café snake - Lignes Ouvertes #3

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, I'm Daphne. I forgot that I was watching a movie about a bear for an hour. I was really frustrated. I said to myself, I'm not watching this movie. It's coffee snake. Hello, I'm Daphne. I forgot that I was watching a movie about a bear for an hour. I was really frustrated.

Starting point is 00:00:10 I said to myself, I'm not watching this movie. It's coffee snake. Hello, I'm Daphne. I forgot that I was watching a movie about a bear for an hour. I was really frustrated. I said to myself, I'm not watching this movie. It's coffee snake. Hello, I'm Daphne.

Starting point is 00:00:18 I forgot that I was watching a movie about a bear for an hour. I was really frustrated. I said to myself, I'm not watching this movie. It's coffee snake. Hello, I'm Daphne. I forgot that I was watching a movie about a bear for an hour. I was really frustrated. I said to myself, I'm not watching this movie. It's coffee snake. Hello, I'm Daphne. Hello, I to the open line of Café Snake. As we told you, we are currently on vacation, but we are recording episodes of the open line

Starting point is 00:00:36 where you sent us your opinions and questions and we will react to our capacities. Munir, when does Caféq regular coming back in the wave? So we will come back to the news, live from the 19th of August. So until then, every Monday, you will have a new episode of Café Sneeq's open lines. Tidididu! I have a question to ask the government.

Starting point is 00:01:03 Is he listening to me? What's going on? The lines are open! It's Snakes coffee! Hello sir! Hello! Today I'd like to talk about Nick Suzuki. This year it's Laurenti's. Is there everything to get you excited? Yes, yes This year, it's Laurenti. Yes. Is there everything for Houbler this place?

Starting point is 00:01:25 Yes, yes, yes. It's good for the camping. Cool Cofffield, there's not marked 40 goals. Society in general. I don't like it. I find that we already suffer a lot of American influence. I don't like it. I'm calling because...

Starting point is 00:01:41 So now we're going to listen to Charles' take. Hi you two. Actually, I don't know if my subject would fit in your podcast's podcast's line of direction, so it's up to you. But basically, we see that it's more and more difficult to find a job for young graduates for about, I would say, three years. It's a bit consistent with the fact with the fact that with the artificial intelligence that arrived on the job market, which changes a lot the processes and methods of work.

Starting point is 00:02:12 This change is made extremely quickly. What makes me wonder, these young people who have difficulty finding a job, what impact will it have on their knowledge, because while they are not at school or at work, they must evolve their skills themselves, because of these new tools that are coming on the job market? I don't know if it's well formulated, sorry if it's poorly formulated, but anyway, have a good day. Thank you Charles! Thank you very much Charles! I don't think they hire a lot of companies, and I don't know in which sector you are, but I imagine it's like a white collar job, maybe you work for a insurance company,

Starting point is 00:02:52 you work for a bank, you work for whatever field that doesn't necessarily require technical expertise. But I think the fact that they don't hire is that they don't renew the people who retire, I think that's the phenomenon that happens. And it's in the sense of saving money. You don't have to make the AI link directly, and there are fewer jobs. It can be in exchange. I think it can be used, in particular, the arrival of AI on the market by companies to justify job cuts. But in fact, capitalism is always looking for job cuts. That's it. I have the impression that this's something that has been named for a long time,

Starting point is 00:03:28 like when people go to university, they don't commit, we hear that baby boomers take their retirement, but in the end they take their retirement and we close their jobs, we don't renew them. They talk a lot about that in public service in Quebec, because there are too many officials. I imagine that the artificial intelligence or the great language models have a role to play in this, but it depends again on the sector. Yeah, exactly. But in relation to the GPD chat that will make us more comfortable, it has circulated a lot in recent weeks. Just mention that I would take these results with tweezers. There was a study that was released,

Starting point is 00:04:00 but it's a study that was not peer reviewed, so it wasn't done by parents. Of course, it can be scary, but once again, you have to be careful what you read, and how many people have done this study, and what are the parameters. I think I read a little bit about it, and it didn't convince me necessarily. Who is certain to arrive, for example, it's a process of disqualification. You were talking about qualified jobs versus unqualified jobs. Well, there is a demand for more unqualified jobs with tools like chatGPT. It's a demand for, ultimately, not less jobs, but for less well-paid jobs.

