Business Innovators Radio - Interview with Wayne Miller and Darren Grunberg with Hale & Associates Discussing Retirement Risks

Episode Date: February 11, 2026

Wayne Anthony Miller, II, is the Senior Managing Director and Executive Vice President of Hale & Associates, an independent nationwide financial services firm.Hale & Associates has over 40 years of industry leadership. Wayne specializes in helping retirees and pre-retirees protect their life savings, maximize income, and build durable multigenerational legacy plans. Wayne’s mission is to safeguard assets families have worked a lifetime to build and empower every client to retire with clarity, confidence, and long-term peace of mind.Darren Grunberg is a fiduciary advisor who helps retirees protect their savings and create dependable income for life. After years as a professional trader, he saw how quickly markets could rise or fall — and how fast a lifetime of savings could be affected. That experience led him to focus on helping people avoid unnecessary risk and build retirement plans that feel safe, steady, and easy to understand.Darren works with retirees across the country to protect their savings from market volatility, create guaranteed income, and reduce the uncertainty so many people face in retirement. He believes every retiree deserves clarity and confidence, not guesswork. His goal is simple: to help people enjoy a retirement they can trust.Learn More: www.haleandassociates.netWayne Anthony Miller, II – 0G30788 Vice President of Sales Hale & Associates, LLC CA DBA Hale and Associates Financial and Insurance Services, LLC – LIC #6013528 CA DBA Wayne Miller Insurance and Financial Services – LIC #6014459 PH. 317-677-7178 PH. 949-943-5266 FAX. [e-mail] Investment advisory services are offered through RLB Financial a registered investment adviser. Insurance products and services are offered through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.Darren Grunberg-CA LIC#4333498 Managing Director Hale & Associates, Inc. PH: [phone] PH: [phone] [e-mail] Entrepreneurs with Mike Saundershttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/influential-entrepreneurs-with-mike-saunders/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/interview-with-wayne-miller-and-darren-grunberg-with-hale-associates-discussing-retirement-risks

Welcome to influential entrepreneurs, bringing you interviews with elite business leaders and experts, sharing tips and strategies for elevating your business to the next level. Here's your host, Mike Saunders. Hello and welcome to this episode of Influential Entrepreneurs. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach. Today we have with us Wayne Miller and Darren Grunberg with Hale and Associates, and we'll be talking about the real risks facing today's. retirees. Wayne and Darren, welcome to the program. Thank you so much, Mike. We are so happy to be here.

You know, I think that a lot of time when you hear certain words, it makes you think about, you know, a topic, you know, hey, when you think of this, tell me what the first step is. First thought in your mind that comes out, well, when you hear the word risk, and then when you hear the word, what are the real risk? It makes you think, okay, well, there's some risks, but let's dive in below the surface and figure out what those real risks are. I want the full story. So before we dive into that. Give us a little background on Hale and Associates and what it was in your stories individually that got you into the financial services space. Thanks so much, Mike. You know, it's interesting. I have a very unique story. My background is in professional trading. So when you're a professional trader,

you know, you're not really thinking long term as far as like retirement. But as I got older, I started thinking about, well, I don't really have any kind of retirement. I have no pension. I do have a 401k, but the pension is the key thing. And let me go back for one second. My parents were New York City teachers for 75 years. So they had an incredible retirement benefit plan with their 403B and Social Security and their pension. So that was always in the back of my head that I knew one day I had to face the music and say, I need to somehow start funding kind of a pension. Because to me, what was most important, I'm 55 years old right now. But when I'm 60, 65, is that guaranteed lifetime income. So no matter what happens, whether it's good or whether it's bad, I know that I'll never run out of money. So around three or four years ago, I guess I must have done a search, Wayne and I keep arguing about this, but I must have done a search online. And I must have looked at self-funding pensions,

retirement. And lo and behold, I'm speaking to Wayne Miller on the phone. And through our conversations and especially education and his patience, I actually funded my retirement with fixed index annuities. And what's so important about that is because of Wayne, I developed such a passion. almost like a life's mission that I wanted to feed this information to everyone out there because no one knows about fixed index annuities. Yes, people know about fixed index annuities, but the most part, no one really knows about fixed index annuities. And I am so proud now to be Wayne's partner in one of our initiatives.

