Call Her Daddy - Am I Dating a Narcissist? (ft. Dr. Ramani)

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

This week, Father Cooper is joined by clinical psychologist, author and expert on narcissism - Dr. Ramani. Dr. Ramani provides clarity and explains the core characteristics of a narcissist. She walks us through how to recognize if we are in a relationship with a narcissist and the steps to take to safely get out. Dr. Ramani breaks down two of the narcissists favorite tactics - gaslighting and love bombing. We are given a crash course on the manipulation tactics to spot in a narcissist. If you aren’t dating a narcissist - perhaps you were raised by one? Dr. Ramani explains the effect of growing up with a narcissistic parent and how it often unknowingly leads to dating one later in life. This episode is a detailed guide on how to recognize and rid the narcissist from your life. 

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Hello, Daddy Gang. Welcome back to another episode of Call Her Daddy. This week's guest is going to answer some questions you have been dying to know. When you confront your partner about an issue, does it get flipped around on you? Is your partner rude to people in the service industry? Do they have a sense of entitlement and believe they deserve special treatment? When you're talking to your partner, do they seem disinterested and disengaged? But yet everything seems to revolve around them. What do these questions have in common?

You may be thinking, fuck, Alex, you're describing my partner. What does this mean? This is narcissism. Daddy gang, you are always asking about narcissism and we throw this term around a lot, but does anyone actually know what it means? Today, I am joined by clinical psychologist, author, and expert on narcissism, Dr. Romani. I go through these questions with Dr. Romani so you can begin to understand, is there a narcissist in your life? We discuss the red flags of narcissism. They include gaslighting, love bombing, manipulation, lack of empathy. And Dr. Romani gives step-by-step instructions on what to do if you decide you need out of a narcissistic relationship. If you're listening to this and you feel triggered,

do not worry. Dr. Romani is going to provide answers. Dr. Romani, thank you so much for coming on Call Her Daddy. I remember the first time I came across you was on a YouTube video and you were talking about the difference between narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. And I was not only intrigued because my mother is a psychologist, so I've always been, yeah, I've always been interested in psychology, but I was fascinated because the way that you were explaining it, you didn't dilute the topic, but you also talked about it in a way that someone that doesn't have a psychology degree could understand. So I'm very excited to hear you today because we need your help. So is someone born as a narcissist or is it a result of their upbringing? The challenge is this is largely a nurture issue. It's largely a childhood developmental, social developmental

issue, but with a little bit of temperament in there. And the temperament is sort of our biological part of our personality, the part of our personality that's sort of inborn. So you can see some kids are difficult to soothe, or they don't regulate well, or they're all over the map. They're just tougher kids. Sometimes those tougher kids, those kids with those more difficult personalities, it sort of becomes a sort of their biological vulnerability to this hits up against a world where maybe their parents aren't consistently available. They might even sometimes be raised in frank trauma. There may be neglect. There may be chaos. They may have issues around attachment. So basically something's not quite right in their early world. It is definitely something that happens in childhood.

Every narcissistic person I've worked with, the childhood story almost, it's sequenced out and they were difficult kids. They were born difficult. They were not easy kids to soothe. So that seems to probably be the most likely explanation. One of the books that you've written on narcissism is titled, Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a relationship with a narcissist. And you say this book is grounded in one principle, narcissists are not going to change. Can you explain this? So narcissistic personalities by definition are maladaptive and they're rigid. So that's number one problem, why they don't change. Number two, they don't have a capacity to be self-reflective or have insight. I, I, so I'm going to ask you, all right, Alex, she's, you've, you go to a party and you say the wrong thing to someone. You say something awkward. Yes. Do you go home and think about it? Absolutely. All night. All night. Sometimes even

till the next morning. The whole week. The whole week. Okay. That's you being self-reflective. Now someone will say, well, Alex, why did you say the thing? Well, you're human, right? And sometimes we say things like, oh my goodness, why did I say that? Right? So whereas a narcissistic person might be like, I don't care, you know, or like, that's their problem. Well, what is their problem? They're so sensitive. You see, so they'll immediately blame shift it off and they won't change their rigid schema. But a healthy person is self-reflective and says, I want to be, I don't want to hurt anyone. I want to be careful about what I say. And so that inability to be self-reflective is why narcissistic people don't change because they don't stop to think or they don't care about other people

enough to them. All of us are sources of narcissistic supply. We exist to help them feel better about themselves. So we just, we exist to sort of pump them up. And then another big reason they don't change is narcissistic people are deeply insecure and have feelings of inadequacy. And that you're like, oh, they love themselves, right? That's why it's so crazy because I think people would, the last thing you would think because they seem so overly confident that you would never think that this is probably one of the most insecure people in the room. That's right. And by far, because why would you have to be so grandiose

and entitled and need all that validation if you were cool with yourself, right? But because you constantly are feeling this insecure to say, I'm the best and I'm the greatest and look at me and look what I do and tell me I'm great. All of that. It's almost like a mask. I have so many questions from listeners wondering, am I in a relationship with a narcissist or is he just an asshole? Like what is going on? And so you provided a checklist in your book of typical narcissistic qualities with some questions that we can ask ourselves and some red flags that we can look out for. The list contains 30, but I'm just going to pick like the top five. So everyone listening, as I ask these questions and then we'll go through them. If you're listening, I just want you to consider

your own relationship when I'm asking these questions. So the first question that, well, it's your question, um, is does your partner manipulate people and situations to get their needs met with little regard for the feelings of other people. If you're listening and you're thinking, yes, my partner does do this, what quality does this represent? That represents the quality of manipulativeness. Yeah. So narcissistic people need to be in control.

