Business Innovators Radio - Episode 20: Time To Move The Industry Forward By Empowering The Next Generation of Leaders With Cory Thomas-Fisk

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Part of the Construction Executives Live SeriesMove the Industry Forward by Empowering the Next Generation of Leaders. Today, we will learn strategies & life skills to transition your team from the job site to the office. Understand these techniques from an experienced field supervisor & educator on how to make the jump in an efficient & compassionate manner.Cory Thomas-Fisk, is the Program Founder of CONSTRUCTION MANAGEMENT ONLINE. Cory has been involved in almost every aspect of the Construction Industry – Federal/Tribal, Public Works, Commercial & Residential projects, working as a laborer, equipment operator, Field Engineer, Construction & Project Manager, Facility Director Executive, Private Consultant, Facilitator and an Education Advocate for over 18 years as a College Professor. Cory is a graduate of Texas A&M and she is passionate about changing the narrative and perception of the construction industry through education and awareness, elevating those who love the Construction Industry into fulfilling careers. Cory’s experience lends her a unique perspective and well-rounded approach to building professional & personal life balance strategies.In The Zonehttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/in-the-zone/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/episode-20-time-to-move-the-industry-forward-by-empowering-the-next-generation-of-leaders-with-cory-thomas-fisk

Welcome to In the Zone, brought to you by U.S. Construction Zone, bringing you strategies for success with construction innovators and change makers, including In The Zone peer-nominated national award winners. Here are your host, Jeremy Owens. Welcome to Construction Executives Live. I am your host, Jeremy Owens. I am owner and founder of U.S. Construction Zone and three generations improvements out in sunny, but very cold, fulsome California. We are in the 30s here in Northern California. We don't know what to do with 30s. We don't really wear jackets here. We typically are a hoodie, kind of a winter people.

So if you have any jacket recommendations, please send my way in the chat. Thank you so much for being here for another show. This is a great opportunity for us to take a moment to, you know, decompress a little bit, think about a different subject, maybe a subject that's very important to your business. Maybe it's a new one. I just appreciate you guys taking time out of your busy days to be here. If you would like to put things in the chat, I do try to take a look at it during the show. If you have any questions for myself or the speaker, please go ahead and throw it in the chat.

I don't always see them, but I try to stay. in touch with that as well. As I said last week we have a couple cool page updates that I wanted you guys to be aware of. All of our construction executive live videos are now live on our website. You can see it under the tab there and all of them will live on in the community and forever. So we wanted this to be a very important page for us because we want not only the content to live on for the educational component, but we want all of these great people that were meeting and talking to, we wanted their legacy to live on as well. They have a lot of great things to say and they should be putting it out in the world and we should be listening and we should

celebrate it and we should keep it forever. So that's the point with the videos on our website. We also have an events page. So all the construction events, we are now streaming as well and a trade organization. So we want to be able to connect us as a community, as executive, as management, but we also want to be a reference point. And that is our goal with some of the recent pages is we want people to think like, hey, I'm looking for a product or service or I'd like to get involved in the industry, a charity organization. We want people to think a U.S. construction zone.

So we are really trying to provide that reference point for you all. So thank you again. Lastly, we have a couple of people asking about sponsorship opportunities. We are opening that up for our live show. and our podcast. If you have any interest in sponsoring the event, please email our team at info at us construction zone.com. What we're going to do is we're going to provide a logo on our live show as well as provide an opportunity to talk about your product or service in the beginning at the end. It would probably be myself talking about it, but I just wanted you to be aware

of what we're thinking. There is a lot of eyeballs on this live show. We're not only streaming on LinkedIn, but it's also YouTube, Facebook, Twitter as well. So wherever you're tuning in, thanks for being here. We have another great show for you today. It is called Move the Industry Forward by Empowering the Next Generation of Leaders. Today, we will learn strategies and life skills to transition your team from the job site to the office. And to understand these techniques from an experienced field supervisor and educator on how to make the jump in an efficient and compassionate manner. With that, I'd like to introduce our speaker today,

and that is Corey Thomas Fisk. She's the program founder of Construction Management Online. Corey has been involved in almost every aspect of the construction industry, federal, tribal, public works, commercial, residential, laborer, equipment operator, field engineer, construction and project manager, facilitator, director, executive, private consultant, facilitator and an education advocate for over 18 years as a college professor.

And you graduated from Texas A&M, and she is passionate about changing the narrative and perception of the construction industry through education and awareness, elevating those who love the construction industry into fulfilling careers. So please help me welcome. Corey Thomas Fisk. Corey, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Great introduction.

appreciate it. Yeah, no, anytime. I mean, when you list out all of those things you've been involved in, I mean, it's, it's really crazy. I mean, really, if you have two or three of those total, that's a career. So, I mean, it just gives you quite a unique experience when you're, and being in the education field. You've been there, done that, seen it, probably done it. Like, yeah, tell us a little bit about that 18 year career. Well, first, my resume looks a lot different than other people. And a lot of it is because I have done full-time jobs concurrently. And so being a teacher for 18 years means that I taught evenings while I held a day job. And so there was a lot of work that was packed into those first 20 years or so of my life.