And I am so passionate about it. And I owe Wayne that. And not only is he an incredible partner, but he's an incredible friend as well. Thanks so much, Darren. How did you get into the industry? Thanks, Darren. And thanks for having us today, Mike. So our company, Hale and Associates, we've been serving families nationwide for more than 40 years, Mike.

We started back in 1983. So we're an independent financial services firm, which means we're not tied to one company, one product, or one agenda, Mike. So everything we do is designed to align with the client's best interest. Darren and I are both fiduciaries. That's the highest level of compliance, so to speak. We have to take client's best interest into heart when we make the recommendation. I started my career on the captive side of the business, working for the usual suspects, big traditional financial companies.

And by doing that, I quickly realized that model was cookie cutter, Mike. Everybody got the same retirement blueprint, same product lineup. there was almost no emphasis placed on safe money tools or lifetime income engineering. And over time, I became very frustrated watching retirees get pushed in the strategies that relied too heavily on market risk. That's what drove me to the independent channel. I wanted the freedom to build retirement plans around people, not products. Joining Hale and Associates years ago, it allowed me to combine that independence with a multi-generation legacy built by my father-in-law, Duke, who founded this firm with the mission of protecting families and building predictable retirement

income. Today, our focus is helping retirees create control mic, structure, and financial confidence at a time when they need it most. You know, I hear a recurring theme through those introductions, which is protection and safe, and that's huge, because when we're talking about protecting risk, you need that safety and that comfort, and that's a huge piece. So, Darren, what, would you say that today's retirement landscape is different than what prior generations faced? Mike, that's a great, great question. So today's retirees are facing a completely different retirement world than our parents and even our grandparents, because for previous generations, retirement was largely, I would say, predictable. People worked for one company. They weren't going.

They don't have 18401Ks. They earned a pension. They collected Social Security. and they live comfortably on that guaranteed income. I mean, the stock market certainly mattered, but not nearly as much as it does today. Now, today's modern retirees, we don't have that luxury. So traditional pensions have really mostly disappeared. So what's happening is that responsibility goes from the employer

to the employee to take care of their retirement. Lifespans have increased by 20 or 30, 30 years and again, their responsibility for creating lifetime income have shifted onto us. So instead of guaranteed paychecks, people now rely heavily on the 401k or a 403B, a thrift savings plan or even an IRA, which, as you know, it goes up and down with the market. And when it goes up and down with the market, so do your emotions. So on top of that, you have health care costs that are higher, inflation is higher. And again, interest rates certainly are very unpredictable.

So there's a lot of things going on that are happening today that the prior generations didn't have to worry about. Yeah, that pension is a big one. And I don't know statistically how many companies still offer a pension, but I know it is very, very low. And that's a great point. And it's almost like, well, if that is not a factor, is not a commonplace, how can we kind of simulate that. I think that's a really good point that you bring up there as well. Thank you so much. Yeah. You know, most, unfortunately, pensions are not commonplace anymore. They're common in the federal space, some state and local unions, some legacy corporate, the military.

But other than that, unfortunately, retirement, the sole responsibility falls on the retiree. And that's a tall order. Again, the market to hire right now. Everyone's excited looking at that piece of paper, that balance, oh my God, this is great. But what happens? Are you prepared if the market goes down 30 percent? That's really the question in retirement. Yeah. Yeah. So, Wayne, let's talk a little bit more about market risk. Why is risk especially dangerous right at retirement? I know that if you were to ask 100 people on the street, do you think market risk is important? 99.9 would say, of course it's important. But if you're in your 20s, maybe you can weather it a little bit more, but why is it especially important right at retirement?