They need to control the narrative. They need to feel like it's their show, right? Where the rest of us are just bit players in it. And so the manipulativeness is in many ways also a manifestation of the entitlement. I have to get my way. So what narcissistic people can be quite clever at is setting up the situation so that not only do they get their way, they're trying to make it seem like you're getting a win too. Oh, wow. So that's a different level. Yeah. Yeah. So you're, they're like, this is really much better for you if, or don't you? And you're like, what? Or,

you know, or they'll, they'll make it seem transactional. Like, do you remember all the times I did this? Like, don't you think it's my turn now? So they, they play to the empathic nature of other people and use that against them, even though this thing could potentially be bad for this other person. But narcissistic people are very exploitative. They're always trying to advantage situations to what is what works best for them. Because it's all it's either egocentric, it's only what works for them, they don't stop to think like, on this one, I might need to make a sacrifice or a compromise., you know, this relationship matters to me and that's what people do. No, no, no.

They will always manipulate it so they get what they want. And like I said, with the cherry on top, that they try to make it seem like you got a win too. And it's interesting that you, because I know you said manipulation and I know another one is lack of empathy and that's like the crux of a lot of it. And that's how they're able to move the way they do. But it's interesting how you talked about they're prying on others' empathy.

Do they consciously know what they're doing in that equation? Because they don't have empathy. They don't have empathy, right? So what narcissistic people have is sometimes what I call performative empathy. It's not that they don't know what empathy is. They know what empathy is. And they know people like. It's like, they can't be bothered because it's actually, for them, it's work, right? For the rest of us, empathy comes naturally, right? But for them,

it's work and they know it's what people expect of them. So they will have performative empathy. So when they know there's a lot of people around or there's people watching, they'll say, they'll be, oh my gosh, tell me how you're feeling. Tell me how you're doing. But it'll still feel kind of empty and superficial. They also engage in what I call transactional empathy. They'll turn on the empathy long enough to get what they need from you. So they know what they need. They know people like this empathy thing. So I better do this. And then I'm going to get what I need. I'm being so empathic. You're like, oh, well, they were so nice. Here you are.

They got what they need. They're going to walk. Okay. I'm stressed. Okay. Question two, everybody listening. Does your partner talk about their life accomplishments and work in an exaggerated or larger than life way. Is your partner arrogant and convinced of their superiority over other people?

So we're talking about grandiosity. Yes. If the answer is yes, break it down for us. Yep. So grandiosity is probably one of the signature qualities of a narcissistic person. Narcissistic people live in a fantasy world. They will talk about the perfect love story they're going to have one day, the perfect house they're going to live in, the perfect job.

And they talk about it so much, you can see that they're living in their fantasy. What that does though, that grandiosity has an interesting dark side. For most people, they're not living in, they don't have their perfect love story. They don't have their perfect house or job or whatever. And so there's an irritation for them at all times. That's why with narcissistic folks right under the surface, there always seems to be this aggrieved kind of resentful quality. It's because the fantasy isn't being borne out. And in the age of social media, where you're seeing other people living your fantasy, that

sets narcissistic people off like nobody's business. But the grandiosity means that they'll often talk about their goals. Like, oh, my plan is to get like a billion in VC and start this company. You're thinking they got the money the way they're talking about it. And you're like, wait a minute, like they don't even have an idea, but they're so convincing that they, they, that's why they're often great salespeople because they're able to talk about things like they're already happening or you really believe, because most of us aren't confident. Most of us are self-effacing saying, oh my gosh, I can't believe I got out of bed this morning.

Right. But they're like, they're, they talk such a big game and we assume people who talk confidence have confidence. And instead of like, why are you talking such a big game? What are you hiding? When people talk big talk, you should not be thinking they're confident, but you should say, what is it that you're what's behind that? And that's that that big, big, grandiose talk, it's sort of very empty. And it's, but it's very much almost like what they think people want. Because they're there. Think about it. They are trying to make a sale. The thing they're trying to get is your validation. This is also another random

thought I had, but do you think there's a correlation with narcissism and con artists? 100%. I think every con artist is a narcissist because think about it. What, what's a con? A con means you have no empathy for the other person. So you're willing to exploit, take advantage of them for your own needs. Lack of empathy with someone like that. You are going to get played, but there's no such thing as a con artist who's not a narcissist. Good to know. Okay. So question three, everyone listening, does your partner believe they are entitled to

special treatment in all areas of life to receive special treatment from businesses, service workers, friends, and life in general. Do they become angry when this special treatment is not accorded to them? Entitlement. Okay. Again, another absolutely cardinal core characteristic of narcissism. They really believe that they're special, no rules, their way, they shouldn't have to wait in line. Because when you think about it, entitlement is the sense of I am more special than anyone. And so when their entitlement gets blown, like a person says, hey, buddy, get back in line, they're really being, they're interpreting that and experiencing that as you're not special.