But I really just started in construction because it was a great place to be able to make good money for a college kit. You know, minimum wage at that time was about $8 an hour or so, and I could make $19 just being a flag person standing there holding a sign. At least that's what I thought flagging was. I soon found out that it was much harder than it looked and standing there all day long did not bode well for my feet or back. And so I decided that I wanted to be moving.

And so during the summers, I would work as a laborer. I worked on a rock crusher. I worked on an earth dam. I had a lot of opportunities to be able to learn how to operate a lot of different types of equipment because my dad was an equipment operator. So we had a scraper and a backhoe at the house, a front end loader. And so I had to operate all of those. I often liken it my dad and his tonka tracks because we literally rearrange.

reservoirs on our property about once every five years. So we would get to, as kids, you know, gain experience that way. But when I came back from Texas A&M, my goal was to go into the equine industry. I love horses. I still competitively barrel race. But I found that the student loans that I had been shouldered with were not going to allow me to be able to have any comfort. I owed 40,000 in student loans and any ag job that I was going to go for was going to be less than $40,000 a year in salary. So I thought, well, if I come back and I work as a labor for two years, really hard, I can get these paid off, and then I can just go into my dream job. And what happened was, and I had always gotten overtime during the summers during those short stents of construction,

but when I actually went to work as a construction labor, it was eight hours a day, every day for five days. I mean, I felt like I was crawling. I was not paying off my student loans the way I wanted to. And it was a miserable project. I was on a $250 million prison project. There was over 400 men on that project. There was probably six women on that.

the project. And it was eight foot of snow, which meant three foot of mud, and we were tracking through all of it. And it was a personally very demoralizing atmosphere. And not because any one particular guy was hitting on me or trying to be rude that way, but it just, there was no camaraderie for me to be able to talk to other women or to be able to explain the things I was going through on the job site. And so I was doing that. And as I was doing that, my dad had gone on to the job site to hustle some work. And he was wearing a Texas A&M jacket that I had brought him back from graduation. And he walked into the senior construction management office and the senior manager who was running the whole project had graduated from Texas A&M. So when he found out that there was

an Aggie with a degree out on the site working in this miserable mud in these car hearts. He drove for three days trying to locate me and find me. And finally he did and offered me a dollar less an hour and I jumped. I was like, I don't even, don't even have to tell me what the job description is. I'm doing it. Yeah. And it was God blessed because it fit me. It fit my personality. it fit everything that I had grown up to be around and to learn. It was so familiar. I already knew the terminology and the construction lingo, but I didn't have any formal training in print reading

or putting together change orders or anything like that. So I worked under a mentor who was a construction manager, and he taught me everything so much that when he left, I moved up into his position. So now that I'm this 24-year-old who has very little formal experience that is running these projects. And then the project started to shut down or close down. And so because I was kind of the most local person, they would just have me close each bid package as the job was coming to an end. And so as I was doing that, it came to a point where the job was over.

and I was like, well, I kind of like this. I want to stick with this. You know, what does this have to offer me? The thing that construction really showed me very quickly is that it could pay for my expensive horse habit. And so this could be an opportunity for me to work at something that I really loved, but then also be able to pay for a passion that I really loved. And so I immediately decided that I was going to take on the construction life, which meant, you know, moving a lot. And I knew this because my dad had, you know, been in construction his whole life. And so I interviewed with Fleur Daniel for the prison project down in Corcoran. And so when I did that, I also had to make a life decision because I was at a point where I had gotten married and whether or not my mate was going to choose to support me and move down there. And that didn't

happen. And so that was a really impactful time in my life of deciding what am I going to be doing and how do I want to move from this point forward. And so I committed 100% to be in a construction manager. And I began to do that and it was kind of like construction moved in waves when there were construction projects in the prisons and the bond that came out, you know, would go towards prisons. and then about five, ten years later, the bonds go towards schools. So I was right on the clips of that changeover. And so when I finished the project in Corcoran, I started school construction with Kitchell, CEM, and Sacramento.

And my parents were from Northern California. So it was just nice to be able to move closer to where they were at. And I enjoyed working with Kichel for a number of years. I'm considered a retread three times over there because I keep quitting. But it's because other opportunities have opened doors. And those opportunities led to entrepreneurship where I started running my own companies. I have a Class A general engineering contractors license. I would start managing my own projects.

I was a facility director for a school district and then for several tribal organizations. And then while this was happening, I got married again. And I was about 10 years into that when we got divorced. And it really was important for me to be available for my boys. And that's when I really got into teaching. And so having the same schedule as my boys was beneficial. And working at the college had the benefits in place that I needed. But I still felt that in order to be able to really serve my students, it was important for me to maintain my hands in the physical construction side because having those stories to tell in the classroom are really, really important for them to be able to get the real world scenario.

