Bussin' With The Boys - Jeff Gordon Talks His Rivalry With Dale Earnhardt + Rainbow Warrior NASCAR “Villain” | Racin'

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Recorded: July 21st 2026 | Welcome back to another episode of Racin’ With The Boys. We have another legend in the sport of NASCAR with Jeff Gordon joining the boys. The guys get right into talking about the rainbow warrior era that Jeff had during the late 90’s and early 2000’s. He gets into what it was like being seen as a “villain” in the NASCAR world and how it was tough to navigate during that time. Jeff is known for having the rivalry with Dale Earnhardt and he speaks on what it was like during that time and what he learned from the legend that is Dale. Jeff dives into all of the life lessons he learned coming up through the sport, one of which was that he wished he handled the break up with Ray Evenham better. He and Ray were the pinnacle of driver and crew chief and Jeff breakdown what happened to lead them to breaking up. Jeff then goes onto to say how many more championships he think they would’ve won together if he and Ray hadn’t split up. The boys end the with talking about who has the potential to be the next polarizing figure in NASCAR and what it will take for them to fill those shoes. Jeff also gives his Mount Rushmore of drivers which you won’t want to miss. Sit back and enjoy the legend of Jeff Gordon as he takes us on a trip down memory lane.   0:00 Intro1:59 Rainbow Warrior Era5:57 Being The New Guy vs The Old Gaurd9:12 Being The “Villain”  12:52 Jeff v Dale Rivalry18:02 “I’ll Race My Competitors The Way They Race Me”  19:45 Break Up With Ray Evernham 29:47 The Change In The NASCAR Points System32:00 What Would He Have Told His 2000’s Self?36:23 What’s More Stressful, Driver Or Owner?41:07 Difficulty Going From Driver To Announcer44:49 2014 Texas Gordon v Keselowski50:21 The Next Polarizing Figure In NASCAR?54:00 How Do Driver Contracts Work? 58:16 Mount Rushmore Of DriversSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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He loves to tell people we play for the Niners too. Everywhere we go, he's like, hey, I don't you should. As you should, man. You've got to be proud of the California, right? Heck yeah, no, I'm a big 49er fan. Yeah, yeah, we know you come from

Vallejo, California. So, you know, when we talk about the Rainbow Warrior, you know, that's what I remember. You're saying a California kid with the young face, come in with the attitude, and because, you know, at this time, they was saying that the sport was more like original

Southern Regional sport, you got a California kid coming in wearing the colorful uniforms. Tell us about the Rainbow Warrior Area and what did that mean to you? Yeah, I mean, listen, I was kind of sprung into NASCAR when I didn't expect it. I mean, I grew up in California and I liked all forms of racing, but I was really more open wheel racing, you know, sprint cars and dirt tracks and Indy 500 and things like that. Of course, I knew who Dale Earnhard was. I knew who Richard Petty was. But it wasn't until I moved to the Midwest to Indiana.

And the racing started just taking off to the next level that I really just started looking at NASCAR and going, this seems to fit way better for me, an Oval Track guy, far more than Indy cars and even Indy 500. And got a lucky break to come down here to Charlotte and to, and to, you know, to. take like a racing course and then and then I got an offer to go run a few races. That was in 1990. And next thing I know, a year and a half later, I'm meeting Rick Hendrick signing up with Hendrick Motorsports and going cup racing for Hendrick Motorsports. And our sponsor was DuPont. And they're like, hey, listen, we're a paint and refinished company.

We're going to just splash colors all over this car and boom, you know, and the rain paint scheme came about. And then the success came in 94, 95, our first championship. We go up against Earnhardt in 95 and win that championship. And that's when the Rainbow Warriors were truly born. And, you know, it was just a crazy time for me because it was, if you look at it that way, it was five years from the time that I got introduced to NASCAR to being a NASCAR champion. And so it was pretty overwhelming. And, you know, becoming a rival of Dale Earnhardt and everything else. And then the fan base and the sports blowing up and going, you know, now we're not just in the southeast.

We're going to Indianapolis. We're going up, you know, into Boston area. We're going more than Midwest. Southern California. They were already racing in Sonoma area. But it just seemed like everywhere we went, they couldn't put enough grandstands in. Just packed houses, 100 plus thousand every single weekend. TV ratings are getting, you know, bigger and better.

The sponsors were getting bigger. And it's an amazing time, amazing time to be a part of the sport. And if you look at, I mean, you could kind of take 94 when I won my first race here in Charlotte. The second race was at the Brickyard 400, you know, that inaugural event. was so huge and really the sport was already in a good place, but that Indianapolis race, I think, just took it to another level. And so being the winner of that was amazing. But just that time to be a part of NASCAR's growth and be on top of it because we won, I don't even know how many races we won from that May of 94 all the way through the end of 98, even into 99, we were averaging,

about 10 races, 10 race wins every year. So a huge piece of my 93 wins happened in like a five-year period of time where we were just totally dominating. I mean, that was the era. And not only was that the era, you were the polarizing figure, good, bad, all of it. Like you were the guy. Like you mentioned earlier, like going back to the word overwhelming. What was it like for you being the California kid going against like,

this old guard NASCAR being the polarizing figure, having the colorful race car. Like when you say overwhelming, what things are you thinking about back in that time when you're kind of carrying the weight of being this guy who's kind of against old NASCAR? Yeah, I mean, I had had plenty of success in racing. I mean, along the way, I was fortunate that, you know, I had fast race cars and won races. And even when I got into sprint car racing, I was so young that I was sort of the young kid, you know, being thrown into this at that time. I didn't have as much success in that as I did in NASCAR. So to be the young guy wasn't a big deal.

