BTC Sessions - Why Hong Kong Needs Bitcoin: EXILED For Freedom | Nathan Law

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

Mentor Sessions Ep.012: Nathan Law on Hong Kong’s Fight for Freedom, Bitcoin, and Lessons for the WestCould Hong Kong’s slide into tyranny foreshadow challenges for the West? Is Bitcoin the key tool activists need to protect their freedom? In this powerful episode, we sit down with Nathan Law, Hong Kong’s youngest-ever legislator, whose journey took him from student activist to political prisoner, and now to exile in the UK with a $140,000 bounty on his head. Nathan shares his firsthand account of the Umbrella Movement, the erosion of democracy in Hong Kong, and how Bitcoin helps activists resist financial control. This isn’t just a story—it’s an urgent signal. Stay tuned, because the stakes are higher than you might realize.What You’ll Discover:• How Nathan went from college student to Hong Kong’s youngest legislator • The stark reality of Hong Kong’s fading freedoms under China’s rule • Bitcoin’s role in empowering activists against bank freezes and oppression • Vital lessons the West must heed from Hong Kong’s struggleChapters:• 00:00:00 - Introduction: Hong Kong’s Warning to the World• 00:01:42 - Nathan’s Journey: Student Activist to Legislator• 00:03:04 - The Umbrella Movement and 2019 Protests• 00:04:25 - Escape to the UK: Life in Exile• 00:10:04 - Hong Kong Today: Tyranny and Censorship• 00:17:00 - Bitcoin vs. Financial Censorship• 00:24:20 - Education Under Siege: Indoctrination in Schools• 00:30:51 - Identity Crisis: Hong Kong vs. China• 00:36:04 - China’s Rise and the West’s Missteps• 00:43:09 - Bitcoin in Hong Kong: Freedom’s Tool • 00:50:56 - Lessons for the West: Freedom Hangs by a Thread• 00:56:13 - Nathan’s Why: A Reluctant Hero’s Drive• 01:00:29 - How to Help: Supporting Hong Kong’s Fight • 01:05:47 - Closing Call: Freedom’s FutureAbout Nathan Law:• Book: Freedom: How We Lose It and How We Fight Back – Grab it on Amazon: https://www.nathanlawkc.com/freedom• Documentary: Who’s Afraid of Nathan Law? – Emmy-nominated, stream on PBS or Amazon: https://www.pbs.org/pov/films/nathanlawfilm/• Follow Nathan: @nathanlawkc on all platforms (except TikTok) Schedule a Free Discovery Session with Nathan to fast-track your Bitcoin education and enhance your self-custody security: https://bitcoinmentor.io/?fluent-booking=calendar&host=nathan-1712797202&event=30min Struggling to explain Bitcoin to friends and family? Blockhunters - The Bitcoin Board Game makes it fun and simple. Visit blockhuntersgame.com and use code BTCMENTOR for 10% off to ignite Bitcoin curiosity today! FREE Bitcoin Book Giveaway: New to Bitcoin? Get Magic Internet Money by Jesse Berger FREE! Click here: bitcoinmentororange.com/magic-internet-money BOOK Private Sessions with Bitcoin Mentor: Master self-custody, hardware, multisig, Lightning, privacy, and more. Visit bitcoinmentor.io Subscribe to Mentor Sessions: Don’t miss out—follow us on Twitter:BTC Sessions: @BTCsessionsNathan: @theBTCmentorGary: @GaryLeeNYC Enjoyed this? Like, subscribe, and share! Watch our last episode with Lenore Skenazy on free-range parenting: https://youtu.be/IkhB9UdDolo#Bitcoin #HongKong #Freedom #Democracy #Activism #NathanLaw #BitcoinMentor #MentorSessions #HumanRights #BitcoinEducation #Blockchain #Crypto #BitcoinPodcast #Freedom #Podcast #umbrellaprotest

They put my name on the blacklist. And in fact, for now, I'm unwanted under the national security law with around $140,000 bounty. There was a huge and massive protest in Hong Kong. Two million people marching down to its reach. One quarter of the population. Many activists bank accounts are frozen, even without due process. And many organizations, many human organizations started to try to cope with that by a significant. It's barely easy to lose freedom when power is in check.

Putting your guards down was a big thing. less strategic mistakes from the West. A lot of damages are done and is a bit too late. Could Hong Kong's collapse into tyranny be a dark preview of what's coming to the West? And is Bitcoin a critical tool that could help save the fight for freedom? Meet Nathan Law, Hong Kong's youngest legislator ever, who was imprisoned for staring down China's authoritarian machine and now lives in exile in the UK. His story isn't just inspiring, it's a chilling wake-up call. In this video, we discussed Nathan's unexpected hero's journey, the current state of freedom and democracy, in Hong Kong and why it's looking worse than ever and why Bitcoin is a lifeline for activists

all around the world. Stick around to hear from a guy who survived the nightmare because what's happening there might be closer to home than you think. Going beyond Bitcoin to bring you the skills and insights you need to escape the Fiat Matrix, this is Mentor Sessions. Well, Nathan Law, thank you so much for joining us today. For those who are unfamiliar, Nathan currently resides in the UK under political asylum. Nathan, can you tell us about how you ended up in such a situation and your involvement in the Hong Kong democracy movement, umbrella movement, Liberty movement. We would just love to hear it. Yeah, great. So first of all, thank you so much for having me, Gary, and also another Nathan.

