Business Innovators Radio - Unleashing the Power of Direct Buzz Marketing: An Unfiltered Conversation with Kevin Donlin

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

In this episode of Business Innovators Radio, host Marco Salinas sits down for an unfiltered conversation with Kevin Donlin, a marketing expert with a knack for standing out in a crowded industry. Together, they delve into the world of direct buzz marketing, exploring the strategies and tactics that have made Kevin a trailblazer in his field.Kevin’s expertise lies in response-driven marketing, and he emphasizes the importance of going beyond clicks and likes to truly engage and convert prospects. From follow-up emails and autoresponders to lead generation and collecting contact information, Kevin sheds light on the power of building genuine connections with potential customers. He shares success stories of people buying from him years after initial contact and stresses the value of tangible touches and direct mail in capturing undivided attention.The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Kevin reveals how he combines offline and online strategies, effectively delivering the same message on paper and online. He introduces the concept of the “client cloning system,” a revolutionary approach to growing a client base without traditional advertising. The episode unveils Kevin’s ingenious tactics, including the endorsement letter, small square envelopes, and the concept of a “paper email” as a way to bypass spam filters and capture attention.But the conversation doesn’t stop there. Kevin’s insights extend beyond marketing as he shares valuable tools for personal and professional development, including the 80/20 principle and the “unique naming matrix” for creating standout language in business. The episode culminates in Marco’s personal experience, as he opens a surprise package from Kevin, illustrating the impact of tangible gestures in building excitement and rapport.For a thought-provoking, no-holds-barred discussion on the power of direct buzz marketing and unique business strategies, tune in to this illuminating episode of Business Innovators Radio with Kevin Donlin.https://clientcloningsystems.com/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/unleashing-the-power-of-direct-buzz-marketing-an-unfiltered-conversation-with-kevin-donlin

Welcome to Business Innovators Radio, featuring industry influencers and trendsetters, sharing proven strategies to help you build a better life right now. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Business Innovators Radio. I am your host, Marco Salinas. And today we've got a really cool, fun, educational, exciting podcast coming. most of all because myself personally I'm super excited I've got one of my all-time favorite marketing geniuses marketing gurus a guy I've been following for for a really long time and and I just have to I just have to say this before I give you the official intro Kevin in a sea full of other marketers I mean I follow a lot of marketers you actually were able to stand out

that in and of itself says a lot. Because guess what? By nature, we're always trying to stand out as marketers, right? And so it's like when you've got all these bright frogs, right, that are all unique and very different, but yet one of them somehow stands out above the rest, that's really saying a lot.

And in my humble opinion, that is you. That is the man that I am interviewing today. And he is none other than Mr. Kevin Donnellin of client cloning. systems. Kevin, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Mark. I should have waited my turn to jump in there and thank you. I've thank you three times already. That's about one-tenth as many as I need to. I really appreciate that. That's pretty cool. No problem at all. So like I was saying, I mean, you've been around. You've been doing this for a long time. We're both products of, you know, one of the

all-time legends, of course, Dan Kennedy. And I think somewhere in that mix is probably where I discovered you. I think that's where I found you. But I did come across what you have as a, I think you call it your client cloning system. What is the name of the little mailer that you can send out? What is this called again? Remind me, remind me and refresh me. Yeah, it's called the client cloning kit. It looks like a pipe.

Okay. Yeah, it's a tube with red rubber caps. We can talk about that. But I've been, yeah, my client cloning kit, I'm kind of notorious for that little widget. Yeah, that's right. And it's been a while, but it was several years ago that I came across that, somehow or another, I, you know, as a marketing nerd, I, I ordered it from you and you sent it out

right away. And it came in that little, and that little container, which in it of itself is already very unique and very different. And then I pulled that sucker out and I started, you know, I found a nice little quiet spot. I was going to say, I'm a cigar smoker. So I went to the cigar lounge and I brought your thing and I started pulling it out on while I was smoking a cigar. And I just started devouring each one of your, your little ideas that you had in there. And each one left me with my mind blown because on one hand, Kevin, they were very simple. On one hand, there was something to it that was like, there's nothing, there's no rocket science going on here. On the other hand, you took something that was very simple and you made it extremely unique.

