Business Innovators Radio - Jana Cardona — The Leadership Mirror: Why Better Leadership Starts With Self-Awareness

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

The Leadership Mirror: Why Better Leadership Starts With Self-AwarenessGuest: Jana CardonaHost: Dr. Tamara PatzerShow: Thought Leaders ShowRecorded: August 26, 2026Leadership is often taught as a set of techniques for managing other people.But Jana Cardona begins somewhere else:What is it actually like to be on the other side of me?In this episode, Dr. Tamara Patzer talks with leadership development consultant, coach and author Jana Cardona about the central idea behind her book, The Leadership Mirror: Becoming the Person People Love to Work For and With.The conversation explores self-awareness, limiting beliefs, mentoring, CliftonStrengths, communication, empathy, trust and becoming a more people-centered leader.In This Episode– Why leadership starts with self-awareness– Looking honestly into the leadership mirror– Childhood experiences and limiting beliefs– How comparison affects confidence– The importance of mentors and “courage builders”– CliftonStrengths– DISC and other assessment tools– Different thinking and communication styles– Why leaders should not expect everyone to think like they do– Communicating expectations clearly– Empathy versus authority– Trust and people-centered leadership– Valuing someone even when you disagree– The 12 lessons of The Leadership MirrorAbout Jana CardonaJana Cardona is a leadership development consultant, certified coach, trainer, facilitator and author.She is founder of Designed 4 Success and works with individuals, teams and organizations to develop people-centered leaders.Connect With JanaDesigned 4 SuccessLinkedIn: Jana CardonaBook: The Leadership Mirror: Becoming the Person People Love to Work For and WithQuestions This Episode AnswersWhy does leadership begin with self-awareness?How do childhood beliefs affect adult leadership?How can assessments help leaders understand themselves?Why do team members interpret instructions differently?How can leaders communicate with people who think differently?What is people-centered leadership?How does empathy change leadership?How do leaders move from control toward trust?Key TakeawayBefore trying to change everyone else, ask:What is it like to be on the other side of me?Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/jana-cardona-the-leadership-mirror-why-better-leadership-starts-with-self-awareness

You are listening to The Thought Leaders Show with the world's cutting edge hottest innovators, influencers, and impact makers today. If you are looking for inspiration and motivation, listen in. Welcome to The Thought Leaders Show. Now, here's your host. Hi, everyone. This is Dr. Tamara Patser, and this is The Thought Leader Show. My guest today is

Jana Cardona and she is a leadership development consultant, certified coach, trainer, facilitator, and published author. Her book that just came out in February of this

year is the leadership mirror becoming the person people love to work for and with. It is a book built around the simple but demanding idea, the real leadership starts with self-awareness, and self-awareness starts with a hard look in the mirror. I think that that is such a true statement, and the more I interview people and they really get into the nitty-gritty of who they truly are, the more I believe that statement is 100% accurate.

So first of all, welcome. Thank you. And I want to tell everybody a little bit more about you. You founded Designed for Success, and you work with individuals, teams, organizations to build a people-first leadership. And I think that's important, especially in today, with AI being so much in the forefront that people, human beings really need to set back and command themselves as leaders so that they don't end up just giving away that humanness to a machine because it's easy. You know, everybody thinks, oh, AI can do it, but that's not the truth at all. It's a machine.

Right. Humans. So not only have you have all these certifications, you're an ICF certified. certified, your Gallup certified with Clifton Strengths, certified in Working Genius, EQI 2.0, and DISC, or D-I-S-C, and Dear to my heart, you're also Toastmaster International's highest honoree with the distinguished Toastmaster designation. I think everyone who's ever done Toastmasters can really appreciate what you learn there. You also

had 22 years at BNI as a B&I franchise owner and regional director and you built two different regions to more than 600 members and what's cool about that is you helped generate millions of dollars of referrals. I think

people don't realize that's a pretty big deal that you were able to do that. And of course can't leave out your husband. and 29 years in the faith and ministry where you also went to Australia for five years. So we're going to focus on what you're doing now. But you have that amazing background that if you look at people's histories and who they have become,

every step of the way, you know, leadership, faith, ministry, coaching, all of those sort of I mean, you put your heart and soul into becoming the person you are now. So I think that's wonderful. So what I want to do first is let's go back to that wonderful time in high school where your talent, as referenced in the yearbook, was shyness. And here you are. Now you're a distinguished toastmaster professional facility. So what happened? How did that little shy girl become Jana? The very first thing that happened was when I went to college, I went to a Christian college.