It is a pleasure. For me, the story starts like 10 years ago when I was first a student and activist. I was a college freshman and then through my mind. In Thai life, I wasn't involved in anything about democracy and human rights. Both my parents, they didn't teach me about it. We grew up in one of the most impoverished area in Hong Kong. So they had these, I call refugee mentality, which they focus on making ends meet, putting foot on table, and always encourage me not to rock the boat, just like focus on your thing

and have a proper job and climb up the social ladder. But it was going through education on different democracy movement, including the one in in China in 1989, the Tiananmen massacre and many others, that I was also inspired by the people who look like me, who at my similar age, but they are working towards something much greater than themselves. So I decided to get involved in student activism in my college, and when I first joined it, there was a huge massive civil disobedience movement called umbrella movement. And I became a student activist, student leader, was one of the five student activists

who had a negotiation with the government. And then I became a public figure. So the journey started there and then I was elected into Hong Kong's legislature at 23, which was the youngest ever, a person who made that, and I was in jail for my participation in the umbrella movement. In up to 2019, 2020, there was a huge and massive protest in Hong Kong. It was unbelievable. And at the peak of that, there were two million people marching down to its reach, which was more than one quarter of the population in pursuit for freedom and democracy. But it ended up, the government, the Chinese government was just way too powerful. And they had so much. much resources. And then they cracked down the whole movement. They issue a lot of draconian laws

that basically criminalized free speech and any sort of political freedom was gone. And I had to leave Hong Kong. So in 2020, I left Hong Kong and landed in the UK. On the next few days after I left, my name was literally on the wantter list. And then for now, I'm in the UK. I received the political asylum and have also been advocating for the freedom and democracy for Hong Kong and for China as well. Wow, that's absolutely incredible. Quickly, I just want to ask too, the thing that's really striking is one, I'm empathizing with you being such a young man at the time as well too. So I want to dive into that a little bit later. But I want to quickly expand upon in 2014, what was the initial kind of kickoff? What was it that sprung up? I imagine there was an event or something that like

really got people active and motivated? I think it's just a long relationship of democracy, Hong Kong and the Chinese government. So Hong Kong was originally a British colony, and it's been a colony for 150 years. And in 1997, Hong Kong was hanged back from the British government to the Chinese government. And by then, as you can imagine, China was rather like a. undeveloped poor country where they still were much more closed, repressive in terms of its politics and also its economy was not doing really well. And Hong Kong was already a relatively controversial and big financial center and there were so much insight in worries about

Hong Kong being governed by, quote and called a socialist government, which has completely different political ideology and how they govern the society compared to the Hong Kong people approach. So back then, Hong Kong people were really nervous and the Chinese government promised Hong Kong people that, look, like, I know you're nervous, so we are not going to change a bit of how you live your life. Plus, we promise you that you'll get freedom, democracy, and rule of law when you are under the Chinese governance. So we enter into a framework called one country two system and we signed the sign of British Joint Declaration to basically honour those promises and Hong Kong people were in fact they really didn't have a choice so they

had to suck it in and then it smoothly went through 1997 and up to around 2010 where Hong Kong people were like oh wait like you promised us so many things but they have not been realized so Hong Kong people started to become impatient, like asking for the Chinese government to honor their promises. And that basically was the basis of why Hong Kong people emerged in protest and the start of the democratic movement. So up to the 2014, that was actually a political debate on the political reform of how we elect our government and our legislature. So Hong Kong people they were saying, look, we want direct election. We wanted to be. able to elect who lead our city and also all the members of our legislature.

Obviously, Beijing reviews to comply, and that's the reason why there was a big movement emerged. I guess I'm wondering when you said that it was turned over to Beijing back in 1997, and obviously back then, Beijing, you know, the seat of the Chinese capital didn't have a huge interest in upsetting, muddying or rather upsetting the waters at the moment because, as you said, China was relatively poor, at least compared to how they are now, and Hong Kong's this thriving economic powerhouse that I assume they thought at the time, well, it benefits us more to kind of leave them be and let them do what they want to do. But of course, as China has

grown economically, I would imagine it makes more sense for the leadership of China to value their own power and making sure that that is not interrupted by protests from Hong Kong. And I would have to imagine that people in Hong Kong would have seen this coming for a very long time. So I wonder why more people didn't leave and why we didn't even see more people trying to get out during the protests. Yeah, that's a good question. So in the 80s and 90s, there were at least three waves of immigration from Hong Kong. One happened after Hong Kong was, Hong Kong's fate was sealed so that Hong Kong was about to go back to China. So there was a way for people leaving. And then it was after the 1989 massacre, Tiananamo massacre, and also just before the handover. So Hong Kong people have been

voting by foot. There are lots of people left. And also in the past three, four years, by estimation, there have been 300,000 to 400,000 Hong Kong people left. Many of them, they've come to the UK because the UK governments offer a humanitarian pathway so that if you were born before 1987 as a British colonial citizen, things like this, then you are given an opportunity to leave and get citizenship in the UK for six years. And then there are a similar pathway to Australia, to Canada, and to the US. So I imagine there actually a lot of people made, the choice leaving Hong Kong in order to just live freely,

because for now it's really politically suppressive. And there are also many of many people who, even though they had the idea of trying to enjoy freedom, but they just don't have the capacity, don't have the capital, don't have the skill set to leave and then to grow their life in another country. And that makes things tricky. Yeah, I mean, you listen to my, you know, subconscious bias.

You're like, oh, why did they just pick up and go? How hard can it be? How hard was it for you? It's really difficult, I would imagine, if you're not, like, really fluent in English, if you are in your, like, way beyond, like, 20s, 30s, if you are, especially having family, you have to start over, there are a lot of things that you have to over. come no matter the culture, language, livelihood, among many other things.

So even though there are so many people left for the past few years, there are, of course, cases where they struggle overseas and they need a little bit more extra help. So I would say that I've seen examples where, like, people who are not fluent in English, they've come over and struggle to get work, struggle to equip themselves with the skill necessary to just thrive in society. I'm curious then, too, even just specifically talking about your case, Nathan, as well, too.

You did get out and kind of twofold. I'm wondering if there's anyone that specifically was looking to get out of Hong Kong. If you had any lessons from that experience that you found valuable or insightful, or even more broadly speaking, if somebody's in a situation, because I, Maybe you were able to just kind of go out the front door. But I imagine with the heat that was on you and where it escalated from there, was it difficult for you personally to actually get out of Hong Kong? And do you have any lessons maybe for other freedom-minded people,

freedom activists around the world that if you need to escape, here's some things that I learned? It really depends on who you are in Hong Kong's case. There is still freedom of movement as long as the government doesn't target. you. So if you're targeted, then it pretty much, it depends like, there's a big possibility you may not be able to leave permanently. Maybe they will talk to you and then to grant you like a five-day visa out of Hong Kong and everything like this. It comes with no, like, there are all extra legal restriction.

