BTC Sessions - Why The Genius Act JUST FORCED U.S To Go ALL-IN On Bitcoin | Parker Lewis, Rob Hamilton, TC

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Is the Genius Act a covert attack on Bitcoin—or the spark that sends it to all-time highs? Parker Lewis and Hamilton dive into what this legislation really means for Bitcoin’s future and why it has everyone talking.FOLLOW TODAY’S PANELISTS:https://x.com/parkeralewishttps://x.com/Rob1Hamhttps://x.com/Meditation_ManFOLLOW BTC SESSIONS on X/Nostr: x.com/[e-mail] private one-on-one sessions with BITCOIN MENTOR! Learn self custody, hardware, multisig, lightning, privacy, running a node, and plenty more - all from a team of top notch educators that I've personally vetted.https://bitcoinmentor.io/—------------------------------SHOW SPONSORS:BITCOIN WELL - BUY BITCOINhttps://qrco.de/bfiDC6COINKITE/COLDCARD (5% discount):https://qrco.de/bfiDBVAQUA WALLEThttps://qrco.de/bfiD8gNUNCHUK HONEYBADGER INHERITANCEhttps://qrco.de/bfiDARHODLHODL NO KYC P2P EXCHANGEhttps://hodlhodl.com/join/BTCSESSIONDEBIFI LOANShttps://qrco.de/bfiDCpCRYPTOCLOAKShttps://qrco.de/bg5Dvo#btc #bitcoin #crypto

The Genius Act to regulate stable coins just passed with massive support, but what does this mean for Bitcoin? Currently, U.S. markets are losing their mind. Circle Internet Group, a stablecoin giant gunning for Tethers thrown, IPO just two weeks ago, and its stock has exploded from $31 to $210. That's a 577% surge. But here's the million Bitcoin question. Is this bad news for Bitcoin? The U.S., the ultimate shik coin master, might be able to juice up demand for dollars in debt,

all while gearing up to buy Bitcoin with the freshly printed trash. Senator Lumas's Bitcoin Act still needs to slug through committee review, floor debates, and votes in both the House and the Senate, but some lawmakers previously speculated that it could pass as early as August of this year. That's just 44 days away. The stakes couldn't be higher. The U.S. is straight up stealing Tethers' playbook and cranking it to 11. Step one, print and sell dollars. That's the Genius Act that just passed. Step two, stack a million Bitcoin as stated in the upcoming Bitcoin Act. Is this their endgame? This could be a disaster for the billion still not on the Bitcoin life raft. Time to front run the governments is fast running out. Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, we have creator of timechain calendar.com,

Mr. T.C., the miniscript master, Mr. Rob Hamilton, from Anchor Watch, and couldn't be more fitting, the author of Gradually Than Suddenly the Always Wonderful Mr. Parker Lewis. Don't miss out on the critical insights to prepare you for what's coming next. I'm Nathan with the BTC sessions, and this is your bullish session. All right. Let's go ahead and get everybody in the room. We've got Mr. Rob Hamilton, T.C., and Parker Lewis. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. I want to immediately start off by kind of getting your thoughts on the Genius Act passing what you think it means. And you know what? Let's kick it off. Maybe Rob, I'll get you to start on that one. What do you think about it? Yeah, I think it's just a general posturing. If you maybe compared this to maybe four, six, eight years ago of the U.S. government doing anything touching cryptocurrency at all. all. Like this is definitely showing a seat change and, you know, probably almost coming up on a decade of work of trying to lobby, educate, you know, lawmakers and getting them to step into

the arena. Overall, I think, you know, stable coins as a technology are here to stay. They have obvious product market fit. When you actually look at larger cryptos in industry, it's one of those things that have come out of the larger crypto industry that just very much have a lot of interest. You can see that also now with the public markets like you mentioned with the Circle stock like rallying forward. Ultimately, I viewed as just, you know, everything is good for Bitcoin, bullish in the sense of just getting more market structure, more confidence and certainty in how stable coins can be legislated. All, I think, helps even help with capital onboarding flows into getting Bitcoin as well. Not completely agree. T.C., what do you think about it, man? Yeah, I understand

people's sort of bent towards looking at it as a bullish thing overall. I agree with Rob. everything seems to eventually be bullish for Bitcoin. Me personally, I'm sort of in a stance of extreme skepticism about stablecoins in general. I think this is really just a stealth CBDC kind of, you know, maybe not the kind of CBDC people were talking about five years ago where the central banks are issuing it, but this certainly looks to me like the next length of road the can will be kicked down to extend, you know, Fiat's reign. So, you know, it's a mixed bag for me. I have a hard time getting too excited about all the sort of shit-coining that I think it's going to kind of proliferate

in the aftermath of this bill passing. But we'll see. No, it's a very, very good point. Parker, your thoughts on the Genius Act? Yeah, I think, you know, everything like Rob said, everything's good for Bitcoin. I think that this one's honestly like probably marginal um the most interesting thing that will come of it is it's like you know the meme where the two people are fighting and somebody sitting in the back ripping a bomb hit yeah like the two people fighting are going to be tether in usDC um and and bitcoin's just going to continue to march along i do think it's like people we see this on on zap right side from what what people ask us about like people

ask us for stable coins specifically in the mining ecosystem of bitcoin and so there there is a utility to them obviously i think that the bitcoin is the most important thing and that my view is that congress probably should have prioritized the bitcoin act over over the genius act but um i think that it is by um not that's the association but because it's adjacent that it's uh it's positive for ushering in the regulatory clarity around Bitcoin in the United States. But I think that the Bitcoin Act, assuming that it passed, but if it were to pass, would be the more important thing for creating regulatory certainty for Bitcoin in the U.S. So I think it's positive because of the adjacency. At the end of the day, I don't really have a need personally for stable coins.

