Business Innovators Radio - Episode 52: The Price Is the Price: Building Trust in a Low-Bid Industry

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

In remodeling and construction, the cheapest bid often gets the most attention—but it rarely tells the full story.In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Doug Riggs, Co-Owner and President of Creative Roofing Co. and founder of Riggs Home Builders, to talk about building trust in an industry where homeowners are skeptical, competitors are underbidding, and quality is often hard to explain.They discuss how great contractors educate clients, protect their margins, stand behind their work, and create value beyond price. This conversation is about more than roofing—it is about what it takes to run a referral-worthy construction business without racing to the bottom.In The Zonehttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/in-the-zone/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/episode-52-the-price-is-the-price-building-trust-in-a-low-bid-industry

Welcome to In the Zone and Construction Executives Live, brought to you by U.S. Construction Zone, bringing you strategies for success with construction innovators and change makers, including In The Zone peer-nominated national award winners. Here's your host, Jeremy Owens. Welcome back to In The Zone Live. I'm your host, Jeremy Owens, owner and founder of three generations improvements and U.S. Construction Zone out in sunny, northern California, where it is his hat. 100 degrees out here. Feeling like summer these days. Happy summer to all of you. Welcome. Thanks for being here, working on your business

and personal life today. We are sponsored by the great, great business over at Contractor Huddle Brands, build12.com. Automate your construction business into a revenue generating machine with the Build12 system.

Visit build12.com. Contact less, have them do a free demo. You should just talk to us anyways. He's a great person to help you with your business and both Doug and I know less well. We're also sponsored by Builder PayPro, the construction payment platform that saves you time, money, and get you paid fast. Pay 0% credit card processing fees and accept ACH payments and utilize a state of their art invoice. It directly connects with QuickBooks, really easy to use. Visit BuilderPaypro.com. That's a

Twister, and I will show you that demo. And think about today's show centered around the subject of pricing. Boy, have we all had this come up in our businesses at one point or the other? How to price it, where to price it, what level the price it at, especially when competing with bidders and all these people who only have one answer when they're not winning jobs, and that is to lower their price. So we've got a great show for you today. It's going to be very helpful for your business.

The show today is called The Price is the Price, Building Trust in a Low Bid Industry. In remodeling construction, the cheapest bid often gets the most attention, but it rarely tells the full story. In this episode, I get the chance to talk with Doug Riggs, co-owner and president of Creative Riffing Company and founder of Riggs Home Builders, to talk about the building trust in an industry where homeowners are skeptical, competitors are underbidding, and quality is often hard to explain. We will discuss how great contractors educate clients, protect their margins, stand behind their work, and create value beyond price.

This conversation is about more than roughing, is about what it takes to run a referral-worthy construction business without racing to the bottom. Our guest today is Doug Riggs, is the co-owner and president of Creative Riffing Company, a family business with over 43 years of roughing experience. stepping into a legacy business We're very similar like this.

Doug brings a modern strategic perspective while honoring the standards and reputation built over decades. In addition to creative roughing, Doug is the founder of Riggs' home builders, which gives him a full unique spectrum of understanding construction from the ground up. Outside of business, Doug also is a licensed pilot, flying both helicopters and airplanes, bringing a perspective of precision, discipline, and accountability into how he leads his company.

Please help me welcome Doug Riggs. Doug, thanks for being there. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yes, of course. I tell my kids often that I wish someone would just introduce me like that. Just like piping in my house at all times. But they don't give a shit.

Not about what we do. Not at all. Well, thanks for being here. Tell us a little bit about your industry experience. I mean, you're a lot like me and that you've kind of been around it for a while. Yeah, yeah. So thanks for having me, first of all. It's a pleasure to be here. And yeah, I grew up in a larger family. My dad started the company pretty much had a necessity, you know, back in the 80s. And, you know, young man, large family got to work. He was actually

working for, you know, somebody at one point and then decided to make the break and decided to start his own company. So yeah, I've always been around it. I've always, he had six boys. So we were, we were the workforce for a while. And I just, every summer, you know, my dad was very good about saying that my job was, was education was very important about that. But he also knew the value of hard work. So every summer, I was out there growing up, making money. And yeah, so been around it a lot, but as you said, I was a pilot. So I veered off from the full-time construction work for a couple of decades, but was always in the trades, always back to help out, and it always brought me back. So, yeah, I mean, did, did he have you up on a Rist at a young age, or were you

clean job sites, or what was your first thing? Yeah, I remember, I was always on job sites, mainly cleaning garbage, you know, 15 years old, just help slinging shingles or doing something that I can do. I remember we had a friend that, have a friend that moved to Hawaii many years ago. And being from the Sacramento area originally, we had a lot of rain in the winter. So we would go out to larger jobs in Hawaii. It was very fortunate to go help out for months of the time. And I remember being about 14 or 15 years old on a three-story hotel and carrying tithell, stacks of tile, and just placing them. And the guests were not too happy to to see this young kid up on top of the roof.

