explain, you know, here's the difference between proof of work and proof of stake. And this is what's happening if you're proof of stake. People, especially if there could be a run whenever that ability is made to truly store your wealth in an actual, you know, time chain. That's a fascinating point, specifically with all of the regulatory lockdown of the exchanges. The exchanges were the largest, like, stakers. And now there's, there may very well be, I'm not sure how you unwind that necessarily, if they're not allowed to offer yield anymore. That becomes a massive cost center for those exchanges.

It's actually somewhat ironic, I think. It may have been Nick Carter. I forgot who said it on Twitter, but the idea, though, that if Cracken just, like, offered this service and they didn't, like, pass it on to their customers, it would have been fine because it wouldn't have been a common offering of, like, you know, joint gains.

The exchanges are going to have to really work on that. And it's very interesting in Ethereum that a lot of capital and time was put into this solution of proof of stake. And we already saw it centralized. Maybe this is a hope that they could have some fractal sense of decentralization. But I'm sure that the devs are going to be pushing out a bunch of hard forks in the new future and kind of continually tinkering with it. So we'll see what the narrative reset is next.

But it's a really good point, though, about these exchanges, their role in the system was very centralized. And now they are no longer going to have that leverage by gaining access to the protocol in exchange for passing around yield. I mean, it does, at least for the time being dampen the cantyon effect that would have taken place with the exchanges. But also, the moment that, you know, they can unstake, how many of those people that were just staking through the exchanges because it was easy and they didn't know how to do it themselves are then not going to go in stake? And so, like, does that result in like a mass dumping of, of Eath at that point? you can no longer state. But you can't unstake. And you need 32-Eath.

And you need 32-Eath. You need 32-Eath. So people were sending like three-Eth to an exchange and staking. They can't even access it. So even if they wanted to, like they have to go through a lot more convoluted security schemes to try and like do that.

Yeah. Yeah. Should be that'll be another tick on the list, I suppose. So you see that coming down the pipe. Don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. Yeah.

So nonetheless, we'll cap that topic. there. Thank you for indulging me on that. I got to give a shout out to a couple of people in the chat here before we do a rotation. First of all, yellow's here. Red Bold runs through my veins. It's Friday, LFG. And I got to give a shout out to a parenting win here on Daddy Duty tonight from Edgar. He said my seven-year-old daughter created a received QR code for a few thousand sats this week. First time, proud Papa. Hats off to that parenting win. Good job. But nonetheless, we're going to do a rotation. Actually, Rob, I'm going to jump to you first. And I'm just going to cue you up with a simple question. Why are you bullish? Why am I bullish?

I am bullish because of Mnyscript. Mnyscript is something that actually came out of the Blockstream team, Peter Will, Andrew Polstra, and later Sanket in 2018. The idea here is that Bitcoin, and I'm going to keep it, moderately technical. I'm not going to get too deep in the weeds, but Bitcoin has its own smart contracting language called Bitcoin Script. It's actually a language Satoshi invented when he wrote Bitcoin. And what Bitcoin script is, think of it as the actual instruction manual for how to spend a UTXO. So if you have money somewhere, and the very basic ones we all know are like

a single sig, or you have a multi-sig, right? And those are actually represented in little stack elements from a computer science, the computer science like mindset, programming framework. So what Mnyscript does is Mnyscript allows us to kind of use the larger toolkit of Bitcoin opcodes. There's 256 of them. We only in average use on data, there's like 50-ish, depending on what you're doing. These are things like time locks, which are used in lightning, you know, Opcheck multi-sig. They're like they're all bucket of these things. And what the research team did, they were able to kind of create little modular Lego bricks and you could actually chain interesting conditions together.

So one example would be a two of three multi-sig, right? One that we have today. You know, let's say the three of us are holding keys. I'm a customer somewhere. I hold one key, maybe BTC sessions holds a key, and Aaron holds a key, right? If you two could run off with the money, that would be a problem for me. What's interesting in Mnyscript is you could actually set up key hierarchies where you could actually have one person required to sign and then it's one of the other two.

Additionally, you can do really interesting things like time locks. So you can say after, even before I've talked about time locks, just the idea you also can do and statements and or statements. So I can say this two of three must sign and this three of five must sign. Very interesting concept where you can start doing and changing the model of way to just have custody and access to Bitcoin. Time locks are another layer because the moment you start thinking about like, well, this is really crazy.

Like what happens if I could hit by a bus and I'm not able to access like he's anymore. A time lock in a very simple sense, a concept that's been thrown around for a long time in Bitcoin is a decaying multi-sig. The idea, let's say I have a five of five. And if I don't sign for six months, it becomes a four or five, three or five. And it kind of works its way down for like a redundancy sake. And these are all things you combine with each other. And it makes it really, really exciting about the opportunities we're going to be able to have and how we are going to be able to custody Bitcoin in new involved ways. And it's something that I've been spearheading for the past couple of months.

It's integral for what we're doing at Anchor Watch. And just to be clear, like, Mnisccript is open source software. I'm building a lot of developer tools that are going to help others be able to understand and use this more effectively. And actually, I'm using a lot of the work from the Bitcoin Dev Kit, the BDK team, who was here this week in the park. And Alikos, Danielle, Steven, like they are Thunderbibank. They're all incredibly smart devs working on a very hard problem of taking a software stack

and being able to make it so that if you want to build a wallet or you want to build some sort of technology with Bitcoin, you don't have to start all the way at the beginning with the really hard complex cryptography. You can pick this up. You can start using it for your specific use cases so you can build the rest of your experience and not have to worry about maintaining a large stack of wallet software. So that's at a very high level manuscript is something that I'm incredibly bullish about it's great for our insurance use case because we're distributing across multiple institutions which allows us to have more robust security models yeah so that's why i'm bullish that's uh that's super i love the the the intricacy you can get into there sorry go ahead no fork no fork

required just want to make that clear this is no fork required for this yeah yeah yeah this is this is no fork yeah so i mean that that that plays into because i mean i was talking about nunchuk off the top of the show and they they do kind of like an inheritance type thing. So like that that mindset can play in there because right now they they the the inheritance key is is like an internal time lock type thing. You know, it can redeem like as a single signer at a certain point in time or rather like with them signing they'll sign with their key at a certain point time for certain people. but they are toying with obviously adding in like actual on-chamed time locks and so you could

you know have you know set your inheritance collection date like a year out and then update that time lock over time to extend it out as it gets closer so you don't get in a situation where you're you know something happens to you and then your family has to wait like a decade and a half to access the Bitcoin you can just kind of piecemeal it out but yeah. being able to incorporate that in a way where it's like it's it's a you know an x of x multi-sig until this point in the future at which point this singular key can then claim the sats that's that's yeah yeah a really powerful tool time locks are incredibly powerful but also you have to be concerned from a design space how do you make that accessible to users because you

don't want them to accidentally mess something up and lock away their money for a very long time what's really cool about relative time locks, which is one of the two types. So the difference is meet me in 90 minutes versus meet me at 3 o'clock. Three o'clock is an objective time. So you can pick an objective block height and that's when your lock expires. Or you can say once every 144 blocks, which is a day. Or let's say once every 100,000 blocks. This actually allows you to create a dead man switch in Bitcoin, a relative time lock,

because the time lock starts when you put money into the UTXO. So that's when the timer begins. So let's say you're alive a year from now. You want to refresh your security. You just do another self-send to yourself. And that actually allows you to be able to reset the timer. And up until this week, and I won't go into details, I thought this was going to be one of the ways we could start building a robust fee market

because you would have a lot of people who are self-custings, sending money back and forth to himself, like a lot to refresh their time locks. But what I will say is that it's just really exciting to have fun ways to play with Bitcoin. again, like to find new ways. I think we all kind of had like post-traumatic stress from all of the crazy defy cycles in 2017 and like everything was on ice. And we're finding interesting ways of being able to interact with Bitcoin that we hadn't previously considered.