I could save it in another version of the dollar if I wanted it to and choose to save all of my monetary savings in Bitcoin. No, that's beautiful. I agree with you gentlemen. And even for me too, I think there's a bit of a, it's almost like a psychological indicator. Like I imagine that a lot of the lawmakers and even people that aren't familiar with Bitcoin would view kind of like stable coins and Bitcoin as a very similar sort of product. So their support for the one would lead me to believe that we have a higher likelihood of the Bitcoin Act passing than maybe previously I would have thought. And then additionally, things like aqua wallet where you've got that side by side of kind of savings and spending. I really like the implications of that. If more, if people outside the U.S. start viewing Bitcoin and the U.S. compared to their chic-coin fiat currency as kind of their better options. Again, I think it normalizes kind of using these things and hopefully brings more people over to Bitcoin. Plus, they're paying attention than maybe to the price comparison and the additional savings that they'd get there. The other kind of thought I have, which I don't really know which way it goes, is it kind of

feels like getting all your enemies in one location. I think this strengthens the U.S. dollar, but it speeds up the downfall of other comparative fiat currencies and that more people would be, as it's easier to have dollars, starting to pile into that one. So rather than having to take out, you know, the Canadian dollar, the euro, everything else there as well too, we'll see more people moving on to the U.S. dollar. It's only kind of one big final boss that we necessarily have to get past.

But anyways, those are just my thoughts. Gentlemen, you know the show. This is why are we bullish. We're going to talk about all the reasons why we're excited in Bitcoin today. I'm going to give everybody the same question, the same question that we talk about every week, every guest, every time. I'm going to start with you, Rob. Why are you bullish?

bullish on just building on Bitcoin. There's so much that's happening right now behind the scenes across several fronts. One, just throwing off the top all the stuff that we're doing at Anchor Watch, leveraging Mnisccript and just kind of finding new ways to offer value to anyone in the ecosystem for keeping their Bitcoin safe. You also have Arcade, which announced, which is the Arcade OS, which is coming from the Arc Labs team that are able to basically emulate a lot of functionality. They are using Musig and Schnorr signatures from Taproot under the hood to be able to offer streamlined signing.

And their ability to co-sign is really just a great way for being able to provide extra scaling on chain. I'm also wearing my simplicity shirt today. Simplicity is about to go active on Liquid Mainnet, which allows for a whole new, just smart contracting design surface to be able to do new things. And I think it's a great time to be thinking about products and services that you may want to see in Bitcoin. And I'd encourage you go out there and start building on it. There's a lot of opportunity out there. There's also activation talk around, you know, exploring and turning on checks atgram stack and CTV

and just having just conversations with developers and understanding like what does the future of Bitcoin look like. Across the spectrum, though, that's the only one that requires a consensus change. Everything else, though, arcade, what we're using with Mnisccript, you know, simplicity activating. These are all things that are going to be able to help design and kind of build the new financial future. we've already seen some fragments of this of people using liquid as a peering channel for the lightning

network to offer faster swaps right so just kind of using the full design space out there to build really cool products and just make bitcoin easier more accessible to people all around the world it's just really exciting and bullish for me no that is very cool very cool i'll start with you tc i'm kind of curious your thoughts on uh on rob's reason for being bullish well i was in a x spaces this morning listening to the anchor watch crew described their new inheritance planning product, which is just, you know, protocol driven and amazing. I mean, I actually get wildly hopeful about the future when I think about the, how far it's actually come in the years that I've been in Bitcoin. It's astounding how much the

tools have advanced and what the options are for people who want to use Bitcoin, how they can actually integrate it in more meaningful and sophisticated ways into, you know, the needs that everybody has. And so just this kind of stuff gets me super excited. Not all these products are something that I would use personally, but I instantly think of just dozens of people I know personally that would really benefit

from these kinds of things. And so I just, in general, I'm incredibly bullish on all the building that's going on, absolutely. That's beautiful. Parker, what are your thoughts, my friend? On Rob's bullishness. On Rob's bullishness, yes, and his wonderful reason

for being bullish today. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, what they're working on at Anchor Watch, first and foremost, and minisccript in the wild, I think that's super bullish. We got to catch up. Rob was in Austin over the weekend, so we got to riff on that a bit. So definitely super bullish on what they're building there and what it means for custody in general, but also just allowing more people to achieve self-custody.

in ways that de-risk how, you know, the negative adversarial things that can happen. Secondarily, love people building on second layers or side chains like liquid or arcs. I think continuing to push the bounds there, working on Bitcoin payments. You know, we integrate other wallets. but so we're really dependent on what other wallets adopt, but we're certainly opinionated. And so I think just more focused on the transactional layer of Bitcoin is bullish for Bitcoin. So we'll just reiterate those two things that Rob put out there. Beautiful, beautiful.

Rob, I'm curious maybe from what you listed to, if there's a particular example, if you can maybe give us like the implications for someone who's maybe new to the space of how it's going to make things easier or which one maybe even just stands out as your favorite kind of possible feature ad or hurdle we're getting out of the way that Spark, you know, like. Yeah. I mean, just to do really abbreviated, the miniscript stuff, it was actually the last time I was on. I was why I was bullish was minisccripts. So I'm not going to make it a whole mini script show. But just being able to with Bitcoin as it exists today, without any consensus changes, enabling good developer tooling and experience to offer people in wallets, things like time locks and different spending paths. The idea that your Bitcoin

address has one way you can spend from it is very much. the kind of like the first like territory to go conquer and thinking about like a single signature or a multi-signature. But the idea of incorporating time as part of your security where you could have, let's say, a two of three. But if the funds haven't moved in a year, maybe you want it to be one of three, right? Or maybe you want to make it two of four, bring an extra recovery key in there. That's a whole open design space there. Simplicity is actually something that the Blockstream team has been working on for, I think, almost a, you know, a decade. I'd have to go back and look at the start of it, but at least, you know, seven, eight years.