And if they're not special, then that inadequacy starts bubbling up and they feel a sense of shame. When a narcissistic person feels shame, that they then fly into a rage. And that's why when that person is told to get back in line, they'll often start screaming at the manager or person in charge, whoever told him to get into that line. That's the whole sequence that's happening. Because really what they're hearing is you're not special. You need to wait in line. And that, and what's, it's fascinating is entitled people that translates into hypocrisy. The rules apply to you, but they don't apply to me. That's a tough sell, but they really, really believe that they'll get their nose completely bent out of shape. I remember like I was flying once in one of those special clubs you can go into. And I was watching

the interaction at the door. And this person was like, there's someone that was trying to get in and they weren't, and they were rolling eyes and they get up to the person checking them in and say, can you believe that what these people try? Then this person who was trying to make that was actually trying to get all these extra family members in that he'd not paid for.

And he's like, and he starts throwing a fit. I'm a frequent flyer, la la la. So it's, he had no problem with the rule being enforced for the person ahead of him in line. But when the rule was being enforced for him, he flew into a rage. That's how entitlement works. And you can see how it makes a relationship all but impossible. Of course. And I thought it was very fascinating in your book, how you described like, what is a red flag you can look for? And you described like how do they treat on the first couple of dates like the people working in the restaurant? Like how do they treat people in the service industry?

That's like a very just like a sharp red flag to look for. OK, so last two. Does your partner need constant admiration and validation such as compliments awards and honors and do they seek it out for example through social media or constantly letting people know about their achievements right so that's the admiration and validation seeking again a core pillar of narcissism people who are narcissistic really are sort of dealing in something called narcissistic supply narcissistic supply is what they need from other people.

And that can be praise, compliments, making them look good, jumping when they yell at them, being a really attractive partner to them. But anything that gets that narcissistic person sort of attention and notice is supplied and works for them, feeds their emotional needs. People who devote themselves fully to the narcissist, every need narcissistic supply. And so because of that, they, they need that kind of validation and admiration constantly. I remember so well, I mean, it's, it's one of those days you remember where I was back in the, or like what, whenever these Facebook and all this came

out, probably 2006, 2007. And I remember someone saying, Hey, have you heard of this Facebook thing? I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. And they said, you should go look at this. And I will never forget that day because my heart sank. And the reason my heart sank was I said, I was telling the person, I said, this is a disaster. And they said, why? I said, do you realize that all these narcissistic people, that person said, what the heck is a narcissist? But all these narcissistic people used to actually have to get up out of bed, get out of the house, put themselves together to get their supply and their validation. I said, D you're telling me now that people can get their validation, just sitting at home, putting these pictures up. I said, this is going to be the

end of everything. And I remember, and my friend said, you are a pessimist. And, and that was going through my head. That was around 2006, 2007. And here we are in 2022. And it was far worse than I ever dreamed it would be. Because it became a way to mainline validation and admiration. If I put out enough pictures of my cool life, of my sexy life, of what I'm eating for dinner, people are going to say, you're so great. You're so cool.

We love you. We love you. We love you. It was like a heroin. It was like a drug for them. It's to get that amount of comments and likes. It's not natural to get that amount of validation in such a saturated amount of time. That's it's. And so I didn't even think about that for the narcissist. They quite literally don't even have to leave their house. So it became it's like any addiction. Now, then there was never enough. No single human being was ever going to be able to give them as much validation as posting a really attractive photo of themselves on on social media

and waiting for the validation to come in and so I think in some ways the crash and burn like people say did narcissists ever maintain relationships I said probably better before social media because once social media came there were so many other ways to get validation otherwise usually your partner was the only game in town and so you know how else were you going to get validation in any other systematic way so and now as you can get it everywhere and anywhere which is why a lot of narcissistic people are really shady on social media posting stuff that probably wouldn't be appropriate or self-aware of how it might affect a partner's feelings or anything like that, anything to get the hits and the likes.

But the validation, the admiration, that's how the narcissist regulates. As long as that's coming in enough, they feel safe and they feel comfortable. But if they're not getting enough validation and admiration, they really feel on edge. They feel almost like when you're really hungry, right? You get hangry. They get hang like when you're really hungry, right? You

get hangry. They get hangry when they don't get enough validation. The last one, because I think this is a pretty big one, is does your partner regularly project their feelings onto you? For example, accusing you of being angry at a time that they're yelling at you or accusing you of being inconsistent when their life is chaotic. So what we're talking about there is projection. And projection is what we call a primitive defense, which is a fancy way of saying is that it's something that happens. It's sort of one of those defenses we have from early life, like a child says, No, I didn't. That was you. And we're like, you did that little one, like you're the kid who did that. But a child does that to protect themselves. Now, when adults do it, what's happening is that there's something that feels, again, it harnesses,

it feels like a bad part of us. It's a forbidden part of us. And we don't like it. It's almost like imagine you have food in you. They're like, I don't like how this feels. I need to go get sick. Well, the psychological equivalent of getting sick is taking that forbidden part of you and accusing someone else of it. You are a liar. Alex, you're a liar. And I'm thinking you're the one who's lying, Romany. And, and then you're like, huh? And you look confused. But what I've done now is I have projected that unacceptable part of myself onto you. You're walking around saying, I didn't lie to you. And, and then I have now offloaded that thing. And I always say like one of the tells of a narcissist is if they accuse you of something

that is so patently untrue, you know, whatever it may be that you're doing something really bizarre, forbidden, they may be doing it themselves. And that's why they're accusing you of it because it's this forbidden thing they're engaging in and it doesn't feel good to them. Despite the way that a narcissist outwardly attempts to portray themselves, you mentioned that they are quite insecure. Is a narcissistic partner capable of love? That's the million dollar question, right? Because the challenge is this. I honestly think I love you may be the most damaging sentence in the English language. And I'll tell you why. Because it means such different things to different people. One person saying I love you