Yeah. Very cool. You're the first caller from my neck in the woods, too. I forgot to mention that that we're within 30 minutes of each other. And for me, that's rare. Usually it's a lot of limitations. So welcome. And then, you know, with all that experience, you know, there's one common thing that we see. And why do you see this? You know, with all of your field experience, what do you think the construction is continually struggled with the division between the field and the inside staff? It is probably the most devastating split in the construction industry. And a lot of us don't understand it.

until we're in the industry itself. And when you're in the industry, you can see basically the onion peel of layers that we have at the different levels of professionalism or workforce that we are dealing with. And so construction has a very low-skill, low entry level, and there's an opportunity to be able to get in there. But the problem is that the public sees the entire industry that way.

And so what happens is the office management who probably haven't all gone through site before they were promoted or elevated into an office position, take on that same mindset or view of those that work out in the field. And, you know, that is a really hard thing because the people that are in the field, they work really hard. And so they want that respect and they want that appreciation for what it is that they're able to get done in the day. And it doesn't necessarily come from the office. But the biggest issue, obviously, is communication, the type of communication that each of those two, the site versus the office use. And the feeling from the site that the arrogance or ego that is coming from the office side in not appreciation, for them and them as a person, not even necessarily them as a worker, but for them as a person. You know, why are they working on the site?

They must not have gone to college. They must not be smart. They must not have achieved a degree. When I think we're all becoming more open to the understanding that we all have a different story and our paths uniquely designed in order to be able to get us where we are in life. And that today you can find people. who have degrees who are perfectly happy on the site side because they are able to go in at 630 and shut down at 3.30 and go home and be with their kids and still make really good money.

Yeah. So I think that communication division is the worst. Yeah, I know. It's funny. We talked about this earlier. You know, you've been on both sides of the fence. How valuable would it like a little white swap job swap scenario where, you know, management inside would have to go to the field for a week and vice versa?

like, A, I think that would be really cool and valuable. B, I think both sides would be exhausted and probably want to go back to another job, right? Yeah, I love this idea of the wife swap, you know, doing the site swap, you know. And I think it's a great idea. And I think that if a company were to offer this, I see it as being probably a program of some sort just to give somebody a you know, Mejai boot travel into what it's like to be on site and what it's like to be on the office would be hugely important. But you're right in the exhaustion that would take place because the energy of each of the tasks that each of those entities are responsible for, site versus office.

Site is a physical job. Office is typically a mental job. So both entities in that swap are going to be using skills and tools that they're not normally accustomed to, and that is going to be draining for them. I think it's also a really important consideration in the sense that that site person can have an appreciation for why things are being asked of them on the site, and then hopefully the people from the site would have an appreciation of how they then ask for those things. so that that cross and communication provides a level of respect for both entities. Yeah, I know that there's a lot that we can unpack here, but what do you think the management side does not appreciate from the field the most?

You know, I guess what do they, what's the field saying like they'll never understand me here? Well, the field, again, they feel as though they're not being appreciated and that, you know, It's the office that doesn't feel that they, that the site people have the professionalism to be able to understand what is really being required of the project in order to get the project done. Well, whose fault is that? It's their fault to educate everybody of where the project's going and how it's going to get there. But one of the things that we don't do that often enough anyway is be able to open up and share with the site what it is that we're doing on the office side and we're. why it's necessary in order for us to get the job completed. If those on the site side understood what the end goal was, then they may even have some really cool innovative opportunities to be

able to change the wheel a little bit, to be able to get you where you need to go. Because again, typically those on the site are going to have that practical hands-on experience that knows how to actually build what it is that the office is trying to get accomplished. Yeah, here we go again with the communication word, right? It's always that. It's always, if we communicated that, like you said, they probably would have some great ideas on how to get to A to B quicker or, oh, have you ever thought of this?

But like, it's just so, I think we all just get so busy and we put our head down and we get task oriented, but we forget that if we're all part of the big picture, that it's going to be more efficient in the long run. And I just stress the heck out of me, I guess. Yeah, no, I understand. But I think that we need to take a bigger picture of it from a behavioral standpoint and be able to look at that is that some of what you're saying is true. But there are reasons of why some people end up in and staying in the site work.

And some people are in the office and stay in the office work. And so that mode of communication is something that is deep within their DNA structure and how they communicate and how they talk. So it may not even be that they're recognizing what they're doing. They may not even understand that their inability to be able to communicate with someone is based on their communication style. And so that's important to remember as well because often we can see people that are in the site who might be more introverted, who might be more focused, who might be more doers instead of thinkers. and that's a personality trait and a behavior that is not for any reason purposely ignoring what the office person is telling them. It's just that they can't comprehend. It's like talking a different language literally.