To me, I was kind of used to that, to have that much success that quickly against these, you know, legends in the sport. And then get introduced to what it was like to have. And I never thought of it as me and Dale as rivals or me and Rusty as rivals. or me and Rusty as rivals, it was really our fans were rivals. You know, the grandstands, they spoke. And the fans, they made it very clear who their legions was to, you know, whether it was Ford Chevy, whether it was Earnhardt Gordon, whatever it was. And so I feel like I'm doing everything right.

We're winning races, we're winning championships. And yet the booze kept getting louder and louder and louder. And I'm like, man, what did I do wrong here? And it took me a while to embrace that or understand that. A long time, actually, you know, 10 years probably before I appreciated it. So being young, having the success that quickly, obviously, you know, the money was coming in like you had never come in before too. So you're also trying to manage that. Luckily, I, you know, I had a great foundation with my parents, my stepdad and my mom that helped me manage that well.

But I still, you know, I was young, made plenty of mistakes. I got married young at that time, moved down to Florida, and that was, that was, you know, a whole other level of craziness. And, you know, got my own airplane and the sports thriving and we're thriving within it. And yeah, I mean, honestly, I look back, it was just a blur. It's just an absolute blur. Things were happening as quick as they were. And we were going to the racetrack, especially in 98. I mean, that year was just lights out insane.

I think the entire season, we averaged like fifth or six place finish. I mean, it just was nuts. And so at that time, you're overwhelmed by how is this happening? Is this real? Because, you know, I just got here. And so it was a lot of fun, amazing time in my life, but also, you know, you know, a huge learning curve of growing up and not just racing. The racing thing was kind of taking care of itself.

It was all the life lessons that were happening behind the scenes. Just like you said in the early 90s, you know, you rose to your championship really fast, right? Just winning all these races in a small period of time. Was it difficult feeling like a villain though in a traditional fan base? Again, you know, the booze were sort of at first. So I'll go back. In 94, I'm pretty sure it was 94. We were in Sonoma and road course.

And you, back then, driver introductions, they would basically put you with another driver in the back of a vehicle or a truck, introduce you across stage, put you in the vehicle, and then you ride around the track and wave at the fans. And in 94, I was riding with Earnhardt around the Sonoma race track for the intros. and you know me I'm I'm just just a punk kid just got here a year ago you know yeah I think I think I by that time I probably had won one race but I still was was you know I'm sitting with the legend Earnhardt and so one I'm a sponge of information just intimidated by him not just because he was the intimidator but just because I wanted to be like him I wanted to emulate him in so many ways and have the success that he had even though I knew our personalities were different in our upbringings and all those things.

So we're going around this track, and I'm seeing signs with a three and a, you know, a circle and a line through it, and they're booing. And I'm like, I'm like, what is going on? I expected it just everybody to be unanimous. It's earned heart. And we're cheering for him. And so I said, I'm like, man, what's up with that? And he's like, kid, as long as they're making noise.

and they're making a lot of noise whether it was good or bad and so that always stuck with me so a couple now a year or two later and the booze are growing for me and I always just in the back of my head as long as they're making noise

long as they're making noise but it's hard for that noise not to get the best of you on certain days you know where you're just like man really like I thought I did everything right to this point

and the booze are getting louder and and now I look back on and go, thank God for that. Like, you know, we all talk about rivalries in sports, and, and you want people to have somebody to cheer for and somebody to cheer against. You want those people to be in the grandstands. I was just at World Cup. I went to World Cup final on Sunday, and, you know, to see those two fan bases just, you know, going back and forth and how much passion there was. And that's what I realized is our fan base was just so passionate.

passionate back then. And so it was, it was, uh, it was exciting and, and, and cool and fun. And, you know, to be a part of that. And, and I look back, I was actually on the phone with Ray Everingham, who was, you know, my crew chief through all that, that time and success, um, just earlier today. And, and, you know, we always laugh and joke about how those, that, that time that, that, from a racing standpoint from, we got together at the end of 92. And then he left at the end of 99, that period of time, I don't think either one of us in our lives will ever be able to duplicate it, right? It was just the best time in our lives from a, from a racing standpoint, performance, winning, money, you know, the fan base, Hendrick Motorsports, you know,

our friendship and the team aspect, it's just, it's just nothing's ever going to top that. And, you know, and you hate to say that, but it's true. It's just nothing will ever compare to that that period of time in our lives. How much was the rivalry with you and Dale real versus manufactured? Like to where the fan bases obviously loved going at each other, but how was it for you personally with Dale? So, you know, we lost Dale right in 2001, and I had built enough of a friendship.

I wouldn't want to call it a friendship. We had a mutual agreement, I guess is what you could say. I mean, he was really good to me off the race track. you know, he really appreciated the business. He saw the sport growing and, you know, he was very focused on the things that could just help that continue. And I think he saw something to me that was like, okay, you know, I don't want to race him on the racetrack, but off the track, he could be helpful. So he was really good to me in that standpoint on the racetrack total opposite. You know, it's like you would go through this driver introductions and, and, you know,

you know, you feel like you got a moment, you kind of bonded and you go down the first turn and he'd just body slam me. And it didn't matter if you, if it ended your day or if it was just a little love tap or whatever it was. And you come to realize when you race against Dale as much as I did and like Rusty and those other guys that he was just grinning from ear to ear inside that car when he did stuff like that. And I never met anybody like that before.