There isn't, like, there is law trying to curtail people's freedom. But there's another way of doing business where they just by sheer power to intimidate you to just confiscate your passport to just say, look, if you left, then your families will suffer. Things like this. So there are many, many cases where, like, activists who are active overseas. still campaigning for freedom and democracy of Hong Kong and higher, like larger accountability of the Chinese and Hong Kong government

over the things that they've done, that their families in Hong Kong are harassed or some, some arrested. So for me, like, it really depends on, like, whether you know how big of a target you are, if you, if you haven't done things that really pick up the government's attention, pretty much it will be a smooth, like, transition. But if you are, then from the past experience, it's just better to figure it out how you can interact with the government and maybe make a move when they are less alarmed. Like, for example, you went to vacation for a few times, you come back on time, and then you're secretly planning to just leave permanently and then you take care of other things, like all the ramifications that may come after you left.

So it really takes planning to do it. Well, Nathan, I got to ask, you were part of the student protests, part of a student democracy organization. You were elected to a government position in Hong Kong. And, of course, I'm familiar with the oath scandal where you turned it into a question. So I would imagine, out of anybody there, Beijing probably had their eyes on you pretty hard. How did you get out? I mean, to my colleague, Nathan's point, did you just walk out the front door? Or? Well, I would say that I was really fortunate.

So before the really draconian, the national security law, basically criminalized all actions opposing the government. Before it was enacted, I managed to leave before that, a few days before that. So I was, I imagine I was just lucky enough to leave before they put my name on the blacklist. And in fact, for now, I'm wanted under the national security law with around $140,000 bounty. So anyone who can basically make the case like, like, make me arrested that they could claim that bounty for my arrest. Yeah, that I got to say that's pretty impressive. It's got to be a good opening line with the ladies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of like my asset. If you're bold enough to make a move. When you left, were you able to take any of your wealth with you? So I was just like with my backpack and my hand luggage and I formatted all electronic devices. And I didn't bring much to me because I don't want to look suspicious. and I had like a scenario where if they stopped me at a border, if I could not leave, if I arrest me on site, then I have minimal information that they can read from my electronic devices,

from either my kind of like social network or my knowledge on all sorts of things. So it was really a minimal personal belongings with me And then I flew to London and that's it I never looked back Okay Just incredible I'm curious then too So we had the protest kick off again in 2019

If I understand correctly And I did read that there was some Bitcoin donations Going to those people as well too at one point in time Which it's the perfect use case for these sort of scenarios This tyrannical governments And particularly financial censorship I'm curious for those that are still residing

that are trying to get things going on the ground there too, are they experiencing financial censorship? Are they being kicked off the banking systems and stuff at all? Is that being weaponized against the people in Hong Kong or no, they haven't made those kind of moves yet? It's definitely a big issue.

For example, many activist bank accounts are frozen even without proper procedure, without due process. There are worries about that like the government really canceling people's like financial accounts arbitrarily. And the fact that you, for example, donate money to the humanitarian organizations through those banking system, it also leaves paper track that the government actually, if they have access to those files, they go back and say, oh, at that period of time,

we donated that much amount of money and we are suspecting you are involved in these like criminal activities averting the state so yeah it is a true concern and um and many organizations many human organizations started to try to cope with that by a lot like accepting um uh um like, I think Bitcoin and other, and other additional assets for donation. So things like this, like the movement has is always trying to cope with all these restrictions. That's beautiful. I'm curious then too.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but are you, you are still in contact with the people there? Are you still actively involved or maybe just watching from a distance at this point? for now any communication of me with anyone inside of Hong Kong is quite dangerous for them so I mostly like act in the international stage and communicating with people who are overseas but of course I have my way to try to understand things inside and getting information from the people on the ground perfect okay so with what you are able to gleam from the information from what you're currently seeing I'm wondering what the current state of things between the kind of Hong Kong and Chinese relationships.

Have things gotten worse? Have they gotten better? Where are we currently at in this battle? Things got really bad for now. Compared to like five years ago when I left Hong Kong, there are more and more laws rolling out to just making sure the government has the power to eliminate any actions or signs that they think that the kind of democratic movement are coming back.

There are many people who are under arrest because of the national security law for just posting content online, saying something. There are a lot of speech crimes in Hong Kong now. There was a recent arrest. I think it's like a 22, 23-year-old person that he wrote something online, not inciting violence, not committing violence. He wrote something online about, oh, Hong Kong independence about the government

and then he's arrested under the law. So there are many, many cases like this repeating for the past few years and Hong Kong people are feeling like unsafe to speak up. So when you are entering an era where it's just white terror, people don't want to speak up again even though they have a lot of opinion

or how the government is doing like policy and all sorts of things. and politics, but they're not to speak up. So it's a huge problem in Hong Kong. I don't want you to have to name names, but are you familiar with anybody who has been kind of focused on by Beijing and still manage to escape Hong Kong in the last few years? As long as, um, so what they would do is like as long as you are kind of targeted, they would just find, they will fabricate a charge and arrest you and confiscate your passport.

So basically there is an overwhelming power for the government without due process when they arrested you. They can detain your passport a limited time. So even if you are not convicted, even if you have caught cases in two years, they can still manage to refuse you from leaving legally.

And there are ways that you can leave illegally, including on a boat trip, to Taiwan. So there were successful cases, but gradually the government also operate in many different ways trying to block that. For example, I've heard

those human trafficker like smugglers that they get the money, get the people on boats, and turn them to the government. Oh my God. And I've heard that more patrol were in place. and many different possible routes were busted. So we're talking about like a few years ago when I heard that.

But now, I don't think that is a feasible route anymore. Or maybe it has revived. I don't know. But it's fairly like just think about Hong Kong's geography. Like we are the only bordering land is China. And then it's all ocean. Like the three sides of Hong Kong is ocean. and then you're bordering China.

