Business Innovators Radio - Jason Woodruff – Founder, CEO & Editor in Chief of The Pour Over

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Jason Woodruff founded The Pour Over as a fun side project while pursuing his MBA. Jason is now the full-time CEO & Editor in Chief of TPO, a politically neutral, Christ-centered newsletter that recently surpassed 500,000 subscribers. Tune in as Jason shares his perspective on how the news should be consumed and the relationship he believes people should have with today’s biggest stories.Subscribe to TPO:https://www.thepourover.org/There’s an old adage that says you should pay your fair share of taxes but not a penny more. We believe that to be true.We help business owners and high-income earners realize their savings by deploying time-tested tax strategies with decades of case law to back it up.Each strategy must pass through our sift of being legal, moral, and ethical.Get your complementary analysis to see how much you overpay on an annual basis. Click the link below to schedule your complimentary analysis.Learn More: https://www.stratnavinc.com/Schedule Call: https://www.navigatesni.com/NAVIGATEhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/navigateSource: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/jason-woodruff-founder-ceo-editor-in-chief-of-the-pour-over

Hey, really our vision is for when people consume the news for the output to be the fruit of the spirit, you know, for it to be like, man, there's love and joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, which is the opposite of what happens now. Welcome to the Navigate podcast. Brought to you by Strategic Navigators, where we save entrepreneurs 40 to 60% on their income taxes. We're your host, Adam Ders. And I'm Mitch Salanti. Today we have Iowa's finest founder, CEO and editor-in-chief of the porover, Jason Woodruff. Jason, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for being on. And before we ask, you know, who you are, I want to introduce some of the ways that you and I are affiliated. So people who are listening, Jason's dad, Mike Woodruff, is the senior pastor of the church that we both grew up going to, Christchurch like Forest.

and Jason, you probably don't remember this, but you were my lifeguard instructor when you were probably in college and I was in high school. I was probably struggling more than anyone else in the pool. So I remember you teaching me there too. Huh, I did not remember that. Yeah, I taught a fair bit of people to be lifeguards. That's fun. Yeah, Lake Bluff Pool. Great times.

That's right. So let's start off by just hearing a little bit about yourself, where you're from, how you grew up, and where you're at now. Yeah. So I grew up in Lake Bluff and swam and lifeguarded and then came to the University of Iowa. For a long time, I thought I would be a pastor following my dad's footsteps, decided to go and get my MBA instead of go to seminary and worked in corporate America for a couple years. But while I was in grad school and then in corporate America, I was, had this kind of personal exercise. which is really how it started, which is now the pour over. And so it was really just kind of born out of a frustration with the news and feeling like I didn't have a spiritually healthy relationship with the news. I really liked the news. I liked being aware of what was going on, reading things, doing all this stuff.

But I could just see how it was shaping me and felt like, man, this is, I like, am overly passionate about things that I just probably shouldn't care about. Or like, man, why, why am I, like, defending this thing or talking about this thing with the same level of passion that I have for, like, my faith, you know? And I spend a lot more time reading the news than I do my Bible. And just saying, man, like, I need to kind of figure this out for myself. And so I had been saying this and thinking about it for a little while and went out to dinner. with Nate Wells, who you probably also remember.

And we were talking about it. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to do it. I'm going to summarize the week's news, biggest news of the day, and try to kind of remove political bias and insert a bias towards Christ. And I'm going to email it to you. And like, hold me accountable. I'm going to send this.

