BTC Sessions - WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Tyler Campbell, Phil Geiger, Sahil Chaturvedi ep298

Episode Date: October 19, 2022

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What is going on, everybody? Welcome to the show. Another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? And today, we have an Unchained Capital takeover. We've got a handful of gentlemen from the Unchained Capital team. We'll do some intros momentarily. It's going to be a good rip. So very excited to have everybody here.

Of course, this is live. Anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill here. We'll do it live. Okay. We'll do it live Do it live I'll write it and we'll do it live

I can write it and we'll do it live If you have not already Like subscribe Share all those things Help a ton getting this content In front of more eyeballs I am Ben with the BTC sessions This is your daily session

Before we bring in our guests Let's take a look at where we are in the market right now We're sitting at 19,18,000 $182 per coin. A single U.S. dollar will pick you up 5,21313 sats. 91.35% of all Bitcoin have been mine. And in terms of fees, pretty low right now. High single digits, seven sats per byte next block, but anything, if you're willing to wait a little bit, one sat per bite, probably do the trick.

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Yeah, check them out. Slash BTC sessions. You get a little kickback at checkout. With that, enough my rambling. Let's get the gentleman in here. We've got Tyler. We've got the mysterious shaded gentleman that I shall not name yet. And then we've got Sahil.

So gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Let's do a quick round of intros. I usually say, who are you and what do you do? but we all know that you guys are from the Unchained team, but maybe you can elaborate a little bit on what you do for the team. So let's start with Tyler. Can you give yourself a little intro?

Yeah, of course. I love the Bill clip too at the very beginning. That was cold. I guess I should say that was Bitcoin. But my name is Tyler Campbell. I'm a VP of Concierge at Unchained Capital. Work alongside both Sahel and Phil, but mostly Phil with the concierge onboarding side of the business,

getting folks all set up with Bitcoin Private Keys and Multisig. so they can secure their generational wealth and also make use of other financial services we offer. Awesome, man. We're glad to have you. And we met over tacos in Miami at Tekeza. Shout out to John who owns the restaurant. It was an excellent choice for your staff party. Sahel, good to see you, man.

Yeah, good to see, man. Sahil, I'm a product designer on the untrained team, primarily working on self-custody vaults, that kind of. stuff. Also co-hosts of the Austin Bitcoin Design Club. So if you're in Austin, come through. Awesome, man. Well,

glad to have you on the show. And maybe we'll bump one more down to, Phil, I'm really happy that you made this happen because I used your avatar and you committed to recreating that image. So maybe give yourself an intro, man. Well, Ben,

thanks so much for having me back on the show. I'm Phil Geiger. I'm the managing director of Unchains Concierge services. And I've been so bullish about Bitcoin this week that my laser eyes have just been going crazy. So I've been having to wear these glasses the past few days. I'm hoping that I'll be able to take them off without blinding everyone. But it's Formula One week here in Austin. It's the kickoff of my mountain bike race series.

So I'm incredibly bullish on Bitcoin right now. I'm going to try to remove these, these glasses. Hopefully I don't, I don't blind or kill anyone with laser eyes. All right. We're good. I was worried you were going to like X-Men Cyclops us or something. My camera went out. Well, guys, I'm super happy to have you all. People watching, if you're unfamiliar, this is why are we bullish?

And pretty simple premise to the show. Each one of us has a reason topic that we're currently excited about in Bitcoin. And on this show, we go by the three R's really easy flow. Somebody's going to drop their reason for being bullish. Then together, all together, we're going to riff on that reason. And then finally, we're going to rotate until everybody gets a turn to talk about why they're bullish this week or, well, I mean, whatever time frame you choose. So I'm going to get us, I'm going to get the ball rolling here.

I'm going to get us started. And so the reason I'm feeling bullish this week is Bitcoin's circular economies. And I've spoken about this before, but I'm particularly bullish on this right now for a couple of reasons. And I've mentioned this in previous shows, but I feel the early pushes on Bitcoin merchant adoption were maybe the method of attack was maybe a little bit misplaced. And what I mean is in the early days, everybody's like, oh, we got, we need more merchant adoption. We need everybody accepting Bitcoin. But in pushing so hard for that, you got people accepting Bitcoin that they didn't give a shit about Bitcoin. They saw it as a marketing schick.

Oh, I'm going to accept Bitcoin. And then for some reason, there's going to be a bunch of people kicking in my door to buy all my stuff. But they weren't, they didn't want the Bitcoin. They were instantly converting and dumping it. and there was no like a lot in a lot of cases there was no like real benefit for them in particular to accept it because they were typically like west companies in western nations that it was pretty frictionless for them already um and then they had the added friction of converting out of it so it was just kind of a misplaced effort what what i think we're seeing now is different i think you're seeing people gravitating towards the good money people are accepting Bitcoin because they want Bitcoin. They want to accept it for their goods and services. They want to step outside of the legacy financial system, be more self-sovereign, and save and sound money. And so I'm seeing a totally different approach. And I'm also seeing us being more ready

because the last push kind of 2014, 15, 16, in around there, I mean, we were just going into kind of the block size wars and the scaling issues that were going to come up inevitably. And even though you can get on-chain transactions through pretty cheaply right now due to a variety of factors, inevitably there will be a need to not be doing everything on chain obviously and if if we had succeeded early on in that push for merchant adoption we would then be faced with oh shit we got to tell everybody that doing what they did before the past five years or ten years yeah that's that's not going to work anymore it's going to be too expensive and you're going to have to use this other thing. But I feel like we're now in a good position where we can start to say like, hey, as a merchant, here's lightning. You're accepting Bitcoin. Like it's it were better prepared and future proofed with lightning.

And the people adopting and accepting Bitcoin are doing so for better reasons. And so in particular, the reason that this came to mind for my reason this week is, uh, I'm going down to Charlotte and that plays into it because on the Friday night for I'm going down for Halloween, which is going to be a blast. I'm super stoked for that. So Bitcoin Charlotte is just putting this event on. On the Friday night, they're having a beef initiative dinner. So anybody unfamiliar with the beef initiative basically dude from Texas, Texas Slim is basically front like heading up this initiative to put together cattle ranchers from first off across the U.S. but now kind of around the world and connect people with their local ranchers to buy beef directly.

And that kind of self-sovereignty movement is also playing into a lot of these guys are being taught about and are beginning to accept Bitcoin. And so he's going to be in Charlotte doing a dinner. And these guys are doing, again, you can get boxes of beef. around the U.S., meet your local rancher, kind of start creating relationships there, cutting out a lot of middlemen here. But when I first looked at this, I'm like, oh, that'd be great. And then I looked, oh, there's nobody nearby in Canada.

I'm in Alberta. We're kind of known for a beef. I was like, ah, I wish there was an Alberta rancher on there. I tweet out, hey, if there's any Alberta cattle farmers in and around that are looking to accept Bitcoin for for beef then I would love I shit you not three minutes later somebody replies yo buddy I'm a cattle rancher just outside your city I would love to accept Bitcoin for me I am buying a quarter of a cow immediately after I get back from Charlotte so like by next Tuesday my freezer that I bought specifically for this in my basement will be full of beef

that I buy with Bitcoin from a local rancher. And I'm so, so excited about that. So, I mean, that was part of part of the reason I'm very excited. But I'm starting to go beyond that. And right now I use a lot of tools to, because I do live on Bitcoin. I earn Bitcoin. One of the things I'm trying to focus on is to find more local resources. and goods and services that I can connect to and directly purchase stuff with Bitcoin because

those people want Bitcoin. And so in Charlotte, I hope to, I'm doing a presentation. I'm opening up, doing the opening talk, but I hope to encourage a lot of people there to link up and start asking each other, well, what do you do? Do you have a business? Like, would you accept Bitcoin for that? You're at a Bitcoin meetup. it might be a good time to mutually kind of find people where, oh, we can transact together.

We can create a relationship together. The other thing that I'm doing as soon as I get back is in my city in Calgary, I'm going to be hitting this meetup YYC Bitcoin. It's been going for a long time. It's awesome. I should hit it much more often. But I'm going with the mindset of purpose. trying to find people at the meetup and do exactly what I just described.