But I just, yeah, it was just a thing that you. Like a nature for you, I guess, huh? Yeah, yeah, you just did it. And you didn't think about it when you're younger, you know, and then you got older, you're like, I guess I can see what they're talking about. I guess, I guess. So family business, 43 years, you know,

what does it feel like to kind of step into that legacy and carry it forward? Obviously, 43 years ago, I mean, that's definitely where my dad was. He was in the 70s. My grandpa was in the 50s. Just nothing similar to what we deal with now. So it is almost like an entire new business in a lot of ways, right? Yeah, for sure, especially with, you know, newer generation, newer ideas, you know,

I think the hardest part is my dad grew up in a spit in a handshake era. You know, word is my bond. If I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. And that's great. But as things progress, and he was also very okay with his small little group of his one crew. Like, I'm running this crew. I have my hands on every little piece of this puzzle. And so the quality is second to none because you're literally watching everything.

But as time goes on, you know, you do need to grow. You do need to make adjustments. And so I think that that's a big point where you're trying to respect the legacy that it came from and keep that mentality. But at the same time, implement new ideas. And with the family aspect of it, you got your head button sometimes. Yeah. Do any of your brothers join with you? Yeah.

Most of them, most of them are, they were all in the same. the trades. But most of them went to floor laying. One of my brothers married a woman whose father was part of the floor laying union. So going into floor laying and then naturally the other ones went with them. And so now, you know, that's kind of where most of them are. Okay. Got it. Well, that's cool. I mean, it's, it's funny talking about those past generations, the spit handshake and you know, you didn't have three-page contracts and, you know, three-day right to rescind. And, like, there was just so much different about it. And obviously, you didn't have cell phones and you were going to pay phones.

And it just was different. Like, networking was different. Obviously, you know, you relied on your network. There were a phone call away. But it just was different. But I guess what I love about it is that it did bring that integrity, the loyalty aspect. of kind of the old school ways of the trades, you know, forward. And where a lot of people who are starting businesses now, I mean, it's very tech forward.

It's very, you know, hands off, less personal. But I think the personality obviously needs to be there. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And then, you know, I want to talk a little bit about your background as a pilot. You know, I'm not, so I don't have an experience there. But how is that industry kind of shaped, you know, some of what you bring to the table in your construction companies? Well, I think a big part of the pilot side actually help me be comfortable with taking the leap in general to being an owner because we spend most of our time risk mitigation.

You know, it's risk versus benefit. There's always going to be a certain amount of risk involved. And so your job as a pilot is, always be figuring that out. If I do X, what is it going to happen over here? Right. So, you know, I think the big part of it when I was, my dad father got older, it became more apparent that I was going to be taking over.

And it was kind of unplanned at the moment. So I had to make this decision. Eventually, the company just started growing to the point where I couldn't do both. I had to make a choice. So that risk mitigation aspect of it, and that analytical side of my brain. really help me to make that jump. On the other side of things, you know, there's checklists, there's deadlines, there's systems

and processes, and there's a customer service aspect to it. There's still all these other elements involved with flying an aircraft with precision. Aviation is not inherently dangerous, but it's inherently unforgiving. So having those systems, and processes and things in place has been a real big asset that when I came over in the modern world, a lot of those things carried over. You know,

they might be different systems, but you still need the systems in place. Yeah. So when did you start kind of systematizing your business? I know that's something that a lot of us struggle with or I think you just get in the grind, right? You get busy and, you know, months and years go by and you're like, oh, shit, I didn't get that done. and I didn't get that done.

You know, it's like you're just kicking the can down the road. But, I mean, I think that when you can start to create those systems, boy, does it make your life easier, doesn't it? It does. And Les was my guy. Yeah. He was the one that helped me really see the importance of that. And then one thing I loved about his segment almost too much is that he has a book

that he always likes to have you read and things that. So you take all the things. this information from people and you put it into place. And yeah, putting these systems into place are not only like valuable, but it's necessary, especially today. Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, you know, we're in California. People costs and the, it's difficult to just freaking own a business here.

Yeah. You know, let alone like throw bodies at it is just the last thing you want to be doing. And, you know, I think that's kind of what we grew up in is that there was a problem. You need a, you need out of person to fix it. And I think now with tech and with systems and our CRMs that are able to do things for us, that, you know, now we can look at that first and then maybe plug the hole that way because the body doesn't always fix it. That's for sure.

No. Unfortunately not. Sometimes it can't even make it worse if you're not careful. Yeah, totally, totally. Well, you know, the episode, you know, we called it the price is the price, building trust in a low bid industry. You know, when you hear that, what does it mean to you? You know, it was, price was a big thing. You know, when I first started taking over full time, the first thing that I started doing was sales.