They can't comprehend what that office person is saying. I'll just throw in a little example here. My husband is a demolition contractor and I love him dearly. But we can literally be talking about the exact same. thing and I'm hearing what he's saying and I'm just like, I don't understand why he's not getting what I'm saying. And we were looking at a set of drawings last night together and I'm like, okay, so he goes, well, they told me the whole building needs to be demoed. And I go, okay, well, these drawings don't do you any good then because it's a different scope of work than what they told

you. And he goes, yeah, I know, but they told me it all needed to be demoed. I'm like, okay, well, then you have a base bid and you have a change order. order. And he goes, but they told me. And so that's when you just stop the conversation because the communication style, unless you're willing to come at it, a multiple different setups. So you have to kind of change the direction that you're going to be giving that same piece of information, just to see if something hits. And if not, then just stop and step back for a second and let everybody just kind of absorb before it gets to an emotional state where then we're frustrated and upset and can't hear anything. Right, right. And vice versa, what do you think that

the field doesn't appreciate from the management side the most? Yeah. So this is an easy one because, again, the ego and arrogance that comes from the office sometimes is it's not misinterpreted, but everybody has an idea of when the project's going to get done. And if you're out on the job site and you're a laborer, you don't know that the meeting that just took place talked about four or five different change orders that added to the scope of work, but the project still needs to get done by the due date, by the contract. And so the office is going out there and they're throwing around orders and why isn't this getting done and who's responsible for this. And it's, again, communication is just not meshing between the two. And it's like it's like a Grand Canyon.

right down the middle of site and office. Yeah, so difficult. I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't know, you know, what the solution is. Because, you know, we talk about like the morning huddles and all these things that are great from a communication standpoint. But it's so difficult when, you know, we have the site that's an hour away from the office. And that's not really reliable. We can't do it for in the morning and expect them all to be there.

So, you know, I guess, have you seen it done? where that morning huddle or maybe even it's a regular meeting, even if it's on site, do you think that's what needs to happen as management needs to go to site so that the production still happens? I really do. I think that it is something where if you have a once-a-week meeting and you have everyone feeling inclusive, everyone knows the scope, it doesn't mean that they understand it, but they know that you have an appreciation for their comprehension of what is going to happen.

that week and how their participation in that is going to be a part of the successful plan that occurs during that week, that it's a really important thing. But the humanistic and the touch and all of that that needs to happen. And I mean, you guys are supposed to be having tailgate safety meetings anyway. So it's like, why not just take five minutes of that safety meeting and explain, you know, this is what we're doing. This is why. This is why your place in this is so important. Right. Yeah. And like the other component that has been missing from the construction industry is that recognition piece. Like, you know, everyone, it's human nature. We all want to be pet on the back, whether that's from a peer or from an outside or from your spouse

or from whoever that is, it completely fills you up, fills up your bucket, right? When you are recognized, especially in public, it could really stretch for another month or two or whole quarter, right? But that has been a missing piece forever. There's been kind of a weird thing about, hey, we really don't want to recognize because we don't want them to get lazy. They're doing a good job, but we just wanted them to continue to do a good job. I feel like we recognize them that they're going to pull back. Well, and we might have to pay them more. And they might expect something, you know. So, I mean, it's the, the recognizing of, you know, the, the, recognizing of what people have accomplished is not just important for a personal fulfillment and satisfaction.

It's also very important for them to have guidance and clarity of the direction they're going is correct. And so being able to be influenced and supported in the going in the right direction is going to be able to help you streamline and accelerate that opportunity. And so, yeah, we like to be patted on the back. We've gotten smiley faces on our homework for years. And so So having something that gives us an understanding that we're appreciated and that we're doing a good job is important, but it's also letting us know and understand that what we're doing is right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's so strange. So on the labor side of things, like, you know, we've obviously had a well-documented labor shortage guilt gap for decades now. And it's been a slow process to get here. You know, where do you feel we're at now and where are we headed? in the next five to 10 years. And before you ask that, from my own experience, with this economy being a little bit, a little bit more unstable. And here in California, we've had,

actually, we've had a winner this year. And that's made things kind of slow down. And there's been some pause and there's been some, you know, lack of productivity. There's been a lot of not working. And I think that I love that our crews and our labor force is making a living wage now. I think that's, that's awesome. but they've they've been able to kind of dictate terms and including how much they want to make for the last several years, especially through COVID, because we had very little availability of labor. And I think with this change in the economy, there is a little bit of a balance that feels like we're coming back into some sort of balance for us. Is that what you're seeing in the marketplace as well?

We will always have a shortage of skilled workers. And I feel that until we understand how important our public education system is and we're ready to invest in our children at very young ages, it's going to continue to happen that way. We've now moved what should be happening in junior high as an opportunity to explore occupations and different hands-on work and be able to learn different learning styles through vocational education. and we've moved that into a community college level where they now have to pay very expensive fees in order to be able to decide whether or not this is for them. And so that exploration of being able to be in construction has gotten really expensive. It used to be with dad in the garage or it used to be with mom out in the garden. And so we were able to do that until we became a two-salary family that now has to leave these kids

to this computer age where they really don't learn about computers the way we need them to in business. They don't learn Excel. They don't learn word. They learn a lot of words playing these games, but it's not preparing them. And so what it has also done is it's removed their experience of being able to receive endorphin and feelings of energy and emotion that are pleasing to them by physically, doing something with their hands and their work. So by removing that and not requiring it in high school, they now have become lazy and they now have become where they don't think that they really want to work.