And I was looking at the seniors and the leaders from the different classes. And I was sitting back there going, Hannah, I would love to do what they do, but I'll never do that. But I think God had a hand in getting mentors for me because those, those same people that I admired were the ones that actually took me under their wing. It was like I was their little sister. I know that was providential because they really pushed me. They saw things in me. I didn't see.

They pushed me into things. And they were my first courage builders, really. And they just helped me to, by the end of my time in college, actually be in charge of the whole women's club program there. It just, it was a different me. But they really pushed and encouraged and can't say enough about mentors. Well, it's interesting because a lot of people, they do, they point back to one person or other people who, and you said it, they saw something in you that you might not have seen yourself.

and then they helped you to develop that. You said that for a long time, you believed you were the one with less to contribute. What does that mean? And what was there a moment when you realized that that was not a true statement at all? Yeah, when I was growing up, my mom had a kind of a belief that, when we did something instead of like yay that was so awesome really way to go she wanted to encourage us

to do better but the way she did it was to compare us like if you just did it like tamara over here she could you know follow her well what she didn't realize was that was just let me believe okay I'm never as good as somebody else somebody's always going to do it better I still to this day fight that, like limiting belief in me. I have to really work on it because it's ingrained in there from the time I was little. And what changed that was even in college, those people pushed me, but I always had that belief. And so every time I would do something, people would go, oh, you're so hard to compliment because you're always putting your own self down, right? and I just believe that.

But then I took the Clifton strengths. And I was so shocked that what I really wanted and what I saw in other people, what I wanted to be was what was in me. I didn't know it because I never had that opportunity to go, you do have this talent, you just haven't used it or haven't had an opportunity to use it. So that was like a real turning point for me. Even though I still battle the, you know, somebody else is going to do it better than you, I still know inside of me I have that talent.

I can develop it. I might not be as good as you, but I can do a good job because I have that talent. So it revolutionized the way I thought. Wow. And it also tells you about how important our parents are our mothers, our fathers, in what they tell us because they are the very first people who, help us to develop our self-esteem and our self-worth and always be compared. So the lesson, like for people listening is check yourself.

Are you comparing yourself to someone else, or are you putting that type of pressure on your children and what can you do differently so that your child doesn't grow up believing that they're always being compared to someone else? I think that's a really important point because, you know, obviously you're an adult now, and yet that is still there with you and you still have to like say, whoa, wait a minute. You are good enough or better than, you know, and it's all that within yourself. And I think that's an important point as we develop as humans. And obviously you've been in faith and ministry for a long time, and faith is your foundation in everything that you do.

What is it about your relationship with people and God? You said that people matter because they matter to God. How does that show up in our everyday practical? existence. It helps me to appreciate all the differences too. And Clifton Strings actually does it because I've learned everybody's wired differently. So you tend to grow up thinking, well, my way is, it's easy, right? So it should be the way you should do it because it's really easy.

But it's only easy for me. It's not for you. So even I know and I believe we were all created. and we were created uniquely. So I respect that, even though I don't always agree with the way somebody does something or the way they think or the way they act or whatever. But I can respect the fact that that's the way they're wired or that's the way they've been brought up or that's the way they've had this experience or that experience, that trauma or that. So I don't, I'm trying not to judge and condemn or label or whatever. I just look and go, okay, let me work with you, help you.

If you want my help, you know, if you don't, I honor that, right? You don't always want somebody's help. But I respect you. And I value you as a person. I don't have to agree with everything, but I still value you. You have worse. And that's what I see. I think that's really important.

You just said it. You don't have to agree, but you still value them as a person and they have worth. And I think that's important for everyone to just step back and think about that. You mentioned the Clifton strengths, and you also do the disc, which is, I know what it means, but I can't think of it. but the U-I-2.0 and working genius. And so those are all tools that you use. And like you said with your book, it all starts with self-awareness,

looking in the mirror before self-management. So when you work with somebody, do you, what does that look like? if you like like you have these different tools and I like until I met you I had not heard of Clifton's strengths I remember doing the disc formula and that was about it and there was another one but I don't see it on your Myers Myers Briggs yeah everybody yes yeah I did the disc and the Myers Briggs and I always thought about that I wasn't 100% sold on that they were 100% accurate about me because I thought, well, depends on my mood.