Starting point is 00:04:40 So we want to have less qualified workers to be able to pay them less. And that's the dilemma of automation vs augmentation. It's not necessarily because there are parts of a job that are automated that there will be fewer jobs to do. Often, when ChadGPT arrived on the market, I had a friend in Argentina who worked, who made remote websites for Americans. And then all of a sudden, we asked her to use ChatGPT. What happened was that we asked her to do more in less time. It's not that we gave her less jobs to do. In fact, it's just that her working conditions have deteriorated. After that, I got a text from a woman, Melanie Mitchell,

Starting point is 00:05:18 who is a research teacher at the University of Santa Fe, who writes on the I. And that's it, she said that if we define jobs just in terms of a succession of tasks or a list of tasks, well, in reality, we eliminate perhaps the most nuanced aspects and the most difficult to automate in these jobs, which are located at the border between these different tasks. And she asks, you know, is it possible for you

Starting point is 00:05:41 to decompose your own work into a super-defined set of tasks so that each of these tasks are automated. Could your work in its set be automated? And she said, I think most people would say no. Because when we go to other people's work, it's sure that we don't understand as well as ours, our work. The model of the list of tasks to be automated seems plausible to us, but it's because we're not able to understand this job that isn't ours in all its nuances.

Starting point is 00:06:16 The lack of precise specification of the tasks we have to do in the context of our job is often what makes the messy, complex tasks difficult to automate. Finally, I also had another point about this question, this take, you know, how Chad GPT is even missing us and will maybe alter our way of being, our way of thinking, our faculties. There is an article that came out recently in The Verge, I'll put it in the notes of this episode, called You Sound Like ChatGPT. And this is a study, finally,

Starting point is 00:06:53 on the impact of ChatGPT or major language models on the way we write, we speak. And they say that, indeed, there are words that often come out that ChatGPT will out more often, that Tchadjpt will spit out more easily statistically, like tapestry, that Tchadjpt will favor, and that they will also emit in our vocabulary, to us too. But it also says that the researchers who document these changes noticed that it was not just Tchadjpt's vocabulary that we started to emulate,

Starting point is 00:07:24 but also the tonality of these messages. What they said is that current studies are mainly focused on vocabulary, but researchers suspect that the influence of the IA is starting to manifest itself in the tone of our messages, in the form of a longer, more structured speech, and an emotional expression that is perhaps more attenuated, perhaps more neutral. So yes, it's sure that it influences us, technology influences us and we influence technology. Thank you very much for your take. And now we're going to take Marie-Lise's take. Hello Daphne and Mounir, it's Marie-Lise here. The message is mostly for Mounir in this case,

Starting point is 00:08:02 my twin by the way. To moan, you won't like it. I want to talk about sovereignty. I'm an old lady, as you know. My grandfather was a national union representative. I was born a first-time sovereignist. I've always been a sovereignist. The last four players were the ones who raised the flag. As soon as I got there, I fought for the first referendum. I was in high school. After that, I became a journalist, so I also calmed down on my opinions. And I even took a break from my career as a journalist for military, for independence,

Starting point is 00:08:31 around 2010. I worked as a political employee at the Québec bloc. In any case, military, I'm a little embarrassed to say it, because I was in the military at that time with the young people of the Québec party, and established, obviously, in the Chartre. So I consider myself as a traumatized, a broken-up, an independent, since the whole turn, as Quebec quotes the Chart of Values, the nationalist fold. Really, now I associate that with the independence that nationalism has a identitarian fold. I really changed my take on that because what I really care about is the common good, the collective good, collective thought, progressive values, feminism, the sharing of wealth.

Starting point is 00:09:08 And I don't see that in the politically speaking, independentist movement. Now I'm happy to see myself. I listened to your micro-mag, it was really interesting. And I'm the first as an autist now, editor, and all that, to rejoice that music, and maybe even books, that Quebec culture is put forward in the young generation, I can't rejoice more, but I still see a certain angle. Obviously, often, I noticed that young men and young white men who are making the dependence on social networks look pretty superficial. And I understand the criticism of, it's not just the accusers, it's not just intellectuals, but still, it's a big word to offer independence,

Starting point is 00:09:42 so it takes years. I don't think don't judge the Queen on my bank account. And I find that, I don't know, to make a country without equality between people, without equality between people, I don't find that creative, progressive, and intersectional. Before I missed some of the boots, I see more like another fashion effect that spreads online. I see it as another great illusion, when we will have the country, everything will go well. I'm not sure you have to see things like that. And I, over time, I was more tempted to see things between urbanity and rurality, between talking to each other and staying on your side.