I started really answering the phone. Every time somebody called, I was the guy that went out to these job sites. And so that was a big conversation between my dad and I. I'd go when I started varying off. So constantly coming back and I'm going, well, how much do we do this job? And he's been doing it for so long. He's like, 600 square. That's what I've always charged.

I'm like, yeah, but where's all that going? Like, are we sure that's the price? What is happening here? And so I really needed him to break it down for me. Like, where is this? Where are we getting this information? And how do I, you know, time is a big one, right? So you can't, prices change daily with material, you know, somewhat.

And so you're going, well, I'm out of job site. I got this person somewhat of price like quick. I can't afford to be sitting there going, okay, let me just stand by and call some people and figure out what everything costs. So it just started this whole conversation of what really is the price and what do things cost. And what are the hidden costs? Because, you know, at first, I'm going, oh, look at this, X amount for this,

for material, and then labor should cost this much. I mean, this much is for profit. And he's like, and overhead. And, and, and, and, right. Yeah. So price, when you first initially started talking about price, it, yeah, it was definitely one of the biggest first hurdles to think about. And then I got to a point where I was bidding it with what we calculated.

And I was just getting told no. Well, this person over here is way less. Wait, what? How? And so, you know, that's, it's such a, it's such a confusing aspect when you're going, and even now, when you get new sales reps, they're going, how is it so different from this person to this person? And so it's always a big conversation right off the bat. Yeah, definitely. And I know that every segment of our industry has different margins.

They compete with, you know, obviously if you're talking commercial and, you know, you're a home builder, there are different things. But when it comes to the home service and remodeling industry, I am shocked at how low people are pricing their projects for. And I don't know about you, but, you know, this year has been kind of hit and miss and kind of been a weird market. I think California is feeling some things here. And we've had challenges in sales and our, you know, a lot of the feedback we've been getting is price. And like, so we've seen our competitors lower, lower, lower.

And we're going like, hey, we all kind of have similar prices. Maybe our rent is different and those types of things. but, you know, they're running in the 20s. And that's shocking because I think our break-even point probably when you factor in the people costs and the insurance and the tax and California, it probably is around there. So I feel like there's a lot of cash flow business companies around us. And that's scary for them. It's a disadvantage for us because we're just constantly talking about this stupid P word.

You know, but why do you think homeowners are always like defaulting to this? You know, it's almost like their default, you know, go right to it right away. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think some of it's self-preservation, right? You're wanting to protect what you have in your bank as well. You're, you know, I try to put myself in the homeowner's position. And, you know, I think about it. And I'm like, well, today, if I had to come up with 30 grand for a roof, how would that make me feel?

You know, pretty dang scared if I don't know what I'm doing. That's a big chunk of change, you know? And so it's like I do try to think about that. But I think another part of it is that you get a barrage of just information overload, right? You're getting things. The internet has got people to where they start scrolling. And next thing, you know, they're clicking on something that says, oh, I got screwed over by a contractor.

next thing you know, their algorithm is just filling their head with all these scary stories. And they're like, no, I can't do that. And, you know, maybe, and I don't know this because I'm no, you know, expert in that field necessarily. But it's like, so maybe some of these people are thinking, well, I'm probably going to get screwed anyway. So I might as well save my money. You know, at a level of that, I think that goes on where they're like, I mean, I tell people there's an upgrade to a 50-year shingle that we have. that is well worth it in many situations. And you get an older couple who say 60 years old and they got a lot of life left.

And they go, I'm not going to be here for 50 years. I don't care. So it's like, but no, there's other reasons to do that. So I think that there's a level of that too that goes on. Yeah, it is, it's odd. I mean, I think you're right. I think what I've seen too is that we get hit with price increases. I mean, pretty much twice a year.

year from every freaking manufacturer we have. Three to six percent twice in the last six months for material down here. Are they saying, is that oil-based fuel-based? Yeah. That's the thing. That's the tricky thing. Did they ever give you a price decrease? No.

They don't. And that's the part where it's frustrating because, you know, homeowner will come back to us that we gave them a proposal maybe a year or two ago. And you just like, dude, sorry. And it's like literally just the extra costs that we have. So I get what you're saying there that from a homeowner standpoint, these are costly endeavors. And remodeling is we basically can say it every year.

It's the highest has ever been. And then next year it'll be the highest it's ever been. So I get that. And I don't know what I don't know how to solve that. I feel like we are in a tough part where it's like you can't keep doing this. and our income stays the same. Like, I don't know, something's got to give. Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, definitely. So looking at, you know, when thinking about homeowners, you know, when they're looking at several bids, you know, obviously most states are, you know, require or not requiring, but they're suggesting that homeowners get three, that kind of thing. What do you think they're looking at? You know, when they're looking at some of your roughing proposals, you know, Obviously, a lot of people probably just go right to the final number, but what should they be looking for? Well, I'll back up just a little bit and say that you're right.