What do you do? What do you run a business? What kind of services or goods do you offer? And obviously, do you accept Bitcoin? If not, why not? And can we change that? Because I genuinely want to find, I want to become more self-sovereign in the way that I can't be disrupted by traditional

payment rails. I've already gone pretty far down that mindset and that line. But I think dealing locally with people that I'm creating individual relationships with and paying with self-sovereign money can just really bump it to the next level. So that's why I'm bullish. That's why I'm excited. And I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts on this topic. Your experiences thus far, what you think is needed, where you think we're going.

So I'll just open it up, whoever wants to dive in first. Yeah, I could jump in real quick. Yeah, I think that's a really good thing to be looking for is local people you're already transacting with to try and get them to accept Bitcoin the better money, the more private money, the faster transacting money. But I think it could be, you don't want it to be a barrier to spending Bitcoin in some ways. So maybe a different perspective to add to what you're saying is like, you can always be

spending your Bitcoin. If you're someone like me and maybe you've been, if you already have 100% Bitcoin, you could think of spending Bitcoin using the dollar as like the dollar is just kind of moving the Bitcoin through space. So don't let it discourage you like if your local rancher or if your grocery store is not accepting Bitcoin yet. You can still spend your Bitcoin every day. And then now they kind of have a choice. You and your counterparty have a choice to either use these legacy slow inferior payment rails or you can be like, hey, this is, you know, I can send you money faster. There's less fees.

It's more private. So I wouldn't let it discourage you from spending your Bitcoin, but you still want to go out there and like, she'll, if you can, she'll likely. Yeah. Yeah, I 100% agree. And you're right. Like I, and I do, right? Like I utilize services that are kind of like those stopgap measures until,

until people inevitably gravitate towards the better money. But like here in Canada, we've got bull Bitcoin. So it's very easy for me to pay all of my bills in Bitcoin. I'm so jealous about that, Ben. Yeah. We don't have that. It's super awesome. Although I think bit refill, you can, like, I don't have access to it because I'm not in the U.S.

But I think you can pay bills. Correct. Again. Yeah. So it is KYC, but that's, it's still at least an option. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, ditto with full Bitcoin, right?

Like there's there's KY, it's KYC'd once you're going through those payment rail. So which is my then inclination to try and find as many roads possible to just transact directly with individuals. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like it's the difference between today and the first time I ever tried living on Bitcoin, which was in 2014. Pretty different. A lot more options nowadays. So, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Phil, Tyler. Sorry, keep going on it. You had something else. Well, I was just going to jump in and say, like, I think, I think your approach is the right one, which is go to a Bitcoin meetup, find out what other people do, connect with them, purchase from those people, right? Like, I think back in 2013, 2012, 2013, 2014, it was maybe a little bit too early. Like, people, people didn't, a majority of us didn't have our net worths in Bitcoin at that point or like a significant percentage of our net worths in Bitcoin. and going out and trying to kind of orange pill the merchant, I think is a really tough strategy

because it's almost like handing out a flyer. It's like, hey, I've got this thing that I'd love to give you, will you please accept it, versus the opposite, which is like understand why this is my form of money and I'm saving in it and then connect with like-minded individuals who understand that Bitcoin is the strongest form of money and just, you know, build the circular economy that way. I think Lightning Network is really cool for that reason as well. It's like, you know, I think nothing has gotten me to spend more Bitcoin than Lightning Network. It's just so easy.

And it's like I can actually spend Bitcoin, you know, faster than whipping out a credit card and entering, you know, credit pins and all that BS. You just scan something and purchase, you know, any good or service. So like in Austin right now, we have. the Austin BitDev's coming up this week. And a lot of times we'll have, you know, bartenders. And they started accepting Bitcoin lightning payments as tip tips. And I don't carry cash around anymore. And so I've been able to tip people in lightning. But yeah, the days I think of like going out knocking, you know, door to door to try to orange pill people to be able to accept Bitcoin, I think that's just a really tough approach. And the easier approach is just to help

educate people why they should be saving in Bitcoin and then let them come to that realization on their own where it's like, oh, I need to be accepting this. Like the ranchers are starting to understand that if they're accepting, you know, dollars or Canadian dollars, their efforts are being completely debased by someone potentially thousands of miles away sitting in front of a computer and raising cattle is, and it takes immense amounts of, of, of, of, work. And so you need a form of money that you can save in where your work is not, your effort is not going to be debased and all the value that you've provided to other people is not going to be confiscated. Yeah. I think as we get near the holidays, maybe it's an important

thing to think about as you're, you know, wanting to go out and purchase holiday gifts or stuff for family and friends. Wherever you're purchasing those gifts or those items might be an opportunity for you to kind of ignite that circular economy. I know last year, not to ignite any flame wars, but I did buy some cast iron pans from a Bitcoin Twitter individual paid a Bitcoin, which felt pretty good. Got to, of course, slip that in there as I gave my family members and friends of their gifts. But I think a couple of points that are really important. I agree with Phil. The, like, actually going to your meetups, whether it's a bit devs or a local meetup or a conference even. You know, a lot of us were just at tabcom or even at Bitcoin Amsterdam, you know,

striking up conversations with these internet friends that you meet in in real life and asking, you know, privacy taken into consideration, but what do you do? You know, and especially if you're local, how could I help you out? And then even if it's not necessarily paying outright in Bitcoin, do you accept tips in Bitcoin? Is that something you'd be interested in? And then with friends, too, this is something that I've been doing more and more just because it's so easy. You know, if my friends and I are using Venmo. We've been used to doing that for whatever. It could be a American football, fantasy football league. It could be paying each other back for going out for, you know, dinner and drinks or whatever. Just offer to pay them back in Bitcoin, right? $20 with a Bitcoin

here and there. Then they kind of start to get pulled into your psyche and how you think about saving. And maybe, you know, like you said, then they get pulled into actually asking the deeper questions or why do you save in Bitcoin? How can I get set up? How can I, you know, hold my own keys and a two of three collaborative custody multi-sig, you know, eventually you get them there. And then I guess the last point that I would chime in on earlier this summer, I was down in El Salvador as a part of the my first Bitcoin diploma kind of rollout. There's a first wave of students that graduated with their Bitcoin diploma. And as far as a circular economy goes, I think the curriculum in that, in earning that

Bitcoin diploma down in El Salvador is really interesting. it was, you know, kind of formed on this basis of what is money. You know, it's all in Spanish, but the translated chapters are the classes that they go through in the curriculum start with, what is money? What are the harms of fiat debasement? Why do we want to be saving in Bitcoin? And then these brilliant students, you know, age 15 through 18, learn about transacting Bitcoin, recovering Bitcoin seed phrases, using Bitcoin wallets in a way where then they go tell their friends and family members who are the shopkeepers, who are the merchants, and maybe they start to ignite this little bit of educational wonder, like, okay, legal tender,

this, legal tender, that. Let me just accept a little bit of it and maybe self-custody it, right? It's kind of that seed from which it's all going to grow. So I think gradually then suddenly, of course, with this circular economy stuff, but somewhere around the world, maybe not in the West, maybe it's in the global south, the suddenly is happening, a whole lot quicker. And so the circular economy, we could be seeing it there before we see it here, which would be also bullish. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

On the meetup front, the one other thing I wanted to tag in here is when you're at a meetup and you're conversing with people and you're trying to find different opportunities there, don't just think that you're directly interacting with the people that are just, just in the room there because every one of those people guaranteed their family and friends. Think of that individual as like the Bitcoin guy. And they're going to be interested at some point. And all of those people have jobs and potentially businesses and goods and services that they can also offer. And that person's going to remember like myself right now and I'll just put it out there,

I'm looking for a poultry farmer. I'd like to be able to purchase eggs and chicken breasts and stuff like that directly. from somebody local that I can pay in Bitcoin. And so I'm literally going to this meetup next Tuesday with the intention of, at the very least, planting seeds with everybody there that will think, oh, I know a chicken farmer actually maybe that would be interested or down the line might be interested. So like all of those things, I think are, it's important to at least speak about it so that people, so you plant those seeds and people will recall later on and say, hey, that guy

will probably pay you in Bitcoin for that thing. He was actively looking for it. So yeah, go out. Chat. Find people that are like-minded and find ways to interact with each other. As you were just talking there, I just thought of something too. It's like, at least here in Austin, we're only two bit devs away from Thanksgiving. So, In the U.S., you know, Thanksgiving, where everyone gets together with their massive extended family and sits around a table and talks about Bitcoin. And so, yeah, we want to make sure we have like at your local meetups, you have two more opportunities to really give those folks the orange pill or equip them with the orange pills that they can take home for Thanksgiving. And then on top of that, definitely important to find a poultry farmer in time for Thanksgiving. Yes.