So graphically speaking, it's difficult. It's very difficult to leave illegally. And yeah, so you can see that put many Hong Kong activists in the very difficult situation. Bitcoin gives you back your time, so why not spend it having a blast, orange-pilling your family and friends with the ultimate Bitcoin board game. Blockhunters is a fast-paced adventure that mirrors how Bitcoin actually works. Anyone from Bitcoin beginner to season hoddler can play as one of ten characters, each highlighting a real-world use case. You'll fill the mempool of transactions, mine like a pro, and fight to fill the block to claim your Bitcoin reward,

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preaching required. Head to Blockhuntersgame.com by simply scanning the QR code or click the links below. Use promo code BTC mentor for 10% off. Are you still keeping Bitcoin on an exchange? Are you secure in your current Bitcoin setup? Are you confident that your wealth will be safely passed on to your children and their children. Feeling a bit overwhelmed? At Bitcoin Mentor, we've helped hundreds of people level up their security and fast-track their Bitcoin understanding. If you find that you simply don't have the time to go through all the tutorials,

the books, and the guides, you can book a free strategy session with me, Nathan, or any of her other great mentors at Bitcoin Mentor.io. Discover how Ben and the entire team at Bitcoin Mentor can help you accelerate your Bitcoin journey. Simply scan the QR code or click the link in the description down to the video. below. I know, I don't mean, Nathan, did you have a question? I don't mean to jump in here. No, go ahead. I know according to, you know, the turnover agreement back in 1997 when Britain seceded or ceded control to Beijing, it was supposed to be 50 years of a one state two systems policy

and that's supposed to expire in 2047, at which point Beijing gets kind of total control to do what they want. From the outside looking in, it seems that they basically already have all the control that they want and for all practical purposes, that's it. And I guess from my outside perspective, I don't envision it getting any better anytime soon. Do you see a scenario somehow in the future where this could get better? And if so, what might it take?

For now, I'm quite pessimistic about the prospects of Hong Kong getting better because back in like 80s, 90s, 97 or even early 2000, there was a need for the Chinese government to show that, oh, they are moving towards modernization. They are trying to be liberal. They're trying to implement factors of democracy. They are also part of the global community. And then there was a big policy change when Shishimi took power.

And for now, they are really, really confident in, going against the liberal system that we treasure. They're really belligerent in terms of trying to fight for global control. And they no longer say that, oh, we want to learn from democracy. It's that like they say that, oh, we are very comfortable with the authoritarianism that we have. So Hong Kong becomes less of an example that Beijing has to keep like the outlook of vibrant democracy, vibrant civil society and

a liberal place. So by not needing that is really difficult that Beijing has incentive to install factors of freedom and factors of democracy back to Hong Kong. So for now, I don't, I don't, I don't envision a route

that can bring more of liberties to Hong Kong near future. You mentioned that China I guess has less incentive to do it now and they're just kind of steam rolling their way through. I've seen it argued that if this were, say, 25 years ago, America, the UK, all part of the West, would have had much better, I guess, moral footing to say, hey, this is wrong, don't do this. But in many ways, we've kind of enabled authoritarian measures ourselves here in the West.

We've supported authoritarian regimes around the world. we've done icky things around the world to put it lightly. And it seems like many of us, at least Western governments, don't really have a moral high ground to stand on, never mind the fact that we've spent trillions of dollars in overseas wars, and it's hard to put on economic pressure as well. Do you think that has played a role in Beijing, being able to kind of move as fast as they have in kind of getting into Hong Kong

and putting their foot down? Yeah, that's definitely. something that I think many human rights activists are also concerned. So we're fighting for some ideals. Like we're not saying, oh, we wanted to assist certain countries to become greater than the others. We're hoping that countries can serve certain ideals that we all pursue, like democracy, respect to human stignities and basic rights, having a few free and fair election, having a strong and robust rule of law that are not submitted to any individual's personal,

political or any personal agenda, things like this. So we've got a list of things that we want all countries to go for because we believe that that is what we need to have a thriving society and protecting individuals' rights. But obviously, like for the past few years, the state of that pursuit has been doing those around the world. We've seen some drawbacks of democracy. And that is definitely alarming and concerning. So the best we can do is to keep our voice heard,

to keep the education going, to remind everyone that barely easy to lose freedoms when power is unchecked. And if you're not, like if you, you're not, cautious enough in what they're doing. So I think this is one of the lessons that Hong Kong people can tell the world.

That's beautiful. And I agree. I'm curious. I'm kind of on that same topic, what I'm going through my head is this idea that I'm wondering as someone who escaped this kind of tyrannical system that escaped from basically political persecution for fighting for democracy and for freedom to try and have that sort of liberal ideals. I'm wondering if any of the things that you're seeing in the Western countries are

concerning to you that we might be going down potentially a bad path. So I think of online censorship. It's definitely a topic of recurring in both the UK and I see it in Canada and the US as well too, kind of putting on pressures, at least limits in some way or fashion on freedom of speech. So two questions there actually is. One, I'm wondering if anything you're seeing from the Western world, especially from your vantage point, is concerning that we're going to we might be going in the wrong direction. And the second question I want to ask too is kind of going back, was there any sort of opportunity or mistakes made earlier on that you think would have put

Hong Kong in a better situation? And even just for example, like I find myself wondering, it's like, okay, with the ability with the relationship with the UK for a lot of people to get out, I wonder if in that sort of sense, unfortunately, had the negative consequence of the most freedom-minded people who were willing to take action ended up leaving early on rather than being there and available to fight because it was a low barrier to get to somewhere like Canada or the UK. Yeah, that's a good question. I would like to address the second question first.

I think many people left. On the one hand, of course, is because this oppression has surpassed their enduring capacity. but the other reason, which is the major reasons why many people leave, is their next generations. Most Hong Kong people who left are with young kids. And the education in Hong Kong was so brainwashing now that basically the way that they teach you about the Chinese Communist Party and Chinese government is like their greatest ever.

And you have to obey them because they are your kind of like, quote-unquote, masses. You have to learn their way and you have to be, grateful to them. This is the level that they're instilling. Yeah, could you expand upon that a little bit more? Because I'm sorry, you hit on something that I think is absolutely incredibly important. For me, from the liberty aspect, I very much so view that unless we can wrestle control of education back away from the state, if they get them young, like, that's an incredibly powerful. I'm wondering, maybe you can give us a little more

detail or examples of like, when this switch happened, what is the Chinese government doing to indoctrinate the kids in order to be subservient or at least okay with the current situation. Yeah, so after the protest, the government started to look into the education set and started to think about, oh, there were so many students came up protest and there were so many like really influential student leaders. There must be something going on in the education system.