Well, see, the thing is, Mike, the year is directly before and right after retirement. I like to call that the fragile decade. Okay, this is the period of time when retirees, investors are the most financially vulnerable. That's the most financially vulnerable period of a person's life in many cases. And when you're working and contributing to your retirement accounts, you can ride that volatility out. You have time, you have income, and those contributions are on your side. But once you retire, everything flips, Mike. You're no longer adding to those accounts.

You're withdrawing for them. And if the market happens to be in a decline during that transition period while you're drawing income, your portfolio experiences what we call sequence of returns risks. That's the silent killer of retirement plans. For example, if you suffer losses early in retirement and simultaneously take withdrawals out, you're removing shares from your portfolio at depressed prices. You're locking in losses. Okay, that creates a permanent mathematical setback.

And even if the market rebounds, your portfolio could potentially never recover because a few dollars are left to participate in that recovery. This is why market risk is especially dangerous at retirement. Not because the retiree is fragile, but because the math is. Protecting principle through that transition window, it's essential. It's not about just being conservative. It's about being strategic. You know, that's a really big point. And I know that we might dive into this in future conversations, but I know that if someone suffered a drop in their portfolio of let's just pick 20%.

Well, if the market goes back up 20% the next year, you weren't back to ground zero. So the math doesn't work out the same way. You've got to go up, you know, a lot of more percentage points, 30, 35% just to get back to ground zero. So I think that so many times people don't pick up on the fact that, oh, I'm almost to retirement age. I'm going to squeak out that last little bit of growth because I see the market's doing good. But boy, you really take it on the chin if you wait too close to retirement and there's any of that volatility. That's right, Mike. And especially it can be a lot worse once they're retired and they're taking out income because they're locking in those losses.

They have to make up a lot more. Yeah, 100%. So, Darren, what happens emotionally when retirees watch their savings go up or down? Like as an example, what we just mentioned, like, oh, when down, I hope it comes back up. But when it goes up, you feel kind of good. But then you're wondering in the back of your mind, when's it going back down? That's an emotional roller coaster, right? 100%.

Now, Mike, you just said the word hope. Hope is not a plan. And a lot of people in retirement use that word hope. Well, I hope it goes up. But hope is not a viable plan in retirement. And it's not only retirees. It's really everyone, but because we're talking about retirees, listen, you watch that account balance rise and fall like a yo-yo.

It becomes more than just a financial concern. It's really an emotional burden. And it could have some toll on your health as well. You know, when your savings is, you know, your source for grocery shopping and vacation, medical expenses, gifts for your grandkids, you know, those daily market swings, they start to feel a little personal. and a drop in the market doesn't really just feel like a temporary loss on paper. It almost feels like a threat to your lifestyle, your security, your dignity.

And, you know, instead of feeling relaxed, retirees sometimes in a bad market can feel guilty, anxious, fearful, remorseful, even when, you know, they've saved responsibly over the years. And over time, the stress does add up. the account balance, you know, stops feeling like a tool and starts looking like almost like a scoreboard where, okay, the Dow went up this or the S&P went up that. I feel elated today. And then the market goes down and all of a sudden your motions and in retirement, this is the worst thing to feel. You want to feel safe, secure, happy, not anxious.