Starting point is 00:10:09 I think there are progressive people, there are everywhere in Canada, and especially not to see in the big centers. And that's it, I don't know, when I was younger and I was in the military, I was also radicalized and I said that, sometimes I was a federalist and all that, but it seems that I came back from all that, and I just want to work with people who want a better world, as simple as it is, who want the common good, who think collectively, and who forgets that no one is left behind. Not, you know, the minorities, whatever.

Starting point is 00:10:33 So, I don't know, that's not what I feel, and I don't know why I want to talk about it, but I'm going to open the discussion because I'm... It's me, I don't understand myself, I should be happy, and I'm not, when I see that, I'm not reassured. Let's go, Marlise, I'm with you. You're about to cry. No, I totally understand your feeling, and I think not, when I see that, I'm not reassured. Let's go Marlise, I'm with you. You're a good answer. No, I totally understand your feeling. I think that we'll start with the beginning,

Starting point is 00:10:50 the turning point, the identity movement that took place in the 2000s. I think that we could put a lot of causes, yes there was an increase in immigration, an increase mainly in Muslim immigration, I think that's really what happened. The commission to short-term the EU which led to the Charter of Values, an increase in the number of Muslim immigrants. I think that's what really happened.

Starting point is 00:11:05 The Charte-Eleuw commission, which brought the Charter of Values, which brought the 21st law, all that progress, the events in the Muscat of Quebec, for me it was like there was one thing that turned me off in Quebec. It happened when I was 18, 19, it really marked me. I just miss the empathy for people who have this feeling about Quebec independence.

Starting point is 00:11:27 Personally, or politically, I think that nationalism is a tool that is very powerful to make social and political changes. I think it's more powerful than the idea that would be progressive or humanist. I understand the idea that we want to leave no one behind, a political movement based on rights, progress on the inclusion of minorities, but I think that all this packaging, so that it is more powerful and effective, that it is combined within a nationalism, will make it more digestible for the public. Because I think nationalism is one of the things that has made the most social and civilizational changes in the history of humanity.

Starting point is 00:12:16 And nationalism, I use it in the way it is now, but whether through the attachment to a city, through the attachment, just the identification of a territory, a place, a story. I think it's very powerful and it's well directed. I understand that it was very badly directed in history, the more it can be. I understand why it's like a slippery slope that alarm people. To talk about dead angles, like in the new Sovranists, I think there is still a nuance to be made. Because Oui had still men who are put forward. I think they were calculated as the intervenors in the documentary. There are the two rappers who are men, there is Fruté, there is the president of Wee Quebec. After in the Vox Pop, it's still Paréterre, and there was still an effort.

Starting point is 00:12:53 But I think the idea is that this movement or this new movement is mainly carried by men. That's like, I was there, you know, like I was there at the meeting of Wee Quebec, I was there at the Kinji show, I was there at the meeting of Oui Québec, at the Kinji show, I was there at the Saint-Jean. I didn't see as overwhelmed by men, I saw a lot of women. On TikTok, the people we see a lot wearing this trend, even putting words on it like a check, until Quebec becomes a country, it's a lot of women. This aesthetic also joins a lot of women. No, it's not that it doesn't join women. It's more the central figure of it, for example. It could be Kinji or his brother.

Starting point is 00:13:30 There's no ban. Yes, there are women who rap, but it's not her we've seen. But I think that's just how it happened. He's a rapper, he's gone viral, he's a man. At the show where he was, there was Misrabel. You listen to his song Misrabel, sometimes I'm listening to it. It's a new rapper's upcoming who's in the same scene as Kinji. What are we trying to say?

Starting point is 00:13:51 That Kinji has reduced a woman? Well, look, it's systemic in the sense that often in spaces, in discussions, where politics is put forward, it's going to be a lot more men than we hear. Well, you see, in all the meetings of Oui Québec that I've been, it's women who have taken part. The president is a woman. The whole organizing committee at Saint-Jean was a lot more men than we hear. Well, you see, in all the meetings in Wee Quebec that I've been, here are women who have taken part. The president is a woman. The whole organizing committee at Saint-Jean was full of women. At the financing party, it was a woman artist who was performing.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Her name is escaping me right now, she wasn't like white, let's say. The nuance of this matter with Kinji and his brother, is that they come from the world of rap. You see, the poster that is in Kinji's room, which he had in his interview at TVA, it's a poster of an American underground rapper who is really a hype among young people. Someone took a screenshot and posted it on Reddit.