And that actually is at a fundamental principle, all of anything you'd want to program in a programming language. It actually drives down to like mathematical proofs. And when you construct smart contracts with simplicity, you can actually do formal proof verification that the way you want the smart contract to behave is exactly the way you coded it up. So you just have better foundational computer science

and mathematical principles and designing whatever you want. And whatever that you want that to be, right? And so those are like the big buckets of like interesting things of really the world is your oyster in thinking about how you can do that. Liquid too also handles things like confidential transactions. So you can actually for privacy sake, obfuscate like how much is being sent and received within a single transaction, which is really handy too. But, you know, I think about lending protocols. I think about trading. I think for payments with liquid, the fees are so low that you're able to use that almost as like a liquidity partner for being able to facilitate.

a bunch of off-chain transactions and then batching them on-chain. Those are all really powerful primitives. Liquid and simplicity, but also liquid itself also just has covenants of being able to do things like with Arc and being able to reduce the interactivity for doing higher-scaling payments. So you need less your wallet actually to be online to do the co-signing is a great unlock as well. And then just Arc in general, just kind of extending and building on top of the Lightning Network. There's this really just interesting concept. Someone employed at Anchor Watch, but it's definitely done with Arc as a

well where the ARC server is kind of co-signing transactions. Oh cool. And that idea of the co-signing, Anchor Watch does this too, where we have to co-sign a transaction to basically release funds during the length of the insured vault. That allows us to enable certain levels of governance, like maybe rate controls or whitelisted addresses, like things like, hey, if I'm going to withdraw from my deep cold storage, I only wanted to go here, not any address on the Bitcoin

network, which is we're basically emulating what a covenant would look like, where you're kind of restricting where funds can go. in the future. And being able to, you know, show proofs of Colin Sheph at execution of that now with co-signing is just a really great way to just demonstrate the power of that technology. And we're able to do it today without doing any fork or change whatsoever. Man, it's unbelievable the goal. And I got to say, I really like miniscripting what you guys are doing there at Anchor Watch in particular, because I feel like one of the biggest hurdles for people coming in here is the unbelievable self-responsibility you have to take with Bitcoin and giving

them like, hey, by the way, if you really screw this up, just wait a year and we'll be okay. to just even if they never have to use that to give them that piece of mind, that optionality to get them to feel comfortable to start to get into the space, to learn more to start play with it. And yeah, I absolutely love, like, I love my Aqua Wallet for just using Lightning and a little there as well too. And the simplicity of having confidential transactions to give everybody a little bit of privacy without having to really learn too much, not that something like Wasabi and CoinJoin

is overly that complicated. But again, if you're new to the space, it's a very easy way to say, hey, by the way, you could use this and it's going to give you a little bit more privacy. I'm always very, very, very bullish on that and those sort of tools. You touched on lightly there. covenants in CTV. I don't want to completely derail things, but I'm kind of curious, and I'll start me with TC there.

With the recent fiascos in terms of what we're going to do in terms of operative, if you don't have to get into that at all. I'm just curious, if I've heard a lot of people much smarter than me make wonderful cases for covenants. Do you think T.C, it's possible that we could maybe get

a software change with Covenants down the line. Would you even want to, or what's your kind of view on it right now? I have been a big fan of CTV particularly, but covenants in general for the last couple years. My understanding is this really unlocks sort of the next evolutionary step of lightning and a lot of other layer two's. My understanding is ARC would benefit greatly from covenants being on layer one Bitcoin.

So yeah, I'm a huge fan of the proposal itself and just the promise of what covenants bring. I think it's actually a very interesting time right now in the aftermath. of all this opertern sort of conflict, I think the odds are actually a little bit lower that we would get something like this, maybe this year. I think there's a lot of people that have sort of adopted a kind of ossification stance in the context of looking at changes to Bitcoin's consensus. So it's a tough one, but I am encouraged by how many people,

people have really dug in and taken a closer look. And there is actually quite a cohort of really strong supporters of CTV. And I do think eventually we will have it. I'm just not sure it'll be this year. I think we might have to wait for the next bear market and everyone's board again. We might be able to come together on that and make covenants a thing. Parker, I'm curious if any of any thoughts on covenants. I mean, so I'll reserve judgment.

After having to get up to speed on operative, because I saw enough people whose views that I respect pushing back and then and then ultimately agreeing with them or aligning with them that I'm hearing a lot of support for it. I don't see a lot of dissent but I'd be more interested. I'm not prepared to say either way. I don't have a strong opinion but for this point at least knowing that I really respect their opinion. I don't see anybody dissenting but I am curious like maybe Rob what is the I haven't seen a lot of steel manning of like hey what is is the risk of this you know because the where I do see pushback is changing of minor

incentives and more often without the incentive coming back on but yeah you know I would feel like the people that are putting forward a change and always enabling things is positive but I think it's also incumbent on those people to articulate what all the the risks are and changing incentives absolutely yeah so the general bucket of covenants, there definitely are concerns with as you increase the functionality of the layer one protocol, that you actually could in some way advantage certain minors to do something called minor extracted value, MEV. And then there's a whole segment of that called Meval, where it's kind of like malicious attacking. And that's in the general bucket. It's actually, as of today,

why I'm hesitant to be supportive of something like cat, like concatenating, I think provides a much more complicated design system to fully, while the code itself is simple. The design space of what you change is very vast, whereas on, that's like one end of the spectrum. On the other end of the spectrum, you would have CTV. And rather than it being kind of arbitrarily constructing different elements of a contract data for transactions, all you're doing is you're emulating that I've pre-committed that it can go to this next hop. And if you're pre-committing that something can go to the next hop, you greatly reduce kind of like the arbitrary complexity

of how you can arrange transactions. Like the example that usually gets mentioned about like in Ethereum and why. And it's an important concern to have, right? Because the core premise of Bitcoin is that anyone in the world could have a source of power in an ASIC. And they can plug that thing in. And by default, they're going to have within like very much like the same economic block construction that any other miner would have, right?

Bitcoin mining should primarily be a game of finding cheap power and like reliable, like power contracts or power sources and having access to the capital of the A6, it shouldn't turn into this meta game of I have a crack team of software devs who are able to make extra money more than anyone else because we're doing a bunch of analysis on the pending transactions in the men pool to make extra money than anyone else, right? And that's actually what you saw happen in Ethereum, where even like as the migraine over proof of steak, you would get to this position where there were only like maybe one or two block constructors because they were the ones who had the most advanced algorithms, if you will, to be able to organize blocks. And then you would choose them because if you were mining or even with proof of stake, whatever you were validating, you were in a position where you had to go to them. Otherwise, you were just taking like a 20% haircut or whatever the final numbers were.

I forget the exact math. So to take round trip that back to CTV specifically is most narrowly scoped. Now, things that would be at risk is if you misconfigured your hash commitment, you could break your money. To be fair, that's not maybe the strongest steel man, because I also can just like make an address and like not have the keys. And then I brick my money, right? So like that's just with any kind of change and anything you add,

it's possible for you to be able to do that. I've been following discussions on the mailing list where people have been talking about it more recently. And a lot of like the pushbacks and concerns is like, well, if we're going to make a change to Bitcoin, is CTV actually what we want? Or do we want to spend more developer time iterating on a more thoughtful, more advanced way of doing it?