It's sort of Thanksgiving related, you know, themes there. Yeah. A full open source contribution for listeners out there might be a, you know, like the yellow pages. We need an orange pages, right, for your given city. We need a list of Bicklin work. Not great for Opsack, but. Fair, fair.

Sahil, I think I cut you all before. Was there something that you were going to throw in there? No, yeah, just a quick comment. I was like, I was going to say this is a long game. So, you know, the orange filling is a long-term low-time preference activity. You know, people might not get it right away. It could probably take years. So years of ups and down.

So keep at it. That's awesome. And congrats to Ryan, who did indeed buy his Thanksgiving turkey from a local poultry farmer with sats. I'm a little jealous, but we already had. So Canadian Thanksgiving is actually in October. I didn't know, like, tangent here. I didn't know why, but it's actually because it's. It just gets colder here so much earlier that it's supposed to be like the celebration of harvest.

And obviously the further south you get, the more likely that's going to be November. But here they're like September's over. Oh, Jesus. Better do it quick. So, yeah. In the orange pages, Ryan can be our poultry guy. Yeah, exactly. And somebody in the VTC pins in the chat brings up a good point.

the Orange Pill app. So I was chatting to the guy that's creating this app. But basically, Orange Pill app is trying to be the Orange Pages. So it's more or less going to be able to connect you with other Bitcoiners. And for me, that becomes very, very useful in trying to live on a Bitcoin standard.

So yeah, that should be interesting. I think that's launching in and around Pacific Bitcoin. So keep an eye on that. anyways guys so i'm going to wrap my my topic here because obviously i don't want to take up all the time we're going to do a rotation everybody in the chat keep those comments coming and i'll pull them up as i see him uh and give this a like and a share of course get more eyeballs in the room but i'm going to rotate over uh tyler i'm going to give you the mic and i'm going to ask you simple question

why are you bullish man just just one reason that that's bearish in and of itself just one reason while I'm bullish. No, I'm bullish this week and this week, probably in particular on this topic coming out of TAPConf and seeing everything that was going down in Bitcoin, Amsterdam. I'm bullish on educational opportunities for aspiring Bitcoin contributors. And, you know, language is selected there quite carefully, not just engineers, but also marketers or designers or individuals who might not know the differences between Python and C++. But everybody else, because we're at this point now where there's not only local meetups, which we've all been discussing.

There's also regional bit devs. There's conferences. There's workshops. There's stuff like tabconf that took place recently. There's also these kind of educational efforts, like summer of Bitcoin, was something that I recently kind of learned more about summer of Bitcoin.org, I believe, is where you can find it. It's similar to like a chain code residency sort of, what I believe. There was a summer of Bitcoin 2022 where university students were kind of exposed to Bitcoin in different form or fashion,

whether it's engineering or design-related efforts. So Base 58 is another like incredible example of this. There are resources now where if you're an engineer or your product person, you're a designer, there's resources where you can go and network with individuals, learn about this stuff and contribute your talents to the Bitcoin industry, right? Like the same time when we're building this parallel economic system, we're also kind of building like this parallel recruitment engine for people who we want working on Bitcoin. If you are a talented individual coming out of university or even high school,

and you are infatuated with Bitcoin and you want to learn more, you're no longer going to Angel List or cold emailing founders on product hunt. You have now all of these opportunities to go and possibly locally network with people. So I'm really bullish on that. When I was in Atlanta for TabCom, I attended the Atlanta BitDevs. And the beginning portion of the BitDevs was actually hosted by they had some individuals who went through the summer of Bitcoin course or the summer of Bitcoin kind of 2022 cohort.

And it was pretty inspiring to like, hear about their experiences, how passionate these young individuals are. There was a young woman up there was like 17 years old. She hadn't graduated high school yet, but she was already into the design space in the Bitcoin world. It was just really, really cool to hear about. So bullish on that. And yeah, I would love to hear Phil and Seiles and in your opinions as well.

Yeah, I guess I'll go ahead, you go ahead. I was just going to say in a similar vein, like, you know, shout out to Gloria Zao. I mean, she came out of nowhere, I believe, from school. It could be wrong. And just kind of rocket ship up, like literally contributing to Bitcoin Core. So that kind of stuff is just unbelievable to see a bunch of young talent actually contributing to the future of money. So yeah, that was my comment. I wanted to show one other thing that you shared, Tyler, prior to the show that I thought was kind of cool because I went and played with it.

but it's the try bitcoin.satsy.dev. Oh, yeah. I was going through like my Rolodex like what I wanted to mention. But like something like this, right? Like you can learn the technical aspects of Bitcoin because there was, you know, a brilliant engineer in the space, put this together in an open source way, all in the name of education. So super, super cool.

Shout out, Tracy. Yeah, it's, it's pretty wild. Like seeing, oh, I, you know, I just generated a public and private key like that. It just kind of shows you some of the commands and what's going on in the background. Also, don't use this public and private keys, everybody, because everybody now knows them. But nonetheless, it shows you a little bit of the background of what's actually happening when you're using a Bitcoin wallet, which is super awesome. So, yeah, go try it. Try Bitcoin.

satsy. dot dev. S-A-T-S-I-E dot dev. Anyways, I thought that was really cool. But Phil, comments. Well, I unfortunately missed out on TabConf, but I'm experiencing some serious fomo because Tyler and Sahel both went and had a great time.

One thing that Tyler mentioned that I'm actually particularly bullish about, and this isn't just because we have Sahel here, who's a designer, is the fact that we have many more designers in Bitcoin today. So I think up until maybe just a few years ago, Most of the Bitcoin tools or products or services we might be using that are Bitcoin native. So you're actually interacting with keys and wallet software. Very few of them had the resources to hire true design teams. They're very early startups.

A lot of the design teams get hired by the larger corporations that have a little bit more funding. But a lot of those design teams have been working on tools that are not Bitcoin native. So something like Coinbase, for example, has, I'm sure, a massive design team. But it's not really Bitcoin native. You're not interacting with Bitcoin or keys or anything like that. So the fact that we are seeing, you know, like Sahel's Bitcoin Design Club pop up, the fact that we have designers like focusing on how to make, you know, batch spending better, how to make receive addresses look and feel, you know, easier to use.

All of the tools that are native to Bitcoin and, you know, require keys, I think they've definitely needed some love because historically the ux has been user experience has been much more targeted towards technical people so I think just in the last few years we've started to see a really nice sleek UIUX for tools native to Bitcoin yeah just to add to what you said Phil I think a big part of that so part of that too is like coinbase they're basically fintech products right you're not really using Bitcoin. But part of it, I believe, is also a lot of designers.

I would say most designers are into the crypto world today are mostly interested in other crypto products. They're into Ethereum and all at Salon and all this kind of stuff. But we're starting to see a lot more of them slowly migrate towards Bitcoin. And I think once that happens, we're just getting started. It's going to explode. And all these tools we use like Sparrow and a bunch of these tools are going to start feeling a lot more polish and a lot more user,

friendly. Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day with regards to design, working closely with Sahel talking about this stuff. It's almost kind of like, you know, the past, I don't even want to say 10 years because, you know, 2012 like tools are so limited. So maybe even the past five to seven years, been very Bitcoin native. You can think about it like like left brain Bitcoin design, right? And maybe where we're headed now is this more right brain Bitcoin design where it's creative, it's user flows. Does the user feel confident navigating this? What can we abstract away? I think it's really, really cool. Yeah, I can definitely attest to things are looking and feeling a lot better with a lot of different interfaces because, holy shit, guys.

It was interesting early on. I mean, and it's funny because now I do gravitate towards the techie stuff, but like when you first dive in and there's no opposite. options for things that are polished and look nice and are easy to use, you just kind of have to deal with it. And now you can get to even something simple like Moon Wallet, singular balance for both lightning and on-chain. I mean, that had not been done prior, right? It's an intuitive thing to include, but it just wasn't there because maybe I don't know why. There just wasn't focus on making it happen. Also, the technical back end to that is probably a little difficult.