So I think in two, three years ago, they did a reform. they started to abolish liberal studies, which it encourages kids to have critical thinking. And there's a public exam, so you have to take the exam. You have to make cases for both sides on different social issues. And they teach you concepts about freedom,

about democracy, about all sorts of the things that you talk about on TV. And they abolish that. Instead, they make into the curriculum about natural education. And the goal is to kind of consolidate the national identity about how proud to be a Chinese and learning about the current status of the country and its history and learning a very super-coated version of the history

that is about the current regime and make sure you are grateful to the states and to the regime. So there are many factors that are making into our education that makes families, like makes parents that are so nervous that they feel like that they had to leave. So this is one of the biggest reasons why Hong Kong people left. Is government school attendance mandatory in Hong Kong?

Like, are kids required to go to the government schools? They are mandated to go to schools. you can go to private one or government one, but they have to go to schools. Home schooling, extremely difficult if not possible. And I assume there's pressure on the private schools to teach a certain history of Beijing and the Communist Party of China.

Yeah, basically the political pressure put on private schools and public schools are equally huge. Gotcha. So they have to comply and certain version of history and understanding about current politics to the kids. Yeah, I'm guessing they just don't bring it up, but my immediate thought was how do they address Tiananmen Square? And my guess is that they probably just don't.

What are you talking about? I never heard of that, you know? Yeah, I know. I have teachers who we are friends told me that they, they dare not to teach anything about it. Like, when I was in high school, it was like, 14, 13 years ago, like my teachers talk about that. And my school was actually quite a kind of like pro-Beijing one.

And they could do it. But for now, even the most liberal school, they dare not to talk about it. Did they not make that move? You touched on something. So I want to jump back and expand some of those earlier points as well, too. But you touched on something, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on it. You mentioned that they teach them how great it is. to be Chinese. And what came to mind there was the identity that I wonder if they're trying to

enforce not a, I wonder, one, do people view themselves as Hong Kong or part of greater China? And because I would think that that would be a major issue for basically stability of China wants to get control of the region, that the first thing they have to do is kind of absorb it in the sense that, you're not, you're not Hong Kong, you're China and push that identity onto the population. I'm curious if that's something that you very much saw or see as well too. Yeah, that's a spot on observation. So in Hong Kong, we use the identity as an indicator of citizens' approval to the Chinese regime. So the more people who only see themselves as Hong Konger, the less approved the Chinese government and their governance in Hong Kong people's eyes.

and in the past years it has been a steady trend where more and more people identify themselves only as Hong Kong and then like Hong Kong Chinese big part of them like big part of the population identify either like Hong Kong or Hong Kong Chinese and there are just like a handful of people and if I've identified themselves as Chinese only so that really reflects that is a strong local identity and the kind of strong culture, strong history, strong identity rallying around in the city. And that really makes the Chinese government nervous about it. So indoctrinating Hong Kong people to just see themselves as Chinese instead Hong Kong is a big political project ongoing for the Chinese government.

That's very interesting. No, I, that's, yeah, it seems to be a recurring theme, like very, very subtle. even in Alberta right now too, we have a little bit of tensions with greater Canada. And you're seeing the same sort of thing where people that are identifying as Albertan, not identifying necessarily as Canadian. And that's a way of both kind of showing their displeasure and almost a tip of the hat looking for like-minded people that are concerned about maybe the way things are going there as well too. So jumping back to one of the earlier questions that I had on that note too.

And there may not have been anything. So I'm well aware that we're talking about basically a tiny region that is basically dominated by the UK. and then going over to China, you have two major nations negotiating at that point of time. There very well may have been nothing that could have been done. But in your estimation, if you had a second opportunity, a second kick at the can for this sort of thing while still being there, were there any obvious mistakes or things that could have been improved upon that maybe could have put Hong Kong in a better situation than it is currently today? And from what I hear, getting worse. Yeah. So there are lots of unfrozen documents documenting.

the negotiation process in the 80s from the UK government's point of view. And the UK government actually offered a lot of options, including, like, you have the transfer of sovereignty, but the UK government, keep the governance, etc, to try to just, like, to stabilize the situation and try to make sure Hong Kong people's liberties are not taken away. The only response from the Chinese government is, like, if you don't listen to us, we're in tanks. So, yeah, that's what it all comes down to. It's the man with the gun, just files at the end of the day.

Yeah, yeah, it's really brutal and straightforward. You look at the documents. So I will say that there was some attempts from the UK government to try to make a better deal. But as the UK government was already retreating from colonial history and also they are just like focusing on their domestic affairs, they didn't really put much pressure once they get these intimidation from the Chinese government. Of course, I will imagine that if they can expand their program, like, for example, allowing more Hong Kong people to have UK national citizenship so that they can leave at their own well. That may create more pressure to the Chinese government to do better. But I think that was indeed a very difficult sell and difficult task for the UK government

to do things as it's just so far away and they don't really have like good influence over the region. One of the biggest mistake that I felt that I still think is not just about the UK, but about the decisions of making China as part of WTO without much enforcement on their malpractices. They've been breaching over all these rules and there are no mechanisms. trying to hold them accountable. And the fact that the West had an overwhelming worst show thinking about China would go on the classic modernization of path, which means that if it gets wealthy, more middle class, the middle class are for rights of private property. And then there were more complied from the government and the democracy and individualized emerged because of the growing middle class. And that completely failed in

in China's context. And if we kind of have more sophisticated and understanding in China's politics, when like it was first to discuss in early 2000 or 2010, you, you, you, you, you, you're pretty much see that coming because they have a very particular political system and the things that you're feeding them entrenched their power instead of empowering the people to ask for more rights. So, um, I think putting your gods down, feeling like, like you poor money in China that they would just grow democracy was a big mistake like strategic mistakes from the West and like gradually in recent few years we've seen more awakening on that but probably a lot of damage a lot of damages are done and and is a bit too

late yeah that was the old Milton Friedman hypothesis you know you kind of like economic liberty take hold people get wealthier and they have less tolerance for government tyranny, but that doesn't always seem to be the case. No, no, yeah, it's definitely not in China. Do you think, I'm curious, one thing I wanted to touch on quickly as well, too, because even the idea that like, maybe it could have been so much better even if they were granted UK citizenship, because again, you're right. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the man with the gun, the tanks that can

roll in, can you actually defend if need be, can you actually engage in power projection or violence to do so? but had the Hong Kongers had UK citizenship, that anything the Chinese government would have been doing could have also been basically targeting a like an international citizen. There may have been much more blowback because they're actually doing it to a UK citizen, which could have maybe kept them in better check for a longer period of time.