I've never raced against anyone like that. So, so, but I didn't get it. I, you know, I was, again, I was young and I was just so focused on, I want, you know, our team to win races and win championships. I don't want to get involved in all the politics and the noise and, and I don't care about rivalries. I just care about winning. And yet Dale was, was thinking that way and focused on that. So the one, you know, one of the regrets that I had is that I never. got in a position to ask him that question. And I think about that often of if I, you know,

if I had time with him again before we lost him, what would I have said to him? What would I have asked him? And I definitely would have said, hey, you know, 95 when we were going for the championship, how much of that was just total bullshit? Because, because like it was getting under my skin, right? I would do an interview and they go, well, hey, we were just talking to Dale. And Dale said, Well, you know, Rainbow Warrior, you know, Wonderboy, and just all these nicknames he had for me. What are they going to, if he wins a championship, he can't win the championship. Where are they going to serve milk at the championship, right? I mean, like, it was just constant.

And, you know, again, I didn't want to get involved in that. And I kind of wish I had a little bit more because I do think he, you know, he was doing it because he knew it was working. just to get under my skin, but it was working for the media. It was working for NASCAR and the growth and the fans. And, of course, he could get away with a lot more than most people could too. Yeah. Because they'd forgive him even if he said so wrong. But, yeah, so I think that, you know, that's what I'd love to know is how much of it was

manufactured. Yeah, yeah. You could just take it out on Junior. Yeah, you know, you can't, though. Like, Junior is just a good guy, never runs into anybody, you know. And his fan base probably bigger than what his dad's fan base was. So you definitely didn't want to mess with the fan base. You needed Junior to be an asshole.

I know. I know. Oh, man. He became my teammate. And, you know, we weren't tight. But you get close when your teammates. and, you know, everybody knew in the sport, like, whatever you do, don't wreck him. Don't move him out of the way because you're not getting out of the racetrack alive.

But the thing is, though, you never wanted to race him like that because he didn't race that way. You know, he totally different in that aspect as his dad. You know, he would race you hard, race you clean, just had such respect for competitors, for the racing, for the history. Still does, right. So, you know, he didn't give you a reason to want to race him the way his dad did. Right, right. His dad made it easy.

Now, you were just so pissed at him all the time because he just ran into you, wrecked you, did whatever. Talks and noise on the mind. Yeah, all that stuff, right? So you're like, oh, I'm going to run into him the next chance I get. And then you go, hang on. If I run into him, he's going to run into me every. five laps or he's going to take me out of the next five races. I'll never win a championship. So that's why nobody ever retaliated against him because whatever you gave, he was going to give

it back tenfold. He's out there playing the, he was art of war. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Do you guys have, do y'all go on there knowing like, okay, we're going to have like a silent acknowledgement of we're not going to hit each other. We're going to race this clean or is it whatever goes. Soon as the cars, the guns go off, we're going. It's whatever it goes. Yeah, I mean, you, and I'm sure it's a lot like, you know, on the field, right, is you you kind of play the game. Everybody has their own style, and so you approach it with that style.

And then if somebody changes that up or gets you mad or whatever, then you switch, right? And sometimes you can control the emotions, and sometimes you can't. But I always wonder, I always said, I'm going to race my competitors the way that they race me. Mark Martin, right? He's known for point his finger, go on by, lift, get back in behind you. I'm going to see at the end of the race, hopefully, or the next race or something. And so, you know, you never race Mark dirty because of that. And then there are other guys like Rusty.

You know, Rusty was a guy I knew. He was similar to Earnhardt in a way where he's going to. he's going to put the bumper to you so i just knew i'd just be the first one i'll just give it to him first i like that uh during the run you brought up ray earlier and how he left in 99 how did all of that go down because we were sitting with jimmy and he was talking about uh it was chuck right chad he's talking about chad by the way i'm forever calling him chuck thank you for that But Ray was... Chuck Canals.

Yes, go. Seven time, Chan. But Ray was your... Now I'm even confusing the names. Ray was your Chad. Yes, he was. What went down when he left in 99? So Ray was approached by Dodge.

So Dodge was coming into NASCAR. They hadn't been in NASCAR for many, many years. And they were coming with, you know, a really big program. And so they... They went to Ray, and, you know, Ray was at that point. We were both in this point in our career where we kind of both were like, hey, you know, I've contributed this. And he was like, I contributed this.

And so we were budding heads a little bit at that time because we weren't, we weren't battling for the championship. Came off of 98 just, right, crazy. 99, there's no way you're ever going to do what you did 98 because it was just one of those once-in-a-lifetime seasons. And so we were having a solid season, not in it for the championship. And we started button head. This is where I talk about the life lessons, right?

And I think for him, too, where, you know, who's getting the contribution or the, who's being known for the contribution and the success. And as a driver, right, you're getting a lot of the credit. And Ray was getting a lot of the credit too. but when we weren't winning, it was a little bit of finger pointing that was taking place. When we were winning, I think Ray was probably wanting to get a little bit more of the credit. And so we were in this place where if we just made it through that year, I think we win more championships. We just needed to maybe communicate a little bit more, just recognize.

You guys need to grab a couple beers, close the door. how tight we truly were because today, I mean, we do that all the time now and talk about it. But anyway, I didn't, listen, I didn't blame him at all because he was the right guy to take Dodge and get them up to speed and be successful in NASCAR. And he did. He did all those things. But it meant that he had to make a decision, you know, to leave Hendrik. And he did.

And I had to make a decision, do I go with him or do I stay? And so I, you know, Rick Hendrick, you know, and I mean, everything that he had done for me and, you know, gave me that opportunity. And I just felt loyal. And not that Ray didn't feel loyal. It was, I know it wasn't an easy decision for Ray. But for me, the decision was, you know, I'm going to stay at Hendrick. And I, and I went and met with Rick. And so a lot of where I am today, you know, what I'm doing today is through some of that time in 99 where, we're, we're.

you know, Rick and I had those tough conversations about what the future looks like. It turned into a lifetime contract. It turned into equity in the company and it, you know, turned into an amazing career or continuation of the career and being vice chairman, you know, today. So I'm grateful for that, but it did take me and Ray apart and I think we would have had more success had we stayed together. It feels like Brady Belichick. Yeah.