And I think that's a big part of why your systems and your processes work because you're taking things that maybe people are familiar with and recognize. and you're turning them into something that stands out and unique, hence my kind of my introduction about you and the things that you're doing. Since then as well, Kevin, I've come across several other people bragging about you. I've seen several other people on social media saying, you wouldn't believe what Kevin sent me in the mail. I know I saw a post from the mattress guys. You know the mattress guys. Yeah. They had said, yeah. Yeah, I can't pronounce the guy's last name, but you know who I'm talking about. Jeff, Janakabo, that's the, you know, there it is.

Yeah, Janakabo, gosh, it's been a while. It's an unpronounceable Italian name, but a terrific guy, yeah, Jeff. So those guys get used a lot as case studies with, you know, GKIC in the no BS world. They're always bragging about them, right? But then that guy turns around and says, this is all I do all day, but you're not going to believe what Kevin Domlin sent me, you know, so he's bragging on you, right? He's super. And that's my point is that you're kind of the marketer's marketer, man.

I really think that you are. And I'm super impressed with it all. Enough of me bragging about you this whole time. Let me have you talk a little bit about what you're doing. Are you still sending out those little containers? Do you have some new tools up your sleep? Yeah, the answer is yes and yes. I'll have something at the end here if you stay tuned.

There's something I've just developed in the past 30 days. And there's a mail component that goes out to people. So you'll get something in the mail. But I, yeah, let me do like, I'm looking at the time here. Let me do like a 120 second background on what I've done and what I'm doing. I was an accidental pioneer in online marketing. I started selling on the internet in 1994. It was called Usenet then.

There was no worldwide web. Very similar to how you sell sometimes in Facebook groups nowadays. it's funny how things have come full circle. If you're in a closed Facebook group, you can't say, buy my stuff. What you have to do is showcase your expertise. And then I've seen, you know, people have a little their descriptor. Depends on how the group is formatted. But it gently says, here's what I do.

Here's how you can get a hold of me. So I was doing that on these things called news groups back in the 90s. And I ended up selling what could have been the first e-book. I don't know. It was a text file, but you had to mail me a check for five bucks. write your email address in the memo line, and then I would email you the book. I did it for beer money, and it was a lot of beer. But I also just did.

I was just seeing, can you sell stuff on the internet? Turns out you could. Then from there, I ended up getting a job that led to work for FedEx.com. I was one of their webmasters, the second one I think I was from 1995 to 1998. So I started out in online marketing. It was called electronic commerce marketing back then. And my bosses were geniuses. We throw the word genius around a lot, but my boss at FedEx was just out there.

He was like his hair was on fire. He was so smart. And so I had no bad habit to unlearn. I found a guy by the name of Jay Abraham, certainly after I found a guy by name of Dan Kennedy. This was in the late 90s. And since then I've been very heavy into direct response marketing, which is you're asking for a response. You're not just saying, you know, click and like. It's, you know, click and buy.

or click and give me your contact information. And what I've been doing a lot of and really emphasizing a lot in the last couple years is, you know, for me it's second nature is to send follow-up emails automatically to have a drip. You can call it a drip campaign. You can call it a drip sequence, auto responders. It's gone by a lot of names since the late 90s. But I just find a lot of websites are still missing that. We talk about lead magnets.

I'm warming up to the idea of calling it a lead generator because it's not enough to direct attract people like a magnet. You've got to collect, attract, and then engage them, and then collect contact information. And so you get emails for me, I believe, depending on which my lists you're on. So you can send them automatically, then you can also send blasts. And I know, again, there are a million in one ways to write emails. This is not cold email, by the way. I'm not a fan. But if people have given you their permission to contact them, I've had people buy from me five, six, seven years after the fact. And you, you know, you found me many years ago, more than a few. So that's an example of the magic of email done right. But married to that, I'm very big on direct mail, tangible

touches. So the client cloning kit is a perfect example. You know, it's a good PDF and you get it as a PDF too. But when it arrives on paper and you go, you know, you don't print out a PDF and take it to the cigar bar. Nobody does that. No one would. But if you get something in the mail that, wow, this is a round tube. And I take it, yeah, you're going to keep that. And you're going to spend some time with that. So the magic of hitting people offline, and we'll talk about at least one example in a few minutes. But you have their undivided attention as long as you can say interesting things in interesting ways.