I'm curious them even regarding the modernization. Because yeah, I generally would assume that like as the wealth grows, people are going to have more, as they're moving up the Maslow hierarchy of needs, as base needs are more better satisfied, we're going to go to different sort of levels. Is there, is there something, was it purely just the infrastructure in totalitarian control that was already in play? Or was there something else that you think that that idea of middle class to liberal modernization didn't play out in China? Was there something particularly unique to China that that wasn't going to be the case? Yeah, I think there are lots of factors influencing that one of them.

is just how much political instability in turmoil the country as a whole has gone through, especially in 60s and 70s, like the cultural revolution, the big leap forward. It really impoverished the whole country and everyone was living in high level of poverty. And when you just like gradually increase the quality of life and you kind of indoctrinated the idea that like the Chinese Communist Party is like the one and only legitimate source of power. And then when people feel like, oh, they put themselves, they put, like, they lived the whole country up from all these extreme property, given that it actually is, what's the cause for that, but they don't talk about it.

There was a huge validation to the regime, even up until now. and the vast network of the state apparatus purely built for just sustaining power. And also the ability for them to manipulate discourse, manipulate power, manipulate, organization. Everything combined makes the regime is incredibly stable. And once you are hands on and saying that, oh, you can, You can just work out your resources wherever you want, put any kind of like conditions or any guard rails on how you develop your country. It is almost for certain when there is that economic benefit to the country.

It will immediately turn into the Chinese government of safe favor and they can develop so many tools to just keep their power untouchable. So I think, yeah, there are lots of reasons why it kind of evolve as even like stronger authoritarian countries when there are more and more resources in people, even though people are getting wealthier, that may not change the fact that the government is in total control. No, absolutely. And one thing that I kind of thought about to as you were going through that and just remembering the history in the years prior is it almost seems like it was potentially a traumatized population coming into it, leaving them very susceptible to kind of that, at least the thought of a benevolent leader and benevolent teams taking care of things that would make them okay with it. The classic trade safety for security, right?

Yeah, yeah. Liberty. Liberty, thank you. Liberty for security. Thank you, Gary. The way some academics say, like, portray it is like the Chinese people just signed a taxic social contract with the government. As long as you grow the economy, we can trade it with our liberties. So when that taxed social contract is broken, which it could come because of the economy downturn in mainland China, how would that end up be?

That is an open-ended question. Oh, that's the old pitchfork metric we were talking about the other day on a previous podcast. How bad do things have to get before the people start taking out the pitchforks and go after the people in power? Well, this is a Bitcoin podcast. Now, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention. When we first invited you on, you said that you weren't particularly a big Bitcoiner necessarily. I don't know if that changed in the few weeks interim that we've had since. It did make me wonder, given the situation in Hong Kong, we always, often in the Bitcoin

space, we'll talk about Bitcoin is freedom money. Yeah. Because it's uncensurable. You can send it to anybody and nobody can stop it. I do wonder, and maybe it's greater than I imagine, but why it's not, why hasn't flourished more in Hong Kong than from what I understand it has. Do you have any idea why that's the case? Yeah, from a layperson's point of view.

view, I think, there are, like, first of all, I think many Bitcoiners, they just have no interest in, like, going into the city and just grow their business with the government. So there were a lot of stories coming out from the government that they wanted to build Hong Kong as like a Web 3 center, like a, like some tech policy. but I don't think there are many people picking that up just because of how precarious China's policy to Bitcoin and to the whole industry. Like one day they could ban it and the other day they could have like limited flow of it and then someday they were having different ideas about it. So I think like the how precarious the whole situation is a fact that like I think the how the industry perceived the place. but of course, like, I'm not from the industry

from a late person point of view, I think there are many new stories broke out in Hong Kong that portray these assets as like a scam. I think that there was like a lot of scammers like really tarnishing

the whole reputation of Bitcoin and and many other coins. And that really creates like, like, basically like, like feeling like that that was almost like, apart from like a high risk investment tool

and things like some people can scam you off. Like people don't associate it with something else. I think that is like a cutoff. problem. There are a lot of bad actors, especially in Hong Kong. I'm not, I'm not sure whether that is the same context in some other places where like you've got these tools that are so decentralized and they're great in terms of evading government censorship and surveillance. But there are some bad actors taking advantage of it and then to create a bad name of it. So it creates a certain cultural hurdle for normal people to go into the industry and try to understand

a little bit more. So that is like the general emphyria that I can feel from from a person who operates not in the industry, but just like living their daily life. That's so interesting too. I feel like it's a double-edged sword to the number go up aspect of it. Because you're right. Like for us, it's very strictly Bitcoin only of you, everything else is a scam. Everything else is a scam.

And there's a ton of scammers in the Bitcoin space as well too because it's a final settlement bearer instrument. So if you can trick somebody into handing it over, you're going to leave them potentially in a bad position. And I guess that, you know, often a lot of times, it's number go up, right? You see price moving and that was get people excited. And then they come into the space and then they will hopefully stay for the freedom go up aspect, right? They'll stay for the anti-censorship, for the self-sovereignty, for the liberty, everything that's associated with it as well, too. But the flip side of that being is that if they see the crash, it's kind of the opposite effect.