When they started talking about credit and who's responsible for the Super Bowl. going back to that. Unfortunately, neither one of us went and won a Super Bowl after that. Going back to that moment, what was it like? Was it pretentious? Was it when he's deciding to leave was like, all right, go ahead and go, don't need you? Was it, because then it sounded like there was a moment where you might have left with him? Yeah, I mean, we talked about it and contemplated it.

I don't think it ever really got serious for me that that was the right move for me, Because there were so many unknowns, right? Like, Ray, I mean, he, he, you know, was so good at what he did. He built the 24 team at Hendrick Motorsports in so many ways, right? Took the resources that were there, and he brought the people in. And he kind of built that team up. So he wasn't afraid to go do that again and believed it that he could. And he did it.

For me, I was like, man, we got such a good thing here. And it's Hendrick Motorsports. How are we going to go compete against Hendrick Motorsports? And so to me, the risk was the lead. And obviously it was the right decision. But I'm sorry, what was the first part of that? It was basically curious how your guys' relationship goes from. Okay, he's going.

You guys were both kind of doing the, you know, who's going to have more credit? It seemed underappreciated. Wanted a little bit more of the credit. We started getting a little bit at one another on the radio a few times, you know. And so you could feel the tension growing. We actually, Ray and I at that time, also owned our own what is now the O'Reilly series, but back then it was called the Bush Grand National Series. Pepsi was a sponsor, and they wanted a little more presence in the sport.

And DuPont had all the races. So they were the primary sponsors. And you and Ray owned that together? So Pepsi, try to put this in context. So Pepsi was an associate on the cup car with Hendrick. And Ray and I decided, hey, let's own a Bush Grand National team and we'll make Pepsi the primary. And so Pepsi came on board. And so we owned this team together.

I drove like six races a year. Ray and I owned, but he did all the work. Let's be honest, I just did the drive. And I think he got a taste of that. And he liked it. He was like, yeah, I like being in control and building something, you know. Yeah. And we had a little success.

we won a race each year. I think we did it in 98 and 99 or 99,000. I can't remember exactly what it was. Well, it became time where it was evident he's leaving and I've got to get a new crew chief. And then there's what we call team proprietary content, right? If your guy is working on that and he's going to start a new team with a new manufacturer, how much of this content or information is going to be valuable that he takes with him. So then they started becoming those kinds of conversations internally. And so I had to go to Ray one day at the end of, I think it was the end of 99, if I'm not mistaken, and just said, hey, I think we're probably going to have to end the Bush Grand National Series team. And we're not going to be able to lie to have information on the cup side. And he took offense to that.

He was pretty upset about that. Probably another life lesson. Definitely. owning the team together, hey, we're going to split up on the main squad. We got this one over here. And the main life lesson was, and I've done this, you know, a handful of times in my life that I could go back and say the same thing is it's not what was done. It was how it was done.

And I could have handled it better. And I think it could have gone smoother. We could have, you know, come to a better place. But anyway, so that was, you know, a contentious time in our lives. for the next two, three years. And then, you know, today we're, I mean, like, he's my best friend. I love that, man. Yeah, sure you guys talk back and laugh about a lot of those situations.

Oh, yeah. Do not envy being in your guys a spot back in 99, though. Yeah. That's tough. That is tough. But do you see, like, a crew chief, how successful can you be with the right crew chief? Is that the main piece is having the top of the line crew chief? I think it's a big piece of them.

The crew chief's job, I don't, you know. be a crew chief not back then not today it is they have it all on their shoulders right everybody when things go right oh man the driver drove a great race pick crew and all they don't go hey the crew chief did all this you know work with the engineering group to to put the perfect setup underneath that car and call the race this way you know they just they don't get enough credit in that in that position or in that moment of really what's weighing on them and i mean they're managing people they're managing engineering. They're executing the race, calling the strategy,

and keeping the driver calm when he gets excited, whatever it is. I mean, they have kind of all of it on top of their shoulders. And so I do believe the crew chief is the number one critical piece. Now, I love this because you go and talk to Chuck. Shout out of it. I'm like, Chuck will tell you. It's like, nope, you got to have a great race car driver. Starts with a great race car driver, then, you know, crew chief, pick crew, engineer, and all that.

So in all fairness, it's just like every other sport, it takes the whole team, takes all of it. But there are a few key individuals in that combination of driver, crew chief, because, you know, the way that they handle stressful situations, the way they communicate, the way that they lift one another up, you know, when one's having a good day, you know, somebody's got to be there and support them. you know the leaders of the team play a big role in that and and it's the driver and the crew chief but the crew chief I would I would even put him he's the head coach yeah it's like quarterback head coach kind of situation how many uh in your mind looking back how many you think you're winning of race days I mean I definitely well listen we want to get into a debate we could talk about the NASCAR point system you know and whether or not it should have stayed the way it was and whether or not we were to one more championships, seven, eight, I don't know.

So that was maybe the first thought that popped in my mind when you said that. But I think Ray and I stay together. I definitely think we win at least two more championships. So that would have taken us to six. If you ask Ray, he probably thinks we could get seven or eight. I think Ray stays and the points stay the same. Who knows? I mean, that could be a big number.

Why did the system change if it was all? was good already. Yeah, NASCAR? Why did it? I mean, again, the sports growing and everybody's trying to grow with it. And you've got media rights partners. You've got sponsorship tracks, fans, teams, right? You've got the sanctioning body.