I'm going to do this every Friday, just as a personal exercise. And so that was the start of the poor. Rover and that was in April of 2018 and had some friends like I was like after a couple I was like, hey, I'm going to share this with some more people. And a few friends were like, hey, I'd like to help out. And this would be good for me too. And so they started writing as well. And after a year, there were like three of us. And we were sending an email weekly to like 250 people. There was there was no money involved. I don't know when we got a. our first sponsor, but we did always run it like a, like a business. And so we started getting

sponsors, but really that was because it was fun for me to operate a little business. It's not like, we weren't taking any money out. And like, you know, we were selling, oh, man, we just sold the sponsorship for like 30 bucks, you know, and we made 30 bucks this week. So it's not, it's not exactly, it wasn't a lucrative deal for, for a while. But then, has grown from there. At some point, we looked and we're like, man, this is, this is growing exponentially. The numbers are just really small. And what if we tried? Like, what if we tried to grow? What if we tried to get sponsors? What if we, you know, put some effort into it. And yeah, so it was a long road. But very fun. And now it's what I do full time. There's Nate actually just came

full time over the summer. He left like a very real good job in high finance and because we could offer less money but money and a lot more flexibility. And he has three kids. So he was excited about that. And there's like 10, 10 or 12 people helping out in total. Three of us are full time. And then there's another 10 who are between five and 20 hours a week. So that's the pour over. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. It's awesome to hear that three of you are full time now because I listen to another

podcast you were on. And at that time, I don't remember when this was recorded, but I think you were the only one who was full time back when it was recorded. It was, so I went full time in July of 2021. And the deal was, we, we were moving, Hannah and I were moving back from Denver and we knew that. And neither of us really liked our jobs out there. So I was like, hey, if I'm already leaving my job, let me try doing the pour over full time for six months.

And, you know, was she working when you were doing that? Like, did you have that other income to fall back on? Yeah. And we hadn't taken. It was a little weird because no one had been paid at all from the poor over before July, 2021, but we were making reasonable money. Like, I think at the time, I feel like we were making, I don't know, $10 or $15,000 a month from sponsorships.

Like, it was a, we had grown it to be a reasonably sized audience and we're consistently filling ads. And, but there was this, it's like, hey, as soon as I go full time and start taking a paycheck, everyone else needs to be paid too. Like, I can't be the only one paid. And so we went from like zero to six people getting paid. And all of them were more part-time. And no one was paid a fair wage.

But it's like, hey, I got six months to kind of like to grow this thing. And Hannah was like, hey, very, very reasonably. And this was a great like goal and expectation was you have six months and you're either than paying yourself correctly or you're looking for another job. But like, hey, you know, we can we can take six months. months and do this and kind of grew into it. And, um, and then Kathleen came full time, January of this year, 23. Okay. And then Nate came full time in like June. Um, and so yeah, it's been, it's been good. What are Kathleen and Nate's rules? Yeah. So I am the CEO and

editor-in-chief, but kind of lean more editor-in-chief than CEO. So the goal is for me to split my time, like 70-30 on content as opposed to the business and really have my business time be more strategy and less kind of like execution. So Kathleen is also full-time on content. She runs our writing team and social media and stuff like that. And then Nate is our head of business. So I some strategy, but mostly execution of saying like, hey, we need to grow and we need to, we need to grow our list size and we need to sell ads and then all the miscellaneous stuff that goes along with having a business. All that kind of rolls up to him. Okay. Speaking of growing your list size, congrats on hitting half a million subscribers.

I know. Was that this week? It was Saturday. Yeah, it was fun. I was flying back from Denver from a wedding and we knew that it would happen soon and when when we landed and got cell coverage um i i like refreshed it and saw exactly 500 000 so took a screenshot and was able to share it with the team but it's it's rare like the fact that have a screenshot of exactly you know five and then five zeros is it's fun you know and so that happens Saturday and yeah we're celebrating all week giving away a bunch of stuff and um it's a fun milestone that's awesome that's awesome congratulations. We were talking about the sponsorships and Jason, I don't want to mention the name, but Adam and I were, because it's a competitor, but Adam and I were discussing that you had

one of your sponsors as, or sorry, one of your competitors was your sponsor for one of your newsletters. If you want to mention what you can. And I remember reading that newsletter, Adam and I were talking about this. And I was like, wow. Wow, that's like, that's, I'm assuming, again, I don't, I don't want to say the name if you don't, if you don't want to, like, give free advertising to your competitor. But looking at it from our angle, too, it's like, okay, so we wouldn't advertise another CPA, no matter if they're any, any part of the country, we wouldn't advertise another like CPA or tax planning services company. So I'm like, yeah. Interesting. Okay.