Because CTV has been around for five years with the code not changing. People, you can look at that both ways. Some people would say, wow, in five years it hasn't changed, it's really strong. The other side of that, to steal man against it, it would be like, listen, in five years, we've learned so much more about how blockchains operate in general and our understanding of Bitcoin as a network.

Maybe it's best to go to a clean slate and start again, right? And then another argument, too, is just you can emulate, you can emulate CTD. Like I mentioned, like in a way, we're kind of emulating it today because we co-signed like a pre-commitment of you'll only send to this address. Us co-signing, we effectively already emulate that. And when we had time locks, effectively, before we added the time lock op codes in 2015, 2016, we were able to emulate those

with, Satoshi actually originally put in a lock, a time lock field in Bitcoin transactions. So you were able to emulate time lock behavior before it actually went live on the network. So part of that pushback too is like, well, if there's so much demand for it, why aren't we seeing people emulate that at scale today? So those will be the steel man cases of, are the, I would say concretely the steel man cases, Is this a bunch of engineers searching for a problem to add new things to Bitcoin? Because if there was massive demand for doing emulation, you would be looking for people already offering that service.

So that would be my steel man against it, is that if it was so high in demand, why isn't there a bunch of people already emulating this service today? Beautiful. Well, I got to say, I'm still incredibly, Parker, did you have something there? No. No, sorry. So I'll have a hand sneak up for a second.

I mean, the work that we hosted, a CTV workshop and Austin, the Garon Rubin did like four or five years ago. And then a second one, maybe three years ago. The one use case that I had dug into, VALS did seem kind of like a marginal improvement to me. Like a turtles all the way down. Well, if, you know, someone stole all your keys to a multi-sig, why couldn't they just steal the key that you've sent your Bitcoin to if they know that much about the operating security? and you know if the change is marginal if the benefit is I viewed that as marginal but it's something I would be digging into a lot more so I appreciate you here you know Rob putting me on the trail of the just just the things to look out to because I do I do get so certain of the other benefits the ones that seem more I think important would be to create what is Rob explain the the benefit on Arc and enlightening where yeah so Absolutely. So I'll be very brief because I don't want to take over the show and turn into a CTV show.

Very, very briefly is that on Lightning, if you were to actually add CTV and also checks like from Stack, just checks like from Stack, all it is is instead of when you sign a Bitcoin transaction and you like say this is valid, you're good to go, you can just sign an arbitrary message, like whatever that message you wanted to be. In this case, you could use it for the hash time lock contract. And what you could do for Lightning, if you had CTV and Chexick from Stack, you'd actually be able to remove the entire mechanism of backing up your channel and you have to keep your channel persistent in your Lightning node. And in the event, you broadcast an old state, you lose all of your Bitcoin in the Lightning Channel. If you had CTV and Chexick from Stack, you enable something called LN symmetry or L2 as it used to be called. And that means that you can actually like, if you don't have to have your backup anymore.

And if you broadcast an old state, it just shuts down. You don't get penalized and lose all of your money in the Lightning Channel. So that would be a way to encourage more use of the Lightning Network and putting more capital to work because you're no longer worrying about this risk scenario of if someone, if I accidentally broadcast an old state, I lose all my money in the channel. You still have to keep your key hot, right? Like that's still a risk. For Arc, the way Arc Labs gets around this right now with the Arcade OS they're launching, imminently onto Mainnet.

I played a Mainnet demo a couple months back, but I think it's coming out for Wider release soon, is that you have to have your phone wallet, like your client on to co-signate. the transactions every two weeks to keep yourself live in the network. And if you had CTV, you'd be able to reduce the online interactivity of making sure your phone wallet is on every week or so to keep that going. Right. But to their credit, what Arc Labs is doing is they're just saying, listen, we're not CTV. We're not planning on an existing. It's also me personally at Anchor Watch. I don't bank my company roadmap on a fork happening to Bitcoin. What they're doing is saying, listen, instead of having all the same like the CTV stuff, we can just emulate it and just

have the client, my phone, sign with the ARC server as a 2 of 2 multisig. They use MUSIG under the hood. So it just looks like a single sig. And they can just kick the can and just keep on renewing the transaction. So that's a way that they're actually emulating a CTB-like function through cosigning. So those are like the big things. It would just better lifetime lightning network, just network dynamics, as well as reducing interactivity for these things like ARC.

That is unbelievably cool. Now, I am no closer to knowing which way I lean on this fence after. all that, but I am super bullish on how energized and pump Rob is on all of it. So thank you for that, sir. Sure. Good thing. Guys, we're going to hop and take a quick break for sponsors. When we come back, get those lightning wall. It's ready. We are going to give away some stats quick, and we are going to go to TC's reason for being bullish. Make sure to please do if you're enjoying the content. And you're learning a lot from these guys because I know that I sure am. Hit like, hit subscribe, leave a comment down below. It's really helpful. And we'll be right back

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Same question that everybody gets, buddy. Tell me, why are you bullish? Oh, so much to be bullish for. I was going to talk about some of the, you know, engineering and building on Bitcoin stuff, but I think Rob really covered so much ground there. I'm going to go a little bit more high level here. You know, there's echoes of war. There's a lot of chaos out there in the world.

There's a lot of despondent people. There's sort of a general apathy out there. And I see bitcoinsers overcoming that in so many different ways. So that's my reason for being bullish today. One of the best examples I got is I was in Vegas for the big conference, and one of my favorite parts of that was the art gallery. I got to meet so many artists that a few that I've met before, but a bunch that I hadn't met yet.

I don't know if people know, but I run a little art gallery on timechain calendar.com. But I met several of these artists who are all figuring out how to survive using Bitcoin art. And some of them had really profound stories of just transforming their lives by kind of pursuing their own North Star. So this is just kind of an idea I've had in my head that Bitcoin offers all kinds of people this opportunity to pick a new North Star and follow something that you're passionate about and find your real self and pursue it and build a new North Star. on top of Bitcoin in more ways than one. So that makes me incredibly bullish.

I'm building on Bitcoin with Time Chain Calendar. I love what Rob and what Parker are doing and, you know, everyone out there, it doesn't matter. You don't have to be an engineer. You don't have to code whatever it is that you love. Bitcoin has a way of helping people find how to manifest that. So I'm bullish. That's beautiful and absolutely a perfect reason to be bullish. I actually had an interview with Madex that came out just on Tuesday.