Everybody is trying to figure out what's the right move, what's the next move, and how do we, you know, stay relevant. And, you know, at that time, I mean, really it was NASCAR was sort of top three in many ways, right? I mean, it was NFL, has always been NFL, but you start looking at MLB and, you know, basketball, NBA, hockey. I mean, NASCAR was just knocking it out of the park every weekend. And so I think it was, hey, how do we keep this going? And if you looked at all the other major sports, there was a playoff system. And so there wasn't just this whole season all year long. Not to mention 98, we had that thing wrapped up with like two, three races to go.

And that wasn't the only time it happened. There was a couple other drivers that just had a dominant season. And then it didn't come down to the final race. And then you look at tracks trying to sell tickets to the final race of, building this up, hey, come see the championship battle in the last race of the season. Then, oh, sorry, yeah, championship was decided two weeks ago or last week. So there are all of those things and then some of decision making that came into, let's create a playoff system.

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Go get a workout. That's called doing the work. Form energy. We do the work. If speaking, talking about life lessons, if you go back and talk to yourself in the 2000s, to that guy who wasn't able to get that same success, taste all that same success that he had,

that Jeff had in the 90s. What would you say to that guy in the 2000s? Well, in, you know, in the mid-200, well, let's see, Jimmy came along in 2002. I think his first championship was 06, right? And so when I looked at what Jimmy was doing with the same equipment, right? Basically, I mean, yeah, different team of people. but the same equipment, same resources,

and they were getting more out of it than I was. He was getting more out of it than I was. And so I looked at what Jimmy, and he made me a better race car driver he did because he was working so hard at it, studying all the data, looking at other drivers and techniques. He was able to adapt, you know, to different circumstances.

His physical fitness level was, you know, on another level. I mean, he and Chad were, I mean, they were, even though they, they, Chuck, sorry, Chuck. You know, they would butt heads from time to time, but they always worked through it. And they were just so good, you know, together. So what I would have done different is, you know, just some of those things, right? And I'll be the first to say it. When you come through the mid-90s like we did with the 24 team and you win 50 races, right, during that time.

And we won a championship no one. You know, I mean, like, that's, you know, one of the things, I guess that was sort of my, my Brady Belichick, you know. Yeah, you went to Tampa. You got the Tampa. You got the time. We did get the championship, no one. Got about that. And the Daytona 500, no five.

Sorry, Ray. But, but, no, I think that, you know, there was more effort that could have. I was living, you know, a very privileged lifestyle because of the success. You know, like I said, I moved to Florida and, and, you know, I've got my own plane and I've got big PSA deals. And, you know, to me, I'm getting invited to red carpets. And, you know, I'm taking the success. Saturday Night Live. Yeah.

I mean, S&L and I'm enjoying life and I'm enjoying, you know, the success. And I think my focus on the track and with the team suffered a little bit. I don't think I was as committed. I know I wasn't as committed as Jimmy. When Jimmy came along, you know, he reminded me of who I was when I came in this boy. Yeah. And he just was relentless with it. And I was like, ooh, okay, I want to see him have success.

I'm happy for him. He's at Hendrick. We're friends. And man, like, better for Hendrick, better for me, right? Yeah. And better for all of us. And that's why we wanted him to be there. why we wanted that 48 team, you know, to be the fourth team at Hendrick.

And then it started to turn to dominance. And I'm sitting there going, wait a minute, I don't like this. I don't like what it feels like to be getting beat, you know, on a regular basis and not be the top team at Hendrick Motorsports. Yeah. So, so yeah, if I could have done it over, I think I would have kept that, that intensity level up. that I did in the mid to late 90s. Didn't you own his car at the time too?

So again, it goes back to the equity, you know, that I, the negotiation that I had and the lifetime contract came with equity. And that equity was an LLC that owned the 24 team. And then the LLC, when Jimmy came along, fell under the same LLC. And so it was basically the 24 and the 48 team. So yes, when he was doing well, I was doing well too. You just want to win those races, though, man.

But trust me, it was a lot better when I won. I was a man, I'm happy for him. I'm much happier when I win. You got one, D? I was going to ask you, do you think it's more stressful being an owner or a driver? It's a good question, good question because I don't think there's a greater stress when it's, and pick any race, but let's just take the biggest race, Daytona. And there's a late caution, and you're sitting, you know, in the top two rows, and it's three to go. And you've got to hit the gears perfect, hit the restart perfect, block all the lanes, make all the right decisions and moves.

And there's no more pit stops. There's no more strategy. It's just you in that car and what you do with it. And that's a tremendous amount of stress, but it's also incredibly rewarding, right, when you get it right, incredibly disappointed when you don't. In this role, it's I can only add and do so much

that can control any of those things. And really basically it's all out of my control. But the relationships that I've built with the teams and the people that help get them to that place, that's what I get to thrive in and enjoy and carry the stress along with it because you want it so bad for them, for those people that you know put their heart soul into it and got themselves in that position. And if it doesn't go the way you want to go for them, you're maybe not as disappointed as they are or not as disappointed as you were when you were a driver, but you still, you carry a lot of

that. And then on the flip side, you know, I get to find the joy in that success, too. When, when it all comes together, the highs may be not as high as when I was a driver, but it's the next next best thing. So I'm enjoying it far more than I ever thought I would. And I'm, I'm just, you know, enjoying the grind of it all, the building of it and the behind-the-scenes things that nobody really sees and talks about of what it takes to, you know, kind of see what Rick Hendricks done for all these years, which is just move all the puzzle pieces around, see when people mesh and work well together when they don't, you know, trying to bring new partners into the sport or into the team that might give us new resources or tools to go do a better job. And so it's a lot of fun.

