Business Innovators Radio - Dr. Charles DeBettignies – Gainsharing Expert – On Revolutionizing Employee Compensation

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

In this episode, Nina Hershberger talks with Dr. Charles DeBettignies about the concept of gainsharing, a method of compensating employees based on the company’s overall performance. Dr. Chuck has worked with over 400 service and manufacturing corporations to implement gainsharing, with impressive results. He has a doctorate in the field and has worked with major companies like ConAgra Foods, RCA, and PPG.Gainsharing is a system that aligns the goals of the employees with the goals of the company. It ties employees’ pay to the overall outcome of the company, creating a game-like environment where everyone is focused on achieving the same result. Dr. Chuck explains that when employees see their pay directly linked to the company’s performance, they become more engaged and motivated to contribute to the overall success.During the interview, Dr. Chuck uses the example of a dental office to illustrate how gainsharing can be implemented in various industries. He explains that by offering additional services to clients, such as teeth whitening, employees can improve revenue and benefit both the company and the clients. He emphasizes the importance of clear communication and training to ensure that employees feel comfortable offering these additional services and understand their benefits.Dr. Chuck distinguishes gainsharing from profit sharing, highlighting that gainsharing provides real-time feedback to employees and offers monthly payouts based on performance. This immediate connection between performance and reward is more motivating for employees compared to year-end profit sharing bonuses, which can become an entitlement over time.He also addresses the question of how productivity improvements can be measured and reveals that a 5% improvement in productivity is a reasonable expectation. By focusing on the key drivers of the company’s bottom line, identifying areas for improvement, and continuously refining the system, employees can achieve significant productivity gains.Dr. Chuck encourages companies to embrace gainsharing as a tool to increase employee engagement and satisfaction. He believes that when employees see the direct impact of their actions on the company’s success, they become more invested in their work and motivated to perform at their best.To learn more about Dr. Charles DeBettignies and gainsharing, listeners can visit Gainsharing.com/podcast. Dr. Chuck also offers a DVD or flash drive with additional information upon request.Don’t miss this fascinating episode filled with insights and strategies for creating a more engaging and productive workplace environment. Tune in to gainsharing.com/podcast to learn more from Dr. Charles DeBettignies.MegaBucks Radio with Nina Hershbergerhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/megabucks-radio-with-nina-hershbergerSource: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/dr-charles-debettignies-gainsharing-expert-on-revolutionizing-employee-compensation

Welcome to Megabox Radio. Conversations with successful entrepreneurs, sharing their tips and strategies for success. Real-world ideas that can put Megabox in your bank account. Here's your host, Nina Hirshberger. Well, welcome to today's show. You know, if you own a business and you have employees, oftentimes you're not sure, how do you compensate them? What do you do?

What is that motivates employees? Well, my special guest today is Dr. Charles DeBettys and Dr. Chuck, I'm going to call him. Dr. Chuck has worked with over 400 service and manufacturing corporations through the United States and Europe to achieve what he calls gain sharing. So, I mean, he's worked with some of the big of the big, you know, conagro foods, RCA, PPP. he's got his doctorate, so, I mean, this isn't something that he's just, you know, thinking of. I mean, the man is really a PhD. So anyway, Dr. Chuck, welcome to the day show. Well, thank you.

I appreciate it. So let's go back on time, and can you share your personal journey? How did you become, first of all, let's describe what game sharing is. Well, you know, the quick explanation is I get every. everybody in a company moving in the same direction, then we tie their pay to the outcome so they get bonuses tied to these games. Because it's typical, you know, for a person in a company to be hourly or salary paid, you know, so they get paid for what they do.

But, of course, the company is trying to achieve this overall result. So when you tie people's pay to that total result and then give them feedback along the way, it becomes a game that they're playing, and they really start paying attention to getting this total outcome as opposed to just their individual pay. So it's just how we structure things so that people are focused on really what we want. And it makes it more interesting for everybody, too. Yeah, so in other words, the company wins because they get more profit sharing, more money, more sales. and the employees win because they get something that really is tied to what they do. Is that why?

Yes, and it's an additional pay. So there's that too, right? You know, it's a gain. But at the heart of it, it's really about making what people do, really driving the business into a little game, like a to-do list that they have, where they say, here's the overall result we're trying to achieve. And then I want to break this into pieces so the different parts of the company can see what they need to be doing as they're part of this. And then tie it to their day-to-day activities so they have like a little to-do list.