might be this deep, soul felt, almost spiritual love for someone. Another person saying I love you may be like, I love the way you make me look to everyone else, right? But we just say I love you, right? And whatever that means to us is subjective. And the subjectivity of I love you means that if a narcissist says they love you, they think they love you. But it's not your definition of love. One thing that rarely happens in a relationship is two people really sit down and compare their definitions of love. One thing that rarely happens in a relationship is two people really sit down and compare their definitions of love. But I actually don't even think that exercise would work for a narcissist. Narcissistic people fully understand what the right answer is. They don't live in that right answer, but they know the answer is like something deep and nice. And they're probably like, yeah, deep, nice, trusting, compassionate, got it, got it.

They know the right answer. And so they may give it to you. But the problem is, for them, love is a very, again, transactional emotion. What am I getting from this? Are you validating me? Does this relationship make me look good? Is it interesting? It's me. And narcissistic people are naturally what we call novelty seekers. This is why they get bored so quickly in relationships. They're good for like three, six, nine months. After that, they're getting the itch. And what that itch looks like for some of them, it may be another person. Sometimes it's something that's more interesting hanging out with their friends,

going on vacations with their friends, doing their hobby. It's not always just infidelity. It could just be that, eh, and now I got you locked and loaded. So I got you at home. I don't need to, I don't need to deal with you. Like I've got, it's almost like a thing you buy, like, oh, I own you now so I can put you up on a shelf. So they need constant stimulation. They need constant stimulation. They need constant new, they need things to be exciting. Like it's, they would do well living in a casino where there's lots of bells and noises and entertainment all the time but they need that all the time and nobody can provide that in real life in real life over time you got to pay the bills you got to vacuum the rugs you've got to do the boring icky stuff that is not always like the big night out and going to the club and and they so

they they're constantly seeking out that novelty and as as a result of that, they, in fact, there's a, there's a, there's researchers that call, I think it's, I think it's Keith Campbell called it the chocolate cake model of relationships. And he said, narcissistic relationships are chocolate cake. If chocolate cake was on a buffet next to salad, most people would gravitate to the chocolate cake and eat it and love it while they're eating it. And about an hour later, say, why did I eat that cake? I should have had that salad. The salad is sort of the agreeable, less sort of jazzy, snazzy, charismatic person. But after you eat the salad, you're like, that was good. And narcissistic relationships are really

fun in the beginning. And but the relationship satisfaction plummets as a relationship goes on. So relationship satisfaction in a narcissistic relationship drops off pretty quickly. What would happen to a narcissist if they're like forced to be alone? Would they become depressed? So the majority of narcissistic people would hate to be alone. In fact, we saw a lot of this during the pandemic. I know none of us liked being alone, but the narcissistic people lost their minds because they're so by and large, narcissism and extroversion are highly correlated,

right? So narcissistic people tend to want to be in. Why? Why would they want to be with other people? We're had to get more validation, right? That's where it is. So I want to discuss two terms that have recently become very popular regarding narcissism, which is gaslighting and love bombing. Yes. What is gaslighting? So gaslighting is a form of manipulation, emotional control, and frankly, emotional abuse.

It's very much a grooming process in which reality is denied. Okay. So in the simplest form, reality is denied. So it would literally be you saying, hey, Dr. Romney, look, the sky is blue. I'm like, no, it's not. The sky is denied. Okay. So in the simplest form, reality is denied. So it would literally be you saying, Hey, Dr. Romney, look, the sky is blue. I'm like, no, it's not. The sky is purple. You know, like, look, there's a helicopter. I'm like, no, that's a pterodactyl. And I'm steadfast. You're like, no, the sky is blue. I'm like, no, it's purple. And I'm not wavering. So what's more likely to happen is Alex might be like, maybe that sky is purple. Like maybe I need to get my eyes checked.

Maybe I have a problem, right? And I might double down at that point. And then step one of gaslighting is to deny reality. The second step of gaslighting is to tell you there's something wrong with you. Because now you're doubting yourself saying, you know, Alex, you need to get your eyes checked. Are you having some sort of color issue with seeing the sky?

But that's a silly example more likely it would be um you might say hey uh are you cheating on me i and i would say no i'm absolutely not you so you're telling that to a partner i'm not cheating on you i found something in your phone uh no that is a person i work with but my goodness what are you paranoid? Like, do you need to see a therapist? Because I'm starting to worry about you. And you know, cause this, this is crazy. Like Alex, you're crazy, you know? And I can't, I can't believe I'm in a relationship with a crazy person. So now Alex is defending herself against charges of crazy. So this is happening day after day, week after week, inside of three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, you're going to feel like you're absolutely insane, because they're

denying it and they're covering their tracks enough. It is the cruelest form of emotional abuse. And it is the narcissist ground game. Anybody can gaslight even people who are not narcissistic can gaslight, but it's what they do and why do they do it? It lets them keep control because not only do they get to hold the narrative, they get to hold reality. They get to tell you you're crazy. What is the best way to respond in an instance of gaslighting? So in an instance of gaslighting, such a great question. You have got to almost use the non gaslighted times to be clear on what reality is. And when somebody doubts reality, say, it's interesting you see it that way.