Starting point is 00:14:32 It became viral on Reddit in the US just because he comes from a culture that is too focused on self-expression. but to remove the clivations between the tension between the unification in rap which was appropriated by white people but at the end of the day, if Kinji really wants to be taken seriously in the rap scene he has to go to Rapolitik and be interviewed by two Haitians he's part of a community, a multi-ethnic scene. And then in his words, in what he's talking about, 17 years ago, it's just his bars, his music, you know, like she clearly has a political message that is connoted. I think it's still maybe a mistake that I made, that I thought was the right thing now, that I see that it often comes back, it's like the absence of politics

Starting point is 00:15:21 in the new sovereignists. We don't talk about politics, we don't talk about political projects, we really talk about an idea of Quebec, country, and the Grand Soir and all that. And I understand, I had an intention behind that, but I think it left too much confusion in how this message was interpreted and recovered by everyone. At first I thought it was a good idea, but I still stand with that choice, but I understand how it can create confusion in that. I think the burden is on me, let's say me or anyone who holds this project live, to be open, to discuss and take it with empathy. I'm not like the people on Twitter who say ah you think I'm racist because I'm an independentist? Well fuck you, it's zero my mindset

Starting point is 00:16:02 about that. I totally understand because I myself was already there not that long ago. Well, that's it, I don't know the history of the Sovereignist Movement, but I kind of plunged into the night of poetry recently, and then I was like a little, I smoked weed, so I was like, I'm going to do some research. And I came across an article written by a French writer, researcher on Michelle Lalonde's Speak White. When I read her paper, I realized that it's a poem that works a bit like a meme in Quebec culture, because it was often taken back and often distorted. And that's one of the texts that resonates in this Quebec-independentist movement, which takes back the Slick White, which means to speak white, which was an insult,

Starting point is 00:16:52 which we heard in the construction sites and in the factories, all that was said by the English-speaking staff, who imposed their laws, their words, all that to the workers in the 19th century. Michel-Alonde took it back and made a chorus in his poem. What I didn't know at all and what I found interesting is that in 1980, there was an author of theatre called Marco Micone, but I wasn't born in 1980, who took back Spick White by Michel-Alonde and made a pastiche called Speak What, which denounced the dead angles of the sovereignist movement.

Starting point is 00:17:25 At the level of the identity issues and the situation of the integration of immigrants in Quebec, which had become central in the 80s. I can read an excerpt. Speak what? How do you speak in your U.P. salons? Do you remember the vicar of factories? And of the voice of the counter-masters. You sound like them more and more. Il y a comme un renversement où finalement cet état victimeur du colon français blanc,

Starting point is 00:17:53 il n'est plus nécessairement d'actualité en 1980, puis c'est lui aussi qui finalement exclut celui ou celle qu'il perçoit comme autre. the one or the one he perceives as another. What is put into practice in this is the importance of having a national project that does not go against another or something or someone, but to do something inclusive. And to have that inclusiveness when we think about society and our identity too. I really agree with that, and that's the vision of the independence that I propose, that I actually support That I support. I said it earlier but I'll say it again because I don't know in which episode it will be. For me, the progressive idea is to support the disruption of the status quo.

Starting point is 00:18:36 I don't think it's very progressive. We're going to stay in the current situation. No, it's a gamble. It can be a problem, it can be instability, it can be a problem, but it's the nature of the left-wing thinking, according to my analysis. I understand, I'm sure there are people I get along with very well outside of Canada, outside of Quebec. I would say that I get along with them well once Quebec is a country, or at least we've seen the place of Quebec in North America again. At least. But I understand, you know, what we're talking about. It's really like the invention of Quebecor,

Starting point is 00:19:10 who started copying Vincent Bolloré, all the conservative media in France. For me, the thing that radicalized me the most when I was young, a kind of denial of my Quebec identity, it was really all the hatred I saw in the comments of the Journal de Montréal and TVA Nouvelle. I'm so sorry. Since I was very young, I read the comments. There was so much Islamophobia.