Most of the time what they're doing is they've been told three bids probably drop the really low bid. You just want to get rid because that's probably Joe Schmoe that doesn't know what he's doing, drop that. Then you left with the middle and the high bid. And most of the time they're like, yeah, you can get rid of the high. So let's just go with the middle one. That's their guess. You know, and, you know, roofing is is very complicated. And I get a lot of people who are even in the trades that are like, oh, yeah, I can crush that.

I can crush that. And then you start asking them questions and they're like, what do you mean? Okay. So it is, it's difficult even for people in the industry. So what could they look for? Well, first of all, they need to look at apples to apples. look at the two different bids and look at what they're actually offering. Is it all inclusive?

Is this, you know, I always, and I'm sure we'll talk about it more, but I always try to talk about the two things that could possibly change the number. A lot of times people will give you a low number hoping to just get their foot in the door, then all of a sudden they're adding stuff. So what does that scope of work look like? What are you trying to do? And for us, we want to be as detailed as possible without being so detailed that you freak them out. So you want to know the full scope.

You know, am I and I'm going to continue to go back to roofing. And single trade is a lot different than the home building aspect. It's a lot easier for us on the single trade aspect to be a little bit more specific. because, you know, when you're doing a kitchen remodel, people have very different tastes in time. So it's a whole new level of, you know, stuff. But in general, the ideas are the same, right? You want to see what is the scope? What are they planning on doing?

What is my warranty worth? What kind of warranty? There's two different kinds. You know, there's different types of stuff. What is, you know, what, when you're scanning between the three, that's, that's kind of a, A great starting point is go to the California State License Board. Check them out. Are they even licensed?

Right. Is it active and current? And it's very easy. CSLB.com, contractor, look at it. Very simple start. And you'll get some information. And that's kind of the key, right? Gather the information outside of the price.

Right. First. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the Apple's, Apple's thing. I mean, you hear. that term throw it around a lot and even you'll hear it from

a homeowner every once in a while they'll say yeah we're looking at apples to apples and you're like no you're not you know like you're almost never I mean what they're doing is they're looking at the price and they're looking at the manufacturer so like maybe you're both you're pitching certainty and you're like okay this is about

a 20 year roof like that's all that's all they're looking at they don't look at the details and so that they're calling that apples the apples and And, you know, I don't know how to, you know, obviously the educating part, like we're both in that part of the industry where we're, we're the ones doing the educating, we're the ones talking about the flashing details and like the details, details, details.

But I think for a lot of people, that just goes over their head and a lot of people aren't reading that in the proposal. So they say apples to apples, but it's not really. And so how do you really get to that conversation with the homeowner, right? Right. And I think that that starts right from the day you show up. When you're bidding it, the day, day one, you are, when we do a bid, we don't just go around and say, this is what you need. We say, hey, let me tell you how this is built.

Let me show you some things that are important. Let me tell you about the history of what it used to be like. I'll give you an example. We tile, roof tile, concrete tile. the way it is here in California, you know, you're going to have your, your wood sheeting down, then you're going to put your underlayment, we call it paper, and then sometimes you have bats, and then you have the metal. Okay.

Well, if you're labeling all this, somebody will come up to you and say, hey, I want to take all the tile off and I want to fix the paper because the paper is what shot. Well, I've done, we've been on a hundred-year-old tile roof. That is the original roof. It does not have paper under it. It has nothing. And you look on the inside and you're like, oh, my goodness, I can see the tile. Now, if something breaks, it's coming right into your house.

So it's not a good setup. But is that there's things that have been done in the past that being in the company that's been around for a while, we can have that experience under our belt to say, you know, I know a lot of people are doing this. But let me tell you why I don't agree with it. And then you can kind of educate them from the start of it. show your portfolio of knowledge base to let them know like, I guess ultimately what we're doing is showing them how confusing it is to let them know we are the ones responsible for taking care of all those details because we do have that background.

That's part of the building trust aspect, you know, is the educate at the beginning. Some people really, really, you know, take to it. And some people are like, oh my gosh, just give me a number. Yeah. And I think that's kind of where we have sometimes is like we get, we get frustrated when they're not, you know, they're looking at a big number. You know, ours, like, maybe $50,000 is normal.

And, like, it's a big number. I get it. You think they would want to look at the details. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so that's where we get kind of frustrated is like, wow, like, that's a big investment to just kind of go right to the lower price. And then what we're finding is they'll go, you know,

maybe they'll go to CSLB, but they'll go to reviews. And the reviews to me is tricky because, you know, we have great reviews. And a lot of people have good reviews. And like, so it's like not really a huge differentiator anymore. It feels like every contractor is a 4.8 or something. And you're like, wait a minute. How is it possible that all these guys are crushing it at the lowest price, not paying their label well?