This is what's happening. Acknowledge your experience. Own your experience, right? And they'll say, you're insane. You're crazy. You're this, you're that. And saying, listen, this is where I don't, this is where I'm at. And this is what I'm feeling.

And it's valid. And I'm uncomfortable. And that's where we're at right now. Is there someone that the narcissist typically targets? Yes. So they target very empathic people, the narcissistic people, they love them. Some empathic people, why? Cause they know they can get away with a lot. So when that narcissistic person really sort of starts pushing up those red flags early in the relationship and that new person they're dating says, oh, no, I get it. I get it. You're in a really busy job. Right. Bing. And then it just escalates and then it continues. Yeah. What is love bombing? bombing is a series of behaviors that a person that usually a narcissistic person, but anyone could love bomb, but it's usually a narcissist ground game where they sort of overwhelm a new

person they're dating. Now this typically in the classical sort of look on love bombing, it is things like buying them lots of gifts, taking a person out to fancy dinners, elaborate dates, like let's go on a scavenger hunt. Lots of good morning, my princess, good afternoon, my princess, good night, my lady. It's constant. And it can seem really cool like that. My gosh, this person's so into me, especially for persons coming out of a relationship where they felt their last partner was inattentive. It could be five dozen roses showing up, roses showing up where you work, or like roses showing up at where you live,

or flowers coming almost every day. Now that's the classical kind of form of love bombing. Sometimes it's not so fancy. It's more of just that constant communication. I can't stop thinking about you. This is amazing. I've never met anyone like you. So it's like all these really intense

pronouncements that shouldn't be coming that fast. Love bombing can also be things moving quickly. You're in it for two, you spend the first week together, 24 seven, you move in with each other after three weeks, like things happen really, really fast. And it's all framed as this is a once in a lifetime love story. We got to go with this, right? And I'm like the fairy tale killer. I'm like, fast is bad because fast means all these things, the flowers, the dinners, the constant text. That means you're not noticing the red flags.

And when they come up, you justify them like, this person's only saying good morning. What's wrong with, I'm a monster. You know, you're thinking, I'm a bad person. But there's another riff on love bombing. And that's where people almost open up too much too fast. So the narcissist might sort of start telling you they're really, really elaborate, sad, sad story of their life. And you now start getting sucked in and feel like you cannot leave like I can't leave them. Like, oh my gosh, like this person's been through so much. And then when the red flags pop up, you feel like, ooh, can't do anything about this. And they're at the same time will say, tell me everything about

you. Like, tell me, Alex, what is your worst fear? What could be the most terrible thing that would ever happen to you? What are they getting? They're getting intel. They're getting collateral. Is that like trauma bonding? It's absolutely trauma bonding. And down the road, two months, three months, six months, that thing you're most afraid of, I can promise you it's going to start coming up. Now, if someone is freaking out, they're like, you know what? I feel like I could be dating a narcissist. If you're in a relationship with a narcissist, what are the common emotions that you may experience so here i'm going to start with something i've noticed over and over again a lot of people say

you know what it's not even a feeling it's not even a thought but i feel it in my body like this i kind of feel a little like pit in my stomach and the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up like i feel a little unsettled, but some people misread those as butterflies in their stomach, or I'm in something exciting. But beyond that, I would look for a sense of you're walking on eggshells. You're being very careful in what you say, because this person is so, is so reactive that if you ever say the wrong thing, that they get really, really kind of worked up. That's one thing. Another thing is that you start feeling sort of anxious with them. Like what's going to make them blow this

time? Who are they going to be rude to in the restaurant? Are they going to be say, crack some sort of inappropriate joke to the valet park or something like that? Because they seem to be so self-aware. You may also feel annoyed because they will yammer on about themselves. But as soon as you start talking about yourself, they'll be looking at their phone, looking out the window. And if you actually decide to say, hey, like, listen, I'm telling you something else. Oh, I'm sorry. I have ADHD. I'm like, homie, you didn't have ADHD for one hour. You telling me about your damn day. But now all of a sudden you have ADHD. How convenient. Right. Oh, that's, that must be infuriating. Cause I mean, I also remember you had written, you are constantly somehow feeling not good enough. But the reason

for not feeling good enough is that also that a person feels as though, why are we always arguing? We keep having the same argument. I, you know, it's got to be me. The reluctance to think, could it be this other person? This is why it's so important to me that people understand narcissism. Because when they understand it, I'm not saying you need to be mean to people and roll up to someone and say,

you're a narcissist and I hate you. But to say, you know what? This kind of personality style is not made for long-term sustained relationships and you ain't this person shrink. So get out of dodge, let them go get the help they need. And you cannot be this person's, again, the trauma bonded thing is where you become their personal assistant, their life coach, their chef, their cleaner,

their shrink, you're their everything. You're trying to be everything to them so you can be enough. There is no enough. And if a person grew up in a family where they felt like they were trying to be all things to their parents to get noticed you can see how they get sucked into this kind of relationship without even noticing it happening can couples i was gonna ask you no because i already know the answer i was gonna say can couples therapy successful if you are with a narcissistic partner no not only no it's a bad idea because a lot of couples therapists are interested in the health of the relationship and they're interested in some fundamentals communication and there's some basic assumptions you need to have trust respect all of that couples therapists typically won't hit it as this is the bad person and this is the good person in the