They don't understand the joy that a lot of us get from being able to do something with our hands and then stand back and say, wow, I was part of that. I was part of that team. And so I feel that where we're going is really, it's going to be a two-sided, opportunity. And with construction management online, we actually are going to be opening up registration April 1st for what's called the Mastermind Mentor Membership. And this is going to be an opportunity for those that are elders and seniors in the construction industry to be able to learn how to teach entry-level workforce coming into construction. And the purpose of having to do that is because

they have excellent industry knowledge. But in construction, we've been taught to keep things very close to our chest because if we let anybody know that we know a lot of stuff, they're going to take our job and they're going to replace it with a college kid with a degree who doesn't have any practical experience because the owner will be able to pay for training that person in a larger construction company. Right. And so I feel that generational storytelling is going to become critical and having mentors that are going to be shadowed by these individuals coming in. I also feel that we need to lift up our elder

population, not because I'm like almost there, but because I feel that they really give that grandfatherly, grandmotherly view of historic information and historic data of how to do things. And they can, I mean, every superintendent I've ever been around, if you give him time to break down that hardcore exterior, he's going to tell you a really great story about how he used to do this or how this used to be the way construction was. And I feel that bringing that back is going to be a huge opportunity to be able to not only bring people interested in construction, but people who are coming from other industries who are tired of being treated the way they're treated in other industries want to make good money in construction

and then can use their foundational life mastery skills and transition those over and align them with skill sets that we need in the construction industry. Yeah, so true. I was telling you that I'm third generation. So my grandpa started in the 50s. So what you're describing is exactly right. I mean, the stories that he would tell and the stories of my dad would tell and then me going with my dad on appointments when I was, you know, five, six, seven years old.

Like all of those are just these, all these really good. great stories that I want to tell more of probably, you know, just because like you want to leave your mark and your legacy and your leave behind for the industry. So I feel like that's part of what I'm doing here. And so I think you're right. I think there's a lot of the seniors that have a story to tell. They really do want to tell it. They don't necessarily have a voice. They're not really typically doing stuff like this. This would be out of their comfort zone. But like there's there just needs to be a better leaf behind. And because it's, I see a huge opportunity for them because they can go into retirement.

They can be able to design their own career. They aren't going to hit the benefits package, which is why most companies won't hire anybody over the age of 55. They can be a really great quality control eye on a job site. They can lift the attitude of a job site, which just being on a job site that has a depressed energy, you can feel it as soon as you walk in. on that job site. And so I feel like there's a huge opportunity to be able to include people who really don't want to ever stop working. I mean, they just don't want to keep working as hard or as

many hours. And so I think it would be an extremely valuable asset that a lot of people are not taking advantage of. Yeah. In addition to that mastermind class that you're going to be rolling on in April, you know, a lot of us were modelers, small builders. We struggle with this labor shortage problem because it's so big and so vast, right? And we look at it as like, this is going to take a long time to correct. Well, but long, past me. So we kind of, a lot of us kind of throw our hands up and go, all right, we're just going to focus on our own business.

When really we'd like to be part of the industry solution, we don't want to be part of the problem. We do want to help. So besides some, a group like that, do you have any other advice on some small ways that a small remodeler, medium-sized remodeler like ourselves? Like, how do we chip away at this thing? Well, I'm an educator, so of course I'm going to say it is going to be through education. I have what also is a skill builder program, which just gives like really short courses that talks about all of the different types of skills that we have in construction.

And this is going to do two things. First foremost, is people individually have to be responsible for investing in themselves in order to be able to build and scale up. their knowledge platform. But secondly, is a lot of small and mid-sized companies just can't afford to have a robust training program the same as a large company would. And so by being able to encourage the opportunity to have like a construction management online that a smaller mid-sized company could have their employees look into and pay, you know, a monthly membership where they can go in and have access of how to build a submittal or how to put an estimate together. or all of those little fundamental skill builder opportunities,

then they can do it that way. But, you know, I think that we all know that we can't skip experience. And experience is going to be the most impactful opportunity for you to be able to expand. The problem is, or not the problem, but the difference is being able to streamline that experience with education so that you are gaining the experience in the right areas so that you can have a straighter line from start to completion. Yeah, so true, so true. And here comes like the biggest problem right here that I see.

So because of the labor shortage, you know, owners and managers are afraid to elevate all of these great and very qualified people from the field because they're afraid they can't replace them. You know, they're afraid that, you know, they're afraid of everything. paying them more the whole nine yards but the main thing i see is that it's almost like keeping them under their your thumb right it's like we want them right there because they're really freaking good at it but they also are well they're more than qualified to go up the next step so what do you say to owners that are that are stuck in this position and you know i guess to convince them that this is

not the right way to run your business. Yeah, so it's definitely not the right way because you're going to lose that person regardless, right? If you don't let them do what they are built to do, they're going to go somewhere else. A lot of people are afraid to invest education into their employees because they think that their employees, they'll spend the money to train their employee and then their employee will go off somewhere else. And this does a couple of different things. first and foremost, it lets the company that that employee is going to know that you have a really great program and that they better be careful because if you keep training people like you train the person they stole, then you're going to be in their shoes and you're going to be big one day.