So, you know, all of us have, you know, all productive people, right? We use to do lists. And, you know, sometimes we'll put just silly little things on there that are easy to cross off so we feel like we're getting somewhere. but it becomes a little game that you're playing with yourself that, hey, this is the list of things I need to get done, and I'm going to get these done today and then away you go. And it's just so satisfying, you know, to be able to manage your resources during the day to make sure that you get those things done during the day. And so that's what this is all about.

So the employees just don't have their job and their hourly pay or their salary. repay and their tasks, they're tied to this total pitcher and are playing that game too. And when you get a group of people together and they have this common goal and they get feedback, it'll improve. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a softball team or whatever. That's just a basic human dynamic. So when the people see this is what we're trying to achieve and then they're getting feedback, they'll make adjustments on the way and the performance will improve.

and then the people have this realization that, well, I thought this was going to be a sweat harder, move faster thing. And when we got this bonus, that wasn't really the deal. It was just we got organized and we stay organized, and we should do this all the time. So that's kind of a common thing, you know, that in the beginning they think it's going to be a sweat harder, move faster thing. And then they find out, no, no, no, this is just about, you know,

laying out what we're trying to achieve and refining what we're doing on the way to that. So that's interesting. So the feedback. So first of all, let's give an example of pick a company. Let's do a hypothetical company. I don't care. Say it's a dental office. A dental office.

Okay. Yes. Okay, good. So in a dental office, geez, which angle should I hit here, they might have, I don't know what thousand patients or a couple thousand patients or whatever. And these people really are clients, meaning these people are in the care of this dental office. So when the people come in,

they, of course, want to have a great experience and everything that happens with that. But the lady that, the person that checks them in and then takes them to the area and takes care of their service and not everything outside the dentist, well I want to understand this person and what else meaning would they be interested in teeth whitening would and do they understand that it's really important to have regular visits you know you may stretch it out but you shouldn't be going extended periods of time

because then you're going to have problems that can be avoided so that we're making sure in the most gentle way that the people but the clients understand the options that they have so that you're really taking care of them in the best possible way. Now, all these are tied to revenue. So what I want to do is take the staff of this dental practice. And I want them to think about the other things that people really would benefit from and how to offer those to people in a way that will increase the revenue coming into the dentist

and benefit everybody. First of all, it benefits the people because they have terrific smiles. But from there on, you have the same staff of, what would it be, 15 people or something, you know, in a dental practice, and the total revenue goes up.

And so we're having the people in the practice understand you're not imposing on the clients by offering these things. You're not being pushy or wherever. You're taking care of them. them. And it's negligent to have these services that people would benefit from and not make it clear to the clients that these things are available, and it wouldn't be painful, and it'd be convenient, and you really would be better off. You know, they can decide whether they want it or not.

But now it's a game that we're playing. And so with the people in the office, you might keep track of, So who has signed clients up for teeth whitening? And so that is kind of a little game because when they see, okay, let's just say there's four people that interact with these customers. And one of them is getting three or four people to go for the whitening all the time and the others aren't. Well, what's going on here? Are they saying it in a different way? Are they, you know? So once they see that this is a possible thing, then it becomes a little game in the office.

that we're playing. And we're helping one another figure out how we do this. And it's all about helping the clients, because when they have that terrific smile, they're going to enjoy that every day. Every time they look in the mirror, they're going to feel better about themselves because of what these people,

they're not a practice that. Yeah, but I suppose the objection is, I'm not a salesman. I don't want to be pushy. You know, they know that there's teeth whitening out there. they probably if they want it they would ask us for it. I'm sure that's kind of the pushback. What do you say to that?

Of course there. That's true. So there I would say they probably don't really understand what to do. There's probably kind of a nervousness, kind of a training, where if those people could go through a role play where they could see, they can offer this to people in a way. Here are the words to say the way to do it, so they get comfortable. And the other person certainly does have the opportunity to decline.

That's all fine. But I would say, you know, Jay Abraham's famous marketer that I know you're famous with, if we're familiar with, he's very strong on, it is morally wrong to have something that would benefit someone and not tell them. You know, if you have a restaurant and there's hungry people all around and you're keeping it a secret, that's just wrong, you know. And so it's not, you know, Bill Glazer is another famous marketer that you're also familiar with. And he would say, it's not the customer's responsibility to be aware of these things that you can offer. And even if they are aware, they forget.

you know, unless my dental office approaches me with their selections and options with the dental, with the whitening, I'm not sure what they have. I know what's available in the marketplace, but maybe I'm thinking, well, I don't know that they do it. So I don't want to ask them about it and embarrass them that they don't do it. You know what I'm saying? So there's just this gap. and I would train, I would do role play with the people so that they would know what to say

and how to say it and more comfortable doing it. And then I think if they tried it a few times, they'd see that you're not being a pushy salesman, you're offering somebody something. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think of my dentist and they do have some. you know, I know, things on the wall that talk about a few things. But you're right, my hygienist never mentions them. You can see it there on the wall, but it's just a standard kind of, you know, thing.