relationship right and not that they're bad person but like the less the more problematic person so there's the couples therapist is often really motivated to understand why are these things happening and what that ends up doing is often blaming the non-narcissistic person like, wow, you're anxious all the time. Do you ever think that maybe your anxiety is hard for your partner? No, that's a terrible thing to say. Because what that does is it totally amps up the narcissist who for the rest of your lives together will say, the therapist said you're anxious. That's why I'm like this. Therapist said you're anxious. You're driving me say, the therapist said you're anxious. That's why I'm like this. Therapist said you're anxious. You're driving me crazy. The therapist said you're anxious. That's why we have all these problems. So I always say to people,

unless you've got the best, most narcissistically trained couples therapists, which very, very, very, very, very few are, almost none, don't do this. And I personally, Alex, don't work with couples anymore because it was it was almost in some ways a I don't like taking people's money when there's nothing to be done and what happened it just doesn't work and it was too exhausting you were sort of you were trying to referee these these arguments that went nowhere so I got out of the couples game a long time I can only imagine as a therapist how it also would probably drive you insane we're like we have gotten nowhere but I need to stay so calm on this chair and just try to get through this freaking session.

Yeah, exactly. You can see it. You can see it. And really it is unethical for us to turn to the non-narcissistic. We can't, we're not supposed to call them on the down low and say, yo, you got to kick this person to the curb.

We are not, it's not, it's really a violation of ethically how to practice. So you're kind of just like stuck in a bind. You're stuck in a bind and you're trying in a million subtle ways. And then what happens is, the fact is, if the therapist pushes hard,

the narcissistic person's going to stop showing up. That's a fact. To me, that's not a loss. Because what happens then is once you get the narcissist out, you can often work individually with the remaining person with all the insight you had from the relationship. But it means you have to see that person clearly as narcissistic. And a lot of therapists aren't trained on seeing that. If you decide to leave your narcissistic

partner, will they easily let you leave? No, I recently did a couple of videos on YouTube on like, I'm breaking up with a narcissist. You lose either way. So if you break up with them, I actually think you breaking up with them is harder, because they're very vindictive. So they might stalk you, they will smear campaign you, they will tell other people bad things about you. They'll go post bad things on social media, they'll, you know, they'll do all kinds of things and they'll know how to just skirt that line of defamation. So you can't, there's really not much you can do legally. I mean, in really, really more severe cases, they will do things that are like contact

your employer and things like that. But, you know, by and large, they will make your life miserable. Again, very stocky, very punitive, very vindictive, really problematic. Some people find this to be a very frightening experience. In fact, that kind of abuse that happens after a breakup with a narcissist is sometimes termed post-separation abuse. It doesn't only happen with narcissists, but that like unrelenting focus on the person who broke up with them. It is scary. There's no two ways about it. Okay. do you find that people have been so manipulated by the narcissist that like they tend to go back or is do you usually

narcissists post breakup take it so far that the person is like this is crazy it's a great question alex it's a little of both so the thing the phenomenon you're talking about is hoovering the narcissist trying to suck the person back in if you broke up with the narcissist they're going to probably be more likely to want to pull you back in. So they, so either, so they could pull you back in and break up with you so they can walk around saying they did it, or to be able to control it or because they need your supply, whatever it may be. But they're definitely, their tendency is to be the one who, you know, if they, if you broke up with them and they have any, if they have any skin in the game, they're going to try to pull you back in.

Now, you may be wondering, well, why would a person go back in if someone behaved like this? Because of the trauma bond, that idea of still of of of associating the push pull and the breaking up and getting back together with love. In some ways, that roller coaster gets mistakenly equated with love. And people then keep sort of going back in almost trying to recreate it. Sometimes people take narcissists back, because they're like, well, I don't want the next person to get this better version of them. I'm like, better version, that version doesn't exist. It's going to look really good for the first couple weeks of dating, and then they will be experiencing the same abuse you did. That's exactly right. And it's hard to convince

people, especially trauma bond people of that. Now, if they break up with you, obviously you're holding the bag on a broken heart, right? Nobody likes being broken up with it. You might still believe in the relationship. You may still have the hope they can change again, the trauma-bonded cycle. And so when that happens, people will say, oh my gosh, I just went on social media. They're already out with this new person. They're saying, I found my one. Like, I'm not kidding you. Like two weeks out, people are saying they're looking at pictures of their narcissistic ex and is like, now I finally know what true love feels like.

And you're like, what the actual? We didn't even like fully break up yet. Some of my stuff is still at your house. Let's just say this person bizarrely went on and met the so-called love of your life, which you don't do in two weeks, folks. Okay. Kids don't try that at home. You do not find them in two weeks. And then you post this stuff in a public space, knowing that the person you hurt is going to see that that is narcissism. Yes. Simple. What are some practical steps that you can take when preparing to leave a narcissistic partner? So when you're preparing to leave, again,