It's a challenge, but it's a lot of fun to be a part of that. I'm enjoying more than I ever thought it would. When you talk about people not understanding behind the scenes, has there been a moment or an example you can speak to to where you come across something behind the scenes where it was like an aha moment or oh, that's how that works? Or even when you learned about back in the day when you were a driver and Hendricks was kind of moving pieces behind you. Yeah, I think as a driver, I think I can speak for most guys. Some guys are a little bit more involved in some of the mechanics of the cars. but for the most part the drivers, you know, are in their nucleus of, you know, a tight-knit group of, you know, mechanics and engineers, pit crew and crew chief and all that. And you're really focused on that.

You don't need to get too far outside of that. Just focus on doing your job, doing your part, not be a weak link, right? And if there is a weak link, how do you support them? If you're the weak link, how do you get better? And so, you know, this role is just so much broader. You know, there's just so many more people that you're touching. You're coming face to face with having more conversations about things that were going on before when I was a driver that I knew about but didn't know the level of it. You know, when they're when they're in the engine shop and they're working through a solution for, you know, valve springs or finding more power, like I would get to see the benefits of it.

You know, and I hear about it and like, hey, engine's running great. Thank you. You know, but I wasn't there on the floor watching them actually work through, which I get to spend more time with people. That's one example. I just have a far greater appreciation for all the people that are contributing to that. I was always thankful of the team, but I was really focused on the 24 team instead of Hendrick Motorsports as a whole. and now now I get to be a part of all of it and I love it I mean this is Rick always says this is a people business and and when you get to to you know all the people far better and see what their contribution is yeah it it makes you really really proud of what what has been built over the years being a part of that and being a part of it today dude how hard was it driver broadcaster

executive in the broadcasting phase yeah how hard was it going from being criticized and praised to now being the one who's criticizing and praising yeah that it was tricky balancing it's honestly why the tv thing was great and i enjoyed it and but it while it lasted i think what six years um and not longer because i couldn't do i couldn't do both at the level that i wanted to do it you know you kind of i'm sort of maybe it's just me i just i got to pick one You know, like, you've got to pick one and really focus on it, and I can do a good job with that. But it's a great experience. I mean, I love that I got to do TV and see it from that perspective.

So, yeah, one is it was very hard to critique because, and it didn't matter if I'm critiquing my own team or if I'm critiquing someone else. There's an incident at Darlington, Chris Busher, I think, was. I don't know if he was about to go lap down or whatever, but I think Jimmy was leading the race at Darlington. Anyway, they come off a turn two, and Jimmy gets a little bit loose, makes contact. I don't know if they both wrecked. I know Busher wrecked.

And I'm having to call this, and I got it wrong. You know, I put it on Bush, you know. And then I got home that night, and I've seen all the different angles and thinking about it more, and I was like, man, I screwed up. I got that one wrong. And so, and then I'm looking at social media and they're like, oh, you know, that was not, that was totally Jimmy's fault, right?

And they're like, Jeff, Jeff, such, you know, he's so biased. He's so biased, right? And I really, I really wanted to go into every broadcast and not be biased. It's impossible not to be because you have these relationships, but I really wanted to be as neutral as possible. And I promise you that's what I was trying to do that day, but it didn't. come across that way and and I remember I called busher I texted busher like like I still think to this day barely speaks to me that was a long time ago but but the bigger challenge with that was

that I was coming into the race shop during the week you know because because you know even though I'm doing TV and at that time during that first half the year for Fox was my kind of primary focus but I'm still doing a lot with the race team and coming in. So you come in and you're like hesitant to walk into a room or a meeting if something happened in you and you called it the way you really saw it. Yeah. You know, I think even those guys are thinking I should be biased. So that was tough.

And then, you know, the second half of the year, I felt like I took that entire second half the year trying to to make up for either not being there as much because I'm doing TV or having to call some things the way that I saw it that didn't align with maybe you know the guys at the shop the crew chiefs or drivers or whatever it may be and and I just felt that there's just too much conflict there just it just wasn't and I didn't think that I was in tune with what was happening on a regular basis with the race team at that, by only doing it kind of full-time half a year too. So about, you know, year four or five, I realize, okay, I need to make a decision here. And it was a pretty easy decision.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking hearing you talk and I'm thinking of an iconic moment. I'm going back to 2014, Texas. I know you know where I'm going with this. I'm just glad you didn't go back to Phoenix. I had a few of them. I said I was going to drop on you. But I go back to that time and I just remember you, you know, getting out of the car looking and your pit crew. All I could do, the pit crew, having your back going toe to toe with his pit crew.

Well, Kevin Harvick must have had my back too, if you remember. Yeah, he did. He was in there, yeah. He's the one to push Brad in. I was reaching, reaching. He pushed them in to you. I'm like, thank you. Got a hold of them.

But it was like iconic because, I mean, your crew had your back. Yeah. I mean, to the tilt, no matter what, what it was, they had your back. What was the conversation after that? And how fucked up did y'all get? I mean, there is no greater feeling, right? It's the thing that if I miss anything today that you just can't replace, it's how tightening it you get as a group going into battle every single weekend and you're

either winning or losing together but you're doing it together you're building relationships and and you're either on this climb to get out of the hole or you're trying to stay on top you know and and there's there's no closer relationships that you get uh in racing than that so in that moment when you've been through that and then they got your back like i mean poof you know it just sends chills at my spine, just thinking about it right now. So, yeah, that was very cool. 2014, I'm trying to think where I was at on my partying. I think I had toned down a little bit, you know, at that time.