I mean, I just don't know. I just don't get it. It just feels like they're fake, right? right yeah no i totally agree i mean and then think about the ones that are i mean you figure you're going to get two ends of the spectrum people that are just like oh yeah it's easy enough i'll just give a quick five start i mean i think about that all the time with uber right every time it comes around it's like either right or one you're like did i really think about that over and that's kind of what people are doing i think they're just like clicking something and so i mean google reviews are great

we need them they're they're great they're great insight but yeah you can tell the difference between the person that just clicked a star, a person that wrote a paragraph about exactly why they love it. Yeah, if you're getting into the fine print, I'm sure. I mean, I'm looking at my Uber experience. I'm usually had a couple pops, so I usually go straight to the podcast. Hey, you got you got me home. Oh, yay.

Yeah, exactly. You know what? It's tough because, you know, I guess what do you feel the differences between expensive and overpriced? because I think that's a key component here is that I in my experience in sales you know growing up like you did in sales like you when you know you're doing it better or as good as anybody you sell differently right and I think some people know they're cutting corners right and no they're not paying subs well or maybe not paying them on time or they're so they have this thing in the back of their brain like okay I can't sell at a ad. that price. Right. Because they don't value themselves.

So I don't know. Let's talk about the expensive versus overpriced, because I think this is something that comes up a lot for me. Well, I think that's a one of them is pretty easy to explain, in my opinion. Everything's expensive in construction. It's all expensive. So, I mean, it's, it is. I mean, all around, it's, it's hard and it's expensive.

But I guess another way of saying it is, like you said, the price is the price is the price, what we're asking is, is it worth it? That's really the argument. And, you know, with roofing also a little different because it is an absolute necessity. Right. There's things inside that people want and people see every day. Remodels are a great example of that. They want it. Right. And there's a lot of gratification there. You know, I get to use the kitchen that I just built as opposed to, oh, thanks for the roof. Now I'm never going to look at it again. So, but, you know, is it worth it? So you start looking at the overpriced aspect of it, you know, that is a tough one because it's all value, it's perceived value, right? It's the value of what you're doing. So I guess what I'm saying is

that what else is coming with it? Because putting the material on and buying the, material and putting it on is one thing. Right. We're talking about value. So what happens? I don't know how many times I've been called and they say, yeah, I went with this company and it was about five years ago. Now we're having problems and they're out of business.

And I'm like, yeah. So how good? I'll give you a three, like a 30 year warranty. It doesn't matter. I'm out of business in five. Right. So, you know, there's that level of, of over what are you getting is ultimately the thing.

Yeah, and I think maybe that's the million dollar question for all of us is that how do we build the value enough for them to see it? And I think that's where we struggle. It's like, you know, if they're not interested in being educated, if they're not interested in reading the details, flashing, all that stuff, then how do we build the value enough in what we're bringing? And obviously, you know, for both of us, we're bringing a family business. We're bringing, you know, personal touch.

We're bringing experience. You know, we're bringing all these things to the table. But you have to almost hit them over the head with it in order for them to, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, yeah, that's right. Otherwise, they're putting them in their kitchen table and they're going to decide, like you said, I'll go with the middle one. Yeah. Because they all have a 4.8 here. So basically that means they're the same quality.

Right. And how much is 2.2 stars worth in monetary value? I look at the 4.8 guy because he is $7,000 cheaper. I'm going to go with him. It's like, I get it to a degree, but. Oh, it's so frustrating. I'm telling you, I don't know where the review thing's going, but we signed up with a diamond certified, like a third-party service,

because I feel like eventually it's going to have to go into this third-party thing where, you know, you're actually getting people calling the homeowners. You're getting actual feedback. You're not getting like these bot paid for, you know, you get these sales guys that will come up to them, pick up the check and like hand him a phone and be like, do it. And you're like, you're in front of me. Yeah. Well, I think, and I think when, you know, with this conversation of trust is a big one because

we're going back to our roots, you know, our fathers and our grandfather. They built something that I'm actually seeing full circle to where a lot of those values are becoming what you're paying for. For instance, I answer the phone. Right. You know, I'm I've done the whole. And you know what? I'm not ragging on them. Answering services work.

There's situations for everything, 100%. Right. I'm talking about for me and the way our business is going, the way that I run it and the type of clientele that I'm looking. for they appreciate calling the phone number and having somebody go hello you know and then so it starts there it starts with what do you got um don't act like you know all the answers because we don't you know like we're going to look them up it's okay to say you know what that's an interesting one i've never never thought about that when you have an interesting case let me look into that for you right um you know when we go onto our calls we we do everything we can to get a cell phone number

not because we're trying to get all of your personal information, but because when we have a 10 o'clock appointment, we're there at 10 at the latest. Right. We send a text message. We'll be there in 30 minutes. Right. Having that constant communication before we even start the process is as a great thing.