I'm going to sort of put this, I'm going to cordon part of this off to the side. Obviously, this is an issue where there's true fears around physical aggression or violence. That's a whole different level. Okay. Let's bring it down though, off of that. And it's, it's not going to escalate to that level. You know, number one, I tell people, you've got to have your people around you who you, cause this person's going to really come hard at you and you need people you can talk to, will help you feel sane, help you feel safe. That could be friends. It could be family, could be a therapist, but you almost want to let people know like, this is what's coming. I'm going to need your support. I'm going to need your help. Number two, get off of social media because to hear those things being

said of you or about you or towards you, get a friend, give them your login, have them monitor it. If stuff is being said that's defamatory or problematic that could cause problems with work or other relationships, you know, work on a plan with that person. I even tell some people, maybe shut it down. Some people say it's my work. I get that. You know, ideally you have a work site and a personal site, but if you can't do that, have someone else monitor it. I've even known of people who've had people monitor their email inboxes who can go through and they'll know, they'll be like, oh my gosh, you know,lex has an important meeting at noon we are not showing her this email till two she doesn't need to see it but like you can protect the person from that and so you need people in place to help you with all that have realistic expectations this is what is going to

happen what you want to know is that these are vindictive people and vindictive people do vindictive things. I can also imagine like, I bet your family and friends know this is semi going on because why have you pulled away? And everyone always has that one person. Even if it's one person, you reach out and you say, I need you. Don't be embarrassed because people recognize already what's going on and we're waiting for this moment for you to hopefully come back to them and ask for help.

So I think that's also good to normalize. It's really hard, I bet, to reach out. Do not feel embarrassed and do not feel ashamed of anything. It's like you're about to begin the rest of your life. And so just take it one step at a time. And it goes to what you're also sort of laying out here. There's so much shame. Shame that you let yourself get isolated.

Shame that you got into a relationship that became this bleak. when there's shame people are often sort of embarrassed to reach out you know to me sunlight is the greatest disinfectant just putting your story out there and say i got into a relationship with someone who did they did and said these terrible things there is no shame in that it's happened to me i don't know if it's happened to you but i'm going to say maybe you know it's happened to people we love and care about. And so it's just part of, it's part of being a human being. But if you can un, like pull that shame piece out and say, I screwed up. I pulled away when I needed my friends.

And yet I kept getting, you know, I kept getting manipulated to my friends. Cause what narcissists often do is say, your friends don't have your back, your friends, you know, I was talking to your friend and she was talking smack about you. Like they'll triangulate and spread gossip to isolate you further. So that can really leave a person in a tough spot. You know, sometimes I'll even say to people like when you're, you know,

when you are stepping out, like you may have to go stay somewhere, somewhere else for a while. Like it could like, not even from a danger perspective, but from a, I need to chill perspective, because it is so overwhelming, but they do a lot of their harassment and their major texters, like they

will keep going and going and going at you. Some people say, well, I don't want to block them because I want to see what's being said in case I need to be concerned. Some people actually like that narcissist obsessive stuff to the degree you can block them and not have to look at that. It's the best thing you could do and save everything like save all the messages and everything because if things escalate to a place where it's causing you problems at work even where it's not even dangerous but it's getting to be a real problem that's the only thing a lawyer could work with if you needed to get some sort of you know protection order or something like that so one of the last topics aside from being in a romantic relationship with

a narcissistic partner, I do know a lot of my listeners have been writing in also wanting to know what is the impact of being raised by a narcissistic parent and the potential impact when you try to establish an intimate relationship in your adult life. So you're saying like you were raised by a narcissistic parent and how is that going to affect your ability to get into a healthy adult relationship? It's such a great question. And so the answer is simple and complicated. Having a narcissistic parent, it's a really rough path. Now, if you have a narcissistic parent and the other parent is present and loving and consistent, that definitely helps offset the effects, but not fully, because you're still likely as a child watching your healthy parents suffer with the nonsense and the emotional abuse that's coming from the narcissistic parent. So it's just a hard space

to be in. And unfortunately, a lot of people will either have two narcissistic parents or one narcissistic parent and one enabling parent, where the enabling parent is saying, well, you should listen to your father, you should listen. And they only have your best interest at heart. And you're thinking, oh my God. And so now you're like in a cult because everyone is, is acting in a way that's sort of abusive and negating, but you get through to adulthood. The one thing we know almost universally that people experience when they've had a narcissistic parent is anxiety. Become very, very, you're anxious because you never know, you don't know, you don't feel safe in relationships,

you don't feel comfortable, you're always worried about saying the wrong thing, you feel like you're not enough. So there's an anxiety people take into adulthood. Then there's the risk that you will sort of without, if you're not really mindful, that you will choose a partner that repeats those cycles you observed with the narcissistic parent as a place to work through that childhood relationship. Like, oh, you're not consciously saying, oh, you're just like my father. I'm going to date you so I could work through my messed up relationship with my father. No, it's an almost magnetic draw. People say, wow, this almost feel like I feel so connected. I can't describe it. I don't know what it is. But what it is, that magic, as it were, the chemistry is that they

do resemble that parent. And this time that that compulsion to want to work it through is you're like, this time, I'm going to get it right. This time, I'm going to win them over. Well, no, you're not a narcissistic father, narcissistic partner, it's all, it's same damn narcissistic cycle. So that's the real risk is that you will choose a partner. If they're not like the narcissistic parent, they'll continue to play into your existing narrative that I'm not enough. So that partner will play on the, I'm not enough narrative. And it's almost like they're reinforcing what you already believe about yourself. And even though it's a healthy thing, the puzzle pieces fit.

To what degree are narcissists in control of their actions? I would say they're in pretty darn good degree. They're in control of their actions because another example. So let's say you have a narcissistic friend or a narcissistic partner, maybe even a family member. You're at a party. They're charming and they're charismatic and they're the center of attention. And then you get in the car and they rage at you and nobody's around anymore because you're in the car alone with them. You're like, wait a minute, what happened to charm and charisma person? And a lot of people immediately blame themselves. They're thinking, well, they were so great for everyone else. So what is it about me?