So it's not even customized to that dentist. I mean, at least you could start with there. Yes, so they could say, 9-8, you have, your teeth are really beautiful. But did you know we have the teeth whitening here? And what you do is you have these little trays and you put this stuff in there. And you can wear it when you're asleep and you don't even know. And your teeth would look even better. They're whitened out.

But you could put this in when you're sleeping and you wouldn't even be aware of it. And when you woke up, you'd look even better. I just wanted to, that's an option for you. So something that's simple. So now on the back of your head going, Oh, I look good, but I could look better during my sleep. What was this? You know, so you planted that seed, you know, which is true.

I use treats waiting, and it's awesome, you know. Especially as people have, yes, go ahead. Tell me the difference between profit sharing and the game sharing that you talk about. Right. This is an important point. So companies want to be sure that when, they're going to give bonuses to people that is really a win-win. So often the way to do that is to wait until the end of the year

and see if they've done better and then pay out. But the main difference here between the profit sharing and gain sharing is gain sharing tells people throughout the year. The information is daily and weekly and monthly. So we're in people's face, so to speak, so where do we want to be, and where are we on that and what adjustments do we need? So it tells them throughout the year what they need to do to be driving these gains. And then the payouts are potentially, usually monthly.

So that's the main difference. You know, they're both about gains and performance improvements and all that. But it's really important in terms of motivation. The year-end payout really is not effective as a motivator. And companies will tell me over and over that, After they pay out at the end of the year a couple times, it becomes an entitlement that people get it and they don't know why, which is really the key. They don't know why they are getting what they get, and it may be even a problem. So you get this profit sharing at the end of the year, and you think, well, I hustled even more this year, and it was the same.

So now I'm getting a payout and you're mad about it. Whereas with the gain sharing throughout the year, we're saying, okay, so here's what? where we need to be, and we either are or are not beating that, and here's how, you know, we can make sure that before the end of the month or whatever we get that number where it needs to be. So they're getting that feedback throughout the year and then the payouts throughout the year. So the closer the outcome is to what somebody does, the better the motivational power of that reward. So the longer the delay, the weaker that connection is.

So is every employee equal equal, or does their share of whatever changed based on whoever, you know, whatever their role is? The Fair Labor Standards Act, the same law that requires companies pay overtime, says that a gain sharing bonus should be distributed as a percent of people's earnings. So we get to the end of, say, the month, and there's a bonus, and let's just say it turns out to be a 7% bonus. So everybody gets 7% of their earnings, including overtime, during that period. And I think the government got that right because they're saying, you know, if you're more highly skilled and so your pay is higher or you've worked 80 hours, you know, versus being a part-time employee, that the bonus should. But anyway, it's like a speed limit. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. That's what they say.

But sometimes, going back to your question there, sometimes companies will have qualifiers that you need to have good attendance, performance or something like that to qualify to get the bonus. So they're kind of coming out from a couple angles there. Now, I had this guy one time who told me that his methodology was he had a a list of tasks for each employee that was expected. One of those tasks was send out five thank you notes every week. That's just an example of one of the tasks.

So that task might be what, you know, person A does, but person B does something different. So, but you're saying they would all share equally based on their level of salary, initial salary. So in other words, if the person A didn't send those five out, that person wouldn't necessarily be participating, but in your case, they would be because the overall... Well, you could do both. You could do both. Now, your example is very good at it that it's a discrete objective event.

It's not their supervisor evaluating them on friendliness or some subjective thing. You don't want to do that. That opens you up to legal challenges. But if you said, hey, there's a bonus at the end of the year, or I mean at the end of the month, and we'll see what the percentage is and everybody gets a 7% bonus. But to do that, you need to have completed these behavioral tasks. For example, at a conneagra plant, they made the French fries for McDonald's and Wendy's. They were very big on safety, and so they had this safety program,

and they had these meetings that they had to have in the different departments. And part of qualifying for the gain-sharing bonus was that they had completed these safety tasks, whether they were having the meetings or doing some exercises or whatever. So we started the gain-sharing, and it was a terrific success, and we had a bonus in the first period, and some of the departments hadn't done their safety stuff. they were just kind of, hey, well, whatever. No, it's not that. Well, I have urgent issues, and that's not one of them.