Because as you get older, as Wayne just said, you have less time to make up that loss. and you want to again, I can't reiterate this enough, you want to change from growth to safety. That is so important just for not only for your mental well-being, for your health, for your family, for your conscience, everything, you put so much time into building that asset. It could take this long to lose it. And that's what we had Helen Associates, prod ourselves on, is making sure that, you know, we relay that message to, all our clients and educate them and make sure they know that it's time. When you're retired, you spend a lifetime growing. Now it's time to preserve. You know, you bring up a good point there, Darren, with all of the tentacles of who's depending on you. You know, if it was just one single

person and my portfolio needs to provide this retirement and it went down, you could go, okay, well, I'll figure something out. But when you've got spouse and children and grandchildren and all of those things, when you see that market volatility going up and down and the portfolio changing, boy, it's more than just yourself. So you bring up a really good point about that, all of the legacy and the responsibility. So, Wayne, what can retirees do to create kind of the control, even though we can't control what happens? We might be able to have some guardrails in place. What can they do to put some of that predictability into their retirement portfolio? And that's really a great question, Mike. And just elaborate more on Darren's previous response,

really the key shifting from accumulation mindset to an income engineering mindset. So while you're working, like we discussed before, accumulation is about growth. That growth depends on risk. When it comes to income planning and retirement, it's about reliability. It's making sure those bills are paid every month, regardless of whatever the market's doing. And retirees should really focus on building a foundation of guaranteed contractually backed income. That includes Social Security, a pension if they have one, or solutions like fixed annuities, fixed index annuities that can protect principal and provide a guaranteed lifetime income. And when retirees can visually see this mapped out year by year rather than hoping or relying on market performance, everything changes,

Mike. And that predictability, that leads to confidence for them. And confidence is the fact. foundation of a secure retirement. Yeah. That's huge. And talk a little bit about what that does with that confidence and the secure retirement because I find that when people are worried about things. And finances are a major worry in people's life. And I know that we don't have statistics right in front of us, but I would venture to say that the more worried you are about your finances, the more it's going to chip into your lifespan, literally. Because I think I've seen a research stat where the more peaceful you are about your retirement, the more confident you are.

And then that does kind of add years to your life. Is that kind of am I on track with that? You are. You know, I'm sorry, Wayne. Do you mind if I answer that question? Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Okay, great.

So that's a great question, Mike. Ali-ons, which is one of the world's largest insurance companies, just came out with a survey that 65, 25% of retirees. Now, get this, worry more about running out of money than they do about health and dying. So what does that tell you? That the concern of running out of money is so great. It can be so wearing on you. It really can have an effect on your longevity. Because, again, if you know your finances are secure and you have that guaranteed lifetime income that no matter what happens, you get that paycheck, you go to the mailbox every month and that check is there,

you have a feeling of confidence. You know that you can go out for dinner. You can go play around the golf. You can go buy whatever it is you want to do because you know that that check comes in month after month as long as you're alive. So, you know, financial well-being. health and mental well-being, they all go hand in hand. And unfortunately, there's such an emphasis on the stock market that it's really, unfortunately, it just boggles the mind. And that's Wayne and I,

what we try to do is we try to get the mindset from, as Wayne said, from growth to preservation. You know, and if we can do that and do it the right way, we can never ever eliminate risk, but you can mitigate it and lessen it as much as possible. We know that you can never eliminate many things in life, risk, taxes, all of that. But if we can have a plan for them and know that, hey, when risk comes up, we can, you know, consolidate it down into this strategy or we can confine it and make sure that it's not out of control. And that gives that confidence. It gives that peace of mind.

I think that is spectacular. So today's retirees face different, you know, challenges than what retirees did. two, three, four decades ago. And these are things that need to be taken into consideration well ahead of retirement age because you don't have that much runway to then recover from the risks that might flare up. So if someone is worried or wondering about how to make sure to contain their risk in retirement, what's the best way they can learn more and then also reach out and connect with you guys? The best way to get a hold of us is go to our website, which is www.

HAL, that's spelled HALE, then and Associates.net. HAL and Associates. Dot net. Thanks so much for having us, Mike. Yeah, Jim, thank you so much for come on. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you. Investment advisory services are offered through RLB Financial, a registered investment

in Pfizer. Insurance products and services are offered through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents. California insurance license number 0G 30788. You've been listening to Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders. To learn more about the resources mentioned on today's show or listen to past episodes, visit www.com.