That's a quote from Dan Kennedy. I quote him like, I like to cite my sources. So that's a Danism. But if you can say interesting things and interesting ways, and you've, you know, if you're online, I mean, my web browser over here, I've got two screens. This one's got nine tabs open. This one's got about seven. We can't even look at a single web browser anymore. We've got to have tabs, right? So how fractured is your attention online? Not to mention your phone, which is where a lot of people are reading emails. And so no matter

how good my emails are, people could be sitting on the toilet and reading my stuff and they're thumbing through it. I mean, or people, I've had people call me from the gas pump. They're filling their tank. Well, they're also reading emails in line at Target or Kroger. So, I mean, all that stuff is working against you in your battle for attention. And so if you can hit people offline with something that's interesting, printed on paper, not only do you get their attention, but anything tangible on paper is more believable than anything you can read on screen. By definition, it's going to be the most beautiful and persuasive website could be hosted by a hacker in the Bahamas. who's impersonating you or me.

Whereas a letter with a return address that comes with a stamp and a cancel mark and you can trace it back to somebody, even better, a FedEx. That's by definition, more believable, more tangible. And so those are some basics around a lot of what I've been doing for years. It's marrying the online with the offline. That's a short answer. It's too long, I'm afraid. That was closer to five minutes.

But yeah, so anybody watching this now, if you've got a good website and you can get the same message on paper and delivered, you've just increased your effect in this 50 to 100% without doing something else. And I'll give you an example in 30, as soon as we get to it, it's the easiest piece of direct mail in the world. Wonderful. Wonderful. Now this is, this is, Kevin, this is something that you're still very much doing today for your clients. You're still marrying kind of offline and online strategies. Would you say that's kind of still your bread and butter for the clients that you serve? Yeah, it is. You've got to have, I don't worry with startups. I, you know, You've got to have a good business that's solid and a good website.

And if you're doing anything good online, I can help you do much better online, and then I can help you offline as well. I started after all online. I'm one of the few people that's been selling stuff on the Internet for almost 30 years. And so I started an email. That was my first thing. And then I was around. I had a website in 1995.

It might have been 1996. There were so few websites back then. They used to print a yellow pages. There was no Google. There were so few web pages. You would actually buy the internet yellow pages. That's what it was called because they're just weren't a lot of websites. So I've been around for a while.

Yeah. And isn't it interesting back then, of course, that was the new thing. So you were involved in it. And as time has gone by, everybody's all about the online now. And you kind of have started drifting more towards the offline because I think as a general rule, and tell me if you agree, I think it's less crowded in the offline space. And showing up in the mailbox, you're going to stay. stand out. And again, that's my point, right? As marketers, we're really always trying to find

creative ways to stand out. And now more than ever is that is that huge opportunity for businesses to capitalize on the mailbox as it's just we're inundated with stuff online. Yeah, there's a place for online digital, of course. You know, I've got a friend. I was just talking to him yesterday. He's selling $50,000 pieces of equipment through Facebook ads. People are calling him and saying, I need this. That's pretty cool. He's a. genius marketer, terrific guy. But he's also doing direct mail, and I'm helping him with that. And so they go together. It's just like peanut butter and chocolate. You can do fine with one or the other, but together they're just kind of magical. Sure. So your business is called client cloning

system. Can you walk us through just a basic idea of if you're, if you start consulting or working with a business, how do you guys identify the clients within that business that you want to clone? So it's a good question. So the concept is if you have one delighted client and you're doing good work for them and you'd like more of them, you can build one and turn that one into two and then four and then it's a geometric progression. You can explode your results internally. Theoretically, they don't need to advertise for new clients. And this is not my idea. There's a company called Bain Consulting, which is one of the richest consulting firms.

And they had like 20% annual growth for years. It started with a couple thousand dollars back in the late. It might have been the early 70s. But Bill Bain, the founder, said, I have no idea why people are chasing new clients. I'm paraphrasing roughly. He said, we have all the business built in to our current client base. We just have to serve them better. And that's an idea I've tried to run with and been really successful with.

Some of my best successes are with people who've got unconverted leads. You've been following up with them. and you're just not making headway. And if we can reach them offline with a message that complements or improves on your online messaging, we can start conversations. You can call them and they'll say, yeah, I got your letter. I'll give you a bit of inside baseball. One of my most successful tactics is what I call an endorsement letter.

It's not a sales letter. It's written in the voice of one of your clients. And it's a sales letter by another name. So instead of coming from Kevin Donlin or Marco, it comes from Jane Doe. And it says, I'm going to tell you about my experience working with Marco. One or two pages. And it's completely different. It's a referral on paper is what it is.