And it's making, I'm really bullish just on the future. If you compare legacy multisig of what we have today, like going from single sick to multi-sig was a huge step function up in security and being able to like offer services and being able to like add value to people. who are holding their Bitcoin, going from like the legacy multi-sig to miniscript is going to be this additional stem function up to extend a very robust deep reaching ecosystem. And you're going to be able to do it for whatever use cases are. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to.

If you want to have very small minimal things, you can. If you want to get really involved with your custody, it's all up to you because these, this code is all open source and you'll be able to build this the way you want to. That's interesting. I'm wondering if any of this conversation, either for Aaron on the mining front, like payouts and all that kind of stuff, or John in and around like the, the, what you guys are doing with, uh, with, uh, crowd health. Like, is this kind of bringing, uh, use cases to mind? Is it like, or are you, are you,

well, yeah, I was going to ask that was actually going to be my question for Rob. Like what, I mean, obviously the inheritance planning, uh, sort of my business development minds going right now just about use cases for our users and stuff like that. But like what what kind of use cases do you see beyond just like inheritance plan and just sort of curiosity for my kind of simple brain. But like I could easily think of some, you know, on the mining side, but just sort of curiosity. Yeah. I mean, it's really integral for us at insurance. So at a very high level just to kind of call out here, there is a fractional reserve or illusory insurance today. You leave all of your money at one place at a custodian. They charge you a lot of money. And in the event they get hacked or

they lose the money, they don't have enough insurance to actually cover their entire cost basis of what they're holding. It's pennies on the dollar in the event that some of these larger custodians, like, have some sort of problem. And for me, being able to think about it from a mindset of having multiple institutions distributing risk, the reason why it's uninsurable, by the way, just from an insurance perspective, is all of the risk is concentrated at one place, the company holding the keys. You can have crazy security systems, multisigs all around the world, but it's all one company. They all roll up to one officer and director, board of directors. And that centralizing force is toxic for insurance. You can't have it all sitting at one spot. And that's what miniscript's

going to be able to do. You can do distribution of keys. And as I mentioned earlier, you as the customer, have a two of three. And then maybe we'll probably have a two of three. And then maybe we'll have a two of three of different other people who have opted in to be participants and signing that. And it's, I find to be a huge step function because I've been spending a lot of time talking to institutional capital multifamily offices, hedge funds, portfolio managers. They don't want to allocate more to Bitcoin because there is no insurance. It's a very big reason if you're any sort of institutional money. They're saying, listen, it's already part of like my alternative asset bucket.

And if something goes wrong, I can't have that go to zero. So de-risking capital is such an important function in how you're able to kind of grow the capital markets in general. And that's not just Bitcoin. That's just everything. It's health insurance. It's a property insurance. Like that's how it's actually large part of like the founding of America was underwriting the risk of sending the exploring ships overseas was being able to because if you were

if you were ultimately like a moderately wealthy person, you would, you know, try and like send a ship off to get spices. And if that ship sank, you were dead like you were broke. And so insurance was this huge like way of unlocking things. So it's going to be a really big upgrade to Bitcoin just in this digital golden asset. because gold can get insured, Bitcoin should be able to get insured too because it's even better. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, really the use cases for institutions and for businesses

to feel more comfortable in holding their own Bitcoin. So I think a lot of that's been outsourced two third parties because of that risk issue and being able to have more situational flexibility with Bitcoin and multi-sig or multi-sig within multi-sig and who gets what keys and when. And I think that timing aspect too, obviously we're really. living in a world where there's digital nomads and people switching jobs and moving around. The economy is super fluid. And who holds those keys to Bitcoin from an organizational perspective is super important.

So that's really exciting that those miniscripts continue to be built in easier and more flexible, I think, so that you can really have an open book for potential customer institutions and what works for you. And it will get very personal. And they might have their personal stack, too, as you're saying, as an alternative investment, but making it easier for, you know, institutions to really hold it on their balance sheet in addition to the FASB, the accounting updates that are coming down the pipeline as well. I think you'll see more and more of that. Yeah, like the way I think of it is like on our side is like for an easy use case, It's just like now that like larger and larger, speaking about Bitcoin mining in general,

you know, there's larger and larger institutions getting into the space, like larger and larger miners. During bull runs, there's obviously a lot more USD value in Bitcoin as an example. So there's a lot more call it USD value at stake for a lot of these corporations. A lot of where we're immature as a space on the Bitcoin mining side is just like role-based permissions, custody solutions, right? That was kind of what came out of, you know, the call it the 2020, 2020, 2021 kind of run up. But when you start to look at, you know,

miniscripts as an example, I think that provides a huge benefit to some of these more sophisticated guys getting in the space. I'm thinking about Alex Brammer over at Tallinn Energy and then those guys, right, where you basically have a nuclear facility and understanding the complexities of a facility like that and how much, I don't use the word regulation,

but how much controls are in place for an organization like that, you know, that's a solution that we implement, which would kind of suit their hierarchical structure, right? So it's not going to be just like two guys that have, you know, potentially access to that account or custody account. There's going to be a little more, I guess, mature in that space, right? And one of the guys I love talking to is Camstrom over at Unchained Capital.

He educated me quite a bit on like the inheritance planning. Sorry, Cam, I got to call you back. I know, just for my own personal stuff. But it's, you know, it's fascinating to watch because until you see somebody fight through some of the stuff that's out there, it can be really eye-opening as to just how basic some of the custody solutions are out there. So the miniscript idea and what you're kind of building out is like super fascinating.

I feel like where we would be in like three to five years, an example, like that would be like commonplace with the ability there. rather than just like, you know, two or three multi-sig, which was, I feel like groundbreaking in like 2017. But if you can layer this on, like, that would be fantastic. So. Yeah. I was just going to say, so what has to happen for this kind of stuff to start being accessible to your average person?

Yeah. So Ledger, hardware wallet supports the biggest one. Ledger already has support for it today. So I already have like full functional working demos that works with Ledger. Sal over at Ledger really pioneered. pushing this forward and having this enabled. I was on Citadel Dispatch last month and Rodolfo was in town and Rodolfo was saying that he wasn't really thinking about, like it wasn't anywhere in the near future.

And then three days after the mining summit, he tweeted out that they'll be adding it. So Cold Card is already working on adding it. Yeah, Rodolfo was also here this week at the Bitcoin Park if you were watching RHR earlier today. Yeah, like it's, I was kind of having a fun time ripping him on how he thinks. flipped on that. But hardware wallet supports a really big piece. And then on the higher level two, just I view it as developer tooling to actually getting more people in the space. I don't want to be the only person building on this. And there's a lot of low hanging fruit from a technical

side of what I'm navigating right now. And I've actually been working on just pushing all that code out and trying to make it more available to be able to get people to like touch and play with this stuff. That's going to be a really big piece so that the user experience can get dialed in. that's another really big piece is just because I technically can conceptually get it working on a screen, my co-founder Becca will look at it. I'm like, hey, it works. It's like, look at this new feature. And she's like, it needs to be like a normal person.