And I completely agree. Everybody who is in the space has something that they can contribute. And art is incredibly powerful for both inspiring and helping construct like beautiful narratives and tales to guide us through these sort of things. And even currently you mentioned like with the conflict that's kind of escalating between Israel and Iran, with we have, well, there's probably all over the world at this point too, right?

Again, it could be my echo chamber, it could be my filter, but it feels to me like the public sentiment around this sort of thing is at least not as, not as easily goaded into it, that they're not interested in it. that it almost is like our Bitcoin are kind of, for lack of a better term, values are starting to permeate the culture. And we're seeing more kind of like-minded people throughout.

And I think that stuff is really important. And art is key to that. Parker, I'll start with you, man. T.C.'s wonderful reason for being bullish. What do you think? So I'm super bullish on Bitcoin art. I've got not to plug my book, but I've got this piece of art here that I worked on with a Bitcoin artist and that the cool thing well not only do I think it's a cool piece of art but

I just saw the the bitcoiner on Twitter you know we've never actually met he goes under a nym his name's proof of paint you should all check them out and support him if you have a project you need to commit them worked with him it was funny like I wasn't ever trying to get an AI to like but I was using mid-journey to like but I was using mid-journey to like like try to explain to an artist what I was looking for. It was actually helpful in that, but it also became clear that only two humans working together could create what we created. It was a very collaborative effort.

But that, you know, I've never actually met the guy, paid him in Bitcoin, and, you know, planned to work with him on some other things, have worked with him since. So yeah, I think that the cultural side of Bitcoin and art being a big part of that, just it demonstrates that it's not just about money or making money and that this shift is going to be far greater. So agree, super bullish on that. And then also a big fan of time change calendar and also just love the spirit that he carries with him on how he develops a project and just not budding anything getting his way. So yeah, if you haven't ever how beautiful that app is and how functional is, you should definitely check it. check out the time chain calendar for sure yeah completely agree 10 out of 10 on timechain calendar.com

i have like a list of books and recommendations for people getting into bitcoin that just have ready to go and fire off at any point in time and on the top of the websites is time chain calendars the first one there is like go check this out you're going to want to see that then maybe go explore mempool if you if you want to rob artist bitcoin influence on the world building other things tell me your thoughts man uh yeah i think uh bitcoin influence on the world with kind of the current geopolitical climate it's interesting to see Bitcoin kind of tame and hiding, you know, hanging out at the same price levels. I think this is just part of Bitcoin being financialized hyper-bitquinization, where it's no longer

this fringe speculative play. It's being seen as kind of the bedrock of people's portfolio, like their gold price, right? So in that sense, like it's just part of Bitcoin maturing. For Bitcoin art, I have my art wall back here. I got my Madex piece right here with the rib-eye. I can see it. The rabbi and the cult magnum. I got nifty nifty nay. I got this for me when I spoke at Bitcoin Plus Plus last year, the script edition. I have Hal Fitty photo here, signed by Fran Fitty.

I have fractal encrypts public key, 18 out of 210. And then I got my Genesis address from crypto graffiti right here. I'm a big fan of Bitcoin. I guess you can call myself a very, very small patron of it. I also spend some time also at Bitcoin Park out in Nashville. And if you've never been, there's art all over the place. So it's always a cool thing that when I'm pacing the halls and just thinking about problems, sometimes I'll look at the art while I'm chewing on an idea.

And it's cool to see what different people in Bitcoin build. And actually, T.C, to be honest, I have never seen the gallery on time chain calendar, but I'm clicking through it right now. It's very cool about how you actually timestamp this based. on whatever block height the art was made so you can see kind of the time chain art for that block. It's really, really cool. That is so cool. Thank you.

That's version one. I actually have huge plans to overhaul that gallery and do even more justice. And I got a whole backlog of artists. I'm going to be adding to that since the Las Vegas conference. I met a bunch of people that there's so much talent out there. And again, it's incredible to me how people can come from all parts of the world. world in all walks of life. There's some way that they can channel the concepts of Bitcoin and the ideas behind Bitcoin into unique ways to communicate that to others. And it's just,

it's so powerful and meaningful. You can't see it here. But in my studio, I've got some similar stuff to what Rob showed us up on my walls and it inspires me every day. Yeah. Time chain calendar is its own form of Bitcoin art too, being able to show kind of the distance of, you know, the blocks being found, the epochs, the difficulty adjustments, and kind of just a fascinating technical element. The name time chain, I know like Satoshi originally came up with it, just as a little trivia fact, Bitcoin as a software, like as just code, is entirely indulgence. It's within the system of Bitcoin. It's all self-ferential. You have signatures, you have hashes, you have addresses, and they're all self-referential.

The one thing that Bitcoin needs from outside of Bitcoin to actually run is time. The miners put the timestamp in the block header. And that's how the difficulty adjustment works and everything. And it's just a really cool, seeing your way of visualizing that. It's really love seeing it. I completely agree. It's absolutely gorgeous. And it's funny.

We even touched on briefly, like the idea of AI and art and producers here as well, too. And that was one thing I was discussing with made acts that I kind of grapple with because it seems like something that cuts both ways. So in the one sense, like Parker to your point, it's like, you need the person to come in there, but how much easier was it to communicate because you had this ability to generate something to communicate the idea that was stuck your head. And additionally, particularly maybe not even things for like visual pieces, but what we've seen with AI and video generation right now is that the capital required to maybe produce a short film or a long film is essentially getting squeezed down to marginal, was it, the marginal cost

of production. And that we might see a beautiful kind of return to, particularly in things like film, where the only thing that really matters that carries the weight is the story. Right. It's all comes down to how good is the story that you're telling. And I think those can have, because I don't know about you guys. Maybe Parker, you have any of these moments in your past that stuck with you. I had these few little memories that ended up being like something that I really like grappled onto. It was huge for my own like development and outlook on life. And one of them was South Park.

South Park was hugely influential on like my underpinnings of why I went into like libertarianism and these sort of philosophies. It kind of this universality. And what it was was Matt and Trey commented on either everything is funny. Like either everything's available we can make fun of or nothing is, right? They weren't going to discern what was and what wasn't okay to joke and poke fun at. And that just stuck with me. But again, it was a cartoon from my youth that had a profound impact on how I view the world. And I think these things, you never know what's going to strike or land with somebody.