But we're seeing things develop in a way where it's very, very nice to deal with. things like Nunchuk Wallet are starting to look nicer on the side of being able to interact with multiple devices. And Lily Wallet is actually another very pre-looking interface when dealing with your hardware. I think there's a lot of great developments. There's a lot of great interfaces that are beginning to get to the point where maybe they're not as intuitive as like the average

oh I have an iPhone and I have an app kind of simplistic my grandma can do it type interface but they're getting to the point where your average person who has a smartphone and has grown up with one

isn't going to be super confused by it. They'll have a pretty decent knowledge base just in being able to set up a wallet for the first time and back up their keys. I think it's getting to that point where it's not nearly as scary as it used to be. Yeah, I think it's important to remember that, you know, aside from this group, like this small group of Bitcoiners that are, we think about Bitcoin 24-7, 100% of the time,

like whether you're an activist, like a dissident type person, or you run a business, or you're just saving Bitcoin, most of these people aren't, and they shouldn't have to think about Bitcoin 24-7. Like they do their job, they provide value in the world, and then they save money in the form of Bitcoin, and that's it. So a lot of these experiences should be designed that way. And of course, there will be tools for power users like us, but I love the growing, the increasing number of tools that are designed for the everyday person.

Yeah. Yeah. And I just think about it like Bitcoin today, we're still in a lot of ways like laying the infrastructure, right? There's still layer one enhancements that are coming out like taproot. Layer two, the Lightning Network. It's becoming more and more functional and it's growing. I think it just surpassed 5,000 Bitcoin on Lightning Network.

It's growing rapidly, but we're still very much in the infrastructure phase. And we're building something real in Bitcoin. A lot of the crypto companies or shitcoins out there, they don't have a real product. They have fools gold or they have snake oil that they're trying to sell you. And the way that you sell snake oil to somebody is by putting pretty packaging on it. So a lot of time goes into marketing or UIUX design or hiding the fact that it's snake oil. So it's just very different, right? I think Bitcoin had to go through this evolution where, you know, we're laying, again,

we're laying the sewer lines, right? We're paving the roads. We're making a tunnel through a massive mountain right now. That's where Bitcoin's at. We're doing something real, but it just takes time. And it has started to pay off. Like I'm definitely starting to notice it with all the products that are coming out. Yeah, absolutely.

Tyler, did you have any other final thoughts you wanted to throw in on the topic or style? I think just like back to original reason why I was bullish open source or I guess educational opportunities for individuals looking to contribute. Can't like I can't overstate the like power of networking, right? It's how it's so, so powerful, right? And I'm not talking about connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm talking about shake hands, meet at a meetup, talk to individuals. It ties back to the circular economy. that you were talking about, Ben, like talk to individuals, ask what they do. If you're looking

to kind of work in the space or see what you can do, not even work in the space, but see what you can do to provide. Just maybe it's a cool project like Satsy's project, something like that. Just ask around. The help is there and networking is so powerful. It's how I found my way to unchained. I was through networking. So yeah, just want to leave it on that note, at least for my particular why I'm bullish portion. That's awesome. Yeah. Hit your meet people they're important you can get a lot out of them so um great well let's do a let's do a little rotation everybody in the chat keep them coming um Kyle says uh happy Wednesday freaks Wednesday wobb um anyways so we're going to do a quick rotation uh I'm going to jump to

uh Sahil so dude why are you bullish all right yeah kind of like Tyler I literally made a list and there was so many of these that are probably going to overflow to you know, maybe next time. But one thing I saw, what's up? It's that bullish. I'm bullish on the list. Yeah. It was really hard to narrow this down.

But I will say one thing that got me insanely excited, I cannot contain it, was I think it's called Keeper. I'm pretty sure it's called Keeper. I don't think it's fully out yet. But it's a plan, I believe, from the Hexa Wallet team. I think, Ben, if you're pulling up, I think it's Keeper underscore on Twitter or something like that. that. But the hexa wallet team, I believe they started with a sort of non-standard style of

Shamir secret sharing quote-unquote multi-sig wallet. It was using a lot of non-standard stuff to build that kind of multi-party wallet. And I believe this is their transition towards more of a standard multi-sig wallet with standardized tools. And it's mobile based. You can, in the video, So there's a couple more videos on their Twitter, but you can use your cold card NFC. You can use QR signing devices. I believe Ledger has Bluetooth, may or may not want to use that. But the point is, this is so exciting to me. And you might think this is weird.

You know, we work it at UnChain. It's like we kind of have one of those products. But the cool part is the interoperability between all these kind of products because they're using standards. It means that you're not locked into any one of these products. You're not locked into Unchains Bolt. right? You know, if, if Unchains providing a valuable service, you'll use Unchained. If not, you'll find something else. But this is just so exciting to me. I mean, using a phone and using a tap signer

with NFC, it's just incredible to me. And one more thing I didn't add before I, before I pass it on. Blockstream Jade, I believe, well, so the Jade has existed for a while, but I believe they're working on adding QR, QR PSBT scanning of ability. So all of these things together, you know, more QR devices, more NFC devices, more mobile, multi-sig coordinators and interoperability between them. Yeah, exactly. Blockstream Jade, CQRs. There's just so much here. And honestly, this is the kind of stuff that got me excited to work at Unchained. They want. I've got a question. Regarding the the block stream jade um is this so this looks like what um pretty much what uh you can do with a seed signer right like you're you're yeah okay that's really awesome because i saw like there there's definitely

the jade is awesome i just i i always had like a bit of a buggy experience and they hadn't I think they just stretch them and block streams stretch themselves thin for a little bit where the jade wasn't getting a lot of love and like there wasn't updates coming out but then I see stuff like this and I'm like oh this like the value proposition now is

is so much more that you can you know you can have imported keys and be creating a multi-sig from something like this using the camera that had been left alone up until now so I love to see them adding features like this and and again it kind of to the to the previous points made there's there's a lot happening right now there's a lot of things behind the scenes that are being improved or

implemented that were never available before and it's great to see yeah yeah and I think also just the last point again I'm ranting a lot here but I think just the idea of people being able to use really high quality hardware. I mean, the Jade is not like a, I think it is plastic, but it's not, it's not like a creaky device. It's a well-made device. And there's a camera, there's a big screen where you can validate your address. Having these high-quality devices, another example, Foundation Devices Passport. I just love the idea of, you know, someday in the future, our clients using these really high-quality devices and, you know, not having this worry about making these big transactions. We want them to feel secure, not just our clients, but

everyone, right? So yeah. It's the thing that I like is the progression that Bitcoin hardware has gone through because I saw kind of an inverse progression with alternatives. And what I mean is the a lot of time and thought has gone into the support for a lot of different features and a lot of like some of the like bitcoin power users there's there's a lot of those features baked into a lot of the hardware now and and i guess the firmware that would be on these devices um they took the approach first of you know and something like the jade making it affordable so it's you know it's accessible to a lot of people you get the same with like this the um tap signer now from cold card where you just have simple NFC functionality and it's cheap, right?

So you can get one of those for like, I don't know, like 10 bucks or something. Well, maybe that's a SaaS card. But like nonetheless, it's it's cheaper hardware. So it's accessible. But then you're right. You do have higher end stuff. But you have the firmware that is keeping up to date with the latest and greatest in Bitcoin supporting it. And what I saw early on, when I start.

started doing a lot of stuff with the channel. I got a ton of people being like, hey, can we send you our hardware device to test out? And like, you know, me as just starting to get people saying, oh, yeah, we'll send you something. I literally said yes to everything. And then I'm sitting on a mountain of shitty devices. And I'm like, oh, no, what have I done?

And I would pick these things up and like either the big. build quality was shit and the interface and like the support for everything was shit or in some instances the build quality was beautiful and it was such a high end device but maybe not open source it would still be rocking like a legacy address it wouldn't have support for multi-sig it wouldn't have support for like all of these important integral things that you want with bitcoin and you want to be like especially if you're spending a lot of money on a high end device you want it to do all of the things you can do with hardware you don't want to be going what why is my address start with a one like you guys don't even have segwit support are you fucking kidding me so like

i think the trajectory that we're on here is nice because like across the board i'm seeing you know you've got your mainstays have been around for a long time obviously a legend are going to have like kind of the latest with Bitcoin because they have the teams to be able to keep that shit up to date. But then you've got like the companies that are focusing on Bitcoin only. And even if they have small teams, they're like, yes, we are focusing just on Bitcoin. So we have the ability to actually focus in and give people a good experience here and actually and make sure we're up to date with the latest and greatest.