Right. You show up to a roof. Let them knowing that you're not there just to sell them a roof. You're there to take care of their problem. That's a difference. I went to a job yesterday where she was like, I have all this facial board, I have this,

I have this, and I talked her out of getting a roof. I'm like, you don't need it. This is what you need. So, you know, I'm hoping that in five years when it comes around,

she's going to call me. Right. But, you know, that's the level of, that's what you're paying for. Yeah. Ultimately,

I think that's what it boils down to at the end of the day. Yeah. And thinking about, too, for us and we're in a similar place in terms of like margin and where we're at in the market. You know, if you have the client that is just price, price, price, like, I don't care to lose them. Right. You know what I mean? Like, if that's their number one, then it's probably not going to be a great client for us anyways.

You know, just think of like the dry route situation. I mean, they're going to have a hard time with every single thing that is unforeseen. So for us, we don't really care. it's more, I care more about our competition, honestly. I care more about them not valuing themselves enough to price it fairly because that's what hurts us more than the stupid client that's going to take the low number every time. 100%. There's always going to be, and we say, I'm probably going to butcher the same, but like, anybody can buy cheap. Anybody can buy cheap. Not everybody can buy quality, you know.

Right. And that's the difference. And you're right. I try to tell my clients, too, sometimes when we have this, we don't always talk about it. But when we get into it, I always say, you know, I'm also interviewing you on these bids. Like, I'm not just, that's why I'm not charging you for that because I'm here to see if it's something I want to work with. If I, it sounds bad, but if I charge you to come out and do a bid, there's a level of expectation there. I paid you, so do something for me.

And you're like, no, I'm here for free. I'm here to check out whether I want to work with you or not. Yeah, it's so true. I think that's one of the best feelings you can have in the trades is turning down a client. I mean, honestly, it almost feels as good as a sale. I mean, it sounds weird because you're making zero. Yeah. But it's gratifying because you can see where it's going and you had enough experience

and you're like, oh, no, no, this isn't going to be a good fit. and they get pissed. They're like, wait, what? You know, like, no, I'm sorry. It's just not a good fit. You try to, like, kind of talk your way out of it, but it feels good. Getting back in the truck after that, I tell you, I've had some really good experiences where I'm like, that is the right move for everybody involved.

I could have definitely done that work and my crew would have been pissed. Yeah. You know, so it's like, you feel good about that too. And then you have the other side of it where you walk away from it and you realize a friend of yours from a different company took it. they're like, man, I should have just walked away. I was like, ah, ha, I told you. I don't know.

You're definitely right, you know, because there are definitely people who will take everything. You're like, all right, let somebody else handle that. That's the best approach. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, some of the red flags that homeowners should be looking for. You know, we talked about the CSLB, you know, obviously everyone's looking at reviews now. What are some other things that they should be looking for when they're looking at our quotes? I would say, you know, a big one for me is I'm a big people person. So a lot of what I based my decision off of is, and maybe it's just because of my background of my company,

but I'm reading the person too. Like I'm not just looking at the contract. What was the personality like when they showed up? What did they look like? What did their truck look like? did they take pride in it? Did they, were they cognizant of your home?

You know, we take our shoes off when we walk into somebody's home because I've done that. I've tracked in dirt on a beautiful white carpet because you're looking up at the ceiling and you're like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry.

You know, so what are you, what are they doing? Are they telling you, well, you have to sign right now. I'm going to give you $10,000 off if you sign right now. It's like, right. What is, what was the overall experience?

It's like that's a, that's a huge one. The level of comfortability that you have. When you told them no, because most people, I don't think I've ever sold a job outright in one sitting at that level. You know, small repairs, sure, they're like, and I've got people tell me, I'm ready, sign me up. Well, I'm going to go top of the contract and I'll have it sent out. But my point is, is that, like, it's, if you tell them, I got to think about it. Was it this high pressure salesman? You got to, those are the, I think are the red flags.

Like, what did they, what are they doing? Are they wearing a uniform? Yeah. Yeah, definitely the professionalism. I think the other thing that we probably see in both of our industries is heavy deposits. Yes. Even though California has up to $1,000, it's still a tricky little bastard, isn't it? It is.

They're asking for deposits. Yep. And that's because they're robbing for Peter to pay ball, you know. They're trying to pay off the last job that they just did because they underbid that one. So I think that that's the biggest one. Now, there are things on the contract to, you know, like you said, the license number, you know. I used to say, I've changed my tune a little bit, but the license number, you know, the lower the number, the longer they've been in business. Fortunately, my number is not as low as my father's because he was a sole proprietor.

Right. I couldn't accept it. So I used to go, oh, look at that low number. They must have been around a lot. Then I thought, ah, they could have just bought it. But either way, you know, what is the paperwork looking like? Is it, you know, do? they have all the information on there? Do they have the actual licenses that are needed? So that goes

back to doing your research after the fact. But I would say the, if they, if you get a contract that says, we'll re-roof with 30-year dimensional. Okay, you need a little bit more information than that. Like, what part of the roof are we, you know, what are the warranties? What, how long is this going to take? you know, there's a lot of detail information. So I think if they're willing to give a lot of details, then, then, you know, that's a good thing. Yeah. So I think that it's more the people than anything, in my opinion.