But the other thing is this construction world is so small that if you're really careful about not burning your bridges, you're probably going to end up right back where you started because it was a great company to begin with and you appreciate the investment that they put into. you. But I think that your question has a couple of different things. First and foremost, is not everybody's built to be a project manager, construction manager, or go into the office. And some people enjoy being a superintendent. They enjoy being able to come in at work at 630, be able to leave at 3.30, be able to have, you know, soccer practice with their kids and everything else. And although a superintendent still has some very similar aligned responsibilities as far as schedule and budget and understanding

that the office does, when you're in the office, it's a 24-7. I mean, literally, you're the one that's going to get the call all the time. And if something happens on the site, it'll be the superintendent, but the project manager most likely is going to be buffing a lot of those calls. So the thing about the companies that are suppressing somebody who's ready to grow, you have to be very vocal and communicative with that person. Making sure this is, is the right move, making sure that this is something that they want, making sure that they have what I call a transition bridge, that they have the education to be able to get them from the site to the office in order for them to be successful. I think one of the hardest things that I see

is that people will promote someone from the field into the office and expect them to know what needs to be done. And it sets them up for failure. And then they end up. going straight back to the site. And that kind of does, that's a demoralization that occurs because it feels like a failure when really it's not their failure. It's just a failure for them to be educated. And so it's a tough one. Yeah, it's like we're exacerbating the labor shortage problem though, because if we're not

advancing them, if they're not, if the field is not seeing their top guys advance, then it all just becomes a commoditization, right? Then it all becomes about the money. Then they will just keep moving around from job to job because they're going to look at it and go like, well, he can't, he can't make it there. So let's just make as much money as we can doing this. Well, it's really hard, right? Because it's a bottleneck up at the top. So you can only have so many vice presidents of a company or what have you. So that part of it makes it tough. But I would say that the other aspect of it is that you know, you always are training somebody. You're always two steps ahead of someone or two steps behind someone. And you should always be training someone to take your position. And I think that,

you know, especially being a teacher, I know that being a good teacher means that you're a better student. I think that some of the understanding that, you know, when you're teaching someone who's going to be taking your position, you actually become a better master of your own position because you have to break it down into such a way that you never really thought of it that way. And you start finding different ways to be able to resolve your own problems. And so I think that, you know, really helping people understand that just because you're training that person doesn't mean that person's going to take your spot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems like you kind of answered this one like the education is one of the most important pieces of that transition but how what are some

other strategies to get that that person to the office and setting them up to win as opposed to hey yeah come on come aboard and then here's your desk and then that's it like how do we what are some good strategies to do this well definitely mentoring and shadowing is huge and that needs to be a big part of it but i'll talk about something that we haven't talked about yet and I really hate talking about it. And that's probably because I am a type A construction worker, and it's, you know, it's understanding vulnerability and understanding authenticity and sincerity. So the things about these is these are really important qualities.

And these are qualities that if you're able to be vulnerable and able to be able to talk to someone and let them know that, you know, you're scared about going into this one position or there's certain aspects of it that you don't understand. In construction, we typically see that as weakness. We see that as you not really being able to perform the job, therefore why did we promote you? You were the one that was in the site saying that you wanted it, figure it out, you know? And it's just this is a new era that we're in

where particularly our younger workforce are asking for some of those qualities, but I think they're asking for different reasons. So when we're talking about equity and being able to use vulnerability and authenticity and that type of thing, we have to really be careful with the words that we're using and know that words do matter and making sure that we're using the correct definition when we're going to be using those words. because when we're trying to be vulnerable with someone on the job site, we don't want that to be used as a weapon against us somewhere down the line. And so that's just something that we need to be very aware as we walk through this

this glass, broken glass puddle that we're looking at. It's true that the younger generations are, you know, they're looking for a different thing from their employers. And, you know, I think the construction industry, We're always a little bit slow to get to some of these things, especially we talk about vulnerability and diversity, equity, inclusion. All these things are like a little bit slow for us to really, I think, understand for one. Like you said, like we have to fold the understanding before we can do it ourselves. Then you're not authentic, right?

Well, it's hard to have an appreciation for it. When everybody's told us to get a thicker skin, put your head down, you know, pound sand, go get it done. I mean, so it's really hard to have an appreciation for that. the problem is, is that they were built much different than we were growing up. They didn't have to go through a depression. They didn't go through a World War II. I mean, what was it? It was like 20 years and no war has ever been experienced by that particular generation. So there's a lot of struggles that people our age and older have had to go through that provide historical evidence to us of why we just need to be resilient and why we need to get it done. And then sometimes,

we have a little bit of resentment against someone wanting us to treat them like a child in a very grown up career and opportunity and construction. And in a tough, very high anxiety, high stress, deadline, get it done. We got millions of dollars on the line and then have to baby somebody through it. You know, it's pretty much like figure it out. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with this because it's the whole guy thing too, right? Like you said, it's the, you know, toughen up, don't cry. Like all the things that we're taught when we're young.