And then you can pick your flavor. You know, what kind of device, what kind of interface do you like? And the other last thing that I'll chime in here is the support is not just on the hardware and firmware side, but the support is on the software side that you use it with, too. Because how many great wallets like Sparrow and Specter and Nunshuck and Lilly and Blue Wallet And the support across the board for a lot of these Bitcoin-only options are is there. And you're seeing like, oh, I've got this wallet. I wonder what it works with.

Like everything. And it's not across the board yet, but it's headed that direction. And I think you're going to see more and more of that as people get on kind of the same standards. Those standards are still kind of being developed, but it's very promising. Yeah, two There's two upgrades that Trezer and Ledger put out in the past few months that make me actually more bullish on them. So for a while, I think both of those companies were going kind of the broad crypto. They were trying to add as many cryptos as they possibly could to meet demand.

I get it. There's a lot of cryptos out there. A lot of people want to use hardware wallets to secure them. but a few months ago, Trezer added a Bitcoin-only firmware option, which I think is an extremely smart move because if you're securing, you know, not all Bit—not all cryptos are the same. In fact, there's Bitcoin and then there's significantly less secure cryptocurrencies, which is all other ones. So if you're securing multiple different cryptos on a single or with a single device, you're opening up your Bitcoin to a broad attack surface.

So going Bitcoin only by Treasur was a huge improvement, I think, in their offering and something that we now recommend our clients go with when they're setting up their treasors. Now, Ledger, they for a while, I would say, were kind of behind the times in terms of Bitcoin functionality and firmware. And then about, I think it was also about the same time. as Treasor released their Bitcoin-only firmware, Ledger released their Bitcoin 2.0 app, which opens the door for some really cool functionality that has yet to be written, but functionality specifically regarding how the device works in multi-signature.

So for a long time, Ledger was very far behind the other devices, the other popular devices when it comes to multi-signature functionality. and with the recent firmware update, they're a step closer. They're still not caught up all the way, but just seeing them invest in that new Bitcoin 2.0 app, I want to give them props for that because that was like a really big improvement over the previous firmware.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. The other thing I'd like to mention on the Trezor and Ledger side of things, so in regards to connecting to your own node, So I'll say with a lot of these other options we've been talking about, whether it be cold card and tap signer and all that stuff or the Jade or, I don't know, foundation or seed signer and like all of these other options, Bitbox even. You can use them with other interface and you can do that with the treas and the ledger.

But I do like the trend of things like the cold card and the passport and the seed signer where you never have to interact with a proprietary app if you don't want to. I think that's an important thing to support. I love that you can use those other ones after the fact, but you still need to use their interface to upgrade, to do really anything to kind of get. started to set up the device initially. And that can kind of be seen as like a central point of failure. I, there's a couple things here, but I really enjoy that, you know, being able to utilize these devices, set them up with alternatives. I will give props to Trezer and Ledger for adding into their proprietary apps the ability

to connect to your own node. Caviot. Treasers works pretty well. Ledger, you got to fix your shit, man. It doesn't. I like, stupidly, so I made an update video for the umbral. And I went through like, oh, how to connect to your, how to connect your node in various ways?

And one of them I used Ledger Live. I was like, oh, you can connect your Ledger Live. I went through the initial step. of like where to get the info to connect within Ledger Live. And it kind of got to the point where it's like, oh, it's connected now. And then you had to plug in your device and do other things. And I just kind of left it there.

And then I got a few comments being like, that's not the part that everybody's getting screwed on. There's some weird, you need to download like an extra program and have it running in the background in order to give Ledger Live the ability to connect to your node. And it just, it does not work. I've tried it on Linux. I've tried it on Mac.

I don't have a Windows computer. I'm not going to buy a Windows computer to try and see if it's broken there too. Nonetheless, Ledger, you got to figure that shit out because it shouldn't be that complicated. It should just be put in your credentials and it just works.

So hopefully, you know, I'll give them props for starting to go down that path, but, you know, hopefully it gets a bit more attention and it's a breeze in a short period of time. But anyways, I'll leave it there. I'll leave it to you guys for any more comments. I don't know, Tyler, Phil, Sahil, if you have any other things you want to add

to this particular line of topics. Just as I'm staring at my half-built seed signer over here, it's actually a good reminder to follow through and keep playing with this thing. But I did a workshop with some colleagues, colleagues from Unchained, Tray Sellers and Justine Harper at TabConf. And part of that was demoing a multi-sig, DIY multi-sig, and Sparrow. And it was kind of cool.

I had that thought where it's like I plugged a cold card Mark 4 into a wall outlet, generated my seed phrase, and I was able to use a micro SD card, air-gapped to share an ex-pub with Sparrow, which is an open-source software. This is crazy and it's here right now. I also used in that two of three multi-sake setup, a ledger and the treasur, just to show like how all these devices, you know, there is interoperability here between both software and then also these signing devices as well. Now, they were already set up so we didn't have to interact with Ledger Live or the Treasurer Suite or anything like that. But just the power of something like Sparrow to like recognize your connected hardware device and it picks up the type, it grabs the derivation path and then the correct X-Pub and you're good to go. But like it's almost it's almost like magic.

It really, really is. Yeah, absolutely. It's a beautiful thing to see. And just somebody in the comments here, they mentioned, because we were talking about not having to use proprietary apps and not having absolute reliance on a third party if you don't want to. And he said, while it's fine to use a good UI for ease of use, everyone should know how to use Bitcoin in an adversarial environment.

And I couldn't agree more. So when we're talking about like generating keys on a seed sign or a cold card entirely air-gapped offline, some people's eyes are going to glaze over and they're going to go, oh my God, I have to do this every single time. And that's way too hard for me. You don't have to be able to do this. What we're saying is it is an excellent skill set to have. And it's great to be curious.

so play and learn and a lot of the time a lot of people think they need that prerequisite knowledge to even go down that path no the tool itself is the learning device right you you learn through doing you don't learn before doing all right so just go out and do yeah i'll just add to that like my one i would say if i were to give somebody like one tip who's holding their own keys. It's always, always, always secure your seed phrase physically. That's the one tip I feel like that will allow you the greatest amount of flexibility in the future. If you're using multi-signature, you know, there's a few other items you need to protect. You need to have your seed phrases and your wallet configuration file. But you want to remove reliance on on any single point of failure. You shouldn't have a single device where if, you know, it breaks for any reason, or you forget to update the firmware and you really need your Bitcoin, you never want to rely on a single point of failure, a single device. So securing seed phrases physically, I think,

is just it's the foundation for good Bitcoin management. You have to have physical seed phrases so that you don't ever have to rely on a proprietary tool. Seed phrases are open source. You can load them into pretty much any tool that is available to be able to manage your keys. Yeah, and there's a progression too. Like I think what Phil mentioned, you want to get at least the basics in, like Phil said seed phrases, you want to do that.

Then, like, you know, using your own node, you can progress to that. Don't let it overwhelm you. You can and probably should get to that point. You know, you can run up a sparrow, and pulling your unchained vault into sparrow and validate with your own full node. So you can do that stuff,

but don't let it scare you from buying Bitcoin. Yeah, Phil went off mute to say physically secured C phrases. I was about to do the same thing. Also, like, not everyone, but a lot of people learn by doing and by buying a Treasurer cold card, by buying one and setting it up, it's not like your life savings immediately get transferred to it.

it right. So you can set it up. These devices can be, you know, reset in the case of a cold card, you do want to make sure you know your pin that you set initially. But playing around with these devices, generating a 24-word seed phrase, and then wiping your treasurer and restoring that seat phrase back into the treas. That's a very powerful operation. And getting your hands dirty with this stuff is going to make you feel 10 times more confident when you actually go to do some serious set-up work. So worth pointing that out as well. I, my favorite part, because I've done a couple cold card workshops. So I did one in Vancouver at the beginning of summer.