They're putting on a show to get validation, right? So when there's no longer that need for validation, cause they already got you trapped in that relationship or whatever. There's no reason to have it, have that mask on anymore. And so they can then go off on you in the car that's a choice because they could have if they really if they were really this is out of control and they couldn't help it they'd be raging and being mean to those people in the party right oh that's like a kind of scary dynamic this is not was not my next question but i just made me think of like has anyone ever done a study on narcissists like Like, are they smart? Like, is their IQ usually high? You know, it's not a, it's not a slam dunk. I do think there's some weak correlations between narcissism and intelligence,

but I think it's because they want to be in possession of qualities that make them look good and being smart makes a person look good. Right. But one of the, I'm so glad you asked that question though, because what's so interesting about it, Alex, is that the number of people who will say, well, I don't know, I really like them and they're like, they're a jerk and they're so mean and they don't have empathy. And they're really smart. Like how bad can they be? I don't know why people think smart is a get out of jail free card. Like smart doesn't mean anything. Like smart is smart. Right. But why is that a virtue?

I'd say you want to surround yourself with agreeable, empathic people. Some of them happen to be smart too. Well, then fantastic. But in the long term, I think we really give a free pass to people who are smart. Thinking like, well, they're smart. So what? They get away with stuff. If someone is listening to this episode and feels a little panicked of, oh, no.

Yes, I'm thinking I'm dating a narcissist right now. They're sitting in their bed. He's across the room. What is the first step you would just say to take in beginning the next step of moving forward and trying to handle this? OK, first of all, breathe, breathe in. OK, and number two, promise me you will not, not ever, ever confront them and say, yo, I just listened to Alex's

podcast and I think you're a narcissist. Do not do that. Do not do that. Absolutely not. You do not want to do that. One thing I tell people, and I almost, I liken it to almost like throwing the Hail Mary pass or kind of going into the cave for a minute. If you suspect that these are the patterns, test them out a little. Are you seeing empathy? What does this entitlement look like? Allow yourself to call things by their name and catch yourself in the justification saying

almost like journal it out. Like they did this and I justified it this, or they did this and that was nice. And then like journal out for a while. I'd say spend a week or two, like laying it out. If you're at all unsure about all this, the patterns will show themselves. And then you have to ask yourself, knowing that this isn't going to change, what do you want to do? If this is just dating and you're not that deep in, you're not married kids, exiting out is quite possible. Yeah, you might have to deal with the sort of stocky vindictive moment, but then that's only going to reinforce your drive to leave, right? Assuming it's safe and all of that. But the deeper in you are, the hardest it's going to be. For example, are you

engaged? I mean, listen, rings can be returned and invitations can be sent back. So it's, you know, but if you're married and you have kids, that's a whole different game. But that idea of if you recognize it, sort of punch it out a little bit, like see what it feels like, journal it out, spend some time with it, pay attention to those patterns of justification, ask yourself how often you blame yourself for the problems in this relationship, journal, journal, journal. And then if it's starting to see that these patterns are lining up, and then in another thing you could even do is ask friends you trust, like, hey, what do you think about how he treats me? Like what we and I want you to give me an honest answer, because I'm having a moment, honest friends might say not in love with it, but didn't want to hurt you. Because let's face it, friends are often in a catch 22. If they tell

you, I think this person sucks, they may kind of lose you because they feel like they've burned that bridge. If they tell you, I think they're wonderful and they're not, then they feel guilty or that they're gaslighting you too. So you ask the honest question, but let them know, I'm worried that there's an issue. Will you let me know the patterns that you're seeing too? If you have those good, honest people in your life,

hopefully they'll say, you you know I have not loved this or I've not loved that you might get some honesty if you give the preface that um you know I'm not thrilled about it either could you keep be real with me I won't be mad at you that is such good advice because I'm sure so many people listening have had those moments where like I want to be a good friend but she hasn't asked me there will be a moment sometimes when the friend comes and is so open to hearing it and in those moments like how to be a really good friend is to be honest but also obviously to make sure you're doing it in a loving way and you're providing the information and not like a very aggressive like oh yeah he's yeah yeah like calmly and say like I said I have been concerned because I saw how he'd talk over you,

or I felt like you would plan these things and he wouldn't show up or whatever it is that's showing the lack of empathy or the entitlement or even shady behavior. People don't understand that some of the great the greatest anti narcissistic and anti gaslighting strategies is simply us stepping up for another person and saying, even if we do it aside later, say, I saw what happened. And I felt like you were being gaslighted. And I wanted to make sure you're okay. I can't tell you how many people said just one person coming up to them, and being open with them saved them, because they thought I thought that was happening. But I don't trust myself enough to believe that just having that third party is enough to snap it. And that's what

actually happened in the old movie Gaslight. It took a third party is enough to snap it and that's what actually happened in the old movie gaslight it took a third party to break her out and that's what ended up saving her okay let's all go watch that movie now yes you must um i cannot thank you enough for coming on thank you truly like it's so hard to articulate what a narcissist and like what they can do to someone is without obviously you are a professional you know what you're talking about and we can read things online and you can even talk to people about it but like sitting down with you today was so helpful and i i truly believe this episode is going to help so many men and women so thank you thank you thank you so much much