Let's just learn about that. Yeah. So it's 1440 is, is the, the newsletter. I assume that's the one you're thinking of. And they, so they're not faith-based. And they're five times a week. And they do a really good job. And so, like, part of what, part of what we think of with the pourover is like, hey, our goal, our mission is to help, is to help people have a spiritually healthy relationship with the news.

And so to say, we want to keep you informed about what's going on, but focused on Christ and really see the kind of like the biggest detriment to a healthy relationship with the news is just way over consuming and way over consuming politically motivated news, which can just kind of align your heart towards a political party, neither of which is inherently, even. evil nor perfect, you know. And to say like, we just, so 1440 does a great job. They are, we have, we have not advertised for

a couple other newsletters that are a little bit more right in our niche and, frankly, are quite clearly inspired by the pour over. And they're smaller and younger and kind of, look and feel a lot like us.

And it's like, you know, that that feels a little bit too on the nose. Also, they do things a little differently and, um, and expand, expand on the Christian perspectives, which that's one of the things that's hard. Um, so we, we summarize the news and then we pair it with a brief Christian perspective. And all those Christian perspectives are the vast majority of them are, pre-written and they hit on one of four kind of foundational things that we see as Christians struggling with the news. So like one of them is keeping an eternal perspective. But right now, I don't know when this is going to be published. Right now, like the news is Taylor Swift

is going to football games. Travis Kelsey's football games and like the world is exploding. It was the most watched TV program since the Super Bowl. And it's like, hey, this is the news. We covered it. Also, our perspective is, you know, maybe we don't need to care so much about this. You know, like maybe in light of eternity, this isn't as important as it feels right now. And my wife might disagree. Yes.

Our readers might disagree. But to say like, hey, let's just try to remain focused. It's not bad to be aware of what's going on or to care. We just need to care an appropriate amount. And so, like, that's one of the foundational things that we put. A lot of other Christian newsletters or news sources will expand much more and say, like, they write about things, tend to write about things that are a little bit older, less timely, and, like, more robust theology and wisdom and commentary. They turn into a devotion. Yes.

And that can be a great thing. And obviously that's a good thing to exist, but it's not what we do. And it's hard for us to, because we don't do that, it's hard for us to promote a small organization that's trying to do that because we don't know what they're going to say. You know, like, what is your advice? Like, are you going to reach a conclusion on who to vote for? or are you going to reach a conclusion on like spiritually, this is the only acceptable response to this type of event where we're trying to not do that and say, keep you informed and point you towards Christ.

And we want those conversations and stuff to be had, but we're not trying to endorse a position. And so that's what we're more concerned about promoting is like spiritual advice or something that we may or may not agree with. 1440, which is just summarizing the news, is like, hey, man, this is going to help people. And so, and they paid us. They paid fairly well. And so it's just kind of striking a balance. There's another piece of like, we, we really think, like, hey, we just need to beat these people in the marketplace and, like, provide a more valuable service. And, and like with 1440, it is distinct enough that we think people could read both and find value in both.

And if they subscribe and get more value over there and unsubscribe from us, good on them, you know. And there's obviously there's a line to that of like, hey, we don't, we don't go promote these other small people that we think are directly kind of trying to do what the pour over is doing. But we also aren't attacking them and like I've met with them and talked with them and giving them advice on how to do things. Like if they're if they're furthering our mission and supporting the kingdom, that's good. It just feels a little too incongruent for us to promote them. Okay. Yeah, of course.

When you were getting your MBA, you know, first of all, what did you think you were going to do while you were working on the pour over? What was your actual ultimate goal? Were you always entrepreneurial? Yeah, I was always fairly entrepreneurial. My undergrad was actually in entrepreneurial management, which I don't recommend because there's nothing quite like trying to get a job with a degree that says that you're going to leave. But it's always been something a little interesting to me.