Yeah. Yeah, no, you're totally right. I mean, you talked a little bit about your proposal's not going too detailed. I think we have a problem with that ourselves. Like we're, you know, we have a problem with the client. We're like, right, I guess we have to add it to our proposals now. because it's like it feels like you get tripped up with like, oh, you know, the way this is, you know, written or there's no mention that you're not doing this. And so you're like constantly adding because someone bites you.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And the legal side. Everybody's so litigious, it seems that you're required to put enough in there to cover your basis. But at the same time, you don't want to go so much that you'd. doing a change order for every little thing because you changed a brand name versus it's the same thing but I'm just using a different brand. Nope,

I do a change order now because you didn't you because you specifically said you were going to do this. So it's a it's a fine balance. Yeah, it is. I mean, I'm sure you deal with a lot more unlicensed, you know, maybe low quality like truck and truck type people that are trying to, you know, get some rest done in your area. you know, what impact does that have on you and the market, I guess, where you guys were at? I think you said it perfectly. It's more of a problem than people just picking the lowest number.

You know, I can understand, you know, homeowners not understanding what's going on and picking the lowest number. I get that. That I understand. But having somebody who is winning jobs that does subpar work, that is completely unlicensed is that's my that's a big kicker because it's not just affecting you it's affecting every company out there and you're putting the safety of the homeowner at risk right there's a whole story that i tell people um and that was told to us by the state um a brother in law did his brother's house his brother-in-law's house he's a roofer he is a real roofer

but he wasn't working for anybody he was just joe schmo and he did the roof for his brother in-law to be just to be nice, save some money. He fell, broke his back, did not sue the brother-in-law. They were fun. However, the state went after him because he's on disability now. So the state said, I want my money back. So they went and took the house. So you can lose literally everything, even if that person doesn't do it to you. It's, it is now. is that going to happen every time? Absolutely not. I don't want people to freak out. But that's what, that's what we're paying for too. We're paying for workman's comp. We're paying for general liability. We're paying for this insurance. You know, I can light my truck on fire and drive it through your front

door. And I would go get in trouble and they'd rebuild your house for free. That's how much, that's how much we're covered. So having somebody unlicensed isn't just affecting pricing and everybody down the road. It's affecting your safety of your home. And we don't, I don't want that to happen to people. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, that's, that's a pretty good story. I might use that. That is, that is gross.

But that could definitely happen because you feel about like you're, you know, maybe you're using a sub and you think they're all quality guys. Yeah, they're not going to sue if something happens, but it's not just them that can do it, right? Yeah. We're in California. So, it's very possible. Yeah.

You talked a little bit about referral-worthy. you know, what does that mean for us practically? How can we be referral worthy? What does that mean for you? I try to instill that on my guys. I try to instill it on every level of our company. You know, I constantly, and I don't tell her this because she's my sister. She's constantly getting customers saying, who is that nice young lady on the phone?

She was really, really kind. I'm like, ah, that's my sister. But it's great. She's doing it. That's what we want, you know? Right. the guys, you know, I want them to be, you know, go above and beyond for the client. If it takes a little bit of extra time, that's okay.

We've planned for that because that's what we want to give. So I just think that it's on every level, you know. People are always watching. Always. Cameras are out. Phones are out. People are looking at stuff. You know, you've got to be, you've got to be at any point in time able to say,

I'm proud of what they were doing. Next door neighbors, you know, that's a big one. Turn one job into 10. Right. They're watching you. And if you're being conscientious of the ground, of the homeowner, you're making it comfortable for them. You know, everybody dreads. I don't know if you've seen that movie Money Pit, but it's amazing with Tom Hanks.

Everybody dreads that that's what's going to happen to their home. They're going to be stuck. So give them that peace of mind. help that you're good. Yeah, I feel like there's a couple that contractors struggle with. I think communication is definitely one of them. You know, right? It's like you may be great at what you do,

but you're not picking up the phone, you know. Maybe you're a one-man band, so it's like, you know, you can't be doing that all at one time and doing the work. So I think, you know, following through with communication, I think you would mention too that you take a lot of pictures, you're showing people, you know, flashing details. And like, here's a pitfall.

Here's why you're having a leak here. And, you know, I think that those are like little things, but they end up being big things, especially when you get the overall customer service experience is like, hey, they call me back or they picked up the phone. I mean, they followed up. I mean, those are things that are rare. So I feel like if you're already doing those things,

then you do have probably a leg up with at least a, a handful of your competitors. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cool. The other thing I wanted to talk about was, you know, there's a lot of us who are trying to protect our margins. You know, how do you stay disciplined? Because like I kind of described our market up here and it's been slower.