So the sales shields are down. If you're reading a letter from someone at the same level as you, CEO to CEO, for example, or neighbor to neighbor, there's no sales resistance there. But if it's coming from Marco or Kevin, business owners, There's built-in sales resistance. So I like to sneak around that with what I call an endorsement letter. And all I really need from a client is one really happy client of theirs, a pretty lengthy testimonial.

And I can build that into an entire letter. We get the approval of your client, of course. But endorsement letters are just one of my favorite things to use. And again, that goes by direct mail. And oftentimes it goes FedEx as well. FedEx is the only message that has 100% open rate. And people are intimidated by FedEx. They think, oh, direct mail is a buck.

FedEx, forget it. Well, you can send a FedEx with three-day delivery. If you get a discount, you have to ask for it. But I send them for $10. That's because I do a lot of FedExing. Maybe your mileage will marry. Maybe it's 15 for you or 20. But still, if your sales size, your ticket size,

justifies it, and you should find a way to sell something that justifies it, What's it worth to you to have 100% deliverability and 100% interest for at least one or two, three minutes? The only thing you can do better than that would be to knock on their door and they invite you into their office for 15 minutes. It's the same thing. So a FedEx is just one of my favorite delivery vehicles. And it's funny that I got my start in e-commerce working for FedEx. I'm not a stock owner. So, you know, I don't make any money by recommending FedEx, but there's nothing better.

It still works. Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite. Speaking of what works, now you mentioned you had something and we're going to get to that. I want you to share with what you, the example that you had. But before that, I had one more question for you before we start diving into some of that. You are, again, in my opinion, you're kind of the king of like this outside of the box way of doing things, of thinking of creativity and things like that.

So I'm sure you've done plenty on your own. I'm sure you've done some stuff for others. And I'm sure you've seen some other stuff that's also impressed you, right? Right. And you've been doing this a long time. So is there something, Kevin, that if you were to just pause for a moment, are there one or two that maybe kind of stand out in your mind as maybe unique or unexpected in the form of direct response marketing like a tactic or a campaign that you

felt was very successful, whether it worked on you or whether you saw it work for your for yourself or for one of your clients. Is there anything that kind of stands out? So the one best thing. Well, the answer is it depends. But I think I spoke about it earlier, an endorsement letter instead of a sales letter. Same idea, just a different author, a different voice. So if you can take your best sales message and rewrite it in the voice of one of your

clients, you're going to be on to something. So let me tell you, I mean, look, I write these out every day. And you want something that's going to get open. So on a good day, email gets open 20 to 25% of the time. But a small square envelope, which has a thank you note inside. This has got, as long as you got the address correct, it's 100% open rate. This and the FedEx. No one throws out a small squared omelow.

So if you take, so I've done this for years off and on. Okay, very good. The same one. Yeah. You got one from me. I got two from you. Yeah. One was a, and they were opened.

And they were open. You don't get anything in a small square envelope from your ex-wife's attorney. Or there's no bench warrant for your arrest that comes in a small square envelope. It's only good news. It's a party invitation or, in this case, it's a thank you note. So if you forget everything else from this interview, find a way to tie your sales message to a thank you. And it's going to get open and it's going to get read. Now this is the same principle.

People are familiar with the Gary Halbert dollar bill letter. It's a number 10 business envelope if you open it up and there's a dollar bill tape to the top. That gets your attention and gets your interest. Well, this gets the same amount of open rates for sure. And it's going to get about the same amount of attention because people are going to be intrigued. How many of these do you get in a year? Maybe three, four, five, tops. So it's about getting opened and read with interest.

If you get that, you're halfway home because everything online is just competing for your interest. And your interest is, your attention is completely fractured. So let me throw another one at you. This has been working for me for years. I call it the paper email. And so email rates are 20 to 25 percent, let's say, for the sake of our argument. I just sent one out today that's getting open about 40 percent. So that's pretty cool.

But still, that's like more than a half of them are failing. If you can take your best email message, give it the title, paper email, print it, and I send them, I often will send them in a small square envelope. It's the same message. You don't even have to make much of a change except call it paper email. And so why did I send you a paper email? Because this message is important, and I wanted to make sure it didn't get caught in a spam filter. And then the rest of it is just your email that you were going to send anyway. So I invented this by accident over a decade ago.