Well, they weren't eligible. And so that was the last time. It was kind of a chuckle later on, that especially when you get to the end of the period, it looks like we're getting a bonus. The people would be teasing each other, like, you got that safety stuff done? So you can put those qualifiers in there,

but you want them to be objective, measurable, observable things like your example. Yeah, so when you talk about gains, so there is a target. So let's say, I'm just going to pull a number out of the year, let's say the company is making $100,000 a month, and their target is to make $120,000. So they wouldn't be paying out the gain share unless they hit that target as well.

Am I right on that? Well, the formula works in that similar way that you need to be above a targeted level, but usually it's based on a productivity measure, so looking at just to make it very simple labor as a percent of sales. Often it's labor as a percent of value added, which subtracts material cost from the sales. So it's looking at that. to keep it conceptually simple.

You'd say that my labor as a percent of sales is 30 percent, and if we're better than that, we're in the bonus range. And so really the key there is to take the sales up. It's not about reducing the people cost. It's about taking the people, like your people in the dental office. Take those 15 people and increase the revenue as opposed to, you know. As opposed to adding another person. and adding overhead costs.

Well, that takes you in the wrong direction, right? Because if it doesn't increase the sales. But if it does increase the sales, right? I mean, that's what goes on in every business. They hire somebody because you think the benefit will be greater than their cost. Otherwise, you won't be in business long. Right. So every month they're hitting a new target or they just stay on the same target?

Well, this is a part of the essential effective gain sharing system. The first thing that we do is we take companies' financials, and I'm looking for the numbers that drive the bottom line. And I usually have a pen in my hand, and I'm pinching it in the middle and moving it like a little seesaw. So I want to find the things where when I drive those costs down, the profit goes up. and they are really the centerpiece of the gain sharing system. So when I find these factors, I can focus on the three or four things, each of which are driving 15 other things. So I can make sure that the company isn't going to be paying out a bonus

unless it's achieving a certain profit level. I'm really simplifying this, but that's the basic idea. So once those numbers are achieved, then that threshold, if I said labor is 30% of sales, which is oversimplifying, but to give you the idea, usually that's an enduring goal, that often in an industry that will be effective for long periods of time. You don't be changing the goals all the time. Now, you may need to change the specifics to get that ratio to work out, right? So I may do, I want to calculate in my little dental practice.

I got 15 people. So I want to calculate, well, what's the revenue that I need to be in a good spot, right? But if I add two more people, well, then my revenue needs to go up because my costs went up. You understand what I'm saying? It's a ratio. Yeah. So that adjusts, but the overall goal wouldn't that, hey, in my dent, usually in a service business, the total pay and benefits are about 55, maybe 60% of sales. That's kind of a standard thing.

So that would be enduring, that, hey, I want the total pay and benefits for all employees to be less than 55% of sales. So the way to do that is to increase our sales with the same people, and then we're in a sweet spot. I have a new Gainterian client now in Seattle. It's one of these right-at-home services where the skilled nurses come to the people's houses. Right. Yeah. So their thing is, hey, you know, we send these nurses out, and we have clients and all this, and we want to be servicing more clients with the same office staff.

So, you know, take the revenue up instead of hiring more and more office people because we have more and more clients, I want to do that with the same office staff. Now, if you have an additional client, you need an additional nurse, right? I mean, that's just kind of a necessary part of it, right? that cost is going to go up. But my office cost doesn't need to go up. I don't need another scheduler. You know, I don't need another accountant.

I don't, that kind of thing. Which is a true productivity improvement. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they get better at, you know, organizing or whatever it is they need to do, scheduling, like you said. Yes. Yes. If you were in a manufacturing, you know, you talked about ConAgra.

How about, you know, the waste? So in other words, they're, you know, having to reduce up or that goes down so their cost of goods is not escalating. Does that make sense too? Yes. That's a very big part of it. Like with the ConAgra there, that's making the French fries. That's a huge thing. People are shocked at how stringent they are about the quality requirements for these French fries.

I could go on and on about this. I learned so much about it. It is very strict, and it's no gray area. It is or is not good enough. And if it's not good enough, you have to throw it all away. So reducing that, and so these are temperature-related things. So, like with French fries, they have to be maintained at a certain temperature. And if they get outside of that temperature range, you have to throw the whole whatever away.