I would answer the question. So what do you, what do you, when you use these and what would, if I worked with you, what would our relationship start with? It would depend on if you were an individual I was working with or a company I was working with that overall I try to find out what it is you want to work on. What do you want to resolve? If you're an individual, do you have particular goals you want to meet, whatever? And then depending on like a company, what goals do they want, if they want team development

versus manager development versus employee development versus engagement, you know, there's so many different things. that helps me determine and then I can offer to them, here are some of the things that we could use. If they don't want to use any of them, I don't use any of them. If they want to work on something, and even though they might not take an assessment, for instance,

I can still weave all the principles in. They just don't have it, but I can still weave those in and they relate because those principles, especially in the things that I've done, the package that I've, I put together. It's all about our reflection of how we are as people and how we react to other people. And so I can weave that in and say, are you a person who really takes a long time to

make decisions? Or are you a quick thinker and you just want to get going? Well, they already know. They don't have to know the words that are associated or the position or whatever. So I can work around that if they need that. So that is kind of interesting because language, do you? find that the language of strengths what what does that mean exactly the language of strengths it's everybody who's taken this assessment talks about one thing that's different i just had a military wife um her husband's a commander and he took it she took it and she said of all the things we've taken this is the most positive reflecting back at what you're good at because that's what they work on it's not It also shows where you're weaker, but it doesn't mean you're bad, and it just means those aren't the strengths that you could use the most to get the most out of things.

And it's really true. It's very positive, which I love, because I like approaching things from a positive, here's what you can do. Here's how you can do this better. Here's how you can magnify it. Here's where you may get drained or you just may not enjoy this. And so this is the time to partner or collaborate or whatever. And so it's very much a positive tone. So I love that about it. And I feel like I like using that from that perspective.

I just like staying positive with the person because we hear so much negative. You know, it's like you can't do this or you're not good at that or whatever. You might not be, but you sure have things you are good at. So let's focus on those. and then let's figure out how you can either manage what you're not as good at partner with somebody or find a tool to use, you know, with it to help you out. And that way it stays more like, hey, I'm capable. So some of the different language, like a judgeer mindset, what is a judger mindset?

And that's part of another, it's called the Choice Method. Mary Annams in her book. And I combine that a lot with things. When you asked me, and I lost my train and thought on the language of strengths, it's that you understand each other. Right. And you know that if you're a fast thinker, I'm a slow thinker, I have that language instead of labeling you as really slow or, you know, incapable.

I'm going to say, you need more time to think. I get it. I'm a fast, you know, thinker and doer, and I figure it out along the way. You don't want to take risks. I respect that. Let's work on a plan. That's more the language instead of labeling. So when you're judging someone, you are basically going from a perspective of, I'm this way.

And I'm judging you because you're not. So I'm going to label you as slow or as irresponsible or, you know, what? whatever, those are the languages that I don't want us to use because they're negative. They put people down. They're not honoring each other. And so any language you used, even in working genius or whatever, those are all languages that people can use instead of labels, judging, insinuating, you know, implying motives, all that.

So this is kind of like, I mean, I think about. I'm going back to elementary school. But when you're in elementary school and, you know, when I went to school, they did not have special education classrooms. You were just all put together. So they might have the SR reading. They had the purple level, the red level, the green level, the blue level, the yellow level. And I might be reading at a red level and you're at a yellow level,

but I didn't know what that meant. And so there wasn't any judgment about other students in the class on if they were slow or fast. But I do get what you mean about the fast thinking versus slow thinking because like I am a pattern thinker, so I see all kinds of things that other people may not even grasp. and I know that I've had people frustrated with me because I'm already way ahead into the future of what I see for them

and they're still trying to figure out what the heck I'm talking about. So I understand what you're saying. So for somebody like me, how would you tell me to approach that so that I'm not misunderstood so much? Is that part of how you would help these team members or individuals about using their gifts, which is to be able to connect the dots, but not to overwhelm other people who maybe are more linear thinkers?