I sent it to Seth Godin, who was one of my favorite marketers. And he called me and said, hey, thanks for the nice note. He called me. So back then we used to call it a car phone. But he was in his car. It wasn't that long ago. But the point is, hey, I got through to Seth Godin. So that worked.

And so I've been doing it ever since. And so I get kind of creative. I like to include a picture of my dog. Humor done well is a good thing. But don't overthink this. Just take an email that you were pretty sure has worked before, call it a paper email, put it in an onboard. and send it, and boom, it's going to get open and it's going to get red.

So the idea of getting attention is probably the most valuable takeaway I can give you. Because you need attention. Not attention, you're dead. Your message is brilliant, and it's completely over their heads. It's unread. So you need attention. FedEx and small square envelopes are two proven ways to get attention. Well, I can attest to this.

I hadn't checked the mailbox in a while because, number one, my wife just had a baby, so I was out of pocket for a little while. And number two, I had just gotten kind of crazy busy. So it'd been a few weeks, and I opened up the PO box, and the whole entire thing is just, it's packed to the limit, right? Of course, a great amount of them are bills and things that I'm not very interested in. And I start sorting through these things, this huge pile of envelopes. But there's two that stood out quite a bit.

and do you want to guess which ones I opened first out of that whole pile of letters, right? I went straight to these, especially when I saw that it was from you, you know, this, like I said, this stuff really excites me. And I said, a letter from Kevin is something that I'm eager to open and excited actually to open. But, you know, you've kind of, you've kind of, for lack of a better term, you've screwed up my brain a little bit. You've messed with my mind and my dopamine a little bit because my brain will always associate to you, this little client cloning kit that you sent and all the joy and excitement that I got out of that thing. And so now my brain equates your logo and you to something super exciting. It's like Christmas

morning for me, Kevin. We're crying out loud. Look what you've done to me. Well, and so thank you for that. Yeah. So I'm not complaining. I'm going to give a general idea and then a very specific idea when it comes to creativity. So Linus Pauling, I think he's the only guy ever won a Nobel Prize in two completely different fields. He said the way to have good ideas is to have many ideas. So every good idea that ever shows up online, it's there because there are about 25 super bad ones that didn't make the cut. So I'm just prolific in the ideas I generate and then I just win out most of them. And also, you know, I post a lot on LinkedIn and I delete a lot on LinkedIn because that was that was sucky. Oh, that didn't work. So the stuff you see over time, it just, it's evolution. So though if you want good ideas, just have many ideas and don't be afraid of having bad ideas. I see a lot of people who just edit themselves too early. You've got to be willing to suck for a long time to be good. And don't be afraid of that. There's, the only shame is in not trying. So that's a general tip. Let me give a specific. This is something, so I'm really big on a unique language.

And this will be, I think we have time for this. And this will be a couple minutes here and then we can wrap up. But if you look at your website, anyone who owns a business, do you offer a free consultation or a free e-book? Does it ask people to subscribe to your free newsletter? If so, that's not so good because that's all commodity language. Free e-book, free consultation, free quote, free. re-report, re-newsletter. If you Google those with quote marks around them to get an exact count,

it's in the millions, the number of people who have a free consultation. So when you're saying the same thing as everybody else, you become a commodity. You've been talking for a while here about standing out. If you don't stand out, you're a commodity, just like sugar and gasoline. So how do we shop for sugar and gasoline? We make buying decisions based on price. We go with the cheapest one because they're all the same. So if you're saying what everyone else is saying, you're in a bad place.

You're not going to go out of business tomorrow, but you're not going to be growing as fast as you could. So if you Google client cloning kit with quote marks around it, you'll find a couple hundred instances. They all point to my website. I own that term. And instead of a free consultation, I have a client cloning conversation. If you Google that in quotes, there's a dozen maybe. They all point to me. So I've made it kind of a habit over the years of creating unique words for what.

I do. Client Cloning Systems. I could have called it Kevin's marketing agency. You know, client cloning systems. That's me, me alone. So this is intimidating to some people because, you know, how do you find? This is what I do for a living, one of the things. So I created this thing called, and this is a unique name too. It's called the Unique Naming Matrix. If you Google Unique Naming Matrix, it's all me. What this is is 216 ways to come up with an alternative for free consultation, free report, that sort of thing. And it's an in-house tool I developed for myself. It's pretty cool, I think.