And then really, it doesn't, it doesn't benefit you when you were, you want to be a good manager or an owner or a leader, really. These are all counterproductive. Well, look what it's done to men. You know, men have closed up 100% and have kept this stress inside them. And so the opportunity then to be able to express them. in this very high-stress environment when they're usually coming from a high-stressed environment, whether it be incarceration, whether it be a vet, whether it be somebody who was a little down

and out and thought that this was their only option because they couldn't go to college. And so they're already not feeling the very best about themselves and then coming into an industry that has all of these demands. So not being able to talk about that and express that is also, It's chronic pain that is being held by your body that is causing a lot of people to have stress that they don't know how to deal with. Yeah. Yeah.

It's definitely an issue. And I think talking about it and trying to wrap our minds around us is an important step for us. But, you know, I do feel like we have a long ways to go, especially from the men standpoint. I think there is a lot of us that are kind of afraid to speak up a lot of times. like, you know, we're just kind of like in this middle ground, you know, like we're, we're kind of understanding, you know, where we need to go, but we also are stuck in our old ways and we still have, you know, old mentors or people in our past that are still hold us pretty accountable to certain things. So it is, it's definitely a weird spot to be in. But I think

I'm hopeful that we're on the right path, though. And, and I think that we can't, we couldn't said that, say, 10 years ago. Like, I think that we're at least on the right path. It doesn't mean we're there where we've arrived. We never will, but at least we're kind of knowing where we need to go, I guess. Yeah, and I think, too, that it's really important to recognize that most women that are in construction are heavier in their masculine energy. And so they, too, are going to have some of the same issues and problems of men of being

able to communicate with other women or be able to communicate outside of that box. And I think that the, um, the, this advantage of calling it masculine versus feminine energy, because if I told men they needed to be heavier in their feminine energy, I probably would have a bunch of guys that would be really mad at me. Yeah. Yeah. But it's really not genderized. It's just a description of the type of energy that we're talking about and construct.

Construction is very heavy in masculine energy. So when we do that, we tend to hold things in. We tend to just go and thick skin, get it done, push on. And we do need to practice being more feminine in our energy. Right. Well, I wanted to get a couple more questions here. So one of them was the, you know, I guess how did you come to create construction management online?

And like, what is your current kind of makeup of the class and, you know, who's coming there now and why. I'm just kind of curious as to as to who's there now and then kind of how we can help support that. Because like you said earlier, you know, we need to have these educational resources in place for our own staff. And we're a perfect example of that where we're a medium sized company. We don't have built in educational programs. We need these outside resources to help us train our employees. We don't have time to do ourselves. So with that being said, it's kind of a long question, but I wanted to kind of find out how you got to it and then kind of what it looks like now. Well, I appreciate it. I really developed it because of the things that I saw were not working

in the college classroom. And so I wanted to be able to bring something that was going to be able to support what I was doing in the college classroom. The college classroom is going to be more about construction technical concepts. But really this human design, behavior comprehension, and soft skill development is something that is not taught in the terminology of construction. And so being able to weave the two together was my goal. I've spent the last two years identifying all of the things in order to be able to make it a program that is suitable for those that are in construction. So with the thought process of, you know, shorter timeframes of, you know, shorter chapters, shorter paragraphs, being able to have video along with some of the

reading, you know, the only thing, we're doing construction management, so the hands-on aspect is really more through a workbook product that we have. And so the whole purpose of it really is to everybody starts off with the same five classes. And those five classes are able to then prepare you with mindset, prepare you how to learn about what to learn instead of learning about something. And then understanding the history of construction and construction management and why it goes through the paces that it does so that you have that overall big picture, not only to understand construction, construction management, but also because there might be opportunities out there that you're unaware of that suit your personality and your skill set very well. We want to try to do what we can to be working in our

genius zone. So working in those skill sets that we're naturally good at that we don't have to think very hard about performing because we're very passionate about it and it comes easy. And so being able to put that together. And then we have another course that is kind of like the introductory into all of the paths that we have. And that course is identifying your master plan and where you're going to be in life so that we can then use that as an assessment while you go through your path and then do a reassessment at the end so that you can understand where you're going to go from there. because even after you complete any of my programs, you always have to be, you have to come to the realization to be a forever student. And in order to do that, you have to understand love learning.

And to be able to be a forever student allows you to be able to go through these courses knowing that you're not going to absorb everything. You're not going to learn everything in the course. But if you catch the foundational base of it, when it comes back around, when you're ready to accept it, it will be there. And so having having that is really, really critical. So it sounds to me like you have kind of both ways. Like so you have for us, you have the person that is is trying to find out where they would best be suited in a management role. And then also one that maybe kind of knows where they want to go, but getting some of more of that narrow focus in some of those, you know, how to be a project manager, all those types of things, right? Yeah.