So that becomes a huge focus for the people's. We want to make sure that we don't lose our focus and something goes out of temperature when we were just not paying attention, that kind of thing. You know, there's going to be variations, natural variations in the process that you want to improve on, but then there's also just unnecessary things that happen, right, that you can highlight, and it's all about improving the system.

So like with the French fries that got out of temperature, how did that happen? How are we, it's a cause and effect world. So how are we going to change what we do so it's not possible for that to have happened? And that's really where the gains come from. Often, as I said before, people think that it's going to be a sweat harder, move faster kind of thing, but that's not really it. Each week I want to look at, so what was our objective? I call it the plan. And this is what good looks like.

If we're going to have a good week, this is what this looks like. Here's the sales, here's the material costs, here's the labor. We've done this before. This would be, here's the orders. This is good. These are the numbers we're trying to hit. So at the end of the week, there's going to be things that didn't stick to that plan. So it's a cause and effect world.

So if I had a problem, there's a reason why I had the problem. And if I don't change something somewhere, I'm going to have that problem again. So I want to go back through the process and say, how can we change what we're doing, so that we don't hit. And it's kind of like standing down the bumps on a surface, you know. Once you remove that bump, you're not going to hit it next time. And now it just becomes easier as things smooth out to plan the work and work to plan because you don't have all these crazy problems that you used to have.

And that's really the key that people see that getting the bonuses and the gains and all that is about refining our system each week. that's what it's all about. So now it's probably all about communicating that as well, isn't it? Yes, yes. These employees know, we're not hiding. They know everything then at that point. Why not, right?

If it's true, we shouldn't be afraid to say it. So, yeah. Now, people need to know what they need to know, right? I mean, there's no sense getting into things. there's a famous sales trader, and he says, you know, in business, anything you say can be one of three thanks. Good, bad, or unnecessary. So there's that. You know, my policy says, if you ask me straight up, I'm going to ask you.

But everybody, you know, you need to cover everything with everybody. But if I ask, I will. You know, I'm not going to, there's nothing to hide. It's just we got to stay focused. And so what are we? And staying focused means we talk about this and not that. because these are leverage points. If I manage these three or four things,

each of them takes care of 15 other things, and the whole picture comes into place if I focus on these things, right? So in the business, that's what it's about. But yes, it is. It's about communication and feedback, so that people see in real time. So how are we doing on that?

What's going on so they can adjust during the game, right? I mean, that's what makes sports so much fun as you're seeing how it's on the game. folding as we go, right? Well, I'm sure that, you know, those employees, when they threw those French fires away, they're mentally thinking, oh, my goodness, that's just, you know, profits going down the train. Is there an average level of productivity improvement you would see?

Is that a fair question? Oh, sure. So if a company has work to do, I mean, you know, they have demand, right? and they have a management team that will look at the facts and make decisions. They won't just talk about the same problems forever or not do anything. And they have equipment that won't utterly fail them. Like I've had places that the glass manufacturing with two furnaces and one of them was always broken down. You're just not going to hit your numbers.

You get the idea. So if they have those three things, I expect, and I find a 5% improvement in productivity. if you don't get that shame on all of us, that's just easy. Straightforward, I expect that. Now, beyond, usually in the first six months or so, we'd be between 5% and 10% improvement. The place I was just out here in Indianapolis had, they just finished their first three months,

individual months. It didn't make it the first month, but the second month was a 7% improvement in productivity, and last month was a 6% improvement in productivity. So it's not uncommon at all. And it was so, they were chuckling about all the little things that led to that improvement, that it wasn't some lightning strike single thing.

It was just the people saying, here's the total, and we're going to make sure that we get the total, and here's how that needs to line up. This process has five steps, and we're going to make sure this one is done on time, and then it feeds to the next one, the next one. And they just, they plan to work and work to plan

and make sure they got it done. And as I was saying, it's fun there that they're seeing, did we work harder? I don't know if we really sweat it anymore. And now, the people are asking, so what do the sales look like for the upcoming months? Does it look like we have enough work to do this again and again? Which is so much fun, right?

Now they're asking, hey, you know, bring me some more work because that's really what's feeding this whole process, and it's not a problem. We'll get it done. It's just so much fun. It is. I've been doing this my whole career. I did my doctoral work on gain sharing.