He's going to look at this, Rob. So you're going to need to go back and do that again. Right. So it's hardware wallet support. It's, you know, getting additional, just like the developer tooling out there in the user experience. Those are going to be like, but it's so exciting. These are all brand new, like, design, like decision problems that we have in Bitcoin.

and it makes it really interesting to kind of work in a new frontier and kind of like playing around with that opportunity. And ultimately at the end of the day, it's going to be the best for everyone. And like my favorite use case is the idea that you can set it up in such a way that you can hold a key, distribute a bunch of keys elsewhere, but the money can't move unless you sign.

Like that's such a powerful concept that you can have this massive fracturing and of like what it means to do custody. And you have like negative controls. Like a negative control being like, oh, I never like you can have a vendor. like I can never spend your money, but you can't spend it within this time lock window unless I sign off on it. Right. So they're not a custodian.

They're just like a toll gate making sure that like you're falling through all of your writing procedures. And then the one final piece I find really exciting here is that you're able to actually set this up with a series of decay multisix. So I just mentioned that negative toll gate. Let's say they become hostile. They don't want to work with you anymore. You could have a branch after a long enough period of time. I call this the sovereign veto where you just get to unilaterally maturedly matured your keys again. It's just like all of these different, like, and this is what's so exciting.

I've been working on this for the past couple of months and more people are starting to talk about it. And the ideas they're just starting to bubble up with what this is going to look like. It's going to make things really exciting. So three to five years from now, I see fully end-to-end great user experience interoperability from different like products and wallets and vendors too, because you don't want to have one single point that's going to be the only way you can use it because that's its own socializing force in its own right. It's going to empower users of Bitcoin, whether they are individuals looking for sovereignty. use cases like a decaying multi-sig to large complicated enterprise-level solutions from the insurance side of what we're building. There's just going to be so much opportunity.

And it's going to make it so much easier as the technicalities get ironed out and they dissolve into the background makes me incredibly bullish. Holy shit. I just realized there's going to be a whole industry of people that help set up what these are going to look like. I think of, you know, people that that reach out to me and say, oh, I want help setting up my hardware wallet or setting up a multi-sick. Imagine the, like, the consultants and the people that are going to help out, like, corporations setting up these, these miniscript or, yeah, these miniscript, you know, two of three and three of five. And if this happens, this happens and like corporate structures in and around this stuff, it's going to be a whole.

specialized, like almost in place of, maybe in place of or in tandem with like the legal side of things like writing out contracts. Now the digital like at the end of the day who actually owns these assets because you know, ownership is 10 tenths of the law in Bitcoin. So like it just. Absolutely. And just two things. One, we're doing that or like like in those conversations because we are holding the risk.

And since we're holding the risk, we want to have some. insight on like what is your setup that you're using, right? Because if it goes wrong, we have to pay you out. And that's, I view us as a skin in the game aligned partner, but you get to hold keys, not risk. And as an institution, that is such a great relief. And the second point, as a call to action for their overall industry, to your exact point, Ben, about like these like templates. I want to have like five to ten templates from different use cases that we all can like interact and understand with each other and have all of the Bitcoin like adversarial thinking sphere. poke holes in all of them,

and this as a community, can start thinking about what these generalized templates look like. And then you can actually even maybe encode them into a certain, like, BIP, where like, oh, I'm using a BIP 433A vault, right? Like, these are like the kind of, like I was talking about this early day

with the BDK team. Like these are the interesting design things, but it's wide open space. It's a full prairie at the moment. And there's a lot of really interesting things and ways it doesn't take out. Yeah, it's almost like that, again, like you get a legal template of like,

you know, whatever is some sort of legal agreement for your typical contract on on whatever you you just go and you pull your your BIP template for a particular use I think yeah that's where my head goes is like as simple as like giving my kid allowance at like you know a specific interval you know what I mean and then like yes to John's business right like the crowd health like you get you know there's so many cool implementations that you can do here but I'm just thinking about okay well if my kid doesn't do this then you know they don't you know the time lock won't happen so that's right And, wow.

I think it opens up, yeah, a whole new ballgame, whether it's crowdfunding or, yeah, you take out the trash and you get your 10,000 sats or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah, having that timing, I think just enables so many more use cases. I like the idea of having the templates. Rob and giving people something to choose from because sometimes it can be overwhelming. I think for an individual company, say, where do I even start and say, hey, this is where you can start. And then, yeah, really walk them through that process of here's how we can tweak it to situation. But because, yeah, I agree even being, you know, with Unchained and having two of three

and having someone there to walk you through it. Personally, you know, a customer is amazing, right? And to be able to have someone in sessions. I know so many people go to you for help and advice from an individual level and how to get set up because there are so many tools out there. But yeah, I think the user experience and design will be an important element as well. Yeah, there's a lot there. All right. Well, okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to, we'll round out this topic, very interesting. I think there's a lot. It sounds like there's a lot coming down the pipe and there's going to be, you know,

people are always like, geez, do you ever worry that you're going to run out of tutorials to do? Apparently fucking not. Sorry, Ben. But yeah, so, you know, I've got my work cut out for me and that's a good problem to have. So, awesome. With that, Rob, thank you for that topic.

Loved it. We're going to do a rotation now. And again, shout it to people in the comments or in the chat here. Keep them coming. I'm going to start pulling up some more comments here too. I just want to T-Gem in the comments was saying this functionality will be key for setting up internal controls for Bitcoin management, which is going to be needed more ad corporations look to actually incorporate Bitcoin into operations, setting up controls for a petty Bitcoin account who can sign off on spending at what,

limits, fund control by head office and branches, cash sweeps for creditors. Yeah, I mean, there's there's, there's, it's, it's wild. So yeah, awesome. But with that, we're going to rotate. I'm going to toss it to Aaron here. I'm going to tee you up with the same simple question. Why are you bullish? I was going to change my answer.

I'm bullish on Anchor Watch now. Shut it down. Yeah. So I guess where I'm bullish and kind of where we sit in the industry is on the Bitcoin mining side, we're kind of at a point in the cycle within the mining kind of sphere that we're seeing kind of a changing of the guards when it comes to new folks entering the space, you know, new fresh capital being deployed into the mining space. We see it obviously on the mining pool side, on the ASIC broker side, on the hosting side, and now on the derivative side. It's, it's, I guess, despite being in the bear market and despite being at, you know, 21K today, seeing that rotation kind of come through from color old to new is fascinating to watch. And I want to say real time.