It's real dead simple. It's just three pages. But I'm making it available. I just started putting this out and I'm getting really good results with it. It's free. I'll give you the address now and maybe you can put it in this. But my website is client cloning systems.com. If you go to client cloning systems.com slash matrix.

M-A-T-R-I-X matrix, that'll take you to a download page where you can request a copy of the unique naming matrix. And because I'm such a fan of, you know, offline outreach as well, if you include your mailing address, I'll send you a free little something by U.S. mail. So I practice what I preach. I want to give you something that you can download and use immediately so you can, you know, stop, you can bypass the cursive commoditization, is how I refer to it. You can come up with your own unique language with this.

tool and it's just three pages and here's page one but if you go to client cloning systems.com slash matrix you can grab a copy of the unique naming matrix and then include your mailing address and you'll get something in the mail yeah i love that now is this the tool that you came out within the last 30 days it is yeah i've used it in-house and uh i made it available a few years ago i've expanded on it i knew it to a subscription um some people in in in one of my groups but yeah this is uh updated And it'll take you about 30 seconds to come up with your own unique language. So give a shot, but it's really critical to just speak your own language. If you look at people at the top of their game, like there's Tony Robbins, for example,

he has a lot of his own wording. That's not an accident. If you're speaking your own language, you can't be commoditized. One of the ways to not be commoditized. Everyone talks about unique selling proposition. Sure, you need that. And positioning, sure, you need unique positioning. but that takes a lot of time and thinking and effort to get to those.

But unique language for your initial consultation or your lead generator, your lead magnet, you can do that in two minutes with my tool. And then you can save some brainpower for coming up with your positioning and your unique selling proposition, that sort of thing. That's fantastic. Once you download it, Kevin, is it something that you have access to and you can keep playing with or do you have to redo it? No, it's a PDF.

It's not a generator, but you just print it and play with it. I'm a big fan. So people, that's a good question. I don't do anything really that's an online version of anything because I'm a big fan of writing on paper. Okay, got you. The last thing I leave you with is that if you want to solve a problem,

you really want to put pen to paper or pencil and just start your hand moving because you're using your brain in a completely different way if you're getting physical with your words and writing on paper. This is something. I've been journaling since like fourth grade, right? And so I'm a big believer in journaling. This is much easier than journaling.

Just write. There's a quote. I wish it was me. Someone else said, I don't know what I'm thinking until I see what I've written. And this is how I solve problems and a lot of people do. But I mean, creativity, brainstorming, write the thing on paper and see if you don't get better results than just pounding on a keyboard. that's great that's great last quick little tidbit is there a book that you could recommend is there something that you've read recently or all-time favorite what what can you leave us with in terms of

something to go and do some homework and read and start i wish i had so i'm a huge fan of the 8020 principal by richard cotch there's a little known little workbook which is the 8020 principle boiled down to like 40 pages it's called 16x if you go to amazon i think it's like seven bucks it is the best seven bucks you may ever spend in your life it helps you just get because the principle of 8020 uh the 20 percent you know 20 percent of your inputs will deliver 80 percent of your outputs all things being considered that's a well that's another interview but 16 x if you look for that book on amazon that's a book that is so dogged i actually take it with me on every trip no matter where i go for any reason because it just sparks ideas on the plane for me and you just keep reading it over and over

again? Yeah, it's upstairs. Yeah. It's usually on my desk, but it's actually at my breakfast table because I was reading it this morning. Because you're actually using it, yeah. Yeah, it gets the highlighting is like 17 different colors, and it looks like it's going to fall apart. But 16x by Richard Koch is probably the most useful book I own.

Wow, that's fantastic. Talk about a golden nugget. So myself, after we're done here, I'll be diving into that. I'll be diving into your little naming major. tricks and you better believe that I'll be requesting the direct mail piece so I can get another big dopamine Christmas hit here hopefully soon and most of all Kevin thank you very much for your time this has been a fantastic opportunity for me to talk with you again been a fan for a very long long time of yours and super impressed with all your stuff and can't thank you enough for joining me today you're very welcome mark I really appreciate let's do it again all right sounds good my friend

we will make sure we put all your information in the show notes so if anybody wants reach or contact Kevin, that information will be there. But otherwise, thank you so much again, Kevin, and that does it for another episode of Business Innovators Radio. We will catch you here next time. Thanks for listening to Business Innovators Radio. To hear all episodes featuring leading industry influencers and trendsetters, visit us online at businessinnovators.com today.