The number might be bringing them in. It might be also scaring them off. And it's, it's unfortunate. And then hopefully there's people on the ground there that can, that are involved or can be more involved as well too because even here in Canada, I picked up on a road down earlier in the conversation as well too talking about freezing bank accounts, right? And you think about that as something as it like happens, you know, in China, China's clamping down. We had the bank accounts in Canada frozen during our protest back in 2022. Yes, they were freezing. We had protesters that were going to the capital in Canada in order to protest the COVID lockdown mandates and everything that was going on there. And so there was a ton of donations.

nations and people that were not only people that were actively involved in the protest, but also individuals that were donating to the protest. The Canadian government shut them down and froze their bank accounts. And interestingly enough, I was giving a talk on this not too long ago, but there was, if I remember correctly, $12 million were donated to the Canadian protests through GoFundMe. GoFundMe said, nope, we're not giving that money. They basically seized the money and they never handed it over. originally said that they were going to give it to other worthy causes, but under threat of litigation, they just refunded the individual donors.

So then another one, it was Give Send Go, raised, I believe, $13.1 million to donate to the Canadian truckers, to the freedom protests here. And surely enough, they said, no, we're not to judge. We're going to give the money to his intended recipients. As soon as the money crossed into Canada, hit a Canadian bank, just frozen, just done, right? So neither of those got there. It was only Bitcoin. There was $1.2 million in Bitcoin donations. It was the only digital payments mechanism

where the money actually got to the intended recipients. But to your point, there's so much noise in the space, there's so much distractions. It's a new concept, right? I don't know where I pick this up, but I often say that it's everything that you don't know about computer science combined with everything that you don't know about money, right?

It's a big learning curve. It's not that complex, but there's a lot of moving pieces. And it scares a lot of people off. Unfortunately, from those that might actually be able to use and utilize it most. I'll even just share another story. Without doxing him,

I have a friend who was living in China during COVID. And things were getting worse. And he had a Canadian citizenship. And so he was looking to get out and take his family out. If it wasn't for Bitcoin, I hope he listens, he knows who he is. If it wasn't for Bitcoin,

he would have been completely screwed. He had a business. He had money and wealth there as well, too. He was able to take the entirety, basically, of his net worth with his family and his carry-on bag and the overhead compartment and get out of China with it intact. I think that anti-censorship power is something that particularly, like, for people like yourself, for those that are still in Hong Kong and fighting for this, that I want them to know about it. I want to know that it's money that no one can stop you from sending and that no one can seize from you.

Doesn't mean they can't make your life difficult. you know, there is 6102 gold seizure in the U.S. Doesn't mean they can't try, but it is another tool that the Human Rights Foundation is using and then hopefully more freedom activists will get involved with as well too. Gary, or Nathan, Judge, what are your thoughts on that? No, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think Human Rights Foundation is a very active actors in promoting financial freedom and the use of Bitcoin among, like, of course, some other cryptocurrencies, like, there definitely debates in like, which serve what purpose. But I think Bitcoin is definitely a big thing in the discussion. But as you said, there is relatively high technical ball

for people to use it, especially because not because it is technical, but because it is a new concept. And the concept associated some bad actors. So I think there are lots of advocacy work that we have to do to just like talk about it. Even for me like one of the humanitarian foundations I'm working with the bottom tree aids, which they provide cash aid to political person as families, to let them to pay for their travel to visit the inmates and also buying like daily supplies to them,

etc. They take cryptoes and mostly Bitcoin's as donations. But it is it is they also offer ways to pay in cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. But I don't think there are many people picking that up, even there in Hong Kong. So definitely it is not a problem of the Bitcoin itself is not a problem of whether it's safe or whether it is useful, etc. There is a huge cultural hurdle and efficacy that we have to do to make sure people understand, of course, a bit of technical side of it, but also like how important it is when you're living in an authoritarian regime. So yeah, that is a big, I think it's a big challenge, but I think having that freedom

back is really important. Completely agree. Gary, give me one second and I promise I'll stop hogging the mic. Yeah, no problem, man. I thought was very interesting. And Nathan, you can correct me if I'm wrong or if it doesn't apply to Hong Kong necessarily as well, too. But I was curious the other day. So I was looking into which country is the largest holder of like retail gold, like jewelry. And my assumption was that I thought it would be India. I thought India would be the biggest retail buyer of gold. But I was wrong, at least from the information you're seeing is that

it was China. And so that leads me to think that it may, hopefully it applies to Hong Kong as well too, but it's at least a demographic of people that are familiar with the arguments for sound money. And that might be, under different circumstances, might be primed to receive that message.

I'm just curious if that's even something that you've seen in your time as well too, is that people are aware of kind of currency debasement and sound money. If that's something that's on their radar? So that is a very real use of goal, which when people get married, they send, like, I think they will buy a ton of goal and then to get it as like a gift when they're getting married. So like I think that has a

big part of why there's a lot of gold in use. It's not just like for investment or like just another form of currency. So yeah, I mean, I think as far as I know, there's still some education advocacy work needed in that space to just make people rethink about what is money, like what is a currency. And does it mean that you can, oh, the only thing that matters is like whether you can buying an ice cream on the street or you can like things like this so um yeah definitely that and i think like to be honest this is it is an uphill battle because sometimes like uh some bad ads is tarnish that reputation and it's difficult to build back um but i think is a is a

fight worth fighting so um i'm also closely i'm paying attention to human rights foundation's work in that space, I've joined some of their panels, listening to some user case, like in Philippines, in Nigeria, and many other protesters. They have a good user case. And there are some cool projects which are ongoing, including, I've heard about like a mining project where they built in a remote area in, I think, Southern Africa.

And then they actually build a gridless. like build the grit and then and then to help those people to get them some some jobs but also getting power stable to them like many many other cool projects that are ongoing and doing good things to the humanities that are noticed um i think if those things becomes more apparent and and more talks about them more hibes about it i think the idea of Bitcoin not only just like an investment tool, which I think many people who are in possession of Bitcoin do feel like it is an investment tool, but it is actually an liberating tool and that can do good to humanity. And like if we, if that isn't like an overwhelming understanding of the for the later to like a tool that can liberate and the tool that can do good to humanities. and if the mainstream discussion is just about, oh, what would it hit like $400,000 next year? Yeah, price go up. That's it.