It's kind of slow real time, but it is occurring. And it makes me bullish because there's, there is quite a few folks that had enough patience to wait over the past year, let's call it. And they've just been kind of lurking in the background, waiting for the opportunity. time to kind of deploy capital and a lot of those guys are starting to deploy capital in the space and that's exciting to watch it's great from a business development perspective as well but seeing that seeing the kind of the changing of the guards um is makes me excited for what's going to be happening and then you know call it late 2023 early 2024 in the mining space and that's just on the mining side that's just on the things that we can kind of measure but when you start to look at uh you know

To back up a bit, the best part of my job is I get to talk to miners and the whole industry every single day. And it's various facets of the industry. And that includes the services side of things. So there's a lot of kind of service-related companies that are engaging in the space, seeing where the opportunity is, which when I kind of back out from that, that's helping that whole, you know, Bitcoin mining space mature. When you talk about insurance, when you talk about taxes and accounting and all that, people are, when you start to engage with some of these folks, they understand it or they've been doing it for a while. So it's less painful to kind of engage with them,

you know, from a Bitcoin miner to a service kind of vendor side of things. And it's encouraging because when you look at the space two, three years ago, it wasn't like that, right? It was just like some shady guys with a bunch of noisy hot computers and, you know, probably illegal mining containers,

you know, trying to take care of stranded energy. So it's exciting to see where we'll be in another two. years or whatever the next cycle is in regards not only on scale but just as as a mature industry you know benefiting various levels of the stack when you when you look at it that way so i'll leave it there see where the discussion is but interesting i'm gonna i'm gonna open it up to the other guys first i want to dive in first because i i've been taking up too much of the mic but uh john or rob if you want to dive in questions comments go ahead yeah i think observing the mining space not

having really participated, but talking and being in a space and been up at Bitcoin Park and now in Austin and just seeing the demand response and the way that miners are able to step up here in Texas has been interesting. But yeah, I think you are seeing, it sounds like the shakeout and now more development, those that were more conservative and didn't kind of get out over their skis when we had the last peak in November 21, you know, are now able to get in at a, get miners at a lower price and continue to see the hash rate growing, I think, is super bullish for Bitcoin, despite all the setbacks in the short term last year.

So that's interesting to hear your perspective. And I think having seeing another merger this week, more capital being deployed, as you said, ultimately mining is security. Mining is really what's powering Bitcoin, you know, TikTok next block. So to hear from you and be interested to hear more what you're seeing talking to these service providers and who else is wanting to get. into Bitcoin and understanding that you can essentially print money now. You know, and it's a free-for-all.

It's the most competitive market in the world. And where is that stranded energy? Is it in the US or is it international? And then where is that political risk, I think, as well, where you're seeing certain countries, whether it's the miners leaving China now having to leave Kazakhstan or now in Paraguay, other countries where you thought there's a lot of potential for energy here, but getting rug pulled. So how do you kind of mitigate that risk as a minor too?

is really interesting. Yeah, it's, I mean, there's, there's, what we kind of see too is like, I call it the kind of like mining is the gateway drug into Bitcoin, right? Like I think people, when they start looking at Bitcoin, mining is one of the things that they connect with first, right? Because it's tangible, right? I say, okay, I plug this machine and I get X amount of, you know, Bitcoin revenue a day.

I mean, I can kind of feel, a touch and feel that where it's like, I feel like when you talk to a lot of OGs, that's kind of where they first started, and then they kind of go down that path and, you know, and end up where they do. Where it's really exciting and what we really see is obviously the engagement on the utility side. You know, they're starting to engage and actually start to look to attract folks to their various jurisdictions. I mean, I think this past week, we saw Dennis and the Stoci Action Fund in Mississippi and some of the stuff that they were passing there, you know, kind of on the heels of Wyoming, what they did a year ago now.

And that's encouraging, right? What's happening in Texas with some of the demand response stuff and some of the other states are taking notice of that and kind of up in their game when it comes to demand response. But when you look outside of North America and you start to talk to miners, it's very similar progression to what North America has had over the past, or sorry, yeah, over the past year and a half

since, you know, quote unquote, the China ban. is there just a couple years behind as to where we're at right now. And that's going to be encouraging and exciting to watch, you know, Dubai being one of those as an example. So it's always fresh and, you know, lessons to be learned from each kind of jurisdictions as you watch it grow. So super bullish on that. Awesome.

I have a few questions here in the comments, if that's all right. with you. There's yeah. So, so Tatum was asking about like, do you have an opinion on, on like,

you know, home mining if the industry standard keeps evolving towards industrial scale, do you think home mining kind of dissipates further or do you think it continues to, like, is there a future for home mining

is what he's getting at? Absolutely. Whether, you know, I think it's geographic dependent, right? So it'll always find the cheapest energy, whether that's in North America, South America, Europe worldwide. There'll always be home miners. They're just a lot more portable when you look at it. The problem with the industrial mining is in order to, you have to scale, but then now you're kind of become your self-centralizing yourself, and we kind of saw that

within the North American market this year, right? You got to a certain scale. Things weren't hedge properly and things kind of, you know, end up blowing up at the end of the day, unfortunately. But, I mean, the home miners kept going and then dispersing. So you kind of saw that migration of miners going from North America and South America. That's an example in some of these older equipment finding new homes in some of these other kind of cheaper jurisdictions. I guess Paraguay is probably a great example of that. It'll be ebbs and flows for sure.

but I don't think the home mining, you know, the home miners won't ever go away. They'll always find, like, unique and creative ways to, whether it's integrate with kind of current, you know, home heating systems or whatever and still mine Bitcoin. Like, they'll always be the most creative and entrepreneurial level of the bunch. And then usually what happens is those guys are the ones that scale into some of the larger mining farms, whether it's in the local geography or, you know, they look elsewhere. So that's generally where it starts. Like you, you talk to any, like, OG miner, and it's like, oh, I just started my garage that, you know, back in 20. 2017 or 2015 and now they have one of the largest mines in North America as an example. So that's Jim.

They have it starts. There's another one here that was asking about Texas, Texas. Like where are the miners? Do they tend to like, is there a certain geographic region in Texas that's, you know, tends to be minor dense or is it kind of distributed evenly? Any ideas there? West Texas seems to be the hot spot. And I'm no expert on the grid there.

I kind of rely on the miners to feed me the information there. But that seems to be the hotspot when you start to look at where everybody's kind of setting up. And I think that's just, I'm going to get ahead of my skis here, but that's just where the cheapest power due to something like the wind and the grid kind of constraints that Texas has. But that's where you kind of see majority of the large miners setting up. Interesting. Yeah. To Tatum's earlier question, too, about home mining, I mean, I'm curious if you'd agree with me on this, Aaron, is home mining may come.

You know, I think it'll begin to focus more on, you know, utilizing heat to offset existing expenses already. So like there's people that are retrofitting their hot water heaters with miners that are heating their homes with miners or hot tubs or whatever. Like if you can find a use for that heat that was incurring a cost previously, then you don't have to be, you're not thinking about is the minor profitable. You're just thinking about what am I am I offsetting the cost it was taking me to obtain this heat from another source? and if it's a yes, then it's a no-brainer. So you kind of hone in on the same type of economic incentives that you get on like oil and gas wells, where the like things that the gases that would have been flared are now being used to mine, where it's waste or it was perhaps incurring like a carbon tax or there was a cost associated with it

or there was a loss or it was just waste anyways, while that same kind of economic incentive can play out at home of, well, I'm offsetting the cost now. So yeah, you get into a situation where the profitability calculation is entirely different. Yeah, and that's,

I mean, that's a fundamental rule of mining, right? You're basically arbitraging energy prices. So whether that's a stranded substation in Ohio, stranded gas in Wyoming or North Dakota. Like, you're always going to have these entrepreneurs. And that's why I love talking to Bitcoin miners

because some of those entrepreneurial people I've met. Like, it's insane. Talking to like a group in the Middle East a couple of weeks ago, it's just fascinating to listen to these guys. Where are you, you know, and again, that's going to scale, right? So it's these guys developing his home, you know, like what Haley did over at Imperium Digital with the hot water tank.

that's going to scale. I mean, you hear about the green tech guys doing in geo bitmine doing greenhouses with Bitcoin mining and then starting to hear rumors about salmon farming and the Nordics with Bitcoin mining, which is just incredible. And like you're going to see all these like really cool use cases and that's going to scale and that's going to go big. And then before you know it's not just going to be a Bitcoin mine, it's going to be like Bitcoin mine salmon farming and all this other kind of cool integration stuff to kind

of diversify. Yeah, super interesting. It enables just a ton of creativity. And I've heard Rod mentioned this too, but having those products eventually be off the shelf, where you have DTC mining dryers or washers or heaters and making that accessible for individuals. Maybe it's harder in a city when you're in a high-rise, but for anyone that's in a single-family home or in a community where you can utilize in whatever that energy is in that locale or the work that needs to be done,

Bitcoin mining can be paired with that and enable more prospering for individuals. Yeah. And just because I haven't rifted anything on errands, very quickly, I was at the Mining Summit last month, and it was great to see a lot of people at Bitcoin Park that were working on this. And we talk about the institutional adoption of Bitcoin. We're thinking the asset itself, but I really think a lot of the institutional adoption happened in the mining industry with all these publicly traded companies last cycle. And you had a lot of capital come in, you had a lot of people push in.

and to like the thought around home mining, I think in the United States, just given the capital scale that's been deployed into U.S. infrastructure, it's going to be hard to compete with that unless you have some sort of specially unique edge. It's not going to be something that residential you're going to be able to compete on.