So I don't remember getting after it too much. I think we're still feeling the sting from really what that meant that day, right? Because we win that race, even if we don't win the race, even if we just finished top five, we're going to go race for a championship in Homestead. And we won Homestead, I believe, that year. Anyway, like to me, that was my real last shot. Even though in 15, my final year, we battled for the championship in the final race, 14 was the year.

I felt like the best team, the best cars. and could win it. And I felt like that was a buildup to that sort of being ripped away from you. And listen, it wasn't totally fair to put all that on Brad at that time. I think that, yeah, I still don't like the move that he made, but at the same time, I can't knock it. I don't feel like it was intentional. I don't feel like it was just a blatant thing that was like,

hey, I'm taking Jeff out of this racing championship. But at that moment. That's what it felt like. That was when Scrappy came out. You had a great grip going on a tube. Who's Scrappy? Wait. So first of all, we can go back all the way back to the beginning of this interview in Vallejo, California.

When you grow up in Valleo, California, you got to fit for yourself. You got to. And it, you know, it made me who I am today. I'm really proud of it. But, you know, I've gotten in a fight or two through those early years. And so you didn't see that come out very often in me, you know, my racing career later. but that was one of those moments. Honestly, I went up

going, I just, like, yes, I want to punch him right now, but I'm not going to do that. I'm going to try to have a conversation, get some sense made out of it. And when he turned his back against me and just wouldn't even look at me, I'm like, dude,

I'm not walking away from this. And then he had his pit crew guys up there blocking me. And my guys are behind, right? And it's getting big. The crowd's growing. and that's when I saw him getting closer to me because Kevin, I didn't realize it was Kevin at the time. I just knew that he was getting closer to me and I just reached out and latched on and did not let go. No, you did not let go. Well, one, I had a stronger grip than I thought I had.

And also, Nomex does not, it does not tear. So I got a hold of the Nomex. And once I had a hold of that, it was, yeah, because I knew I actually did punch him. You don't really see it. But I actually did have a little, yeah, but anyway. Slipped one in there. Yeah, slipped one. Grab it like in the, have a control of a face mask. Have you never saw this clip? Yeah, the video of him fighting, you're talking about, is it Kislovsky?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all you see is. Him talking about it too, like I wasn't thinking I'm going to go over here. I want to punch his dude, but I'm not going to. Once you have all the people around you, all the boys, and then you feel some holding back methods happening and shoving, you just can't help it. Can't help it.

So the aftermath of that is, is I hope we don't get suspended. You know, I hope, you know, what's going to be the fine. So it's hard to go into that going, thanks for having my back, boys. We should have won that race. And let's go party. It's more about, oh, shit, what just happened? Yeah, yeah, what's coming? I feel like NASCAR could use a couple more of those moments.

Heck yeah. We're trying to build the sport. Who in your mind, because you were in such a, obviously it was like lightning in the bottom when you sprung on the scene to be this polarizing figure. Who do you feel like has some of that potential in this generation of NASCAR? Yeah, it's, I wish it was an easy answer. It's tricky, right? Because the evolution of aerodynamics and race cars is making it harder for somebody to dominate.

and I think you've got to have the lightning in the bottle personality or or you know connection to a fan base that that kind of creates that but you got to back it up with the winning on the track and it's just I mean you right now you've got Denny Hamlin right he's he's I feel like doing a great job on the track you know he doesn't mind speak in his mind and so it definitely it's easy for that to create some rivalries or to create like or dislike them either you know everybody respects him because of his talent but I think you know what he says off the track you're either going to love it or hate it and and I think I think Denny's adding a lot of value to the sport right now for sure yeah I see what

you're saying but young guys I mean I know everybody's focused on hosevar and in you know buddy every time somebody comes on this show in particular racing with the boys and we bring a post of our name like it seems like he's not you know have a lot of allies in the clubhouse. Everyone, everybody. Like if he's a beast, it seems like he could be the cat. Yeah, but I want him to be successful. I want him to win more because we need him.

We need that. We need if he's willing to put himself out there like that. And listen, you know, he was up at, you know, Metgala and I think he was, you know, around the espies. Like he's doing all the right things. And NASCAR's helping to get him in the right places. But if he doesn't have more wins, then it's only going to take the sport so far. So, you know, to me it's a combination of the Hamlins, the Chase Elliott's, the Larson's, the hosts of ours.

You know, like, you've got to have, you got to have a handful of guys that are bringing something unique and special. And I think we got a good group. We got some good momentum happening right now. but but i think for hosts of art to really stand out he's got to win more yeah yeah i see what you're saying too when you brought up earlier when you were answering the question of somebody dominating because of aerodynamics and everything else it is like back in the 90s where you could potentially dominate and take over and have it all won by a couple races out yeah and then you're just the man and then your fan base loves you and then you could be on the mic and say a couple things like oh

where they're going to celebrate with milk or you can even say oh i've had this thing wrapped up for a couple weeks now to where it just strengthens your audience even more or brings in people who hate hearing you say that or brag a little too early because you can just dominate like knowing you get on the you get on the track and everybody's thinking like oh shit this is this is this is jeff's track right here just probably going to win this one exactly i mean you have one ability to back up what you say yeah you know by by action on the track and the other is that you've got a group of very loyal fans and people surrounding you, they're going to support you no matter what you say. And so that feels good, right?

And it gives you confidence and you can just keep going with that. But those other pieces have to be there. Yeah. What does a contract look like for a driver and what do you consider a failure in the driving community, like driving sports world? Let's cover both of those. So like a driver contract? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're usually three years with a two-year extension is typically what they look like.