And I, in the workshop, the way I usually do it is I'll get everybody to set up a cold card. And then I'll send them each about 10 bucks onto that cold card. And, you know, they've already backed up their seat phrase and everything. And then I take them into the settings. And I say, okay, everybody, we're going to go to this area. And then there's this little thing that says danger zone. I want you to go there. And then I want you to select the option that wipes the device.

And they're all like, what? I'm like, yeah. I hope you wrote down your seat phrase correctly. If not, there you go. But, you know, at least it wasn't your money to begin with. But just take it as, you know, a semi expensive lesson. Like not that expensive. But, you know, it costs a little bit of money to learn that.

And at least it wasn't yours. and people's it's funny because people's minds are blown when they it makes them put together the idea that the money was never on the device it was a key that accesses coins that you own on a global accessible network that anyone can see and so when they realize that and you're like the words are the key it's like a backup key to your house, except for it's a backup key to a safety deposit box in the sky. Like, only you can unlock it. And so the realization of like, the wallet isn't the money. The wallet is just a key and you make a copy of a key and you can import that key. And the other thing that breaks their brains is when you say, you can take this key and you can import it to anything.

It doesn't need to be to another cold card. It can be to a hot wallet on your phone, although like undo some of the security of an offline, you know, key. But nonetheless, it still functions. And you see that moment where people go, oh, my God. Oh, as they start to understand the implications and how Bitcoin works and how revolutionary that is, it's beautiful. I have a question for you guys. I want you guys to rate my method of teaching

multisig and backing up your file, your wallet file. So this is my explanation when I talk to people about multisig. And I usually, I pair it with an image that I put together. So I always say that

each, and I think Phil is frozen in time, but that's okay. It's laser eyes fried as a computer or something. But I always say that basically what you're doing is you're creating a digital vault that requires multiple keys to open. So maybe you have three keys and it requires two of them.

And from each one of those keys, you actually take a tiny bit of information that helps you form a map to your vault. So all of those keys, a little bit of information from each, can take you to your vault. Now, you might have You might only have a couple of your keys, but you still have that map. You still have that file.

And so you can find your vault and you only need two of the keys. However, if you lose the map to your vault and you lose the entirety of one of the keys, then you don't know where your vault is. So even though you've got enough to open it, you don't know where to find it and your funds are inaccessible. And so I usually pair it with this. image. So I say, here's your keys. You've got three keys and you've got a backup of each key. And in the background, they pulled information from each key. So this ledger and the backup of it is this part of the map. This treasurer and the backup of it is this part of the map. This cold card and the

back above it is this part of the map. And you need, if you lose the map, you need at least one of the two things on each part of the map to redraw it. So that's usually my explanation. How do you rate me? Is that acceptable? Is that Unchained acceptable? I'd give it five out of five bowls. I do, yeah, the treasure map analogy is, I think, a really strong way to frame it. When I first joined Unchained, that's how Phil kind of framed it. And I have learned to talk about it with clients like that, you know, you can have the keys to the treasure chest, but if you don't know where to find that treasure chest, you know, like the keys aren't going to help you out very much, right? And so it is really, really important. The thing that I would

add to maybe make that six out of five bowls is a recommendation on how to store that wallet configuration file, which, you know, you really want to be thinking critically about what that exposes and what it doesn't expose. So it's okay to download that file. from your given wallet coordinator or interface. But you do want to be thinking about somebody gets a hold of that file. They could rebuild your multi-sig and they could maybe see your balances. That's a privacy consideration to take into account. But they could also rebuild your vault, right?

And with that comes, okay, now they just need M of your N keys to successfully move funds. So if you are going to be making a physical copy of that wallet config file, Maybe you think about really diligently and intently, where are you storing that in relation to the other elements of your setup? Might it be best to keep it behind a password manager or using cloud encryption? So it's still password protected, but it's in the cloud and you're not tied down to one specific physical device. So if you are in Amsterdam and you need to access your funds and maybe you're using, you have one key with you and you're using a collaborative custodian, you know, there's different ways you can think about it. But password manager, cloud encryption, I usually lean towards that when I'm thinking about storing that file. Yeah.

And it's when people are thinking about this kind of side, I like this, I always love getting down this topic of conversation. But if you were to store that file together or rather, if that file is apart from the devices themselves, there's actually no indication with a single device that it's even part of a multi-sick. So that's like that's one of the the so you could have like maybe a little decoy amount on as a single stick on one of these devices. And somebody found that. What do you do? First of all, if they get into the device, you know, after failing the pin multiple times. But like let's say a $5 wrench attack kind of deal. Well, okay, they get the decoy amount.

They have no idea. That's part of a multi-sig. And even if they did, hopefully you've geographically dispersed the other keys. There's not anything they can do about it. So yeah. Yeah, I think what a lot of people don't quite realize about multi-sig is it really turns your seed phrase into just a key. It's just one key and multiple keys plus directions are required to find and spend your Bitcoin. So, you know, not recommending you do this, but what you could do, definitely don't do this, is like,

like tweet one of your multi-sig seed phrases and somebody couldn't get from that seed phrase to your multi-sig Bitcoin, particularly if they didn't know that it was part of multi-sig. Don't tweet your seed phrase. But I'm just saying like it can be seriously compromised and you've exposed very little information, which is really cool. It's like one of my favorite features of multi-sig. It also opens up the door to an improved sort of inheritance workflow. Because now you can, if you're using multi-sig, you can give a seed phrase to a trusted relative who's maybe less technical.

And nothing, damn it, Jevi. Nothing that that relative can do, that relative can't do anything to actually compromise your multi-sig fund. So including getting fishing attacked. So if your relative gets fishing attacked and it looks like an email and they're just trying to be helpful and they accidentally enter your seed phrase onto a computer, if it's a multi-sig seed phrase, your funds are still safe. I mean, I would recommend rotating out that key and building a new multi-sig wallet. But for an inheritance scenario, it really offers you a lot of protection. On top of that, the person who has the seed phrase, they don't know necessarily your balance. So you can give them a seed phrase.

You can give your sister a seed phrase. And with that seed phrase, they can still have no really clue about how much Bitcoin they're actually protecting. You would, of course, need to provide information about the multi-sig to someone else in order to be able to kind of collaborate. But it just opens up the door for a lot more possibility when it comes to something like inheritance. Yeah.

I think just to add to what Phil said, Like, to your point, Phil, if you give your sister your seat phrase, they don't have the map to, they don't know how much Bitcoin that you have because you're not giving them the config file. But to Tyler's point, in terms of where do you want to store that map to find the vault, just to build on the analogy a little bit, I'm sure it breaks down at some point. But that vault that's stored somewhere securely, it's almost like a see-through vault, right? Because if you have the map to find the vault and you see it, you know exactly how much it's in there. So you want to make sure you store that map safely because if someone has the map, they essentially know how much pickling you have. So you could put it, you know, with your seat phrases. You could give it to someone, but then, you know, they would essentially be able to look through the vault.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I actually, I recommend against storing the map with seed phrases in multi-sick because, you know, Even in a non-malicious scenario where like somebody stumbles upon your speed phrase, if it doesn't have the map, then they have no idea what the seed phrase is protecting. If they have the map, then they know, oh, this is one of three keys to my two of three or whatever.

So it's different, definitely different tradeoffs there. But it offers a lot of flexibility, which I think is the key takeaway. And just to reiterate, this is only with multi-sig. With single signature wallets, if your seed phrase is lost, your Bitcoin's lost, because it includes the map and the key in kind of one location. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. All right.

Well, let's, we're going to round out this topic. And again, everybody in the chat, thanks for continuing those messages. I'll pull up more as they go. But I do want to rotate our final rotation. And Phil, I'm going to keep it with you. I'm going to toss it to you. And I'll just ask, why are you bullish? Well, I'm particularly bullish right now for kind of a weird reason.

And the reason can be displayed by the fact that we have basically just Jevy in the chats. We have, we're at about a $19,000 Bitcoin, which is pretty low kind of based on where Bitcoin has been. There's not much focus on Bitcoin right now. I would say, you know, we've noticed that things have slowed down at Unchained. I imagine across the industry, there's been a massive slowdown. But Bitcoin's holding on to this $19,000 price. And then if you look at the hoddle waves, which is a visualization of the movement of Bitcoin and how long Bitcoin has been sitting in a given address, over 60% of all Bitcoin

has just been sitting in an address for over a year. So it hasn't moved in over a year. And that's 60% of all the Bitcoin that is currently accessible by private keys. So a massive amount of Bitcoin, the entire amount of like 60% of all the Bitcoin is sitting there for over a year. The price is at 19K and it's been there for a month or so, maybe even longer. And we're, you know, speaking to each other and Jevy. So I just I'm extremely bullish about that and it makes me want to like find a place to sell a kidney or something to buy more Bitcoin because I think the only direction we're going from here is up.