Starting point is 00:19:31 Now the media are no longer on Facebook. Let's say on Twitter, but when I was young, it marked me so much. There is a video in 2018 on my Instagram that is still there. Of me who is fiscated because the Journal de Montréal makes subcontracts on a Syrian family who went went on fire. You can be in the comments. It's like, oh my god, they're 10 living in a house, oh my god, they're not all dead. You know, I've always had the impression that the managers of those Facebook pages knew a little bit what they were doing and wanted to generate more engagement,

Starting point is 00:19:58 in general, of hate on Muslims. And I think that really has had a problem in the social space of Quebec. I understand the progressive millennials who are disenchanted and who would have wanted that all this to happen in 2012. Like I understand, let's say the second generation immigrants, like my opinion is so not majoritarian but so not close for the moment, but I think there is a tendency that can be done to make it happen. That's it, and I just want to say that I don't do politics, like everyone.

Starting point is 00:20:19 I do... Oh, are you sure we're? I'm an artist. Yeah. Okay. I'm not a rapper. Thanks for your take, Marielle. Thanks.

Starting point is 00:20:28 So, next take by Daphne. She sent it to us in written format, so we put it in text-to-speech, but that was it basically. Hi Daphne and Mounir. I had a proposal for a subject for a possible coffee-snack segment. I've been listening to your podcast, meilleure au Québec of course, depuis un petit bout et c'est un sujet qui a été abordé ici et là au fil de quelques épisodes sans avoir un deep dive complet. L'impact que les procès de personnalité connus ont sur la culture et la conscience collective. Louis-Jim Angion, Sean Combs, Herd Vedep, Live-A-Live

Starting point is 00:21:01 et Baldoni, etc., ça fait longtemps que je me demandais sous quel angle vous pouviez redig de l'information sur ce sujet. Les informations qui sont mises public ou pas, les photos et les dessins venant de la cour. Je me demande quels sont les impacts et ce que ça révèle de notre biais et d'où on est rendu en société. On a vu beaucoup de pages idolâtrées, Louis-J, et plein de débats sur Internet sur les camps que les gens prennent lorsque c'est des conflits entre deux individus. We saw many pages idolizing Luigi, and lots of debates on the internet about the camps people take when there are conflicts between two individuals.

Starting point is 00:21:28 I don't know if it was clear as pitch, but hey. I came across this morning on a TikTok of people who even created a play of theater putting on stage three of these media figures under a carceral angle. I look forward to hearing from you soon. It's really interesting, yes, the impact, the trials of well-known personalities on culture, collective consciousness. I think there are even journalists who have addressed this a lot in the United States, including Kat Tenbarge. We can think of the trial of Luigi Mangione, Didi. That's right, we record that the next day when Didi is acquitted from three charges out of four.

Starting point is 00:22:04 Her, Depp, Lively, Baldoni, etc. I even saw an influencer or at least a content creator who had gone to a GoFundMe, her subscribers actually financed her trip from LA to New York, where she was for 3 weeks to cover night and day the Didi trial. And there was also a system, I don't know if I understood it, but for those who were accepted in the room, they could pay people in a situation of itinerary to keep their place in the line.

Starting point is 00:22:38 I see it as a form of media, a form of show that comes to forge certain ideologies, that comes to spread certain messages. There are even grifters like Candace Owen, from the American right, who will seize certain trials, especially that of Baldoni Lively. I think she covered it a lot, and she will use it as a gateway to reach the public, often women who are a bit influenced by patinage or pop culture, but who are not necessarily right-wing, to

Starting point is 00:23:14 attract them to her, to her media ecosystem, and finally radicalize them. So it can be a gateway. All of this also makes me think about the process of Gilbert Rouson, which is currently taking place. The media treatment reserved for women, women who are often victims, who will be charged. A good episode of a podcast I already talked about at Café Snake, called A Bit Fruity. It's called Black Lively and the Hember Heard Effect, which puts in conversation Matt Bernstein and Kat Tenberg, which I will put in the notes of this episode if you ever want to listen to it, but it talks precisely about that. And this independent journalist, Kat Tenberg, started to really get interested in the

Starting point is 00:23:56 misogynist process a little after Mitou, precisely because she realized it, and that's something I've already addressed in a recent episode of Café Sneak, which really had a sort of twist where victims became the aggressors in the narrative or the misogyny of the trial. So we talked about the acronym DARVO, so Denial, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. It's when we see that finally the women who file a complaining suddenly become the so-called aggressors. All I wanted to say about that is that it's something that Kattenberg often repeats, but this kind of idea of the myth of the perfect victim. Basically, it's not because someone is complaining that the person who is a victim is perfect or has no faults. But in popular culture, it's like

Starting point is 00:24:46 we had this conception that a victim could only be right if she was perfect. And what happens in these media processes is that the aggressors will try to point out all the faults of the victim to eventually make them an aggressor. I think that processes have always had a special place in the collective consciousness. That's how it was formulated. It's true that the media modalities have changed, but we follow them in real time. But in the United States, in the 90s,

Starting point is 00:25:16 the O.J. Simpson trial, we stopped the secondary classes to watch TV and give the verdict live. Then there was the impeachment trial of Bill Clinton, where he admitted his infidelity. It all happened in the 90's. I think it created a new form of influencer, as Daphne said. But there are also the streamers for the trials that are broadcast live. Especially Deb V. Hurd. It played a big role, the big role in the public discourse.