Right. You can bring it out in several ways. Part of my book brings out the self-awareness, which I know that you're going to address or have a dress. But when you're aware of who, you. are how you're wired. Like, if I know that I am like you, I can see in the future and I know I can see the patterns and I can see the strategy. And it's very clear to me. Someone who doesn't have that, like on, say for instance, there clifference, if they have it lower. Like for me and you, you can see

in the future, my futuristic is low. So when I had to do a business plan in a sales class for five years out. I as a business person in BNI struggled. I didn't want to tell anybody I couldn't do that adequately. I could put it on paper, but I wouldn't want to follow it. Like yours is well mapped out. You've got clear goals. I just couldn't think that far ahead. And when I began to look at my own makeup, I realized I deal with right now. I'm an executor. I get things done. But I don't like way out there. I rely on people like you to go, okay, here's some ideas for the future. And I appreciate that now, but I felt very insecure when I didn't understand that. And so it's like when you are aware of the fact of how you're wired, then you begin to appreciate

what you can do and appreciate somebody else and what they can do. And so that's part of that whole understanding yourself and realizing how you're made up. And when I work with teams and they start to realize that this person sees big picture. And they, I have a little thing I say, I tell them an exercise to do where they cut a paper and they fold it a certain way. And I just give them directions. And I say, you know, how many times have you had someone come to you and you're going, what the heck is this? I asked you to do this. And they're like, but this is it, right? And their vision of how you said it, because you're way out there in the future and how they see it's totally different. People relate to that

because how many times have we delivered or had delivered to us something we didn't, we didn't even think we asked for, right? But to them they asked for it and backing up and learning how to talk to somebody who can't see that far down or can't see that strategy, you start asking questions like, so what do you need, Janet, you know, am I making myself clear? How do you see what you want, what I want you to deliver? Right then before you send me off and I work on this project and do it completely not the way that. I've had that happen to me where somebody, they say, oh, I want a mastermind. And I go, okay. And I create the mastermind. And then I take it back and they're going, I want a mastermind, but I really wasn't thinking I was going to get it right in three days, you know, for the next year.

Because, I mean, I did the whole expanded picture. And then I'm like, what do you mean? You said you wanted a mastermind. That's right. So I can see that. you built these two BNI regions to over 600 members. And some people may not know what BNI is. So if you can just give a little teeny brief of what BNI groups are and what their purpose is, and then tell me what you learned about leadership by creating those massive BNI groups.

BNI stands for Business Network International. It's a global organization. It's been around, oh, gee, I don't even know how long it's been around, but a long time. And it started when networking was just becoming a thing way back. It was started by Ivan Meisner. And it was built around the idea that referrals help your business grow. And if you had trusted individuals who were recommending, you, referring you, whatever. Your business is already pretty much sold because people trust people.

And so what he did is he started to build these teams of people and they don't compete. Like we don't have two coaches unless they coach totally different things. Like you could coach health and wellness and I could coach leadership or something like that. We could coexist. Or you don't have two CPAs unless one hates taxes and one loves them and they can coexist. And those teams would come together and they meet weekly because weekly is accountability, weekly is getting to know you, weekly is developing relationships. And they would learn there's a whole system that he designed. The meeting is an hour and a half has officers.

And literally what you do is you go around the room and you do what they famously called a 60 second. And then as the groups grow, it got 30 seconds as long as you. And you stated what it is you're looking for that week. And so people in the room would know, okay, you're looking for to meet somebody or you're looking to have this organization open up to you. I might have that contact or I might work with somebody or singing the choir with somebody or whatever.

And I'm going to introduce you to them because I trust you as a person. And when you introduce the two of us, that connection already is somewhat built because I'm taking my relationship with you and transferring it over. So that's the foundation of that. And so we have regions as franchise owners. I had West Tennessee, North Mississippi. And I would just go for some people, like for instance in Tupelo, when I had Tupelo, I got a call. I didn't have anything in Mississippi, nothing. I had just obtained that region and I got a call that, uh, from somebody in Alabama whose people in a staffing company were in the BNI there and they

wanted to be an eye for their person in Tupelo. I said, I don't know anyone in Tupelo. Never even been there. Um, she's going to have to be very connected for me to work with her. Well, she was. She was a local. and so I worked with her and who her contacts were and we put together and sold the idea of a referral group where they could do business with each other and get to know each other. And that's kind of how the groups grow. Once they get in there, somebody else wants to have that seat. They can't because there's already a realtor there

who does commercial work. They can't join. So they're going to want another chapter. So that's how I started to expand the chapters. But it's a great organization. It's good for getting referrals, building relationships, and people keep their relationships even after they leave me and I. So when you, so you literally grew those 600, that sounds like quite a large number of people.

And the interesting part about that is the fact, like you said, they have to be different so that you're not overlapping on somebody's, whatever that may be. So you have some mastermind groups. So you have one that is more for Christian-centered business owners and then more for people-centered. Can you explain about the differences and what's the same about those two groups? The same would be that they're both business owners, both groups. They're more geared toward business owners.