I'm just curious your thoughts, Parker. I mean, I do think that the idea that there are certain moments in time that that stick out, you know, is true. You know, it's true of myself and understanding Bitcoin. True of think a lot of things that are just formative in people's lives. I'm more skeptical. I do think that, you know, AI is going to be used to make content, but people are going to be able to see it. And that a lot of what people value is storytelling, but it's also the humanity behind it. And that, you know, one of the things that I, you know, came to understand when we were working on this piece of art was that, like, you know,

these models, they can, they can replicate things that already exist, but they can't create things that are new. And that the iterative process of me just talking with proof of paint about ideas and iterating on it, like just that process itself, it was like there was an idea in my head. I might have, you know, used a prompt to get something out. But then what he was able to create and then what we were able to create together iterating on it, it would have been impossible to create with, you know, talking to a computer. Like it required two humans communicating back and forth. So I think that what it's going to do is it's going to actually, there's probably going to be a period where people try to take shortcuts, but then it actually accelerates people back to appreciating the humanity of,

you know, whether it's art or people, you know, writing books, creating content that what they're actually interested in is other humans' perspective on things, not machines. Like machines are great for learning something, you know, learning a skill, maybe making a, coding process more efficient, but culture and arts, I think less so. I think you're onto something there

in the sense that as we have more and more of it readily available and kind of inundated with it, that hunger for the real thing, like the real connection, we have the emotional response, something to be completely novel you've never seen or thought of before. I think you're right. That they'll be at least a demand for I want handcrafted, I want manmade,

I want the thing that someone really poured their heart and soul into to try and communicate a message. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and also, you know, humans, create real, real things. And I think as time goes on, it just becomes a larger and larger contrast between the things that are really well made and really come from the heart and all the stuff that just kind of comes close to emulating that, because that's what I think the AI does well. If you squint your eyes and blur your vision, looks cool. But if you take a close look,

It's missing the heart and soul. So I think that's something else that the artists in Bitcoin particularly, I notice are on that trail of really doing the hard work and creating things that are lasting. The concepts that are in that art is timeless. Yeah. And it's another way to hopefully bring people into Bitcoin. Well, gentlemen, I'm going to put a bow on that topic like TC. I am incredibly bullish on all the Bitcoiners producing wonderful things in the space.

We're going to take another quick break for sponsors. me get back, don't go anywhere, everybody. We're going to get to Parker Lewis's reason for being bullish. Please again, if you're enjoying the conversation, hit that like button. It really helps a lot. And we'll see you in just a second. Looking for a simple and secure way to manage your Bitcoin on mobile, Aqua Wallet has you covered. It's user-friendly and puts you in full control of your Bitcoin with secure self-custody. Aqua also supports lightning and liquid network, making fast, fast, cheap Bitcoin payments and asset transfers easier than ever. Plus, it even supports stable coins, giving you.

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or for convenience when traveling. You can head to coinkite.com and use code BTC session. for discounts or simply scan the QR code on the screen to get started right away. Right, all right. So getting back into it quickly before we get to Parker's Reason, I just want to do a shout-out. We've got the sat market. Ben and I have the sat market coming up here in just a couple weeks. Maidix is going to be there and a lot of other Bitcoin producers and sellers.

Again, selling what they've got and what they do for Bitcoin. So if you're in the Calgary area, come check that out. And we've also got a workshop that we're hosting after the Bitcoin Rodeo. If anybody wants to come join us out in Banff, we would absolutely. We love to have you there. Now, with that, moving things right along. Same question everyone gets. Parker, tell me, why are you bullish?

All right. Several things I'm bullish about. One, too late J-Pal didn't reduce interest rates. Bitcoin will never have to be at the whims of too late J-Pal. But also, Bitcoin's hanging out north of 100,000 with, interest rates artificially high, so love that. Second thing, we've got a beautiful debate that got accepted today between Jim Chanos and the accountant himself, Pierre Richard.

So I think it's very bullish that Jim Chanos has been brought into the Bitcoin, just here of a piero charred you know by you know kind of dialogue with Jim Chanos for people that don't know Jim Chanos he's probably like the you know probably the best short sale of all time and he's he's shorting with companies like micro strategy and basically hedging it with Bitcoin so he's but it's just beautiful that that he's going to be debating Pierre Oshard and I hope that Pierre waxes him but before that's happening that's where Bitcoin is these days. Third thing I'm bullish about is Square enabling Bitcoin payments. The conference I think that the way that they're doing it specifically is they're enabling it

for all merchants and it's going to be auto converted to $2, but that merchants that actually want the Bitcoin can set the default to keep the Bitcoin. So, you know, Square has poor. million merchants I think that's super bullish it's going to be bullet for for everybody working on Bitcoin payments just going to create a huge tailwind there's been a lot of people that think that it's too early for Bitcoin payments so you know personally being somebody working on Bitcoin payments having someone like Square make make a move like this but but also how they're doing it's going to be great for their merchants it's going to be great for Bitcoiners that value their merchants is going to be great for everybody working on Bitcoin and

just Bitcoin more broadly and then bullish on try maple they got the first bitcoin payments in in in for an app in the apple app store since oh yeah that's usually there was a recent ruling against apple in terms of limiting how people can take payments and and what fees they charge i'm sure apple will push back but it's still bullish that the guys at maple anthony and marks um who work out of bitcoin park austin side by side with me We're doing it and then using ZapRites API, which is pretty cool. And then just bullish on the things that we're working on ZAPRai, we're about to release new tickets, native ticket suite. We've already got a few customers that are onboard and have early access.

So it's already live, but we're just doing some beta testing and making sure it's hardened. So we're already enabling events like Bitcoin Rodeo that you mentioned, but we'll be able to do that in a more power way. So trying to get everybody who's hosting Bitcoin related events or satellite events around Bitcoin events set up in a way that they can receive Bitcoin payments natively and actually drive the Bitcoin payments. So bullish on all things Bitcoin payments and Zappright as well, but more broadly than that. So everything seems tipping in the scale of Bitcoin. My God, there is so much there to try and unpack. And I completely agree. By the way, for anybody that is receiving payments for your goods, your service, or business, whatever. If you haven't

checked out Zappright, 10 out 10 recommend it. It's fantastic. Okay, where do I want to start on this? First one I'm going to go to, because I think it's the most important one here, with block and square and receiving the Bitcoin payments. The thing that I really need to know, Parker, the thing that is really important to me is where do you stand on BIP-177? I'm a stats maxi.