But I will say, you mentioned Dubai earlier, Aaron. I actually flew from Dubai. I was at the Satoshi Roundtable to Bitcoin Park. So I flew directly to Nashville. I still have not seen my family. And hi. Love you guys.

I'm still alive. I've been seen them in like two weeks. But over there in Dubai, if you're from Dubai, if you're a national, you only pay two cents a kilowatt hour for your power. It's all subsidized. So that is going to be the kind of frontier that people start messing around with. And they have so much energy grid capacity with the nuclear power plants they're building over there. It is an amazing opportunity. And I think we're going to see more of a global.

And I think it's really healthy for the sake of the network having this global distribution of hash rate anyway. There's what 40% maybe roughly in the United States right now. You're going to be able to have Bitcoin miners are energy pirates. They just go to where it's cheap and then they pillage it until it's no longer cheap. And I think what you're going to have happen is you're going to start looking at the global stage and thinking about where you're going to be able to find those edges. Yeah, 100%. Tatum, I would do unfeasurable things for two-kilon-hour power.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, barring anything else, I'll round out that topic there. There's so much going on in and around. I mean, it's so interesting to see the obvious marriage of the energy sector and the mining sector. I mean, really, they are one and the same. So that will continue to play out, I'm sure, for quite, some time to come.

I wanted to pull up one other comment here. A little bit, a little bit off topic. But Pepe is, is bullish on Rob's nips. He would like you to show me the nips. He has spelled it out many times in the comments. So, you know,

we can be bullish on nips. I know that it may be difficult to remove a normal clothing there. Well, swing by Bitcoin Park. Yeah. There's an after-hour show, I suppose. That's right. Yeah, you got to pay, you got to go to the Patreon for that. We'll, we'll see in there. It's on the only, only fans. It's actually only sats. I have that domain, only sacked. And I'm very, oh, there you go. Well, exactly. Well, of course.

No, no, sorry, sat sims. Sorry, I wanted only sat sims, though. I got sat sims. So you can sign up and be a sat sims. Pepe Chulo. There we go. There we go. Oh, and one last thing for Aaron, actually, outside of MIMS. Robert Smith was wondering, do you have any input on the IBM A6? Did you hear anything about them? I do not. Interesting. Yeah, I would be curious to learn more.

Yeah, no, I don't think, I was unfamiliar with that as well. That'll be another show, I suppose. They don't have chip fad plants. They don't have the chipfab infrastructure, right? So they're, anyway. Yeah. Unless he means Intel, but. Yeah, I'm not sure.

Maybe Intel. Yeah, if it's IBM, I unfortunately, I don't have much information there, but now you've got me curious. So thanks for ruining my Friday night. Yeah, yeah, there you go. You're welcome. Awesome. All right. Well, we're going to round out that topic there.

Thank you for that, Aaron. I appreciate it. We're going to do one more rotation. Again, show us to everybody in the chat. Keep up coming. But we're going to jump over to John. And again, last time of the show, I'm going to cue you up with the simple question. Why are you bullish?

I'm bullish about Bitcoin because Bitcoin provides a pathway to individual sovereignty. I think it enables individuals to truly experience freedom. So Bitcoin, I think really as a way of challenging individuals, helps you think about what is and is not important in your life, but also brings really a heightened awareness of self and peace of mind. I think it helps people become present in the moment, but also enables the low time preference. So now you can really think truly about the future. And I think for that individual sovereignty and that freedom, it's connecting 8 billion humans in the world for this in the network, where now we can transact with one another and exchange our services or products

or whatever value we want to provide to the world and receive that value back and really opening up to that world. So for me, I love traveling. And last year, this time I was actually living in Bali with my wife. and I was doing a yoga teacher training. And during this three-week course, we really dove into a lot of philosophy and principles of yoga. And as I was already along my Bitcoin journey in Bitcoin Rabbit Hole,

and really only found it, I'd say at the end of 2020 and then really digging in in 2021, I started seeing all the similarities there around individual freedom and being able to, just like in Bitcoin, you can always tap into the network. It's open to anyone. Well, you can always tap into yourself. and you can go deeper and understand yourself.

And going and interacting with Bitcoin, I think, with others around the world and seeing the different perspective, getting out of the U.S. or Western bubble was also key for me and seeing that individual sovereignty. On that trip, we also went to Zimbabwe and was orange-pilling some folks there. My safari guide, Mike, another healer and leader of a community there. And when you start getting into the principles of decentralization and having consensus mechanism to come to decisions, they understood Bitcoin right away. And when you, you know, see Bitcoin being adopted in places like El Salvador and also

visiting Bitcoin Akasi and Mussel Bay in South Africa, it's really empowering individuals to be able to have access to financial services and to be able to save for the first time in their life. And that's the peace of mind aspect. because you know now that you can preserve your purchasing power and the work that you've produced today to be able to get the goods and services that you'll need to live as a human being into the future. That can't be debased. That can't be stolen from you from anyone else.

And there's really an important concept in yoga called Dharma. And it's all about purpose. It's finding your purpose energy. It's having that passion for anything in life. and being able to have tools to be on that path to sovereignty, whether it's breathwork and meditation or nutrition and what you're putting in your body every day or the work that you're doing.

I think we've seen and personally interacting with the Bitcoin community in so many different places, you see that passion. You see individuals who really love what they're doing and have a greater purpose, not only to help others, but also to have that individual, you know, fulfillment and peace and knowing that, you know, you're in the right places, at the right time and helping others along that journey. So I think travel and Bitcoin and seeing the other communities too.

One last riff I'll have is I was just in Buenos Aires in Argentina and seeing almost living through when money dies. And you have just an outrageous 100% inflation rate in Argentina. The blue rate for cash if you bring dollars is twice as much as what the government will give you for purchasing power and had an awesome tour from Geronimo. who's down in Buenos Aires. And interestingly enough, they actually have a museum of the central bank to showcase all of the failed currencies of the last 70 years.

And it's just wild to see, you know, you won't necessarily notice it walking on the streets, but people feel that stress. They feel that anxiety of knowing that their fiat is going to be constantly losing value. You know, it's hard to, for us to fathom, but having that 100% inflation year every year and knowing that it's only accelerating that direction is incredibly distressing, I think, for individuals. So to be able to come back to Bitcoin and, you know, really why I'm bullish is that it brings power back to the individual.