And having been through a few bull bear cycles before like it feels like almost the eye of the storm or the night is the darkest before the dawn. like it kind of feels like we're getting there right now, which makes me incredibly bullish. I mean, it kind of attests to the fact that once again, all the price movement happens on the edges, right? Like, because there's so many people that they're just sitting on their Bitcoin. Like, yes, I have Bitcoin savings, and I also live on Bitcoin. So, yeah, there's a lot of transactional stuff that's happening. outside of my savings. So like some of my Bitcoin or some of that the Bitcoin that of that 60%, right?

That shit's not moving. It's just it's sitting there. But there's tiny little transactional movements that are happening on the fringes. And just because a small portion of Bitcoin is actively liquid and there happen to be more sellers on that fringe in that small percentage of Bitcoin, it doesn't mean that all of those other people have begun to dump their Bitcoin. They're holding it. They're saving it. And so it can take very little movement in one direction or the other to move the price up and down significantly when you're looking at that that kind of fringe of Bitcoin users that are are transacting and purchasing and selling and

and moving on in some cases more emotion than deep thought. And I definitely think there's a lot more people over time that are relying on deeper thought and low time preference than trying to time the market. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you want to pull up the huddle waves right now because it's kind of a dense chart, but even the last movement up to 70K was a very different move. then the 2017 run up to 20K because at about 70K, the people who had purchased Bitcoin at

$3 to $500 were not selling. And you can see that in how the kind of longer or older Bitcoin, older UTXOs were just sitting. So yeah, this is kind of a dense chart, but what I'm talking about here is if you look at the light green and the darker green bands to the right side. So when we went up to 70K, which is that price chart, you can see the darker green band just expanding. And that represents Bitcoin that's been sitting for three to five years. So that Bitcoin, again, was purchased at a price of like $400 and was not moved. people were not interested in selling that Bitcoin when we were at 70K. And this is a little bit of conjecture here, but like that makes me crazy bullish.

And then the other thing that I wanted to mention was on the kind of lower side of the chart, if you look at the yellow band, it's getting really, really thick right now. And that's the one plus year band. And it's the thickest or like, why does it's ever been at this point? Like all the Bitcoin that hasn't moved. So this is just, I think it's pretty bullish. Yeah, there we go. Yeah.

Oh, it's cool. I didn't realize that you could. Yeah, this chart is really dense, but what I like about it is it just showed. First of all, it's impossible to do with the Fiat standard because you have no idea how much dollar or any other currency exists in a given time. But since the Bitcoin blockchain is a public database and everything is tracked on the blockchain eternally, you can see exactly how. Bitcoin is moving.

And it forms these kind of crazy wave patterns that you're seeing here on this chart. So, yeah, I look at this and it makes me extremely bullish because of how quiet it is in the industry right now. That's awesome. Yeah, it's it's cool to think, again, like there's a lot of people that are a lot more people kind of understand the long-term trajectory of Bitcoin a lot better. And as, you know, it kind of shows that people are saving more. What I hope is that with the shitstorm that is legacy finance and central bank debasement

and followed by extreme levels of tightening, that people that are saving don't get so screwed that they have to dip into some of those long-term savings. So, you know, I would, I mean, I feel like Bitcoin encourages good habits, which would be spend less than you earn, saving Bitcoin, saving the better money. So, you know, I hope to see that. But I don't know. I think the longer you're saving, the less of an issue it is. I think it's people kind of forget, I mean, 2016, I believe when all the election craziness was going on, I'm pretty sure the Bitcoin price was like 600 bucks, you know, and people are freaking out over $19,000 Bitcoin.

Like, it's, it's kind of nuts. So I think our friend, our mutual friend and colleague Parker Lewis, you know, he has a great saying. He's like, if you're not sure about Bitcoin, trying to ask, do you understand? 21 million. Do you understand why 21 million exists? Do you understand how it's credibly enforced? And if the answer to the question, is it credibly enforced is yes, what else are you going to own? And if the answer is like, I'm not sure you should start asking that, you know, doing some more research around that. But if the answer is yes, if 21 million can be credibly enforced, what else do you own? Like I'm not even sure what else

to own. So it's an interesting question. Yeah. Yeah, Tyler, I don't know. Do you have thoughts in and around kind of in and around the hoddle waves and the propensity for Bitcoiners to save for long periods of time? Yeah, I think it ties back to the circular economy that started this whole round of bullishness, right? I mean, if you have kind of this embedded culture of saving in Bitcoin, then you're going to need to coordinate. economic activity somehow, right? So you're going to have to spend your Bitcoin, right? It's

kind of like another criticism that Parker tackles, and one of it is gradually than suddenly pieces is, you know, people say, well, Bitcoin Hodler's just hoard Bitcoin and, you know, they're never going to spend it. Well, in order to conduct economic activity and coordinate economic activity, you need to spend your Bitcoin. So I actually think the two could work hand in hand, right? The more that we develop this culture around saving in Bitcoin, I think we can actually foster in this culture of also spending Bitcoin for goods and services too. What I'm spending, another individual is saving, right? So it's kind of like this slow wash out of the current fiat system. So those huddleways make me incredibly bullish. I usually have them up in a tab

amongst my, you know, 100 other tabs that I have opened at work during the day. I'm just hearing, you know, Phil will be chatting with Parker. or Will Cole about the hoddle waves. And it does make me bullish. So, you know, I'm incredibly bullish on that, bullish on Bitcoin saving, living on zero, everything that Sahel's about as well.

Yeah, it's fantastic. And I do encourage, like, listeners, if you saw that screen share and you want to go check out the hoddle waves, definitely do so. Like throw it to Google, go to the on-chain site and look at the hoddle waves. It's pretty awesome stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love stuff like that. And it's, to Phil's point, And it's really cool to see like an open monetary network that you can actually audit and actually see what's going on and get a much better understanding of how things are working and moving. Well, at the same time, if you choose to preserving your own privacy. So it's it's the most and least transparent at the same time if you want it to be. So it's fantastic. gentlemen, I'm going to start to round it out here.

Now, at the end of the show, I always like to do a couple of things. So I'll do a quick round of any final thoughts, anything you want to mention before we round out here. But also, I'm going to give you guys a little challenge. And the challenge will be to give a recommendation of really anything that you found helpful in your Bitcoin journey. Now, this could be, it could be content. It could be like a book, an article, a video, a podcast. But it can also be a website. It could be a device.

It could be an app. It could be really anything that you think is worth somebody's time to take a peek at. So what I'd like to recommend is. is I like to recommend people dive into learning just the tiniest, tiniest little bit of command line. And so the reason I say that is I'm really, really enjoying, I'm just starting to kind of dive into that realm. So I picked up a cheap laptop, like an old think pad.

and put Linux on it. And I've just been going through a few series like free courses on YouTube of like navigating Linux and how to use it. And I think it's given me a greater appreciation of what goes into everything that happens in the background on our computers. And also what goes into building applications.

I'm doing a little bit of stabling in Python on for the first time just to kind of see, okay, how do you make a computer do something? And it's, I find it's super interesting. I think it's really cool. And it gives you kind of a greater appreciation for everything. So the guy that I've been kind of looking at his, you know, I'm looking at his YouTube videos, learning from him. But I'm going to pull up his YouTube channel because I think it's great.

Where is it right here? here. He's got a lot of subscribers, like two and a half million subscribers, so good for him. Good. He deserved it. Anyways, network Chuck. Network Chuck. Anyways, awesome YouTube channel.

He's got a really good, he's got a great Linux for hackers. Like, it's a 10-episode course, just basically taking you through the basics of jumping on a Linux machine and navigating the terminal. and create, you know, basic like navigation, how to create copy, move files, how to dive into the damans in your file, in your system. There's a ton of stuff in there. And yeah, it's great.