You're not. It's just, it's organically emerged on the market. And I don't think that it's worth trying to swim upstream. So there are 21 million Bitcoin. They are not at the same time 2.1 quadrillion bitcoins. And so I think it would be super confusing to say one Bitcoin is equal to 100 million bitcoins. I could see sometime in the future, but that's just such a strong meme and never once had anybody confused when I explain that there's 100 million stats in a Bitcoin. That's the last thing that they're confused about Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is the thing that's confusing with people. So I'm a anti-dip 177 maxi, but I'm supportive of anybody who wants to drive Bitcoin payments to take another approach so long as they're enabling. Good. I think that's one thing we actually have complete consensus on this panel for is it's Sats. We're keeping Sets. It's Sats. It's it came up at a, I co-host Nashville BitDefs. So it came up this past week there, and so I mentioned it.

And to me, I feel like it undercuts one of the best marketing angles of Bitcoin, which is the continual price going up. So now you get someone who for years is like Bitcoin's at $100,000, $1,000, $1,000, $100,000. You're like, oh, wait, actually, a Bitcoin actually is the smallest unit. So it's fractions of a penny. Like you're rugging the entire memetic momentum of Bitcoin on a price adoption side. So I think it is totally, I like what's the same.

Certain people want to make Bitcoin worth less than a dollar by Fiat. Come on, guys. Yeah, come on. Yeah. What are we doing here? It's not going to happen. People are going to try different approaches. I think it's confusing.

And you basically like anyone who has heard anything about Bitcoin ever, I actually met someone recently for the first time in a long time who had never heard of Bitcoin. I was at stake in shake the day they added Bitcoin payments. Really? Super smooth and easy. And I did it. And there was this elderly woman who said like, because the manager's like, oh, you're paying with Bitcoin.

I was like, yeah, yeah. And then the woman's like, oh, what's Bitcoin, this elderly woman? And I explained like, oh, it's this digital currency. She had no idea. I finally, in like first time in years, I met someone who had no idea. And there's less and less of those people around. And so anyone who's ever heard of Bitcoin before knows that a Bitcoin's roughly $100,000 at the moment.

And so to explain to that this cheeseburger is going to be $10,000, Bitcoin, they're going to be like, what are you talking about? Right. It just totally doesn't work. I agree. T.C., quick thoughts on. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm not changing my logo to 2.1. 21 is a massively successful meme in Bitcoin, 21 million specifically. And, you know, I'm an appreciator of John Carvalo, but get the hell out of here with that.

Okay, sweet, good, beautiful. I want to jump back then, Parker. There was the other thing that you touched on to with the Fed not cutting today. And again, in this high interest environment, because for a long time of speculation that, you know, Bitcoin required constant M2 supply. We saw contracting. It needed a low interest rates. We had a high interest rate environment, especially on a relatively. terms of the trend over the last 40 years. There's one thing that I picked up on, but it could be completely me just projecting. So this is not fair, right? It could be just my biased view of this.

I'm curious to your thoughts. There's something around, like we've had the yield curve inverted for so long. It feels in a lot of places. I think it's similar in the U.S., at least in some industries, like with airlines, but like in Canada, it feels like a recession. It does not feel good.

It's been hurting. And we've had previously very, very inflationary time. This all feels very reminiscent to me of 2008. to like Chancellor on the brink, we have conflict in the Middle East. If I remember correctly in 2008, too, they were concerned about inflation. They were concerned about inflation going up. It wasn't going the other way. And so with the way that markets are currently sitting with the Fed holding,

I'm curious if any of this is reminiscent of the different times for you, Parker, or just how you view things progressing over the next year or two. I mean, I do think that it's similar to 2007 or eight as well as 2020, is that the Fed is always most necessarily behind, that it's difficult for a central bank to reduce interest rates when the S&P 500, you know, it's not at its all-time high, but it's near it. But at the same time, I do think that the underlying economy

is the overarching economy is extremely leveraged, and so high rates are destroying different parts of the economy unequally and suffocating anything that's dependent on leverage, like the housing markets, auto market. And so I think it's that something's going to break. Eventually, I think CEO of J.P. Morgan signaled that, you know, if they don't act soon, it will break. But realistically, as the Fed always acts, that something has to have demonstrated that it's broken for the Fed to act. It's reactionary, not because they're stupid, because they almost need an excuse. They need to be seen as, you know, people not question, oh, why, you know, because people can say inflation is coming down, but food inflation is just as high.

So it's hard to lower interest rates and spike inflation when people are struggling still at the gas, gas station food, the grocery store, which are the two most basic things that people need every day. And it just so happens that the Fed excludes that from its inflation tracker. So ultimately, I do see parallels and there's parallels for very logical reasons. Beautiful. T.C., I'm curious, and then Rob, maybe I'll throw it to you. T.C., do you think that the Fed is going to screw this up and that they might print more dollars? I think there's a few immovable forces in the universe. And one of them is that the debt has to continue to balloon and that the purchasing power of the dollar in all fiat currencies has to continue to be debased.

These are not, these are trends that are not going to change at any point. What a lot of people don't realize is that lowering interest rates is horribly inflationary. And so all the people that are rooting for lower interest rates right now, including the president, they are essentially rooting for higher cost of living for everyone. It's just a no-brainer. And amidst all of that, you have Bitcoin, emerging on the global stage and still a shocking about 99% of human race that just doesn't understand what they're looking at. They perceive this thing as risk.

They perceive it as speculation. The FUD that's been broadcast for over a decade has been quite successful at convincing people that Bitcoin is just a risk thing. When in truth, it is a safety asset. It is something that actually can help you take action. in this environment. And this is the most frustrating, I think, thing for Bitcoiners, which is you talk to people in your life that you care about,

your close friends, your family, and they all will admit how bad it is out there right now. And it's still so hard to make a breakthrough to get people to see this thing that they've been told is so risky that it's actually a safe haven. And so I think that's essentially the opportunity in Bitcoin as a whole. It's just this arbitrage between, just misconception and misdirection and misunderstanding and the truth, which you can verify yourself.