And I know it's slower because I get calls from subs, right? I mean, that's kind of when you know is like when they're calling you don't. exactly like any more get oh okay so like when you're getting those on the weekly you're like oh okay all right so i know that the industry's down a little bit and like i said they're my competitors only response is like they they just kind of lower the price and become very much cash flow um how do you guys stay disciplined and protecting your margins are you guys like hey this is what the number we're going for we feel this is a fair win-win and we need to protect that at all costs or are you guys trying to like okay every once in a while

we're going to have to you know because there's homeowners that will talk you down though like just constant right yeah there's i think that there is um a level of wiggle room when it comes to it just to let people get that warm fuzzy but we're not lowering our prices uh you can't um right now we're not getting top dollar but we'll go back to what is you know because like I said there's some fluctuations right but for the most part we the price is exactly what it is um I think what helps us stay disciplined is my dad the old school he's still very he's 71 and he's tougher than I am the guy's still very much you know active on the roof and with the business and he's had that he's like I've been through six recessions we're good

just stay true you know what I mean like We might have to, unfortunately, we try our best to not let anybody go. We don't ever fire people like that for no reason. We can't, we don't, hey, we got protective margins, so we fire you. But what we do have to say is, hey, we're slower. We're going to only get you a few times this week. I'm sorry. So that does happen, unfortunately.

But for the most part, we do everything we can to, I try to keep my guys as comfortable as possible. My day through Friday, we try not to work weekends, normal business. hours, you know, take some vacation time. I think that that's important all around as well. When you have happy clients or happy customers or happy employees, then they are being referral worthy. So hopefully it gets to a point where, I mean, we've had a pretty good year. We've gone through the slow months and we're packed. I think that that's important to remember. having a team around you helps. You know, my chief of staff, Dana,

she's constantly looking at the numbers going, hey, pay attention, you've done well, you know, because you get down on yourself, you're like, oh, what do I do? She's like, I think that that experience of going through it has really helped guide me because I'm still very much young compared to my dad's experience. And I think that it's just that level has helped.

Yeah, I mean, that's a good point about the employees, or even subs treating them well, you know, paying them on time, you know, the little things, swag, you know, even, you know, taking time away from the job site, maybe taking them fish in, doing little things like that, I feel like definitely goes a long way. It creates loyalty with your team. And like you said, you create that referral-worthy employee, someone who's going to maybe be a little bit more patient with a homeowner or think twice. So it all matters.

It all adds up in the end, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, definitely. So when you're looking ahead in the next, let's say, five to 10 years, you've got two companies there. You got your home builders and your creative reframing. Where are you looking to go? What are your big goals?

Where you see yourself going the next few years? You know, we are in growth phase. I am originally from Sacramento. I know. So we are, you know, looking at expansion of the, our main focus is the roofing side. That's the, that's the legacy. We do home building, but I can see us doing, you know, a couple of custom homes a year, having a dedicated person per home, just kind of keeping that steady, consistent, quality, not trying to, just having that one-on-one experience. So I can see us adding a few more in that realm. But I think, I really enjoy the roofing aspect. I really enjoy the growth of it. I'd like to see more, you know, training opportunities for my guys.

I'd like to focus more on the next generation of people coming up through the ranks, you know. It's Cal Poly here that's got an amazing program for construction and management, project management. It's amazing here. You know, I'd like to focus on getting those guys some OJT and a nice training program. So I really think focusing on the next generation of not necessarily worried as much about growth of the company in the sense of,

oh, I got to have five locations and I got to do this. I'm not looking to do that. Right. More to put back into the communities that. And so we don't have to have these conversations as much. So that way people know that we're synonymous with that. Yeah. Great point.

Great point. So what is your guys' territory now? How do people find you guys? Give us the details of that. Yeah, currently we're the Central California coast. We basically Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispoe counties. Mainly from, you know, Morrow Bay up north along the coast, all the way down to Santa Barbara, Oxnard. We've gone, we're not quite, we go down to Oxnard, but we kind of, Santa Barbara is basically our zone.

Okay. Now, we've ventured out. My brother lives in San Diego. go. So I, obviously, if the job's big enough, we do travel as a pilot. I can get there pretty quick. So, nice. But we do also in Sacramento here and there. But once again, those are more for larger jobs, some specialty, somebody that needs some help. Absolutely. Our main, our main zone would be from Morrow Bay down to Santa Barbara area. Okay. Yeah, I got a cousin hatcher landscaping down there in Santa Barbara. So if you ever have any referral opportunities, I'll let them know that you guys

work in that area too. So it's all about referrals, right? That's it. Name of the game. Well, I appreciate you joining me today. Been a wealth of knowledge. And hopefully this is super helpful for folks, especially with this pricing situation. So thanks all for being here. No, thanks for having me. All right. Thanks. Thanks. Bye. All right, thanks again for joining me on another episode of In the Zone. We will see you guys next month. Thank you so. You've been listening to In The Zone and Construction Executives Live with Jeremy Owens.

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