You know, there are there's purse and media rights money that's tied to the charter, which is, I don't want to call it a franchise because it's not, but it's sort of like the franchise system of NASCAR. And so there's, there's, in racing in general, just race car drivers, just not just NASCAR, there always is a split of, hey, if we're earning money, if we're bringing money in by, winning or wherever we finish, then there's a split of that of some percentage. Could be 30%, 40%, 50%, 50% goes to the driver. Okay. And that still exists today in some form. And then there's a base salary. And then there's performance bonuses.

You know, you win the championship. You know, you win certain races or a number of races. And there's bonuses. And then listen, the guys are making, the top guys right now are making great money. I mean, you know, just sign a new media rights deal, what, two years ago, this is, I believe, our second year in the new media rights deal, NASCAR did a great job, is, you know, very good money. And when that goes up, then salaries go up. And, you know, sponsorship is a unique thing in NASCAR for the race teams. It plays a big role in how we go racing. And while the media rights numbers are probably at the top that they've ever been, the partner and the sponsorship numbers are not what they were when Dale Jr. was there.

And even in my heyday and Jimmy's heyday, I mean, those were some big numbers. Also the licensed merchandising. So that was huge back then. I mean, that was the one thing going back to Earnhardt, too, is, you know, he was adamant. when we were off the track talking business, get your rights, you know, get your likeness and your rights to your name and control as much of the licensed merchandise as you can. And the reason he was so adamant about that is because there wasn't as much money coming

in from media rights and sponsorship at that time, but that royalty check thing was huge. So along the way, you know, probably mid-2000s, that started. to cross over where the meteorites deal started getting much, much bigger in the sponsorship deals. And do you play out people contract or can they be fired? Is it a clause in the contract where you can separate their contract? Separate it. I mean like, say like, say like one. Like for us, it's like, hey, really boy, bring your iPad. Yeah. Yeah, we cut it. I'm about to. I'm about to be let go. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not if you're in the middle. middle of the contract. If you are coming up on a renewal, like an extension, 100%, right?

It's the team has the option to, to, to, to make a change. If you're in the middle of a contract, unless they do something really, really bad and they want out of it too, you know, then maybe. but I've rarely ever seen where we're in that situation unless you buy them out. If there's somebody out there that's so attractive and advantage advantageous to bring in, coming from a with a sponsor as well and a level of performance that you're like, man, I'll do anything to get that driver. Then you would probably go to the current driver and go, hey, I think it would be best, you know, if we part ways and here's,

here's sort of the going away money that we come along with that. Yeah, the compensation package. Yeah, to exit. We're seeing we need a wrap. I do have, Jimmy came on. And Jimmy gave his Mount Rushmore of drivers. All right, all right.

I would love to know your Mount Rushmore of NASCAR drivers for Jeff Gordon. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, listen, I think that I look at it as combination of championships wins, right? Because if you look at Earnhardt, Earnhardt won seven championships, but 76 races, I believe, is what he won. And so he doesn't have the wins to go along with the number of championships, but yet he's still number one.

And Richard Petty's got 200 wins and the 7. championships. You know, I didn't race against Richard, but, you know, I would put him as number two. Not that we have to have it in order. We're just looking for four to go up there. And then David Pearson, to me, he's second on an all-time win list at 105 wins. And to me, he's number three. And then I'd put Jimmy number four.

Just because, you know, you got to have three-seven times. Over you? Like, you did on his car. I'm not putting myself up there. Well, I mean, Jimmy put it. Jimmy wasn't nervous to put himself up there. If you want to put a fifth up there, I put myself fifth. See, Jimmy put himself fourth.

So he said, Jimmy rattled off four. He didn't like a list, but he did right. He rattled off four. And then he said his self last at the end. Yeah. Who's winning a Dover? I mean, listen, if I'm Jimmy, it'd be hard for me not to put myself up there too because he's, you know, like, you have to have the three seven-time champions up there.

I mean, that to me is just a given. I think it really comes down to who's the fourth, right? And I would put Pearson just because I chased his record my whole career, well, you know, halfway through my career when I thought, you know you're not getting to Richard Petty 200, but that 105 seemed attainable at one time. And, you know, I got to 93. So to me, Pearson was always just,

and you look at his percentage of wins and, you know, what he did, because he didn't always run a full season. And he didn't always chase the championships when he probably could have been. But man, that guy won. He won a lot. And I respect that. So Pearson, Petty, Earnhardt, and Johnson, you, you're at the Daytona 500, at the peak of your careers. Who's winning the Daytona 500?

Oh, all of us? Yeah. Earnhardt. Yeah, no, he's the man. He's the man. I mean, Earnhardt, nobody could. I mean, like I watched him do things, and I was fortunate enough to learn from him and apply some of those later. But, no, he did things at a super speedway.

Even though he only won one Daytona 500, the guy should have won 10 or 15 of them. I mean, he was, you know, dominating races, leading more laps. You look at what he did at Talladega. And it just for whatever reason, the Daytona 500 sort of just, you know, was his kryptonite until 90s. but but he he was a master absolute master who's went on a course like dover jimmy yeah i mean that was his track i mean that was that's that yeah what's a course you're taking it no questions asked it shouldn't even be asked well unfortunately my my best track was also another one of jimmy's best tracks uh which is martinsville i think we both have nine wins you know there um

but if i if i was going to say of those guys where would I want to go where I take them? Sonoma. Okay. Okay. Take it to the deep end of Sonoma. Oh, yeah. All that.

Yeah. We got to get Jimmy back in here so they can settle. Yeah. We'll just get them to one-on-one. Like, we'll go out for a day. Yeah. We might get in some stories that can't be shown on television. We do that.

Jeff, thank you, man. Thank you guys. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Big hug, sunny kisses. Thank you for watching racing with the boys. 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C.

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