Part of what I really enjoy is leadership and strategy stuff. So that was part of what was hard is moving into corporate America. America, especially I worked at DISH. And DISH, I'm very grateful for my time there. And one of the things they do really well is promote from within. And which is cool. You have people that like started as call center agents and are now like executives because they've just proven themselves over and over. And so like that's cool to see. Yeah, one of our executive vice presidents who was making like multiple millions of dollars a year, went to a community college and had worked at DISH for like 25 years. But the flip side of that is at least at DISH, my path towards

leadership and strategy was work hard for 20 years, you know? And it's like, man, that's kind of a long grind before I feel like I'm going to really be kind of in my wheelhouse. And so that was part of what I loved about the pourover is like, I could come up with something. tested and try it and do it, you know, and say, no, I think this is a better direction and just go do it, as opposed to, hey, I think this is a better direction and be like pat on the head appropriately, because who am I to go in and tell them how to how to do this? So I wanted to do business. I wanted to do workplace ministry. That's part of, like, I, a lot of people early on wanted the pour over to be a nonprofit and recommended it be a nonprofit. And it's like, hey,

you could raise money and do whatever. And I just, I didn't like that because the business model works, you know, like there are, we promote nonprofits where it's like, hey, we're going to go serve these people that need something that they cannot afford.

And so someone else has to do this. Whereas like, no, this we can just compete in the marketplace and be missional and do things. But I don't need, I don't need people to just give money. we're not looking for an individual to write a $10,000 check or $100,000 check so we can do the news. We get those checks from sponsors that we're delivering real value to.

And so I like the blend of the business and the leadership and the strategy and trying to create a workplace that glorifies God and furthers the kingdom. and like all that is just tons of fun. Like I love the idea of Christian businesses and Christians working in the marketplace and glorifying God and doing excellent work. Like it bugs me to no end that it took Google treating their employees the way they wanted to be treated to see that it worked out.

And then now everyone's like, oh yeah, like we have a great place to work and culture and all this other stuff. It's like, where have the Christian leaders been? And where have the Christian business owner's been for the last 2,000 years to figure out that like caring for employees and treating them really well is good for business? And like, even if it isn't good for business, do it anyway, you know, like that's part of the mission of running a business. And but now it's super cool because Google did it. And they weren't even trying to follow biblical principles. They were, they were just following them without knowing they were following them.

And it works. Yeah, it sounds like you're accomplishing that pretty well. I went off, you asked what I wanted to do while I was getting my MBA. So that was, that's what I wanted to do and I found it in the pour over. I didn't know exactly where I would land or what the goal was. Gotcha. What impact when you started the power over did you see yourself having? How was, and how was that changed?

Like impact on like readers. Yeah. What would you, what value did? Did you think you're providing? Do you think you're providing the same value? And I'm curious, how do you think that one that will look going forward? And part of what I want to get to eventually, I'll let you answer that first. But I want to talk about some of the partnerships that you've done with nonprofits. I've seen something with like children in Somalia, I think. And some of those things. Yeah, it was, it really was, I think the initial thought was largely around

kind of like putting politics in its correct place. And just the news, so much of the news covers political things and saying like that's where I felt like that was the problem I was trying to solve for myself is like, hey, I can I can care and be invested in politics. It just needs to be clearly far second to my relationship with Christ, you know. and I need to be willing to criticize my political party. If I can't, then I'm inherently saying, I think this party's perfect or the only hope. And it's like, no, I believe that those statements are reserved for Christ. But that doesn't kind of match my actions and thoughts. So that was part of the motivation.