It enables you to find that inner piece. And, you know, I think that it's just so cool to see all the different angles then and taking control of also your health. Right. And now, you know, with crowd health, we're saving in Bitcoin instead of paying high time preference insurance premiums. Right. So now in 10 years from now, if you have a surgery, you've got Bitcoin you've saved. And what is that? Will the doctor be willing to accept Bitcoin instead of dollars? Probably. I would think so. Or at least it's worth saving there because who knows if Medicare will even be around in a few years to pay for everyone's health care needs. And that's, you know, $4 trillion a year in the U.S. So I think just bringing why I'm bullish, I continue to add conviction, you know, each day. And the more I hear about. about the innovations going on and how individuals can add their own flavor and use Bitcoin and transact with anyone around the world and really what the Lightning Network brings as well. Just has so many possibilities that we, I think it's hard to imagine today, but we'll continue

to build into the future. I love this kind of journey of self-discovery. Bitcoiners often go on that I hear so often where it's, you know, you, you, you, So many people come to Bitcoin, or they just, you know, they hear about it a few times. And it's,

typically, especially in Western countries, that you come out of speculation, then you start learning about money. And then you start saying, well, maybe I want to save a money that won't get debased. And you've got maybe go down the Austrian economics,

uh, rabbit hole. And then you start learning about low time preference and, and extrapolating that out to other parts of your life in and around health, what you're eating, you know, how you're treating your body, exercise, and even building local communities. And, you know, I've kind of had that, like you're alluding to, that progression of learning all this stuff and then starting to tailor my life to those values and, you know, trying to eat healthy. You're trying to spend time, like actually, you know, making sure that I take

time for, you know, time for myself, time for my family, but also surrounding myself with great people in and around Bitcoin. And then also diving into building communities. Like I live on a Bitcoin standard now. You know, I'm buying my beef from a local rancher. I'm going tomorrow morning to pick up my eggs for, again, from the local person who has like 20 chickens and paying in Bitcoin. And so I'm starting to, again, like, it's very easy to just complacently sit back and, and just do the speculation thing. But I think more and more Bitcoiners are kind of going down the road of like you said, of self-sovereignty and exploring the various ways in which you can partake in that. And it's really unique to see. I have one other little thing I was going

to mention. You were just, you said you were in Bali last year. I, I, I got married in Bali in 2016, and it was like just as I started the channel, actually, like a few months afterwards. And I got married in Ubu'd. And did you go to, were you in Ubuid at all? Amazing. Yeah, we were in Ubued for a bit. My Yub teacher training was a bit east of there and then did another week-long training

in Ubuid as well. Did you happen to visit the little like co-working space called Hibood? Hubbood. I don't think so. If it's still around, I'm not sure. So I went there and it was, I think I had just missed, Andreas had done a talk there literally like a month prior.

And so I had just missed his talk and he was like obviously very integral to anybody that kind of got into Bitcoin early, probably watched a ton of his talks. But they had a Bitcoin ATM there and everything. And so I went in and I was all curious about it. I got to show everybody and say, see, it's not pretend. There's actual things happening. So yeah, no, I, there's a soft spot in my part for Bali.

I remember that at the time, because it's the Indonesian rupee is the currency there. And at the time, one sat was one rupee. And so we hit. That might be a parody. There you go. But I can't recall. I'd be curious, I've got to look it up afterwards, maybe while other people are chatting to see what it's at now.

But yeah, nonetheless, that's really cool to hear. So maybe I'll toss it to Aaron or Rob if you guys want to jump in, comments, questions, whatever. I have a question for John, actually, Sir Rob. Just being like kind of traveling to a bunch of different countries, being a nomad a bit. I've been, unfortunately, having kids a little bit more tied down. So very jealous. But like kind of where do you see or how have you, I guess, let me back it up,

when you have talked to folks about Bitcoin in some of these countries, like what has been the reception, understanding, you know, the currency debasement and the hyperinflation and stuff like that. And the second part to that question is how have you seen them react to the hyperinflation? How have they have adapted to that, right? Because it's not like an overnight thing. in some cases, it's normal right thing, but, you know, it's not just, you know, normal one day, 100% the next day kind of thing, inflation. So I'm curious on your, on your, um,

yeah, yeah, definitely a lot of thoughts on that. And I think it can, it depends a lot on the location. So for example, and how is traumatic, you could say that, you know, how quick the experience was. So definitely for, you know, those in Zimbabwe that experience hyperinflation, And very quickly, you know, I bought a $100 billion, you know, Zimbabwe bill, you know, is a kind of a token and said, oh, this expires in three months too. So their savings were basically stolen overnight. So they, when you've had that personal experience of losing your entire savings, Bitcoin resonates very quickly, I would say. And then also interestingly enough for the more rural community, they like or they were fine in that time because they were the ones producing food. So all of a sudden the government's going to them and paying them a lot more and their food becomes that much more valuable.

And they're used to storing value in cows and goats is usually how they're saving for the future when they do earn more. But I think for those locations that it happens slower and that theft of inflation and stealing people's time doesn't happen overnight. You don't see as much or as quick of the adoption. I think I saw in the comments too about Argentina's adoption. And despite 100% inflation, don't see as much adoption as you would think is what I learned from, you know, Geronimo because people don't touch the stove as closely or because also 40% of people are completely living off of government subsidies. And there is this disincentive to work. And people are so

used to that aspect that they maybe haven't found Bitcoin yet. So that's what I think the education perspective comes in. And usually if you can meet people where they are and listen to their experience. You know, there's always something to talk about and that's where, you know, I think the experience in Bali too is interesting from, you know, COVID perspective then at being shut down for a couple years. Ben, when you were there, the Bitcoin uptick was huge. And I think you had a lot of circular economy going on in Bali and then when 90% of their

economy is tourism and that was shut down. And then now the government could go in and say because the rupee is failing too and their biggest bill was worth about $7. It's like $100,000 rupee, just like in Argentina. And now the biggest bill in circulation is worth $3. Right. So you have these bills that aren't worth much, but then they tell the shop owner to take down the I accept Bitcoin and people forget or lose the ability to use it.

I wasn't really spending any Bitcoin in Bali. When if I was there three, four years ago, I probably would have been able to. So it's interesting, too. I think you kind of see this ebb and flow that at least momentum can be slowed. by government that's more adversarial and protective of their currency. And that's where it comes down to individuals showing. And I think even in, I love to get over the Philippines. They have a Bitcoin retreat coming up in March.

And Bill was presenting when we had a media meetup recently at the Commons. And they've onboarded like 250 merchants in a month or two. And they're showing why Bitcoin is really better than their current way that they can transact digitally. So bringing that home for individuals and making it easy, I think. But yeah, you'd, so that's where gradually then suddenly too, but you still have 200 Fiat currencies around. It's crazy. So we're still just that early. I looked up what, uh, what the rupee in terms of Bitcoin was worth when I was there. It was around a whole Bitcoin at the time would have been worth about. That might not even be.

I'm curious if they're basing it on current price. I think it was around eight, eight, let's see, one Bitcoin would have been like eight million stats, eight and a half million sats. Now, oh,

sorry, eight and a half million rupees. And now it's 328 million. So, 30, eight or 39 times. roughly, I think. So yeah, interesting.

Wild. John, what was the phrase you made before about like the determinants like a sense of purpose? Like a Buddhist principle was it? Like what's that called? Dharma. Dharma. Yeah, that resonated with me as a concept. Just the idea of I think that's a lot of the movement of Bitcoin in general.