Absolutely. And our skill builder courses kind of help support things that you normally wouldn't learn in a classroom, but that a superintendent doesn't have time to walk you through. And so we're able to provide that opportunity for them. But again, just being able to see a big picture of what the construction management industry is. And it is also, again, a very great opportunity for those in other industries who, already have really strong management skills and just need to make a slight adjustment in order to be able to align their skill sets with construction. Okay, nice. And then in addition to those courses, then you also are looking into that mastermind group. Is there any other kind of, where do you see this going? I mean, obviously education is a huge component. And really, like you said, a component to the labor shortage too. Like, we need more education. There's not enough of it, especially at a young age. So where do you see this headed in the next five, ten years?

Well, I would love to have 10 partners who are all as passionate about education as myself because it is a lot of work putting this all together myself. And I'll tell you just honestly, the social media aspect of it and being able to keep up on the marketing part of it is probably the hardest thing that is outside of my zone. because I want the message to be able to get out there. But at the same time, I really want to focus on the material I'm producing to make sure that it gives a real authentic picture for someone who's coming into this industry. So it's going to be big, whatever it is.

And it's going to be amazing. Well, I like that you said that because, you know, this is part of what I want to be as a resource for people like you and for our network is like, hey, if you have certain needs and what you're looking for is potential partners or people who can assist you on the marketing side. You know, I want to, I want you to be able to use this video and say, hey, this is what we're all about. Can you help? Because I think there's what, what I see a lot in the industry is that we all have a lot of pride, me included, for sure. Do I have a little ego? Yes. Yes, I do. And I think that the tendency is that we want to create things our own. Like we want to do it from the ground up.

But unfortunately, as you're finding, it is so, you only have a certain amount of hours of the day. And sometimes it's just easier and better to partner with somebody that already has something in place and then come together and build it together, as opposed to reinventing the wheel every time. And I think there's a lot of that going on, especially in technology right now, is that it's kind of blown up. But now there's just so many products. that it's going to start to kind of weed back down again because we do need technology, but we don't need 5,000 of one thing. And I think that that's the tendency that we have is like, hey, I have an idea, let's do it,

when really we should be working together a little bit more as an industry. No, I really appreciate that comment because when we go in and we splinter off into a million different pieces, we can't have any power or strength. That's when we come together and we're able to support each other. And I'm certainly not trying to splinter off in any aspect other than the fact that I just really think that it's very important for people to be able to understand how behavior plays into how we treat each other and what we're doing. And that being able to intertwine that into a construction industry that for very long time has not seen that as a strength. they've seen it as a weakness. Yeah, totally.

I think you're doing, you're definitely doing the right thing. I like the component of the soft skills and like you get into the energy and the nature. And there's just so many other layers to this, to people, you know, than just the material. And I think that's what you have is like that experience from the field.

You have the experience from the office. You have an experience from educator. You have, but you also have like that. And maybe it's partly the horse thing. that you have like this nature energy too, that really is, it makes education so much better because it's just way more well-rounded

than just material, material, material. It's just so keep doing what you're doing. I'll support you how I can, and I appreciate you being here. Well, I appreciate that. And yes, horses are very intuessional and I love everything about them. But I also am an avid learner.

And so I've spent a lot of time, time researching and learning all of these different modalities and trying to put them all together so that everyone else doesn't have to go through all of the programs that I've already gone through. You're going to get the summary and the best of the best. But thank you so much for having me today. It was a great talk and I do really appreciate it. You're totally welcome. And the best way to get a hold of you, construction management online.com or dot org, I forgot. It's construction Managementonline.com. Okay, got it.

And then on LinkedIn as well, correct? Yes. Okay, great. Well, we'll connect with you. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Correct. Bye, Corey.

Thank you guys for being here for another episode of Construction Executives Live. If you're on LinkedIn watching this, we have another great show next month. Again, it's the first Wednesday of every month, so that'll be April 5th. And the topic here is going to be building your ideal business while preserving your valuable time with host of my favorite construction podcast, Builder Nuggets. Duane Johns is going to be joining us. And we're going to be really good into that. Like, let's start looking at strategy. Let's, you know, we're going to, we all spend 20 to 30 years in our business.

Sometimes we close the doors and we have really nothing to show for ourselves. Let's start looking to the future and building this thing. of with more longevity, but still preserving our valuable time. We need to create valuable time in our lives. We need family. We need friends. We need time with their kids. We don't want to just work in construction.

So it's going to be a great topic. If you're in LinkedIn, go ahead and register now. That way it hits your calendar right now. Again, thank you so much for being here. And I appreciate your time. And we will see you next time. You've been listening to In The Zone with Jeremy and Valerie Olmes. Be sure to subscribe to In the Zone and stay in the know with the best minds in the construction industry.

To nominate an innovator or change maker in the construction industry, connect with your management peers, and stay up to date with construction industry news. Be sure to visit usconstructionzone.com.