And like I said, it really was kind of. a personal exercise to say, I want to solve this for myself. I think we have, it has shifted slightly and more broadly to say we want to help people have a spiritually healthy or just a healthy relationship with the news. And politics is a big part of that. But there's also just, the news in general can be depressing. It can be scary. It can be all sorts of, it can have an outsized impact on people's life. And to say, how do we introduce the hope and joy of the gospel into these same news events? Like, we're not going to say, oh, man, if it's depressing or hard, we're not going to write about it. We're going to write about the same things, but also include

the hope and joy that is found in Christ and this peace that surpasses understanding. It's like, I don't understand how I can have peace when the kind of... country is divided and there are all natural disasters and wars and all the stuff like peace of heart and mind does not make sense but it is true and still found in Christ even in like in spite of these things and through these things you know because of what what God's doing and so that's part of how the mission has shifted a little bit or or kind of what we hope to do and it's also just shifted I mean from thinking hey this will be good for me and maybe a couple friends to, I mean, God's just done really cool things. And like, we're, we're like a massive

Christian news organization now, you know, like there, there aren't that many. The competition is not super stiff. And we're completely dwarfed by major news orgs. But like, when you, when you start to compare our size and the number of people that, that open a newsletter or listened to a podcast to other Christian news organizations, it's like, man, we, we, can we can really make an impact on on the church specifically in America to to hopefully soften hearts and and point people to Christ through this. Yeah, that's really cool. Have you gotten pushed back from either side, whether it be people that are more conservative or more liberal and been like, hey, this is a story about Trump,

like this needs to be condemned or like you know Biden did this like this is obviously wrong like have you gotten that and been like all the time we're stating the facts this is what we're doing the the flip side of us having 500,000 emails is 500,000 people have our email and um they they can hit reply and a very small percentage do but yeah we we get um we get pushback all the time And some of it is, some of it is like, hey, we don't like this thing that is just core to the pour over. You know, it's like, why aren't you talking about this thing that no one's heard of but is spiritually significant? And it's like, yeah, the reason we aren't writing about that is because we write about the most visible news of the day. Like, we want to help you think spiritual, like, think through and process Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey and Trump and Biden and the economy and all these things that are, like,

like and not missions and things that are more inherently spiritually valuable and impactful. And it's because we think other organizations are doing that and no one was doing kind of what we're doing in the way that we're doing it. And so we we love that those things exist. But if you want us to write about those things, it's just kind of like, hey, yeah, sorry you didn't understand who we are. And then there are people that have valid criticism, like, because we mess up. And it's like, hey, you said this and this isn't true. Or you framed it this way. And you're like that that's reasonably interpreted this way.

And it's like, yeah. And we apologize. We tend to send them a sticker. And if it was materially wrong, we'll print a correction. But and then there are people that say we're wrong and we don't think that we're wrong. You know, or they're angry. And it's like, hey, I get that you're angry. And what's really interesting is, hey, it's one thing to say,

you said this or the poor over said this and this is incorrect. It is another thing entirely, and it's a weird experience that you just have to get over for them to tell you what your motivations were, you know, to be like, you are clearly trying to say and do this when we aren't. And it's like, for a while that really bothered me. And it was like, oh, man, we must have missed them. It's like, no, they, I know how much time we spend and put in. And it's like, oh, man, we must have missed them. It's like, no, they, they, I know how much time we spend and put in to being politically neutral. Not because we think that that political neutrality or being center is always spiritually correct. It's often not.

But to say, hey, we're a news organization. And so we're trying to present the facts and point you to Christ, you know, and say like, it breeds compassion for you to understand better the opposing side, even if that side is wrong, you know? Like, after the country believes it and we're called to love them. And if you think they're raving lunatics that are motivated by evil, hard to love and have compassion for him. So we're going to explain that and help you understand it. Then to be like, man, you're trying to or like you're clearly bought and paid for by these people. And it's like, no, I am I am 100% confident that like we own the pour over, it's independently controlled. We're spending tons of time and energy to try to be politically fair.

And so, hey, we might have missed the mark, but we absolutely were not trying to push a liberal agenda or push a conservative agenda. Like, we were trying to present the facts and we may have missed the mark. But yeah, and we definitely get that feedback. Right. Right. So to put what the pour over does in a very quick nutshell, you highlight the most important stuff. of today, just a snippet. And then you give a biblical perspective of maybe trying not to get people caught up in the drama of it, right?

Think of an eternal perspective, which is great. You don't turn it into a devotional. It's just a quick, hey, this is why as a Christian perspective, we should believe this. And you do that three or four days a week. So you're not like just overloading people's emails. It's just clear, concise. And you have a podcast that does all that too. Is there anything that I'm missing?