Starting point is 00:25:47 Especially XQC, who at that time was the most watched streamer. Felix Langelle, who is a Quebecer who comes from Laval, who was massively anti-Heard and who had a huge audience at that time. There are also lawsuits that I am more in contact with, they are more followed by the African American community. Of course we think of Diddy, but before that there was the trial of the American rapper, the Canadian rapper, Tory Lanez, who was found guilty of having shot Megan Thee Stallion. And there you see that there are media like Academics, which belongs to someone called DJ Academics, which is the biggest rap blog in the world. He developed a certain form of expertise.

Starting point is 00:26:27 That's what I find in the language. They learn how the class works, the languages, the hearsay, the Cs, the Pauses. There's this whole relationship with the fact that the processes are so big for them, for their content. When there's a big process like Diddy or Torrey Lanes, it's a moment where it generates a lot of attention for him. So he develops a certain form of, not rigor, but a way of working. I remember watching the streams of Academics during the trial of Diddy. He reads the verbatim, he does breakdowns, he does vulgarization.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Even during the trial of Gisèle Pellicot, I was following journalists on Twitter who tweeted every word exchange. I think they didn't have the right to film, so everything was tweeted. But I think it's a way for the general population to take the risk of what is the system of justice. Exactly, that's what I was going to say. It comes to people who have a form of popular education. They learn the language, the practices, and they will also platform people who stand in front of the classroom, who do tiktoks in real time. During the Tory Lane process, this branch of the internet, so fans of DJ Academics, Academics too, became very pro Tory Lane. I think it really played a lot on how the community of rap fans, men, women of rap,

Starting point is 00:27:43 and many women too, now call for the liberation of Tory Lanez. Even Drake, who called for the liberation of Tory Lanez. Drake is the person that Academics is defending the most. And that's really how I relate to the rap world. There was the Rico Case around the American rapper Young Thug. It ended with a And here it's like, we're in a coffee snake summer version. You know, like me, my theory, I tried to explain it to Daphne, but it doesn't make any sense. But you know what? What? I try to...

Starting point is 00:28:31 And on the fascination with justice and the police too. I find that personally, the police and the justice is one of the only places where the truth is written. And I know it's not the truth in the sense that it's true. But it's in the sense that it's something bigger than us. That has control and power so huge from the real. And I think that in everyday life, we don't realize how much society works on the good faith of people. And if someone was really bad faith, he could ruin your existence.

Starting point is 00:29:04 And I think that the police and the justice, they have a kind of power that is almost like... I don't know how to say it, that fascinates so much because it is so real. Through all kinds of media products, whether it's cops or even true crime, where these media processes are done, there is also a put in the story of what is breaking the chaos, so the disorder. What brings back the order is justice, it's the police. It's something that comforts us that it exists. So it's a form of propaganda. No, but literally. That's it, I just think it fascinates and also it scares at the same time. There is a concept that came to mind to talk about double trauma that victims experience,

Starting point is 00:29:52 who will be charged and who could live a media process like that, and who will suddenly have the public anger on them and who will be treated with all the names like Embroidered for example. It's called secondary victimization. And then I read my newspaper, but it's an additional trauma that you are already a victim, but you are victimized again through negative reactions, the lack of support from your entourage or the institutions. And the justice institution is one of them that can traumatize you. So I think it's an important concept for women victims who are often traumatized. So that was the end of this episode of the Open Lines of Café Snake.

Starting point is 00:30:37 Yes, just remind you that one episode out of two is still available on Patreon. So thank you for listening to the Open lines. We'll see you next week. We hope you have a great summer. A great summer and we can't wait to see you in it. But there's always a new episode next week, always coffee and snacks. Thanks everyone! Kisses! The music that is so in the intro and outro is from Azelo.

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café snake - Lignes Ouvertes #3

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