Everyone finds meaning and working on this very hard problem. and I was having a conversation earlier today with someone and having an observation that culturally movements that are more free-focused and there's less friction, it's more of an open kind of like general like momentum tend to have a higher likelihood of winning. And this is like why end of great fight between the United States and the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union had so much, this is actually from Jordan Peterson, the idea like this enforcement cost of maintaining that rigid structure in society becomes like, sand in the gears and it requires more and more effort to try and maintain it, whereas if you have a freedom focus system, it can actually self-organize and be able to be prosperous, right? That's kind of like Bitcoin's movement. I think it's a lot of people who have a sense of Dharma and focusing on this problem. And that's why cycle in, cycle out. There's still people here

are all working, building, thinking about these really hard problems. Because it gives us a lot of meeting in a certain way. And about a year now, I haven't started Anchor Watch. And every day I get to wake up tackling the exact problem that I chose. And it's something that gives me. me, I tell people like, you know, how cows work, like you're working long hours and genuinely, like, work is play in a real sense of that it's a real joy to be working on really hard problems that could have a lot of impact and make the world a better place and help Bitcoin adoption. It's a, you know, it's a very exciting time, you know, in this industry. I think there's a lot of great things to be coming over the next couple of years. Yeah, 100%. There's, there's no shortage of interesting things coming down the pipe.

I don't know if I, I don't know if I want to add too much there. I don't know. John, do you have any other final thoughts that you want to throw out there before I kind of get everybody's final thoughts on everything? Or does anybody have any other final questions on this topic? Yeah, just say, you know, it's a path. It's a process. And I think finding that alignment and that purpose as an individual and connecting with

others is always available. So it's in and it's voluntary. I think to your point, Rob, that what ends up winning in the long run is something that people are voluntarily doing on their own and you can always tap into it. And just like we're always breathing and throughout the day, you may not think about it as much. It's another way to tap into how you feel and what you're doing and how you move about the day. And if you feel that purpose or you feel that tug to get into the Bitcoin space. There's always different opportunities and it's as easy as a DM on Twitter or see what people are doing out there. So continuing to show up, I think, in alignment and continuing to provide other people that courage to go for it. Awesome. I love that. All right. Well, I'm going to round

out our final topic here. I always like to finish the show by doing a quick round of, I know, John, you just got out a few of your final thoughts, but we'll do a quick round of final thoughts. And if you have a recommendation for something that you think people should check out, and when I say a recommendation, it can literally be anything that's top of mind, whether it be like a book, a podcast, a video, a website, an application, a device, a life lesson that you've come across that you think would be useful for the people, in their Bitcoin journey or just in their life journey, as it may be. So I'll kind of get us started.

You guys can kind of mull over, you know, where you might want to send people. But yeah, I mean, final thoughts here. There's a lot going on. There's a lot being built. There's a lot of interesting things coming down the pipe, whether it be, again, like the, you know, Bitcoin kind of sucking the out of the room, whether it be with interesting things like miniskcripts, you know, in and around the mining space, all of these different tools that are kind of being built in and around Bitcoin, how efficient it is, and more eyeballs coming to it as people realize that it's kind of quite different from everything else

that claims to have improved upon Bitcoin. and it sends us down these interesting kind of personal growth pathways as well. So I'll just say to people, again, there's never a shortage of new things to learn, keep learning. I'm going to say as my thing to send people to check out today. I think I'd love people to dive into. different ways of securing your Bitcoin, just familiarizing yourself with some of the options out there and kind of the versatility that's there currently. And then kind of juxtapose that in a few years of some of the new options that come down the pipe. So, you know, right now, I'm sure a lot of people watching this probably utilize a hardware wallet, single sig.

And that's kind of their thing. And maybe they've only dealt with a single hardware wallet. But take a peek around and just kind of see the difference that has maybe kind of manifested since you first got your original hardware wallet. Look at some of the other options out there, see what there is. And then even try using your hardware or however you securing your Bitcoin with different interfaces. Like if you're on a ledger, you're on a treasur and you're using like a proprietary application,

like Ledger Live or Treasure Suite, you know, download Sparrow Wallet, see what it's like to use a different interface that gives you even more information about how you're using Bitcoin. Or Sparillet or Nunchuk or whatever it is, just investigate and learn a little bit beyond, take a little step outside your comfort zone and just kind of see what's out there. And then again, it'll be fun to look back in a few years and say, wow, I didn't even know about all this stuff. then look at all the new stuff that's gone, that's kind of come down the pipe since then. So, and if you're looking to get started, again, if you haven't used a separate interface, go download Sparrow Wallet.

I think it's pretty badass. They just had a great update as well. You can now use things like TapSigner on your computer if you get an NFC pad for your laptop. It's now, tap Siner is now available on desktop. So there's lots of interesting things happening. And I encourage you to pursue them. So with that, I'll rotate over to Rob. I'll say if you have any final thoughts, feel free to drop them.

And if you have a recommendation as well. Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Ben. Final thoughts are if you're interested in learning more about this, you can follow me on Twitter. It's one of the main things I'm tweeting about at Rob Oneham. If you want to learn anything about what we're building at Anchor Watch or Try It Wallet.

which is what we're building on top of miniscript. And always open, DM's open if you want to reach out, have any questions. Like, love thinking about this stuff. Love hearing other people's thoughts and ideas as we're continuing to build. And for something to check out, I'm going to suggest Bitcoin Clubhouse. So Clubhouse was a social audio app that came out during the pandemic. It's actually where I met all my initial investors as well as my co-founder. and it's these really great social audio app that you get to have conversations like this.

And sometimes we're talking about sports. Sometimes, you know, other random debauchery is going on. It's a really great time. Often that's where American Hoddle is hanging out. He just came back to Twitter so it's less novel than that. But it's basically a radio show with him and everyone else just kind of riffing on politics, Bitcoin, Macro, whatever you have it. And it's a really fun time.

And like you don't have to get up on stage. You can listen to the audience. We don't record the rooms. Here's what it is. And Hoddle had this observation. Twitter spaces is the conference. Clubhouse is the bar after the speakers are done talking. So if you want to have a fun time and everyone, like it's a knife fight, there's no like, it's my turn to speak.

It's a whole knife fight. And everyone's having a fun and a good time. And if you want to have a little bit of that vibe of like being at the bar at the conference, check out Clubhouse. That is 100% the vibe that I get. It's kind of few and far because like I get so many notifications from it. Like it's just I have it on an iPad and it's like if I'm, you know, if I've designated, okay, like I actually have some time to kill, then I'll pull that open. But yeah, it's a different vibe from like charade its bases for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Awesome. Great recommendation. Let's jump over to Aaron. Final thoughts, recommendations. Take it away. Yeah, first of foremost, thanks for, thanks for organizing this, Ben.

Appreciate it. It was a lot of fun for a Friday night. I want to say Twitter. It has always, you have to kind of filter through the noise. That's how I kind of have been paying attention to space since 2017 and the typical podcast circuit. That's how I call myself a boomer in this space because I feel like I am some days, but especially talking to Rob and miniscripts and stuff like that. So, you know, obviously with Domas coming out and then Noster and stuff like that, that kind of filters through some of the noise, which I've been playing around with as well.