In the one with the Christian business owners, I am a coach for a kingdom factor. They've been around for 30 plus years. and they've built a system, kind of like the BNI built a system, they've built a system to help business owners to help each other with their strategies. So unlike BNI, which is about referrals, this organization or these Kingdom Factor Masterminds, will bring together maximum of 12, so we don't get too many in a group.

And they would meet and they meet monthly for, four hours and they have a format they do and one of the main things they do is somebody's a feature for that month and their business is opened up they want to have maybe they're addressing an issue they want to grow or they are struggling with something they bring that to the group they work on it together so that person gets a lot of feedback from other business owners but with the understanding that they all have that Christian foundation with values, morals, codes of conduct that might be a little higher than just the average person might choose to have. So they're a support group for each other.

They help each other. They pray for each other. They're working together. But they work strictly on growing and developing their businesses. They can bring in family issues. If a family issue is critical, it's affecting them. Then they might choose to do. discuss that versus the other group is business owners, but it can also be more of leaders.

I've expanded it because it goes with my book. And so it can be managers, it can be CEOs, it can be leaders. Anybody who interfaces, it could be a nonprofit board, you name it, anybody who interfaces with other people. And the impact that they have as an individual is felt. in other words. So that's the leadership mirrors like that because I designed it to where what's it like to be on the other side of me in my leadership? Do am I harsh or am I understanding? And so the book is basically built to go through 12 lessons on how to be a more people-centered

leader. And those in that group go through the book as they're kind of like their workbook, you will. But I want it openly discuss. I don't want to teach them. I want them to read the book. And then we openly discuss it in what I see is people sometimes have a harder time with one principle than another. But somebody who's a leader on that team might go, hey, I have that, but this is what I did. And it helped. They help each other. So I'm the facilitator. I wrote the book, the materials there, but I'm facilitating it and they are helping each other to grow as leaders. So with that, when leaders shift into leading like with empathy and trust instead of the position and authority and it, you know, like, you know, our parents used to say, because I said so,

you know, when you would question that, because I said so. And you would be like going, well, what does that mean? What is the hardest part? of for a leader transitioning, let's say that they took a hard look at themselves and they go, whoa, I'm a, I'm not very nice. I'm too demanding. I don't respect other people's boundaries or lives and then they shift. What's the hardest thing for them when they actually start acting in a different way that's more appropriate as a leader? I think probably the hardest thing is they have an illusion that they're in control, right? And that they're the authority and they're the boss.

Like you say, I'm the boss. Do it my way. And empathy, it feels soft to them. It's too soft, too vulnerable, too whatever. And the difference between saying something and saying, hey, I'm the boss, do it my way, is you have control. When you're doing like empathy or trust, it's longer.

It's a longer process. And it's not as predictable. You're more vulnerable. And so that's a shaky ground for some people who really have always just controlled everything. And anything out of their control feels poorly. It doesn't feel comfortable. They can't get.

And then two, when they are, they have to balance because from the top down, somebody's demanding of them, right? And so to trust somebody down here and really look at them like, I believe you can do this and trust that you're going to do it, even though you might do it differently

than what I told you to do, you're still going to get it done. That's a whole lot of vulnerability that some people are very uncomfortable doing. And it is hard because you want to control, but at the same time, once you begin to realize that your way may not be the way that person can do it, and so they're going to struggle and they're not going to give you what you want anyway,

or in the time frame that you want it. But if you were to become aware of how they work and how you can do this project, tell me how you can do this and tell me that you can do it here, how are you going to get it done? And I understand you see that. I can count on you, but most people don't take that time to do that. And it's much more vulnerability. So what are the real benefits to a company or to a leader if they start to operate in this different way?

What would the company start to see? What would happen? Retention goes up, engagement goes up. It's been proven. Gallup does lots and lots of studies on the, this and how when you have a more people-focused leadership where you understand people's styles and you honor them for their ability to get things done, they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel valued, they'll work much better under those conditions than they will being forced.

And one of the best books I can ever recommend, he just passed away in March. but a gentleman named Bob Chapman, when I read his book called People Matter, or Everybody Matters, that's what it is, everybody matters. He was a true business person with the profit first and the, you know, the bottom line and all that. And then he changed due to several circumstances that he saw, one being a wedding that he went to and the aha moment that came to him.