I worked with a professor doing gain sharing in graduate school. And then when I graduated, I started doing this full time, and it never gets old. It is so exciting when the people understand, like you're saying, you know, the communication, they say, oh, I get it. And then they grab it and make it successful. And it just keeps unfolding, you know,

because they just continue to evolve and improve their understanding of what it takes and how they're going to do it. It really, it fits a certain management style where people believe their, their people want to be productive, and if we give them what they need to do their job, they can do their job better. So, but it's a good thing for managers that are excited about their business

and want other people to be as excited as they are and to tear into this and just make it sparkle. And that never gets old. Once they start using it as a tool to do that, they do it to the end of their time, right? until they retire or whatever. It's just a good fit there. I got to imagine that employees, they want to do a good job. And, you know, I want to just sit there and, you know, every day and every day do the same.

That's kind of boring. So this is kind of like a challenge and stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I was raised here in Indianapolis. I went to a school very close to the 500 racetrack. And I was just taken.

by how these people loved what they did so much that they would die at work, these drivers and teams. You know, when they were in that car, the drivers, they were alive. Everything else was just waiting. And they would do anything they could think of to be the very best, and I was really taken by that because I always enjoyed what I did, but I noticed that everybody's not like that. And if you do enjoy your work, you keep it to yourself, you know,

because other people probably aren't going to share your, your zest, you know. But I thought, well, wait a minute, this happens. How does it happen? And how can we make it happen? And that was really where I got, that was kind of the seed for me looking for gain sharing. And it is the best, when I got into graduate school, I worked with this professor, and he showed me the gain sharing project he was working on.

And I said, oh, this is what I want to do. I knew immediately. And he and I were like a two-man team, like Batman and Robin, going around and working with companies doing this. You can put the conditions in place to increase people's enjoyment of what they do. It's kind of like a kitten, you know. You drag a string in front of that kitten. Well, maybe it won't pounce on it the first time, but it's going to jump on that string.

It's just how things, you know, so there's principles of human behavior the same way that you can put conditions in place that allow people to gamify using a current term what they're doing and make their day-to-day life more interesting so that they're driving the results because it's important to them personally. That's really the key. They're doing it for themselves. And, oh, by the way, the total turns out better. But that's good all around.

That's good for everybody. It makes their daily life more interesting and so on. But the point is this can be engineered. It can be done deliberately. We can put these conditions in place. to increase this. But it's not as though every employee is going to have that fire. But that's not important.

We have certain numbers that every employee needs to hit, you know, and that's what we need from that. You know, there's all kinds of jobs. So I don't need everybody to be on fire. I need everybody to do their part. And then I'll have enough of them that are on fire that it's all, you know, the momentum carries on. Kind of like a fire, you know, when it gets a certain momentum,

it'll just keep burning whatever is thrown into the fire. Yeah, Dr. Chuck, this has been fascinating. Well, I'm looking at the clock. The clock is always my enemy. I mean, we could talk about this forever, but tell me, I am 100% certain. There is somebody listening to this who says, yep, that's me.

I need his help. Where could they get more information to be able to reach out and contact you? Yes. Well, at Gainsharing.com. So it's Gain like the detergent, G-A-I-N, and then sharing, all is one word. Gainsharing.com is our website. But I also have a – we worked with a television producer some years ago, putting together a DVD that I also have available on a flash.

drive and I could offer that you know I could send that to anybody who's interested the television is kind of interesting we used to do seminars public seminars so we took a lot of the content from those public seminars and then the television producer interviewed clients and put it together kind of in a television format and it's a very good way for people to say hey I heard about this concept. I think it's interesting. Let me show you what this is about to kind of put the toe in the water

for other people that aren't familiar with it. So if they went to Gainsharing.com forward slash podcast, there'll be a page there where they can put in the info and I'll send that DVD or flash drive off to them. Be happy to do that. Wow, that's very generous. Yeah. Yeah, so it's gainsharing.com, all one word, gainsharing.com forward slash podcast.

Well, Dr. Chuck, thank you so much for such an amazing, amazing information. It's unique. It's not one that I've had on my podcast before, so it was fun. I was learning. I was writing. Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

I enjoy it. Yeah. And that's obvious, and that's obvious, because you do enjoy it. So, all right. Well, thank you. Until next time, this is Nina Hirshberger. And don't forget, it is Gainsharing.com, front slash podcast. Until next time.

Thank you for listening to Megabucks Radio with Nina Hirshberger. To learn more about the resources mentioned on today's show, or to listen to past episodes. Visit megabucksradio.com.