So that's basically it in a nutshell. I completely agree. And even, you know, one thing I want to tag on to this too, and then Rob, I want to get your thoughts on this is I'm very concerned over the current escalating conflict in the Middle East, but the idea that kind of sticks in the back of my mind is I can't tell if they're potentially gunning for a war because they need to print or they're going to gun for a war and then they're going to have to print. Like, I'm not really sure which one comes first,

if this might be a kind of excuse to do what they want to do, or it will later excuse what they need to do anyways. Rob, market outlook, any of that, your thoughts. Yeah, one of the things I'm fundamentally bullish about Bitcoin is we never have to wait for an FOMC meeting to know what's going to happen in the next block. Right, just at first principles, the idea that the world markets turn to a man,

you know, to understand where the interest rates are going to go for the price of money. It's, I agree, Parker, the Fed's always a lagging indicator. They, you know, their alleged independence prevents them from being the one to actually take strong leadership to do things. They have to wait for that permission structure. So it's, you know, it's interesting now in age of prediction markets. You can actually see where markets are betting on if it's going to be no change or, you

know, a 25-bip or a 50-bit rate cut. Ultimately, it doesn't matter in the grand scale of, you know, Bitcoin's continual march forward and dominance. In that long list of Parker bullish things they list off, I just want to also like shout out to the Maple AI crew getting Bitcoin payments again that turned on to the Bitcoin app store, like Maple AI. It's a really cool project of being able to they use secure enclaves for end-to-end encryption for your communication with large language models. You can actually get private chat in a way that's in a more open way where you don't have to worry about intermediaries or them as a service provider kind of poking in and trying to understand what you're using and harvesting you for your

data. So really, really cool progress there and also kind of quickly aligning on the recent changes from the Apple store with their court cases and settlements to get Bitcoin in that. I think that's I think it's going to take a little bit of time for it to fully shake out with app cycle updates and releases and people pushing the boundaries. But that's a whole new venue too for Bitcoin payments, just natively within these apps now with Apple no longer kind of sitting there as tollkeeper and kind of microcontrolling everything. There's a lot of great opportunity to be growing there. Which quick question, you guys might know this as well too, but what is the share of the market buy that Apple currently has. It's got to be like a massive percentage of people that

didn't have access to Bitcoin payments through the app store that is now now potentially being onboarded like a whole new group of cohort. Within the United, it's roughly like I think 50-50 globally, but if you actually look at like the United States, Canada, Europe, like I think it's very heavily skewed like 7525 for Apple, if not more. I'd have to go look at, I should probably go look at a number real quick. Either way, it's massive. I apologize to Rob. I interrupted you, but I couldn't help but think about like how massive that actually might be and completely just something that might be overlooked by most people. Exactly.

And you would think about it too, for a lot of digital, Bitcoin's great for digital native products as a digital native money. Right. So being able to kind of like a lot of app store consumer purchases are just digital goods, maybe you're ordering something on Amazon on your phone. But a lot of time you're buying something within the app store and something digital. Bitcoin payments is an obvious synergy there for sure. 100%.

Gentlemen, we are getting close to the top of the hour. But before I go, I do want to dive into the other thing that Parker talked about. I missed this debate. Can you explain a little bit more of what's going on with Pierre? Yeah. So Jim Chanos, legendary shortseller. Well, respected guy, thoughtful guy. I think it's great because it's going to draw him into Bitcoin and then he's going to become a Bitcoiner.

But over the last several days or maybe like last week or two, Jim Chanos announced that he was shorting micro strategy and that he was hedging it by being long Bitcoin. So he's basically trying to short the premium above the net asset value of Bitcoin that the micro strategy holds. And Pierre started chirping at him on Twitter in a respectful way. Like, you know, Pierre is very respectful. You know, it was respectful of chirping. He was making good points. And Jim Chanoes started responding. I saw the first one like three or four days ago.

And I was like, oh, that's cool that Jim Chanos is responding to Pierre's. criticism of Pierre was explaining to him why he was playing he was making a very risky trade that he didn't fully understand and and and and then so that's been going on for a few days pierre continues to engage with Jim Chanos Jim Chanos um reengages or gauges back and then somebody suggested today in the Twitter thread um that there should be a debate between Jim and Pierre on Prest and Pish's podcast and pressed and asked him he's like let's do it and Jim Chanos made a funny comment like my mother told me never to go to a fight that you're invited to but in this case I'll make an exception and so I don't know I don't I don't

believe there's a date yet set but the debate has been agreed to as of today so I think that the debate will be whether you know I mean ultimately Bitcoin would be at the heart of it because Jim Chanos is making a bet that you know when Bitcoin goes down the the these treasury or you know bitcoin fiat arbitrage companies will go down by more or even if they don't that they would need to compress over time but uh that bitcoin would be at the heart of the debate because jim change doesn't have an opinion about bitcoin but now he's necessarily going to need one for this debate so i think it's great that's wonderful he's going to have to do his homework he's going to have to read gradually than subtly to prepare he does yeah he absolutely should it's funny guys because it's at the end of the day it feels like in you get you're i'm sure you're all in the same boat. Everybody's going to come to Bitcoin in their own time and through different channels. We've almost hit on So Made them here. Like Jim Chanos is getting dragged in through financial markets and also having a little scuffle on Twitter. We've got art that could be inspirational and interesting people that drags them in as well to do or even

going to the earlier part of the conversation with Rob, the different tools and features. You might be using something with Bitcoin and not even realize that. It could be a new app in the app store that's just powered by Bitcoin or Liquid or something else under the hood. So with that, this has been a fantastic conversation. It's been absolutely wonderful. I'm incredibly bullish. Everybody watching right now, if you haven't already, follow Parker Lewis. Go check out ZapRite if you have any need for BitPoint payments set up with your current business, as well as get gradually and suddenly.

Follow Rob Hamilton and all the wonderful work they're doing over at Anchor Watch. And if you haven't yet, follow TC and make sure you hit up the timechain calendar.com and peruse that art gallery that should be getting an improvement to hear very, very soon. Awesome with that, guys. I am Nathan with the BTC sessions, and this has been your daily session. and it didn't play the outro. Isn't that fun? It's the way it goes.

Awesome. Later, team.