He totally changed and revolutionized his company to be. people first. And the book talks about, that whole second half talks about how he put in place all of these different honorings of the people in his organization. So much so that when 2007, eight, nine, that bad period of time when everybody was laying people off, and he didn't. And everybody was like, you're foolish. You're going to lose. And he, so he went to his people and he said, Okay, I don't want to lay anybody off. So we need to figure out how we can still keep working, but I need to have you each take a month off.

What happened because he had built that respect and people felt honored, he had people that were giving their time because they could afford it to somebody who could not afford to miss a day of pay. And that whole thing, when it turned out, I'm not good at remembering numbers. You have to read this book to get, how much profit he made at the end of that down period when everybody was like failing and and and he didn't lay off one single person and his uh companies when you read the statistics

on them and everything were amazing he's a he's acquired over 175 companies and they have now whole leadership academy. It's based out of St. Louis. That just really teaches the principles. And people look for that because his success, you can't deny that it works. And that people are engaged, they feel honored, they feel respected. They'll work harder. So the people who've read your book, when they read your book, what are they, what's your

feedback then? The feedback is mostly, wow, I need to be nicer to people or whatever. And some of them see that there's a process involved. And just the thought of analyzing what's it like to be on the other side of me. That's a common thread I put through the book is because if we don't, we don't realize that sometimes perceptions, our motives are good, but the way somebody else perceives us because of the way they're wired, we have no clue that we just offended them or we're making them feel uncomfortable. But when you start to ask questions and you learn how not to make assumptions and you learn how to start with questions and curiosity, it changes your whole focus. And that's the part that most people have talked about is, wow, it really changed my focus

on how I approach people and how much I assume or how much I don't ask, I tell, things like that. I wrote it very simple. It's like just bullet point type of thing. It's not a hard read. You can read the whole thing in two hours. But what I want is for somebody to go, I want to apply this. And one guy told me, he says, there's a book you can put on your shelf and know. I've read something about that. Pull it off and find it easily. That's what I want to. I want to something. that was simple because we're so busy, you know, bullet points are really helpful these days. So I wanted to write it from that perspective so that people could pull it off the shelf and refer back to it. What do I need to say here or what do I need to do here?

And that's going to reference it. So your book is more of something you can apply and remember and it's a tool. And then, of course, you said that your mastermind uses the book. So, and I take it, you said it has, is it 12 principles? Well. Okay. So it's like a year. Or if you were to do one principle of month.

Yeah, it depends on how you do it. But it's made to where you read it and then you go apply it. And then you write your reflections. It's a lot of reflection. How did I do? How did I act? What did my week look like? And my vision.

I have different people that want different things, but some people want to do it and read it one week and then discuss it the next and then maybe apply it and then the next one. So I've had one guy tell me he'd like to do it with his group over eight weeks, so you have to adapt. Or somebody else said, no, it takes longer. You know, it depends.

It's flexible. Yeah, flexibility, which I think that makes it really nice. So for someone listening now and they want to know how to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that? My email is my name, J-A-N-A-A-A- at Designed-Dash or the number 4-Success.com. I wish it was easier, but that was the only dot-com I could get. Yeah, sometimes it is very much. difficult. Or they can use my name,

jana. dot Cardona at Gmail. That's easy for them. Okay, janet. dot Cardona at Gmail. And the book is the leadership mirror

becoming the person people love to work for and with. And I love that because I think that's so important now, even more than it was

ever before because there's so much disruption in the world. So where can people find the leadership mirror? It's on Amazon. There's a couple leadership mirrors. I found that after I created it.

But it has a little mirrors on it with people's faces in them. And it's that whole title becoming the person people to work for them. Okay. Along with that. But it's on Amazon. Okay. So before I let you go, Is there anything I forgot to ask you that I should have?

No, you had some great questions. Thanks. I appreciate the time. Well, Jenna, I'm glad that I met you and I'll invite you back another time and we can dig deeper into some of this because like I said, the different strengths and all of those, I think there's a lot of people they've heard of them or not heard of them. and maybe we can dig a little bit deeper into the value of some of these things. But for now, I really think that if they just go get the leadership mirror becoming the person people love to work for and reach out to you, I think they can really get some true value out of listening to the show this week.

So, first of all, thank you so much. Oh, you're so welcome. I'd love to come back sometime because you're really great to work with. So thank you so much for the opportunity. Oh, thank you. You've been listening to the Thought Leaders Show. To get all past shows and to get all future shows, go to Thoughtleadershow.com.