No, we're three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. That's intentional as well. We've talked about going five times a week. But ultimately we think, you know, like, hey, there's a, what speaks louder or loudest is us saying, hey, we're combating the 24-hour news cycle by only sending three times a week. And yeah, we could make more money. We could whatever by going five times a week. but this is enough deep breaths you'll be aware of everything big going on i've heard you talk about at certain points like oh we're thinking about five times a week that's what a lot of other

newsletters do is there an option maybe to do like something smaller like oh maybe we'll do one story on tuesday and thursday or is there anything different like that or right now is it just three times a week like you said let's stick to what we've always done yeah we've we've We've talked and gone back and forth a lot. The argument four or five times a week or more is to say we're trying to, while other news organizations are often delayed, you know, because they're taking time to pray and be wise. And we're like not because we're just writing about something that just happened and saying, hey, we can.

So the argument for five times a week was we could better meet people and help them hear stories from a politically neutral Christ's first way the first time they hear it and hopefully shape their heart a little bit more that way or prevent them from it being shaped by other news sources. But we have, we've kind of landed on, yeah, we just really think the most healthy appropriate relationship with the news is one where you just consume less news. And so, And you think about like what would the news have been, what was news like when Jesus was alive? And it looks nothing like what we have today. I mean, like you may be here what's going on in Rome or some neighboring town days or weeks after it happens.

Otherwise, like news is what is happening in people's lives that you know. Like, it's actionable. It's relevant. It's. And now local news. is dying and dead in some places. And you don't read local news because it can't compete with the drama and intrigue of the most exciting biggest thing happening anywhere on the planet.

And now, like with Twitter and other stuff, like we can be aware of huge news happening on the other side of the world to people that will never know and have no ability to impact immediately. And so that's what that's what news is. And this is a relatively recent shift. I mean, 50 years ago, it's like the news, if you were a news junkie, it's because you read two newspapers. There wasn't more than that to consume. And then you had the like, oh, you could watch the news.

It was an hour with Walter Cronkite. And then the TV like shut off and there wasn't anything on. And so like you could watch the news and be aware of what was going on. So we don't have like generational knowledge of how to handle the news as we have it today. There's no there's no grandma's wisdom, you know, on on how to like you cannot. It is laughable to think that you could consume all the news produced. Completely everyone is like, but that was something you could do up until like people are alive that that. If they were news junkies, they could consume all the news produced.

So it's a new shift. And we just don't know how to do it. And so part of what we're saying is we've swung too far. And the healthy relationship with the news is just less. You know, like it just doesn't matter. And it was never such a profitable business avenue like it was today either. And with that, I want to hear a little bit from you, too, of explain how does a newsletter make money. And I want to hear at what point did you go full time? How many subscribers did you have?

Oh, that's a good question. I should look it up. I want to say it was around 100,000 subscribers. Probably a little under that. And we make money by and large, like 90% of our revenue comes from advertisers. So we're premium ad space. We have one, what we call native ad in the middle of the newsletter and then two TPO, the pour over picks of like things that we're using and trying. And those three things are sponsored. Mark is sponsored. That's how we pay for the newsletter. You can choose to pay.

So it's not a donation. It's choosing to pay. There's that amounts that you're allowed to pay. You can't just send us a $20 check. And that is, yeah, you're choosing to pay for what you could get for free. And that's about 5 to 10% of our revenue depending on, depending on, depending. on the month. So that's how we make money. Okay. And are you as you grow, are you able to, I'm assuming, charge more for that ad space? Is that something that's shifting for you guys as

as you grow? Because I feel like just the other day, you guys were at a quarter million. I'm a subscriber. I got your, I got the Monday edition yesterday. Today's Tuesday, October 3rd. I got it yesterday. I was like, oh my gosh, half a million. Good for these guys. Yeah. Yeah. It's, we can definitely charge more. it's interesting on absolute terms. It's always a balance of what the rate is and what the quality, like, what are subscribers doing? I mean, ultimately, what we're selling is eyeballs and clicks. You know, if you just want brand advertising, super easy.