So anyways, go to network Chuck. He did some good stuff. So that's my little recommendation. In terms of final thoughts, yeah, man, super bullish on circular economies. sell me chickens please align with that Tyler I'm going to jump it to you

final thoughts and a recommendation if you have one yeah I love your command line recommendation you can really feel like a superhero doing that and also plus one for Linux System 76 awesome machines great great stuff if you're really trying to dive in

I'm incredibly bullish for everything like all the reasons everybody around around the camera I guess mentioned today it's hard not to be, especially in the doldrums that we're in right now, as Phil was pointing out, like if we're still this bullish, I can't even imagine what's to come. My recommendation for getting started, you know, not to be too repetitive, but, you know, if you're in an area where, you know, you're not in a place where the nearest persons like 10 miles

away and you're relatively somewhere urban, find a Bitcoin meetup. And if there's not anything in your area, start one. the most, I think single, most impactful thing for me in starting my Bitcoin journey was actually just outside of buying Bitcoin, buying my first hardware wallet, was actually going and talking about it with people face to face. Twitter's great and it's one thing. But being able to have a beer at a brewery and talk about Bitcoin with somebody really can, like, change the course of how you think about things or how you discover new tools too.

So my advice or tip to get started would be, yeah, find a local meetup. And again, if there's not one, start one. do the best you can to promote it. That's awesome. Love it. Yeah. Go, go, again,

go to your local meetup. I should also shout out quickly, the Minneapolis Bitcoins, or meetup. Jeffy's in the chat. Brandon Quitem over at Swan. It's an awesome crew. We have some unchained team members from there,

so I want to shout that out. Awesome. Yeah. If you're in Minneapolis, check it out. Phil, you're up. Final thoughts, recommendations. What's your own?

Yeah, I'm going to take the recommendations in a slightly different direction. So we talked a little bit about technical recommendations, meeting up in person. One of the things that I think really helped me better understand Bitcoin was reading Austrian economics. So Austrian economics, I think, helps you to use deductive and logical reasoning based off of truths in order to figure out why Bitcoin is going to succeed as, global reserve currency. So two resources that I would start with are Bitcoin in one lesson. That's the most kind of classic intro to this style of thinking. And then actually just recently, I read Per Byland, who's on Twitter, he just published a really nice introduction called How to Think About the Economy. How to Think About the Economy is like 120 pages and you can read it in two

hours and it'll help you just adjust the way that you think about the world. Beyond that, I think the ethics of money production helps a lot in understanding the pitfalls of the Fiat system and what we're really up against because it talks through kind of the ethical problems with printing money and how we got there and how immoral where we're at is. Like you see it kind of walks you through the different layers of the immorality. That's just kind of introduced into the money system over time. So maybe a little bit of a curveball, but I'm going to shill Mises and the gang and go Austrian economics this evening. Awesome. You said Bitcoin in one lesson. Did you mean economics in one lesson?

Economics in one lesson, yes. Bitcoin in one lesson is a great presentation that Parker Lewis put together. But yes, economics in one lesson by Henry Haslett. Yeah. This is, I really enjoy this one. And it's, and it's not a long read either. It just, it basically, it is literally one lesson,

but he just reiterates it in a different way every single chapter. That's right. And then how to think about the economy is, it talks through, um, a few more aspects. It's more of a broader introduction,

but also very consumable, very easy to, uh, to read and, you know, read it on an airplane or read it before bed. Um, but yeah,

it's a great, introduction and just changes the way that you think about the world. Awesome. I love it. All right. Sahel, you're up. Awesome. Lots of recommendations.

Yeah, my recommendation, recently I've been playing around a lot with Robosats. It's a no KYC lightning-based peer-to-peer exchange to buy and sell Bitcoin. And it's all over tour. And actually, Ben, your video helped me out a lot. So shout out to you. I've watched like pretty much all your tutorials just even just as a product person. You need to be involved with like

what are all the products on the market. And it's, I just love your video. So first of all, shout out to you. And Robosats is incredible. It's really fun to use, honestly.

It's very low friction. I've used BISC as well. It's a little bit higher friction. But Robosat's is much lower friction than BISC. So highly recommend giving that a shot. Yeah. It's, I've got to say,

I was very pleasantly surprised, when I tried it out. It's and again, like this is, this is the non-tore version, but it's, it's pretty simple. Like you go in, it creates a nym for you. And then you can buy, sell very simply over lightning. And you can basically set your, your method of payment, like your method of Fiat payment, however you see fit.

Yeah, it's, it's super awesome. I love it. Highly recommend super glad that's your recommendation. Yeah. And selfishly, me recommending that means that, you know, increased liquidity means probably lower fees. I mean, you can set a zero percent premium, which is what I do, and it often gets filled,

which is really nice. So you can have zero, zero percent premium. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, and again, like, it's not 100% necessary that people always do it this way.

But as we were saying in the chat, it is excellent to know how to use Bitcoin in an adversarial environment because then you're prepared for anything. If things go sideways and all of a sudden you can't use your typical on-ramps for some reason or off-ramps for some reason, Well, now you know how to continue to use Bitcoin and continue to be self-sovereign regardless of the circumstances. So I think that's fantastic.

Yeah, go ahead. Oh, just final thoughts if you wanted me to do that now. Yeah. Yeah, a couple things. First of all, shout out to the Unchained team. Sometimes you're working heads down every day and like these moments are really nice to come out of the water and be like, oh, wow, you know, this is, we're actually doing something really important here.

So shout out to that chain team. Shout to Austin Bitcoin Design Club. Really, really want to give them a shout out. We're building something cool there. And one last thing really quick. There's a conference in India coming up soon in November. I'm actually not going. But I wanted to give them a shout out because India is one of those countries where Indians love gold.

I mean, there's a history of gold. And I won't get into it right now, just because we don't have time. But there's a huge opportunity there. And so I just wanted a shout out to. all my Indian brothers and sisters and hopefully we can orange pill the whole continent of India, which is like, I think, over a billion people. So,

yeah, that's awesome. I love that. I hope it's a big one then. I hope Bitcoiners start to truly infiltrates and lay down a flag in India. That's awesome. All right, gentlemen. Well, the time has

come. We're going to wrap up. I really appreciate all your time. This is a blast. Everybody in the chat. Thank you so much for being here. All of these guys, their Twitter handles are linked in these show notes down below. So give them all a follow and you'll see everything that they're up to at Unchained. And yeah, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. You're welcome back anytime.

Thanks, Ben. Thanks so much, Ben. Appreciate it. Cheers, guys. I'll see you later. Cheers. Awesome. And everybody watching, thank you so much for being here.

Hope you enjoyed the show. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. As always, please do like, subscribe, share. All those things, super important. They really do help get more eyeballs on the show. Other things you can do, you can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors in the show notes. Coin Kite, Shake, Pay, Leaden, Bit refill, Bill Fottle.

They're all down here. A few last housekeeping notes here. If you're in Calgary or the surrounding area and you're around on Tuesday, this coming Tuesday next week, I think it's the 25th. Why do I see Bitcoin meetup? Come on down. They're going to be talking about encryption.

And I'm going to come hang out. And yeah, it should be a lot of fun. But I'd love to see a ton of people make it out to that one. Also, if you're in Charlotte, I'm going to be there. I'm flying out tomorrow. And I'm going to be there Friday, Saturday, coming home Sunday. But I'm there for Halloween being put on by Bitcoin, Charlotte should be an absolute blast, very excited for it.

There's going to be lots of learning, but also there's going to be, again, beef initiative dinner with Texas Slim and there's going to be a Halloween party. It's going to be a lot of fun. So again, if you're in the area and you don't have a ticket yet, definitely come hodleween. Dot party is the website. So check them out. A couple last things. I'm going to be in L.A. for Pacific Bitcoin in November.

I'm doing a cold card deep dive. So be sure if you want to come and really learn how to get the most out of your cold card This is a four-hour marathon. We're going to look at everything. So come check it out. There's only 15 spots available. I don't know what's left, but be sure to check it out. BTCSessions.com.

You can find the events page there and grab a ticket. And that's about it. So guys, if you really liked what you saw, you can drop me a Bitcoin tip at my strike page, strike. dot me slash bTC sessions uh head there type in any amount you want hit the tip button you'll see a lightning invoice or if you tap to the right a regular bitcoin QR code with that i'm out have yourselves a wonderful day or evening see you guys next time for your daily session