Yeah, it's, I mean, like, it's difficult for people to sit in different ways. That's just my observation. No, that's a wonderful point. And I'm so glad to hear that you've been paying attention to the Human Rights Foundation as well, too. That warms my heart. I do have a couple more questions, but I've been hogging to Mike. Gary, is there anything that you want to ask Nathan right now? I did have a question, but if you have a pertinent follow-up right now,

if you want to hit it. Go ahead, man. No, you go for it and I'll jump back in. I'm going to steal your question, which you kind of came up. But before we got on the podcast, and forgive me, my audio went out for about five minutes earlier. So if you guys already covered this, please tell me. But a lot of people live under tyranny. A lot of people in Hong Kong lived under tyranny. And yet you are one of the people that decided to make a stand. You are one of the people that decided to put your life and your reputation on the line. There, you know, There's that quote which is often attributed to Edmund Burke. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

And you, you tried to do something. Why you? What made you out of other people decide you were going to take a stand on this and you're going to put a lot on the line for it? Yeah. Why? Why are you? Yeah, yeah. I think many on-com people also did make a stand.

The largest quote has over two minutes. people. So many Hong Kong people try to come out and protest against tyrannily. But for me, I think there are lots of unexpected turns of life. That made me really deep in the social movement. For example, when I was a college freshman, I went for the election of the head of the student union. And at that time, I was just feeling like, oh, it would be a one-year- thing and after that I will learn some guitar, learn some other languages like going to exchange and fix my great things like this. But eventually

that year collide with one of the biggest civil disobedience movement in Asia and the protests exploded and people were looking into student leadership and that was the reason why I became a public figure and then there there were many, many other incidents. So I would say that I made my choice and the time pretty much picked me to become who I am.

And I've wrote a book, the name is called Freedom, How We Lose It, and How We Fight Back. And there's also an eminomelated documentary about my life, who is afraid of Nathan Law. And they kind of like depict the path that I've chosen in a way to look into it, look into it, with like a reluctant hero. Kind of, yes, like I tried to do something, but I actually wasn't prepared for that. It was because time changes. It was because in that era,

there were some seats that people have to fill in. And I happened to be there with the certain capacity and skill set, etc. and I think I've been through in really like meaningful life and for me like I couldn't have imagined where I am like 15 years ago when I was a kid or when I was studying in high school. Yeah, I don't know. Why? Why I mean?

Maybe it's just because of the time and maybe it's just because I just keep going even though things are turning really. Fair. Totally fair point. Nathan, did you want to jump in with yours? Because I'm happy to follow up. If you have something, do you want to jam? No, go for the follow-up. I'm going to leave mine. I assume it's not even a great follow-up, but I assume it's safe to say that if you had to do it over again, would you do anything different? Yeah, so I'll approach that questions like in the Avengers, like Dr. Strange, where they envision.

like five like i think it's at the end game yeah it's like 14 million different scenarios yeah yeah only one of them many many different scenario and and like if i do the same practice i would still consider the life that i'm having it's it's the most meaningful one of course it's it's definitely one of the most difficult one of the most um turbulent and you you have a lot of setbacks people don't like you people like you ups and downs etc But I think, like, there are many, there are many things you can avoid in life. Like, suffering is one of them. Putting hard work is one of them.

You can never just go for happiness. There are lots of things that come to with course. And I think the best indicator of how life is, is like, whether you create meaning. And for me, like, this is the meaningful life that I've experienced. then I, of course, like, there are lots of things that I, I don't feel like I did perfectly. Like, for example, when I was young, I let a legislative office with 15 staff, and I wasn't able to be the best line manager. I wasn't able to be the best person who listened to everyone's concern and trying to make their potentials grow, like to, like, there are lots of things I could have done better, but I think it's just,

You could have bought Bitcoin. I'm just saying. Wow, that is absolutely true. If I could have like, yeah, learn it in 2016 when I got my first paycheck as a legislator and I put it all in. Like, yeah, there are lots of things. But, yeah, I think at every stage of my life, I was just trying to be the best of who I am with the information that I had and the best judgment I had. Like there's one one thing that I felt uncomfortable like talking about past decisions. It was we're always looking at like retrospect.

Like you knew, you know what the consequences are. You know what happened afterwards. You know all the information that you didn't have when you made that decision. And that really like put people in a very difficult spot. Like there's you can always make better decisions with more information and know like what, what are the aftermath. of your decisions, right? But for me, like, every time I think about it, I always just feel like,

done my best with the information that I had, and most of the time I follow my consciousness. I follow my ideals that guided me through, and that's the best that I can do. Yeah, that's fair. And I think you make a great point, how important living a meaningful life is. I mean, it is, to me, to some degree,

and I think it is for many people, maybe not all people, but happiness is fleeting. You know, you get an ice cream or, you know, go on a fun ride or watch a movie. It's nice for a little bit, but living a meaningful life, that's something even becomes a little bit of pain. So, you know, good on you. Congratulations. Yeah.

Beautiful. So Nathan, before we wrap things up here as well, too, we got a little bit of time left here. I want to ask first and foremost, for anyone that very much so empathizes with the people in Hong Kong and wants to help, is there anything that international donors, support? supporters, what should they be doing? How can they help people in this situation to maybe stop it from getting worse? Yeah, I'm a part of the organization called Bohemtree aid that, as I said, they have cash aid to political prisoners and their families. So this is the most direct help that we can offer to just help them go through all these things. On top of that, just pay attention to what's happening in Hong Kong

and also China. And I think there are lots of campaigns. around trying to put more accountability to Hong Kong, China, and those are the things that we should care about. Beautiful, thank you. And lastly, where can people go to find your book, your work, give us all the information? The documentary as well. The documentary, yes.

Yeah, yeah. So my book is on Amazon or the major bookstore is called Freedom, How We Lose It and How We Fight Back. And the documentary is on PBS. And it's also on Amazon. You can rent it or buy it. it and is nominated for I think

best document like best political documentary at Emmy Awards so in June I would know whether I will win the prize but I'm incredibly proud of the team and the results of it

beautiful and Twitter or social media anywhere else? Yeah Nathan Law KC you can get it on all social media exact TikTok If you enjoyed this episode with Nathan Law, please do like and subscribe and check out the previous episode with Lenores Canezy on raising freedom-focused kids.