We can get people to see your logo. Getting people to actually convert and buy is much more dependent on the product and right. All sorts of stuff. And so it's always kind of. like a moving target and their seasonality like right now October is just generally kind of a slow month and it has been every year because people are like planning their their holiday spends and so they're kind of pulling back to figure out like to save money for spending around the holidays

and so it's always kind of a moving target but yeah generally I mean the more the more eyeballs we deliver the more we're able to charge. And I'm curious going back a little bit. When you went full time, was there ever a point that you're like, I don't know if this is going to work. Was it always building up? And you're like, okay, this is, this is going to work out. You know, it was really interesting.

I assumed the hardest part would be finding advertisers and growing the newsletter would be hard. like it's like how many people are actually out there that want to read this you know and the reverse is kind of as generally speaking again like there's there's ebbs and flows but generally we have not feel very blessed we've been able to sell ads and there have been times when it's like man we are just not we need to figure out how to do this growth thing which was the opposite of what I expected when I went full time. I could not talk about how grateful. I cannot say how grateful I am that that was the problem, that there was money and sometimes it was hard to deploy it effectively as opposed to the

other way around. And I think a big part of that is that we just grew slowly early on. And yep, we had almost all our advertisers reach out to us. We just try to over deliver on value so they stick around. And that is the opposite of how most people in this space work and grow, which is they raise money or they borrow money and they figure out the growth thing and they explode and they, you know, they just get to 50,000 subscribers or and then they can't monetize it. And or or it's just very slow. And it sounds really stressful. And I'm glad that. that is not the journey that we have been on. That's not the journey you've been on,

but you guys have been on a great journey. You've grown tremendously in the past. It's been started in 2018, so the past five years now, a matter of time until you guys hit a million. What do you want the pour over to look like? I'll say that for you. Yeah, thank you.

What do you want the pour over to look like in the future down the road? What do you want this thing to be like, you know, in five, ten years? Yeah. How do you see it changing, if at all? Yeah, I, right now, like, what's really exciting for me to think about is the poor over being an organization that helps people with the news and have a healthy relationship with the news. And actually producing the news is just one of the ways that we do that. but saying, hey, really our vision is for when people consume the news for the output to be the fruit of the spirit, you know, for it to be like, man, there's love and joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, which is the opposite of what happens now. People read the news and they react with anger and harshness and anxiety and depression and to say like, how, can we help people whether or not they're consuming the news from the pourover or CNN or Fox or

TikTok or whatever. It's like, hey, we've helped them build a solid foundation so that when this comes, when news comes at them, they're able to process it and and categorize it and respond to it in a healthy way. And it's like, hey, this news came in, but I am, I am the filter. and the Holy Spirit is the filter. And it's not like, I don't need to get it from a certain source to have hope and peace. I have hope and peace and I can handle the news.

And a big part of that is pointing people to Jesus because the fruit of the spirit comes from the spirit, not the pour over. But part of it also is just like training people how to consume the news, you know? And hey, here are common pitfalls and here are things that like, I mean, it's a learned skill. that no one has learned and we're still trying to learn it and figure out how to teach it. But that would be kind of the goal of, hey, in five to 10 years, the pourover has shifted how news is consumed in the sense that people are stronger and know how to handle the news in a better way and have a healthy relationship with the news, regardless of where they're getting it. Fantastic. That's well said. Well, thanks so much. for coming on. Why don't you end us with just giving listeners an opportunity to subscribe and how do they do that? How do they get plugged into the pourover? Yeah. You can go to the pourover.org

or just Google the pourover and news. And then if you, it's the same content is the newsletter is the largest. It's also turned into a podcast. It's the same content. And the podcast is called the pour over today. And you can search for that anywhere you listen to podcast. Awesome. Thank you, Jason. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Navigate. If you're interested in learning more about strategic navigators,

feel free to click on the link in the description.