But when you kind of look at, you know, filtering and all the noise, depending on where you want to focus, I'll admit I'm not the most technical person in the world. Super interested to learn, you know, but, you know, I would go to, you know, your YouTube channel, Ben, to kind of learn a bit more about the technical aspects for a simple-minded guy like myself. But for the folks that are interested in the Bitcoin mining space and understanding that, I recommend checking out, you know, I'll do this shameless plug here, the Hashrate Index blog that we put out. In addition to hash rate index.com, there's a lot of kind of mining resources there. We have a pretty awesome content team for anything Bitcoin mining related. So if that's the space that you are interested in. But that's the beautiful thing about what we're doing currently in the space that we operated

in, whether it's yourself Rob on the technical side, Ben, yourself on the educational side, and John, you know, yourself on, you know, integrated Bitcoin on the more services kind of side. It's awesome to see, and there's always space for somebody to kind of come in and take this thing to the next level. And that's the, for anybody that spent time in this space, it's never dull. There's always something going on. You know, so it's exciting. And that's what keeps, you know, myself feeling young.

You know, I just can't keep up with it all the time. But I think my encouragement for anybody that's new and listening, I think you just kind of have to start small, pick a lane that you want to learn, try not to learn everything all at once. Otherwise, you'll just drown right away. So, you know, kind of pick your passion and go with it, and you'll be surprised as to where it leads you. And in addition to that, ask questions.

You know, whether it's Twitter, any of these kind of social stuff, reach out. The amount of times people have DMed myself asking questions or I've DMed some of the bigger guys in the space, they're always responsive. And it always blows me away that I can have a conversation on a call it a Twitter spaces or maybe a clubhouse with some guys, you know, that are pretty high up in some of these large, whether it's Bitcoin mining companies or, you know, other kind of service. service areas. So it's, it's, um, you don't typically get that in a typical corporate, uh, America. So take advantage of it. Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. And John, I'm going to jump to you one more time. I know you might have gotten out a few of your final vault already, but you have recommendations or anything else you want to add. Go ahead. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me and super fun discussion, guys. And hope to meet, uh, you all in person to,

at one of the Bitcoin meetups or events in the future. I think my final thoughts really being find your purpose energy. You know, Bitcoin is energy. And we all have that energy inside of us as well. So notice and be aware of, you know, what makes you feel really alive. And also along the lines of what Aaron was saying is having an open mind. So being willing to take in new information and starting somewhere, not being overwhelmed, sometimes by the noise, but also having to unlearn maybe what you were taught in the past,

whether that was in school or university. I know from a lot of the Keynesian economics that we were fed, you know, that's, you know, prevailing narrative and then realizing, hey, there's a whole other school of thought here. And there isn't a right or wrong. It's priorities. And it's how you choose to put your energy and, you know, your value towards. So my suggestion, my recommendation for people is to go. Well, first of all, start reading.

That was the biggest thing for me is there's so many books out there that help me understand. Bitcoin, not only also not being technical, but understanding how it works, but also from the philosophy perspective. And even starting with the sovereign individual and realizing how prussian that book really was, being written in the late 90s and seeing it now finally play out with this digital nomad thesis, reading layered money, you know, Nikbatia, energy and civilization, back with smell, and understanding our human needs and how that relates to Bitcoin. Seventh property, Eric Yeags, having all these different books and resources out there that,

depending on your background and what you already understand, can take you to that next level. And then when you get there and you're feeling good, you'll go to your local Bitcoin meetup. And if there isn't one, start one in your area. I'm a little spoiled here being in Austin now. There's so many meetups and amazing things going on all the time. but even if you're traveling or going somewhere else, go on Twitter, go other places and see, is there a local meetup here? Meetup.com has a lot of those resources as well that I feel like a lot of Bitcoiners are

organizing on. So I think DMs are always open and want to have those conversations. I think that's what's awesome about Bitcoiners. We have an open mind. You want to learn and create a better world. So get engaged is really my suggestion if you're just listening to this. and yeah sessions your videos have been super helpful for me and even getting my lightning node set up so I'd love to connect open up channels with others and you know keep creating that network together

awesome well again great advice the more you can get involved with people around you the more you can interact with other bitcoins and learn from them the better so gentlemen I'm going to say thank you so much for being here a lot of fun great conversation really enjoyed it And yeah, I'll just finish by saying you're all welcome back anytime. Thanks, Ben. Thanks so much. Cheers, guys. Thanks a lot.

All right, everybody. Thank you so much for being here. Give all these guys a follow. Their Twitter handles are listed down below in the show notes. And you'll be able to find everything that they're up to, what they've been talking about during the show. It'll all be down there. So, yeah, go give them all follow. All awesome guys.

And yeah, lots, lots covered this episode. So I appreciate all of them. Before we wrap up here, of course, I just wanted to say, again, like, subscribe, share, all those things. Super important. They help get this content in front of more eyeballs. I just did a little update to my website. So if you're looking to send people to kind of get started in their Bitcoin journey, because there's probably, you know, in the coming years as we kind of cycle through new people coming

into Bitcoin. They may be curious. So I've got a getting started section on my website. And it'll take people through like resources. John was talking about various books. You mentioned the seventh property by Eric Yeh's excellent, excellent books. So I've got a bunch of suggestions on there of where people can go, how to use Bitcoin wall. Everything is like linked there. So people can actually go and check out and like just one by one tick off all the different things you can do with Bitcoin. And then it goes from the basics all the way into like the more intricate like how do I set up a node. How do I, you know, coin join and do all that kind of stuff and inheritance plan. So all of that is there.

It's on the website. Also on the website, there's a ton of other stuff. I've got, again, you can link directly to the YouTube. I do one-on-one sessions and then in-person workshops, which by the way, if people are going to be down in-money, Bitcoin Conference. I hope to see many people there. I'm very excited. Mrs. Sessions will be joining me again.

This is our second Bitcoin event. Actually, when we were with John down in Charlotte. That was her first ever Bitcoin event at Halloween, which was a lot of fun. But I will be in Miami, very excited for it. If you're going, if you haven't got tickets yet, then B.tc.C. slash conference, you can use code BTC sessions,

get yourself 10% off. And I'm doing my cold card, workshop down there. If you're going to be down there, if you haven't tried the cold card yet, and you're looking to do so while there's still tickets left, although getting close to sold out. So you can just check that out. That's also at the website, bTCsessions.ca. And yeah, it's a four-hour deep dive.

We're going to be going through the basics so you know how to set it up, back it up, do air gap transactions and recover. But also we're going to be diving into some of the more. advanced features so that you know everything that you can get out of your cold car. So we're going to be covering that again, four hour deep dive in Miami. It's going to be on the Wednesday, the 17th of May. So be sure to check that out. If you're in town, maybe you want to attend.

And this is not yet listed on the Bitcoin Conference website as a satellite event. As soon as they drop that, it will be. And I'm sure it'll be sold out by that. So if you do want to get in there, maybe check it out before everybody else finds out about it. And yeah, we'll wrap that up. Thank you guys so much for being here. Again, like SubShare, you can hit up the sponsors down below, Nunshot Coin Kite, Start 9, and Hoddle, Hoddle.

And if you really liked what you saw it, you can always drop me a Bitcoin tip on my strike page. You don't need strike to use it. Just go to strike. Dot me slash BTC sessions. Type in any amount you want. Hit the tip button. You see a lightning invoice or if you tap to the right, a regular Bitcoin QR code. With that, I am out.

Have yourselves a wonderful day or evening. I'll see you guys next time for. your daily session. We have ETC sessions. Bitcoin is a few money. You can't stop it. Get yourself some Bitcoin and hold it yourself. Pure to pure exchange.

You know, people are going to organically come to it and gravitate towards it, especially in the world we're living in now. It's incredible. It's a great tool, and I can't wait to see it proliferate everywhere. Huddled by Bitcoin.